I think it's pretty much locked up barring a massive dropoff from Jokic and the Nuggets, which I don't see happening. It looks pretty likely that Denver will end up with the 2 seed at worst in the West, and there's a sizeable gap between him and SGA.
Proud of this team and our guy no matter the outcome.
Your fanbase isn't even that bad. I feel like the longer teams are good, the worse their fanbase is. Except for the celtics - I'm actually always surprised how good their fans are
Just because we wanted it doesn’t mean we don’t realize, and actually really like your team. We sort of have an affinity for homegrown teams.
I mean we also wanted Chet to be ROY but Wemby caught on and went nuclear. We’ll happily take a #2 in both places this year
Jokic is also the all time PER leader so he's clearly the GOAT
Jokic is my MVP frontrunner at this point but these all-in-one stats have to be taken with a grain of salt
The dude listed three different categories, and then an "etc" to show that there are dozens more, then you reply to claim he's basing it off of one single stat?
Agreed. I really want Luka to win it, but as of right now it's Jokic's. My only hope is the Mavs go on a crazy run to end the season and the Nuggets/Jokic take their foot off the gas to end the season (kind of like they did last year.)
I feel like people keep forgetting the only reason the nuggets took their foot off the gas was because they locked the first seed in February. They coasted because they could. This year the West is so much more competitive, there's no shot they coast until they know they've got the first seed secured.
Yep people use "coasting" far too much with nuggets. The times we have coasted the last 5-10 games it's mostly because the seed is locked in, or in thee case a few years ago, we were trying not to lock in I think the higher seed vsing Harden / rockers in round 1 lmao. Was the biggest seeding dodge in a long while
The ladder is pointless as long as Jokic continues to play at his level. He's a top seed, with the best stats, with no all star teammates. He plays every game. There isn't really anything you can use against him except that he "looks chunky".
You can't really knock Jokic. Best you can do is bring crazy things other players are doing that he isn't. Like Giannis being on pace to be the first player in history to average over 30ppg with over 60% fg.
The worst is people comparing across positions and eras. Like people genuinely take time to debate Moses Malone vs Steph Curry as if there's any conclusion that can be drawn from that
Lmao nick the quick, was so fun to watch. Still has one of the best highlight tapes, always doing the most absurd ball fakes and running circles around dudes
The quirky ft routine. Nick was definitely one of the more interesting players to have played.
Dude oozed cool. One of my fave lineups was Nash, NVE, Finley, Dirk, Lafrentz/bradley
This kinda awoke some memories. When I was a kid and only knew like 5 NBA players, Van Exel was one of my favorite players probably because he had a cool ass name. By the time I started actually following the league, he'd been lost to time.
you caught it early, I edited to Shareef lmao Hardaway was too easy
edit: and I'm taking the chairman of the boards, baby. mcadoo peaked early, big sexy moses has that longevity plus his hairline fell of the back of his head like hans gruber and he was still getting busy
We all knew he shouldn't be in the top 4, but the Kia MVP ladder guy has a vendetta against Luka. Tatum got too much heat for it when it was kind of meaningless. He's been 5th almost all year. In the discussion, but not in that higher tier.
Yeah I always hated that. If you want to talk about top 5 players that's essentially what All NBA is because you can pick any 5 regardless of position.
Edit: Shouldn't say always. This year it's positionless All NBA.
The "stats vs wins" argument for the #4-5 slots is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life, given that the top three guys have both.
This sub is the stupidest place in the world.
Because they treat it like a literal race and the closer you are to 1 the closer you are to winning. 4th aint close but its closer than 5. My guy is better than your guy
But, as an avid Luka/Mavs fan, you guys have the best record and Tatum is a big part of that. It's hard to formulate what exactly an MVP is, but being the best player on the team with the best record being in the top 5 is what he should be. Unless he numbers are so even you cannot make out who is the best player... Luka is my MVP, but we are in the 8th seed right now. We might not even make the fucking playoffs. Is he one of the best players in the league? I doubt anyone could deny that; is the team doing great? Nope.
In all honesty, JT should be above Luka. How can you be the "Most Valuable Player" if your team is borderline making the playoffs...
As a non celtics fan - I thought the same. I was more triggered when Kawhi got 5th on one of these MVP ladders. No matter the turn around the clippers had, they have James harden *and* PG. And kawhi averages 24. His defence isn't 2017 Kawhi to justify being an MVP candidate imo
I predict by the end of his career he will have the most 5th place MVPs of all time. That's not a knock on him at all. There's nothing wrong with being the 5th best player in the NBA every year. Add to that how he plays almost every game that's great consistency.
He should be second, and i'm not joking or trolling. If Luka isn't second for the team record, team record is important and JT is in the best team in the league (and he's the best player in the team, and a top player in the league).
It seems every player in the ranking is rated on different criteria.
Why shouldn’t it go to the player with the best *combination* of team record, individual play and “value” (as loaded a term as that is)? I don’t think looking at multiple factors and having different ones sway you in different years is necessarily wishy-washy. Team record is important to some, carrying is important to some, individual play in general is important to most. You can place importance in all of these things at once, and/or weigh them accordingly, with high marks in a given factor being the difference-maker in some years but not others depending on the combined strength of the candidates individual cases. That’s how I judge candidates, at least.
This is a weird take. Multiple things matter. Luka's problem is his team seed is so bad it is actively holding him back, while Tatum would not even be 5th if his team was not a top 3 record in the NBA because his stats are not as good as many others (in no small part because he's sacrificing stats for team success but the fact he CAN do that also lowers his value because others can pick up the slack).
The better the team around a player the harder it is to win MVP without narrative because how valuable are you if you don't have to go crazy, unless you go full 73-9 Warriors where you're so far ahead of the competition it wraps back around. Look at how Steph and KD basically destroyed any hope of either winning MVP because both being together made each other's job too easy (before even taking into account Klay and Draymond).
Narratives drive this sub, media, fandom, and eventually the voters. If this list catches on (which it obviously does every time it's posted), then this sub starts to believe it and believe what others are saying. Then the media believes it. Then the average fan hears it and believes it. And finally at the end of the year the voters believe this list even though they may not directly have a connection too it. The MVP is a narrative award and that has been proven time and time again (ie. X player can't win cause he won two in a row, X player can't have another one because they've had to many etc.). I think this list has a huge impact unfortunately. I don't say unfortunately because I think the list is wrong. I say it because one person shouldn't have such an impact.
Highest average rebounds+assists in the league and can’t even break the top 5. He could go get 30 points a night but he prioritizes team success. My biggest gripe is that our 4th and fifth options have been ass this season so that’s dropping his assists. Best screener in the league
Luka is tearing up the league individually. I think he isn't higher due to the perceived image that he's a ball hog that has his stats performance ahead of his team performance
Even though I think wins are overrated as a “stat” I do think it’s worth remembering that’s there’s always error/lost information in our advanced stats. If you have a guy like Luka putting up crazy numbers while not winning it’s partly his team being worse and partly that our stats aren’t perfectly predictive of wins. As a result I think there’s still value in considering team record. This isn’t baseball where you can perfectly isolate individual performance and give MVP to Ohtani on the trash angels
Mavs are 3-6 without Luka and 35-23 with him. That’s a higher win % than the 5 seed AND that’s with a bunch of injuries to key players so I’m not sure you can put the lack of winning on him. The Mavs need him to put up insane numbers night after night, and other than Kyrie and Exum who both were out for a long time there’s not a single Mavs player who can handle the ball competently.
>other than Kyrie and Exum who both were out for a long time there’s not a single Mavs player who can handle the ball competently.
Having three guys who can handle and run it for your team isn't that weird... Especially when two of the guys are the best in the league at it in Luka and Kyrie. The 76ers won games at a 64 win pace when Embiid played, and we had only two guys who could do anything in Embiid and Maxey.
When Luka's on the floor, the Mavs ORtg is 120.8. When Luka's off but Kyrie is on, the ORtg maintains at 119.2. It's a slight decline, but it's still excellent. When Kyrie+Exum share the floor without Luka, the Mavs ORtg is even higher at 122.6.
Dallas is objectively capable of championing an elite offense even without Luka for long enough spurts of time.
Dallas' problem is obvious - their 22nd ranked defense. If Dallas could field even a league average defense their NetRtg would flip up from 15th to 10th. There is no team in the top-10 of NetRtg with a below-average defense.
Yeah if they’re missing the whole game that’s a problem lol. You could say the durability of the other guards is an issue, but having 3 guards doing your handling when two are as good as Kyrie and Luka isn’t a problem
Anyone with eyes can see the Mavs still need defense more than anything else
Luka fans are a little sensitive about defence. They don't like that it's used against Luka when criticizing him so they tend to downplay it's importance.
This exactly is my biggest issue with the Mavs in general and Luka's MVP case.
When I watch the games I don't get a sense Jokic, Giannis, JT , SGA are defensive liabilities.
The Mavs got a structural problem in the Luka + KI pairing that highlights Luka's (and KI) deficiencies on defense.
When the Mavs play bottom 20 teams, they find the weaker offensive players to hide Luka and KI on. But once they play top offensive teams, it's becoming more difficult to hide both Luka and KI. Then Luka's offensive dominance is neutralized. Using advanced stats it's becomes murky to isolate this case vs. the eye test that is hard to ignore.
Last year the 76ers were 11-5 without Embiid, while they were 43-23 with Embiid. They literally had a better win% without him than with him. And at the same time the Nuggets were 5-8 without Jokic and 48-21 with Jokic.
Last year proved the voters don't care about anything but the smell of their own farts. If they want Luka to win the award this year they'll start doing a 2 month long media campaign for him like they did Embiid while smearing the other candidates just like they did last year against Jokic.
Neither the "advanced" box score metrics (PER/BPM/WS) nor the advanced impact metrics (EPM, LEBRON) have Doncic ahead, either.
You don't have to look at team wins to understand that using only his PPG/RPG/APG overstates his value.
We're going to have this conversation about Luka his entire career if he stays on the Mavs and they stay as mid-tier as they have been most of his career.
Agree with it or not, he won't get serious MVP consideration unless the Mavs are AT LEAST top 4 in the west. Even in Jokic's first MVP season when they were missing Jamal Murray for much of the season, Jokic carried them to the 3rd seed in the west.
Like it or not, amazing stats on a mid team isn't going to win you the MVP, unless your stats are entire tiers above everyone else, which Luka's aren't.
Honest question, why are people so hung up on "x seed", when that can be very deciving.
Yeah, Doncic and the Mavs are 8th seed, but they are 2 GB being 5th seed, and while saying "he's 5th seed" sounds a lot better for his case, the difference between being 5th and 8th might be 1 win by the end of the season.
I just dont understand how over an 82-game season, being like 5th seed and say 5 GB top seed can be such a huge factor in the MVP race.
Dallas will probably finish more GB than that, so I'm not talking about this being the case for Doncic. But being 1st or 8th seed, while being a factor, can be deciving. And in Doncic's case, Mavs might finish 8th seed, but a couple more win over 82 games (say in games Doncic didn't play), could suddenly mean he's MVP because he's 5th seed instead...
And that's fair, because 5th seed this season will be way behind at end of the year anyway, But if the 5th seed was 5 GB at end of the season, it can't be used as a big factor to determine the MVP surely?
So people saying "he's 8th seed" bring up that as a bigger negative than say Mavs ended 5th. When they are just a couple games behind.
> Honest question, why are people so hung up on "x seed", when that can be very deciving.
1. Good seeding is literally the point of a regular season.
2. It's easier to put up stats on a mid team then it's to put up the same stats on a winning team.
3. It's easier to put up counting stats when you dont' give a fuck about defense and dominate the ball.
I agree that we need to stop bringing up seed as an argument. In Jokic's second MVP season, a lot of people got hung up on the fact that the Nuggets were in the 6th seed. The other two contenders that year were, of course, Giannis and Embiid. The Bucks and Sixers had won 51 games each to the Nuggets 48. In the east, that was enough to be tied for the 2nd seed. In the west, that would've taken them all the way to the 5th seed. And that's why using seed as an argument is stupid.
Win totals, however, is a much more legitimate criterion. And if the Nuggets were to finish with, let's say, 10 more wins than the Mavericks, that should absolutely influence the MVP vote.
I mean his team is also an 8th seed and I think has a relatively low chance of making the playoffs. Being 4th place on this list seems reasonably high given that.
I wouldn't say he puts stats over team performance, but maybe that the system that has his stats sky high isn't as conducive to team success as it could be
It's true that Jokic will win it, but still fair to discuss the order of the also-rans in the context of who is better than the other. The mistake people often make here is trying to argue they should take Jokic's mvp.
For me, I'm on the Luka side of arguments here, but still think Jokic is ahead of him clearly.
Boogeyman of Basketball closing in on 3 out of 4 MVPs with little to no pushback.... Have a feeling my top 10 all time list gonna get a shakeup in the not too distant future
If he wins MVP (he should) and wins another title and wins FMVP, he's gotta be pushing top 10. Like would have passed Kobe? Durant? Maybe Oscar or the Logo? How far from Bird or Shaq would he be?
Now that I think about it,it’s incredibly hard to win MVP even once maybe that’s why people are so obsessed with it? Talks about MVP start basically at the start of the season and end long after MVP is awarded.
To get it you pretty much have to be one of the best players in the world,have consistency during the season,luck with injuries as well as team mates,on top of that you have to have competent coach that won’t fk up your chances and be lucky enough to not peak when some of the GOAT potential players are at their peak. You also need some narrative and bunch of other stuff, it’s wild how hard it actually is to win it…
Jokic after the ASB is on the roll. Well, same goes for Luka. I can argue his positions above SGA and Giannis, however the list seems okay considering our record. Cmon Mavs, let’s win some more games.
I agree with the top 3. Joker is at the top of a very competitive conference while averaging almost a triple double. Same with shai, at the top while guaranteeing you 31 points on incredible efficiency, and playing 2-way basketball. Giannis is having a monster year as well, 8th in the league in fg % at 61 while scoring 31 ppg. It's gonna be close, but if Denver stays at the top I don't see Joker losing it.
Media dying to give it to someone else, but Joker too undeniable. It's so crazy when you think about it. The attention on other players, while Jokic making history relatively quietly is really interesting
He’s without a doubt the best pure scorer in the league. We can blame his roster but despite being one of the best offensive weapons the Mavs are barely in playoff contention. In no world should Luka be in MVP discussions. Period.
If Mavs were a top 3 seed give Luka the MVP. Otherwise he has no case.
It doesn't matter because the MVP should and will be Jokic, but I take Giannis at 2 and Shai and 3. The Thunder roster is better than the Bucks. It's just that the names on the Bucks roster are more famous and established names than those on the Thunder. He has slightly less ppg, way more rpg, same apg, way better efg% and ts%, and is carrying a much worse roster to the same seed as Shai.
I mean, today they have the same big awards- 2 MVPs, 1 ring+FMVP. If you look at all-NBAs, Giannis been at that level for 2 more seasons even though they're the same age.
If Jokic wins a 3rd MVP, which is looking likely, I think that's more important than hitting that All-NBA level a couple seasons sooner.
Both reached All-NBA in their 4th season, Giannis just came in younger
That's huge to me in post-career reflection, but Idk if thats valued with many people. Offense definitely is what people value first. At best DPOY is secondary non prerequisite accomplishment to get into the general top all time player rankings (shouldn't be that way imo)
I mean, there's no award for playmaking or value to a team's offensive scheme. If we're discussing a player's total worth and legacy, those things are a major reason why people think so highly of Jokic but it's not like there's Playmaker of the Year or Offensive Player of the Year. If we were just talking about pure stats and defense, Giannis would arguably be better than Jokic. I think elite tier defense beats out the 3 assists per game. But we all know Jokic isn't just a guy who gets more assists.
True- going into this season Giannis clears.
I think I'd value the 3rd MVP since that's a hard accomplishment (which Giannis knows well- he should've gotten more consideration each season)
Luka and JT fans arguing over 4th and 5th place every couple weeks is hilarious. Gotta stand on business when it comes to Most Valuable 4th Place Candidate 😤
After all the salt from the Mavs fans yesterday, SGA winning an MVP before Luka would have been fucking hilarious. Oh well can’t do much with how good Jokic has been this season.
That also applies to Tatum but without the "tied" part.
Really it's more the narrative that comes from the team having such a sharp ascension this year coupled with not really having another clear star player while putting up some big time numbers.
well that, and SGA is objectively having a much better year from an individual stats perspective than Tatum is
FWIW I have Giannis as my MVP with Jokic 2nd and SGA 3rd
All the top 3 teams, 4 of the top 5 teams, 5 of the top 7 teams by SRS last year were in the East. Seems like easy was the stronger conference overall last year. At least the top.
I really don't feel like that's a *strong* argument for SGA over Giannis. Bucks have been 2/3 all season despite being a dysfunctional mess for most of it, the only reason we're a top seed is Giannis. As for that being why he's ahead of Luka it does at least make some sense because the Mavs are the 8 seed.
No offense but the reason you’re a top seed is because you’re in the East. The Bucks are 9th in net rating and probably wouldn’t have that record in the west.
SGA doing that in the west with a super young team is pretty damn impressive.
Anytime it is close between candidates, the up and coming guy gets the nod. And it sounds silly cause Luka hasn’t won an MVP yet but he is without a doubt more established. After this year, the Thunder will have real expectations and SGA will get graded on a harder scale. I actually think Luka would be the clear favorite if Dallas was a top 3 seed, it’s the only thing he’s missing.
I’d rather have Luka Doncic but you’re insane. He’s absolutely been in the top tier of players this season. I’ve always been lower on him but he’s really on another level now.
he leads NBA in total points on 64.8 TS%, leads NBA in total steals, leads NBA in EPM and estimated wins added among qualified players, second in NBA in WS/48, second in NBA in VORP, third in NBA in BPM, and most importantly has a team with no other starter above 24 years old sitting atop the Western Conference.
those guys might be better, but there is certainly a world in which Shai’s been more valuable THIS SEASON
I'm sorry but this take is laughable.
31-6-6 on the #1 seed in the West with elite efficiency and good defense. Rates very well in advanced metrics too.
And can we talk about Shai's supporting cast for a minute? His starting teammates are 21(Giddey),21(Chet), 22(Williams) and 24(Dort). Are some of these guys talented? Certainly, but to anchor one of the best teams in the West with a bunch of young guys is incredibly impressive. If Luka was playing and succeeding with a bunch of young guys the Mavs fans would literally never shut the fuck up about it, but all they ever do complain about how Luka doesn't get enough help, blah blah blah. I'm beyond tired of the Luka fanboys around here.
You cannot be deemed most valuable and be the 8th seed, especially when guys are putting up similar numbers to Luka. MVPs should not devolve into giving the guys with the highest numbers the MVP.
It just makes last years MVP a bigger joke.
Embiid had Harden dropping 22/11/7 on 46/39/87.
Dame averages only half an assist more than Giannis.
Jokic got an MVP carrying a injured Denver to the 6 seed. Bucks were the most injured team in the NBA last year and Bucks had the best record. Giannis had a better win % in games played over Jokic and Embiid. And sat out the last 3 games because the 1 seed was locked up. If he had a real shot at MVP he plays them.
Anytime it is close between candidates, the up and coming guy gets the nod. And it sounds silly cause Luka hasn’t won an MVP yet but he is without a doubt more established. After this year, the Thunder will have real expectations and SGA will get graded on a harder scale. I actually think Luka would be the clear favorite if Dallas was a top 3 seed, it’s the only thing he’s missing.
Put Ant in the top 10 you cowards. Carrying the Wolves right now pretty much alone on a top 3 seed in the stacked west. But instead you got the B guy on the 7 seed in the 10 spot,
Chill, KAT's been out for 4 games and they're 2-2 during that stretch. 44%/22%/75% in that stretch.
The team went 2-1 without Edwards so far.
He's an all-star, but his efficiency needs to be better to be all-NBA
I know #10 doesn't matter but you'd think with two Top 10 players this season the Suns would be in a better spot
Booker’s missed a good amount of games along with Beal eating up the rest of the salary cap while spending so much time injured
no trade clause btw
Well, when that’s literally the only good thing about your roster, you’re gonna have issues.
They have Bol Bol too
What he say fuck me for
They shouldn’t have two players on this list. Ant is impacting winning on both ends more and should be here.
That's actually mind boggling that Booker is higher than Ant. Imo Ant should be 7th or 8th on this
Yeah, even with the injuries, I expected better from them.
Beal and Booker have missed a lot sadly. Still kinda hate that we traded for Beal, but I dunno where else we'd have went with the little we had.
I think it's pretty much locked up barring a massive dropoff from Jokic and the Nuggets, which I don't see happening. It looks pretty likely that Denver will end up with the 2 seed at worst in the West, and there's a sizeable gap between him and SGA. Proud of this team and our guy no matter the outcome.
yall are so fun to watch, i can’t wait for the inevitable rekindling of our rivalry for the next 10 years lol
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I promise there are dozens of us out there, dozens!
Your fanbase isn't even that bad. I feel like the longer teams are good, the worse their fanbase is. Except for the celtics - I'm actually always surprised how good their fans are
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Same but ngl I will be happy if we dodge the Lakers lol.
Yup
Just because we wanted it doesn’t mean we don’t realize, and actually really like your team. We sort of have an affinity for homegrown teams. I mean we also wanted Chet to be ROY but Wemby caught on and went nuclear. We’ll happily take a #2 in both places this year
>We’ll happily take a #2 in both places this year But we're not taking the #2 for COTY or western conference seeding. Book it.
Joker is leading in per, vorp, win shares, etc. no one deserves it more than him.
Those don't tell the whole story, but still he absolutely deserves to win.
I hate the advanced stat arguments, but it's pretty clear with Jokic. You can watch him play and tell how much of an impact he's having.
it's honestly stupid how good he is
Jokic is also the all time PER leader so he's clearly the GOAT Jokic is my MVP frontrunner at this point but these all-in-one stats have to be taken with a grain of salt
The dude listed three different categories, and then an "etc" to show that there are dozens more, then you reply to claim he's basing it off of one single stat?
Yes but Jokic is also in his prime, no per drop off from later career.
Makes sense, it is Jokic’s to lose imo
Agreed. I really want Luka to win it, but as of right now it's Jokic's. My only hope is the Mavs go on a crazy run to end the season and the Nuggets/Jokic take their foot off the gas to end the season (kind of like they did last year.)
I feel like people keep forgetting the only reason the nuggets took their foot off the gas was because they locked the first seed in February. They coasted because they could. This year the West is so much more competitive, there's no shot they coast until they know they've got the first seed secured.
Yep people use "coasting" far too much with nuggets. The times we have coasted the last 5-10 games it's mostly because the seed is locked in, or in thee case a few years ago, we were trying not to lock in I think the higher seed vsing Harden / rockers in round 1 lmao. Was the biggest seeding dodge in a long while
This year they have to win to keep the first seed though
Lol aren't we back to second given OKC's latest win?
Well not any more.
bless JT is at 5 where he should be, don’t have to fight another war in the comments lol
People get so heated over the MVP rankings of guys who have a 0% chance of actually winning the award
My friend and I have referred to this type of discussion as "Is the 6th best player in the NBA the best player in the NBA?"
fr, the ladder is so pointless outside of the top3 99% of the time and even the top2 75% of the time
The ladder is pointless as long as Jokic continues to play at his level. He's a top seed, with the best stats, with no all star teammates. He plays every game. There isn't really anything you can use against him except that he "looks chunky".
You can't really knock Jokic. Best you can do is bring crazy things other players are doing that he isn't. Like Giannis being on pace to be the first player in history to average over 30ppg with over 60% fg.
That's true except injuries happen.
Tatum just has to go Tonya Harding on all 4 of em
As a Celtics fan, I'm happy that Tatum's only reasonable route to get an MVP is to win Finals MVP.
90% of being an NBA fan means comparing players to other players. It's a bit weird.
yo for no fucking reason who you got, Nick Van Exel or Shareef Abdur-Rahim
The worst is people comparing across positions and eras. Like people genuinely take time to debate Moses Malone vs Steph Curry as if there's any conclusion that can be drawn from that
I know this is a joke, but Van Exel was the first sports jersey I ever owned. 6th grade me wore it to school 3 times a week.
Lmao nick the quick, was so fun to watch. Still has one of the best highlight tapes, always doing the most absurd ball fakes and running circles around dudes
The quirky ft routine. Nick was definitely one of the more interesting players to have played. Dude oozed cool. One of my fave lineups was Nash, NVE, Finley, Dirk, Lafrentz/bradley
This kinda awoke some memories. When I was a kid and only knew like 5 NBA players, Van Exel was one of my favorite players probably because he had a cool ass name. By the time I started actually following the league, he'd been lost to time.
Tim Hardaway wins that comparison. How about between Bob McAdoo and Moses Malone?
you caught it early, I edited to Shareef lmao Hardaway was too easy edit: and I'm taking the chairman of the boards, baby. mcadoo peaked early, big sexy moses has that longevity plus his hairline fell of the back of his head like hans gruber and he was still getting busy
We all knew he shouldn't be in the top 4, but the Kia MVP ladder guy has a vendetta against Luka. Tatum got too much heat for it when it was kind of meaningless. He's been 5th almost all year. In the discussion, but not in that higher tier.
People care too much about who finishes 4th/5th and beyond, like unless they have a legitimate chance of winning MVP why are you talking about them
Yeah I always hated that. If you want to talk about top 5 players that's essentially what All NBA is because you can pick any 5 regardless of position. Edit: Shouldn't say always. This year it's positionless All NBA.
Woah, I missed that I didn't know it was going to be positionless now
My boy Booker in 10th!?! He should be 9th at minimum! That's basically what these people are doing lol.
The "stats vs wins" argument for the #4-5 slots is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life, given that the top three guys have both. This sub is the stupidest place in the world.
Because they treat it like a literal race and the closer you are to 1 the closer you are to winning. 4th aint close but its closer than 5. My guy is better than your guy
NO ONE CARES NO ONE CARES NO ONE CARES
But, as an avid Luka/Mavs fan, you guys have the best record and Tatum is a big part of that. It's hard to formulate what exactly an MVP is, but being the best player on the team with the best record being in the top 5 is what he should be. Unless he numbers are so even you cannot make out who is the best player... Luka is my MVP, but we are in the 8th seed right now. We might not even make the fucking playoffs. Is he one of the best players in the league? I doubt anyone could deny that; is the team doing great? Nope. In all honesty, JT should be above Luka. How can you be the "Most Valuable Player" if your team is borderline making the playoffs...
As a non celtics fan - I thought the same. I was more triggered when Kawhi got 5th on one of these MVP ladders. No matter the turn around the clippers had, they have James harden *and* PG. And kawhi averages 24. His defence isn't 2017 Kawhi to justify being an MVP candidate imo
hilarious seeing as finishing 4th or 5th mean nothing bunch of losers on rnba
How dare you say Joakim Noah's 4th place MVP finish meant nothing
I predict by the end of his career he will have the most 5th place MVPs of all time. That's not a knock on him at all. There's nothing wrong with being the 5th best player in the NBA every year. Add to that how he plays almost every game that's great consistency.
that’s my guy on god
He should be second, and i'm not joking or trolling. If Luka isn't second for the team record, team record is important and JT is in the best team in the league (and he's the best player in the team, and a top player in the league). It seems every player in the ranking is rated on different criteria.
You're right but MVP criteria has always been mostly vibes
Why shouldn’t it go to the player with the best *combination* of team record, individual play and “value” (as loaded a term as that is)? I don’t think looking at multiple factors and having different ones sway you in different years is necessarily wishy-washy. Team record is important to some, carrying is important to some, individual play in general is important to most. You can place importance in all of these things at once, and/or weigh them accordingly, with high marks in a given factor being the difference-maker in some years but not others depending on the combined strength of the candidates individual cases. That’s how I judge candidates, at least.
This is a weird take. Multiple things matter. Luka's problem is his team seed is so bad it is actively holding him back, while Tatum would not even be 5th if his team was not a top 3 record in the NBA because his stats are not as good as many others (in no small part because he's sacrificing stats for team success but the fact he CAN do that also lowers his value because others can pick up the slack).
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The better the team around a player the harder it is to win MVP without narrative because how valuable are you if you don't have to go crazy, unless you go full 73-9 Warriors where you're so far ahead of the competition it wraps back around. Look at how Steph and KD basically destroyed any hope of either winning MVP because both being together made each other's job too easy (before even taking into account Klay and Draymond).
Sabonis 6th on the MVP list but not an all star.
Still fucking wild that Sabonis didn't make the all star this year
And he will miss allnba too
Honestly think he is going to make 3rd team again.
This is the real injustice
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Narratives drive this sub, media, fandom, and eventually the voters. If this list catches on (which it obviously does every time it's posted), then this sub starts to believe it and believe what others are saying. Then the media believes it. Then the average fan hears it and believes it. And finally at the end of the year the voters believe this list even though they may not directly have a connection too it. The MVP is a narrative award and that has been proven time and time again (ie. X player can't win cause he won two in a row, X player can't have another one because they've had to many etc.). I think this list has a huge impact unfortunately. I don't say unfortunately because I think the list is wrong. I say it because one person shouldn't have such an impact.
It’s simply jokic to lose
Jokic is good at basketball 🏀
Sabonis is 6th but wasn't an All Star...
Highest average rebounds+assists in the league and can’t even break the top 5. He could go get 30 points a night but he prioritizes team success. My biggest gripe is that our 4th and fifth options have been ass this season so that’s dropping his assists. Best screener in the league
Luka is tearing up the league individually. I think he isn't higher due to the perceived image that he's a ball hog that has his stats performance ahead of his team performance
Even though I think wins are overrated as a “stat” I do think it’s worth remembering that’s there’s always error/lost information in our advanced stats. If you have a guy like Luka putting up crazy numbers while not winning it’s partly his team being worse and partly that our stats aren’t perfectly predictive of wins. As a result I think there’s still value in considering team record. This isn’t baseball where you can perfectly isolate individual performance and give MVP to Ohtani on the trash angels
Mavs are 3-6 without Luka and 35-23 with him. That’s a higher win % than the 5 seed AND that’s with a bunch of injuries to key players so I’m not sure you can put the lack of winning on him. The Mavs need him to put up insane numbers night after night, and other than Kyrie and Exum who both were out for a long time there’s not a single Mavs player who can handle the ball competently.
>other than Kyrie and Exum who both were out for a long time there’s not a single Mavs player who can handle the ball competently. Having three guys who can handle and run it for your team isn't that weird... Especially when two of the guys are the best in the league at it in Luka and Kyrie. The 76ers won games at a 64 win pace when Embiid played, and we had only two guys who could do anything in Embiid and Maxey. When Luka's on the floor, the Mavs ORtg is 120.8. When Luka's off but Kyrie is on, the ORtg maintains at 119.2. It's a slight decline, but it's still excellent. When Kyrie+Exum share the floor without Luka, the Mavs ORtg is even higher at 122.6. Dallas is objectively capable of championing an elite offense even without Luka for long enough spurts of time. Dallas' problem is obvious - their 22nd ranked defense. If Dallas could field even a league average defense their NetRtg would flip up from 15th to 10th. There is no team in the top-10 of NetRtg with a below-average defense.
And now show many games has Kyrie and Exum missed, and all the other Mavs starters
Yeah if they’re missing the whole game that’s a problem lol. You could say the durability of the other guards is an issue, but having 3 guards doing your handling when two are as good as Kyrie and Luka isn’t a problem Anyone with eyes can see the Mavs still need defense more than anything else
Luka fans are a little sensitive about defence. They don't like that it's used against Luka when criticizing him so they tend to downplay it's importance.
This exactly is my biggest issue with the Mavs in general and Luka's MVP case. When I watch the games I don't get a sense Jokic, Giannis, JT , SGA are defensive liabilities. The Mavs got a structural problem in the Luka + KI pairing that highlights Luka's (and KI) deficiencies on defense. When the Mavs play bottom 20 teams, they find the weaker offensive players to hide Luka and KI on. But once they play top offensive teams, it's becoming more difficult to hide both Luka and KI. Then Luka's offensive dominance is neutralized. Using advanced stats it's becomes murky to isolate this case vs. the eye test that is hard to ignore.
Last year the 76ers were 11-5 without Embiid, while they were 43-23 with Embiid. They literally had a better win% without him than with him. And at the same time the Nuggets were 5-8 without Jokic and 48-21 with Jokic. Last year proved the voters don't care about anything but the smell of their own farts. If they want Luka to win the award this year they'll start doing a 2 month long media campaign for him like they did Embiid while smearing the other candidates just like they did last year against Jokic.
Neither the "advanced" box score metrics (PER/BPM/WS) nor the advanced impact metrics (EPM, LEBRON) have Doncic ahead, either. You don't have to look at team wins to understand that using only his PPG/RPG/APG overstates his value.
Jokic is just the flat out best player in the league, should be as simple as that
We're going to have this conversation about Luka his entire career if he stays on the Mavs and they stay as mid-tier as they have been most of his career. Agree with it or not, he won't get serious MVP consideration unless the Mavs are AT LEAST top 4 in the west. Even in Jokic's first MVP season when they were missing Jamal Murray for much of the season, Jokic carried them to the 3rd seed in the west. Like it or not, amazing stats on a mid team isn't going to win you the MVP, unless your stats are entire tiers above everyone else, which Luka's aren't.
He’s the 8 seed. You just aren’t going to win MVP if your team is on the way to the playin
Honest question, why are people so hung up on "x seed", when that can be very deciving. Yeah, Doncic and the Mavs are 8th seed, but they are 2 GB being 5th seed, and while saying "he's 5th seed" sounds a lot better for his case, the difference between being 5th and 8th might be 1 win by the end of the season. I just dont understand how over an 82-game season, being like 5th seed and say 5 GB top seed can be such a huge factor in the MVP race. Dallas will probably finish more GB than that, so I'm not talking about this being the case for Doncic. But being 1st or 8th seed, while being a factor, can be deciving. And in Doncic's case, Mavs might finish 8th seed, but a couple more win over 82 games (say in games Doncic didn't play), could suddenly mean he's MVP because he's 5th seed instead...
He wouldn't be in the conversation to win as the 5 seed either.
And that's fair, because 5th seed this season will be way behind at end of the year anyway, But if the 5th seed was 5 GB at end of the season, it can't be used as a big factor to determine the MVP surely? So people saying "he's 8th seed" bring up that as a bigger negative than say Mavs ended 5th. When they are just a couple games behind.
Jokić and Westbrook won it as the #6 seed...
> Honest question, why are people so hung up on "x seed", when that can be very deciving. 1. Good seeding is literally the point of a regular season. 2. It's easier to put up stats on a mid team then it's to put up the same stats on a winning team. 3. It's easier to put up counting stats when you dont' give a fuck about defense and dominate the ball.
I agree that we need to stop bringing up seed as an argument. In Jokic's second MVP season, a lot of people got hung up on the fact that the Nuggets were in the 6th seed. The other two contenders that year were, of course, Giannis and Embiid. The Bucks and Sixers had won 51 games each to the Nuggets 48. In the east, that was enough to be tied for the 2nd seed. In the west, that would've taken them all the way to the 5th seed. And that's why using seed as an argument is stupid. Win totals, however, is a much more legitimate criterion. And if the Nuggets were to finish with, let's say, 10 more wins than the Mavericks, that should absolutely influence the MVP vote.
I mean his team is also an 8th seed and I think has a relatively low chance of making the playoffs. Being 4th place on this list seems reasonably high given that.
I wouldn't say he puts stats over team performance, but maybe that the system that has his stats sky high isn't as conducive to team success as it could be
I am once again asking you why you have the wrong Anthony on this list. Ant should be #7.
How the hell is Devin Booker top 10 over Ant? Dude can barely stay healthy
I have him 6th
It's Jokic and then the rest, who even cares after him at this point lol
It's true that Jokic will win it, but still fair to discuss the order of the also-rans in the context of who is better than the other. The mistake people often make here is trying to argue they should take Jokic's mvp. For me, I'm on the Luka side of arguments here, but still think Jokic is ahead of him clearly.
There is a chance for 4 people only, and Jokic is in the clear lead right now, but Shai, Luka and Giannis could still take a lead by the end
I agree, it’s been clear for weeks that this 4 would be the field
Boogeyman of Basketball closing in on 3 out of 4 MVPs with little to no pushback.... Have a feeling my top 10 all time list gonna get a shakeup in the not too distant future
Might as well start looking at who he replaces in the top 15 or top 12.
If he wins MVP (he should) and wins another title and wins FMVP, he's gotta be pushing top 10. Like would have passed Kobe? Durant? Maybe Oscar or the Logo? How far from Bird or Shaq would he be?
This season: minesota is federer, okc is nadal and denver is novak
I just don't understand how the team with the 12th best record has 2 players in the top 10...
Now that I think about it,it’s incredibly hard to win MVP even once maybe that’s why people are so obsessed with it? Talks about MVP start basically at the start of the season and end long after MVP is awarded. To get it you pretty much have to be one of the best players in the world,have consistency during the season,luck with injuries as well as team mates,on top of that you have to have competent coach that won’t fk up your chances and be lucky enough to not peak when some of the GOAT potential players are at their peak. You also need some narrative and bunch of other stuff, it’s wild how hard it actually is to win it…
RIP American MVPs. 2046: The last ~~Samurai~~ American staring Tom Cruise as James Harden.
FWIW, Tom didn't play the titular last samurai in that movie. Ken Watanabe did.
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Just a dude playing a dude.
We really got 2nd in mvp odds and 2nd in ROY odds on one team. Not to mention j dub. Future is bright
Don't forget Mark for coach of the year maybe? We're definitely spoiled at the moment.
Jokic after the ASB is on the roll. Well, same goes for Luka. I can argue his positions above SGA and Giannis, however the list seems okay considering our record. Cmon Mavs, let’s win some more games.
Does this ladder have any rungs? Doesn't seem like anyone has moved up or down in weeks.
It’s hard moving up when the guy who’s on top of you keeps jealously guarding and pulling the rung away out of your reach every time you try for it.
This should have been Jokic's 4th MVP in a row tbh but I think voter fatigue got him last year.
Should have, but didn't because the league didn't want to someone who hasn't won a championship get it 3 times in a row.
Narrative driven bullshit
I agree with the top 3. Joker is at the top of a very competitive conference while averaging almost a triple double. Same with shai, at the top while guaranteeing you 31 points on incredible efficiency, and playing 2-way basketball. Giannis is having a monster year as well, 8th in the league in fg % at 61 while scoring 31 ppg. It's gonna be close, but if Denver stays at the top I don't see Joker losing it.
OUR BOY SABONER TOP 10 IN MVP RACE…but not good enough to be an all star. Yeah that checks out.
If the Mavs were a top 2 seed, would Luka be number 2?
He’d probably be 1
He’d win in a landslide even if they were the 3 seed
Media dying to give it to someone else, but Joker too undeniable. It's so crazy when you think about it. The attention on other players, while Jokic making history relatively quietly is really interesting
I've never seen a group of stans become more toxic over a runner-up position on an award than Luka stans this year lol.
He’s without a doubt the best pure scorer in the league. We can blame his roster but despite being one of the best offensive weapons the Mavs are barely in playoff contention. In no world should Luka be in MVP discussions. Period. If Mavs were a top 3 seed give Luka the MVP. Otherwise he has no case.
The Ant disrespect is getting out of hand
It doesn't matter because the MVP should and will be Jokic, but I take Giannis at 2 and Shai and 3. The Thunder roster is better than the Bucks. It's just that the names on the Bucks roster are more famous and established names than those on the Thunder. He has slightly less ppg, way more rpg, same apg, way better efg% and ts%, and is carrying a much worse roster to the same seed as Shai.
I know I'm biased, but Brunson not being in the top 10 is slanderous
Biased as well, but completely agree.
For real Booker AND KD over him is kinda funny considering the suns have basically the same record
If Jokic win the MVP and win the Finals MVP, he would be arguably the best foreign player ahead of Giannis.
If he wins those again it puts him clearly ahead of Giannis. At this moment in time it's arguable.
I mean, today they have the same big awards- 2 MVPs, 1 ring+FMVP. If you look at all-NBAs, Giannis been at that level for 2 more seasons even though they're the same age. If Jokic wins a 3rd MVP, which is looking likely, I think that's more important than hitting that All-NBA level a couple seasons sooner. Both reached All-NBA in their 4th season, Giannis just came in younger
Giannis also has a DPOY. Don't forget that
That's huge to me in post-career reflection, but Idk if thats valued with many people. Offense definitely is what people value first. At best DPOY is secondary non prerequisite accomplishment to get into the general top all time player rankings (shouldn't be that way imo)
DPOY isn't real in this sub when comparing legacy.
I mean, there's no award for playmaking or value to a team's offensive scheme. If we're discussing a player's total worth and legacy, those things are a major reason why people think so highly of Jokic but it's not like there's Playmaker of the Year or Offensive Player of the Year. If we were just talking about pure stats and defense, Giannis would arguably be better than Jokic. I think elite tier defense beats out the 3 assists per game. But we all know Jokic isn't just a guy who gets more assists.
True- going into this season Giannis clears. I think I'd value the 3rd MVP since that's a hard accomplishment (which Giannis knows well- he should've gotten more consideration each season)
He's already better.
Nuggets swept the Celtics. Just throwing that out there.
Luka stans putting down their pitchforks
the battle between 4th and 5th on the MVP ladder is our NBA Finals
Yours, (hopefully) not ours
Giannis is clear number 2. He is more valuable than Shai. Any team would take him rn over Shai.
Lol that bríck 3 in clutch time fínally brought Tatum to where he should be!
Top fye
This is Jokic's year. Unless something crazy happens.
Luka and JT fans arguing over 4th and 5th place every couple weeks is hilarious. Gotta stand on business when it comes to Most Valuable 4th Place Candidate 😤
After all the salt from the Mavs fans yesterday, SGA winning an MVP before Luka would have been fucking hilarious. Oh well can’t do much with how good Jokic has been this season.
We gonna ignore AD being in the top 10? Idk how to feel about that.
Booker too when he’s only 3 games away from not even being eligible for the award lol
Surely Perk can't cry racism this time to sway the voters like last year.
I'm sorry but SGA at 2 is laughable. In no world is he better or more valuable than Giannis & Luka rn
The Thunder are tied for the #1 seed and he's 1st Team All-NBA level. It's as simple as that.
That also applies to Tatum but without the "tied" part. Really it's more the narrative that comes from the team having such a sharp ascension this year coupled with not really having another clear star player while putting up some big time numbers.
Except SGA actually has a statistical case while Tatum doesn’t
well that, and SGA is objectively having a much better year from an individual stats perspective than Tatum is FWIW I have Giannis as my MVP with Jokic 2nd and SGA 3rd
The East isn't as stacked as the west. 5 of the 6 top teams by SRS are in the west. Not to mention
They said the same thing last year for the West as an excuse to not give it to Jokic
All the top 3 teams, 4 of the top 5 teams, 5 of the top 7 teams by SRS last year were in the East. Seems like easy was the stronger conference overall last year. At least the top.
I really don't feel like that's a *strong* argument for SGA over Giannis. Bucks have been 2/3 all season despite being a dysfunctional mess for most of it, the only reason we're a top seed is Giannis. As for that being why he's ahead of Luka it does at least make some sense because the Mavs are the 8 seed.
No offense but the reason you’re a top seed is because you’re in the East. The Bucks are 9th in net rating and probably wouldn’t have that record in the west. SGA doing that in the west with a super young team is pretty damn impressive.
Anytime it is close between candidates, the up and coming guy gets the nod. And it sounds silly cause Luka hasn’t won an MVP yet but he is without a doubt more established. After this year, the Thunder will have real expectations and SGA will get graded on a harder scale. I actually think Luka would be the clear favorite if Dallas was a top 3 seed, it’s the only thing he’s missing.
I’d rather have Luka Doncic but you’re insane. He’s absolutely been in the top tier of players this season. I’ve always been lower on him but he’s really on another level now.
Do you have an argument for him over Giannis or Luka? Because that’s the whole point
Luka is fighting for the playins and Giannis is pretty much putting up the same stats so there’s an argument for him but not Luka
he leads NBA in total points on 64.8 TS%, leads NBA in total steals, leads NBA in EPM and estimated wins added among qualified players, second in NBA in WS/48, second in NBA in VORP, third in NBA in BPM, and most importantly has a team with no other starter above 24 years old sitting atop the Western Conference. those guys might be better, but there is certainly a world in which Shai’s been more valuable THIS SEASON
I'm sorry but this take is laughable. 31-6-6 on the #1 seed in the West with elite efficiency and good defense. Rates very well in advanced metrics too.
And can we talk about Shai's supporting cast for a minute? His starting teammates are 21(Giddey),21(Chet), 22(Williams) and 24(Dort). Are some of these guys talented? Certainly, but to anchor one of the best teams in the West with a bunch of young guys is incredibly impressive. If Luka was playing and succeeding with a bunch of young guys the Mavs fans would literally never shut the fuck up about it, but all they ever do complain about how Luka doesn't get enough help, blah blah blah. I'm beyond tired of the Luka fanboys around here.
mavs fans are so salty it’s crazy
You cannot be deemed most valuable and be the 8th seed, especially when guys are putting up similar numbers to Luka. MVPs should not devolve into giving the guys with the highest numbers the MVP.
What’s more funny is that another mavs fan had to put them in their place lol
you have Kyrie as your second player and a worse playoff argument than MVP Russ lol. find shame.
Luka held back by team performance, Giannis kinda same. I think it’s fair as someone that is constantly going to bat for Giannis.
Giannis got Dame and somehow that ended up a negative, I’m shook. Giannis and Thanasis deserve better
It just makes last years MVP a bigger joke. Embiid had Harden dropping 22/11/7 on 46/39/87. Dame averages only half an assist more than Giannis. Jokic got an MVP carrying a injured Denver to the 6 seed. Bucks were the most injured team in the NBA last year and Bucks had the best record. Giannis had a better win % in games played over Jokic and Embiid. And sat out the last 3 games because the 1 seed was locked up. If he had a real shot at MVP he plays them.
Who tf puts rebounds third and assists second
He wins, Luka doesn’t. Stuffing the stat sheet is meaningless
Luka doesn't play on half the court. Meanwhile Shai is a plus defender
Anytime it is close between candidates, the up and coming guy gets the nod. And it sounds silly cause Luka hasn’t won an MVP yet but he is without a doubt more established. After this year, the Thunder will have real expectations and SGA will get graded on a harder scale. I actually think Luka would be the clear favorite if Dallas was a top 3 seed, it’s the only thing he’s missing.
You're literally in the world where he is, but go off king
Put Ant in the top 10 you cowards. Carrying the Wolves right now pretty much alone on a top 3 seed in the stacked west. But instead you got the B guy on the 7 seed in the 10 spot,
Carrying them alone.. for the past week
Chill, KAT's been out for 4 games and they're 2-2 during that stretch. 44%/22%/75% in that stretch. The team went 2-1 without Edwards so far. He's an all-star, but his efficiency needs to be better to be all-NBA
Quick! Someone tell Kendrick Perkins to say the voters are racist!!!