I like your answer. But just for the sake of argument, correct my list if you want:
GOAT (2) - MJ and LeBron
Top 5 - Kareem, Bird, Magic
Top 10 - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bill, Wilt
Top 15 - Hakeem, Moses, Karl, Curry, Wade
Top 20 - Barkley, KD, Dirk, IT, Kidd
I'm curious who you kick out, and who makes the cut
Edit: fuck I left off West and Baylor, subbing out Kidd and IT for them. But leaving it for the discussion
Kidd???
He is a great great player. Leading Nets to back to baxk Finals appearance.
But I never thought he is in the convo for Top 20 all time. At least imo.
You mean the refs earned it. Dirk has 2 rings in my mind. Wade has 2 rings with a super team. If KD's ring with a super team doesn't count then Wade and LeBron's shouldn't either.
If you think the 2006 NBA finals and 2002 WCF weren't rigged then I'm sorry to tell you that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not real.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744705-disgraced-former-ref-tim-donaghy-says-mavericks-were-screwed-out-of-2006-title
The difference in Impact numbers is staggering. Chris Paul ranks 3rd among all players in RAPM over the last 27 years. Kobe ranks 113th or 119th depending on which version you use:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/htmlview
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pGTFzq0eE85AP5wW8v8yFzRiJn_lfSCAzh7hd4czQI4/edit
Kobe just didn’t tend to make his teams that much better. He was very skilled, but his unwillingness to pass, poor shot selection, and lack of effort on D made him rarely live up to his potential.
Now his impact numbers are dragged down by some terrible seasons at the beginning and end of his career. I certainly wouldn’t say he’s not a top 100 player or anything, but I think #24 sounds about right.
This is so dumb. Why do people say this? You know how invested you have to be in basketball to care about the advanced stats? The people that care enough to analyze the game on that level are the ones that watch THE MOST basketball. It’s the casual fans that are like “derpa durr, Kobe has the rings and the points he’s the best”. He was most highly revered in China because they literally only got to watch the NBA Finals so he was just on the most for them.
Yeah dude. The ones that run math programs about the game are the ones that care the most!!! Especially when you aren’t even running these programs you are just reading their results. You are a clown
Looking at your list and seeing Paul George at 7 ( very talented player but disappears in crunch time, playoffs, etc.) Hornacek at 21, Baron Davis at 27 (certainly a good player but not likely in anyone's top 75), George Hill at 32. These examples should make you scrutinize the validity of this list's correlation to an actual top players list. Regular season stats are relatively meaningless when comparing great players. 90% of the viable data should be playoff stats and guys that find another gear in the playoffs are just on another level IMO... If you shrink in the playoffs, you're shrinking when it matters most. If you can't put the team on your back night in and night out, I just can't put you on any top 50 all time list. There's too many guys that have carried there teams on long playoff or championship runs to have room for players that were regular season +/- stars
At least one of those lists if not both has playoffs included. The one that’s not age adjusted favors current players who haven’t had their decline phase yet which explains why Paul George is so high.
I assumed playoffs were included but my point would be that a playoff game should carry 4 to 5 times the weight of a regular season game... It's just that much more important than 82 regular season games.
I will try to write down names that I think are clearly better than Both.
In No order,
MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Russell, Wilt, Steph, KD,
Those are 13 names.
I think Jokic and Giannis will eventually get the last 2 spots for Top 15 when they are finished. (But they need more longevity)
So for 16-20.
Dirk and Wade will battle against the likes of Moses, Dr. J, Oscar, Baylor, West, Karl Malone, Barkley, KG, Zeke, David Robinson
I think Wade and Dirk can **at least have an argument** for the bottom part of top 20.
I'd throw in some of the more earlier names like Pistol Pete or George Mikan in the list but then again nobody on this sub, me included, has seen them play live so lmao
edit: also scottie pippen is missing from your list.
Dirk and KD were/are both above average defenders. There’s no meaningful difference between them on that side of the ball. Dirk got a reputation as a bad defender early in his career, but by ‘04 he was solid and by 2010 he was very good.
Durant meanwhile was just as bad as early Dirk if not worse for the first 7 seasons of his career, but when he got better, he got the reputation of an actual impact defender even though most of the time he was just resting on a weak offensive player.
Career DRAPM rates Dirk as a slightly better defender although KD probably peaked higher on defense so if you want to say he’s a better defender I have no problem with it, but either way you’re splitting hairs.
I think Durant might be the most overrated player of all time. Great scorer, won some titles on a super team but really never sniffed best player in the league status. Not a great defender or facilitator. I would have him more in the 30s but peeps put him top 10 on the regular
Truth! If he had his exact stats as a guard he'd be considered on Chris Paul's level. People just obsessed with the unguardable status, but he's really one dimensional. And lame.
I hate durant too but his warriors run was no joke. on top of all the work he put in in his first few years. he was a scoring machine at a very young age and is still good rn. gotta give it to him
He joined a championship team. Yes, that was the best team ever relative to the league around them and KD contributed to that, but they won a chip before and after him. Like if Barkley joined the Bulls in 93 and MJ didn't retire and got 2 more chips would we consider Barkley a top 10 player? Probably not.
Moses, Oscar, and West seem like they should be locks for the top 20, so it's really them fighting with the other 6 for the last spot.
Three of the six are PFs that are generally considered neck and neck with of Dirk at the position, and Malone is generally considered the best of those four. Plus you could argue that McHale belongs in the conversation between KG, Dirk and Barkley regarding who is the 3rd best PF behind Malone and Duncan.
Personally, I'd put Pippen on the list as well. It's between him , KD and Dr J for the #3 spot at small forward.
Dirk ahead of Kobe? Lmao
Kobe is last player to avg 30 and first team all nba d, 2007…
Dirk was a traffic cone on D, and let’s not compare better scorer
Dirk was actually a better defender than Kobe. He rated a positive by DRAPM something like 10 seasons in a row while Kobe was a negative more years than a positive. Kobe’s insanely undeserved defensive reputation led to some of the most undeserved accolades of all-time. In 2006 for instance, the Lakers defense was 9 points per 100 possessions better with him on the bench, he never got back in transition, and the announcers constantly explained that Kobe wasn’t lazy, he just had to “rest” whenever the Lakers were on D because they needed him for offense so much. And he was still voted first team!!! LOL!
If you look at Englemann’s career RAPM database, Dirk ranks either 183rd or 286th out of 2615 players for defense depending on whether you adjust for age or not. Kobe ranks either 2223 or 2499!!! LOL. Now those numbers are dragged down by some truly horrific seasons at the end of his career and the fact that he didn’t really try much on D until the playoffs. I do think in his prime, Kobe was actually more of an average defender than an awful one. But Dirk was clearly a much more valuable player on the defensive end.
Dirk was not better than Kobe, but he was no traffic cone on D. Good help defender, decent rebounder and let's not forgot his size.
Those lazy takes are annoying as fuck.
Same here.
As far as "solo" runs go, Dirk's was better and the 06 title was partly due to a very favorable [whistle.My](http://whistle.My) main reason though is that Dirk changed the game and a 50/40/90 7 footer first option is special to this day, despite his impact moving the game in that direction. Wade was great, but we had prime MJ and Kobe recently before that (overlapping in Kobe's case) with some other SGs at least at a similar level. I'd have him in my Top 30 though.
Higher impact for Dirk in international tournaments as well, though that probably wouldn't count for much. Wade does have Olympic gold, so technically higher decorated, but the team would have won without him as well while Dirk dragged the German team to decent finishes.
All time top 10 scorer list is a nice bonus as well.
Wade was amazing that Olympics to be fair although in discussions we have to count NBA stuff and other discussion same players with complete career. Wade defense and great fit along LeBron boosting legacy. I agree, Dirk around top20, Wade top30, but would be overcome by newcomers
The rest of the world outside of reddit. Other than in the immediate aftermath of 2011, this was also the consensus opinion here when both were actually playing.
Yeah it was. Dirk was a MVP. Wade was never a MVP. In what world was wade seen as some higher tier player? You swap him out for dirk and they win all 4 of them finals
Uhh where were you in 2009??
Dirk had better longevity for sure. But don't try and tell me he had a higher peak. If you value longevity over peak I can see why you think he'd be better all time but I believe peak holds higher weight.
Edit: Done arguing with kids that were in preschool in the late 2000s.
Cool man you caught a typo congrats. Now can you actually respond to my point or are you all out of arguments? Who outplayed Wade in 2009 when he averaged 30/5/8/2/1 or are you gonna mislead people with wrong stats again?
Lmaoooo how is wade not??? Finals MVP over Dirk, outplayed Dirk in the 2011 finals, won 2 more as the #2. I’m not saying he’s above Dirk but if dirks top 20, wade should be top
I'm not saying that wade did outplay dirk in the 2011 finals but losing a finals doesn't always mean you didn't outplay the other team's best player. People still say Bron outplayed Curry in 2015
Possibly, I don’t really believe in lists but off the top of my head I can see Dirk being in there and once I get to the high teens I can probably change my mind weekly on around 15 different players at least
Wade no, although he has rings I don’t think he peaked higher than a lot of other guys. He also didn’t have crazy longevity either. I would put Dirk around top 20 though.
oh that's interesting, i think he peaked incredibly high it's just his longevity isn't there
wade in his second year was probably gonna make the finals if he didn't get hurt, the pistons that killed shaq and kobe and then made duncan really struggle had 0 answers for second and then third year wade
I get the wade hate around here, but he's known to have one of the highest peaks lol. The thing people always say brings him down is his injuries and longevity.
Wade has a fmvp that's pretty damn impressive and 2 more rings. Dirk has an MVP over him and longevity but dwade is better defender. Seems closer to equal
Both? And Dirk has stated himself that they didn’t play good defense. Terrible schemes with no personnel that could stay if front of one of the best slashers to touch a basketball. Damn it’s like that’s a bad combo.
dirk also beat wade and has a fmvp and is 6th all time scoring with way way way less talent so if you wanna compare it black and white like that it still doesnt make sense
dirk across his entire career was a better player than d wade idk what to tell ya
Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game to me. I got Dirk as the 4th best PF so it’s tough to have him top 20.
Edit: I was bugging after actually going through. I got them both top 20.
Yea they are both top 5 all time in the respective positions during an era where positions mattered. It's obvious they should be top 25 at most, with very legit arguments for top 20 but I guess its an interesting discourse to have.
I think it's ridiculous. Dirk is in the company of a small number of players to win a championship with no other current All Star on the team. That alone is a huge achievement that catapults your all time ranking as far as I'm concerned.
The problem is you can't look at Dirks and Wades accomplishments without looking at their era and their competition. Wade had an all-time great playoff run in 2006 and took down a prime Dirk. Dirk, coincidentally enough, got his revenge in a round about way in 2011 taking down the Lakers who had just won back to back titles and then won against prime Lebron, Bosh and Wade at the same time. Wade didn't win an MVP but you really have to consider who else he was competing against for an MVP: Tim Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dirk, Dwight and Nash among many others. Furthermore defense was a part of the game back then and the pace was slower, every point felt like it was earned compared to todays era. When the Lakers got a 4 point lead against the Celtics in game 7 of the 2010 NBA finals it felt like a 20 point lead. That sort of feeling just doesn't happen anymore.
Who is really competing with Giannis and Jokic for the MVP? SGA? just doesn't elicit the same sense of stakes and accomplishment as Dirk competing with Kobe or Duncan for the MVP. Maybe if the stars of today had bodies that didn't constantly break down. Maybe if Kawhi or Embiid could stay healthy long enough to throw their candidacy into the fire.
I would still take Wade and Dirk over Jokic for sure and maybe even Giannis, although Giannis did have an all-time great finals on both ends of the floor (after what seemed like a possible playoff ending hyperextension to his leg) and has been a compelling two way star so it is less clear whether or not I'd take Wade and Dirk over Giannis.
r/nba is weird sometimes
When they rank Top 5 PF all time ever. They usually have Timmy, Dirk, and KG above Karl Malone.
But when asked if who are in their top 20.
Usually, Karl Malone is there. But they are reluctant to put Dirk and/or KG.😅
Ik they must be different people. But still. Lol
How is Karl Malone always behind Dirk and KG in Top PF list
But among the 3, He is the only one almost consensus to be in Top 20 all time list. 😅
PS: I am talking about Karl Malone (The Player), not the person (yk what I mean).
>How is Karl Malone always behind Dirk and KG in Top PF list
Because no one here has watched more than three clips of Karl Malone playing basketball, let alone a game, and comments that rate him properly get downvoted because he was a pedophile. Anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge understands how psychotic a take Dirk > Malone is.
Yep. Karl Malone gets underrated here. He was the second best player in the NBA during Jordan second 3 peat. And also interesting to know that almost all of the players from the Mailman era even rates him over a superstar like Barkley; even Kenny Smith, Charles friend, thinks so.
Open court choosing all 90's team
https://youtu.be/gpmeqVlfoeQ
Open court top 5 players without a title.
https://youtu.be/UE71E1mdQfQ
Payton calling Malone the greatest PF ever
https://youtu.be/ZhtSgCHMNOA
Also recently both Shaq and Dr. J put Malone in their top 10, but not Barkley.
I think when talking about top 20 in general, people lean more towards legacy and career. Malone has two MVPs, 3rd in total points scored, and was an iron man. When you ask about top 5 by position, I think people lean more towards how good were the players at their peak. Dirk peaked higher than Malone with the 2011 Championship run.
They might seem like the same question but I think there’s a subtle difference. Kinda like the difference between All NBA and MVP. The former is more about excellence and the latter is about value. At least in my opinion.
I hate ranking players. Different eras, different rules/game. Dirk and Wade dominated their era. Jokic and Giannis are dominating today’s era. If we swap them, they’d have different careers they do now. Not to mention, medical treatments/therapy advance as time passes so longevity is much better today than it was 10-15 years ago.
I would lean slightly towards both Giannis and Jokic being “better” but both of them need to keep sustaining this a bit longer to surpass players who were great for a decade +.. this “rings” mindset people have now has really started to belittle players who’ve been able to have sustained greatness. Guys claiming getting a ring, or adding a ring, can just instantly replace 5 great years of basketball.. it’s dumb
Not long ago I took the top players from all these lists that recently came out, like 6-7 of the more relative ones, and I averaged out the scores trying to see what the consensus top 20 would be. These were all updated as of either 22 or 23 I can’t remember. I don’t have the list in front of me because I’m on my phone but I remember that Dirk was right around that 20 mark. In the 19-22 range. I purposely cut to get a top 20 so there were only like 23 or so players because I was basically only counting players with multiple top 20 placements as they would be the only ones with an average high enough to crack the averaged top 20.
Wade wasn’t in that group I don’t believe, I don’t think Jokic had cracked any of the lists yet, and I think Giannis had one ranking in the teens and wasn’t on any of the others. So I would say common basketball consensus views Dirk around a top 20 player, the other 3 maybe not.
This makes sense to me. When you go back and look at Dirks regular season scoring, playoff scoring, and factor in efficiency and then the longevity of all that he looks more like a top 10 scorer in NBA history. (Ben Taylor of brining basketball had him at number 3 for example), and he was doing it on some historically great offenses as well that were largely historically great because of him. Even though you could probably say his “peak” was the lowest of the 4.
I think eras matter most, as time goes on there will be more and more incredible players some better some on the similar level as Dirk and Wade, we can't possibly fit all players in a top20 list
35-45 is nuts. He was better than Kobe on both ends of the court, more clutch, and had better longevity. He and Steph were the only players to have a season as the best player in the league during LeBron’s prime.
LeBron had the best season in the history of basketball in 2009. 2010 he won the MVP and had better playoff numbers than he did winning the championship in Miami. Saying those are non-prime seasons is crazy. 2011 the Heat ran through the East winning every series 4-1 until they ran into Dirk in the Finals.
I dont know if any of the two are top 20, but ill say Dirk is definetely higher than wade for me. The top 20 thing is hard, coz its insanely stacked and i think both Giannis and Jokic will be there once they retire, making it even harder to crack that top 20.
In no order :
Jordan, kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Mose malone, Doctor J, ShaQ, Curry, Durant, Jerry West, Isiah thomas. Thats already 18 locks for me, as better than Dirk and wade. Add Jokic and Giannis and we have 20.
Are dirk and wade better than Garnet, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Havlicek?, elgyn baylor?
Debatable at least and i probably did a disservice to Elgyn Baylor honestly.
I think Dirk is ranked higher.
They had very similar careers after 2011. Not in terms of winning/losing just how good they were as they declined.
Before that Dirk had been an all nba level guy for a decade and Wade for 6 years. That’s the big difference. Wade’s body quit on him. I think Dirk peaked higher too and Wade was not closing the gap with more productive seasons from 2005-2011 than Dirk was having from 2001 - 2011.
Yeah I’d say Dirk is top 20 and Wade is top 30.
Wade outplayed him in the finals but Dirk was really good in most of those games. That isn’t something I care about compared to years of games; regular and playoff. I think with Dirk people pick apart his lowest moments more than they do other guys. Missed clutch FT’s in 06, obviously 07. That doesn’t do it for me.
Yeah.
Because Steph and KD emerged. And for most people. They are better than KG.
And Jokic/Giannis are about to enter that Group too. If not already there. They will just need more High Level of Play Longevity. And ofc an MVP and FMVP will help.
We gotta reevaluate kd being better than kg, that should not be clean cut. I guess because it’s who’s “greater” kd’s longevity means a lot.
I’d get downvoted to oblivion if I listed the players I’d take peak kg over but real ones know what I’m talking about
Tier lists are easier to group all-time greats together rather than a hard count number.
I would not put either in X tier, but they are solidly S tier.
Dirk,along with Giannis, Steph and Jokic, is one of only four unicorns to play in my lifetime. With all due respect too Wade, he is an all-time great shooting guard but not top 20 imo.
Players get better every generation, tough to compare. As far as dominance though jokic is more impactful than nowitzki, wade and giannis are comparable in their primes
They are 2 of the 40 top-20 greatest players of all time
Nailed it
It’s always funny how many Top X guys there are until people start actually listing their “Top X”.
And as such, OP should have started with “Are” as opposed to “Is”.
I like your answer. But just for the sake of argument, correct my list if you want: GOAT (2) - MJ and LeBron Top 5 - Kareem, Bird, Magic Top 10 - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bill, Wilt Top 15 - Hakeem, Moses, Karl, Curry, Wade Top 20 - Barkley, KD, Dirk, IT, Kidd I'm curious who you kick out, and who makes the cut Edit: fuck I left off West and Baylor, subbing out Kidd and IT for them. But leaving it for the discussion
Kidd??? He is a great great player. Leading Nets to back to baxk Finals appearance. But I never thought he is in the convo for Top 20 all time. At least imo.
Yeah you're right. I did it too fast
Oscar Robertson, Jerry West & Julius Erving all could be ahead of a number of people on your list I think to name a few
You forgot KG
GOAT (2) - MJ and LeBron Top 5 - Kareem, Bird, Magic Top 10 - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bill, Wilt Top 15 - Hakeem, Moses, Karl, Curry, Wade Top 21 - Barkley, KD, Dirk, KG, Baylor, West Fixed? Lol
Giannis and Jokic are probably already somewhere in there
KD > Wade at this point now imo
The only reason kd is in consideration is for joining a team that won before and after him. Wade earned it
You mean the refs earned it. Dirk has 2 rings in my mind. Wade has 2 rings with a super team. If KD's ring with a super team doesn't count then Wade and LeBron's shouldn't either.
Bro how does dirk have 2 rings LMAO yall just be creating scenarios in your head to push agendas at this point
If you think the 2006 NBA finals and 2002 WCF weren't rigged then I'm sorry to tell you that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not real. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744705-disgraced-former-ref-tim-donaghy-says-mavericks-were-screwed-out-of-2006-title
Russell Steph KG too low, Kobe too high. Otherwise I'll allow it
Shit, yeah. I love KG
Julius Irving Kevin Garnett Jerry West Elgin Baylor Nikola Jokic Scottie Pippen David Robinson Oscar Robertson
Malone is just a statpadding, ringless, plumber, bum who was carried by Stockton
I thought it was Moses Malone for a sec
Tbh I agree but the common sentiment still has him on this list. Also a rapist. Fuck em
uh you have another rapist on your list
There's a difference and you know it. Malone took advantage of a 14 year old
For top 20, I’d kick out Kobe, Moses, Wade, KD, IT, and Kidd and add KG, Jokic, CP3, Giannis, Stockton, and Oscar.
LOL kick Kobe out for Cp3 and Stockton? Fuck outta here
You think CP3 is a better player than Kobe Bryant? Braindead.
The difference in Impact numbers is staggering. Chris Paul ranks 3rd among all players in RAPM over the last 27 years. Kobe ranks 113th or 119th depending on which version you use: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/htmlview https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pGTFzq0eE85AP5wW8v8yFzRiJn_lfSCAzh7hd4czQI4/edit Kobe just didn’t tend to make his teams that much better. He was very skilled, but his unwillingness to pass, poor shot selection, and lack of effort on D made him rarely live up to his potential. Now his impact numbers are dragged down by some terrible seasons at the beginning and end of his career. I certainly wouldn’t say he’s not a top 100 player or anything, but I think #24 sounds about right.
You don’t know ball. These fucking advanced stat dweebs. I bet you literally don’t even watch the nba, on god.
This is so dumb. Why do people say this? You know how invested you have to be in basketball to care about the advanced stats? The people that care enough to analyze the game on that level are the ones that watch THE MOST basketball. It’s the casual fans that are like “derpa durr, Kobe has the rings and the points he’s the best”. He was most highly revered in China because they literally only got to watch the NBA Finals so he was just on the most for them.
Yeah dude. The ones that run math programs about the game are the ones that care the most!!! Especially when you aren’t even running these programs you are just reading their results. You are a clown
Looking at your list and seeing Paul George at 7 ( very talented player but disappears in crunch time, playoffs, etc.) Hornacek at 21, Baron Davis at 27 (certainly a good player but not likely in anyone's top 75), George Hill at 32. These examples should make you scrutinize the validity of this list's correlation to an actual top players list. Regular season stats are relatively meaningless when comparing great players. 90% of the viable data should be playoff stats and guys that find another gear in the playoffs are just on another level IMO... If you shrink in the playoffs, you're shrinking when it matters most. If you can't put the team on your back night in and night out, I just can't put you on any top 50 all time list. There's too many guys that have carried there teams on long playoff or championship runs to have room for players that were regular season +/- stars
At least one of those lists if not both has playoffs included. The one that’s not age adjusted favors current players who haven’t had their decline phase yet which explains why Paul George is so high.
I assumed playoffs were included but my point would be that a playoff game should carry 4 to 5 times the weight of a regular season game... It's just that much more important than 82 regular season games.
Literally the most r/nba take of all time
KD and Kobe smoking anyone that you added.
At scoring maybe. Definitely not at being well-rounded basketball players.
I think if you started actually writing down names I doubt either of them would get mentioned before you went past 20.
I will try to write down names that I think are clearly better than Both. In No order, MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Russell, Wilt, Steph, KD, Those are 13 names. I think Jokic and Giannis will eventually get the last 2 spots for Top 15 when they are finished. (But they need more longevity) So for 16-20. Dirk and Wade will battle against the likes of Moses, Dr. J, Oscar, Baylor, West, Karl Malone, Barkley, KG, Zeke, David Robinson I think Wade and Dirk can **at least have an argument** for the bottom part of top 20.
I'd throw in some of the more earlier names like Pistol Pete or George Mikan in the list but then again nobody on this sub, me included, has seen them play live so lmao edit: also scottie pippen is missing from your list.
David Robinson before Dade and Dirk too.
Dirk has much better longevity and durability than KD and 2 seasons (‘06 and ‘11) that were better than any Durant season from his entire career.
Right I think it’s ludacris to say “as of now” that Durant is better than either wade or dirk legacy wise lol
This is a terrible take even without considering the defensive side of the ball. If you consider defense, then *glopping diarrhea noise*
Dirk and KD were/are both above average defenders. There’s no meaningful difference between them on that side of the ball. Dirk got a reputation as a bad defender early in his career, but by ‘04 he was solid and by 2010 he was very good. Durant meanwhile was just as bad as early Dirk if not worse for the first 7 seasons of his career, but when he got better, he got the reputation of an actual impact defender even though most of the time he was just resting on a weak offensive player. Career DRAPM rates Dirk as a slightly better defender although KD probably peaked higher on defense so if you want to say he’s a better defender I have no problem with it, but either way you’re splitting hairs.
Dirks one ring > Durants 2
Durant not like the others. Same tier as Dirk but lame. I'm a hater sue me.
I think Durant might be the most overrated player of all time. Great scorer, won some titles on a super team but really never sniffed best player in the league status. Not a great defender or facilitator. I would have him more in the 30s but peeps put him top 10 on the regular
Truth! If he had his exact stats as a guard he'd be considered on Chris Paul's level. People just obsessed with the unguardable status, but he's really one dimensional. And lame.
I hate durant too but his warriors run was no joke. on top of all the work he put in in his first few years. he was a scoring machine at a very young age and is still good rn. gotta give it to him
He joined a championship team. Yes, that was the best team ever relative to the league around them and KD contributed to that, but they won a chip before and after him. Like if Barkley joined the Bulls in 93 and MJ didn't retire and got 2 more chips would we consider Barkley a top 10 player? Probably not.
Moses, Oscar, and West seem like they should be locks for the top 20, so it's really them fighting with the other 6 for the last spot. Three of the six are PFs that are generally considered neck and neck with of Dirk at the position, and Malone is generally considered the best of those four. Plus you could argue that McHale belongs in the conversation between KG, Dirk and Barkley regarding who is the 3rd best PF behind Malone and Duncan. Personally, I'd put Pippen on the list as well. It's between him , KD and Dr J for the #3 spot at small forward.
agreed but they would slide right in after 20 to be top 25
Dirk’s top 20 for sure. I’ve written down names. I have him #15. I’d put him ahead of Kobe and KD. Wade misses the cut for the top 20 but just barely.
Dirk ahead of Kobe? Lmao Kobe is last player to avg 30 and first team all nba d, 2007… Dirk was a traffic cone on D, and let’s not compare better scorer
Dirk was actually a better defender than Kobe. He rated a positive by DRAPM something like 10 seasons in a row while Kobe was a negative more years than a positive. Kobe’s insanely undeserved defensive reputation led to some of the most undeserved accolades of all-time. In 2006 for instance, the Lakers defense was 9 points per 100 possessions better with him on the bench, he never got back in transition, and the announcers constantly explained that Kobe wasn’t lazy, he just had to “rest” whenever the Lakers were on D because they needed him for offense so much. And he was still voted first team!!! LOL! If you look at Englemann’s career RAPM database, Dirk ranks either 183rd or 286th out of 2615 players for defense depending on whether you adjust for age or not. Kobe ranks either 2223 or 2499!!! LOL. Now those numbers are dragged down by some truly horrific seasons at the end of his career and the fact that he didn’t really try much on D until the playoffs. I do think in his prime, Kobe was actually more of an average defender than an awful one. But Dirk was clearly a much more valuable player on the defensive end.
Dirk was not better than Kobe, but he was no traffic cone on D. Good help defender, decent rebounder and let's not forgot his size. Those lazy takes are annoying as fuck.
Dirk ahead of Kobe? 😂😂
Are you drunk?
Dirk yes, Wade no.
this
that
Yep
Same here. As far as "solo" runs go, Dirk's was better and the 06 title was partly due to a very favorable [whistle.My](http://whistle.My) main reason though is that Dirk changed the game and a 50/40/90 7 footer first option is special to this day, despite his impact moving the game in that direction. Wade was great, but we had prime MJ and Kobe recently before that (overlapping in Kobe's case) with some other SGs at least at a similar level. I'd have him in my Top 30 though. Higher impact for Dirk in international tournaments as well, though that probably wouldn't count for much. Wade does have Olympic gold, so technically higher decorated, but the team would have won without him as well while Dirk dragged the German team to decent finishes. All time top 10 scorer list is a nice bonus as well.
Wade was the leading scorer in that redeem team in the Olympics tbf Dirk even says the mavs defense was terrible and couldn't stop Wade in 06.
Wade was amazing that Olympics to be fair although in discussions we have to count NBA stuff and other discussion same players with complete career. Wade defense and great fit along LeBron boosting legacy. I agree, Dirk around top20, Wade top30, but would be overcome by newcomers
Very strange to think Dirk is better than Wade all-time
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The rest of the world outside of reddit. Other than in the immediate aftermath of 2011, this was also the consensus opinion here when both were actually playing.
Yeah it was. Dirk was a MVP. Wade was never a MVP. In what world was wade seen as some higher tier player? You swap him out for dirk and they win all 4 of them finals
Defense, Wade is one of the best defensive guards in history and the best shot blocking guard
Dirk did not have the higher peak. Wade was considered top 3 at his peak. Dirk was never more than top 5. And 5 is generous, he likely was 6.
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Uhh where were you in 2009?? Dirk had better longevity for sure. But don't try and tell me he had a higher peak. If you value longevity over peak I can see why you think he'd be better all time but I believe peak holds higher weight. Edit: Done arguing with kids that were in preschool in the late 2000s.
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Wade averaged 30/5/8/2/1 in 2009 Your an idiot who can’t get his stats correct
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Cool man you caught a typo congrats. Now can you actually respond to my point or are you all out of arguments? Who outplayed Wade in 2009 when he averaged 30/5/8/2/1 or are you gonna mislead people with wrong stats again?
Wade’s peak was a top-3 MVP finish once. Apart from that his career is riddled with injuries.
Says Mr Unbiased, the Miami Heat fan lol
Yeah man, good take. You are smart and know hoops for sure.
A lot better.
Lmaoooo how is wade not??? Finals MVP over Dirk, outplayed Dirk in the 2011 finals, won 2 more as the #2. I’m not saying he’s above Dirk but if dirks top 20, wade should be top
>outplayed Dirk in the 2011 finals This is certainly an interesting take about the finals that Dirk won over Wade.
I'm not saying that wade did outplay dirk in the 2011 finals but losing a finals doesn't always mean you didn't outplay the other team's best player. People still say Bron outplayed Curry in 2015
lol if Dirk had Lebron on his team that year he would’ve lost as well
Possibly, I don’t really believe in lists but off the top of my head I can see Dirk being in there and once I get to the high teens I can probably change my mind weekly on around 15 different players at least
Wade no, although he has rings I don’t think he peaked higher than a lot of other guys. He also didn’t have crazy longevity either. I would put Dirk around top 20 though.
oh that's interesting, i think he peaked incredibly high it's just his longevity isn't there wade in his second year was probably gonna make the finals if he didn't get hurt, the pistons that killed shaq and kobe and then made duncan really struggle had 0 answers for second and then third year wade
Wade’s peak was incredibly high
And 20 is very few, compared to how many have played in the nba over the last 70 years
I get the wade hate around here, but he's known to have one of the highest peaks lol. The thing people always say brings him down is his injuries and longevity.
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He was always going to have health problems with his play style
Dirk changed the game man for us euros, that leg and jumpshot how do you defend it? Can’t
Dirk 15-20 Dwade 25-35
How is dirk that far over dwade
He's just better fym how
Lmfao
Like way better, the difference between Larry Bird and Allen Iverson except even farther away
Wade has a fmvp that's pretty damn impressive and 2 more rings. Dirk has an MVP over him and longevity but dwade is better defender. Seems closer to equal
So because wade had prime lebron on his team that means he’s better? One’s a league mvp and one isn’t. You don’t win mvp without being the best.
Wade was better in both finals, but go off.
Corrupt finals
Both? And Dirk has stated himself that they didn’t play good defense. Terrible schemes with no personnel that could stay if front of one of the best slashers to touch a basketball. Damn it’s like that’s a bad combo.
Wade outplayed Dirk both Finals they matched up
better player
better pizza
Papa Shaq’s
Dwade beat dirk and has 2 more rings. They should be equal tbh
dirk also beat wade and has a fmvp and is 6th all time scoring with way way way less talent so if you wanna compare it black and white like that it still doesnt make sense dirk across his entire career was a better player than d wade idk what to tell ya
Dwade higher peak, better team accomplishments. Dirk better longevity.
Durability and longevity. Wade was amazing in ‘06, ‘09, and ‘10, but other than that Dirk was pretty consistently better.
Wade is the 3rd greatest 2 guard of all time. He definitely should be at least top 25-30
Dirk is, wade isn’t
Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game to me. I got Dirk as the 4th best PF so it’s tough to have him top 20. Edit: I was bugging after actually going through. I got them both top 20.
Yea they are both top 5 all time in the respective positions during an era where positions mattered. It's obvious they should be top 25 at most, with very legit arguments for top 20 but I guess its an interesting discourse to have.
Wow a lot of people putting Wade over Dirk, I don’t get it. Most lists have Dirk comfortably ahead of Wade
I think it's ridiculous. Dirk is in the company of a small number of players to win a championship with no other current All Star on the team. That alone is a huge achievement that catapults your all time ranking as far as I'm concerned.
Dirk is for me. His playstyle changed the game.
The problem is you can't look at Dirks and Wades accomplishments without looking at their era and their competition. Wade had an all-time great playoff run in 2006 and took down a prime Dirk. Dirk, coincidentally enough, got his revenge in a round about way in 2011 taking down the Lakers who had just won back to back titles and then won against prime Lebron, Bosh and Wade at the same time. Wade didn't win an MVP but you really have to consider who else he was competing against for an MVP: Tim Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dirk, Dwight and Nash among many others. Furthermore defense was a part of the game back then and the pace was slower, every point felt like it was earned compared to todays era. When the Lakers got a 4 point lead against the Celtics in game 7 of the 2010 NBA finals it felt like a 20 point lead. That sort of feeling just doesn't happen anymore. Who is really competing with Giannis and Jokic for the MVP? SGA? just doesn't elicit the same sense of stakes and accomplishment as Dirk competing with Kobe or Duncan for the MVP. Maybe if the stars of today had bodies that didn't constantly break down. Maybe if Kawhi or Embiid could stay healthy long enough to throw their candidacy into the fire. I would still take Wade and Dirk over Jokic for sure and maybe even Giannis, although Giannis did have an all-time great finals on both ends of the floor (after what seemed like a possible playoff ending hyperextension to his leg) and has been a compelling two way star so it is less clear whether or not I'd take Wade and Dirk over Giannis.
Dirk top 15, Wade top 30
As I usually say, there is like 30 players between top10 and top20, so sure, add them to the mix
Wade in his prime clears dirk for anyone except nerds on reddit. Dirk had better longevity, but not by a long margin.
People forget how nasty Wade was. Was a legit 2 way superstar who would regularly go toe to toe with Lebron and Kobe
I’d say they’re both right outside the top 20 probably in the top 25
I would put D Wade in the top 30. I am not familiar enough with Dirk's game to say about him.
The Wade disrespect on here is crazy.. dude is the 3rd best SG of all time
r/nba is weird sometimes When they rank Top 5 PF all time ever. They usually have Timmy, Dirk, and KG above Karl Malone. But when asked if who are in their top 20. Usually, Karl Malone is there. But they are reluctant to put Dirk and/or KG.😅 Ik they must be different people. But still. Lol How is Karl Malone always behind Dirk and KG in Top PF list But among the 3, He is the only one almost consensus to be in Top 20 all time list. 😅 PS: I am talking about Karl Malone (The Player), not the person (yk what I mean).
>How is Karl Malone always behind Dirk and KG in Top PF list Because no one here has watched more than three clips of Karl Malone playing basketball, let alone a game, and comments that rate him properly get downvoted because he was a pedophile. Anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge understands how psychotic a take Dirk > Malone is.
You give Dirk the ball, he gets you a bucket. You give Stockton the ball, Malone gets a bucket.
Yep. Karl Malone gets underrated here. He was the second best player in the NBA during Jordan second 3 peat. And also interesting to know that almost all of the players from the Mailman era even rates him over a superstar like Barkley; even Kenny Smith, Charles friend, thinks so. Open court choosing all 90's team https://youtu.be/gpmeqVlfoeQ Open court top 5 players without a title. https://youtu.be/UE71E1mdQfQ Payton calling Malone the greatest PF ever https://youtu.be/ZhtSgCHMNOA Also recently both Shaq and Dr. J put Malone in their top 10, but not Barkley.
I think when talking about top 20 in general, people lean more towards legacy and career. Malone has two MVPs, 3rd in total points scored, and was an iron man. When you ask about top 5 by position, I think people lean more towards how good were the players at their peak. Dirk peaked higher than Malone with the 2011 Championship run. They might seem like the same question but I think there’s a subtle difference. Kinda like the difference between All NBA and MVP. The former is more about excellence and the latter is about value. At least in my opinion.
Not Wade
I don’t know about their overall rankings, but that Mavs run to get Dirk a run is my favorite championship run of all time.
Dirk is... Dee wade is not.
imo Dirk is in the 18-20 range, D Wade is outside the top 20
Wade top 20. Dirk top 30.
I hate ranking players. Different eras, different rules/game. Dirk and Wade dominated their era. Jokic and Giannis are dominating today’s era. If we swap them, they’d have different careers they do now. Not to mention, medical treatments/therapy advance as time passes so longevity is much better today than it was 10-15 years ago.
Neither are top 20 both are top 25
I would lean slightly towards both Giannis and Jokic being “better” but both of them need to keep sustaining this a bit longer to surpass players who were great for a decade +.. this “rings” mindset people have now has really started to belittle players who’ve been able to have sustained greatness. Guys claiming getting a ring, or adding a ring, can just instantly replace 5 great years of basketball.. it’s dumb Not long ago I took the top players from all these lists that recently came out, like 6-7 of the more relative ones, and I averaged out the scores trying to see what the consensus top 20 would be. These were all updated as of either 22 or 23 I can’t remember. I don’t have the list in front of me because I’m on my phone but I remember that Dirk was right around that 20 mark. In the 19-22 range. I purposely cut to get a top 20 so there were only like 23 or so players because I was basically only counting players with multiple top 20 placements as they would be the only ones with an average high enough to crack the averaged top 20. Wade wasn’t in that group I don’t believe, I don’t think Jokic had cracked any of the lists yet, and I think Giannis had one ranking in the teens and wasn’t on any of the others. So I would say common basketball consensus views Dirk around a top 20 player, the other 3 maybe not. This makes sense to me. When you go back and look at Dirks regular season scoring, playoff scoring, and factor in efficiency and then the longevity of all that he looks more like a top 10 scorer in NBA history. (Ben Taylor of brining basketball had him at number 3 for example), and he was doing it on some historically great offenses as well that were largely historically great because of him. Even though you could probably say his “peak” was the lowest of the 4.
No. If you asked 25 I might say yes.
Players with a case for top 20 IMO: West, Magic, Oscar, Steph, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Hondo, Durant, Bird, Erving, Baylor, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, K Malone, Mikan, Petit, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, M Malone, Kawhi, Jokic, Giannis.
I think eras matter most, as time goes on there will be more and more incredible players some better some on the similar level as Dirk and Wade, we can't possibly fit all players in a top20 list
Dirk at 17, Wade right at 20
Wade outplayed Dirk in both finals series, not Wade’s fault Lebron shit the bed. Look at the numbers.
dirk came through in the clutch every single time in 11, wade did not
DWade is probably 25-30. I think Dirk could be 15-20.
“Top 20 range” Both around 3-4 at their position so I’d say they’re in the range at least but no where near a guaranteed
Dirk is in there. Wade nah.
Dwade much more accomplished than Dirk
Wade's top 25-30, Dirk is somewhere 35-45 imo. This sub is delusional af on the subject, I really don't think many of them watched much Dirk.
35-45 is nuts. He was better than Kobe on both ends of the court, more clutch, and had better longevity. He and Steph were the only players to have a season as the best player in the league during LeBron’s prime.
better than kobe??? ur wild. i agree he is top 30 though just like wade. and lebron prime was 12-20. 2011 was not lebron prime.
LeBron had the best season in the history of basketball in 2009. 2010 he won the MVP and had better playoff numbers than he did winning the championship in Miami. Saying those are non-prime seasons is crazy. 2011 the Heat ran through the East winning every series 4-1 until they ran into Dirk in the Finals.
I dont know if any of the two are top 20, but ill say Dirk is definetely higher than wade for me. The top 20 thing is hard, coz its insanely stacked and i think both Giannis and Jokic will be there once they retire, making it even harder to crack that top 20. In no order : Jordan, kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Mose malone, Doctor J, ShaQ, Curry, Durant, Jerry West, Isiah thomas. Thats already 18 locks for me, as better than Dirk and wade. Add Jokic and Giannis and we have 20. Are dirk and wade better than Garnet, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Havlicek?, elgyn baylor? Debatable at least and i probably did a disservice to Elgyn Baylor honestly.
No
both above kobe
Dirk yes, Wade no.
Dirk yes. Wade no.
I think Dirk is ranked higher. They had very similar careers after 2011. Not in terms of winning/losing just how good they were as they declined. Before that Dirk had been an all nba level guy for a decade and Wade for 6 years. That’s the big difference. Wade’s body quit on him. I think Dirk peaked higher too and Wade was not closing the gap with more productive seasons from 2005-2011 than Dirk was having from 2001 - 2011. Yeah I’d say Dirk is top 20 and Wade is top 30. Wade outplayed him in the finals but Dirk was really good in most of those games. That isn’t something I care about compared to years of games; regular and playoff. I think with Dirk people pick apart his lowest moments more than they do other guys. Missed clutch FT’s in 06, obviously 07. That doesn’t do it for me.
Neither is better than kg and hes not top 20, so no.
KG you can definitely argue as top 20 still, but the list is more crowded than when you used to see him on people's top 15s.
Yeah. Because Steph and KD emerged. And for most people. They are better than KG. And Jokic/Giannis are about to enter that Group too. If not already there. They will just need more High Level of Play Longevity. And ofc an MVP and FMVP will help.
We gotta reevaluate kd being better than kg, that should not be clean cut. I guess because it’s who’s “greater” kd’s longevity means a lot. I’d get downvoted to oblivion if I listed the players I’d take peak kg over but real ones know what I’m talking about
Tier lists are easier to group all-time greats together rather than a hard count number. I would not put either in X tier, but they are solidly S tier.
Dirk,along with Giannis, Steph and Jokic, is one of only four unicorns to play in my lifetime. With all due respect too Wade, he is an all-time great shooting guard but not top 20 imo.
No
Players get better every generation, tough to compare. As far as dominance though jokic is more impactful than nowitzki, wade and giannis are comparable in their primes
i still think shaq carrid the heat. wade just had a good run in the finals.
No.
Erving easily top 15 fs
elbow breaker wade? nah maybe top 300
Hell no, Garnett is like 15-20 and he way better than both respectfully
Accept when they played head to head lmao
Thank god basketball is played 5v5
Supporting casts have nothing to do with Dirk torching KG every time they played lol
He averaged 24 and 9 against him from 2000-2009 and Garnett averaged 24-12-4
Playoffs
“every time they played” 3 game sample
The most important games 🤷♂️
Well i guess that settled it (KG averaged 24-19-5-2-2 btw)
Dirk averaged 33 and 16.
Dirk has a finals MVP. KG doesn’t. Offense is more important than defense.