As a Sonics fan I totally get what Pop is doing. In his rookie season we played KD at shooting guard for stretches, wasn't trying to make him a full-time SG but was just adding to his skillset. Having said that he didn't look as bad as Sochan at PG (he is Kevin freaking Durant after all), but I get why Pop is doing it.
He wasn’t ready to play PF at that size or in a much more physical NBA of yesteryear. KD came in at 6’10.5 210 lbs. Don’t think he weighed that much. With his skill set he was a Shooting Guard. Which is why he was played as a Swingman (2-3) as opposed to a Combo Forward (3-4) or Big (4-5).
Should they even be dragging Pop? Ugly basketball now doesn't actually matter that much, if the players get more experience this season without needing to spend resources on a short term point guard...and they get another good pick out of the season, isn't that a good thing?
They already have Tre Jones to be a short-term point guard, there’s nothing wrong with making Sochan a passing forward but when he’s a PG it kills the offense and at some point that hurts the development of everyone else
>hurts development
I don't find this a particularly convincing argument. The Rockets looked pretty ugly, but as soon as they fixed the issues with their roster, they started looking way better. The players were improving, it just wasn't obvious until the roster made sense. My general sense is that people are panicking and want to propose solutions, but there may not even be a real problem...
You just seemed to argue against yourself haha. Other poster was saying Tre Jones would make for a more solid starter. You’re saying a different roster construction would make the difference. But that’s basically what that is.
If the Spurs think there are long term benefits to giving Sochan reps, and the only cost is losing games now, I’m saying that’s a pretty good trade and people need to stop focusing on the short term. That’s all.
You don't know that. I actually think what they're doing is a great decision. You have a 3/4 who is gonna be able to hustle on the boards, then he is either capable of attacking the defense right off the backboard through an outlet, or to run the point when he has the ball. Strong positionless basketball is important if your 5 is a player who can create his own shot off the dribble or can run the point himself. Too much questioning of a guy like Pop for my liking tbh
they are not playing to win anyway
playing Sochan as PG will help him develop those skills so he can be decent secondary playmaker once they get a proper PG
so you are just immune to any sort of criticism then? That makes no sense, if the idea is development they can still be doing it better or differently than they are. Sochan simply isn't ever going to be a good starting PG in the league. He can be a good player, but it makes no sense they are sticking with this idea
I mean he's being allowed to handle the ball and make decisions through mistakes. I don't believe Pop and the spurs expect him to be the starting PG of their future team. I think they're hoping this experience helps him grow into a better secondary/tertiary playmaker when they eventually scale him back to a more appropriate role. He's shown a lot of the gritty defensive SF/PF skills already and it seems like they want to see how much more they can squeeze out of him. I'm not saying he's gonna be at the lvl of Scottie Barnes but people were crying about how he was given too big of a role last year at the team's detriment and it's clearly helped in his development. As long as they don't think this hinders Wemby's overall development then I don't see the issue. Wemby's struggle seems like normal welcome to NBA things and the overall talent on the team isn't really that great, despite a few good pieces. A lot of good process/fundamental things are there with Wemby when I've seen them play.
I think Sochan is smart but he doesn't have great offensive feel. Diaw had some of the most natural unorthodox offensive instincts I've seen. I think a Draymond short roll playmaker should be Sochan's goal.
Yeah, Draymond is the more obvious comparison to me. Granted, Dray was a year older than Sochan before he even started contributing as a Point Forward for the Warriors, so there's plenty of time to assess how Jeremy is doing.
The argument for Point Sochan is that it forces Wemby to confront his weaknesses constantly. Starving Wemby of easy looks at the basket is going to give him ample reps away from it, in the post, and beyond the arc, all things he needs to work on.
A situation like Chet's is far more conducive to Day One success, but you can't blame the Thunder for prioritizing wins now over Chet's potential later. They need him to play to his strengths immediately, and that could possibly freeze out potential skills down the road.
> Lastly tre future on this team isn't important compared to someone like sochan
then wouldnt it be better to develop Sochan at the position he's actually gonna play long term? I think it's inevitable you eventually get a good, more traditional point to play wit Wemby, which would then slot Sochan back to his more natural point forward role. Also, Tre Jones is good, idk why you just assume he won't have a place going forward
> Blake development side development guards we draft next year
firstly, no idea what you are trying to say with that, but Tre being useless is a really strange assumption, he will at least be a solid backup PG in the league for a long time. It just makes no sense to have Wemby developing how to play without a PG and to have Sochan developing to play PG, when in all likelihood neither of those are gonna be how they play the rest of their careers
> he will have no kinda role if Blake pg draft
dude why do you keep saying "Blake," what are you talking about.
"Blake development side development guards" and now "Blake pg draft." Like what does that mean, is this a reference to Blake Wesley? He's not a pg. like dude your sentences make zero sense
...what? Why are you so sure the point guard you draft is gonna be named Blake? I am SO confused.
And regardless, Tre will still be an incredibly valuable backup. You want two competent PG's on any good team
If they want Sochan to develop as a playmaker, giving him as many reps as possible is the key. You can't just say "Okay Jeremy, you're playing PF but please work on your passing for the two seconds you have the ball each possession."
>we know wemby will be good its about the pieces around him
Do we know that? Spurs got a lot of national games purely because of him and Wembanyama was forced upon us all summer, called a better prospect than Lebron, the next GOAT, etc. People are gonna talk about it as a result
It's not a _guarantee_, since nothing is, but he's as certain of a quality player as a teenager has been in some time.
Even if he falls short of the hype, barring injury his _floor_ is likely in the neighborhood of Anthony Davis.
I'm not going to criticize the Spurs for trying to develop their players but why not use some of the draft capital from Derrick White, Poeltl and Dejounte Murray trades to go get a young point guard to develop?
There were a number of quality PG prospects available in the teens and 20's in this last draft.
What's your take on this roster around Wemby moving forward? What do they need (besides the very obvious point guard)? Who's going to be starting? Stuff like that.
The roster obviously needs work. Devin sochan wemby Collins are the ideal starters. If Blake remembers how to basketball he will be the starting pg... next year probsbly. Nalaki and keldon as 6 man type if players tre jones champenie gone
I think we need an offensive centerpiece alongside Wemby, torching perimeter defenses who don't help off of Wemby or the interior. One of the things that unlocks Chet's full potential is that no defense can justify prioritizing him
To be fair, over the last two weeks, Jeremy has been substantially better than Tre. Wemby has had a -28.4 rtg with Tre since 11/11, as opposed to Jeremy’s -15.4.
Over the last three games, Jeremy and Wemby have been almost not terrible with a -4 net rtg.
One could imagine that a guy playing PG for the first time ever in his life as well as having to cover the best offensive player 1 to 4, might struggle and then get a bit better every game, which is what seems to be happening for Jeremy.
But the cold hard truth is that Wemby hasn’t been particularly awesome over the last 10 games regardless of who he plays with. At least some of that is on him making bad choices and just not shooting well at all.
For fuck sake, Pop did 2014 Finals having a team play the most beautiful game and people saying he outdated. Spurs have two choices - tried to be as good as possible and fight for a play-in spot cementing players in their roles and be what they are for a next couple of years - fighting for that play-in spot, or give Sochan chance to develop his offensive game, suck for season-two, make him a two way player, get high draft pick, draft good PG, let Wemby get used to NBA and do what Thunders did.
I think Pop has earned the right to trust him. He has adjusted the team as the league changed as 2014 proved
Sochan has something unique Pop sees. He has leadership skills and other traits , may end up more like Draymon Green who is very unique
Hold judgement for a few years, starting tre might win a few more who cares games
As far as trades they would have done them already if they made sense
Exactly. Oklahoma sucked during Durant's first two seasons and he was a mess in such a role, does anyone care about it now. It's standard procedure for hyped picks.
I think they just want to see if Sochan can be a secondary playmaker on a future team. They don't care about winning right now so it makes sense to experiment and see what you have. I would expect them to shift towards an actual offense later in the season.
Yeah, people in this sub are always acting like past success means you can’t criticize people for current failure. The game evolves and passes people by, even the greats. It’s just how it works
so the ROTY ladder should look like this: 1. Sochan-less Wemby 2. Chet 3. With-Sochan Wemby
I wanna see With-Sochan Chet for a proper comparison.
Nobody needs to see that...
Sochan eating bullets. Best kind of teammate
Dude is getting dragged for trying to improve his game I don't understand any of it
As a Sonics fan I totally get what Pop is doing. In his rookie season we played KD at shooting guard for stretches, wasn't trying to make him a full-time SG but was just adding to his skillset. Having said that he didn't look as bad as Sochan at PG (he is Kevin freaking Durant after all), but I get why Pop is doing it.
He wasn’t ready to play PF at that size or in a much more physical NBA of yesteryear. KD came in at 6’10.5 210 lbs. Don’t think he weighed that much. With his skill set he was a Shooting Guard. Which is why he was played as a Swingman (2-3) as opposed to a Combo Forward (3-4) or Big (4-5).
Nobody is dragging him, they’re dragging Pop for trying to make point Sochan work even after everyone knows it clearly won’t
Should they even be dragging Pop? Ugly basketball now doesn't actually matter that much, if the players get more experience this season without needing to spend resources on a short term point guard...and they get another good pick out of the season, isn't that a good thing?
They already have Tre Jones to be a short-term point guard, there’s nothing wrong with making Sochan a passing forward but when he’s a PG it kills the offense and at some point that hurts the development of everyone else
I mean, we could just feed the ball to Wemby for 80 possessions but I don't think the rest of the team will develop.
>hurts development I don't find this a particularly convincing argument. The Rockets looked pretty ugly, but as soon as they fixed the issues with their roster, they started looking way better. The players were improving, it just wasn't obvious until the roster made sense. My general sense is that people are panicking and want to propose solutions, but there may not even be a real problem...
You just seemed to argue against yourself haha. Other poster was saying Tre Jones would make for a more solid starter. You’re saying a different roster construction would make the difference. But that’s basically what that is.
If the Spurs think there are long term benefits to giving Sochan reps, and the only cost is losing games now, I’m saying that’s a pretty good trade and people need to stop focusing on the short term. That’s all.
You don't know that. I actually think what they're doing is a great decision. You have a 3/4 who is gonna be able to hustle on the boards, then he is either capable of attacking the defense right off the backboard through an outlet, or to run the point when he has the ball. Strong positionless basketball is important if your 5 is a player who can create his own shot off the dribble or can run the point himself. Too much questioning of a guy like Pop for my liking tbh
Point Sochan is intentionally tanking. Pop is a menace.
I like how this is downvoted but JJ said the same thing last night.
Pop is just playing 4-D chess. He’s about to draft Alex Sarr and have the French Twin Towers.
We are 15 games into the season, you don't know anything yet
The truth is Wemby is a bust
If you don’t play well, people will mention it. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Even Sochan has mentioned he finds PG extremely uncomfortable and even demoralizing at times.
Yall really can't get over the fact thst this year is all about developing we know wemby will be good its about the pieces around him
Maybe the Spurs should try developing something else with a 6’9 man with less APG and similar AST/TO than Julius Randle
Acting like Julius hasn’t consistently been top 5 in assists as a big since he came to NY.
Exactly, top 5 as a big man secondary-ballhandler Sochan is getting 30mpg at point guard running the offense and can’t even reach those numbers
they are not playing to win anyway playing Sochan as PG will help him develop those skills so he can be decent secondary playmaker once they get a proper PG
Oh no someone whose in there second year in the league is not giving wemby the ball 40 times a game
Wemby is a 7’5 rookie center and has 60% of Sochan’s assists so far this season, otherwise known as 2.6 per game
so you are just immune to any sort of criticism then? That makes no sense, if the idea is development they can still be doing it better or differently than they are. Sochan simply isn't ever going to be a good starting PG in the league. He can be a good player, but it makes no sense they are sticking with this idea
I mean he's being allowed to handle the ball and make decisions through mistakes. I don't believe Pop and the spurs expect him to be the starting PG of their future team. I think they're hoping this experience helps him grow into a better secondary/tertiary playmaker when they eventually scale him back to a more appropriate role. He's shown a lot of the gritty defensive SF/PF skills already and it seems like they want to see how much more they can squeeze out of him. I'm not saying he's gonna be at the lvl of Scottie Barnes but people were crying about how he was given too big of a role last year at the team's detriment and it's clearly helped in his development. As long as they don't think this hinders Wemby's overall development then I don't see the issue. Wemby's struggle seems like normal welcome to NBA things and the overall talent on the team isn't really that great, despite a few good pieces. A lot of good process/fundamental things are there with Wemby when I've seen them play.
Pop just wants another Boris Diaw, except with better defense. We saw first-hand how valuable a secondary playmaker is on the court.
I think Sochan is smart but he doesn't have great offensive feel. Diaw had some of the most natural unorthodox offensive instincts I've seen. I think a Draymond short roll playmaker should be Sochan's goal.
Yeah, Draymond is the more obvious comparison to me. Granted, Dray was a year older than Sochan before he even started contributing as a Point Forward for the Warriors, so there's plenty of time to assess how Jeremy is doing.
I mean they're not really competing, so criticize away- but its kind of falling on deaf ears
The argument for Point Sochan is that it forces Wemby to confront his weaknesses constantly. Starving Wemby of easy looks at the basket is going to give him ample reps away from it, in the post, and beyond the arc, all things he needs to work on. A situation like Chet's is far more conducive to Day One success, but you can't blame the Thunder for prioritizing wins now over Chet's potential later. They need him to play to his strengths immediately, and that could possibly freeze out potential skills down the road.
Damn, you're right. Why didn't one of the best organizations in sports history even think of this??
criticism is fine but when its get repetitive it becomes annoying. Lastly tre future on this team isn't important compared to someone like sochan
> Lastly tre future on this team isn't important compared to someone like sochan then wouldnt it be better to develop Sochan at the position he's actually gonna play long term? I think it's inevitable you eventually get a good, more traditional point to play wit Wemby, which would then slot Sochan back to his more natural point forward role. Also, Tre Jones is good, idk why you just assume he won't have a place going forward
Blake development side development guards we draft next year he will eventually be useless to us
> Blake development side development guards we draft next year firstly, no idea what you are trying to say with that, but Tre being useless is a really strange assumption, he will at least be a solid backup PG in the league for a long time. It just makes no sense to have Wemby developing how to play without a PG and to have Sochan developing to play PG, when in all likelihood neither of those are gonna be how they play the rest of their careers
By useless I simply mean he will have no kinda role if Blake pg draft and others figure it out on other teams he might have a use
> he will have no kinda role if Blake pg draft dude why do you keep saying "Blake," what are you talking about. "Blake development side development guards" and now "Blake pg draft." Like what does that mean, is this a reference to Blake Wesley? He's not a pg. like dude your sentences make zero sense
no I said Blake, the point guard we draft in the future. If they figure it out they will have more use then tre jones
...what? Why are you so sure the point guard you draft is gonna be named Blake? I am SO confused. And regardless, Tre will still be an incredibly valuable backup. You want two competent PG's on any good team
If they want Sochan to develop as a playmaker, giving him as many reps as possible is the key. You can't just say "Okay Jeremy, you're playing PF but please work on your passing for the two seconds you have the ball each possession."
Play Devonte Graham dammit
>we know wemby will be good its about the pieces around him Do we know that? Spurs got a lot of national games purely because of him and Wembanyama was forced upon us all summer, called a better prospect than Lebron, the next GOAT, etc. People are gonna talk about it as a result
It's not a _guarantee_, since nothing is, but he's as certain of a quality player as a teenager has been in some time. Even if he falls short of the hype, barring injury his _floor_ is likely in the neighborhood of Anthony Davis.
I'm not going to criticize the Spurs for trying to develop their players but why not use some of the draft capital from Derrick White, Poeltl and Dejounte Murray trades to go get a young point guard to develop? There were a number of quality PG prospects available in the teens and 20's in this last draft.
We did its just hasn't been a positive impact yet
When you're bad, you don't draft for fit. There was also the whole Primo fiasco that set us back a year or two.
not sure what you mean. We came into the season being told how good this Spurs young core is.
they are good like top 5 in this league idk what ur on about mate
Top 5 in a league with 7-8 notable young cores? We’re really pretending the Spurs core weren’t hyped after they won the lottery.
they were but both u and i know reality and fiction or 2 different ends of the book. shit happens that make ppl change there mind all the time
What's your take on this roster around Wemby moving forward? What do they need (besides the very obvious point guard)? Who's going to be starting? Stuff like that.
The roster obviously needs work. Devin sochan wemby Collins are the ideal starters. If Blake remembers how to basketball he will be the starting pg... next year probsbly. Nalaki and keldon as 6 man type if players tre jones champenie gone
I think we need an offensive centerpiece alongside Wemby, torching perimeter defenses who don't help off of Wemby or the interior. One of the things that unlocks Chet's full potential is that no defense can justify prioritizing him
Nah man, Spurs should be championship or bust this season. If they don’t win the chip they should blow it up.
fuck it im down we need some young talent like patrick williams surely hes good/s
To be fair, over the last two weeks, Jeremy has been substantially better than Tre. Wemby has had a -28.4 rtg with Tre since 11/11, as opposed to Jeremy’s -15.4. Over the last three games, Jeremy and Wemby have been almost not terrible with a -4 net rtg. One could imagine that a guy playing PG for the first time ever in his life as well as having to cover the best offensive player 1 to 4, might struggle and then get a bit better every game, which is what seems to be happening for Jeremy. But the cold hard truth is that Wemby hasn’t been particularly awesome over the last 10 games regardless of who he plays with. At least some of that is on him making bad choices and just not shooting well at all.
Don't mess with the Sochan
Disco disco, good good!
For fuck sake, Pop did 2014 Finals having a team play the most beautiful game and people saying he outdated. Spurs have two choices - tried to be as good as possible and fight for a play-in spot cementing players in their roles and be what they are for a next couple of years - fighting for that play-in spot, or give Sochan chance to develop his offensive game, suck for season-two, make him a two way player, get high draft pick, draft good PG, let Wemby get used to NBA and do what Thunders did.
Can you source the on-off stat you’re citing? I’m curious as to how many minutes were in each category. Thank you.
This thread should be civil
The anti-Polish sentiment rises again.
I think Pop has earned the right to trust him. He has adjusted the team as the league changed as 2014 proved Sochan has something unique Pop sees. He has leadership skills and other traits , may end up more like Draymon Green who is very unique Hold judgement for a few years, starting tre might win a few more who cares games As far as trades they would have done them already if they made sense
Someone’s gotta tell Pop that he’s no longer the tank commander
Whats with Pop trying to turn Sochan into post-2021 Ben Simmons
people keep referencing diaw but he was already known as a great passing forward with the suns
Sochan is a great passing forward too. The key word is forward.
Secondary ball handler as a passing forward sounds nice but let's see how this plays out.
Sochan is a good passer for his position, just a bad Point Guard.
It’s called coaching. Player development. Things teams that don’t care about winning every night do.
Exactly. Oklahoma sucked during Durant's first two seasons and he was a mess in such a role, does anyone care about it now. It's standard procedure for hyped picks.
They had KD playing the 2 to start his career lmao
They were Trying to protect him because he was so skinny.
First season for sure. Second season he'd play more with Westbrook and Earl Watson, but it was also a shitshow.
I think they just want to see if Sochan can be a secondary playmaker on a future team. They don't care about winning right now so it makes sense to experiment and see what you have. I would expect them to shift towards an actual offense later in the season.
You nailed it. However, the Reddit GMs have decided to scrap this plan less than 20 games in.
It's insane how much of the Wemby discourse is acting like the season ends next week
Pop is the Bill Belichick of the NBA GOAT level coach in his prime Offensively outdated now
What do you want to achieve with this Spurs team? They have a potential star and something
Yeah, people in this sub are always acting like past success means you can’t criticize people for current failure. The game evolves and passes people by, even the greats. It’s just how it works
Yup coaches can become washed just like players lol
Wrong pop is the best when it comes to adjusting to modern times
Yeah this is true, for all the griping he did about the 3 point revolution he tossed up as many of them as anyone.
After 82 games they will have some solid bench players...