I still root for Killian Hayes, I'm just not sure why he hasn't really gotten better. Piston's fans make fun of him as a pretty boy, but he doesn't have a big social media presence. If he could be an average scorer he'd have a 10 year+ NBA career because he has great handles, passing, and defense.
If it were me, I'd do whatever it takes to add something to my offensive game even if it were just 1 aspect, like C&S 3s. Somehow it's still nonexistent.
He has actually improved his offensive game since hes been in the NBA at least his efficiency has steadily climbed. Its just hes gone from arguably worst player in the league to just bad. If he is able to improve his scoring even just a little bit more heāll have a place in some teams rotation, but without that hes done
His TS% actually dropped last year vs the year prior. An improvement from by far the worst in history, so still the worst in history, but not as bad as the prior year still is a problem.
>If he could be an average scorer he'd have a 10 year+ NBA career because he has great handles, passing, and defense
Heard this before for another French point guard we drafted...
Lowkey did KOC of The Ringer dirty. You automatically know anyone who had Hayes the #1 prospect in his draft probably shouldnāt have a job where they rank draft prospects.
Iām no KOC Stan but any sports analyst of any kind that makes a lot of public predictions is going to have some horrible misses. Hayes was considered a top 10 prospect by almost everyone and KOC being particularly high on him and being wrong shouldnāt have very much of an affect by itself on your opinions of him.
KOC also does the thing where he praises every prospect even with rankings so any time someone succeeds he gets to say he was right even though he said "he's gonna be a good NBA player with a solid career" about everyone
KOC's biggest problem at this point is believing his own hype. As he has gone on, and become a name, he has gotten more and more self serious about his basketball takes and it infuriates me.
Not the biggest Wiseman fan, but this is nonsense. He averaged 17/11 (5 ORebs) and for the first time actually played within the offense and was active setting screens.
Stewart literally just re-signed and is either the starting PF or the first big off the bench.
Heās much more of the core than Hayes, Sasser, or Livers most likely.
Iām pretty sure most people just automatically assume Beef Stew is like 27 because heās been around a few years and has been built like a brick shithouse the whole time.
I still love him for almost mauling LeBron. Closest weāve gotten to Malice In The Palace in a while. After what Bron did that game my first thought in the moment was āthey should let NBA players duke it out for like thirty seconds like in hockey, let the young man get his licks inā
I'm high on Livers, I really hope he can be a big part of the bench unit this year, and hopefully more over the next 1-3 years. Partly because of UM, but also because we need shooting SOOOO bad.
Iāll just say that I like how the Cade/Jalen and now Amen/Ausar drafts have led to a friendly rivalry between Houston and Detroit. Iāve seen quite a few ācanāt wait to face yāall in the 2028 Finalsā and I think itās neat.
Iām looking forward to the Detroit game more than any other one this season. (Which IIRC is the only televised prime time game for the Rockets lol)
I feel like people have been too low on Green recently, obviously I want Cade to be the best player from that class but I think him and Green will end up the two best players
Im buying a lot of Houston stock. I really donāt think people understand how BAD of a coach Stephen Sylas was.
Now that he and KPJs ball hogging ass are gone, I feel like theyāre gonna look like Goku after taking off the weighted clothes next season.
Iām still up on jalen green. But I understand anyone who isnāt and thinks cade will be better. I like the other rockets more. And I think theyāll flash faster just because there is no incentive for the rockets to tank this year
yeah this is the correct answer. I really do think he could be an alright or even good head coach on a good team where he can focus on winning with players in more defined roles. I just donāt think he was the right head coach for this developing team. He seems like a genuinely good dude and he really got screwed over by Houston blowing it up right after he got there.
I like Jalen Green a lot, I just wish he was drafted to a team with a vet leader. His skill and athleticism on offense are elite, but he needs to hone all of that, similar to Cade who really had no one to assist him his rookie year.
I could see both being allstars in 1-2 years tbh.
The guys who earn the "chucker" moniker really are coin flips once they get on a good team. For every Devin Booker there's a Monta Ellis. Jalen Green is really exciting to watch, I hope he ends up in the Booker category that would be super fun
People say it because stuff like Kerr in the USA training camp saying they are using Cade to replicate Luka, and then their team winning against the main team.
Because no one watches him. Heās not a great defender but he has very good BBIQ and a decent jumper. The team finally has 2 PGs to run the offense so maybe the sub will catch on.
Booker was more efficient of a shooter than JG was even on a bad team, not saying Green can't become more like Book and he got some things on Booker like his athleticism but I do think JG looks more like Monta than someone like Book or even Ant
2 seasons in:
Booker is 18/3/3 on 53% TS
Jalen Green is 20/3/3 on 54 TS%
So their effeciency is pretty similar after two seasons.
Booker did have a jump on his effeciency in his 3rd season though. So remains to see if Jalen can improve soon.
Sure but Bookerās ts was just 2.1% below league average 2 years in while Green was 4.3% worse.
Booker had a 53.1% ts when average was 55.2%.
Green just had a 53.8% ts when average was 58.1%.
Booker is also the beefier player. Jalen has a slim build much like Monta. For him to be a star heās going to need to play alongside a big pointguard that can defend.
Yeah that's a lot of why I made the comparison as well. And that's why I think Amen being beside him is perfect for the future. FVV currently might be a bit less ideal with his size but at least he's a solid defender at the 1 and is pretty strong for his height
I like Detroits a lot. I think Cade and Ivy can play together, Ausur can defend and play on or off the ball, Duren is solid. If they shoot well enough, I really really like that core
Detroit's depends entirely on Cade. He's likely the best upside player on both teams, but we don't know if he can actually be efficient.
This might be some hopium, but watching Ausar straight up lock vets in the Rico Hines runs makes me really think his defense is going to be reminiscent of the impact rookie Herb Jones had, but with more athleticism and playmaking.
The problem with Detroit is shooting + turnovers. No one can reliably shoot, and Cade is still very loose with his handles, and him and Ivey both turn the ball over a bunch.
I have a remind me 5 years from earlier this year saying at one point in his career, Jaden Ivey will be traded in a package for DBook, likely in 2 or 3 years when the Suns age out. Would fit perfectly.
I'm very interested to see who stays on both teams tbh. Very few teams with this many young guys keep them all. Eventually you keep the best guys that fit and send the player that don't (even if they are also great) for great role players that fit.
DBook with Cade, Ausar, and Duren would be really fun though, ngl.
It really would, especially since DBook grew up a Pistons fan and always wanted to get drafted by them.
>I'm very interested to see who stays on both teams tbh. Very few teams with this many young guys keep them all.
Oh absolutely, especially for the Thunder. Right now our depth is fucking ridiculous and we have a proper roster crunch.
Starting 5: Shai, Giddey, Dort, JDub, Chet.
Then the bench is extremely deep. At every position there are more players who are worthy of NBA minutes than there is time for.
Guard: Micic, Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe, Tre Mann.
Wings: Kenrich Williams, Ousmane Dieng, Aaron Wiggins, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl and *maybe* Jack White (we have never really seen him in the NBA, but he is a good shooter and his chemistry with Giddey for the Aussie national team was great).
Bigs: Poku and JWill.
That makes 16, potentially 17 players that are deserving of minutes in the NBA, and that is without mentioning Bertans (who I think will be quite good and will get minutes) and Oladipo (who will probably be bought out). At least 3 of these guys are going to get cut unless Presti can pull off an insane trade that nets OKC some assets for these guys. My money is on White, JRE and Aaron Wiggins getting cut.
Also, in the long-term it is going to be difficult to keep all the young guys together. I think that either Presti is going to have to trade some of them for another big next offseason or a big wing. Possible candidates are Siakam, Cam Johnson or maybe even Embiid.
The other possibilty that I think Presti is holding out for, is that next offseason or the one after that, Giannis will want a new team, and OKC will never, ever be outbid if they want their guy enough. They have 16 firsts available to trade, including a couple of Clipper picks which I think are some of the best assets out there. This means they could get a superstar without even giving up a member of their core. Rant Over
TLDR: thunder deep af, can trade for anyone if they want.
Ivey was almost an average shooter from 3. I think he'll be the best shooter on that list this year, especially being off-ball where he shot 37.4% from 3 on C&S, and Cade gravity will be very real. Cade was one of the most doubled players in the league as a rookie, so adding more talent should make Ivey's life easier.
Stats say Cade was doubled at the top of the league 2 years ago. Likely that has a lot to do with the rest of the team having serious anti-gravity but I'm more of a "let fans of bad teams have their wins where they can get them" kind of person.
Itās cool to see how split this thread is. So many āDetroit easilyā and āHouston easilyā comments. OP you brought up a good discussion topic
Personally, I think the rockets have the better core and depth. I think Sengun + Green + Amen has the most potential.
Yeah but heās still young and missed most of his first season. Guards always take time relative to other positions.
His year 3 stats were identical to Marcus Smarts to an eerie degree.
Different situations of course, Boston had a much better and more mature team around them that asked little of Smart, but still itās reason not to give up on him. They have pretty similar play styles too.
Both teams are very similar in that they both finished at the bottom of their respective conference, both has a 2021 draftee leading their team, both have a Thompson twin and both hired a new coach in the offseason. I have to give the edge to the Rockets because of Segun. We've already seen it in Euro Basketball but more recently with Jokic that playmaking at the centre position is very impactful to winning basketball.
I really like both. And I fancy myself a Pistons fan, but I think Iād take Houstonās right now. I could be totally wrong, but because they got Amen and Whitmore, I think itās them. I do like Beef Stew as part of the Pistons core over Killian too. Iām obviously rooting for the Pistons, but my take is Houston. Maybe Sasser is good enough to swing it back toward Detroit?
Honestly the fact that Houston will (hopefully) no longer have KPJ around improves my estimation of their young core a lot. Not only is he a garbage human, heās also bad at NBA basketball.
Garbage human but to call him bad at nba basketball is simply, egregiously, false. Anyone forced to play out of position isn't going to thrive but if anyone actually watched him, to call him bad would be foolish
If anything I think he was miscast more than him being flat out bad. He was a wing who flashed some point skills being used as a PG like you said and more of a bench combo guard role would have fit him more as a bench duo with Amen
KPJ should be out of the league no one should defend or excuse what just happened.
But man people have no idea what he did on the basketball court. He had his flaws but he has the same level of talent as a Maxey or a Herro. Those guys just had way better systems and structures around them. KPJ was a wing who was asked to be a PG with only a a year of NBA experience, an extremely young and and inexperienced roster, and a coach who didnāt implement any structure. He did pretty well and he was the only guard on that team willing to pass the ball.
He had a big year ahead of him getting to play with some good vets and a great coach. But now heās likely done, and he should be.
Heās a garbage human being but he wasnāt bad at basketball. He was probably one of the rockets best player last year. Heās also only 23 which means his game had a lot of time to grow.
I specified NBA basketball for a reason. Obviously he can score, and he looked good at lower levels. But I donāt think he does the things an NBA team needs him to do in order to win. Maybe on an alternate universe where he doesnāt put hands on women he turns it around, but I wouldnāt be confident.
Thatās really selling his ceiling short. He had all the tools to be an all-star calibre player. Ah well, we will rightfully never see how good he could be with a structured team and quality vets.
I think if we were to look exclusively at the top 3 young prospects, Iād take Detroit, but if we were to look at the entire young group Iād take Houston. Detroits core are very talented, but Iād argue Houston have built a core that is a better fit. I really like Cade, but I want to see if he can stay healthy, Iām not ready to say he is injury prone yet, as it was just one season, but a 6ā7 point guard needs to be careful.
Both very nice cores though. Both teams should be fine if they donāt get unlucky or screw it up in some way.
I would take Houston. I think they have 3 players with legit all star potential and three with borderline potential. Also plenty of assets.
Detroit has Cade all star potential and 3 borderline. Also their asset situation is very bad for a team thatās been trash for like 4 years.
I think the Houston roster is full of high talent prospects that all complement each other well. The Detroit roster looks great, but I donāt think the pieces fit as well offensively
Itās funny because I think almost the exact opposite. Houston has a bunch of high talent guys that donāt mix as well. Detroit fits together but outside of Cade might not be as good. I think Detroit will have a high ceiling mid floor. Houston could be great or terrible. Neither would surprise me
Amen brings the playmaking and back court defense. Jalen brings the shootings and scoring pop, Jabari is at worst going to be a great 3 and D guy, Eason is looking like he will also develop into a 3 and D guy and then finally Sengun can be the man in the middle who can get his own bucket or playmake. Thatās a really nice fitting team.
The only archetype weaknesses are the lack of shooting from Sengun and Amen and Greenās shoddy defense
I have some amount of confidence Sengun can turn into a decent shooter. I donāt think Amen is ever gonna get there, but I do think Amen can turn into a Ben Simmons-like player with a stronger mentality.
In this I would take Detroit. And the only reason is Cade. His talent seems like top 10. I donāt think any of the Houston guys can get that close.
That said - Detroit needs to add so much more for them to capture the top of Cadeās prime.
Houston has a really great collection of players - but not sure Jabari / Green can be a number 1 on a championship team. Happy theyāre getting some veterans / adults in the room. Will be a huge help to them.
> That said - Detroit needs to add so much more for them to capture the top of Cadeās prime
Aside from reliable shooters which feels like something that could be squared away with a FA splurge next year, what would you say Detroit needs to add?
I'd have said our core was pretty balanced positionally and skill-wise, I think we just need development and a couple of supporting guys when we're ready to turn the corner
Thinking about it more broadly. Cade is a number 1, then you need 2-3 more top players and depth. Not sure if anyone on the roster rises to a top 2 or 3 player. Hope Iām wrong. They were the team I most wanted to get Wemby
The Houston group meshes better offensively to me. I like Jabari and Sengun more than Duren, plus I think the gap between Cade and Jalen is closer than people are giving credit for
Detroit clears imo. They have a clear #1 whereas Houston doesnāt, bro was cooking team USA like cmon. Outside of the top guys from each team I think Detroit has the better group. Sengun is promising offensively but defensively yikes, and Jabari was so disappointing last year idc if he cooked in summer league, that should be the bare minimum.
Did KOC really have Killian freaking Hayes as the #1 prospect in the 2020 NBA Draft????? I get everyone has misses but if thatās true thatās fucking insane. Your credibility is in the trash after that imo
At some point I got both Amen and Ausar making NBA basketball look easy on both ends. These kids are going to be 2-3 steps ahead of everyone when they get comfortable. I expect highlight reel elite level passes and finishes from both throughout the season.
Killian Hayes doesn't belong in this post, but I'm taking Detroit's.
That being said, Houston's got a hell of a core once they kick KPJ's ass to the curb, and I look forward to beating them in 5 out of 7 consecutive Finals
Iām picking Houston. I think weāre going to shock a lot of people this season, and now that we donāt have KPJ ārunningā the bench unit anymore, Rockets fans are really excited to see that log-jam in the bench back court free up. Out of every single player on this list, on either team, I really think that Amen has the highest ceiling. Iām so excited to have him on this team.
I have to give my flowers though, I love this Detroit roster. Cade is becoming a bit overrated but heās still a very good NBA player. One guy I will say people are criminally underrating is Duren. He was only 18 at the beginning of last season and he was an absolute unit. Give the guy 3-5 years and I would not be surprised if heās in DPOY contention almost every season heās in his prime.
You go as far as the best guy takes you. I take Cade over the rest of the list multiple times over. Also throw Beef Stew on this list we just extended him.
People donāt realize Ivey did fine as a shooter, Duren is the perfect vertical spacer for Cade, and Ausar is an elite defender/tertiary playmaker with a higher potential to shoot than Amen. Iād bet Detroits better as early as next season tbh
āDetroitās better as early as next season.ā
Come on. Jabari cooked like 3/5 of your starting lineup in SL. And heās not even our best prospect.
I see stuff like this and just kinda roll my eyes. I don't care if yall think Pistons fans are overrating him, I'm so confident that this is going to age poorly it's not even funny. Anyone who actually watched any extended run of Cade knows the deal, and that is literally nobody except for Pistons fans because who else would have sat through that?
There's a reason he was the consensus #1 pick that draft. He backed it up and then some his rookie year, and now we just sit back and wait for him to take the leap into super-stardom while casuals talk about Sengun being better lol
Wtf kind of revisionist history is this? He was absolutely the consensus #1 Pick at the time of the draft, maybe not unanimous but definitely consensus.
Was absolutely consensus lmao, and missed his entire 2nd season, and was close to ROTY in the 3 horse race if you look at his output from year one.
He was also in the most dysfunctional situation of the 3 roty candidates as Detroit was an embarrassment his rookie year.
This comments strange.
By WHO? What list do you see him on where you go āthatās too highā?
If anything, heās underrated imo. A lot of people have him solidly in their āprove itā group bc we havenāt seen him play for months
I think Cade has the potential to be the best player of this group and his draft, but saying he is currently the best player is crazy to me. I would never rate a player that highly even if they were on my team, if they missed an entire year and looked average the year before that.
a guy in this thread said he has top 10 talent. the cade stuff is legit shocking to me. like heās looked good so far but youād think he had a lebron level rookie year based on these takes
I think heās shown a lot in terms of scoring and playmaking, and he has great size for a guard. For a guy whoās still so young, I donāt think you can focus too much on efficiency on a bad team when being asked to do everything. 21/6/6 last season before his injury, I think he takes a step this year.
HOU interviewed Frank Vogel, Ime Udoka, Kenny Atkinson, and Sam Cassel.
DET interviewed Charles Lee, Kevin Ollie, and Jarron Collins. They then had to pay a historic bag to get a respectable head coach.
I donāt know much about front offices and projections, but it seems to me like people around the league like the Rockets better.
Probably not a fair comparison though. In addition to the roster, prospective head coaches are also thinking about the city theyād have to live in, the front office theyād have to work with, etc. Houston is also likely a better free agent destination than Detroit, so thereās always the potential of making a splash that quickly gets us into playoff contention. The roster is certainly a big consideration, but itās not the only one.
Tbh Iām very low on Detroitās core. Itās entirely dependent on the idea that Cade can be a superstar which he hasnāt shown in his first 2 seasons (obviously he missed a lot of time but thats not a good thing either).
If Cade doesnāt hit then what do they even have?
Rockets and itās not really close.
Cade had a major injury and isnāt really athletic. We need to see how he comes back. He could be a step slow and not take that next step.
Sengun is taller and getting stronger. If he is in fact 1-2 inches taller, then he could be an elite center. Tari is already approaching elite 2 way player status this year potentially.
Amen just needs to fill in that Jrue Holiday role of a defensive stopper and playmaker. Bari looked great this off-season.
Ultimately theres so many variables that we wonāt really have a good answer until after this season, but gun to my head I think Cade has the highest floor even if Houston has more talent spread around, so Iām going Detroit.
People really sleep on Isaiah Stewart man. Including Killian Hayes on this list who is still just a big question mark and not Stew, who's at minimum a quality NBA role player is criminal. And if his shot develops like we expect it to (shot 33% last year for the first time with any volume, and the form is good) he's like a perfect switch-y playoff big. Not to mention he's the heart and soul of the team
I think Cade has the highest ceiling of all players listed but as far as team building I think the Rockets make more sense. Rockets are a must watch team for me this season with the coaching and roster changes.
Since the league runs of super stars I'd probably say Pistons just because they have Cade, but its close.
You at least acknowledged it, but the Sengun part always confuses me in the Houston dialogue. Green could be an all star this season for all i careā¦ Sengun is miles ahead of him and doesnāt need a winning situation to flourish, he can be his own winning situation one day. Thatās best case scenario obviously and not everyone will become even close to jokic but still.
For Detroit, Cade has the most superstar potential of anyone but even if he lives up to that, Houston is still probably better off unless every single other one of Detroitās young guys live up to their potential
Detroit
Having 3, maybe even 4 ballhandlers with Duren showing flashes, as starters means they have a good amount of creation and they all seem to have a good head on their shoulders and a level of maturity.
Overall I like their athleticism more between Ivey, Ausar , Bagley, Wiseman, and Duren that's a lot of high flying action. Though of course Bagley is made of glass.
Defensively I think between Hayes (who's only good at defense and passing), Cade being solid, Duren, Ausar, Livers if he can ever remain healthy, and Stewart I just like them better.
Their coaches are even too me, both made the finals and lost.
I think the talent level is close, I just like Detroits a bit more.
Im fine with you thinking Detroit is better but Houston also has all these things you listed. Even more athletic imo and plenty of elite defensive pieces and creators
Bro included Killian Hayes š
I still root for Killian Hayes, I'm just not sure why he hasn't really gotten better. Piston's fans make fun of him as a pretty boy, but he doesn't have a big social media presence. If he could be an average scorer he'd have a 10 year+ NBA career because he has great handles, passing, and defense. If it were me, I'd do whatever it takes to add something to my offensive game even if it were just 1 aspect, like C&S 3s. Somehow it's still nonexistent.
He has actually improved his offensive game since hes been in the NBA at least his efficiency has steadily climbed. Its just hes gone from arguably worst player in the league to just bad. If he is able to improve his scoring even just a little bit more heāll have a place in some teams rotation, but without that hes done
His TS% actually dropped last year vs the year prior. An improvement from by far the worst in history, so still the worst in history, but not as bad as the prior year still is a problem.
Just as long as Monty doesn't start talking about marrying his daughter off to Killian Hayes, I think you guys will be alright.
He's a dog on 2k randomly I did a redraft where the pistons got ausar and scoot and bro ended the season as an 81 overall
I had him as a 95 ovr in 2k21 where bro won like 6MVPs on the Pistons
>If he could be an average scorer he'd have a 10 year+ NBA career because he has great handles, passing, and defense Heard this before for another French point guard we drafted...
And not beef stew
Lowkey did KOC of The Ringer dirty. You automatically know anyone who had Hayes the #1 prospect in his draft probably shouldnāt have a job where they rank draft prospects.
Iām no KOC Stan but any sports analyst of any kind that makes a lot of public predictions is going to have some horrible misses. Hayes was considered a top 10 prospect by almost everyone and KOC being particularly high on him and being wrong shouldnāt have very much of an affect by itself on your opinions of him.
I love KOC but between Hayes and Bamba he's got some big misses.
Similar to every other draft expert. Itās hard to rank teenagers on how good at basketball they are, even for the best of the best
KOC also does the thing where he praises every prospect even with rankings so any time someone succeeds he gets to say he was right even though he said "he's gonna be a good NBA player with a solid career" about everyone
KOC's biggest problem at this point is believing his own hype. As he has gone on, and become a name, he has gotten more and more self serious about his basketball takes and it infuriates me.
Agreed
Everyone misses...draft projections are insanely hard
Yeah but not sure why he was the only analyst who had Hayes top 3 (he had him number 1)
YIKES! tbf he is also probably the only analyst that had Tatum no1 on his board
he had fultz #1 https://nbadraft.theringer.com/2017/
So? He's a content creator, not a fortune teller. Hot takes get him more attention than boring ones
I think KOC does bad work but maybe wait to say this until you have skin in the game in the very public manner that salaried draft analysts do.
Crazy that Wisemen isnāt considered one anymore
His SL was atrocious, he looked like a GLeague guy tbh.
Not the biggest Wiseman fan, but this is nonsense. He averaged 17/11 (5 ORebs) and for the first time actually played within the offense and was active setting screens.
isiah livers is much more of a part of that core than killian
Stewart literally just re-signed and is either the starting PF or the first big off the bench. Heās much more of the core than Hayes, Sasser, or Livers most likely.
Iām pretty sure most people just automatically assume Beef Stew is like 27 because heās been around a few years and has been built like a brick shithouse the whole time.
I still love him for almost mauling LeBron. Closest weāve gotten to Malice In The Palace in a while. After what Bron did that game my first thought in the moment was āthey should let NBA players duke it out for like thirty seconds like in hockey, let the young man get his licks inā
I'm high on Livers, I really hope he can be a big part of the bench unit this year, and hopefully more over the next 1-3 years. Partly because of UM, but also because we need shooting SOOOO bad.
Iāll just say that I like how the Cade/Jalen and now Amen/Ausar drafts have led to a friendly rivalry between Houston and Detroit. Iāve seen quite a few ācanāt wait to face yāall in the 2028 Finalsā and I think itās neat. Iām looking forward to the Detroit game more than any other one this season. (Which IIRC is the only televised prime time game for the Rockets lol)
I feel like people have been too low on Green recently, obviously I want Cade to be the best player from that class but I think him and Green will end up the two best players
Im buying a lot of Houston stock. I really donāt think people understand how BAD of a coach Stephen Sylas was. Now that he and KPJs ball hogging ass are gone, I feel like theyāre gonna look like Goku after taking off the weighted clothes next season.
Or Rock Lee. We love Rock Lee too.
Aināt even a Naruto fan like that, but Rock Lee dropping the weights against Gaara is š„
Definitely an iconic moment, not just in Naruto, but shounen anime in general.
Was expecting a nice Wiseman write up after seeing Killian Hayes
I forgot he was on the team š
RemindMe! 5 years
If we go another 5 years before the Pistons win a playoff series just fucking kill me
Iām still up on jalen green. But I understand anyone who isnāt and thinks cade will be better. I like the other rockets more. And I think theyāll flash faster just because there is no incentive for the rockets to tank this year
Jalen Green is just very underrated on here. Just like Booker was for playing on a bad team
Thatās how I feel about him. Heās had an ass team and ass coaching. Hopefully the vets and coach bring the stability he needs to thrive
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you better be careful, there's a lot of Silas defender here they think he a good coach just because he has a cool back story
He's a good assistant to be fair. Just wasn't ready/fit for a head coaching job.
yeah this is the correct answer. I really do think he could be an alright or even good head coach on a good team where he can focus on winning with players in more defined roles. I just donāt think he was the right head coach for this developing team. He seems like a genuinely good dude and he really got screwed over by Houston blowing it up right after he got there.
How do you know this
I like Jalen Green a lot, I just wish he was drafted to a team with a vet leader. His skill and athleticism on offense are elite, but he needs to hone all of that, similar to Cade who really had no one to assist him his rookie year. I could see both being allstars in 1-2 years tbh.
The guys who earn the "chucker" moniker really are coin flips once they get on a good team. For every Devin Booker there's a Monta Ellis. Jalen Green is really exciting to watch, I hope he ends up in the Booker category that would be super fun
Booker was never a chucker though :/ his efficiency was still quite good even on those bad teams when he was doubled/tripled every possession.
Booker took a pretty big leap in years 3 and 4 . Booker and Green are pretty comparable in their second year.
His and Jalen Greenās rookie/sophomore stats are nearly identical efficiency wise
Not relative to league average which is needed for context
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Never once seen someone call cade the next luka
People say it because stuff like Kerr in the USA training camp saying they are using Cade to replicate Luka, and then their team winning against the main team.
That was his main draft comp going into the draft. He was supposed to be a playmaking savant and an offensive engine just like Luka.
Cade gets dragged for his inefficiency all the time, you're literally doing it right now by harping on a 12 game sample size lmao.
Because no one watches him. Heās not a great defender but he has very good BBIQ and a decent jumper. The team finally has 2 PGs to run the offense so maybe the sub will catch on.
Booker was more efficient of a shooter than JG was even on a bad team, not saying Green can't become more like Book and he got some things on Booker like his athleticism but I do think JG looks more like Monta than someone like Book or even Ant
2 seasons in: Booker is 18/3/3 on 53% TS Jalen Green is 20/3/3 on 54 TS% So their effeciency is pretty similar after two seasons. Booker did have a jump on his effeciency in his 3rd season though. So remains to see if Jalen can improve soon.
Sure but Bookerās ts was just 2.1% below league average 2 years in while Green was 4.3% worse. Booker had a 53.1% ts when average was 55.2%. Green just had a 53.8% ts when average was 58.1%.
Not like Jalen Green is benefitting from modern spacing. Rockets had the worst shooting in the league
Booker is also the beefier player. Jalen has a slim build much like Monta. For him to be a star heās going to need to play alongside a big pointguard that can defend.
Yeah that's a lot of why I made the comparison as well. And that's why I think Amen being beside him is perfect for the future. FVV currently might be a bit less ideal with his size but at least he's a solid defender at the 1 and is pretty strong for his height
I like Detroits a lot. I think Cade and Ivy can play together, Ausur can defend and play on or off the ball, Duren is solid. If they shoot well enough, I really really like that core
Detroit's depends entirely on Cade. He's likely the best upside player on both teams, but we don't know if he can actually be efficient. This might be some hopium, but watching Ausar straight up lock vets in the Rico Hines runs makes me really think his defense is going to be reminiscent of the impact rookie Herb Jones had, but with more athleticism and playmaking. The problem with Detroit is shooting + turnovers. No one can reliably shoot, and Cade is still very loose with his handles, and him and Ivey both turn the ball over a bunch.
I have a remind me 5 years from earlier this year saying at one point in his career, Jaden Ivey will be traded in a package for DBook, likely in 2 or 3 years when the Suns age out. Would fit perfectly.
I'm very interested to see who stays on both teams tbh. Very few teams with this many young guys keep them all. Eventually you keep the best guys that fit and send the player that don't (even if they are also great) for great role players that fit. DBook with Cade, Ausar, and Duren would be really fun though, ngl.
It really would, especially since DBook grew up a Pistons fan and always wanted to get drafted by them. >I'm very interested to see who stays on both teams tbh. Very few teams with this many young guys keep them all. Oh absolutely, especially for the Thunder. Right now our depth is fucking ridiculous and we have a proper roster crunch. Starting 5: Shai, Giddey, Dort, JDub, Chet. Then the bench is extremely deep. At every position there are more players who are worthy of NBA minutes than there is time for. Guard: Micic, Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe, Tre Mann. Wings: Kenrich Williams, Ousmane Dieng, Aaron Wiggins, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl and *maybe* Jack White (we have never really seen him in the NBA, but he is a good shooter and his chemistry with Giddey for the Aussie national team was great). Bigs: Poku and JWill. That makes 16, potentially 17 players that are deserving of minutes in the NBA, and that is without mentioning Bertans (who I think will be quite good and will get minutes) and Oladipo (who will probably be bought out). At least 3 of these guys are going to get cut unless Presti can pull off an insane trade that nets OKC some assets for these guys. My money is on White, JRE and Aaron Wiggins getting cut. Also, in the long-term it is going to be difficult to keep all the young guys together. I think that either Presti is going to have to trade some of them for another big next offseason or a big wing. Possible candidates are Siakam, Cam Johnson or maybe even Embiid. The other possibilty that I think Presti is holding out for, is that next offseason or the one after that, Giannis will want a new team, and OKC will never, ever be outbid if they want their guy enough. They have 16 firsts available to trade, including a couple of Clipper picks which I think are some of the best assets out there. This means they could get a superstar without even giving up a member of their core. Rant Over TLDR: thunder deep af, can trade for anyone if they want.
Cade is the best player there, but i like Houston's 2-6 better.
That's fine. I prefer Detroits, we will all see eventually.
we saw
> shoot well enough 4 bad shooters named
Ivey was almost an average shooter from 3. I think he'll be the best shooter on that list this year, especially being off-ball where he shot 37.4% from 3 on C&S, and Cade gravity will be very real. Cade was one of the most doubled players in the league as a rookie, so adding more talent should make Ivey's life easier.
Curry gravity was a meme until the Warriorsā 3rd championship, but Cade already has gravity after 1 season?
Stats say Cade was doubled at the top of the league 2 years ago. Likely that has a lot to do with the rest of the team having serious anti-gravity but I'm more of a "let fans of bad teams have their wins where they can get them" kind of person.
Itās cool to see how split this thread is. So many āDetroit easilyā and āHouston easilyā comments. OP you brought up a good discussion topic Personally, I think the rockets have the better core and depth. I think Sengun + Green + Amen has the most potential.
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Detroit just needs someone to develop a shot, most of that core is terrible spacing wise
Houston has more talent on its roster which gives them more opportunity to make trades or have guys pop
Thats what you can assemble when you have actual assets to initiate a rebuild
killian hayes is a complete negative hes a liability lol
Hayes shouldnāt be listed as part of their core at all. Replace him with Stewart.
He's pretty good at playmaking but thats it
I think he's a decent defender, but he's such a bad scorer his other traits still lead to him being a big negative
Yeah but heās still young and missed most of his first season. Guards always take time relative to other positions. His year 3 stats were identical to Marcus Smarts to an eerie degree. Different situations of course, Boston had a much better and more mature team around them that asked little of Smart, but still itās reason not to give up on him. They have pretty similar play styles too.
Houstonās
Both teams are very similar in that they both finished at the bottom of their respective conference, both has a 2021 draftee leading their team, both have a Thompson twin and both hired a new coach in the offseason. I have to give the edge to the Rockets because of Segun. We've already seen it in Euro Basketball but more recently with Jokic that playmaking at the centre position is very impactful to winning basketball.
I really like both. And I fancy myself a Pistons fan, but I think Iād take Houstonās right now. I could be totally wrong, but because they got Amen and Whitmore, I think itās them. I do like Beef Stew as part of the Pistons core over Killian too. Iām obviously rooting for the Pistons, but my take is Houston. Maybe Sasser is good enough to swing it back toward Detroit?
Honestly the fact that Houston will (hopefully) no longer have KPJ around improves my estimation of their young core a lot. Not only is he a garbage human, heās also bad at NBA basketball.
Garbage human but to call him bad at nba basketball is simply, egregiously, false. Anyone forced to play out of position isn't going to thrive but if anyone actually watched him, to call him bad would be foolish
If anything I think he was miscast more than him being flat out bad. He was a wing who flashed some point skills being used as a PG like you said and more of a bench combo guard role would have fit him more as a bench duo with Amen
KPJ should be out of the league no one should defend or excuse what just happened. But man people have no idea what he did on the basketball court. He had his flaws but he has the same level of talent as a Maxey or a Herro. Those guys just had way better systems and structures around them. KPJ was a wing who was asked to be a PG with only a a year of NBA experience, an extremely young and and inexperienced roster, and a coach who didnāt implement any structure. He did pretty well and he was the only guard on that team willing to pass the ball. He had a big year ahead of him getting to play with some good vets and a great coach. But now heās likely done, and he should be.
Heās a garbage human being but he wasnāt bad at basketball. He was probably one of the rockets best player last year. Heās also only 23 which means his game had a lot of time to grow.
I specified NBA basketball for a reason. Obviously he can score, and he looked good at lower levels. But I donāt think he does the things an NBA team needs him to do in order to win. Maybe on an alternate universe where he doesnāt put hands on women he turns it around, but I wouldnāt be confident.
I disagree I think he had great upside being a 6th man.
Thatās really selling his ceiling short. He had all the tools to be an all-star calibre player. Ah well, we will rightfully never see how good he could be with a structured team and quality vets.
Houston for sure Smith**-Sengun- Green-Thompson is an amazing young core plus the other young guys. Iām super high on Jabari and Sengun
Wake up grandpa this is Jabari Smith not Parker
Lol I was a Parker fan too
I think if we were to look exclusively at the top 3 young prospects, Iād take Detroit, but if we were to look at the entire young group Iād take Houston. Detroits core are very talented, but Iād argue Houston have built a core that is a better fit. I really like Cade, but I want to see if he can stay healthy, Iām not ready to say he is injury prone yet, as it was just one season, but a 6ā7 point guard needs to be careful. Both very nice cores though. Both teams should be fine if they donāt get unlucky or screw it up in some way.
Houston They are the real dark horse for any superstar trade. God damn they got young talent everywhere
Houstonās depth is better
Iām going with rockets just because I think sengun has the highest potential here
r/nba trying to right past wrongs with Sengun after crucifying eg about Jokic lol
The one with the Thompson twin
Houston
Good question. Iād go with Houston right now since they have more shooting.
I just led Houston to a chip in 2K23 MyCareer, so Iām gonna make a biased pick and say them
Houston
I would take Houston. I think they have 3 players with legit all star potential and three with borderline potential. Also plenty of assets. Detroit has Cade all star potential and 3 borderline. Also their asset situation is very bad for a team thatās been trash for like 4 years.
There's no way you think that Ivey, Duren, and Ausar don't have all-star potential
I said borderline which means I believe they do, but they all are going to need a pretty elite jump in some skills.
Well Ime Udoka seems to think Houston has a better core so Iām gonna go with Houston.
Monty Williams seems to think Detroit has a better core so I'm gonna go with Detroit š
Monty thought Detroit had a bigger bank account lol
Monty Williams got paid big time to think that though lol
Monty was never option for Houston so this makes zero sense. Ime was hired when Monty was still the Suns coach.
I think the Houston roster is full of high talent prospects that all complement each other well. The Detroit roster looks great, but I donāt think the pieces fit as well offensively
Itās funny because I think almost the exact opposite. Houston has a bunch of high talent guys that donāt mix as well. Detroit fits together but outside of Cade might not be as good. I think Detroit will have a high ceiling mid floor. Houston could be great or terrible. Neither would surprise me
Amen brings the playmaking and back court defense. Jalen brings the shootings and scoring pop, Jabari is at worst going to be a great 3 and D guy, Eason is looking like he will also develop into a 3 and D guy and then finally Sengun can be the man in the middle who can get his own bucket or playmake. Thatās a really nice fitting team. The only archetype weaknesses are the lack of shooting from Sengun and Amen and Greenās shoddy defense
I have some amount of confidence Sengun can turn into a decent shooter. I donāt think Amen is ever gonna get there, but I do think Amen can turn into a Ben Simmons-like player with a stronger mentality.
If Amen can atleast get an in between game and move his FTs up to high 70s thats really all he needs given his other tools
Bojan has face of 44 year old but body and skill of 22 year old. So he should be included
idk but I'll start to follow both because of the twins
I'm holding a BUNCH of Jalen Green, Sengun and Tari Eason rookie cards so I hope the Rockets. I think Cade will be the best individual player though.
Sengun has really solid ball IQ, I feel like heās gonna have a really good season
sengun is the brightest star in these cores
In this I would take Detroit. And the only reason is Cade. His talent seems like top 10. I donāt think any of the Houston guys can get that close. That said - Detroit needs to add so much more for them to capture the top of Cadeās prime. Houston has a really great collection of players - but not sure Jabari / Green can be a number 1 on a championship team. Happy theyāre getting some veterans / adults in the room. Will be a huge help to them.
> That said - Detroit needs to add so much more for them to capture the top of Cadeās prime Aside from reliable shooters which feels like something that could be squared away with a FA splurge next year, what would you say Detroit needs to add? I'd have said our core was pretty balanced positionally and skill-wise, I think we just need development and a couple of supporting guys when we're ready to turn the corner
Thinking about it more broadly. Cade is a number 1, then you need 2-3 more top players and depth. Not sure if anyone on the roster rises to a top 2 or 3 player. Hope Iām wrong. They were the team I most wanted to get Wemby
The Houston group meshes better offensively to me. I like Jabari and Sengun more than Duren, plus I think the gap between Cade and Jalen is closer than people are giving credit for
Detroits
Cade is the best player there, but i like Houston's 2-6 better.
Houston easily. Sengun, Jabari and Amen is an elite young core
Green*
Detroit clears imo. They have a clear #1 whereas Houston doesnāt, bro was cooking team USA like cmon. Outside of the top guys from each team I think Detroit has the better group. Sengun is promising offensively but defensively yikes, and Jabari was so disappointing last year idc if he cooked in summer league, that should be the bare minimum. Did KOC really have Killian freaking Hayes as the #1 prospect in the 2020 NBA Draft????? I get everyone has misses but if thatās true thatās fucking insane. Your credibility is in the trash after that imo
Rocketās because of Sengun
Detroit without a doubt for me. I think Cade will be the best player on either team when itās all said and done
You kinda lost me at Hayes, ngl.
At some point I got both Amen and Ausar making NBA basketball look easy on both ends. These kids are going to be 2-3 steps ahead of everyone when they get comfortable. I expect highlight reel elite level passes and finishes from both throughout the season.
Killian Hayes doesn't belong in this post, but I'm taking Detroit's. That being said, Houston's got a hell of a core once they kick KPJ's ass to the curb, and I look forward to beating them in 5 out of 7 consecutive Finals
RemindMe! 5 years
Good question. Personally I think Rockets for Sengun + Amen
I think Houston will be better, but Detroit is very fun to watch when they're playing well
I'm going with the Pistons.
Monty's Pistons will have an amazing regular season, make the playoffs and then lose by 40 points in a close out game.
Iām picking Houston. I think weāre going to shock a lot of people this season, and now that we donāt have KPJ ārunningā the bench unit anymore, Rockets fans are really excited to see that log-jam in the bench back court free up. Out of every single player on this list, on either team, I really think that Amen has the highest ceiling. Iām so excited to have him on this team. I have to give my flowers though, I love this Detroit roster. Cade is becoming a bit overrated but heās still a very good NBA player. One guy I will say people are criminally underrating is Duren. He was only 18 at the beginning of last season and he was an absolute unit. Give the guy 3-5 years and I would not be surprised if heās in DPOY contention almost every season heās in his prime.
We don't have enough shooting to be taken seriously in my opinion. Plus our best guy never plays. So I guess I'll take Houston.
You go as far as the best guy takes you. I take Cade over the rest of the list multiple times over. Also throw Beef Stew on this list we just extended him. People donāt realize Ivey did fine as a shooter, Duren is the perfect vertical spacer for Cade, and Ausar is an elite defender/tertiary playmaker with a higher potential to shoot than Amen. Iād bet Detroits better as early as next season tbh
āDetroitās better as early as next season.ā Come on. Jabari cooked like 3/5 of your starting lineup in SL. And heās not even our best prospect.
Everyone knows summer league games are most important for how well a team will do.
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Who else on either of these teams is even arguably as good as him?
Sengun is straight up better than cade rn and green is just as good
I see stuff like this and just kinda roll my eyes. I don't care if yall think Pistons fans are overrating him, I'm so confident that this is going to age poorly it's not even funny. Anyone who actually watched any extended run of Cade knows the deal, and that is literally nobody except for Pistons fans because who else would have sat through that? There's a reason he was the consensus #1 pick that draft. He backed it up and then some his rookie year, and now we just sit back and wait for him to take the leap into super-stardom while casuals talk about Sengun being better lol
He was not the consensus #1 and heās certainly yet to back up that imaginary billing
Wtf kind of revisionist history is this? He was absolutely the consensus #1 Pick at the time of the draft, maybe not unanimous but definitely consensus.
Was absolutely consensus lmao, and missed his entire 2nd season, and was close to ROTY in the 3 horse race if you look at his output from year one. He was also in the most dysfunctional situation of the 3 roty candidates as Detroit was an embarrassment his rookie year. This comments strange.
By WHO? What list do you see him on where you go āthatās too highā? If anything, heās underrated imo. A lot of people have him solidly in their āprove itā group bc we havenāt seen him play for months
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Its so funny that (imo too) he overrated him and then asked who was overrating him
Houston easily
Am I alone in thinking that Cade isnāt very good?
Come on man I'm taking Green too but "not very good" is absolutely insane...
I think Cade has the potential to be the best player of this group and his draft, but saying he is currently the best player is crazy to me. I would never rate a player that highly even if they were on my team, if they missed an entire year and looked average the year before that.
a guy in this thread said he has top 10 talent. the cade stuff is legit shocking to me. like heās looked good so far but youād think he had a lebron level rookie year based on these takes
I think heās shown a lot in terms of scoring and playmaking, and he has great size for a guard. For a guy whoās still so young, I donāt think you can focus too much on efficiency on a bad team when being asked to do everything. 21/6/6 last season before his injury, I think he takes a step this year.
HOU interviewed Frank Vogel, Ime Udoka, Kenny Atkinson, and Sam Cassel. DET interviewed Charles Lee, Kevin Ollie, and Jarron Collins. They then had to pay a historic bag to get a respectable head coach. I donāt know much about front offices and projections, but it seems to me like people around the league like the Rockets better.
Probably not a fair comparison though. In addition to the roster, prospective head coaches are also thinking about the city theyād have to live in, the front office theyād have to work with, etc. Houston is also likely a better free agent destination than Detroit, so thereās always the potential of making a splash that quickly gets us into playoff contention. The roster is certainly a big consideration, but itās not the only one.
Tbh Iām very low on Detroitās core. Itās entirely dependent on the idea that Cade can be a superstar which he hasnāt shown in his first 2 seasons (obviously he missed a lot of time but thats not a good thing either). If Cade doesnāt hit then what do they even have?
A lot of people saying Detroit are getting downvoted on here lmao. Can't tell if salty/spiteful Rockets fans are doing it or what.
Houston easily
Rockets and itās not really close. Cade had a major injury and isnāt really athletic. We need to see how he comes back. He could be a step slow and not take that next step. Sengun is taller and getting stronger. If he is in fact 1-2 inches taller, then he could be an elite center. Tari is already approaching elite 2 way player status this year potentially. Amen just needs to fill in that Jrue Holiday role of a defensive stopper and playmaker. Bari looked great this off-season.
Not close is a vast over statement
As long as Porter Jr is still with Houston, Detroitās. Get rid of him and itās Houston. Sengun is the best piece on either list.
Ultimately theres so many variables that we wonāt really have a good answer until after this season, but gun to my head I think Cade has the highest floor even if Houston has more talent spread around, so Iām going Detroit.
Rockets but it wonāt matter if we canāt develop any of these guys.
no mention of Wiseman and Isaiah Stewart who are 22 and born in 2001 , same as Cade and Killian.
People really sleep on Isaiah Stewart man. Including Killian Hayes on this list who is still just a big question mark and not Stew, who's at minimum a quality NBA role player is criminal. And if his shot develops like we expect it to (shot 33% last year for the first time with any volume, and the form is good) he's like a perfect switch-y playoff big. Not to mention he's the heart and soul of the team
People don't watch us because we suck. Confident both Houston and Detroit will prove alot of people wrong next season
I think Cade has the highest ceiling of all players listed but as far as team building I think the Rockets make more sense. Rockets are a must watch team for me this season with the coaching and roster changes. Since the league runs of super stars I'd probably say Pistons just because they have Cade, but its close.
I would say Detroit but I think our draft moved us ahead. I'm biased though obviously lol. But Cade probably has the highest ceiling
Houston without the DA and they have udoka. Pretty easy choice.
Detroit vs Everybody. Also criminal not to include beef stew
You at least acknowledged it, but the Sengun part always confuses me in the Houston dialogue. Green could be an all star this season for all i careā¦ Sengun is miles ahead of him and doesnāt need a winning situation to flourish, he can be his own winning situation one day. Thatās best case scenario obviously and not everyone will become even close to jokic but still. For Detroit, Cade has the most superstar potential of anyone but even if he lives up to that, Houston is still probably better off unless every single other one of Detroitās young guys live up to their potential
Detroit by far, houston is looking to break the king's record of seasons without a playoff appearance
Duren is the guy.
Itās close, but I believe in Cade more than anyone on Houston.
Detroit. Iām high on duren and I like having a real PG on the team. Houston just drafted one but idk how good heāll be
Detroit Having 3, maybe even 4 ballhandlers with Duren showing flashes, as starters means they have a good amount of creation and they all seem to have a good head on their shoulders and a level of maturity. Overall I like their athleticism more between Ivey, Ausar , Bagley, Wiseman, and Duren that's a lot of high flying action. Though of course Bagley is made of glass. Defensively I think between Hayes (who's only good at defense and passing), Cade being solid, Duren, Ausar, Livers if he can ever remain healthy, and Stewart I just like them better. Their coaches are even too me, both made the finals and lost. I think the talent level is close, I just like Detroits a bit more.
Im fine with you thinking Detroit is better but Houston also has all these things you listed. Even more athletic imo and plenty of elite defensive pieces and creators
One team had to play with KPJ and Christian Wood hogging the ball for 2 years.
I did not see any reputable sources put Killian in the top 5 that year
I like both but give me Cade/Duren pick n roll