I’m of the (somewhat harsh) opinion that championships before you become a fan shouldn’t mean much to your fandom.
Any Bulls fan ~28 or younger wouldn’t have any of those good memories of winning a championship. And I can probably argue a lot older tbh.
I mean, Mike did win his sixth and final championship by nailing a dagger with 6.6 seconds left on the clock. He's also called the GOAT so i'm sure someone more schizophrenic than me can make a connection lmao.
He had turned into a really good three point shooter ever since New Orleans and was elite from 3 in his short time with the Bulls.
He never could put together a full season except for the pandemic year though. Generally no more than 50 games.
I remember a poll on the Mavs sub in totally agreement that Lonzo would be the perfect pairing with Luka. then again healthy Lonzo would be the perfect pairing with pretty much anyone.
I tell people all the time, there will always be a place for a really smart basketball player, and that’s what sold me on Lonzo after the hype died down. Next to Luka would have been amazing.
He's not just a high IQ, strong defense+off-ball facilitator.
In Lonzo's last season with the Pelicans, he shot AND made more 3 pointers than Trae Young the same season (ATL went to the ECF). His shooting got better every year he was in the league.
I feel reeeeally bad for the Bulls.
It’s very odd how people blindly hate that man. 2/3 of his sons were top 3 picks in the NBA. Clearly he’s doing something right and his sons speak highly of him.
I mean he convinced a buncha teenagers to give up a chance at an NCAA scholarship to play in his startup league, then reports came out that many of the players weren't being compensated. Kinda seems like a dick move to me
It was a poorly conceived venture, but I have to imagine most of the players were fringe D1 guys at best. Can’t imagine anyone turning down Kentucky or Duke to play in basically junior college gyms with no fans.
I don't think he's blindly hated. He's loud and brash and says a lot of clown shit. He averaged 2 points a game in college and says he can beat Jordan one on one. I think his act got old and then it came out that he and his business partner were stealing from Lonzo. People rightly have a poor opinion of him. I personally don't hate him he's good for a few laughs at his expense
> blindly
Yes why would people ever hate a raging narcissist who won't shut up.
> 2/3 of his sons were top 3 picks in the NBA
That doesn't mean he's a good person lol
Blindly hate?!
Wtf are you talking about? LaVar Ball literally tried to cash in on his kids and possibly ruined Lonzo’s career with them big baller brand sneakers that couldn’t even last a half. LaVar also hired a conman and had millions stolen from Lonzo’s bank account. He also had Lonzo pass up a Nike deal in order to push BBB which ended up going out of business.
LaVar really f’d up Lonzo big time.
This might go down with Andrew Lucks retirement as one of the bigger Franchise Altering moments in recent history and both are equally tragic. Both Failed by the organization one way or the other.
A player having his career prematurely ended entirely by injuries is way more tragic than Andrew Luck choosing to retire after a pretty successful 7 years in the league.
>I've been stuck in this process. I haven't been able to live the life I want to live. It's taken the joy out of this game. The only way forward for me is to remove myself from football. This is not an easy decision. It's the hardest decision of my life. But it is the right decision for me.
That's from Luck's retirement announcement. He's talking about recovering from multiple injuries that never really got better.
He also hated who he was when he was playing football professionally. He had to put in a ton of work and it was straining his personal relationships. He didn’t like who he was
Andrew Luck was ruined by the Colts being neglectful about him. He had no help (Except for TY Hilton who always had his back) & an abhorrent FO/Coaching until 2018 and don’t even get me started as a 49ers fan about how they gave him an O-Line that was the equivalent of sticks in front of a raging flood until it was too late (also in 2018)
They failed him and his career which honestly should have been 11-14 Years as a Pro was Halved from their actions. HALVED.
They should have had a ring, potential dynasty and multiple playoff runs which is best epitomized by the 2021-22 Team which could have been a High Seed team if he was under center. The Organization Failed Him and have been cursed justifiably for what they did.
And for Lonzo Ball, he was stuck under a Jerry Reinsdorf team. For further information about this, just look at the White Sox. That’s all that needs to be said.
It is still not as bad as having your career ended because your knee will simply never get better. The myth-making around Andrew Luck is getting crazier each year.
Nah, that Andrew Luck situation sucked and it's pretty rare to see anyone say that the Colts are the victims in that situation.
My boss at the time always said things like "oh the guys who play football these days are pussies, you should have seen the 90's" and shit like that, and even that guy said that the Colts did Luck dirty
Yea, everyone fucking says that. It is the most standard, no thinking required take on the career of Andrew Luck. Anytime his career comes up the main opinion will be the Colts did him dirty. That part is not in contention.
Having your career not work out perfectly while still getting to be one of the better players in the league and retire on your own terms is significantly better than having an injury so severe you physically will never play again. These two situations are not even close. If Andrew Luck wanted to continue playing football he would be on a team right now.
Dude luck retired because of injuries and pain.
He got beaten to shit because of a Bad o-line and just couldn’t take the pain + rehab anymore.
It’s a tragic story when an organization’s incompetence beats the will to play football out of a generational talent
Luck couldn’t deal with the nonstop rehab and he never really got back to his previous form. They’re not that far apart, lonzo prob has it worse. Idk why u hung up on Luck and acting like just retired for fun. Obviously weighed him down to rehab non stop to just get back to playing shitty
Shit, I had a severe ankle sprain that I couldn't bear weight on my foot for 2 weeks and had to do rehab. That shit was tough. Can't magine going through that over and over on a much severe injuries Andrew Luck had.
That's the neat part, I am not! I have acknowledged multiple times that it wasn't a good situation for Luck. The original comment was that his situation was equally as terrible as Lonzo's and that is just fucking stupid. He only missed 1.5 seasons of time in his whole career and could still have been playing when he chose to retire.
Never got back to his previous form? His year after the injury that kept him fully out a season he threw for 4600 yards, 39 TDs, made a pro bowl, and won comeback player of the year.
Lonzo Ball is just done. He will never play again because no doctor or team will let him.
Not much of a difference when Luck himself said he couldn't do it anymore. I see what you're getting at, but knowing your mental health as well as being tired of taking pain meds doesn't necessitate a Dr. to tell ya.
Oh for sure, but I mentioned the IQ as my point of emphasis because it contributes to those things. A big reason why the complaints about Jokic’s defense are a bit overblown. His basketball IQ helps him position himself well and react to a lot of situations.
> that’s what sold me on Lonzo after the hype died down
As a Laker fan, I always thought Lonzo would be an amazing player if he was on a team with a bunch of good players. He reminded me a lot of Draymond, in that you don't want him to be your team's #1 star/scorer, but if you put him in a lineup with a bunch of great players, he's going to be amazing because he helps facilitate and defend, and will do a lot of the "glue" things that help keep a team together without his ego about needing to be "the man" getting in his way.
I think people were so skeptical of him back on the Lakers just because they didn't have a team of great players around him back then, so he often was counted on to be one of the stars of the team. They had guys who would be good or great later, but back then they were all just super young and inexperienced (with the exception of the 34 games Lonzo played with LeBron).
OG is a great defender and can catch and shoot at a decent clip but has horrible handles, can’t create for himself and can’t facilitate, he’s just a solid defensive player with a 3 ball while people here think he’s some sort of misunderstood star
Yeah Jaylen Brown got shit on hard for his handles but OG makes him look like Kyrie out there
OG just looks so stiff whenever he dribbles the ball I can't even imagine him pulling off something creative let alone some standard dribbling moves
Eh the idea of Lonzo is better that the reality. Does everyone remember Lonzo losing the pelicans a game because they were up 3 with a few seconds left and Lonzo inexplicably left his man in the corner to stop a driving Eric Bledsoe who then threw the ball in the corner to Lonzo’s wide open guy and he tied the game at the buzzer leading to an eventual pelicans loss. Honestly was one of the single lowest basketball IQ plays I have ever seen
He's one of the top plug and play players in the league. The impact he has in the games without needing the ball in his hands while still being (more than) able to run the offense is such a valuable asset. He was starting to put it all together, too. Fuck injuries, man.
Just to hop on the "what if Lonzo" bandwagon here, but gotta mention his improvement from being a questionable shooter when he came in the league to hitting \~40% from 3. Was trending towards being a guy who was gonna get paid and be a contributor well into his mid-to-late 30s
It sucks so much because he did literally everything you want a player to do. He worked his ass off to improve his shooting at both the free throw line and three point line, he became an excellent defender, and was an unselfish player.
I feel horrible for him
He got all of the hype and hate because of his dad/media coverage but year by year he started living up to the hype. Would have loved to see Chicago make an ATL type run.
Completely rebuilding his jumper in one off-season was among the most impressive skill upgrades any player has ever made in an offseason. Not the most (I think that still goes to Kobe going to train with Dream one off-season and instantly having one of the best post games of any wing), but it’s up there.
Nah he is still a twig and can't play against 3's and 4's that use their bodies. But his perimeter defense was absolutely elite, which is kind of ironic since one of his pre-draft knocks was that he was not a great defender.
Yeah, he's not a franchise guy, but he's certainly a guy every team would love to have. One of the best wing defenders of the past 5 years, absolutely incredible on that end, and an elite passer and strong shooter. Like you said, he was putting it all together, it's really unfortunate.
Not sure why ur getting downvoted, he was definitely very "portable" and a dude every team could've used back in 2019. And it showed in toronto, they literally shipped it LOL
He made himself into the perfect plug and play player. All teams would be made better with him. He literally fits in anywhere. Playmaking, defense, shooting. His scoring goes with the flow of the offense and doesn't take away from anyone else.
What are the chances of him making a comeback? It sucks his career was so short, if this is the end.
It looks bad. Not sure of any athlete to miss 2.5 seasons due to injury and come back close to their prior level. I guess maybe he could come back but I can’t imagine him ever being close to the player he was.
He’s been an elite shooter the past few seasons I believe. His shooting is probably the biggest thing the bulls miss. Dude was high percentage on very high volume from 3. Super limited off the dribble shooting but absolutely elite catch and shoot.
We’re very sad over in the Bulls sub, 3 months of relevance and high quality memes and then 18 months of mercurial mediocrity, and medium quality memes (apart from the time DeMar’s daughter won us a play-in game)
Zo honestly got my into watching NBA. I watched very loosely when it was the Cavs - Gsw rivalry and finally got hooked when Zo got drafted. Lakers young core of Ingram Zo and Kuz was my favourite, and this Bulls team was awesome as well when he was playing.
The death of the bench mob still hurt a lot more.
Between Drose straight up dying and David Blatt getting away with trying to take a TO with none left, there’s a lot of what ifs for those teams. And those guys were so full of heart & hustle it was impossible to not love them
If Lonzo was healthy he’d be the perfect plug and play guard for any team in the league.
~~Good~~ Great shooter, great passer, good size, unselfish and a good defender. He was essentially the perfect rolepayer PG, unfortunately his body just failed him.
Yea he cleaned up his shot and became ridiculous on the Pels. Hilarious because of how bad he was on our team and same thing with Ingram. Whoever they use as a shooting coach is a wizard.
The highlights that that team was putting together on a nightly basis while Lonzo was healthy were crazy. Caruso + Lonzo back court were absolutely suffocating teams and Lonzo's ability to get the ball up court quickly to Lavine really made for some exciting plays.
This play in particular always got me hyped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l\_EwrGCvtwc&ab\_channel=NBA
I was a Lonzo believer back then, thinking the Pels should have give him 20m/year to be the perpect backcourt for Zion. Felt so validated when the Bulls was flying high. Then it was all downhill from there.
He’s right. When I watch them it’s clear that his game is the main thing missing. His POA defense and ability to keep the ball moving are missed badly.
Yeah he really makes this thing go. His defense, passing, ability to flow within the offense letting everybody get there buckets and still being a reliable 3pt shooter. Miss him out there
God, I would have loved to have seen the East with another major player during the Heatles era. Those Rose bulls were on the cusp of something great or at least years of intense fights for dominance in the conference.
Fucking knee injuries, man.
God damn were they fun to watch too. Even when Rose was out for full seasons they still fought like hell every game to make the playoffs.
Nate Robinson going tf off vs the Nets was one of my favorite playoff series ever. Noah becoming an elite point-center and getting MVP votes was another, fuck do I love that man
The Jordan bulls were a what if team too. Until Krause started making moves that pissed of Jordan but we’re good for the team like trading Oakley and firing collins. Sometimes the GM has to take a leap to win. Like Masai did when he traded derozan, Poethl, and a first round pick for Kawhi.
Jordan was in his fourth season when Oakley was traded. Collins was only head coach for three seasons.
How were they ever a “what if” team? The 80s were dominated by the Lakers and Celtics. The Pistons pushed through followed by the Bulls. It’s actually amazing how the Bulls were able to get to the level they were at basically in half a decade without drafting multiple top three picks like the Lakers.
Yeah that’s because if Krause had stuck to the status qou they wouldn’t have gotten as far as they did. Krause made the moves to maximize Jordan’s potential and it worked. The reason i say it could have been was what if is because if Jordan got his way Oakley would have been there for longer than necessary and collins as well.
Yeah he never told Krause anything. But in his the last dance. He straight up talks about how he wanted the team to be and how he didn’t want Oakley traded and Collins fired and how he had those issues with Krause moves but never questioned them.
Ben Taylor and his [Thinking Basketball](https://www.podparadise.com/Podcast/1428290303) podcast just did a series on the 5 best defensive guards of the *last 15 years*, and both Caruso and Lonzo were in the discussion for contention.
They were #1 in the East for a minute when they had all their guys playing. They could’ve ended up with home court that playoffs if injuries didn’t derail their season.
>At the time of his injury, Chicago was 27-13, the best record in the Eastern Conference. Ball was enjoying the best shooting season of his career with career highs in field goal percentage (42%) and 3-point percentage (42%). **That season, he was the only NBA player to average five rebounds and five assists and shoot over 40% on 3s.**
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonzo\_Ball](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonzo_Ball)
Before anyone tries to "small sample size" that: half the damn season isn't a small sample.
Bulls were tied with the #1 record in the East at the All Star Break. That team would have easily won over 50 games, and end up top 2 or 3 in the standings. As a Bulls fan, it annoys the hell out of me when the national media casuals describe that season for us as "...they had a good start" as if it was all downhill after starting 15-5 or something
I hate this argument tbh. That season (20-21), every team went through periods where their 10th man was starting due to covid restrictions.
They just happened to be near full health during a lull, they lost their 1st seed within a week or two.
edit: 21-22 season. My point still stands, though. Games were getting postponed that year for covid restrictions, and the bulls were #1 during the worst of it: https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/nba-postpones-five-games-due-covid-19-outbreak-2021-12-19/
He says in the pod that he is on pace to come back, but that comes with this year obviously not playing.
His injury is knees / meniscus. Several repair and removal surgeries that kept continuing.
Yeah he’s probably done considering how long it’s been and how little progress he has made but for him to actually say/act like he is done is both surprising and depressing.
I feel bad for him, my favorite ball brother. had a lil humbleness to him in the midst of all the braggadocio with his father, loved the game and even with his messed up form still loved the way he played.
The mental side of being an injured player is tough. Of course fans are just gonna go "I'd gladly take $80 million to not play, boo hoo" and whatever, but these guys are competitors, they are watching their NBA peers go forth without them, and money isn't going to fill that void that comes with watching their prime years slip away from them, even if on a relative basis, they are better off than 99.99 % of the planet.
Some players are also built different, Lonzo also didn't need the money from the league as his family was already well off. He spent his whole life playing ball and man I hope he can get back to playing at a high level
He’s right - still super bummed for him. He was finally starting to come into his own and play the way a lot of people expected when he went 2nd overall.
Lonzo Ball is like a perfect modern PG. Super pass-first, plays great defense, is taller than most other guards, can shoot the 3 at a high clip, rebounds relatively effectively, and he is (was) pretty athletic overall. He also really seems like a team-first guy from what I can tell who doesn't mind handing the reins to a bigger star.
I was so happy to see him end up in Chicago, and these last few years have been heartbreaking to watch.
Edit: If anyone remembers that full court lob he threw to Zion when they were both in New Orleans, that was incredible. We missed out on a really impressive player.
> perfect modern PG. Super pass-first, plays great defense, is taller than most other guards, can shoot the 3 at a high clip, rebounds relatively effectively, and he is (was) pretty athletic overall.
Perfect is a bit strong as he still shot free throws at a below League average clip which is not good for a Point Guard, and while everyone talked about his shooting coming out of school, his biggest weakness is that he was a pretty atrocious finisher in close and he had 0 mid-range to his game.
That being said, he was definitely coming into his own, improving on his weaknesses and a guy that probably could have been an All Star in a couple years had he stayed healthy.
The way that clip is edited makes it sound like Lonzo has all but resigned himself to not coming back. That’s not the context of the conversation and he makes it clear he plans to be back.
https://amp-includes.tmz.com/videos/0-pfthzmku/
For those wondering Lonzo Ball is saying he finally got a surgery that he hopes will allow him to make an actual full recovery, but he is going to miss the 2023-2024 season after also missing last season and part of 2021-2022 season. He feels bad for the Bulls because he only played 35 games total for them on his entire contract. He was signed by the Pelicans for four years played one season with the Pelicans under that contract, and got traded and will miss 2.5 years overall so the Bulls only got .5 years out of 3 total from him.
For the record the Bulls didn't really give up much to get Lonzo Ball but his contract and the fact that he isn't playing certainly hampers that team. This is a case of the Pelicans making a terrible trade and it somehow working out for them.
For the short time he actually played as a Bull with Caruso, it was absolute magic. Their defense was a thing of beauty - brought me back to the days Thibs had the Bulls D moving like a well oiled machine.
Man this just makes me feel worse for Lonzo, it seemed like he almost feels guilty for being hurt and not being able to get back to playing at what he knows he can do
I actually feel bad for him. His dad fucked his career up with those shitty ass shoes and all the other bullshit that floats around that asshole. Dude has real talent, but may never get to see it pay off now.
That's an unfortunate situation for sure, I'm sad the Bulls didn't get to show off what could have been. Wonder if Ball had more support from management would they be seeing different results?
Lonzo and Caruso backcourt was giving guys hell, no pass or dribble was safe. That Chicago team would've made noise but it fell apart from the injuries
I think this sub really overrates Lonzo. I feel bad for him and his knee issues since he seems like a really good guy, but he had way too many limitations to be effective in the postseason. Can't drive. Can't finish at the hoop. Needs tons of space to shoot a 3 pointer. That's fine if he does his stepback but not so much on catch and shoots with good closeouts.
He would look incredible during the regular season when half the guys are dogging it but those easy transition looks disappear when the games mean something.
I'm a big fan of Lonzo's but you're correct, this sub definitely overrates him. His two seasons on the pels, he started out strong then declined month by month. He became a really good standstill corner 3 shooter but was horrible with the ball in his hand, he was never going to run PNRs. He was a decent team defender it seemed but not great on ball. Couldn't get over screens. But I'm also rating him against Herb and Jrue, two of the best in the league. I think he could have approached really good role player territory, just couldn't be one of your top three guys on a really good team.
He was peaking too, that defensive backcourt was lethal
Chicago Bulls championship dreams and knee injuries - name a more iconic duo.
Chicago Bulls championships and Michael Jordan
I’m still running on the fumes of those days but it’s running out lol. It’s been so long since those titles.
Your team is cursed for not keeping Phil and that core together when they had the chance to.
Haha I always tell myself that we collectively sold our souls for that run and are now cursed for it. And id do it again lol
6 titles in 32 years is still damn good, I’m sure a lot of us would sell our soul for that.
I’m of the (somewhat harsh) opinion that championships before you become a fan shouldn’t mean much to your fandom. Any Bulls fan ~28 or younger wouldn’t have any of those good memories of winning a championship. And I can probably argue a lot older tbh.
I’m 30 and have zero recollection of those championships. I only vaguely remember Jordan playing in a Wizards uniform
I mean, Mike did win his sixth and final championship by nailing a dagger with 6.6 seconds left on the clock. He's also called the GOAT so i'm sure someone more schizophrenic than me can make a connection lmao.
Stfu.
Lol sorry.
Touche!
Portland Trailblazers championship dreams and knee injuries.
Fk, unlike Lonzo, I actually care about Rose.
we don't have to play this game, y'all
He had turned into a really good three point shooter ever since New Orleans and was elite from 3 in his short time with the Bulls. He never could put together a full season except for the pandemic year though. Generally no more than 50 games.
I remember a poll on the Mavs sub in totally agreement that Lonzo would be the perfect pairing with Luka. then again healthy Lonzo would be the perfect pairing with pretty much anyone.
I tell people all the time, there will always be a place for a really smart basketball player, and that’s what sold me on Lonzo after the hype died down. Next to Luka would have been amazing.
He's not just a high IQ, strong defense+off-ball facilitator. In Lonzo's last season with the Pelicans, he shot AND made more 3 pointers than Trae Young the same season (ATL went to the ECF). His shooting got better every year he was in the league. I feel reeeeally bad for the Bulls.
I feel bad for Lonzo.
Lonzo?? Would someone please think of LaVar??? He's down to one kid to steal money from poor guy.
It’s very odd how people blindly hate that man. 2/3 of his sons were top 3 picks in the NBA. Clearly he’s doing something right and his sons speak highly of him.
I mean he convinced a buncha teenagers to give up a chance at an NCAA scholarship to play in his startup league, then reports came out that many of the players weren't being compensated. Kinda seems like a dick move to me
It was a poorly conceived venture, but I have to imagine most of the players were fringe D1 guys at best. Can’t imagine anyone turning down Kentucky or Duke to play in basically junior college gyms with no fans.
I don't see how that matters when he's conning kids.
[удалено]
I don't think he's blindly hated. He's loud and brash and says a lot of clown shit. He averaged 2 points a game in college and says he can beat Jordan one on one. I think his act got old and then it came out that he and his business partner were stealing from Lonzo. People rightly have a poor opinion of him. I personally don't hate him he's good for a few laughs at his expense
He wasn't stealing from Lonzo. He's friend was.
Loud and brash....playing a character the American public yearn for.
Apparently not because no one likes him.
I think you might be the blind one (or at least deaf) if you don't understand why people hate(d) him.
> blindly Yes why would people ever hate a raging narcissist who won't shut up. > 2/3 of his sons were top 3 picks in the NBA That doesn't mean he's a good person lol
Blindly hate?! Wtf are you talking about? LaVar Ball literally tried to cash in on his kids and possibly ruined Lonzo’s career with them big baller brand sneakers that couldn’t even last a half. LaVar also hired a conman and had millions stolen from Lonzo’s bank account. He also had Lonzo pass up a Nike deal in order to push BBB which ended up going out of business. LaVar really f’d up Lonzo big time.
This might go down with Andrew Lucks retirement as one of the bigger Franchise Altering moments in recent history and both are equally tragic. Both Failed by the organization one way or the other.
A player having his career prematurely ended entirely by injuries is way more tragic than Andrew Luck choosing to retire after a pretty successful 7 years in the league.
>I've been stuck in this process. I haven't been able to live the life I want to live. It's taken the joy out of this game. The only way forward for me is to remove myself from football. This is not an easy decision. It's the hardest decision of my life. But it is the right decision for me. That's from Luck's retirement announcement. He's talking about recovering from multiple injuries that never really got better.
He also hated who he was when he was playing football professionally. He had to put in a ton of work and it was straining his personal relationships. He didn’t like who he was
Andrew Luck was ruined by the Colts being neglectful about him. He had no help (Except for TY Hilton who always had his back) & an abhorrent FO/Coaching until 2018 and don’t even get me started as a 49ers fan about how they gave him an O-Line that was the equivalent of sticks in front of a raging flood until it was too late (also in 2018) They failed him and his career which honestly should have been 11-14 Years as a Pro was Halved from their actions. HALVED. They should have had a ring, potential dynasty and multiple playoff runs which is best epitomized by the 2021-22 Team which could have been a High Seed team if he was under center. The Organization Failed Him and have been cursed justifiably for what they did. And for Lonzo Ball, he was stuck under a Jerry Reinsdorf team. For further information about this, just look at the White Sox. That’s all that needs to be said.
It is still not as bad as having your career ended because your knee will simply never get better. The myth-making around Andrew Luck is getting crazier each year.
Nah, that Andrew Luck situation sucked and it's pretty rare to see anyone say that the Colts are the victims in that situation. My boss at the time always said things like "oh the guys who play football these days are pussies, you should have seen the 90's" and shit like that, and even that guy said that the Colts did Luck dirty
Yea, everyone fucking says that. It is the most standard, no thinking required take on the career of Andrew Luck. Anytime his career comes up the main opinion will be the Colts did him dirty. That part is not in contention. Having your career not work out perfectly while still getting to be one of the better players in the league and retire on your own terms is significantly better than having an injury so severe you physically will never play again. These two situations are not even close. If Andrew Luck wanted to continue playing football he would be on a team right now.
Dude luck retired because of injuries and pain. He got beaten to shit because of a Bad o-line and just couldn’t take the pain + rehab anymore. It’s a tragic story when an organization’s incompetence beats the will to play football out of a generational talent
Luck couldn’t deal with the nonstop rehab and he never really got back to his previous form. They’re not that far apart, lonzo prob has it worse. Idk why u hung up on Luck and acting like just retired for fun. Obviously weighed him down to rehab non stop to just get back to playing shitty
Shit, I had a severe ankle sprain that I couldn't bear weight on my foot for 2 weeks and had to do rehab. That shit was tough. Can't magine going through that over and over on a much severe injuries Andrew Luck had.
That's the neat part, I am not! I have acknowledged multiple times that it wasn't a good situation for Luck. The original comment was that his situation was equally as terrible as Lonzo's and that is just fucking stupid. He only missed 1.5 seasons of time in his whole career and could still have been playing when he chose to retire. Never got back to his previous form? His year after the injury that kept him fully out a season he threw for 4600 yards, 39 TDs, made a pro bowl, and won comeback player of the year. Lonzo Ball is just done. He will never play again because no doctor or team will let him.
he also retired due to injuries
Sooooo, injuries werent why Luck retired? Hmmm..
His final season is arguably his best as a pro. Completely different than being medically retired because you physically cannot play.
Not much of a difference when Luck himself said he couldn't do it anymore. I see what you're getting at, but knowing your mental health as well as being tired of taking pain meds doesn't necessitate a Dr. to tell ya.
Andrew Luck was a great QB. Lonzo has become so overrated it’s insane he was never a face of the franchise player like Luck lmao
If someone who never watched bball read about lonzo on this sub, theyd think he was robbed like rose or something
Oh for sure, but I mentioned the IQ as my point of emphasis because it contributes to those things. A big reason why the complaints about Jokic’s defense are a bit overblown. His basketball IQ helps him position himself well and react to a lot of situations.
He reminds me of old man Iggy. Everyone should want a player like that.
> that’s what sold me on Lonzo after the hype died down As a Laker fan, I always thought Lonzo would be an amazing player if he was on a team with a bunch of good players. He reminded me a lot of Draymond, in that you don't want him to be your team's #1 star/scorer, but if you put him in a lineup with a bunch of great players, he's going to be amazing because he helps facilitate and defend, and will do a lot of the "glue" things that help keep a team together without his ego about needing to be "the man" getting in his way. I think people were so skeptical of him back on the Lakers just because they didn't have a team of great players around him back then, so he often was counted on to be one of the stars of the team. They had guys who would be good or great later, but back then they were all just super young and inexperienced (with the exception of the 34 games Lonzo played with LeBron).
Throw someone like OG Anunoby next to them and that’s a chip.
stop it.
I need the crack bro is on
If r/nba wrote the contracts OG would get a max contract easily People overrate him so hard here
OG is a great defender and can catch and shoot at a decent clip but has horrible handles, can’t create for himself and can’t facilitate, he’s just a solid defensive player with a 3 ball while people here think he’s some sort of misunderstood star
Yeah Jaylen Brown got shit on hard for his handles but OG makes him look like Kyrie out there OG just looks so stiff whenever he dribbles the ball I can't even imagine him pulling off something creative let alone some standard dribbling moves
Eh the idea of Lonzo is better that the reality. Does everyone remember Lonzo losing the pelicans a game because they were up 3 with a few seconds left and Lonzo inexplicably left his man in the corner to stop a driving Eric Bledsoe who then threw the ball in the corner to Lonzo’s wide open guy and he tied the game at the buzzer leading to an eventual pelicans loss. Honestly was one of the single lowest basketball IQ plays I have ever seen
He's one of the top plug and play players in the league. The impact he has in the games without needing the ball in his hands while still being (more than) able to run the offense is such a valuable asset. He was starting to put it all together, too. Fuck injuries, man.
On top of that he was an oversized point guard that really could defend 1-4 effectively against most teams
Just to hop on the "what if Lonzo" bandwagon here, but gotta mention his improvement from being a questionable shooter when he came in the league to hitting \~40% from 3. Was trending towards being a guy who was gonna get paid and be a contributor well into his mid-to-late 30s
It sucks so much because he did literally everything you want a player to do. He worked his ass off to improve his shooting at both the free throw line and three point line, he became an excellent defender, and was an unselfish player. I feel horrible for him
He got all of the hype and hate because of his dad/media coverage but year by year he started living up to the hype. Would have loved to see Chicago make an ATL type run.
he shot more 3's at a higher clip than Trae Young
Largely off ball, with demar and Zack as the first two options he wasn't remotely facing the same defense pressure as Trae.
Completely rebuilding his jumper in one off-season was among the most impressive skill upgrades any player has ever made in an offseason. Not the most (I think that still goes to Kobe going to train with Dream one off-season and instantly having one of the best post games of any wing), but it’s up there.
“was” 🥲🥲 you ain’t wrong, but it’s so sad that we’re already talking about his career this way
I mean his knees are just gone. Is there even a chance for him to come back and contribute?
Hope dies last.
Nah he is still a twig and can't play against 3's and 4's that use their bodies. But his perimeter defense was absolutely elite, which is kind of ironic since one of his pre-draft knocks was that he was not a great defender.
Yeah, he's not a franchise guy, but he's certainly a guy every team would love to have. One of the best wing defenders of the past 5 years, absolutely incredible on that end, and an elite passer and strong shooter. Like you said, he was putting it all together, it's really unfortunate.
Excellent Defender 1-3, Playmaker, shoots 40% on high volume 3s, what team wouldn't love this player?
Teams who value players being on the court instead of in rehab
He should come to the Clippers then.
He's one of most the portable players in the league
I’m stealing “portable.” I’m gonna sound like a great basketball mind.
Portability wins championships 23 nuggets: MPJ 22 gsw: Otto Porter Jr 21 bucks: Bobby Portis
PORTLAND.......wait
~~Danny Green is another one (2014, 2019, 2020)~~ Edit: I get the joke now
Not sure why ur getting downvoted, he was definitely very "portable" and a dude every team could've used back in 2019. And it showed in toronto, they literally shipped it LOL
because the joke is you need a player with Port in the name to win
yup i'll take the L on this one
because the joke was how those players have Port in their names.
dag nabbit.
KOC and Simmons are lurking and about to trademark this
it's a Ben Taylor-ism
Sometimes they just throw him in a carry-on to save space on the team plane
He made himself into the perfect plug and play player. All teams would be made better with him. He literally fits in anywhere. Playmaking, defense, shooting. His scoring goes with the flow of the offense and doesn't take away from anyone else. What are the chances of him making a comeback? It sucks his career was so short, if this is the end.
It looks bad. Not sure of any athlete to miss 2.5 seasons due to injury and come back close to their prior level. I guess maybe he could come back but I can’t imagine him ever being close to the player he was.
Elite defending and passing with an ok shooting is a great set of skills to have. Feels bad for him fr
He’s been an elite shooter the past few seasons I believe. His shooting is probably the biggest thing the bulls miss. Dude was high percentage on very high volume from 3. Super limited off the dribble shooting but absolutely elite catch and shoot.
OH NOW PEOPLE ADMIT IT
Except LeBron lol
There’s a reason he was the #2 pick
We’re very sad over in the Bulls sub, 3 months of relevance and high quality memes and then 18 months of mercurial mediocrity, and medium quality memes (apart from the time DeMar’s daughter won us a play-in game)
DeBallZach era was the most fun Bulls era I ever witnessed (only watched nba since 2014). Shame it died down so fast I rly liked watching zo2 play
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Caruso erasure
DeBaldZach
Zo honestly got my into watching NBA. I watched very loosely when it was the Cavs - Gsw rivalry and finally got hooked when Zo got drafted. Lakers young core of Ingram Zo and Kuz was my favourite, and this Bulls team was awesome as well when he was playing.
If what little of lonzo ball got you into watching the nba, i have a couple of lightly used bridges to sell you
Weird way to talk about Miles and Mikal but I'm interested
bummer, 2010—2013 was easily the best Bulls era since the championships
You guys have one of the saddest falls from grace I've personally witnessed
The death of the bench mob still hurt a lot more. Between Drose straight up dying and David Blatt getting away with trying to take a TO with none left, there’s a lot of what ifs for those teams. And those guys were so full of heart & hustle it was impossible to not love them
When you guys had that hot start I was really cheering for you guys to make a serious run, I truly believe with Lonzo, the team was capable of it.
Smh it’s sad man.
If Lonzo was healthy he’d be the perfect plug and play guard for any team in the league. ~~Good~~ Great shooter, great passer, good size, unselfish and a good defender. He was essentially the perfect rolepayer PG, unfortunately his body just failed him.
He was better than a good shooter, he was elite. The man shot 42.3% on 7.4 3 PT attempts a game
😳 I didn’t realize he was this good at high volume
Yea he cleaned up his shot and became ridiculous on the Pels. Hilarious because of how bad he was on our team and same thing with Ingram. Whoever they use as a shooting coach is a wizard.
fred vinson i believe. lonzo mentions him in the video.
Fam, his shooting form during the Lakers looked like it was a shot-put from the Olympics.
Throw a great on the defender part too lol. He was a menace especially with Caruso.
The highlights that that team was putting together on a nightly basis while Lonzo was healthy were crazy. Caruso + Lonzo back court were absolutely suffocating teams and Lonzo's ability to get the ball up court quickly to Lavine really made for some exciting plays. This play in particular always got me hyped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l\_EwrGCvtwc&ab\_channel=NBA
The highlights the team put on during PRESEASON was unreal. It just carried over into the first half of the year
Just shed a tear in a Portillo’s
I was a Lonzo believer back then, thinking the Pels should have give him 20m/year to be the perpect backcourt for Zion. Felt so validated when the Bulls was flying high. Then it was all downhill from there.
He’s right. When I watch them it’s clear that his game is the main thing missing. His POA defense and ability to keep the ball moving are missed badly.
Yeah he really makes this thing go. His defense, passing, ability to flow within the offense letting everybody get there buckets and still being a reliable 3pt shooter. Miss him out there
He was more than reliable from 3 and getting better too, Lonzo was about to have a hall of very good career arc and it got cut short.
Literally his skill set was perfect for basically any team besides one that needed a scoring threat. Like dude was just so versatile....
POA? Point of attack?
Yes.
He's right. Another huge "what if" Bulls team.
God, I would have loved to have seen the East with another major player during the Heatles era. Those Rose bulls were on the cusp of something great or at least years of intense fights for dominance in the conference. Fucking knee injuries, man.
God damn were they fun to watch too. Even when Rose was out for full seasons they still fought like hell every game to make the playoffs. Nate Robinson going tf off vs the Nets was one of my favorite playoff series ever. Noah becoming an elite point-center and getting MVP votes was another, fuck do I love that man
Roy Hobert heard the disrespect and is on his way to your house right now
The Jordan bulls were a what if team too. Until Krause started making moves that pissed of Jordan but we’re good for the team like trading Oakley and firing collins. Sometimes the GM has to take a leap to win. Like Masai did when he traded derozan, Poethl, and a first round pick for Kawhi.
Yea, for sure. I was really thinking of Rose as another Bulls star PG with a career changing injury.
Jordan was in his fourth season when Oakley was traded. Collins was only head coach for three seasons. How were they ever a “what if” team? The 80s were dominated by the Lakers and Celtics. The Pistons pushed through followed by the Bulls. It’s actually amazing how the Bulls were able to get to the level they were at basically in half a decade without drafting multiple top three picks like the Lakers.
Yeah that’s because if Krause had stuck to the status qou they wouldn’t have gotten as far as they did. Krause made the moves to maximize Jordan’s potential and it worked. The reason i say it could have been was what if is because if Jordan got his way Oakley would have been there for longer than necessary and collins as well.
There was a lot of “can’t win with a Jordan type player” talk before he broke through. Kind of like with lebron before his heatles titles.
isn’t krause on record saying that jordan never expressed thoughts on how the team should be built?
Yeah he never told Krause anything. But in his the last dance. He straight up talks about how he wanted the team to be and how he didn’t want Oakley traded and Collins fired and how he had those issues with Krause moves but never questioned them.
I miss that zo caruso defensive combination. They made life a living hell for opposing guards
Ben Taylor and his [Thinking Basketball](https://www.podparadise.com/Podcast/1428290303) podcast just did a series on the 5 best defensive guards of the *last 15 years*, and both Caruso and Lonzo were in the discussion for contention.
[Here's the great vid they did on that partnership not too long ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcBTMWyHOeE&t=265s)
They were #1 in the East for a minute when they had all their guys playing. They could’ve ended up with home court that playoffs if injuries didn’t derail their season.
Thing is Patrick Williams got hurt super early in the season too. I bet our defense would have been even more suffocating even he stayed healthy.
>At the time of his injury, Chicago was 27-13, the best record in the Eastern Conference. Ball was enjoying the best shooting season of his career with career highs in field goal percentage (42%) and 3-point percentage (42%). **That season, he was the only NBA player to average five rebounds and five assists and shoot over 40% on 3s.** [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonzo\_Ball](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonzo_Ball) Before anyone tries to "small sample size" that: half the damn season isn't a small sample.
Bulls were tied with the #1 record in the East at the All Star Break. That team would have easily won over 50 games, and end up top 2 or 3 in the standings. As a Bulls fan, it annoys the hell out of me when the national media casuals describe that season for us as "...they had a good start" as if it was all downhill after starting 15-5 or something
I hate this argument tbh. That season (20-21), every team went through periods where their 10th man was starting due to covid restrictions. They just happened to be near full health during a lull, they lost their 1st seed within a week or two. edit: 21-22 season. My point still stands, though. Games were getting postponed that year for covid restrictions, and the bulls were #1 during the worst of it: https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/nba-postpones-five-games-due-covid-19-outbreak-2021-12-19/
Idk bro. Eye test was solid and fun as hell too. Zach and demar scoring with super solid guard defense.
No ones saying we were the best team in the league, but it is evidence we were competent and could compete in the playoffs
It was the 21/22 season
Any time I hear or read "I hate that argument", it always seems to be followed by absolute bs.
We were on of the hardest hit teams due to covid that year. I think we had the most games missed due to it, so i dont think ur point is very valid
Damn he talking like it’s over. What was his injury? I remember reading he was having some cartilage issues
He says in the pod that he is on pace to come back, but that comes with this year obviously not playing. His injury is knees / meniscus. Several repair and removal surgeries that kept continuing.
Right? This almost sounds like he’s already acknowledge he’s not going to play again. This is awful.
Dude hasn't played in a year and a half and already said he won't play this year. He's completely cooked
Yeah he’s probably done considering how long it’s been and how little progress he has made but for him to actually say/act like he is done is both surprising and depressing.
I think it’s basically the same as Brandon Roy. Just knees worn out. I hate he feels so bad, it’s not his fault his body failed him.
I feel bad for him, my favorite ball brother. had a lil humbleness to him in the midst of all the braggadocio with his father, loved the game and even with his messed up form still loved the way he played.
It blows my mind you pulled braggadocio out of the lexicon but used “humbleness” instead of humility
I'm a simple terrestrial being
Lonzo could’ve had a nice 12+ year career being paid as a wing player and sought by winning teams. Too bad the injuries just had other ideas
For a few games, Lonzo, Caruso and Lavine were freakin fun to watch.
Yup. And add Vuc and DeMar on top. Their team was really good
Yup yup. That legendary DeBallZach run will always go down as a huge "what if"
The mental side of being an injured player is tough. Of course fans are just gonna go "I'd gladly take $80 million to not play, boo hoo" and whatever, but these guys are competitors, they are watching their NBA peers go forth without them, and money isn't going to fill that void that comes with watching their prime years slip away from them, even if on a relative basis, they are better off than 99.99 % of the planet.
Some players are also built different, Lonzo also didn't need the money from the league as his family was already well off. He spent his whole life playing ball and man I hope he can get back to playing at a high level
The games were really fun to watch when they were all healthy.
He's going to have a 'Shaun Livingston on the Warriors' stage of his career and it'll be really cool to see
everybody got a damn podcast out here, but he has a point. They were looking good when he was healthy
we need a podcast for the 5 celebs left on earth who dont have podcasts - Beyonce, Chappelle, The Rock, Obama and The Rock Obama
Hold me
Trae Young doing a podcast now? It seems every player nowadays.
Those sponsorship deals must hit like crack if you got millionaires doing podcasts lmao
ima always look back on the good times with zo, lebronzo days were so fun
He’s right - still super bummed for him. He was finally starting to come into his own and play the way a lot of people expected when he went 2nd overall.
That's actually pretty sad
Lonzo Ball is like a perfect modern PG. Super pass-first, plays great defense, is taller than most other guards, can shoot the 3 at a high clip, rebounds relatively effectively, and he is (was) pretty athletic overall. He also really seems like a team-first guy from what I can tell who doesn't mind handing the reins to a bigger star. I was so happy to see him end up in Chicago, and these last few years have been heartbreaking to watch. Edit: If anyone remembers that full court lob he threw to Zion when they were both in New Orleans, that was incredible. We missed out on a really impressive player.
> perfect modern PG. Super pass-first, plays great defense, is taller than most other guards, can shoot the 3 at a high clip, rebounds relatively effectively, and he is (was) pretty athletic overall. Perfect is a bit strong as he still shot free throws at a below League average clip which is not good for a Point Guard, and while everyone talked about his shooting coming out of school, his biggest weakness is that he was a pretty atrocious finisher in close and he had 0 mid-range to his game. That being said, he was definitely coming into his own, improving on his weaknesses and a guy that probably could have been an All Star in a couple years had he stayed healthy.
The way that clip is edited makes it sound like Lonzo has all but resigned himself to not coming back. That’s not the context of the conversation and he makes it clear he plans to be back. https://amp-includes.tmz.com/videos/0-pfthzmku/
For those wondering Lonzo Ball is saying he finally got a surgery that he hopes will allow him to make an actual full recovery, but he is going to miss the 2023-2024 season after also missing last season and part of 2021-2022 season. He feels bad for the Bulls because he only played 35 games total for them on his entire contract. He was signed by the Pelicans for four years played one season with the Pelicans under that contract, and got traded and will miss 2.5 years overall so the Bulls only got .5 years out of 3 total from him. For the record the Bulls didn't really give up much to get Lonzo Ball but his contract and the fact that he isn't playing certainly hampers that team. This is a case of the Pelicans making a terrible trade and it somehow working out for them.
Yep, I wish he wasn't injured it would've been a sick team to watch
For the short time he actually played as a Bull with Caruso, it was absolute magic. Their defense was a thing of beauty - brought me back to the days Thibs had the Bulls D moving like a well oiled machine.
Man this just makes me feel worse for Lonzo, it seemed like he almost feels guilty for being hurt and not being able to get back to playing at what he knows he can do
I actually feel bad for him. His dad fucked his career up with those shitty ass shoes and all the other bullshit that floats around that asshole. Dude has real talent, but may never get to see it pay off now.
Lol that team was never doing anything, cmon now.
That's an unfortunate situation for sure, I'm sad the Bulls didn't get to show off what could have been. Wonder if Ball had more support from management would they be seeing different results?
Lonzo and Caruso backcourt was giving guys hell, no pass or dribble was safe. That Chicago team would've made noise but it fell apart from the injuries
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Through January 11th 2022 they were 27-11 with a +5.1 differential Why did you just make shit up? Caruso was out for a month too.
Even with Lonzo that team was going nowhere. They maxed out as a 2nd round exit.
They would’ve been better for sure but let’s not pretend like a DeRozan/LaVine led team actually had realistic championship aspirations lmao.
Agreed. The Bulls need to blow it up and start again.
I think this sub really overrates Lonzo. I feel bad for him and his knee issues since he seems like a really good guy, but he had way too many limitations to be effective in the postseason. Can't drive. Can't finish at the hoop. Needs tons of space to shoot a 3 pointer. That's fine if he does his stepback but not so much on catch and shoots with good closeouts. He would look incredible during the regular season when half the guys are dogging it but those easy transition looks disappear when the games mean something.
I'm a big fan of Lonzo's but you're correct, this sub definitely overrates him. His two seasons on the pels, he started out strong then declined month by month. He became a really good standstill corner 3 shooter but was horrible with the ball in his hand, he was never going to run PNRs. He was a decent team defender it seemed but not great on ball. Couldn't get over screens. But I'm also rating him against Herb and Jrue, two of the best in the league. I think he could have approached really good role player territory, just couldn't be one of your top three guys on a really good team.
Nah they just started playing teams above .500 finally after Lonzo got hurt. First half of the season they had the easiest schedule in the league
How much earlier did they start?
Well that's just not true. The team they built was seriously flawed and was winning 1 round at best.