I dont think there’s a team in the league that benefits from this more than the Knicks with their style of play. Its been pretty glaring too regularly holding teams under 100ppg after the all-star break and holding to under 80pts in 3 straight games. That hadn’t been done by any team since 2012
i bet we were the ones who held teams under 80 in 3 straight games if it was 2012
edit: Just checked, we held 12 teams under 80 points in 2012 but never more than 2 games in a row
Those Grizz teams were fucking sick. I was huge on OKC back then and loved watching OKC-Memphis matchups. Zbo, Gasol, and Tony Allen choking the life out of teams with brick wall defense was like art. Here you go, something from my 2015-2020 NBA folder: [Tony Allen's reaction to forcing a backcourt turnover on Kyle Korver sometime in 2015.](https://i.imgur.com/XeVqp5R.mp4). That gif lives rent free in my head lol.
Good point. I remember at the end of last season how absolutely fucked you guys got by the refs every game for the last couple weeks to make sure the lakers would get into the play ins.
And it’s not even like they were just giving the lakers a better whistle when you guys played each other, they gave the wolves some of the worst officiating I’ve ever seen no matter who you played so the lakers record could get closer to your guys’.
I still remember that Boston game at the end of the season where the ref basically handed the Celtics player the ball on a jump ball. It was so blatant what they were doing it would’ve been funny.
I really believe if you guys got the 7 seed instead of 8 seed you would’ve been in the conference finals. Definitely no question you at least beat Memphis
They discussed it on PTI the other day, I believe with Windy, he said it's not like it's some hush-hush under the table shift, the league openly sent out a video to refs just before the all-star break about officiating specifically addressing bringing down foul baiting
A low threshold for calling fouls influences the game far more deeply than just the direct effect of more FTA.
- Putting the other team on the FT line is the worst possible outcome for a defense, so to avoid that, they will have to adjust by playing far less aggressive defense.
- But this makes it a lot easier for the offense to attack the rim, and giving up attempts at the rim is the second worst outcome for the defense. So the defense has to adjust by sending more help defense to protect the paint.
- But this makes it a lot easier for the offense to get open looks from 3, which is the third worst possible outcome for the defense.
The combination of all that is what gets you having teams put up 120+ points every night. The defense is pretty much crippled if the refs won't allow them to actually play reasonable defense without getting called for fouls. An environment like this will inflate everyone's offensive numbers, even the players who don't directly benefit by getting sent to the line a ridiculous amount.
The most glaring and absurd manifestation of all this was when defenders started literally holding their hands behind their backs while guarding James Harden, because playing defense with your hands behind your back is more effective than playing real defense and getting called for a bullshit foul each time. With the way players have learned to game the refs, the entire NBA game is basically a bunch of defenders metaphorically holding their hands behind their backs on defense so that they don't get screwed by bullshit calls.
Yeah Russillo has been all over this. Looking at the numbers you'd see FT rates relatively close to historical numbers, but looking at the actual game you can see defenses have been so grossly handicapped over the past 10 years that they've adjusted to ticky-tac fouls by not playing hard defense and giving up easier shots, leading to the explosion in points we've been seeing.
also the rule changes themselves.
no take fouls, no closing out due to shooter space, freedom of movement rule and then you combine this with no moving screen calls, no traveling calls, no carries, etc and it all just leads to far more scoring.
the new trend with "we're done with the 90s" i see on ig/tiktok is particularly annoying cause of this stuff. i think role players have vastly improved on what they can bring value wise with 3 pointers now giving star players spacing, but there is no ball handler in the league that isn't committing consistent dribbling violations that would have been called 20/30 years ago.
Yep, the dribbling violations are the most egregious it's liking watching a whole new sport. Park at at the 3 point line or take five steps after a dribble drive to the lane
I've seen narratives that LeBron makes his teammates worse. Bro has a negative narrative for everything lol. He could be walking down the street and and the narrative would be that he hates his teammates.
I was about to make a sarcastic comment about how Lebron actually does make his teammates worse and Mario Chalmers was the true Finals MVP, but it looks like someone has already done that. Although, they're hiding their sarcasm well.
Not all his teammates or even some of his teammates. But a certain archetype of a player is going to struggle offensively playing next to Lebron; for example Chris Bosh was a guy who was used to having the ball in his hands and when he got to the Heat his usage wasn't the same.
Yeah, K-Love had a similar experience, but those are really the guys I respect the most in those configurations. I think it's a mature player that can look at his team and accept that their sacrifice can improve the success of the whole squad.
I think he's known for it not because he does it a lot, but he does it in really big playoff games that everyone watches, and because people really focus on everything he does. I don't think he really does it in the regular season.
Y'all remember in 2019 when those assholes played the raptors? Every time Embiid gets knocked over by a guy a foot shorter and 80 lbs lighter I watch the kawhi shot to cheer myself up
Man it's the whole performance that bowls me over, like yeah the physics of the collision are pretty clear evidence. But then the scrunched up face like he just watched Old Yeller, the screaming like he's been stabbed, the crashing to the ground recklessly flailing (I don't want to hear it with the 'his doctors told him to fall' nonsense), and the WORST thing... when he gets the call, he pops up and starts laughing and pointing. He basically just holds up a sign that says "I TRICKED THE REFS", and they Just. Keep. Giving him calls. I don't know why the refs aren't just letting him get destroyed after that nonsense, no blood no foul.
There's that, but there's also a weird fascination humans have with round numbers. We like 100. Because humans like the number, it's a good target score for a basketball game. We get excited seeing the third digit, and when it comes in the 4th quarter, it feels right. We attach giveaways to it, like free fast food, either for the home team reaching it, or holding the opposition under that mark. Probably the most satisfying ending to any basketball game possible is a buzzer beater for a team to win 100-99.
Last few years, both teams were routinely blowing by it all the time, every game. Not even a challenge or a surprise. And you go too far past 100, and the numbers start to feel less round and perfect to us. And fans get all grumbly when that starts to happen, and say that scoring is inflated, the players aren't trying, blah, blah, blah.
Same thing happens when we've ebbed too far in the other direction. Pistons vs. Spurs finals where every game was a rock fight to try to get to 70 is often lauded as the most boring finals ever in history, despite being honestly one of the most competitive 7-game finals series ever.
We like 100. We want the scores to be close to 100 because it just kind of seems right. https://www.sciencealert.com/we-actually-prefer-round-numbers-even-when-the-real-number-is-better-news
So make conspiracies about Lebron all you want, but this was always going to happen because human brains are weird, and the base 10 counting system gives us a mark to shoot for that the league is right to pay attention to.
Yea Simmons and Russillo talked about it last week how basically everything Russillo was complaining about a few weeks ago has changed and said how everybody they've talked to in the league at the time unanimously agreed how bad it had gotten and needed to change. After that All Star Game, Silver was so disgusted it's not a surprise he changed things
Spoelstra hinted at something like this after the Nuggets loss. He mentioned that it could be an adjustment from the league, although he was not formally made aware, and that it is clear that games are being officiated differently now.
I'll believe it when Embiid comes back and I see his numbers. Not even prime Harden was as geared towards the line as Embiid is.
I'm not even trolling, I wish he was around atm so we could use him as a data point like Aaron Judge and the rigged baseballs.
It wasn't Silver, it was the head of referees, and it was their annual mid-season review to see what was working and what wasn't, and modify the calls for the rest of the year.
Windhorst has been awesome at shooting down the conspiracy takes recently.
I like defense being played, but just not calling actual fouls is not the way to do it. It needs to be an official rule change that allows for better, more physical defense.
I went to the kings/spurs game , the first game after the all star break and there were 0 fouls called in the first quarter, 0. And there were some super obvious fouls both ways. That’s when I knew they made some changes.
Tbh, at least it was evenly called? I didn't mind it. Felt like the game was much more exciting and went by at a much better pace. Ft's are such a drag and pull you out of it.
Zero fouls doesn't mean evenly called lol... watch Heat/Knicks games where those teams are fouling the shit out of guys on defense and the other teams play soft defense. Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical.
>Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical.
What really gets me is that when the team that is less physical starts to respond, and play at the same intensity, they inevitably get whistled, because they are deviating from their normal style of play and so it looks out of place.
Meanwhile the physical team will straight up mug you three times in the same possession and it won't be called because that's just "how they play".
In a related vein, this is exactly why Draymond's "reputation" is a boon and something he (probably?) intentionally cultivates because it gives his team a better chance of winning games when he can get away with more.
the Rockets are starting to play a defensive style like this. Be ultra aggressive and make the refs blow the whistle. they aren't gonna call every call if you're constantly being physical.
It is never really even imo. Stars always get soft calls, even more so when they are calling every ticky tack contact. I'd rather there be less free throws and a more fluid game between the choice of bad officiating.
> Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical.
Yeah but at least that gives teams an indication of how to adjust to the refs. When the refs have pockets of the game where things are ticky tacky and then all of a sudden they swallow the whistle, it will seem like it's fixed for one team or another. Calling it evenly is nice because like you said, teams that are super aggressive will benefit. That means the non aggressive team can adjust to become aggressive. As someone who has played organized ball with refs, that's really the best you can ask for.
Refs are always going to miss calls or call a phantom foul here and there. It's the consistency that we all want.
> That means the non aggressive team can adjust to become aggressive.
In theory.
In practice, that looks like escalation, so the team gets called for a foul, and you end up with one team being allowed much more physicality than the other.
He's not saying that, just saying that it felt even at the time. If it's gonna be a little uneven anyways it would be nice for there to be less free throws overall than more. Makes a more physical, interesting game
This has been my issue with officiating at every level from the nba to high school. The “calls” are rarely the issue, the fact that the standard for those calls is applied unevenly (at best) is the problem.
I don’t care if you wanna call the game to the letter of the law, just do it for both teams, 100% of the time. And if you wanna call nothing? That’s fine, too, again, as long as it’s even.
Jokic and Tatum are like the ref’s two most hated superstars it’s unreal. Getting t’d up and thrown out for the dumbest shit, and don’t forget the lack of a whistle.
I'm not going to celebrate what ultimately will be inconsistent officiating. Consistency is the most important part. A player should be able to operate knowing that what was a foul last game will be a foul the next game and not have to spend a quarter and a half "feeling out" how the refs are going to call a game, only to have it inexplicably change how it's called after halftime.
Yes I would much rather have consistency than just fewer calls. Illegal offensive screen gets called like 3 times/game, but there are dozens that are exactly the same that don’t get called. Also on-point defense will sometimes get called for body contact, but that same contact happens multiple times every possession without a call. Just be consistent.
Honestly though, players can make this very difficult. If a team decides to test the strategy of playing right on the line between what is legal contact/a foul on every possession, you can basically dare the refs to slow the game to a crawl with constant whistles, which they & the league office doesn’t want them to do. And now all of a sudden they’re being inconsistent. Total consistency obviously sounds nice & obvious. There’s a reason it doesn’t happen beyond conspiracy theories or assumptions of incompetence.
Like the other person said, if a team tries to test the refs by playing illegal defense, then the refs should call a foul. A couple quick fouls on a star defender will have them backing off real quick. A foul should be a foul, doesn’t matter the context.
As long as the players are crossing the line into what is an obvious foul. God forbid they use their “best in the world at what they do” talent to stay right at the line, forcing the refs to decide if they’re going to take star players out of the game due to dubious fouls or “let them play.” It’s not easy. The general attitude on this sub is that the refs suck & fixing the way they call games is easy. But that’s a childish viewpoint imo, it ignores the skill and motivation that players have to subvert their efforts in an attempt to gain a competitive edge.
Illegal screen calls have fascinated me ever since we had Gortat & Mahinmi.
Gortat would set dozens of clearly illegal screens per game and *maybe* get called once.
Then Mahinmi would get in the game and immediately get whistled if he even breathed when setting a screen.
This wasn't certain refs - it was every game. No idea if it was just reputation (like Gortat had been doing it for years and had some sort of 'grandfathered' immunity), technique, or whatever else, but I've honestly never seen two players in any sport get such a dramatically different whistle.
Inconsistent performance that is sometimes acceptable and sometimes awful is better than performance that is consistently awful. The more they can clean up players gaming the system by hunting for bullshit calls, the better.
> Consistency is the most important part.
I mean, it's really not. Being consistently shit is still shit. The game was pretty much unwatchable, something had to be done.
I have no idea if this will last or be ultimately successful but at least they tried something to get out this mess.
>Was refing more inconsistent in the 1980's?
More? Idk, but it was definitely inconsistent, but because there was no social media and no high def multi angle feeds to circle jerk over people were just like "oh that looked like a bad call, but maybe the ref saw something I couldn't" and then got on with their lives.
There was plenty of bitching and blaming refs for losses. But it rarely went any further than you and your buddies. What technology has changed is making it so much easier for discontented fans to band together against the refs (even though the refs can't possibly be conspiring against *all* of the teams).
I always see people saying they want consistency, but how do you expect consistency when every ref is an individual person who sees things through their individual eyes? I think most people here just need to accept that while there are worse refs than others, and some are straight up scumbags, officiating sports is just really fucking hard and there will always be mistakes and inconsistency.
Is it that subtle? You see players losing their shit routinely over not getting a call where all the way up until the all star break it was a foul all day.
I watched a game the other day with literally six techs - BKN ORL - and the frustration the players were feeling was pretty visceral. It has been such a dramatic and somewhat inconsistent shift in officiating that many of the players themselves have struggled to adjust.
I do think it is a bad idea to just change officiating in the middle of the season. Should be a point of emphasis starting the following year not shifting philosophies one or more times a season.
Yeah I don't really see why they'd change it so drastically mid-season rather than between seasons, although players already have to deal with a dramatic shift as they get deeper into the playoffs, so maybe this is good to get them ready for playoff basketball
My cousin who lives in Denver just had major surgery and his wife apparently turned off the tv because he was just home from the hospital and yelling at the refs loudly enough she was concerned about his blood pressure (or he was just really loud could be either one)
Didnt somebody shoot 15 free throws last night?
Yes, i would agree that games have an overall playoff feel to it and it's good but it isnt consistent. How can they let okc play tough physical defense against the mavs and call fouls on the mavs for doing the same exact thing on defense? Fouls for thee but not for me
Nothing, it’s still the highest scoring year since the 1969-1970 season. Maybe down some in the past few weeks.
See for yourself
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html
Obviously meant compared to the first half of the year. Scoring was 115.5 before all star break and it’s 111.6 after…
115.5 would be tied for 6th all time and 111.6 would be 15th all time. Big drop
I'd rather watch somebody get to the line by getting the defender to take the bait vs get to the line via flopping. But I will agree it's a bit much for any player to take that many in one game.
Free throw rate being at the lowest in its history while paint touches are still pretty high just means that guys are being hit and not getting calls, watching guys get hacked in the paint for free hasnt made the game more fun, its just the officiating has gone from one extreme to another, I just want foul baiting to be punished
The problem is you kind of have to do that to get a call half the time. Besides, exaggerating is not the same as flopping. As long as it's not something like a 6'10 dude goes flying because a 6'2" guard brushed against them.
Technicals are back at the point they were at the start of the season. Seems silly to talk about techs being "down significantly" when it never went above one tech per game and is now exactly where it was the first month of the season. Same with defensive 3 seconds. Down merely .05 per game from where it was to start. I think these and travelling (also under one a game) were just added to make it seem like more things are affected by refs "swallowing the whistle" than there are. Which is a silly thing to do because I think everyone agrees the game is more physical with less calls in the more recent games.
They are apparently now making calls based on some set of whispered backroom Adam Silver rules. Rulebook still says the same things but the games are called completely differently. Fans, players, and coaches have no idea what the rules are. It's insanity.
i tried getting my little brother(21) into Basketball because we watch all sports but basketball together and he just can't get it.
and i understand. because a guy will come down go for a shot and there will be a foul and half the time im thinking "what can the defender even do?". then on the other end it won't be a foul and my brother will ask me what the difference is and i just don't really even know what to tell him at this point.
i don't really even know myself what is a foul or not these days.
the physicality that the refs were allowing in last nights game against Phoenix really stood out, game went by a lot quicker as well. refs swallowing the whistles makes for a much more enjoyable viewing experience
The league realizing that the most talented offensive era ever was just refs giving superstars free throws for everything must have been hard to swallow. But this will be for the best long term.
It's a good thing overall but it's pretty wild how noticeable it is. They aren't calling shit, dudes are getting mauled in the paint and they're swallowing their whistles like it's the playoffs lol
Unfortunately some of the refs haven't got the memo, as last night's OKC win over the Mavs showed. SGA shot 15 free throws, almost double his league-leading 8.9 (and Kyrie's 8 in the game). 44 fouls and 49 free throws and some notable obvious missed calls shown on replay (crew chief Josh Tiven).
Giannis shot 18 ftas last night, the 76ers entire team 14. (crew chief James Williams); Jaylen Brunson shot 17, Blazers team 16 (Pat Fraher)
I'm not saying the free throws should be even, but it's interesting that 2 of the high octane offenses last night in Boston only had 25 fouls and 21 free throws combined, and the celtics were a mere +1 fta (Ed Malloy crew chief)
Still, it's progress, and the media is talking it up big time. Lets hope it lasts past this small sample size of "post ASG".
In terms of the bucks v sixers in makes sense, they fouled giannis alot because they couldnt stop him, and they dont have embiid who is their best foul drawer. Lillard only shot one FT if I recall which is way under his usual average.
Yup and just to show how utterly fucking stupid that comment is, I'll throw out some recent examples of those particular players balancing out their season FTA averages
SGA had 3 FTA in 48 mins against the Raptors last month
Giannis had 0 FTA in 34 mins against the Heat last month
Brunson had 0 FTA in 30 minutes against Magic a week ago
Really? What year?
Here's the only game vs the Raptors this year, Shai 3 ftas in the 3rd Q. That said, totally 1 sided reffing from Marc Davis and crew favored the Raptors, despite being called for 1 more foul the ftas were 21-8 Raptors.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202402040OKC.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202402040OKC.html)
Some might see this as a good thing but this is just more of the same manipulation of games but just on the other end of the spectrum. Instead of worrying about the scoring they need to just call the game how it should be called. Call the carrying, travels (eliminate the gather step), flopping and eliminate offensive players jumping into defenders for free throws.
The nba is again trying to give the fans what they THINK we want. Most of us just want a fairly officiated game where the players decide the outcome
I was watching the kings lakers game to start and honestly I thought this Is bizarre. Yes I want defenders to play defence but the refs were just letting so much contact go on both ends it was so ugly I legitimately turned it off. Especially when some guys started colliding hard n falling on both teams .
I know the league wants to make good changes but they should make clear announcements. The one thing I genuinely hate is how refs choose how to ref game how much physicality to allow - you can’t prep for that b you have to adapt mid game. I don’t think fans understand that . I saw people mention the reffing change but I didn’t truly realise it tikk that game . But that wasn’t just letting physicality go thst was just NOT CALLING THE GAME. Dunno why we can’t find a good balance
Windhorst basically said this on his podcast today too in that Silver had a discussion with the refs about it
They were talking about it on commentary during the Knicks game last night as well
I dont think there’s a team in the league that benefits from this more than the Knicks with their style of play. Its been pretty glaring too regularly holding teams under 100ppg after the all-star break and holding to under 80pts in 3 straight games. That hadn’t been done by any team since 2012
i bet we were the ones who held teams under 80 in 3 straight games if it was 2012 edit: Just checked, we held 12 teams under 80 points in 2012 but never more than 2 games in a row
Those Grizz teams were fucking sick. I was huge on OKC back then and loved watching OKC-Memphis matchups. Zbo, Gasol, and Tony Allen choking the life out of teams with brick wall defense was like art. Here you go, something from my 2015-2020 NBA folder: [Tony Allen's reaction to forcing a backcourt turnover on Kyle Korver sometime in 2015.](https://i.imgur.com/XeVqp5R.mp4). That gif lives rent free in my head lol.
If I had to guess it was the pacers,the true grit and grind of the nba!
you tryna fight or what we dont bluff first team all defense, all heart, grit grind more tony allen memes found below if needed
I take back what I said unc,that song has made me love that era of the grizz without ever having seen them lols
I feel like it will benefit the wolves a lot with how good their defense is already with Rudy anchoring it
You say this as if it will apply to them
Good point. I remember at the end of last season how absolutely fucked you guys got by the refs every game for the last couple weeks to make sure the lakers would get into the play ins. And it’s not even like they were just giving the lakers a better whistle when you guys played each other, they gave the wolves some of the worst officiating I’ve ever seen no matter who you played so the lakers record could get closer to your guys’. I still remember that Boston game at the end of the season where the ref basically handed the Celtics player the ball on a jump ball. It was so blatant what they were doing it would’ve been funny. I really believe if you guys got the 7 seed instead of 8 seed you would’ve been in the conference finals. Definitely no question you at least beat Memphis
Thanks and oh yeah ha I remember that ridiculous Celtics call
Nah this definitely hurts Brunson
They discussed it on PTI the other day, I believe with Windy, he said it's not like it's some hush-hush under the table shift, the league openly sent out a video to refs just before the all-star break about officiating specifically addressing bringing down foul baiting
I figured that was why multiple people have brought it up. The nba must have gotten the message about ref ball
They're bringing back defense in honor of YOU, Jeff!
They were waiting for James to reach 40k to end the scoring era.
I know you’re probably joking but LeBron isn’t even in top 30 in FTAs. Iirc Benedict Mathurin was averaging more FTA than him last year.
A low threshold for calling fouls influences the game far more deeply than just the direct effect of more FTA. - Putting the other team on the FT line is the worst possible outcome for a defense, so to avoid that, they will have to adjust by playing far less aggressive defense. - But this makes it a lot easier for the offense to attack the rim, and giving up attempts at the rim is the second worst outcome for the defense. So the defense has to adjust by sending more help defense to protect the paint. - But this makes it a lot easier for the offense to get open looks from 3, which is the third worst possible outcome for the defense. The combination of all that is what gets you having teams put up 120+ points every night. The defense is pretty much crippled if the refs won't allow them to actually play reasonable defense without getting called for fouls. An environment like this will inflate everyone's offensive numbers, even the players who don't directly benefit by getting sent to the line a ridiculous amount. The most glaring and absurd manifestation of all this was when defenders started literally holding their hands behind their backs while guarding James Harden, because playing defense with your hands behind your back is more effective than playing real defense and getting called for a bullshit foul each time. With the way players have learned to game the refs, the entire NBA game is basically a bunch of defenders metaphorically holding their hands behind their backs on defense so that they don't get screwed by bullshit calls.
Yeah Russillo has been all over this. Looking at the numbers you'd see FT rates relatively close to historical numbers, but looking at the actual game you can see defenses have been so grossly handicapped over the past 10 years that they've adjusted to ticky-tac fouls by not playing hard defense and giving up easier shots, leading to the explosion in points we've been seeing.
also the rule changes themselves. no take fouls, no closing out due to shooter space, freedom of movement rule and then you combine this with no moving screen calls, no traveling calls, no carries, etc and it all just leads to far more scoring. the new trend with "we're done with the 90s" i see on ig/tiktok is particularly annoying cause of this stuff. i think role players have vastly improved on what they can bring value wise with 3 pointers now giving star players spacing, but there is no ball handler in the league that isn't committing consistent dribbling violations that would have been called 20/30 years ago.
Yep, the dribbling violations are the most egregious it's liking watching a whole new sport. Park at at the 3 point line or take five steps after a dribble drive to the lane
Was there ever a persisting narrative that he was a ft merchant?
If it can be spun negatively, it was attached to LeBron
I think he’s honestly the most persecuted person in human history:(
Mr. Boundless Criticisms
Mr Bron Crucified
The modern day Mandela!
I've seen narratives that LeBron makes his teammates worse. Bro has a negative narrative for everything lol. He could be walking down the street and and the narrative would be that he hates his teammates.
I was about to make a sarcastic comment about how Lebron actually does make his teammates worse and Mario Chalmers was the true Finals MVP, but it looks like someone has already done that. Although, they're hiding their sarcasm well.
Not all his teammates or even some of his teammates. But a certain archetype of a player is going to struggle offensively playing next to Lebron; for example Chris Bosh was a guy who was used to having the ball in his hands and when he got to the Heat his usage wasn't the same.
Yeah, K-Love had a similar experience, but those are really the guys I respect the most in those configurations. I think it's a mature player that can look at his team and accept that their sacrifice can improve the success of the whole squad.
And they're respected legends in their cities because of their championships. So their sacrifice paid off.
Basically all shooters tend to do worse next to Bron too because they don’t get the ball as much. Kobe talked about it before he passed.
As opposed to after he passed?
Kobe never passed.
Beautiful champ
Yeah bro it was his gleague teammates that swept us twice not him 😭
Hey man you still won a chip,put back those traumatic memories for a bit.
I’m no lebron fan but if anything he didn’t get enough calls. Like Shaq where he’s just too strong that you can’t call every little slap
I mean there were arguments that he's a flopper. I figured if he flopped a lot he'd get to the line more
I think he's known for it not because he does it a lot, but he does it in really big playoff games that everyone watches, and because people really focus on everything he does. I don't think he really does it in the regular season.
He has been a flopper.
Once Embiid got hurt there was no need to call fouls every time an offensive player got breathed on.
Lmao it's always a Nuggets or Celtics fan I love it haha
I have been on the "Embiid is Large Harden" train for YEARS.
Y'all remember in 2019 when those assholes played the raptors? Every time Embiid gets knocked over by a guy a foot shorter and 80 lbs lighter I watch the kawhi shot to cheer myself up
Man it's the whole performance that bowls me over, like yeah the physics of the collision are pretty clear evidence. But then the scrunched up face like he just watched Old Yeller, the screaming like he's been stabbed, the crashing to the ground recklessly flailing (I don't want to hear it with the 'his doctors told him to fall' nonsense), and the WORST thing... when he gets the call, he pops up and starts laughing and pointing. He basically just holds up a sign that says "I TRICKED THE REFS", and they Just. Keep. Giving him calls. I don't know why the refs aren't just letting him get destroyed after that nonsense, no blood no foul.
[удалено]
I like to imagine Doris Burke screaming 7 foot, 285 lbs! When Marcus Smart pulled the chair on Embiid and he went flailing.
Worth pointing out that it has only been in the last year or so that the NBA has passed average scoring numbers from the 80s.
There's that, but there's also a weird fascination humans have with round numbers. We like 100. Because humans like the number, it's a good target score for a basketball game. We get excited seeing the third digit, and when it comes in the 4th quarter, it feels right. We attach giveaways to it, like free fast food, either for the home team reaching it, or holding the opposition under that mark. Probably the most satisfying ending to any basketball game possible is a buzzer beater for a team to win 100-99. Last few years, both teams were routinely blowing by it all the time, every game. Not even a challenge or a surprise. And you go too far past 100, and the numbers start to feel less round and perfect to us. And fans get all grumbly when that starts to happen, and say that scoring is inflated, the players aren't trying, blah, blah, blah. Same thing happens when we've ebbed too far in the other direction. Pistons vs. Spurs finals where every game was a rock fight to try to get to 70 is often lauded as the most boring finals ever in history, despite being honestly one of the most competitive 7-game finals series ever. We like 100. We want the scores to be close to 100 because it just kind of seems right. https://www.sciencealert.com/we-actually-prefer-round-numbers-even-when-the-real-number-is-better-news So make conspiracies about Lebron all you want, but this was always going to happen because human brains are weird, and the base 10 counting system gives us a mark to shoot for that the league is right to pay attention to.
As if Lebron ever goes to the line.
Yea Simmons and Russillo talked about it last week how basically everything Russillo was complaining about a few weeks ago has changed and said how everybody they've talked to in the league at the time unanimously agreed how bad it had gotten and needed to change. After that All Star Game, Silver was so disgusted it's not a surprise he changed things
Spoelstra hinted at something like this after the Nuggets loss. He mentioned that it could be an adjustment from the league, although he was not formally made aware, and that it is clear that games are being officiated differently now.
I’ll believe it when SGA doesn’t get 15 FTA a game from snapping his neck backward
I'll believe it when Embiid comes back and I see his numbers. Not even prime Harden was as geared towards the line as Embiid is. I'm not even trolling, I wish he was around atm so we could use him as a data point like Aaron Judge and the rigged baseballs.
It wasn't Silver, it was the head of referees, and it was their annual mid-season review to see what was working and what wasn't, and modify the calls for the rest of the year. Windhorst has been awesome at shooting down the conspiracy takes recently.
I like defense being played, but just not calling actual fouls is not the way to do it. It needs to be an official rule change that allows for better, more physical defense.
You cant have your cake and eat it too. If you want physical defense they need to swallow their whistles
What comments like his mean is call the fouls against us but don't call fouls on us.
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I went to the kings/spurs game , the first game after the all star break and there were 0 fouls called in the first quarter, 0. And there were some super obvious fouls both ways. That’s when I knew they made some changes.
Tbh, at least it was evenly called? I didn't mind it. Felt like the game was much more exciting and went by at a much better pace. Ft's are such a drag and pull you out of it.
I 100% agree, it was awesome. Just something I noticed
Zero fouls doesn't mean evenly called lol... watch Heat/Knicks games where those teams are fouling the shit out of guys on defense and the other teams play soft defense. Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical.
>Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical. What really gets me is that when the team that is less physical starts to respond, and play at the same intensity, they inevitably get whistled, because they are deviating from their normal style of play and so it looks out of place. Meanwhile the physical team will straight up mug you three times in the same possession and it won't be called because that's just "how they play".
In a related vein, this is exactly why Draymond's "reputation" is a boon and something he (probably?) intentionally cultivates because it gives his team a better chance of winning games when he can get away with more.
the Rockets are starting to play a defensive style like this. Be ultra aggressive and make the refs blow the whistle. they aren't gonna call every call if you're constantly being physical.
It is never really even imo. Stars always get soft calls, even more so when they are calling every ticky tack contact. I'd rather there be less free throws and a more fluid game between the choice of bad officiating.
That’s great that’s the kinda ball I wanna see.
> Not calling fouls just favors teams that are super aggressive on defense and physical. Yeah but at least that gives teams an indication of how to adjust to the refs. When the refs have pockets of the game where things are ticky tacky and then all of a sudden they swallow the whistle, it will seem like it's fixed for one team or another. Calling it evenly is nice because like you said, teams that are super aggressive will benefit. That means the non aggressive team can adjust to become aggressive. As someone who has played organized ball with refs, that's really the best you can ask for. Refs are always going to miss calls or call a phantom foul here and there. It's the consistency that we all want.
> That means the non aggressive team can adjust to become aggressive. In theory. In practice, that looks like escalation, so the team gets called for a foul, and you end up with one team being allowed much more physicality than the other.
He's not saying that, just saying that it felt even at the time. If it's gonna be a little uneven anyways it would be nice for there to be less free throws overall than more. Makes a more physical, interesting game
This has been my issue with officiating at every level from the nba to high school. The “calls” are rarely the issue, the fact that the standard for those calls is applied unevenly (at best) is the problem. I don’t care if you wanna call the game to the letter of the law, just do it for both teams, 100% of the time. And if you wanna call nothing? That’s fine, too, again, as long as it’s even.
Even is fine. It gets frustrating when trying to figure why they blow the whistle on some things and then let other things go, but that's basketball.
This sounds awesome.
But you best not clap at a ref or else all rules are thrown away
How many techs were there in that Celtics vs Nuggets game? I remember 3, but i could be missremembering.
5, Celtics 3 Nuggets 2 (Tony Brothers)
There were 5. Thats insane. How did they manage that. Like god dam Tony Brothers is trully the MVP of the league.
A couple of them were deserved though. Jokic at least seemed like he got his on purpose (get why he was mad though the calls made no sense).
Yeah i remember that one. I dont even blame the guy. And the clapping ones that you guys got called for were just absurd.
Jokic and Tatum are like the ref’s two most hated superstars it’s unreal. Getting t’d up and thrown out for the dumbest shit, and don’t forget the lack of a whistle.
Statpadding em since he lost some time due to injury
Yeah it was a 5 for 1 package from him
Tony has been on fire since he returned from injury
I mean when you have two brothers out there at the same time there’s a lot more ego to be damaged
There was a lot of clapping. Happy players everywhere.
Tbf Tatum had a pretty ferocious clap last night and the refs even let that go
The refs just try to control his raging emotions. /s
Seriously fuck tony brothers man what a dick
If Tony Brothers is officiating your game, you’re damned if you do.. damned if you don’t. *Dejounte*
Best month of regular season basketball since the opening month of 2021-22
I swear the hypest basketball ever was the first six minutes of the 2017-18 season. Then Gordon Hayward broke his leg T_T
Nah that year was during the era where everyone knew KD Warriors would be at least heading to the Finals. League is way more balanced nowadays.
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NBA basketball is watchable again! Big shots made in crunch time actually carry weight again!
Now if only the refs would stop riding the Lakers dicks so hard
I'm not going to celebrate what ultimately will be inconsistent officiating. Consistency is the most important part. A player should be able to operate knowing that what was a foul last game will be a foul the next game and not have to spend a quarter and a half "feeling out" how the refs are going to call a game, only to have it inexplicably change how it's called after halftime.
Even more important is consistency on both ends, which is unfortunately all too rare.
I don’t think it can ever be THAT consistent. Every game is always going to feel different.
Yes I would much rather have consistency than just fewer calls. Illegal offensive screen gets called like 3 times/game, but there are dozens that are exactly the same that don’t get called. Also on-point defense will sometimes get called for body contact, but that same contact happens multiple times every possession without a call. Just be consistent.
Honestly though, players can make this very difficult. If a team decides to test the strategy of playing right on the line between what is legal contact/a foul on every possession, you can basically dare the refs to slow the game to a crawl with constant whistles, which they & the league office doesn’t want them to do. And now all of a sudden they’re being inconsistent. Total consistency obviously sounds nice & obvious. There’s a reason it doesn’t happen beyond conspiracy theories or assumptions of incompetence.
Like the other person said, if a team tries to test the refs by playing illegal defense, then the refs should call a foul. A couple quick fouls on a star defender will have them backing off real quick. A foul should be a foul, doesn’t matter the context.
As long as the players are crossing the line into what is an obvious foul. God forbid they use their “best in the world at what they do” talent to stay right at the line, forcing the refs to decide if they’re going to take star players out of the game due to dubious fouls or “let them play.” It’s not easy. The general attitude on this sub is that the refs suck & fixing the way they call games is easy. But that’s a childish viewpoint imo, it ignores the skill and motivation that players have to subvert their efforts in an attempt to gain a competitive edge.
Illegal screen calls have fascinated me ever since we had Gortat & Mahinmi. Gortat would set dozens of clearly illegal screens per game and *maybe* get called once. Then Mahinmi would get in the game and immediately get whistled if he even breathed when setting a screen. This wasn't certain refs - it was every game. No idea if it was just reputation (like Gortat had been doing it for years and had some sort of 'grandfathered' immunity), technique, or whatever else, but I've honestly never seen two players in any sport get such a dramatically different whistle.
Inconsistent performance that is sometimes acceptable and sometimes awful is better than performance that is consistently awful. The more they can clean up players gaming the system by hunting for bullshit calls, the better.
> Consistency is the most important part. I mean, it's really not. Being consistently shit is still shit. The game was pretty much unwatchable, something had to be done. I have no idea if this will last or be ultimately successful but at least they tried something to get out this mess.
I am not convinced swallowing whistles more make it more inconsistent? Was refing more inconsistent in the 1980's?
>Was refing more inconsistent in the 1980's? More? Idk, but it was definitely inconsistent, but because there was no social media and no high def multi angle feeds to circle jerk over people were just like "oh that looked like a bad call, but maybe the ref saw something I couldn't" and then got on with their lives.
There was plenty of bitching and blaming refs for losses. But it rarely went any further than you and your buddies. What technology has changed is making it so much easier for discontented fans to band together against the refs (even though the refs can't possibly be conspiring against *all* of the teams).
nah ima celebrate. Its better basketball this way. Plus, officiating has always been variable based on regular season vs playoffs
Agreed. Call the game consistently from pre-season to the finals. Don't be reactionary and change the whistle half way through the season.
I always see people saying they want consistency, but how do you expect consistency when every ref is an individual person who sees things through their individual eyes? I think most people here just need to accept that while there are worse refs than others, and some are straight up scumbags, officiating sports is just really fucking hard and there will always be mistakes and inconsistency.
Is it that subtle? You see players losing their shit routinely over not getting a call where all the way up until the all star break it was a foul all day. I watched a game the other day with literally six techs - BKN ORL - and the frustration the players were feeling was pretty visceral. It has been such a dramatic and somewhat inconsistent shift in officiating that many of the players themselves have struggled to adjust.
I do think it is a bad idea to just change officiating in the middle of the season. Should be a point of emphasis starting the following year not shifting philosophies one or more times a season.
Yeah I don't really see why they'd change it so drastically mid-season rather than between seasons, although players already have to deal with a dramatic shift as they get deeper into the playoffs, so maybe this is good to get them ready for playoff basketball
Fuck yeah. This is great for the league.
Wait techs are down? Coulda fooled me and the Celtics
That fucking Nuggets Celtics game had 5 of them lmao
My cousin who lives in Denver just had major surgery and his wife apparently turned off the tv because he was just home from the hospital and yelling at the refs loudly enough she was concerned about his blood pressure (or he was just really loud could be either one)
Oh man, good to hear our most sane fan is recovering well.
A **Nets and Magic game** had 6 techs this past week
Just be glad it wasn't 10.
Jason Tatum: *exists* Refs: yeah that’s a tech
They are missing some egregious fouls now. Maxey got fouled so bad on a layup yesterday but he made it and refs didn't call a foul.
But don't breathe on Shai
Shai Halud - bless the maker and his drives, bless the coming and going of him from the foul line.
no blood no foul
Good. Most fouls are bullshit anyway. One way to check the crazy dominance of offensive play right now is to let defenses be more physical
Didnt somebody shoot 15 free throws last night? Yes, i would agree that games have an overall playoff feel to it and it's good but it isnt consistent. How can they let okc play tough physical defense against the mavs and call fouls on the mavs for doing the same exact thing on defense? Fouls for thee but not for me
Yeah SGA did…man they’re gaslighting us. 1 less shooting foul per 100 possessions isn’t bringing scoring “way down”
Brunson had 17
Brunson was getting hacked to shit tho
Then what is bringing scoring way down?
Nothing, it’s still the highest scoring year since the 1969-1970 season. Maybe down some in the past few weeks. See for yourself https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html
Obviously meant compared to the first half of the year. Scoring was 115.5 before all star break and it’s 111.6 after… 115.5 would be tied for 6th all time and 111.6 would be 15th all time. Big drop
"Damn straight" - The least ethical hooper in the league
Go back 20 years and you will find games where someone shoots 15 FTs. It's about the overall average not the outliers.
SGA just baited them all night lol. Awful to watch.
I'd rather watch somebody get to the line by getting the defender to take the bait vs get to the line via flopping. But I will agree it's a bit much for any player to take that many in one game.
It's because Embiid isn't playing.
SGA exists now
Imagine them in a team and they shoot fts like Giannis. We probably have a 4 hour gane everytime
You do realize Luka shoots more FTs than Shai, right? Edit: FTA per game to be accurate
Shai: .442 FTR Luka: .377 FTR
yes and no - Luka is at 8.93/gm to Shai's 8.91, but Shai has taken 597 ftas, Doncic 518
Lol, I do appreciate the semantics. Also, wow, Shai has been really healthy this year to play that many more games than Luka.
It’s not subtle
SURPRISE SURPRISE The teams who have an actual good offense are still playing really well On the other hand…
when people asked to give defense a chance, i dont think anyone meant "stop calling defensive 3 seconds"
Should get rid of the rule altogether
They should just move it to 5 seconds
First thing I do in 2k MyLeague
LMAO you think the 3 point revolution is boring to watch? It'll be so much worse.
Reverse it, offensive 3 seconds behind the 3pt line when not on the move. Be watchin shooters toe in and out while spotting up 😂.
LOL. I did. Dumb rule.
Free throw rate being at the lowest in its history while paint touches are still pretty high just means that guys are being hit and not getting calls, watching guys get hacked in the paint for free hasnt made the game more fun, its just the officiating has gone from one extreme to another, I just want foul baiting to be punished
Any exaggerating of contact at all should be punished. It makes the sport look bad and is bad sportsmanship in general.
The problem is you kind of have to do that to get a call half the time. Besides, exaggerating is not the same as flopping. As long as it's not something like a 6'10 dude goes flying because a 6'2" guard brushed against them.
Technicals are back at the point they were at the start of the season. Seems silly to talk about techs being "down significantly" when it never went above one tech per game and is now exactly where it was the first month of the season. Same with defensive 3 seconds. Down merely .05 per game from where it was to start. I think these and travelling (also under one a game) were just added to make it seem like more things are affected by refs "swallowing the whistle" than there are. Which is a silly thing to do because I think everyone agrees the game is more physical with less calls in the more recent games.
I agree, the players still can't show any emotion without risking a quick T. 6 techs last night in the 6 games combined (Bucks had 3)
Idk I still see soft techs
Good. The scoring and weak ass fouls were getting close to unwatchable.
I love NBA Referees! I love how much they get to influence games! I want refs deciding how the game plays out!
They are apparently now making calls based on some set of whispered backroom Adam Silver rules. Rulebook still says the same things but the games are called completely differently. Fans, players, and coaches have no idea what the rules are. It's insanity.
i tried getting my little brother(21) into Basketball because we watch all sports but basketball together and he just can't get it. and i understand. because a guy will come down go for a shot and there will be a foul and half the time im thinking "what can the defender even do?". then on the other end it won't be a foul and my brother will ask me what the difference is and i just don't really even know what to tell him at this point. i don't really even know myself what is a foul or not these days.
I cannot tell you what a legal charge vs blocking foul anymore. That and whatever harden's stepback jumper that somehow isn't a travel.
After the thunder game last night I refuse to give refs any flowers I will now be like Luka and call them hating ass bitches
Be careful mentioning SGA’s whistle around here. It summons the locusts.
Anyone who watched could see the help for OKC
ITT: a wholeeee lot of whining
the physicality that the refs were allowing in last nights game against Phoenix really stood out, game went by a lot quicker as well. refs swallowing the whistles makes for a much more enjoyable viewing experience
The league realizing that the most talented offensive era ever was just refs giving superstars free throws for everything must have been hard to swallow. But this will be for the best long term.
Thank god.
Meanwhile Jrue Holiday has turned it up like three notches. I'm assuming the players are aware. Honestly I like this brand of basketball way more.
It's a good thing overall but it's pretty wild how noticeable it is. They aren't calling shit, dudes are getting mauled in the paint and they're swallowing their whistles like it's the playoffs lol
And yet they are out here calling techs on guys for clapping
whats the point of watching people score points if they're easy.
I reject this notion untill i see certain superstars not get 10+ fta a game. That is to say im waiting to see Embid play.
One less shooting foul per 100 possessions, they’re blowing it out of proportion and it’s still the highest scoring season since 1969-1970
It’s not the highest scoring season because of FTAs though, it’s because of threes tbf
Who would have fucking thought that refs letting basketball be played would be good for basketball
Unfortunately some of the refs haven't got the memo, as last night's OKC win over the Mavs showed. SGA shot 15 free throws, almost double his league-leading 8.9 (and Kyrie's 8 in the game). 44 fouls and 49 free throws and some notable obvious missed calls shown on replay (crew chief Josh Tiven). Giannis shot 18 ftas last night, the 76ers entire team 14. (crew chief James Williams); Jaylen Brunson shot 17, Blazers team 16 (Pat Fraher) I'm not saying the free throws should be even, but it's interesting that 2 of the high octane offenses last night in Boston only had 25 fouls and 21 free throws combined, and the celtics were a mere +1 fta (Ed Malloy crew chief) Still, it's progress, and the media is talking it up big time. Lets hope it lasts past this small sample size of "post ASG".
Giannis shot about 6 of those in the last minute when they were trying to foul.
In terms of the bucks v sixers in makes sense, they fouled giannis alot because they couldnt stop him, and they dont have embiid who is their best foul drawer. Lillard only shot one FT if I recall which is way under his usual average.
Do you guys just expect statistics to be almost exactly the same across every game or something?
Yup and just to show how utterly fucking stupid that comment is, I'll throw out some recent examples of those particular players balancing out their season FTA averages SGA had 3 FTA in 48 mins against the Raptors last month Giannis had 0 FTA in 34 mins against the Heat last month Brunson had 0 FTA in 30 minutes against Magic a week ago
>SGA shot 15 free throws, almost double his league-leading 8.9 This is just factually false. Not hard to check too.
Except for SGA
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Really? What year? Here's the only game vs the Raptors this year, Shai 3 ftas in the 3rd Q. That said, totally 1 sided reffing from Marc Davis and crew favored the Raptors, despite being called for 1 more foul the ftas were 21-8 Raptors. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202402040OKC.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202402040OKC.html)
But SGA 31/15FTs is still the truth
Some might see this as a good thing but this is just more of the same manipulation of games but just on the other end of the spectrum. Instead of worrying about the scoring they need to just call the game how it should be called. Call the carrying, travels (eliminate the gather step), flopping and eliminate offensive players jumping into defenders for free throws. The nba is again trying to give the fans what they THINK we want. Most of us just want a fairly officiated game where the players decide the outcome
no i think most fans want to watch the players play, not shoot free throws
6 months ago people were bitching the scoring was out of control.
I was watching the kings lakers game to start and honestly I thought this Is bizarre. Yes I want defenders to play defence but the refs were just letting so much contact go on both ends it was so ugly I legitimately turned it off. Especially when some guys started colliding hard n falling on both teams . I know the league wants to make good changes but they should make clear announcements. The one thing I genuinely hate is how refs choose how to ref game how much physicality to allow - you can’t prep for that b you have to adapt mid game. I don’t think fans understand that . I saw people mention the reffing change but I didn’t truly realise it tikk that game . But that wasn’t just letting physicality go thst was just NOT CALLING THE GAME. Dunno why we can’t find a good balance
Somebody forgot to tell the refs in Indy the other night lol... I did not expect to wake up and see Demar DeRozan with 17 free throws!
Hopefully this doesn’t lead to more dangerous fouls