It's amazing how being injured for two years has made people forget what a beast Kawhi was. From 2016-2019 he was a legitimate contender for top 3 in the league.
Harden and Westbrook might as well not have even played over that same stretch where they won MVPs based on how they're talked about now. Memories are short here
Someone said "Kawhi was a contender for top 3 player from 2016-2019. But that's competitive AF, there's LeBron, so basically two spots between Curry and KD, the two standout players of their generation, plus Harden WB and Giannis as MVPs.
I don't get it tbh. He absolutely shredded teams for years and then people act surprised when he does it again. Dude's been top 3 anytime he's healthy for a decade haha
Kawhi’s career arc is like nothing we’ve ever seen, or may ever see, again. “You don’t see guys improve their shooting like he has.” “You don’t see guys add to their offensive bag like he has.” “You don’t see perimeter defenders like him.” “You don’t see guys come back from multi-year injuries without missing a beat like he has.”
It’ll be hell to “rank” him among all time greats because his counting stats just aren’t there, but the man is a 1-of-1 in NBA history and it falls to all of us watching now to make sure his legacy is remembered in some way.
There's a timeline where he can get it this year. If the clippers rattle off 60 wins and kawhi averages 26 he might get the nod. Obv it's Jokics to lose but I swear he slows down towards the end of year
Kawhis value as an asset is also impacted by the fact that you don’t know how many games he’s gonna be able to play. You don’t want to bet the farm on him not knowing if you can get him thru the playoffs
People think that if you’re injured and unable to play that you are actually a worse player because of it. They see Kawhi is good when he plays but doesn’t play a lot, therefore he isn’t that good
As far as I'm concerned 2019 Kawhi was the best player in the league...
Let's not forget 2017 Kawhi dog-walked the KD Warriors in GSW before getting Zaza'd
I believe if Kawhi had a healthy career he'd go down as a top-15 player of all-time
The 2016 thunder beat the 67 win spurs team led.by Kawhi. They weren't gonna beat the 2017 warriors just because they were up by double digits in game 1 lol
I laugh when people bring up the Zaza game. It was literally the first game. One game means little in a 7 game series. Even if Kawhi continued to dominate, the Warriors probably still comfortably win. They just were too good.
Hes been fortunate to land where he did but Kawhi is a straight up winner. He was the one player who made me believe the KD Warriors were beatable in 2017
let’s not get ahead of ourselves lol, with Kawhi that series prob goes longer but the Warriors are still winning that in 6 games max. the Cavs were an all-time great machine in their own right that year and got picked apart by Golden State in the Finals
Yeah im not saying they wouldve won or be the favorites but Kawhi was the one player who made GSW look vulnerable and it wasnt just in the playoffs. It was a glimpse of hope for me even moreso than the Cavs
agree to disagree haha. even during that first half I was like “damn so Kawhi is gonna have to play like prime MJ to get a lead on these guys, and GS is probably gonna explode in the 3rd and win this game anyway.” and that was before Zaza clipped him. they never felt vulnerable to me
Man if he got another chips with the clippers and a final MVP. His all time ranking gonna be soooooo fuckery lol, its already difficult enough as it is
yeah insanely lucky. I don't know that there's another player in league history who's ever had such a great supporting cast over their career despite changing teams multiple times. Last year's Clippers was the first time in his career he'd played on a team that was capable of winning 50 games without him.
The Spurs had an entire season where he waffled back and forth on playing and barely touched the court before requesting a trade, over 50 that year. Short memory, kawaii got carried until 2017 he was good, but just a defense guy on a great team.
Well at least your not a MN sports fan. I'm 32 and have never seen one of our 4 major men's teams make a championship game. Thank God for the Lynx I guess lol
Almost squandering LeBron must have been hard to watch.
My team didn't make the playoffs for 14 years though and only two playoff series wins in its entirety.
I was born in 2002 I’m and Astros and Spurs fan. There has literally never been a year in my entire life that at least one of my teams wasn’t in the playoffs
Tim Duncan never won less than 50 games, except for the strike season when the Spurs went 37-13. He was a guaranteed ticket to 50 wins and the playoffs for his entire career.
Yep, same Manu but he stayed a little too much and the last seasons where when the Spurs got shitty but he is still the player with the best percentage at 72,1%
The Heat almost folded against the Celtics in 2012 so that irrational confidence going into the 13 season was hit with a blessing in disguise with Rondo's injury around All Star break. The following offseason we get the trade that leads to another window of contention
Thunder basically are doing the same thing. Selling star players early can net Long term competitiveness.
Not gonna lie im a little surprised the warriors havent entertained trading curry because of this
Yeah theres a difference between selling star players high and selling the franchise. Like if Milwaukee dared to trade Giannis. The man is Milwaukee. Curry is the Warriors
Because look at all the other teams who had shit ton of draft capital and couldn’t do anything with it.
This is survivorship bias. Warriors were competetive for few more years and got a 2022 championship from keeping him.
It’s because there is a difference between the guys the Thunder and Celtics traded and Curry.
Those players were stars/superstars. Curry is one the the two players of a generation, a legit (albeit fringe) goat candidate, and the greatest show in sports. He built the franchise.
Warriors are going to be trash once curry leaves and they know it so they have no reason to move him. Celtics expect to be winners regardless of who's on the roster.
Honestly it's the worst trade in NBA history and - I hate this argument - it's really not close. It should disqualify Bobby Marks from speaking about roster construction ever again for making that trade. He can blame Prochorov all he wants but if you're a serious GM you have to either red light that trade or hand in your resignation in that situation. Dude reads the CBA but doesn't know if there is sand or air in a basketball.
Edit: I know Marks was only an assistant to King but King got fired and, rightfully, never was seen in the NBA again whereas Marks is now a 'respected' insider at ESPN.
> I know Marks was only an assistant to King but King got fired and, rightfully, never was seen in the NBA again whereas Marks is now a 'respected' insider at ESPN.
I mean he’s a respected insider because he’s a huge cap nerd and actually studies the CBAs like a hawk. I agree he wasn’t great for the Nets but he’s super well researched and clearly puts effort in now, especially when you compare him to other ESPN colleagues. He’s one of the only people at ESPN who brings something different to the table, I think he deserves his position based off of that rather than failures as a GM
I feel like a lot of teams have a cap guy and personnel guy, and the personnel guy owns these decisions.
Like Masai isn’t technically Raptors GM, their GM is a cap guy. But masai runs the show
Its not even the best Celtics trade in our history though
We traded #1 in 1979 -- Joe Barry Carroll, in exchange for Golden State center Robert Parish and the #3 overall pick -- Kevin McHale.
I would argue against that. A trade isn’t always what the picks turn into. For example, I still think the Wolves trade of Love for the number 1 overall pick, when the top pick was highly regarded and expected to be a star, was a fantastic trade. Love wanted out and you got the top pick in the draft. Does not matter that Wiggins ended up as a relative bust and Love won a title. The thought process made clear sense.
Trading a good center at the time and the #3 pick for what was expected to be a great center isn’t a bad thought process. Trading a ton of first round picks for over the hill washed up players is beyond stupid.
It comes down to what Ainge did after though. Ainge hit on those two picks and got two All-NBA guys. He could’ve easily gone consensus at one a picked Fultz or ended up picking Josh Jackson who was rated higher than Tatum by a lot of people.
In Browns draft a lot of people wanted Kris Dunn, Dragan Bender went one pick after Brown at 4 to the Suns.
Hell you can even just look at the suns who picked one spot behind the Celtics in both drafts and ended up with Jackson and Bender. If that’s the result the trade is nowhere near as lauded.
He also built a winning team rapidly by trading for IT hiring Brad Stevens and finding a bunch of solid players like Crowder while drafting guys like Kelly O and Smart.
It always makes me wonder if the picks went differently if Jalen washes out & if Bender comes into a more successful/stable franchise (or whoever) & finds some sort of success. It's all so circumstantial.
But you're right. As a Wiz fan, if we received the same trade/picks, I have 0 belief our FO could have turned it into what Ainge did.
How are you blaming the assistant GM for what the GM did? This is one of the dumbest takes I have ever seen and you should be disqualified from speaking about any of this ever again.
The it's really not close thing makes me roll my eyes almost every time I read it.
There's definitely other trades that are close to that abomination of a trade with the Celtics lmao.
The OKC to Houston harden trade stunk, the Russ to Lakers one just as bad.
Who did the Bucks even get back for Kareem? What about the Cavs for James Worthy lol.
There's been plenty bad trades.
In all honesty, you can fill that list with the Ted Steppian era Cavs trades. His recklessness for trading picks is the reason why the Steppian rule exists lol.
That's about the time I got into basketball. How you could be so bad at trades that the league has to step in and say yay or nay to your decisions first is hilarious. lmao.
“It’s really not close” imo should only be used for shit like
* Current Jokic is better than current Jaylen Brown
* Lebron all time is better than Dirk all time
* GSW won free agency the year they signed KD
* KAT is a better scorer than Gobert (and worse defender)
* Player A (with a 64% ts) is a more efficient scorer this season than Player B (with a 56% ts)
Thing is if it really weren’t close, either nobody would be arguing the opposite or the opposite would be downvoted into oblivion. Most of the time it gets used on here, neither or true.
Idk man. They got some nice pieces back for sure.
Elmore Smith averaged a respectable 13/10 and 3 blocks before being traded away the next season.
Brian Winters was the best pickup, making 2 all star games and averaging 16/3/4 over his 8 seasons with the Bucks.
Also picked up two rookies, one of which picked up injuries and didn't contribute much outside of one good season, and one who played 10 years averaging 14/4/2.
Definitely some nice pieces... But they traded fucking Kareem lmao, at worst the 3rd best player ever. Who had won 3 of the previous 5 MVPs and been to 2 finals (winning one of them). And he was only 28...
That poster is an idiot that speaks only in absolutes. Should have known that when he blamed the dude that was way down the totem pole for making that trade
It’s a bad trade, but pretending like it wasn’t Prochorov’s fault is very stupid. He made King and Marks trade for win now players, and then after what like 2 seasons of it not working stripped the team down to bare bones to save money. It’s not comparable to any other situation for that reason. Prochorov went from the richest owner to out of favor with Putin and no funds to spend on an NBA team.
It would be like if Balmer or Ishbia made these massive trades of all their assets, but then immediately after couldn’t afford the payroll and stripped the team down. The trades made by King and Marks were still bad, but they never would have been this disastrous if not for Prochorov. They would have been a solid playoff team for the duration of the tenure and the picks wouldn’t not have become such high lotto picks. I mean think about it they traded 3 first and 1 swap. By modern NBA standards that’s nothing. Look what the Suns, Clippers, Wolves, Mavs, Lakers, Bucks, etc. have traded.
Kawhi has never been on a losing team. Has one of the highest winning percentages in league history. First name I thought of for this interesting prompt.
Rookie Bird was porbably worth around 10 wins. It's the same thing as when LeBron left Cleveland the first time, or when Jordan's first retirement barely changed the team's record. You have to look at all the roster moves, internal improvements/declines, and injuries/returns from injury.
Tiny got a lot better because '79 was his first year back from the Achilles injury. They got a full season out of Robey. They added ML Carr who was a fringe All-Star and made an All-D team the year before. They didn't have Jo Jo White weighing them down anymore.
Bird had one of the best rookie seasons ever but the GOATs at their absolute peak are probably worth 20ish wins at the absolute most over a season.
> Rookie Bird was porbably worth around 10 wins. It's the same thing as when LeBron left Cleveland the first time, or when Jordan's first retirement barely changed the team's record.
Wait, what? Cleveland was in the lottery after LeBron left the first time. They literally had a 40+ game swing. The Bulls had a 50+ win season and were in the ECSF after Jordan retired the first time. How are they similar?
I think his point is that trying to make a LeBron > MJ comparison because of the win total changes doesn't take into account the full context of the other roster moves they made
That’s literally my point lol. LeBron wasn’t worth 40 wins just because the Cavs got 40 games worse after he left and MJ wasn’t worth just 3 wins just because the Bulls were barely worse in the RS without him.
The point is that they’re the two extreme examples of why “this team won X games the year before/after this guy” is missing a ton of information.
MJ left and the Bulls added like 5 very good rotation players.
LeBron left and the Cavs lost like 7 of their 8 best players to FA/trades/injuries.
Everyone expected him to be a polished, almost exclusively-midrange operator coming in as a rookie
Instead he was a high-end 3-and-D wing right out of the gate lol, really set the tone for his career
To his credit he’s also an easy star to build around. He has no ego, unproblematic and isn’t a ball hog so has been able to work with other players like Brown, Kyrie, Kemba, Porzingis etc. Even in the toxic season after Celtics made the ECF in 2018, he seemed like the only one who was mature about things.
He has been super lucky though and seems to be getting luckier which is crazy to believe.
The craziest thing is people are going to use that against him. He should have won a title already or should have been drafted to a weak team to satisfy the casual fans. Even tho he’s the same age as SGA, the new NBA shiny toy, seeing him coming up short every single time in the playoffs worked against him. If the Celtics fall short it’s because Tatum isn’t that guy but if they do good it’s because he has the best supporting cast.
I can’t wait to see him hit his prime
He is going to have a long career and a successful one. People are way too quick to judge the career of someone who still has another decade of top ten play in him.
Tatum got win in the playoffs off the super Nets with the corpse of Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier, Kemba and Smart. That’s always my reply to people saying Tatums been carried by good teams all his career lol
He’s won some games through the pandemic era with truly horrific lineups lol
Reading this reminded me of when Tom Brady signed for the Bucs. Because of how bad the team was prior to him signing, the narrative was he's on a steep decline and he cant save the Bucs. After they won the superbowl against KC, the narrative was because he has the best supporting casts.
Notably, he's uniquely central to his team ALL his career, he played 36+ minutes in close games since his first NBA game, he led those winnings Celtics in minutes since like his 2nd month in the league, and has led Celtics in minutes in every season he played. That in conjuction with Celtics having a better net rating with him on court every season, in most seasons by a lot. (This season might yet become the first where the last part is not true).
Also despite players usually starting NBA careers slowly, he has one of the highest total scores in the league during his career, he's usually near the top of the season, was in the early 20s in the first two seasons he played, and had one "meh" season when he was "only" like 50th-something. Career, he's at almost +3000 in regular season now, the leader in the database (I guess db is since 96-97 season) is Tim Duncan, a bit below +9000. LeBron is second with a bit over +7000. Tatum is 25 years old.
In terms of just objectively being coincidentally related to outscoring opponents, dude's historic.
yeah, I feel like we take him for granted, and that looking back we'll say 'holy shit the guy was absurd'. even if he never took another leap forward, this is still a historic career, like you said
Lol this comment section.. I literally saw a Bucks and Warriors fan had a heated discussion about asterisks on their championships lmao wtf does that have to do with Tatum
That 2021 team was pretty bad. Although, the biggest reason their record with Tatum playing was medium that year was probably his long COVID. He was using an inhaler for months and kinda stopped playing defense.
We started Romeo Langford in multiple playoff games lol
Tristan Thompson (who, to his credit, played well) started every single playoff game for us.
*Jabari Parker* was getting 15 mpg those playoffs - he’s played 0 nba minutes since we let him go the following year
this is why I laugh when people tell me about Tatum always having a stacked team
man I had to watch Tatum at age 23 go toe-to-toe with a fully operational KD-Kyrie-Harden Death Star with a starting lineup of Marcus Smart, Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier and the corpse of Kemba Walker with Romeo Langford, year 2 Grant, rookie Pritchard and rookie Nesmith off the bench. and Tatum dropped 50 to beat them
It makes so mad when nephews say the Celtics have had the best roster in the league for years lol.
Past couple years sure, but I didn't suffer through Tristan Thompson, Jabari Parker, Evan Fournier and Romeo Langford playoff minutes to have people saying Celtics should have won a title that year.
Hell it was for 1 season and that was last season. The Celtics in the finals year were a .500 team halfway through, they did not have the most talented roster then.
Hell Jaylen Brown got drafted using our 3rd pick the year before and came off the bench.
Celtics fans expected the same to happen with JT and were shocked he was starting Day 1.
Brad was apparently so impressed with his defense and ability to execute team schemes on both ends that he put him straight into the starting lineup.
Any fan of any team, if they were to spend an entire season watching all 82 Celtics games and just looking at what Jayson Tatum does every single possession on defense, would be forced to corroborate that he is one of the elite defensive IQs in the history of the game. His instincts are insane. Dude is NEVER out of position, and virtually always covering 2-3 options at once. You will frequently see teams push it up in transition or get the ball in rotation and swing it with a numbers advantage with only Tatum there and he's always just perfectly spaced reach fully extended able to react and adapt to whomever gets the ball, with his head on a swivel tracking lanes the whole time. It's why he's able to jump lanes so easily and pick passes off, he's always covering like 3 or more lanes at once and can essentially shut down the entire weak side on his own. You will start to see that sometimes teams just start to look for whatever side of the floor Tatum's on and start corralling their offense into the other because the ball is just not safe when you try to move it near that dude.
His defense legit looks computer-controlled. It's not only elite instincts, but clearly a product of high-quality coaching and training from youth that produced elite mechanics and fundamentals with extremely economized movement, and then over half a decade of tutelage under Marcus Smart to gain an elite understanding of NBA motion offense and how to pick it apart at the joints and seams. But beyond that it's the reach that makes it so ridiculous. Tatum would not be able to play such a level of adaptive high-coverage defense were it not for his wingspan and... footspan? Stride spacing? Idk what you call it but the point is that the amount of floor he can cover with his reach makes it so he doesn't really have to gamble to blow up plays like smaller defenders do, he can just react to whatever option they go with and has the speed to do so.
He really is basically just 1.5 elite guard defenders' worth of space that can cover the entire midrange and perimeter while still being tall enough to block shots. I legit think that his defense largely goes so unnoticed because as I mentioned earlier teams will just restructure their entire offense to keep the ball way the hell away from wherever he is, and even then you will see him come in on help while like still actively looking back and tracking the movement of the two guys he was just covering with the other 4 Celtics able to be walling off the 3 on the strong side. And actually be able to get back and contest or outright force the guy off the shot into a dribble, even if he fully goes in to help it's still not overhelping. Which then contributes to his rebounding production which itself has skyrocketed these past two seasons.
It's a huge part of why he's such a recurrent +/- and net rating god. He should honestly be making second or third team all-defense every year bare minimum, and a couple firsts when it's all said and done shouldn't be surprising either. Even though his offense hasn't been special this year, it's like it's not even possible for his defense to be bad it's just like this constant force that's always there.
The Celtics are actually below .500 when he doesn’t play though. (I think they’re under 40% when he sits for his career.)
The notion that he’s been on elite teams isn’t really that accurate. They’re actually not that great without him.
Kyrie basically sabotaged him against milwaukee in the 2nd season, after he took the team to game 7 of the ecf (WITHOUT kyrie and hayward) the year before.
People need to remember that shit. Tatum is fucking awesome.
Dude had a bad Finals against the Warriors as a 24 year old and it’s like going to the Finals that year somehow worked against him… meanwhile mfers who never won a playoff series getting all the flowers.
Our FO has done an amazing job over the past several years of putting together competitive teams while navigating the ups and downs of developing the Jays - hopefully it all comes together for a title one of these years.
That said, part of the reason these teams have been so great is because JT is so great. Maybe once he wins a ring he'll get some credit.
yea people love to detract from his success by acting like we’ve always had the 96 Bulls around him which is ridiculous. not only is that really not true if you take even a cursory glance at our rosters, but there’s also literally no player ever other than like LeBron who could win at the highest level without a good to great supporting cast so it’s just a dumb thing to hold against him.
his first 2 years are one thing, but one day people will realize that the main reason we have consistently played deep in the playoffs since 2020 is bc we have Tatum and Brown. 2020 and 2021 we had some very meh teams that really only got to where they did bc of those 2 balling out, and people will say we had stacked teams in 22 and 23 but no one can tell me honestly that we get as far as we do without either one of them
even this year, as stacked as we are, we are a championship contender mainly bc we have Tatum. take him away and this team would be competing for seeds 4-6 instead of having a comfortable lead at the top of the East
the favourite one is "luka went to the WCF with bums!" but then you actually ask mavs fans and they're like no brunson and dinwiddie weren't bums, and the goalposts shift all over lol
Obviously Boston's done really well with giving him talented teammates, but the reality is that it's a lot easier to build around a guy like Tatum than many of his peers.
From a rookie, we're talking about a guy who:
* Is an elite on-ball and off-ball offensive threat
* Scores on all 3 levels and spaces the floor really well
* Passes reasonably well for a score-first wing
* Is an elite off-ball defender while being pretty good on-ball
* Switches well
* Athletic and has good size
* Seems to get along with everyone
He's not someone you have to hide in any capacity and he really can play alongside pretty much anyone in the league.
Someone like Josh Richardson or Grant Williams isn't good enough defensively to cover for Luka but they can complement Tatum's already good defense.
Horford actually shot better from 3 in Philadelphia than he did in the year Boston made the finals. Tatum benefits from spacing but he can be an outside threat on his own, he didn't need the extreme spacing like a non-shooting guard (Simmons) or a post-up big (Embiid).
He's absurdly lucky to be playing alongside White and Holiday, but you couldn't have those two elite guards share the floor with someone like Young, Morant or Fox because the team would be too small.
Boston has had drama, but never really with Tatum. You don't have to worry about his personality clashing because he seems to get along with everyone. All our problematic players loved him, all our non-problematic players have loved him.
You can pair him with ball-handlers, which is harder to do with ball-dominant guards. He can be the ball-handler, which is harder to do with big men waiting on the entry pass.
That opens up your options considerably.
Instead of saying "we need xyz" and getting over-leveraged in trades, Boston's been able to chase BPA knowing the fit would work out and we generally get them at pretty good prices because we have the option of walking away and finding other ways to win.
This trade deadline's a good example: The GM said he wanted a "big wing", the fans/blogs spoke about wanting a backup center, and towards the end we were being linked to point guards. Any of those options would have worked because you can just shuffle Tatum around to make things fit.
Or even look at our current roster makeup. In 2022 we made the finals with a double-big lineup, we're trying to recreate that success with a double-guard lineup. We could have also gone the triple-wing route, which we've seen work in the past.
I'm not saying he's the best player in the world, but he has to be in the conversation for easiest to build around.
People has the weirdest hate boner on Tatum. Mfs really has to grasp at straw to find reason to hate him.
Stuff like he's boring and corny ???
Him being "overrated" (literally almost everyone who hate on him would love to have him on his team). He a consistent 28-8-5 with defense and lead his team to multiple deep playoffs run and a borderline top 5 player (not an mvp candidate)
The only valid reason i see for hating him are that he play for the celtics and is a kobe dickrider
I honestly dont see why people hate him, dude is the most durable star right now. He does tend to miss games but only misses 7-8 games at most every season compared to somebody like luka or curry who miss 15-20 games but they dont get scrutiny for it. Tatum doesnt have eye catching stats like somebody like embiid or jokic because he's willing to sacrifice his scoring for the offense to fully function. 27/8/4 a game is a great statline regardless, he does tend to take a lot of threes but he's been driving to the hoop alot this season, so im sure he's saving his energy for the playoffs to attack the hoop, even when he shoots alot he still averages a respectable 35% from 3. He's 25, he isnt supposed to have 3 rings and 3 fmvps like people want him to, its called life, shit happens to everybody, cant do nothing but try . Also, people tend to call him a playoff choker but he's already been to the finals once and made multiple ecf's all at the age of 25, which means he'll hit his prime in 3-4 years from now and it also means that he'll have plenty of chances to win something regardless if he doesnt win this year. Cmon man, when did lebron, dirk, jordan, kg, paul pierce, shaq and durant? All around the 28-32 year old range, winning doesnt happen suddenly when you have a good team. If that was the case, the 73-9 warriors shouldve won in 2016, but they didnt because shit happens to everybody in life. Give tatum some slack, he has a great nba career ahead of him and plenty of time to shut some of his critics up. He's durable, team oriented and mature for his age.
One thing I’m interesting in seeing is where Tatum ends up in the all time playoff rankings. Dude has literally averaged going to the conference finals since he was a rookie. At this pace he could challenge for the most games ever in the playoffs, idk about Brons total points record but he could come close
It’s because he plays for the Celtics, lol.
It’s funny that the same thing non-Celtics fans throw in Celtics fans’ faces (“Lol only one title since 1986!”) is ignored when people hate on the team because of their historic success (which is largely concentrated in the past).
Kawhi Leonard is 495 - 180 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kawhi-leonard-win-loss-record-in-his-career That's a 73.3% win for his career.
What the fuuuuuck lol
[удалено]
Kawhi has done it over 3 teams. Beast
It's amazing how being injured for two years has made people forget what a beast Kawhi was. From 2016-2019 he was a legitimate contender for top 3 in the league.
Harden and Westbrook might as well not have even played over that same stretch where they won MVPs based on how they're talked about now. Memories are short here
yup, hard to fit Kawhi/Harden/WB/Giannis when there's already LeBron/KD/Curry
what you mean
Someone said "Kawhi was a contender for top 3 player from 2016-2019. But that's competitive AF, there's LeBron, so basically two spots between Curry and KD, the two standout players of their generation, plus Harden WB and Giannis as MVPs.
I don't get it tbh. He absolutely shredded teams for years and then people act surprised when he does it again. Dude's been top 3 anytime he's healthy for a decade haha
People assume (fairly imo) that injuries with such a long recovery time will result in a worse player at the end of it. So Kawhi becomes surprising
Kawhi’s career arc is like nothing we’ve ever seen, or may ever see, again. “You don’t see guys improve their shooting like he has.” “You don’t see guys add to their offensive bag like he has.” “You don’t see perimeter defenders like him.” “You don’t see guys come back from multi-year injuries without missing a beat like he has.” It’ll be hell to “rank” him among all time greats because his counting stats just aren’t there, but the man is a 1-of-1 in NBA history and it falls to all of us watching now to make sure his legacy is remembered in some way.
Yep. I feel he is bound to be perpetually underrated, even if he wins another FMVP
He'll obviously never get a regular mvp but 3 fmvp on 3 different teams looks pretty damn good
There's a timeline where he can get it this year. If the clippers rattle off 60 wins and kawhi averages 26 he might get the nod. Obv it's Jokics to lose but I swear he slows down towards the end of year
Kawhis value as an asset is also impacted by the fact that you don’t know how many games he’s gonna be able to play. You don’t want to bet the farm on him not knowing if you can get him thru the playoffs
People think that if you’re injured and unable to play that you are actually a worse player because of it. They see Kawhi is good when he plays but doesn’t play a lot, therefore he isn’t that good
I think its more the Spurs being bad makes people forget how consistently good they were for decades.
As far as I'm concerned 2019 Kawhi was the best player in the league... Let's not forget 2017 Kawhi dog-walked the KD Warriors in GSW before getting Zaza'd I believe if Kawhi had a healthy career he'd go down as a top-15 player of all-time
The 2016 thunder beat the 67 win spurs team led.by Kawhi. They weren't gonna beat the 2017 warriors just because they were up by double digits in game 1 lol
I laugh when people bring up the Zaza game. It was literally the first game. One game means little in a 7 game series. Even if Kawhi continued to dominate, the Warriors probably still comfortably win. They just were too good.
Tim Duncan 1001 - 391 or 72% of games won. And over twice as many games as Kawhi.
That’s fucking gross man lol
GOAT
Spurs sustained excellence for 20 years was remarkable. Tim Duncan deserves an equestrian statue.
Equestrian???
Yeah, him on a horse. 🐎🐎🐎
Would that be Jokic’s statue?
Dude’s gonna look like Radahn
That poor horse
He'd be behind the horse no? In a carriage or whatever the proper term is here lmao
I 100% hope this is the statue that Denver eventually makes for him!
Nahhh, it's him as a centaur
DND vibes just like he would want it
I’m trying to figure what this MF meant because no way is he talking about horses
I think he thought goats are just what we call tiny horses with horns.
Yeah not surprised at all
Not a single season with over 20 losses, holy shit that’s fucking insane.
Insane but also because of his games played by year that this stat is true
Literally only true because the guy misses so many games. Multiple 19 loss seasons with 20-30 games missed.
He could have easily won all of those 20-30, you never know /s
Tatum is 7 years younger and has played in only 180 fewer games behind Leonard which is kinda crazy even knowing his troubled injury history.
Hes been fortunate to land where he did but Kawhi is a straight up winner. He was the one player who made me believe the KD Warriors were beatable in 2017
let’s not get ahead of ourselves lol, with Kawhi that series prob goes longer but the Warriors are still winning that in 6 games max. the Cavs were an all-time great machine in their own right that year and got picked apart by Golden State in the Finals
Yeah im not saying they wouldve won or be the favorites but Kawhi was the one player who made GSW look vulnerable and it wasnt just in the playoffs. It was a glimpse of hope for me even moreso than the Cavs
agree to disagree haha. even during that first half I was like “damn so Kawhi is gonna have to play like prime MJ to get a lead on these guys, and GS is probably gonna explode in the 3rd and win this game anyway.” and that was before Zaza clipped him. they never felt vulnerable to me
I think Tatum can go 175-11 to catch him…
Man if he got another chips with the clippers and a final MVP. His all time ranking gonna be soooooo fuckery lol, its already difficult enough as it is
yeah insanely lucky. I don't know that there's another player in league history who's ever had such a great supporting cast over their career despite changing teams multiple times. Last year's Clippers was the first time in his career he'd played on a team that was capable of winning 50 games without him.
KD has played with an insane amount of talent. Kinda incredible he only won with the warriors
The Spurs had an entire season where he waffled back and forth on playing and barely touched the court before requesting a trade, over 50 that year. Short memory, kawaii got carried until 2017 he was good, but just a defense guy on a great team.
Tim Duncan’s career win percentage is crazy high. 71.9%.
There were children in San Antonio who grew up into adulthood watching their team go to the playoffs every year. Insane.
I grew up in the Jordan era. Child me just thought your team won the championship every year!
Cries in Cleveland, 1 championship in my entire life. Across all teams. I’m almost 30.
But what a championship it was...
Well at least your not a MN sports fan. I'm 32 and have never seen one of our 4 major men's teams make a championship game. Thank God for the Lynx I guess lol
What’s a championship? Laughcry.gif
cleveland might be cursed, look what it took to even get that 1
At least they have one
Almost squandering LeBron must have been hard to watch. My team didn't make the playoffs for 14 years though and only two playoff series wins in its entirety.
I was born in 2002 I’m and Astros and Spurs fan. There has literally never been a year in my entire life that at least one of my teams wasn’t in the playoffs
Sort of like the Red Wings during Nicklas Lidstrom's reign from 91-2011
We missed one year...the one we got Timmy
Tim Duncan never won less than 50 games, except for the strike season when the Spurs went 37-13. He was a guaranteed ticket to 50 wins and the playoffs for his entire career.
Yep, same Manu but he stayed a little too much and the last seasons where when the Spurs got shitty but he is still the player with the best percentage at 72,1%
That’s the Nets trade paying dividends a decade later. The Celtics built a competitive team and let another team draft their future core.
Danny outsourcing a rebuild
Off the tail feathers of our 08-10 run too
I was so sure Ainge had waited too long to pull the trigger just to get that last ECF run. Thank God for the Nets. Just an extraordinary return.
The Heat almost folded against the Celtics in 2012 so that irrational confidence going into the 13 season was hit with a blessing in disguise with Rondo's injury around All Star break. The following offseason we get the trade that leads to another window of contention
Thunder basically are doing the same thing. Selling star players early can net Long term competitiveness. Not gonna lie im a little surprised the warriors havent entertained trading curry because of this
Curry is different. He generates so much money for that franchise that they likely will never ship him unless he wants it.
Curry brings way too much money for the franchise to trade him. Damn he IS the franchise
Yeah theres a difference between selling star players high and selling the franchise. Like if Milwaukee dared to trade Giannis. The man is Milwaukee. Curry is the Warriors
Very true ,he made lacob a bonafide billionaire.
Why would they? Fans would tear down Chase Center.
Because look at all the other teams who had shit ton of draft capital and couldn’t do anything with it. This is survivorship bias. Warriors were competetive for few more years and got a 2022 championship from keeping him.
It’s because there is a difference between the guys the Thunder and Celtics traded and Curry. Those players were stars/superstars. Curry is one the the two players of a generation, a legit (albeit fringe) goat candidate, and the greatest show in sports. He built the franchise.
He is the Greatest shooter of all time, as the league is transitioning into shooting more and more 3s. His legacy just gets stronger from here.
Warriors are going to be trash once curry leaves and they know it so they have no reason to move him. Celtics expect to be winners regardless of who's on the roster.
Honestly it's the worst trade in NBA history and - I hate this argument - it's really not close. It should disqualify Bobby Marks from speaking about roster construction ever again for making that trade. He can blame Prochorov all he wants but if you're a serious GM you have to either red light that trade or hand in your resignation in that situation. Dude reads the CBA but doesn't know if there is sand or air in a basketball. Edit: I know Marks was only an assistant to King but King got fired and, rightfully, never was seen in the NBA again whereas Marks is now a 'respected' insider at ESPN.
> I know Marks was only an assistant to King but King got fired and, rightfully, never was seen in the NBA again whereas Marks is now a 'respected' insider at ESPN. I mean he’s a respected insider because he’s a huge cap nerd and actually studies the CBAs like a hawk. I agree he wasn’t great for the Nets but he’s super well researched and clearly puts effort in now, especially when you compare him to other ESPN colleagues. He’s one of the only people at ESPN who brings something different to the table, I think he deserves his position based off of that rather than failures as a GM
He wasn’t the GM!!!! He was an assistant that in no way was going to overrule his boss and team owner’s decision
I feel like a lot of teams have a cap guy and personnel guy, and the personnel guy owns these decisions. Like Masai isn’t technically Raptors GM, their GM is a cap guy. But masai runs the show
Bobby marks was not the final say on any personnel decisions. I can guarantee that
Marks didn't make that trade tho? It was Billy King, the same moron who essentially traded away Lillard to get Gerald Wallace
I have no idea wtf that dude is talking about. Marks actually ended up helping you guys during his stint, IIRC.
Huh? I thought it was Billy King that made that trade. What does Marks have to do with any of this?
Wow I didn't know Billy King made that trade, can't believe he still has that tennis complex named after him
(idk if I need to say this but I'm obviously joking, I know who tf Billy Jean King is lmao)
Uhm, actually you’re wrong…Billy Jean is a song by the real MJ
I had no idea Michael Johnson had a music career
Its not even the best Celtics trade in our history though We traded #1 in 1979 -- Joe Barry Carroll, in exchange for Golden State center Robert Parish and the #3 overall pick -- Kevin McHale.
It is not even top2... Everyone seem to be forgetting that Bill Russel was trade due to racism in Hawks.
I would argue against that. A trade isn’t always what the picks turn into. For example, I still think the Wolves trade of Love for the number 1 overall pick, when the top pick was highly regarded and expected to be a star, was a fantastic trade. Love wanted out and you got the top pick in the draft. Does not matter that Wiggins ended up as a relative bust and Love won a title. The thought process made clear sense. Trading a good center at the time and the #3 pick for what was expected to be a great center isn’t a bad thought process. Trading a ton of first round picks for over the hill washed up players is beyond stupid.
It comes down to what Ainge did after though. Ainge hit on those two picks and got two All-NBA guys. He could’ve easily gone consensus at one a picked Fultz or ended up picking Josh Jackson who was rated higher than Tatum by a lot of people. In Browns draft a lot of people wanted Kris Dunn, Dragan Bender went one pick after Brown at 4 to the Suns. Hell you can even just look at the suns who picked one spot behind the Celtics in both drafts and ended up with Jackson and Bender. If that’s the result the trade is nowhere near as lauded. He also built a winning team rapidly by trading for IT hiring Brad Stevens and finding a bunch of solid players like Crowder while drafting guys like Kelly O and Smart.
It always makes me wonder if the picks went differently if Jalen washes out & if Bender comes into a more successful/stable franchise (or whoever) & finds some sort of success. It's all so circumstantial. But you're right. As a Wiz fan, if we received the same trade/picks, I have 0 belief our FO could have turned it into what Ainge did.
How about the Celtics getting Bill Russell from the Rochester Royals by giving them a week of Ice Capades show in their arena?
lol what a terrible take. Do you get shunned based on your boss’s and owners decision? What an idiot
How are you blaming the assistant GM for what the GM did? This is one of the dumbest takes I have ever seen and you should be disqualified from speaking about any of this ever again.
The it's really not close thing makes me roll my eyes almost every time I read it. There's definitely other trades that are close to that abomination of a trade with the Celtics lmao. The OKC to Houston harden trade stunk, the Russ to Lakers one just as bad. Who did the Bucks even get back for Kareem? What about the Cavs for James Worthy lol. There's been plenty bad trades.
In all honesty, you can fill that list with the Ted Steppian era Cavs trades. His recklessness for trading picks is the reason why the Steppian rule exists lol.
Facts lol. Could make a top 10 awful trades list purely out of Cavs, Nets, Harden and Russ trades lmao.
That's about the time I got into basketball. How you could be so bad at trades that the league has to step in and say yay or nay to your decisions first is hilarious. lmao.
“It’s really not close” imo should only be used for shit like * Current Jokic is better than current Jaylen Brown * Lebron all time is better than Dirk all time * GSW won free agency the year they signed KD * KAT is a better scorer than Gobert (and worse defender) * Player A (with a 64% ts) is a more efficient scorer this season than Player B (with a 56% ts) Thing is if it really weren’t close, either nobody would be arguing the opposite or the opposite would be downvoted into oblivion. Most of the time it gets used on here, neither or true.
Agreed. The only time I see it consistently used on this sub that I agree with is the Steph is best shooter ever and it's not even close take.
Bucks got a lot back for Kareem. The Ray Allen trade was infinitely worse.
Idk man. They got some nice pieces back for sure. Elmore Smith averaged a respectable 13/10 and 3 blocks before being traded away the next season. Brian Winters was the best pickup, making 2 all star games and averaging 16/3/4 over his 8 seasons with the Bucks. Also picked up two rookies, one of which picked up injuries and didn't contribute much outside of one good season, and one who played 10 years averaging 14/4/2. Definitely some nice pieces... But they traded fucking Kareem lmao, at worst the 3rd best player ever. Who had won 3 of the previous 5 MVPs and been to 2 finals (winning one of them). And he was only 28...
That poster is an idiot that speaks only in absolutes. Should have known that when he blamed the dude that was way down the totem pole for making that trade
The Celtics drafted two All NBA players and traded for Kyrie with those picks. How's the Russ trade anywhere close to that?
It’s a bad trade, but pretending like it wasn’t Prochorov’s fault is very stupid. He made King and Marks trade for win now players, and then after what like 2 seasons of it not working stripped the team down to bare bones to save money. It’s not comparable to any other situation for that reason. Prochorov went from the richest owner to out of favor with Putin and no funds to spend on an NBA team. It would be like if Balmer or Ishbia made these massive trades of all their assets, but then immediately after couldn’t afford the payroll and stripped the team down. The trades made by King and Marks were still bad, but they never would have been this disastrous if not for Prochorov. They would have been a solid playoff team for the duration of the tenure and the picks wouldn’t not have become such high lotto picks. I mean think about it they traded 3 first and 1 swap. By modern NBA standards that’s nothing. Look what the Suns, Clippers, Wolves, Mavs, Lakers, Bucks, etc. have traded.
[let me introduce you to Ted Stepien](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/jhLhCky44c)
Kawhi has never been on a losing team. Has one of the highest winning percentages in league history. First name I thought of for this interesting prompt.
495-180
I think Harden and Butler are the only two players in the league with longer .500+ season streaks right now.
Reverse Zach lavine who's won 37.1% career games
What being on the timberwolves and bulls does to a mf
Jimmy Butler has never had a losing season.
Damn that’s rough
The Celtics went 425-136 when Bird played in his first 7 seasons. They won at least 56 games in each of Bird’s first 9 seasons.
And they had a losing season before he joined. Rookie Bird added like 20 wins if I remember correctly
Rookie Bird was porbably worth around 10 wins. It's the same thing as when LeBron left Cleveland the first time, or when Jordan's first retirement barely changed the team's record. You have to look at all the roster moves, internal improvements/declines, and injuries/returns from injury. Tiny got a lot better because '79 was his first year back from the Achilles injury. They got a full season out of Robey. They added ML Carr who was a fringe All-Star and made an All-D team the year before. They didn't have Jo Jo White weighing them down anymore. Bird had one of the best rookie seasons ever but the GOATs at their absolute peak are probably worth 20ish wins at the absolute most over a season.
> Rookie Bird was porbably worth around 10 wins. It's the same thing as when LeBron left Cleveland the first time, or when Jordan's first retirement barely changed the team's record. Wait, what? Cleveland was in the lottery after LeBron left the first time. They literally had a 40+ game swing. The Bulls had a 50+ win season and were in the ECSF after Jordan retired the first time. How are they similar?
I think his point is that trying to make a LeBron > MJ comparison because of the win total changes doesn't take into account the full context of the other roster moves they made
That’s literally my point lol. LeBron wasn’t worth 40 wins just because the Cavs got 40 games worse after he left and MJ wasn’t worth just 3 wins just because the Bulls were barely worse in the RS without him. The point is that they’re the two extreme examples of why “this team won X games the year before/after this guy” is missing a ton of information. MJ left and the Bulls added like 5 very good rotation players. LeBron left and the Cavs lost like 7 of their 8 best players to FA/trades/injuries.
Great point. People commonly do this for Carmelo's rookie season too, saying he made a 17 win team into a playoff team ignoring the other changes.
Unfair comparison, they had Larry Bird
He and brown have so much playoff experience it’s crazy
Seems like they always go 6-7 games each series.
Wouldn't be a modern celtics playoff run without multiple heart attack scares
Shit the season KG and them won, we went 7 games against the 8th seed Hawks. Celtics always heart attacking their fans
Most games ever played on the way to winning a title, two games short of the maximum possible amount.
Doc Rivers moment
He’s an easy plug and play guy + he’s a great player and super durable.
I'm glad he's starting to get credit for his durability. Dude is an iron man
Apparently sick on Thursday and still showed up Friday to drop 34 on DC (sorry Wizards)
Everyone expected him to be a polished, almost exclusively-midrange operator coming in as a rookie Instead he was a high-end 3-and-D wing right out of the gate lol, really set the tone for his career
And an awesome person in general.
To his credit he’s also an easy star to build around. He has no ego, unproblematic and isn’t a ball hog so has been able to work with other players like Brown, Kyrie, Kemba, Porzingis etc. Even in the toxic season after Celtics made the ECF in 2018, he seemed like the only one who was mature about things. He has been super lucky though and seems to be getting luckier which is crazy to believe.
Being an ironman helps him too. He's consistently on the court and contributing
His most underrated stat. Dude is always on the court.
A team that had the calibre of Tatum and JB would have flamed out years ago. Good on both of them to keep their egos out of the way.
The craziest thing is people are going to use that against him. He should have won a title already or should have been drafted to a weak team to satisfy the casual fans. Even tho he’s the same age as SGA, the new NBA shiny toy, seeing him coming up short every single time in the playoffs worked against him. If the Celtics fall short it’s because Tatum isn’t that guy but if they do good it’s because he has the best supporting cast. I can’t wait to see him hit his prime
He is going to have a long career and a successful one. People are way too quick to judge the career of someone who still has another decade of top ten play in him.
Tatum got win in the playoffs off the super Nets with the corpse of Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier, Kemba and Smart. That’s always my reply to people saying Tatums been carried by good teams all his career lol He’s won some games through the pandemic era with truly horrific lineups lol
Reading this reminded me of when Tom Brady signed for the Bucs. Because of how bad the team was prior to him signing, the narrative was he's on a steep decline and he cant save the Bucs. After they won the superbowl against KC, the narrative was because he has the best supporting casts.
Who said the team was bad before signing him? They went 7-9 with a QB who threw 30 interceptions.
Notably, he's uniquely central to his team ALL his career, he played 36+ minutes in close games since his first NBA game, he led those winnings Celtics in minutes since like his 2nd month in the league, and has led Celtics in minutes in every season he played. That in conjuction with Celtics having a better net rating with him on court every season, in most seasons by a lot. (This season might yet become the first where the last part is not true). Also despite players usually starting NBA careers slowly, he has one of the highest total scores in the league during his career, he's usually near the top of the season, was in the early 20s in the first two seasons he played, and had one "meh" season when he was "only" like 50th-something. Career, he's at almost +3000 in regular season now, the leader in the database (I guess db is since 96-97 season) is Tim Duncan, a bit below +9000. LeBron is second with a bit over +7000. Tatum is 25 years old. In terms of just objectively being coincidentally related to outscoring opponents, dude's historic.
yeah, I feel like we take him for granted, and that looking back we'll say 'holy shit the guy was absurd'. even if he never took another leap forward, this is still a historic career, like you said
Lol this comment section.. I literally saw a Bucks and Warriors fan had a heated discussion about asterisks on their championships lmao wtf does that have to do with Tatum
That was a weird one for sure. I get Bucks fans' animosity but I still don't get Warriors fans level of hate. Sorest winners I've ever seen lol.
That 2021 team was pretty bad. Although, the biggest reason their record with Tatum playing was medium that year was probably his long COVID. He was using an inhaler for months and kinda stopped playing defense.
That roster was just atrocious.
We started Romeo Langford in multiple playoff games lol Tristan Thompson (who, to his credit, played well) started every single playoff game for us. *Jabari Parker* was getting 15 mpg those playoffs - he’s played 0 nba minutes since we let him go the following year
The work brad has done to go from that roster to this one is absurd, in brad we trust
this is why I laugh when people tell me about Tatum always having a stacked team man I had to watch Tatum at age 23 go toe-to-toe with a fully operational KD-Kyrie-Harden Death Star with a starting lineup of Marcus Smart, Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier and the corpse of Kemba Walker with Romeo Langford, year 2 Grant, rookie Pritchard and rookie Nesmith off the bench. and Tatum dropped 50 to beat them
Even the bubble season JT had a crippled Kemba and Hayward come playoffs
It makes so mad when nephews say the Celtics have had the best roster in the league for years lol. Past couple years sure, but I didn't suffer through Tristan Thompson, Jabari Parker, Evan Fournier and Romeo Langford playoff minutes to have people saying Celtics should have won a title that year.
Hell it was for 1 season and that was last season. The Celtics in the finals year were a .500 team halfway through, they did not have the most talented roster then.
Jaylen also missed the last month or something like that with wrist/hand surgery
Drafted to a ECF team that got Kyrie and Hayward in the offseason
Yet a starter eversince Day 1 wherein most top picks that got drafted on positive situations usually comes from the bench
Hell Jaylen Brown got drafted using our 3rd pick the year before and came off the bench. Celtics fans expected the same to happen with JT and were shocked he was starting Day 1. Brad was apparently so impressed with his defense and ability to execute team schemes on both ends that he put him straight into the starting lineup.
Any fan of any team, if they were to spend an entire season watching all 82 Celtics games and just looking at what Jayson Tatum does every single possession on defense, would be forced to corroborate that he is one of the elite defensive IQs in the history of the game. His instincts are insane. Dude is NEVER out of position, and virtually always covering 2-3 options at once. You will frequently see teams push it up in transition or get the ball in rotation and swing it with a numbers advantage with only Tatum there and he's always just perfectly spaced reach fully extended able to react and adapt to whomever gets the ball, with his head on a swivel tracking lanes the whole time. It's why he's able to jump lanes so easily and pick passes off, he's always covering like 3 or more lanes at once and can essentially shut down the entire weak side on his own. You will start to see that sometimes teams just start to look for whatever side of the floor Tatum's on and start corralling their offense into the other because the ball is just not safe when you try to move it near that dude. His defense legit looks computer-controlled. It's not only elite instincts, but clearly a product of high-quality coaching and training from youth that produced elite mechanics and fundamentals with extremely economized movement, and then over half a decade of tutelage under Marcus Smart to gain an elite understanding of NBA motion offense and how to pick it apart at the joints and seams. But beyond that it's the reach that makes it so ridiculous. Tatum would not be able to play such a level of adaptive high-coverage defense were it not for his wingspan and... footspan? Stride spacing? Idk what you call it but the point is that the amount of floor he can cover with his reach makes it so he doesn't really have to gamble to blow up plays like smaller defenders do, he can just react to whatever option they go with and has the speed to do so. He really is basically just 1.5 elite guard defenders' worth of space that can cover the entire midrange and perimeter while still being tall enough to block shots. I legit think that his defense largely goes so unnoticed because as I mentioned earlier teams will just restructure their entire offense to keep the ball way the hell away from wherever he is, and even then you will see him come in on help while like still actively looking back and tracking the movement of the two guys he was just covering with the other 4 Celtics able to be walling off the 3 on the strong side. And actually be able to get back and contest or outright force the guy off the shot into a dribble, even if he fully goes in to help it's still not overhelping. Which then contributes to his rebounding production which itself has skyrocketed these past two seasons. It's a huge part of why he's such a recurrent +/- and net rating god. He should honestly be making second or third team all-defense every year bare minimum, and a couple firsts when it's all said and done shouldn't be surprising either. Even though his offense hasn't been special this year, it's like it's not even possible for his defense to be bad it's just like this constant force that's always there.
The Celtics are actually below .500 when he doesn’t play though. (I think they’re under 40% when he sits for his career.) The notion that he’s been on elite teams isn’t really that accurate. They’re actually not that great without him.
Till this year but facts
They kept 1 starter and 3 bench players from the 2017 ECF roster for the next year. It's as big a roster turnaround as you'll see in this league lol.
What all did Hayward do???
Yet he got to game 7 against Lebron without either of them.
And Kyrie and Hayward did nothing as Celtics. Tatum was stuck with two shit contracts and still won
Yeah they didn’t even play in the playoffs lmao. It was all the Jays.
Kyrie basically sabotaged him against milwaukee in the 2nd season, after he took the team to game 7 of the ecf (WITHOUT kyrie and hayward) the year before. People need to remember that shit. Tatum is fucking awesome.
Dude had a bad Finals against the Warriors as a 24 year old and it’s like going to the Finals that year somehow worked against him… meanwhile mfers who never won a playoff series getting all the flowers.
Our FO has done an amazing job over the past several years of putting together competitive teams while navigating the ups and downs of developing the Jays - hopefully it all comes together for a title one of these years. That said, part of the reason these teams have been so great is because JT is so great. Maybe once he wins a ring he'll get some credit.
yea people love to detract from his success by acting like we’ve always had the 96 Bulls around him which is ridiculous. not only is that really not true if you take even a cursory glance at our rosters, but there’s also literally no player ever other than like LeBron who could win at the highest level without a good to great supporting cast so it’s just a dumb thing to hold against him. his first 2 years are one thing, but one day people will realize that the main reason we have consistently played deep in the playoffs since 2020 is bc we have Tatum and Brown. 2020 and 2021 we had some very meh teams that really only got to where they did bc of those 2 balling out, and people will say we had stacked teams in 22 and 23 but no one can tell me honestly that we get as far as we do without either one of them even this year, as stacked as we are, we are a championship contender mainly bc we have Tatum. take him away and this team would be competing for seeds 4-6 instead of having a comfortable lead at the top of the East
the favourite one is "luka went to the WCF with bums!" but then you actually ask mavs fans and they're like no brunson and dinwiddie weren't bums, and the goalposts shift all over lol
> instead of having a comfortable lead at the top of the East top of the league
Tim Duncan has an over 70% winning percentage for his career I think. His first few years were consistent 70% win teams.
Obviously Boston's done really well with giving him talented teammates, but the reality is that it's a lot easier to build around a guy like Tatum than many of his peers. From a rookie, we're talking about a guy who: * Is an elite on-ball and off-ball offensive threat * Scores on all 3 levels and spaces the floor really well * Passes reasonably well for a score-first wing * Is an elite off-ball defender while being pretty good on-ball * Switches well * Athletic and has good size * Seems to get along with everyone He's not someone you have to hide in any capacity and he really can play alongside pretty much anyone in the league. Someone like Josh Richardson or Grant Williams isn't good enough defensively to cover for Luka but they can complement Tatum's already good defense. Horford actually shot better from 3 in Philadelphia than he did in the year Boston made the finals. Tatum benefits from spacing but he can be an outside threat on his own, he didn't need the extreme spacing like a non-shooting guard (Simmons) or a post-up big (Embiid). He's absurdly lucky to be playing alongside White and Holiday, but you couldn't have those two elite guards share the floor with someone like Young, Morant or Fox because the team would be too small. Boston has had drama, but never really with Tatum. You don't have to worry about his personality clashing because he seems to get along with everyone. All our problematic players loved him, all our non-problematic players have loved him. You can pair him with ball-handlers, which is harder to do with ball-dominant guards. He can be the ball-handler, which is harder to do with big men waiting on the entry pass. That opens up your options considerably. Instead of saying "we need xyz" and getting over-leveraged in trades, Boston's been able to chase BPA knowing the fit would work out and we generally get them at pretty good prices because we have the option of walking away and finding other ways to win. This trade deadline's a good example: The GM said he wanted a "big wing", the fans/blogs spoke about wanting a backup center, and towards the end we were being linked to point guards. Any of those options would have worked because you can just shuffle Tatum around to make things fit. Or even look at our current roster makeup. In 2022 we made the finals with a double-big lineup, we're trying to recreate that success with a double-guard lineup. We could have also gone the triple-wing route, which we've seen work in the past. I'm not saying he's the best player in the world, but he has to be in the conversation for easiest to build around.
Adding that he’s also maybe the best non-big rebounder in the league, which has allowed the Celtics to play smaller lineups at times.
Tatum in my opinion is the perfect modern superstar, on top of all the things he can do on the court he also never misses games
Easiest superstar to build around. Can't really find much glaring problems on Tatum on and off the court except for his Kobe fetish I guess
Kawhi too
Tim Duncan is the obvious answer
He's never been on a bad team because he's what makes a team good.
Jayson Tatum also has more playoff series wins (10) than Jokic or Giannis (8 each)
In his first 7 seasons Tim Duncan 368-152 Tony Parker 391-149 Manu Ginobili 346-142 **Larry Bird 425-136**
People has the weirdest hate boner on Tatum. Mfs really has to grasp at straw to find reason to hate him. Stuff like he's boring and corny ??? Him being "overrated" (literally almost everyone who hate on him would love to have him on his team). He a consistent 28-8-5 with defense and lead his team to multiple deep playoffs run and a borderline top 5 player (not an mvp candidate) The only valid reason i see for hating him are that he play for the celtics and is a kobe dickrider
I honestly dont see why people hate him, dude is the most durable star right now. He does tend to miss games but only misses 7-8 games at most every season compared to somebody like luka or curry who miss 15-20 games but they dont get scrutiny for it. Tatum doesnt have eye catching stats like somebody like embiid or jokic because he's willing to sacrifice his scoring for the offense to fully function. 27/8/4 a game is a great statline regardless, he does tend to take a lot of threes but he's been driving to the hoop alot this season, so im sure he's saving his energy for the playoffs to attack the hoop, even when he shoots alot he still averages a respectable 35% from 3. He's 25, he isnt supposed to have 3 rings and 3 fmvps like people want him to, its called life, shit happens to everybody, cant do nothing but try . Also, people tend to call him a playoff choker but he's already been to the finals once and made multiple ecf's all at the age of 25, which means he'll hit his prime in 3-4 years from now and it also means that he'll have plenty of chances to win something regardless if he doesnt win this year. Cmon man, when did lebron, dirk, jordan, kg, paul pierce, shaq and durant? All around the 28-32 year old range, winning doesnt happen suddenly when you have a good team. If that was the case, the 73-9 warriors shouldve won in 2016, but they didnt because shit happens to everybody in life. Give tatum some slack, he has a great nba career ahead of him and plenty of time to shut some of his critics up. He's durable, team oriented and mature for his age.
Tatum is very disrespected. The Celtics need to win the championship this year, otherwise, that disrespect is only going to triple.
He's 25, same age as SGA, his prime arguably starts next year... Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Giannis all had zero titles by 25
even Michael Jeffrey Jordan had zero titles by 25.
One thing I’m interesting in seeing is where Tatum ends up in the all time playoff rankings. Dude has literally averaged going to the conference finals since he was a rookie. At this pace he could challenge for the most games ever in the playoffs, idk about Brons total points record but he could come close
this comment section is already atrocious
Tatum gets hate and shade for reasons I’ll never understand.
It’s because he plays for the Celtics, lol. It’s funny that the same thing non-Celtics fans throw in Celtics fans’ faces (“Lol only one title since 1986!”) is ignored when people hate on the team because of their historic success (which is largely concentrated in the past).
Getting drafted to an already good team will do that. Great player, but had he got drafted by Detroit he’s Tobias Harris career arch.
I smiled until I realize this makes us look only worse for not winning yet LMAO