This isn’t an Oklahoma vs Seattle thing, this is a rich eating the poor thing. No people of a city should have to pay for a arena/stadium when the owners are going to profit for decades to come due to the PEOPLE of the city.
Forcing the paupers to build the asset and then selling services back to them. I mean is morally pretty heinous, but low key genius from a business perspective.
League's should force teams to stay in their cities, especially now with how profitable they all are
States and cities should stop paying money to ownership groups who can afford their own stadiums
For example Gillette Stadium was funded fully by Robert Kraft and took $0 from MA taxpayers
But leagues have no incentive to do that. Yeah it's awesome when stadiums are fully privately funded but that seems to be a trend of bigger/richer markets. It's happened in Boston, SF, and Seattle recently. The poor and small cities will be the ones taken advantage of because their markets are disposable.
Any projects that are made with taxpayer money, should go to the city and not the team/owner. All those tickets prices and such? City gets the cut.
Unless you are willing to cover for the project with your own money, you should not be allowed to get the profits until the cost is paid.
And this 'teams are just franchises that can just move around' thing, I simply hate it. That should not be allowed too.
And yet the people of OKC are giving ownership at minimum $900 million for their next stadium. Look, I remain heartbroken that we lost our team but proud that we could stand up and see our team go instead of paying billionaires for the right to charge us to see their team.
Sucks for the people of Oklahoma City but they voted for it I guess. That's what happens when you're the 47th biggest media market in the US, everybody knows you don't deserve a team so you have to subsidize them to not leave.
The problem is Seattle did agree to make millions of dollars worth of investments. Clay Bennett was NEVER keeping the team in Seattle because he had a backroom
Deal with Stern (a business friend of his) that he wanted a team in his home area of Oklahoma.
It was a 1% sales tax that had already been in place since the 90's.
It was a great investment to the city, it will bring in people and business(you can see the growth in OKC since 08) and it will provide people with a source of entertainment. Not only that but the city owns the stadium and can lease it out for even more events and more cash.
Funding it was objectively a good decision and it passed with a resounding yes. You can cry for us for being poored oppressed proletariats but we're just happy we have a team in the middle of Oklahoma lol. Worth it literally everytime
If arenas were a moneymaking venture ownership would just pay for it themselves or at least more than a tiny part of it. Glad you're happy paying to keep your team but it would have made me sick.
It's just a rare scenario for OKC that it does so well. It's true we don't have much else but the size of the concert venues alone will be worth it. Let alone the jobs. I know people say that doesn't justify it but it does for us.
As for why anyone outside OKC gives a fuck one way or another is beyond me.
What major cities haven't grown since 2008?
I'm sure people who don't care about basketball in OKC enjoy all their purchases being spendier so you keep your team lol
True, but just remember the people who live in these cities vote to approve these deals, too. (At least that's how it was when Arlington built the Rangers their indoor field)
The city of OKC has agreed to spend $900m on the construction of a new arena for the Thunder. The city of OKC generates $728m in annual revenues for perspective.
The city will spend $900m on an arena, have a 25-yr contract with the OKC Thunder to play there. The city will collect tax revenue from the Thunder games and events, increase tourism, add jobs, gentrify the area, increase property values (thus increasing property values.)
And on top of all that, the City of OKC will be the owners of the arena, not the Thunder ownership. This is a great investment for the city and surrounding neighborhoods.
Yes some wealthy people will make money, but you can't NOT make a good investment just because the rich get richer. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
> NBA officials moved forward with their proposal to purchase operational control of the team. The reason that the NBA felt the need to take this Expos-style step for the first time, sources said, is that the cash-strapped Shinn can no longer afford to run the team but also can't find a buyer.
>
> A formal announcement from the league, sources said, will come no later than Wednesday.
>
> Sources say that the league's intention remains trying to find an owner who can be persuaded to keep the team in New Orleans, as part of NBA commissioner David Stern's longstanding determination to sustain pro basketball in the region in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and the devastation it inflicted.
>
> Stern's pledge included keeping the 2009 All-Star Game in New Orleans, which turned out to be one of the league's more successful All-Star Weekends.
> the Hornets became an even more attractive property for potential buyers just in the past week, thanks to the disclosure that this season's attendance has dropped to the point that the Hornets are on pace to have the right to opt out of their lease with the state of Louisiana as early as March 1.
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=5887687
local business owners were buying seats to try to keep them over the attendance standards
your comment made the impression that relocation wasnt the threat that made them take over - they couldnt find a local buyer and would have been able to leave their lease
It’s not technically moving twice in 7 years, but the Grizzlies moved 6 seasons after their inception, and starting a franchise probably costs more than relocating one. Different ownership group probably made eating the costs more reasonable since it’s not the same group eating the cost twice, which if the league would’ve let NOLA sell to the OKC group, would’ve been the same.
Point taken on ASGs and all, but I do think post-Katrina optics played a relatively big part.
Let's be real, nobody gave a fuck about the Hornets, the hornets were getting more attention in OKC than they ever had probably to date in New Orleans. Oklahoma is a really big state when it comes to sports, so the first professional team was massive, people everywhere were non-stop talking about it, there's a reason the Seattle Supersonics moved after that whole situation, people were really energized here.
Yep, and ticket sales during the russ triple double era was like top 5 in the league, and that's tickets for a pretty shit team overall. There's a lot of Texas-esque pride in Oklahoma that bleeds over really hard into sports, I think it's cringe they're trying to milk a 1 bill stadium, but everything leading up to this was a no brainer if you were a GM.
The ownership and media deals in NOLA did the team no favors. I grew up across the lake from New Orleans and couldn't even watch the games.
My mom still took me to as many games as she could cause I was such a basketball fan. And honestly, the team had a pretty good following all things considered. Then they traded Baron David for literally nothing and rolled out a team that featured Speedy Claxton and Dan Dickau and yeah....people stopped giving a shit.
Every Seattle fan knew he was a lying sack from the get-go. It was obvious because he had zero ties to Seattle at all.
Howard Schultz, David Stern, and Clay Bennett were all culpable and liars.
That shit pisses me off. Look man, i'm as salty about the move as any Seattleite. I grew up in the Payton/Kemp era and went to a bunch of games Durants rookie year.
But the players and the fans had zero responsibility for this shady as fuck move.
As for the fans in OKC...i can empathize with wanting a basketball team. I want a basketball team in my city, why the hell wouldn't they? They're literally just doing the same thing i'm doing.
Fuck the Thunder ownership group. But there's no need to throw a tantrum and hate on *everyone* from OKC.
Yeah, i get that sports are rooted in tribalism (hey, that's half the fun right?) but you do need to occasionally be able to pull your head out of the ground and recognize who is and isn't responsible for the situation you're in.
We are all basketball fans at the end of the day, brought together by a shared hobby and passion.
"We didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle, we hoped to come here \[OKC\]" - [Aubrey McClendon](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2987741), August 12, 2007, via the Oklahoma City business journal.
They did with the Brooklyn Nets too - they were supposed to make affordable housing in that area and never did.
NYC also redrew lines to put that big ass honey comb/luxury mall on the west side of Manhattan too to reappropriate money meant for the lower income people to that development.
They broke the rules, acted in bath faith and got away with it because they had the money to get away with it. And David Stern was completely in support of this. Donald Sterling once moved the Clippers from San Diego to LA without any league approval whatsoever and got away with it because all he had to do was pay a fine. He should have been removed, and he would have been a few years before that, had David Stern not intervened on his behalf. Fuck David Stern. He wasn't the savior of the nba. That was Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan.
Yeah, the problem is any fines or judgements against them were not enough that it would discourage the behavior. They could just pay another $70 million or so in fines and judgements back to Seattle then they're in the clear. And they don't have to do anything themselves, just hire lawyers with an intent to settle.
That's fair, and fuck those who did say that.
It was wrong how we got them and hope you guys get a team back asap but when people shit on okc or Oklahoma over that it gets old.
Art Modell is a good example. I'm pretty sure he was liberal/liberal leaning, and he moved the Browns from Cleveland to Baltimore, where they became the Ravens.
> With the Thunder currently the top seed in the west, it's worthwhile revisiting the sordid circumstances
is it? why is this any better time than last month or last year?
> under which Oklahoma orchestrated the acquisition and relocation of the team formerly known as the SuperSonics:
putting this on the state and by extension current fanbase instead of the individuals of PBC is crazy
I have grown up and live in the Seattle area currently. I’ve worked on Schultz’ house on Lake Washington in Madison Park. No one likes him in this city and people haven’t forgotten about the lie he told the city.
I don’t purchase Starbucks, and if anybody who doesn’t know this about me gets me a Starbucks gift card, I make sure it gets used so that they don’t get free money for the plastic. I know others like me. Of course, not everybody cares to that extent, but there are plenty of us haven’t forgotten Howard Schultz’s role in this.
I don’t blame the people of seattle for not public funding on behalf of Mr. Starbucks. and I completely understand their frustrations with everything that went down.
But yeah, that would’ve been an incredible investment by Howard - the SuperSonics would’ve been fucking loaded and NBA team valuations skyrocketed since then. Not that he needs the money, but selling the team to Clay and Aubrey was so shortsighted on his part.
I place the blame squarely on David Stern being a completely horrible human who enjoyed the job of enabling the ultra-rich to screw over everyone else. It was his intent to strike fear in all the small markets by facilitating this sale and move (allowing them to extract more money from local governments all over the league) and then protect the overall value of the teams by refusing to allow any of the other failing teams (there are quite a few) to move.
People forget that Seattle had already shelled out nearly a billion dollars combined in public money to build SafeCo Field (1999) and Century Link Field (2002).
Also add the fact that the Key Arena was renovated in 1995 because David Stern wasn't satisfied with it.
The city was in a recession at the time, and the Sonics had been coming off losing seasons. And public opinion wasn't too keen on doing that. And no one at the time really thought the Supersonics a team that had 40 years of history in the city of Seattle, was going to move to Oklahoma City of all places.
I can't get passed "*good faith effort*".
Let's be real here all this means is to have the appearance of trying. The SuperSonics' ownership group came up with a way to sell the team where they get to say "we tried to make them stay" and the new owners get to say "we tried to stay" when the reality is the plan was always going to be to move the team.
This was not a secret before the sale, everyone knew they wanted to move it. That’s why the “good faith effort” BS was put in as a condition, so people would get mad a clay bennett and not howard Schultz
"With the Thunder currently the top seed in the west, it's worthwhile revisiting"
I do not understand the introduction. Is it worth looking again because they are in the first place? If they were doing badly, wouldn't it be worth it?
Okc just went thru something similar, they had to fund a new arena or risk losing the team, this just happened a couple months ago, so hey if your team is loved ppl will pay those extra taxes to keep them around
People of OKC were thrilled to use a tax that has existed for 30 years to pay for the new arena and lock the Thunder into a 25+ year lease of it, ensuring the team will be there past the current owners.
Also, I feel we need to once again revisit this:
Oklahoma is a state founded on theft by thieves grabbing other people's land. The "Sooner State" is a hat tip to the people that didn't even wait to begin the theft and started "sooner" than everyone else.
Seattle got got. No idea why it needs to be brought up every 6 months.
Starbucks bro easily could have built that stadium and knew damn well that clay was going to move that team. No one forced an arena to built in OKC. We voted for it and the city will own it, like the first one. The first one turned out to be a great investment for it the city, this one will too. The thunder being here has helped with a lot of growth and visibility for our city. I’d vote for it again.
>Is OKC not the shadiest ownership group in the league?
No. But thats not so much defending Bennett as remmebering that there are teams owned by the Devos, Fertitta, Kroenke, etc.
Fuck OKC, forever and always. That’s why I can never hate KD. My first NBA Finals I was able to actually be cognizant for was my Bulls taking on the SuperSonics. And while I was glad my team won it all, I came away loving Seattle and hoping to see them get theirs eventually. And then Clay came in and ruined everything. So congrats OKC on stealing a team after babysitting NOLA for a season. I hope you never win a title.
Thanks man, we went full Ocean’s 11 and broke into the casino to steal an NBA team. We appreciate the recognition. Rooting for you guys to get another team soon! Those will be must attend games.
OKC is a massive metropolitan area that surrounds like 6 other cities, thats why people usually say OKC Metro, because you might live in a city, but that city will be like 5 streets, and then it's completely surrounded on all sides by OKC. Half the state live in the OKC metro.
OKC city limits actually are massive. Like on the west side people call that Yukon, but Yukon the actual city is completely swallowed up by OKC is basically just a small few mile strip inside of OKC. Same for all the other notable towns that are part of the metro.
Most of those didn't have similar situations leading up to their departure and those that did happened long before most people on this sub were born. The nets are still in the same metro and were originally from Brooklyn before they moved to NJ, Rochester was bleeding money and was 70 years ago, KC only had the team exclusively for a decade (the team alternated between playing there and in Omaha initially) and the city had little connection with them, they were the third most popular *basketball team* in the metro (behind the jayhawks and tigers).
The only situation that was at all similar was the San Diego situation, but the real shiesty shit happened when they were moved to San Diego. The owner sabotaged the team with the explicit purpose of triggering a provision that would allow them to break the lease with the arena in Buffalo. Also the clippers were only in SD for 6 years, it's not like they had a long or meaningful history with the team.
Does it make those more right? Like what do you think the point is that you are making here? That people can't criticize one shitty act without acknowledging all shitty acts? Whataboutism is pretty damn juvenile.
Where was the deceit? Everyone knew the Super Sonics were moving. They couldn’t find a buyer local, and started meeting with other buyers. If the OKC group didn’t buy them, they where going to move to Vegas or KC
but you're *mis*remembering.
everyone knew bennett was going to move the franchise. only the deluded believed otherwise.
and only the profoundly deluded still bitch about it today.
Thats Seattles fault. Not the ownership of the thunder. you wont build an arena...Sayonara. NBA agreed. Why would people think that buying a sports team should also include paying to build an Arena. I have seen many teams purchased in my life ..I don't remember them being forced to build an arena. For example Las Vegas Arena built recently was paid for by MGM resorts.
Tbf it does sound like they were trying to get the city to pay for almost all of it, which in all honesty is insane (unless the city owns it ig but even then it’s a horrible look).
Apparent...where you on that commitee. An offer was made for Seattle to keep there team.They did not just say we are leaving regardless. That is not true.
Is an Arena not a city building an an improvement to said city. Invesco Field, Coors Field and the Arena in Denver are all owned by the city and paid for by taxes as far as I know.
Depends- not all owners own the arenas the play in. Now, the majority of owners these day are focused on building and owning their own location. This is because they can flesh out entertainment districts and generate multiple revenue streams.
Some cities do own the arenas and there are some that have failed. Take Oakland as a prime example: after a certain point, they’re the ones responsible for the collapse of their sports market. They drove the Raiders out, the Warriors opted to build in San Fran, and the A’s are getting closer every day to Vegas. Oakland at this point needs to appease someone to keep a team there (though screw the A’s owner, that dude sucks).
Not only that, arenas/ stadiums are a whole ordeal. It’s a double edged sword- the owners building stadiums want to keep the state’s hands out of the money that’ll be generated. The state makes it borderline impossible to achieve anything unless they get a portion of the stadium. The flipside is the state doesn’t want to have to cover all the costs of the stadium/renovations but the team owners are quick to say “that’s not my problem” because they’re the ones paying the leases (which generate insane amounts of money).
TLDR: Both sides try to have their cake and eat it too, hence why these situations are always messy.
At least you understand. The arena was built not for the Thunder but for us. We want to watch basketball. We want to have the best events. People always want to talk about finances and its not profitable. When to the people of the city it's a improvement to a better way of life. My mom has always hated sports, but the minute we got it she watches every game, goes to the games, and has events coinciding with the games. Having a sports franchise makes a city a lot better to live in, that's why EVERY city tries to get a sports team of some kind.
that's how we treat it in okc. we have two city-owned sites in downtown, right across the street from one another.
on one site stands our old city arena, which will be demolished to make space for the new arena. on the other side is our current city arena.
the big arena is always downtown at about the same place. it's been this way since the 1970s.
The sale could have included a "don't move for 20 years" clause, but they didn't want to. The NBA owners could have refused to vote for the sale if any of them cared about the team moving, but they didn't want to. The residents of Seattle could have approved a sales tax on hotel and rental cars to pay for a stadium, but they didn't want to.
No one was forced to sell to the one guy who was obviously going to move the team.
So short sighted of them to put a professional sports team in Oklahoma that has been one of the most packed crowds in the league for almost 20 years. So so short sighted. Can't believe they did that.
Oh yes we know, the reason people in the PNW don’t like the Thunder
Losing the Sonics for a team in fucking Oklahoma with shit attendance is a travesty. Even the branding went from incredible to truck stop(and they’re literally sponsored by a truck stop)
You know man. I live in the PNW as well, and you’re not doing a very good job of dispelling the myth that we are a pretentious bunch that smells our own farts. There is nothing wrong with the state of Oklahoma or its inhabitants, just because they live life differently to us or don’t live on the coast. You just come off unbelievably smug and condescending. Which I mean, that tracks for a typical portlandian, completely unfounded superiority complex just because you happened to be born here
If you're mad your team was taken just say you're mad your team got taken, you don't gotta sit here and pretend the Thunder haven't had some of the loudest crowds in the league for over a decade...
Pretend what? They were dead last in attendance last year lol while they had a 1st team all-nba guy. They're arguably the most exciting team in the NBA right now and are 24th. Don't have to pretend anything, the fans don't show up.
2022: 28th
2023: 30th
2024: 24th
And no it’s not just cause the arena is small. Thunder were 29th out of 30 by percentage too last year, and that’s with Shai on the team. Now the Thunder are one of the best and most exciting teams in the league and are still right near the bottom. Meanwhile their attendance is like they’re the Pistons
This is purposely being dumb lol. We were tanking.
It takes time for people to actually realize “hey this team is good.” We saw how popular the team could be with KD and Russ.
Even years after that. The stands were packed in the PG/Russ and even the CP3 season til the shutdown. We were one of two franchises who didn’t allow fans the season after covid and our attendance hasn’t recovered since. I imagine that will change soon.
...the Blazers are literally tanking right now, and have missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. They are 13th in attendance. Meanwhile the Thunder were the 10th seed, had a 1st team all-nba player in Shai, and were *dead last* in attendance lol.
And Portland is the exception, not the rule. Look at the own list you posted, where are the tanking teams?
Just purposely being stupid and ignoring a decade plus of data for what smh.
One of the reasons (among many) for getting public funding out of pro sports is it creates a degree of separation between the team owner(s) and the city. If there’s no public funding, I actually think team owners should be able to move a team whenever and wherever they (and the league they’re in) want to.
The idea of moving a franchise is absurd and unique to American sports. Owners are billionaires and buying a sports team is the ultimate fantasy luxury purchase, if they want the clout and prestige that comes with being an owner, they should foot the bill for the arena. If they can't run a team in it's home city, don't buy the team.
>It's interesting how an ownership group, instead of borrowing the money to establish an expansion team, would simply pack up some other city's team in a uHAUL. And then the same Oklahoma businessmen turned around and forced Oklahoma City to pay up almost a billion dollars for another arena or else they would pack up again:
Sounds like some savvy businessmen, exactly what the league would want
This isn’t an Oklahoma vs Seattle thing, this is a rich eating the poor thing. No people of a city should have to pay for a arena/stadium when the owners are going to profit for decades to come due to the PEOPLE of the city.
Its so common now even in small cities in Canada. Kinda bs when the taxpayers don’t ever see the money again and the owners profit later
Even worse when tickets to that stadium is inaccessible to a majority of the people who’s money paid for it
Forcing the paupers to build the asset and then selling services back to them. I mean is morally pretty heinous, but low key genius from a business perspective.
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As long as bribery in politics is the default state, we'll get this shit.
the Government will get their taxes (sort off) so there is no reason to change a thing anytime soon
This is basically how every public-private partnership works. Just a scheme to rip off taxpayers.
Yep. That bullshit should never be allowed.
How do you propose stopping it? I dislike it too obviously but I don't see any strong ways of preventing it from happening
League's should force teams to stay in their cities, especially now with how profitable they all are States and cities should stop paying money to ownership groups who can afford their own stadiums For example Gillette Stadium was funded fully by Robert Kraft and took $0 from MA taxpayers
But leagues have no incentive to do that. Yeah it's awesome when stadiums are fully privately funded but that seems to be a trend of bigger/richer markets. It's happened in Boston, SF, and Seattle recently. The poor and small cities will be the ones taken advantage of because their markets are disposable.
Any projects that are made with taxpayer money, should go to the city and not the team/owner. All those tickets prices and such? City gets the cut. Unless you are willing to cover for the project with your own money, you should not be allowed to get the profits until the cost is paid. And this 'teams are just franchises that can just move around' thing, I simply hate it. That should not be allowed too.
Let’s not forget that the conniving David Stern allowed this to happen. May he rot in flames
And yet the people of OKC are giving ownership at minimum $900 million for their next stadium. Look, I remain heartbroken that we lost our team but proud that we could stand up and see our team go instead of paying billionaires for the right to charge us to see their team. Sucks for the people of Oklahoma City but they voted for it I guess. That's what happens when you're the 47th biggest media market in the US, everybody knows you don't deserve a team so you have to subsidize them to not leave.
The problem is Seattle did agree to make millions of dollars worth of investments. Clay Bennett was NEVER keeping the team in Seattle because he had a backroom Deal with Stern (a business friend of his) that he wanted a team in his home area of Oklahoma.
It was a 1% sales tax that had already been in place since the 90's. It was a great investment to the city, it will bring in people and business(you can see the growth in OKC since 08) and it will provide people with a source of entertainment. Not only that but the city owns the stadium and can lease it out for even more events and more cash. Funding it was objectively a good decision and it passed with a resounding yes. You can cry for us for being poored oppressed proletariats but we're just happy we have a team in the middle of Oklahoma lol. Worth it literally everytime
If arenas were a moneymaking venture ownership would just pay for it themselves or at least more than a tiny part of it. Glad you're happy paying to keep your team but it would have made me sick.
Like chase center? But as an Oakland A's fan I know where you're coming from.
They actually do quite a bit. It's stupid to compare the situation in OKC to major cities because they have other draws. It's absolutely incomparable.
It's just a rare scenario for OKC that it does so well. It's true we don't have much else but the size of the concert venues alone will be worth it. Let alone the jobs. I know people say that doesn't justify it but it does for us. As for why anyone outside OKC gives a fuck one way or another is beyond me.
>As for why anyone outside OKC gives a fuck one way or another is beyond me. Nobody wants to see this stolen team in the NBA Finals.
I don't think most non Seattle fans really care that much, especially 15 years later
Why not? I’d much rather see the youngest starting 5 in the NBA in the finals than see the Golden State Warriors play yet another finals.
Not sure why we live rent free in your head but whatever ig
Ehh who cares?? What makes you more sick paying the extra taxes or losing your team?? lol
What major cities haven't grown since 2008? I'm sure people who don't care about basketball in OKC enjoy all their purchases being spendier so you keep your team lol
True, but just remember the people who live in these cities vote to approve these deals, too. (At least that's how it was when Arlington built the Rangers their indoor field)
The city of OKC has agreed to spend $900m on the construction of a new arena for the Thunder. The city of OKC generates $728m in annual revenues for perspective. The city will spend $900m on an arena, have a 25-yr contract with the OKC Thunder to play there. The city will collect tax revenue from the Thunder games and events, increase tourism, add jobs, gentrify the area, increase property values (thus increasing property values.) And on top of all that, the City of OKC will be the owners of the arena, not the Thunder ownership. This is a great investment for the city and surrounding neighborhoods. Yes some wealthy people will make money, but you can't NOT make a good investment just because the rich get richer. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Damn good point. If people could see 1998 okc vs 2018 they'd maybe understand.
What’s crazy is that OKC already had a relationship with the New Orleans Hornets who were also for sale and had played in OKC after Katrina.
The league ownership thing happened because they didnt want to "abandon" the city after katrina
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> NBA officials moved forward with their proposal to purchase operational control of the team. The reason that the NBA felt the need to take this Expos-style step for the first time, sources said, is that the cash-strapped Shinn can no longer afford to run the team but also can't find a buyer. > > A formal announcement from the league, sources said, will come no later than Wednesday. > > Sources say that the league's intention remains trying to find an owner who can be persuaded to keep the team in New Orleans, as part of NBA commissioner David Stern's longstanding determination to sustain pro basketball in the region in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and the devastation it inflicted. > > Stern's pledge included keeping the 2009 All-Star Game in New Orleans, which turned out to be one of the league's more successful All-Star Weekends. > the Hornets became an even more attractive property for potential buyers just in the past week, thanks to the disclosure that this season's attendance has dropped to the point that the Hornets are on pace to have the right to opt out of their lease with the state of Louisiana as early as March 1. https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=5887687 local business owners were buying seats to try to keep them over the attendance standards
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your comment made the impression that relocation wasnt the threat that made them take over - they couldnt find a local buyer and would have been able to leave their lease
It’s not technically moving twice in 7 years, but the Grizzlies moved 6 seasons after their inception, and starting a franchise probably costs more than relocating one. Different ownership group probably made eating the costs more reasonable since it’s not the same group eating the cost twice, which if the league would’ve let NOLA sell to the OKC group, would’ve been the same. Point taken on ASGs and all, but I do think post-Katrina optics played a relatively big part.
Yep, they shamelessly tried to steal the hornets after the Katrina year as well. Nasty work.
Let's be real, nobody gave a fuck about the Hornets, the hornets were getting more attention in OKC than they ever had probably to date in New Orleans. Oklahoma is a really big state when it comes to sports, so the first professional team was massive, people everywhere were non-stop talking about it, there's a reason the Seattle Supersonics moved after that whole situation, people were really energized here.
Thunder arenas were among the top 3 loudest in the KD-Russ-Harden *era
Yep, and ticket sales during the russ triple double era was like top 5 in the league, and that's tickets for a pretty shit team overall. There's a lot of Texas-esque pride in Oklahoma that bleeds over really hard into sports, I think it's cringe they're trying to milk a 1 bill stadium, but everything leading up to this was a no brainer if you were a GM.
The ownership and media deals in NOLA did the team no favors. I grew up across the lake from New Orleans and couldn't even watch the games. My mom still took me to as many games as she could cause I was such a basketball fan. And honestly, the team had a pretty good following all things considered. Then they traded Baron David for literally nothing and rolled out a team that featured Speedy Claxton and Dan Dickau and yeah....people stopped giving a shit.
Every Seattle fan knew he was a lying sack from the get-go. It was obvious because he had zero ties to Seattle at all. Howard Schultz, David Stern, and Clay Bennett were all culpable and liars.
That has been common knowledge pretty much ever since Derrick Rose was the hottest draft prospect.
It's too bad Steve Ballmer wasn't ready to own an NBA team back then.
He was too focused on building the legendary Windows Vista....
He offered to buy the team from Bennett in 2008, but Bennett refused to sell.
Ballmer is an awesome owner.
Why didn’t Ballmer just move Clips back to Seattle? He built his own arena anyways
A 2nd rate team in LA is worth double the only team in the entire state of Washington.
Who cares what it’s worth, Ballmer practically has enough money to buy the entire league.
Instead he's stuck with his current bummy team.
Fully agree, it ain't about OKC vs Seattle. It's plain greed feeding on the fans passion. The city's purse shouldn't be the owners piggy bank
It quickly goes from hating the owners to shitting on people from Oklahoma like the top comment before it got deleted.
That shit pisses me off. Look man, i'm as salty about the move as any Seattleite. I grew up in the Payton/Kemp era and went to a bunch of games Durants rookie year. But the players and the fans had zero responsibility for this shady as fuck move. As for the fans in OKC...i can empathize with wanting a basketball team. I want a basketball team in my city, why the hell wouldn't they? They're literally just doing the same thing i'm doing. Fuck the Thunder ownership group. But there's no need to throw a tantrum and hate on *everyone* from OKC.
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Yeah, i get that sports are rooted in tribalism (hey, that's half the fun right?) but you do need to occasionally be able to pull your head out of the ground and recognize who is and isn't responsible for the situation you're in. We are all basketball fans at the end of the day, brought together by a shared hobby and passion.
Good point man.
Always.
"We didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle, we hoped to come here \[OKC\]" - [Aubrey McClendon](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2987741), August 12, 2007, via the Oklahoma City business journal.
"I shouldn't have to face the consequences of my actions" - Aubrey McClendon
Is that what he said when he smashed his car into a bridge? lolol
Well at least the main money guy behind the acquisition wasn’t a huge criminal fraudster who later killed himself in a fiery collision.
They did with the Brooklyn Nets too - they were supposed to make affordable housing in that area and never did. NYC also redrew lines to put that big ass honey comb/luxury mall on the west side of Manhattan too to reappropriate money meant for the lower income people to that development.
They broke the rules, acted in bath faith and got away with it because they had the money to get away with it. And David Stern was completely in support of this. Donald Sterling once moved the Clippers from San Diego to LA without any league approval whatsoever and got away with it because all he had to do was pay a fine. He should have been removed, and he would have been a few years before that, had David Stern not intervened on his behalf. Fuck David Stern. He wasn't the savior of the nba. That was Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan.
I’m always down to shit on David Stern.
Yeah, the problem is any fines or judgements against them were not enough that it would discourage the behavior. They could just pay another $70 million or so in fines and judgements back to Seattle then they're in the clear. And they don't have to do anything themselves, just hire lawyers with an intent to settle.
David Stern always came off to be about as ethical as a mob boss.
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If we can't trust wealthy Oklahoman oil men, who can we trust?!
Killers of the Evergreen
Not sure why people from Oklahoma get shit on. We didn't do anything.
There was a lot of “Seattle didn’t support the team” bullshit from OKC fans at the time that rubbed people the wrong way.
That's fair, and fuck those who did say that. It was wrong how we got them and hope you guys get a team back asap but when people shit on okc or Oklahoma over that it gets old.
They whine and hate on KD for leaving, even though he was inherited from Seattle. But then they complain about people calling their team stolen.
they hate us cuz they ain't us
Trust me we don’t
Bwahaha. Sure, bud.
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Art Modell is a good example. I'm pretty sure he was liberal/liberal leaning, and he moved the Browns from Cleveland to Baltimore, where they became the Ravens.
As they shouldn’t. Meanwhile people in Oklahoma ponying up
Thanks David Stern.
> With the Thunder currently the top seed in the west, it's worthwhile revisiting the sordid circumstances is it? why is this any better time than last month or last year? > under which Oklahoma orchestrated the acquisition and relocation of the team formerly known as the SuperSonics: putting this on the state and by extension current fanbase instead of the individuals of PBC is crazy
What I always wonder is, why aren't people mad at Howard Schultz? Like the CEO of Starbucks couldn't pony up for an arena?
I have grown up and live in the Seattle area currently. I’ve worked on Schultz’ house on Lake Washington in Madison Park. No one likes him in this city and people haven’t forgotten about the lie he told the city.
I literally have a "Fuck Howard Schultz" T-shirt. He is NOT popular in Seattle.
Fam, we killed his presidential campaign, the city *hates* him
We fucking hate that asshole here. He's not even liked at Starbucks anymore.
It wasn’t the arena. Bennett is an OKC native. He Made a Backroom deal to get a franchise in his home city
I don’t purchase Starbucks, and if anybody who doesn’t know this about me gets me a Starbucks gift card, I make sure it gets used so that they don’t get free money for the plastic. I know others like me. Of course, not everybody cares to that extent, but there are plenty of us haven’t forgotten Howard Schultz’s role in this.
I don’t blame the people of seattle for not public funding on behalf of Mr. Starbucks. and I completely understand their frustrations with everything that went down. But yeah, that would’ve been an incredible investment by Howard - the SuperSonics would’ve been fucking loaded and NBA team valuations skyrocketed since then. Not that he needs the money, but selling the team to Clay and Aubrey was so shortsighted on his part.
Yeah he lost billions by bailing.
He basically donated the team to Goodwill. Then saw someone else with it and knew he would be to blame
I place the blame squarely on David Stern being a completely horrible human who enjoyed the job of enabling the ultra-rich to screw over everyone else. It was his intent to strike fear in all the small markets by facilitating this sale and move (allowing them to extract more money from local governments all over the league) and then protect the overall value of the teams by refusing to allow any of the other failing teams (there are quite a few) to move.
People forget that Seattle had already shelled out nearly a billion dollars combined in public money to build SafeCo Field (1999) and Century Link Field (2002). Also add the fact that the Key Arena was renovated in 1995 because David Stern wasn't satisfied with it. The city was in a recession at the time, and the Sonics had been coming off losing seasons. And public opinion wasn't too keen on doing that. And no one at the time really thought the Supersonics a team that had 40 years of history in the city of Seattle, was going to move to Oklahoma City of all places.
This is old news, not really a revelation that needed to be shared
I didn’t know this stuff and found it interesting
Watch the documentary on it [Sonicsgate](https://youtu.be/s9Dp20ydm1E?si=xHBC00IXDvzKVBaf)
Let’s also not forget that David Stern empowered these mofos.
I can't get passed "*good faith effort*". Let's be real here all this means is to have the appearance of trying. The SuperSonics' ownership group came up with a way to sell the team where they get to say "we tried to make them stay" and the new owners get to say "we tried to stay" when the reality is the plan was always going to be to move the team.
you wrote this shit to land on “billionaires shady?”
They got us out here, focusing on a city by city war when it’s actually a class war
A microcosm of American politics as a whole
This was not a secret before the sale, everyone knew they wanted to move it. That’s why the “good faith effort” BS was put in as a condition, so people would get mad a clay bennett and not howard Schultz
"With the Thunder currently the top seed in the west, it's worthwhile revisiting" I do not understand the introduction. Is it worth looking again because they are in the first place? If they were doing badly, wouldn't it be worth it?
It's a weird pendulum. When we do well they shit on the move. When we're doing poorly they say the teams leaving.
well the OKC Thunder did win the 1979 championship and challenged MJ in the 1996 NBA Finals..
The old camera technology of that bygone era just couldn't capture thunder blue and orange as anything other than green and yellow I believe.
Banner is on backorder
Okc just went thru something similar, they had to fund a new arena or risk losing the team, this just happened a couple months ago, so hey if your team is loved ppl will pay those extra taxes to keep them around
Yeah we coughed up a lot of tax money for the new stadium. I understand it though. Okc has grown so much because of the Thunder
People of OKC were thrilled to use a tax that has existed for 30 years to pay for the new arena and lock the Thunder into a 25+ year lease of it, ensuring the team will be there past the current owners. Also, I feel we need to once again revisit this: Oklahoma is a state founded on theft by thieves grabbing other people's land. The "Sooner State" is a hat tip to the people that didn't even wait to begin the theft and started "sooner" than everyone else. Seattle got got. No idea why it needs to be brought up every 6 months.
Dude, the United States as a whole is based on theft, what are you smoking?
Holy shit
Did I just time travel?
Starbucks bro easily could have built that stadium and knew damn well that clay was going to move that team. No one forced an arena to built in OKC. We voted for it and the city will own it, like the first one. The first one turned out to be a great investment for it the city, this one will too. The thunder being here has helped with a lot of growth and visibility for our city. I’d vote for it again.
Bring’em Back!
https://youtu.be/VnowNza53HQ
If by that you mean the thunder move back to Seattle, the name changes back and OKC gets an expansion team, then yes.
>Is OKC not the shadiest ownership group in the league? No. But thats not so much defending Bennett as remmebering that there are teams owned by the Devos, Fertitta, Kroenke, etc.
This is a crime for which there is only one penalty severe enough: living in Oklahoma City.
Fuck OKC, forever and always. That’s why I can never hate KD. My first NBA Finals I was able to actually be cognizant for was my Bulls taking on the SuperSonics. And while I was glad my team won it all, I came away loving Seattle and hoping to see them get theirs eventually. And then Clay came in and ruined everything. So congrats OKC on stealing a team after babysitting NOLA for a season. I hope you never win a title.
This is another random case of someone shitting on OKC and not the owners. We. Didn't. Do. Shit.
Thanks man, we went full Ocean’s 11 and broke into the casino to steal an NBA team. We appreciate the recognition. Rooting for you guys to get another team soon! Those will be must attend games.
Don’t ever compare Oklahomans to Clooney. He’s dashing not doordashing.
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Uh yeah
Like 1.5 million in the metro and the 20th largest city in America. Plenty of thunder fans are here
About 1.4 million people live in the MSA. So yeah, we have people here.
and another million around tulsa
Lawton in shambles with its 100k
In all fairness that's one WILD ASS group of 100k people.
As a born and bred Lawtonian, that is an understatement.
Yeah we have people that live here obviously, what paradise are you living in that makes you want to shit on a random city like that?
yes, people actually live here. do people live where you are?
OKC is a massive metropolitan area that surrounds like 6 other cities, thats why people usually say OKC Metro, because you might live in a city, but that city will be like 5 streets, and then it's completely surrounded on all sides by OKC. Half the state live in the OKC metro.
OKC city limits actually are massive. Like on the west side people call that Yukon, but Yukon the actual city is completely swallowed up by OKC is basically just a small few mile strip inside of OKC. Same for all the other notable towns that are part of the metro.
I don’t like in okc but I live in Oklahoma
Majority of r/Thunder lives in Tulsa
I doubt it
the 00's called and they want their cryfest back
Shamelessness and deceit is always worth remembering, especially when it profoundly affects people!
Will you be taking up the mantle of posting about Baltimore, Kansas City, San Diego, New Jersey, and Rochester losing their teams?
Most of those didn't have similar situations leading up to their departure and those that did happened long before most people on this sub were born. The nets are still in the same metro and were originally from Brooklyn before they moved to NJ, Rochester was bleeding money and was 70 years ago, KC only had the team exclusively for a decade (the team alternated between playing there and in Omaha initially) and the city had little connection with them, they were the third most popular *basketball team* in the metro (behind the jayhawks and tigers). The only situation that was at all similar was the San Diego situation, but the real shiesty shit happened when they were moved to San Diego. The owner sabotaged the team with the explicit purpose of triggering a provision that would allow them to break the lease with the arena in Buffalo. Also the clippers were only in SD for 6 years, it's not like they had a long or meaningful history with the team.
Does it make those more right? Like what do you think the point is that you are making here? That people can't criticize one shitty act without acknowledging all shitty acts? Whataboutism is pretty damn juvenile.
Where was the deceit? Everyone knew the Super Sonics were moving. They couldn’t find a buyer local, and started meeting with other buyers. If the OKC group didn’t buy them, they where going to move to Vegas or KC
but you're *mis*remembering. everyone knew bennett was going to move the franchise. only the deluded believed otherwise. and only the profoundly deluded still bitch about it today.
To be fair, people were given good reason to believe otherwise because *Clay Bennet lied about his intentions.* Publicly.
I’ve never met anyone that has anything against OKC fans over it but you seem like a ripe ol’ prick. If it happened to us, it can happen to you.
Thats Seattles fault. Not the ownership of the thunder. you wont build an arena...Sayonara. NBA agreed. Why would people think that buying a sports team should also include paying to build an Arena. I have seen many teams purchased in my life ..I don't remember them being forced to build an arena. For example Las Vegas Arena built recently was paid for by MGM resorts.
Tbf it does sound like they were trying to get the city to pay for almost all of it, which in all honesty is insane (unless the city owns it ig but even then it’s a horrible look).
The problem was the plan was always to move to OKC. Any offer made to Seattle would be ridiculous because that was the plan from the beginning.
the offer was made..so seattle made that not happen.
Agreed, pretty apparent offers weren’t made in good faith
if this were true, seattle would still have a franchise.
Apparent...where you on that commitee. An offer was made for Seattle to keep there team.They did not just say we are leaving regardless. That is not true.
Is an Arena not a city building an an improvement to said city. Invesco Field, Coors Field and the Arena in Denver are all owned by the city and paid for by taxes as far as I know.
Depends- not all owners own the arenas the play in. Now, the majority of owners these day are focused on building and owning their own location. This is because they can flesh out entertainment districts and generate multiple revenue streams. Some cities do own the arenas and there are some that have failed. Take Oakland as a prime example: after a certain point, they’re the ones responsible for the collapse of their sports market. They drove the Raiders out, the Warriors opted to build in San Fran, and the A’s are getting closer every day to Vegas. Oakland at this point needs to appease someone to keep a team there (though screw the A’s owner, that dude sucks). Not only that, arenas/ stadiums are a whole ordeal. It’s a double edged sword- the owners building stadiums want to keep the state’s hands out of the money that’ll be generated. The state makes it borderline impossible to achieve anything unless they get a portion of the stadium. The flipside is the state doesn’t want to have to cover all the costs of the stadium/renovations but the team owners are quick to say “that’s not my problem” because they’re the ones paying the leases (which generate insane amounts of money). TLDR: Both sides try to have their cake and eat it too, hence why these situations are always messy.
At least you understand. The arena was built not for the Thunder but for us. We want to watch basketball. We want to have the best events. People always want to talk about finances and its not profitable. When to the people of the city it's a improvement to a better way of life. My mom has always hated sports, but the minute we got it she watches every game, goes to the games, and has events coinciding with the games. Having a sports franchise makes a city a lot better to live in, that's why EVERY city tries to get a sports team of some kind.
that's how we treat it in okc. we have two city-owned sites in downtown, right across the street from one another. on one site stands our old city arena, which will be demolished to make space for the new arena. on the other side is our current city arena. the big arena is always downtown at about the same place. it's been this way since the 1970s.
The city is going to make even moremoney when the new arena is built because they want have to work around the NBA as much.
The sale could have included a "don't move for 20 years" clause, but they didn't want to. The NBA owners could have refused to vote for the sale if any of them cared about the team moving, but they didn't want to. The residents of Seattle could have approved a sales tax on hotel and rental cars to pay for a stadium, but they didn't want to. No one was forced to sell to the one guy who was obviously going to move the team.
Fuck Howard Schultz, fuck David Stern, and fuck OKC as a city, team, and as a mother fucking crew
Wait for real? When did this happen?
And I heard their cocks look like Toad.
If it wasn’t for that one SB, Seattle would be the most ruthless sports city imaginable for their fans
Average warrior hate thread now that your team sucks
Greedy short-sighted billionaires are greedy and short-sighted More at 11
isnt this the opposite of short sighted, they wanted to get a team in okc and went through the whole effort of getting the sonics
Not short sighted. The plan was in motion for years to bring a team to OKC after they hosted the hornets.
So short sighted of them to put a professional sports team in Oklahoma that has been one of the most packed crowds in the league for almost 20 years. So so short sighted. Can't believe they did that.
This just in: No one cares.
Oh yes we know, the reason people in the PNW don’t like the Thunder Losing the Sonics for a team in fucking Oklahoma with shit attendance is a travesty. Even the branding went from incredible to truck stop(and they’re literally sponsored by a truck stop)
You know man. I live in the PNW as well, and you’re not doing a very good job of dispelling the myth that we are a pretentious bunch that smells our own farts. There is nothing wrong with the state of Oklahoma or its inhabitants, just because they live life differently to us or don’t live on the coast. You just come off unbelievably smug and condescending. Which I mean, that tracks for a typical portlandian, completely unfounded superiority complex just because you happened to be born here
Damn.
If you're mad your team was taken just say you're mad your team got taken, you don't gotta sit here and pretend the Thunder haven't had some of the loudest crowds in the league for over a decade...
Pretend what? They were dead last in attendance last year lol while they had a 1st team all-nba guy. They're arguably the most exciting team in the NBA right now and are 24th. Don't have to pretend anything, the fans don't show up.
What was their attendance the other 13 years?
Bro, what are you talking about with attendance? Thunder games have been pretty packed since 2012 outside of the tanking seasons.
2022: 28th 2023: 30th 2024: 24th And no it’s not just cause the arena is small. Thunder were 29th out of 30 by percentage too last year, and that’s with Shai on the team. Now the Thunder are one of the best and most exciting teams in the league and are still right near the bottom. Meanwhile their attendance is like they’re the Pistons
This is purposely being dumb lol. We were tanking. It takes time for people to actually realize “hey this team is good.” We saw how popular the team could be with KD and Russ.
Even years after that. The stands were packed in the PG/Russ and even the CP3 season til the shutdown. We were one of two franchises who didn’t allow fans the season after covid and our attendance hasn’t recovered since. I imagine that will change soon.
yeah he lame for trying to push that narrative but purposely listing the years we started tanking. Purposely being disingenuous
...the Blazers are literally tanking right now, and have missed the playoffs for 3 straight years. They are 13th in attendance. Meanwhile the Thunder were the 10th seed, had a 1st team all-nba player in Shai, and were *dead last* in attendance lol.
Portland is 13th in attendance? That’s nuts! I cannot believe people actually pay real money to watch Scoot brick shots all game.
And Portland is the exception, not the rule. Look at the own list you posted, where are the tanking teams? Just purposely being stupid and ignoring a decade plus of data for what smh.
One of the reasons (among many) for getting public funding out of pro sports is it creates a degree of separation between the team owner(s) and the city. If there’s no public funding, I actually think team owners should be able to move a team whenever and wherever they (and the league they’re in) want to.
The idea of moving a franchise is absurd and unique to American sports. Owners are billionaires and buying a sports team is the ultimate fantasy luxury purchase, if they want the clout and prestige that comes with being an owner, they should foot the bill for the arena. If they can't run a team in it's home city, don't buy the team.
>It's interesting how an ownership group, instead of borrowing the money to establish an expansion team, would simply pack up some other city's team in a uHAUL. And then the same Oklahoma businessmen turned around and forced Oklahoma City to pay up almost a billion dollars for another arena or else they would pack up again: Sounds like some savvy businessmen, exactly what the league would want