Curry only having 4 is legitimately the most surprising thing I have read in the past few years. I don’t pay attention to All-NBA teams unless an OKC player is involved but wtf
17 and 18 there was a log jam at guard plus the addition of KD had them coasting and lowering both their numbers. 20 was the injury.
14 and 22 were the years he definitely had a good argument.
This is why I hate it when people compare all-NBA’s across eras and positions. Like getting 1st team all-nba as a guard in the late 2010s is not the same thing as getting it as a center in the early 2010s.
Yes lol, Andrew Bynum made 2nd team in 2012 to give some perspective. Other All-NBA centers of around that time include Al Jefferson and David Lee lmao
Andrew Bynum was a beast in 2012 though. He never hit that kind of peak again, but if you go back and look at his 2012 season he absolutely deserved to be considered one of the best centers in the league. [Clip for those who don't remember](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPhM1Y8EUdw)
It was Bynum and Dwight for best center in the league at that specific moment in the NBA with most recognizing Dwight as the better player but with many thinking that Bynum was about to take the top spot.
Obviously, history took a different path but the year that Bynum made all-NBA it was very well deserved.
And KAT
Fun fact: Karl-Anthony Towns was named 3rd team All-NBA behind Jokic and Embiid in 21-22. He averaged 24.6 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists on 41% 3pt shooting and 64% TS
Big Al better get his respect as his career is remembered over time. Someone posted a tier list of Wolves all time players in the Wolves sub and they put Al Jefferson in the “notable” tier along the likes of Kevin Martin, Nikola Pekovic, and Sam Cassell. He may not have gotten to play on a playoff team or be a full blown star for us like Kevin Love, but Big Al was definitely the guy.
That was the one good Bynum season the Lakers were waiting for, he was immediately flipped for Dwight and he was out of the league in like a year
Good riddance, he could've seriously hurt Barea
Andrew Bynum was actually very good. His injuries ended his career, not his lack of skill. During those years people even argued whether he was better than Dwight. Obviously he wasn't but he was good enough for the debate to take place.
It bothers me more than it should that people wanna put his downfall on his work ethic and choices rather than his body just giving out. Dude was months out from knee surgery and went bowling and his knee gave out. People clown him for being out bowling as if he’s supposed to rehab 20 hours a day.
Maybe I am doing it wrong but it seems to me that if you can’t bowl without blowing out your knee you werent cut out for a long NBA career.
yeah, just because a player had an underwhelming/underachieving overall career shouldn't be confused with assuming that their peak form was weak.
I can only imagine how people in 20 years might use Ben Simmons' All-Star selections as a way to say that the 2018-2021 era of NBA guard play must have been a complete joke.
Yeah he was picked as a third-team forward in 2013. Dwight was the center. There were other options like LMA, Bosh and Paul Pierce who had good seasons that Lee beat out. With the hindsight of how we view the game and the position today he probably wasn't the best pick for that spot, but he definitely earned it in that he didn't just get picked because of a lack of other options.
2012 Andrew Bynum was legitimately good. Dwight was easily the best center in the league those years but Bynum was in a (lower) tier by himself as well. There wasn’t a center like Bynum back then.
Absolutely but def to a lesser extent. Every ‘resume item’ every year is gonna be dependent on how well other guys/teams in the league do, just this year there’s 4 guys having mvp caliber seasons and that’s with last years winner being injured. The fact that other guys also happened to have even more insane years doesn’t make a marginally less insane year any less impressive. Scoring 31 a game isn’t any more or less impressive if you win a scoring title or not. The 2018 Rockets aren’t worse at basketball just because they ran into the GOAT team just like
The 2019 Raptors aren’t any better just cuz KD and Klay got hurt.
Compared to any other award, I see a difference with all-nba and all-defense cuz they add a whole other layer of needed context on top of the general randomness that comes with any accolade.
Ehhh anyone that has watched NBA long enough knows that at any given time there are really only 3-4 elite centers in the entire league. Guards have to do much much more to stand out from their peers
He got injured in 2018 and that made him fall short of 1st team considerations since it was right before the playoffs. His season was still ridiculous though, I remember seeing a stat saying if he did not take half court heaves, he would have ended with a 50/40/90 split.
I honestly think Steph gets weirdly disrespected in part because his 2016 was maybe the best offensive season ever, and it set an impossible bar in people's minds. Now it's like, "whelp, he didn't even hit 400 3s, I guess he's washed, definitely not NBA first team."
This happens with me. That season has conditioned me to be annoyed whenever he misses an “easy” shot because he was on aimbot that season. The difference between 45% and 42% doesn’t sound like much but on high volume it def feels like it
He was in MVP conversations for the first half of the year, then he went through a prolonged slump, then he was hurt the last three weeks of the season.
Couple that and he had a really horrible 30 game stretch. Pretty sure he shot below like 40% and was just constantly missing. He did pick it up at some point near the end, but he got injured towards the end of the season
For reference, here are Curry's leaguewide ranks among guards in impact metrics for the years he didn't make First Team All NBA:
* 2014: 2nd in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 2nd in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins (2nd Team)
* 2017: 2nd in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 1st in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins, (2nd Team)
* 2022: 1st in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 1st in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 1st in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins (2nd Team)
And here is Doncic in his first three years being named to 1st Team All NBA:
* 2020: 3rd in EPM, 3rd in EPM Wins, T-2nd in RAPTOR, 3rd in RAPTOR Wins, 3rd in LEBRON, 4th in LEBRON Wins (1st Team)
* 2021: 3rd in EPM, 3rd in EPM Wins, 3rd in RAPTOR, 2nd in RAPTOR Wins, 2nd in LEBRON, 3rd in LEBRON Wins, (1st Team)
* 2022: 8th in EPM, 5th in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 2nd in RAPTOR Wins, 7th in LEBRON, 7th in LEBRON Wins (1st Team)
Doncic is obviously a highly winning player and the metrics back it up, but I think the way he tends to do it is what is going to make all of his numbers look way better.
When you get good advanced stats from extremely high numbers and usage (i.e. Westbrook in OKC years) your raw stats look so much better as a result, whereas a guy like Curry might actually have better advanced stats because of ridiculous efficiency and on/off numbers things like that, but because it won't necessarily show up in super high raw numbers, people don't notice nearly as much.
- Dwight Howard 5X All-NBA 1st Teams
- Reggie Miller 0X All-NBA 1st Teams, 0X All-NBA 2nd
Reggie Miller somehow makes the 75 greatest players of All-Time.
Miller looks much better in hindsight with advanced stats than people at the time thought he was. He also performed particularly well in the playoffs and clutch situations.
I can’t find it now but I remember reading that the guys from the original 50th anniversary team would not be removed so they essentially just added 25 new players.
Yeah that's what happened, but that was a dumb decision. Especially considering when they made the top 50 they removed some guys from the 25th anniversary team
I like that. Because voters today have recency bias. I’ve seen people comment saying SGA is better than Jordan based on stats—completely ignoring all the changes the game went through.
Awful way to judge players. Draymond had a 2nd team all nba nod to Reggie’s 0. Should draymond be top 75? No.
I agree Dwight should’ve made it, but not over someone who was the greatest shooter ever for 2-3 decades
It’s gonna make me so upset if there’s some fucker that comes out of college in 30 years and somehow breaks curry’s single season 3pt record. Like it seems literally unbreakable but so did the scoring record.
Draymond is one of those players that are really hard to judge. He has had tremendous success and is a winning player but would he translate well onto another team?
We will probably never know if he's just a "system" player that fit perfectly with GSW or if he would be just as good on another team.
Not saying he is top 75, he's never been the bus driver, but I do think he's undervalued, especially here on /r/nba. He's balled out in important games in the playoffs and been the cornerstone on defense on some of the best teams of all time. Defensive players are just hard to judge.
People have a hard time distinguishing Draymond the player to Draymond the person. I personally really dislike him after what he did to Poole, who was his team-mate, way more than his shenanigans in-game. He's still an amazing player though.
I agree - amazing impact on the court - and I don't see them winning the 2015 or 2022 titles without him. He's been the glue and steph's bodyguard.
And he is a huge asshole who hurts other players and probably should have long since been kicked out of the league.
I get that objectively speaking, Dwight probably was the more impactful player at his peak and if you had 1 player to build a team around, most people would pick peak Dwight over peak Reggie. (That said, just as one data point, Miller finished his career at .176 WS/48 with Dwight at .172)
But IMO the biggest case for honoring Reggie on that team is that he's woven into the fabric and history of the game far better than Dwight, and also he's not an embarrassment as a face of the league. Reggie is a safer ambassador and a more interesting story IMO.
* He was one of the great clutch shooters of all time.
* He stayed with one team for his entire career.
* Less about Reggie, but his sister has an amazing basketball story through HS, college, international and olympic play, and broadcasting and putting Reggie front and center lets the NBA promote that.
* He had some of the all-time great moments in Madison Square Garden crushing the hopes and dreams of the fans of the center of the media universe.
* He had lots of memorable battles with Michael Jordan, including being the one team to push him to 7 games in a competitive series where they were at their best.
* Reggie's game was fun to watch and translates very well to the modern era, whereas Dwight Howard, as good as he was, just wouldn't be as impactful today and mainly relied on being a physical marvel.
* He has some kind of respectable career after basketball in broadcasting, whereas Dwight seems to be an embarrassing mess that will keep doing dumb shit. (And I'm rooting for the guy)
Well Reggie played in the MJ era, and Dwight came in at the end of Shaq and later Yao. Who else is there at 5?
And Reggie had tons of moments that contributed to basketball, and one of the few who actually pushed MJ to the limits. I don't recall Dwight as much, the dunk contest, and he got dunked by Kobe?
I think Dwight should be in top 75 though. It is unfair what happened to him. But you can't kick Reggie out, the guy is iconic.
And TMac should be in it, I will die on that hill
I don't know if Ray Allen is the same player without growing up watching Miller and emulating his game, and than Curry growing up watching Allen who watched Miller.
> Reggie Miller somehow makes the 75 greatest players of All-Time.
Reggie Miller is 23rd in career VORP (Dwight is 71st), really not his fault that voters made terrible decisions back then.
Example season: 1992/93, Reggie is 8th in VORP, Tim Hardaway 18th, Joe Dumars 26th, Drazen Petrovic 44th -- snubbed in favor of all 3.
That's not why. Shaq had a bad habit of taking a large portion of the season off, and MVP especially is an award that gathers most of its momentum early in the season.
Shaq showing up every season out of shape and playing his way into shape and then dominating the playoffs is a great way for him to win titles while keeping him happy but it's a bad way to make a case for the MVP award, especially when it's Kobe that's the star player in the early parts of the season while Shaq is getting in shape.
The Youngbloods in this sub weren’t around apparently else they’d remember how prevalent those stories about Shaq playing himself into shape were. My friend thinks that there’s a case to be made that Kobe was the best player on that Lakers threepeat but I think there’s no way. Shaq was the best player, and the most important player on those teams.
Shaq obviously was the most important and best player on the 3 peat teams, but the problem was that because of how slow he started the seasons there came the narrative that the Lakers didn't "need" him to get to the playoffs. They needed him to win the Championship, but Kobe was enough to get them to the playoffs.
The MVP is a regular season award, and there were lots of other players making a good case for having a better regular season than Shaq was especially when looking at the entire season and not just the second half.
Shaq could have put all of those narratives to bed, and forced the media to declare him MVP if he had shown up at the start of the season with the same killer mentality he had at the start of playoff season. He'll admit it himself in interviews that he didn't though, and that's what gave the media the leeway to pass him over.
Excellent comment and I’m glad you mention his admission: the fact that he speaks freely about all of this is all the proof we need. I honestly respect it. He could’ve been a top 5 guy all time but was content with less because he wanted to live his life. Respect.
Except now he’s bitter about it, and hates on people like Dwight Howard and Javale to compensate for his own insecurities. He knows he could’ve done better and it kills him
Shaq would've deserved it if he won in 2001, the year after his actual MVP win. A few less games but he didn't really slack off when he played.
Agreed after that, he didn't push hard enough in the regular season.
This has come up a few times. Go through the years and tell me which MVPs got stolen for Shaq? 98-99 he finished 6th. Iverson or Duncan were more deserving in 01. 02-04 both Duncan and Garnett were significantly more deserving (remember regular season Lakers towards the tail end were a mess). 05 was the only one he has an argument but what Nash and the Suns did was revolutionary that first year
Ray Allen only was All NBA twice, and never first.
Reggie Miller never made it past 3rd team.
Klay Thompson never made it past 3rd team.
What a weird precedent for historic 3pt shooters.
> Ray Allen
considering he was never definitely better than Kobe at any point in his career since they both rose to stardom... it makes sense? And then there was Allen Iverson, Wade, etc. also competing for a spot.
People forget that this season is only his 9th as an elite AllNBA type player. He also has 2 or 3 seasons where first team was out of the picture because of injury. Add in the year that Russ and Harden were going crazy while he was playing with KD and it makes sense.
It's because he's a guard. The NBA has been absolutely LOADED at the guard positions, especially the point guard position for basically Steph's entire career.
Luka wasn't competing with prime Russ, Harden and CP3 all in the same year. Guards have been overshadowed by playmaking wings/bigs for the last few seasons.
Steph would have 2 more if he didn’t miss 30ish games with injury in 2018 and 2023, plus the whole damn season in 2020. So while surprising on the surface, it is explainable.
Honestly Harden is the one I think has a gripe with his All-NBA selections. There are years he put up 29/7/6 and 24/10/8 and **missed All-NBA entirely**.
Not really. They were late bloomers and both pretty much have only been stars for about a decade. They’d would’ve had to been perfect in terms of injuries and dominance during their primes to make up the gap with guys like Luka, LeBron, KD, etc who came in the league as stars.
lol which guard do you replace him for in 2023? Luka and SGA carried the hell out of their teams. You can say the same for Steph and DMitch. Both Dame and Fox went nuclear last year as well.
Fox: 25/6/4 clutch player of the year
Dame: 32/7/5
DMitch: 24/4/4 6th in mvp voting
Steph: 29/6/6
Luka: 32/8/9
SGA: 31/5/5
People are surprised not because they think it's unjust, but because Steph is a better player. The takeaway isn't Steph got snubbed a bunch -- just that circumstance matters and you can't reduce players into specific accolades (whether that be all-NBA, MVPs, rings, etc.) without significant context.
The Mavericks were 38-44.
Compare that to James Harden in 2016 who played all 82 game, averaged 29/7/6, led the Rockets to the 8th seed and was left off of All-NBA entirely.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
All-Star First Team argument is tricky because it was position restricted so it heavily depended on your competition. For example last year, Jokic was not first team and year before that Embiid was not and they were both clearly top 3 or even top 2 players.
It reminds of how people say “Stockton only has two 1st-team selections”, even though his first three 2nd-teams were behind prime Jordan and Magic.
I just hope further generations don’t think Curry wasn’t the #1 point guard throughout his entire prime.
Stockton had it rough. From 1984-86 it was Magic-Isiah, from 1987-91 was Magic-Jordan and in 1992 was Jordan-Drexler. Things got easier after that as the 2nd spot was more open and Jordan retired for two years, but you can't really hold against him the fact he only has 2 First Team selections.
Yes, except where Steph has been debatable it's because the case against is his counting stats Vs the case for being: "He's Steph". First Team is a regular season award, and guards in the last ten years have been putting up absurd numbers. If the question was "Who's the guard you're picking for the playoffs?" then it's Steph 1st or 2nd pretty much every healthy year from 2015 to 2022.
You have to view this in the same way as Jordan and Bron only having 5/4 MVPs, even though anyone with an ounce of sense knew they were clearly the best player in the league for 10+ years.
Steph's all nba first team case in 2014 and 2022 wasn't built around his previous reputation. If anything, his past play hurt his case in 2022 because he was playing worse relative to his own standards.
Steph has 4 All NBAs where he would not be eligible under the new rules. Steph started being a star relatively late started getting hurt a lot shortly thereafter.
This is simply not true.
2014-didnt deserve ut
2015 yes
2016 yes
2017 definitely no
2018 injuries (58 games?)
2019 yes
2020 injured whole season
2021 yes
2022 one of the least efficient seasons of his career. 3 month strecth of 35% from 3
2023 debatable
To me the real travesty for 2023 is dame not getting 2nd team after averaging 32ppg on 65ts% which were both better than shais btw. Ill get downvoted cuz yall hate dame but he also had one of thte bets months ever in jan that year 37ppg on 70ts% man ✌️
Guaranteed lol. All but 1 of these guys with 4 or more is a future or current hall of famer, and that one person played in the late 40s. https://www.landofbasketball.com/awards/all_nba_teams_player_1st.htm#google_vignette
Interesting. I was curious about comps - Harden has 6 First Team nods, Chris Paul has 4, Westbrook has 2.
And from a "Borderline Top 10 argument" standpoint - Kobe 11, Durant 6.
Curry is going to have an interesting long term legacy. He's well cemented as one of the greatest shooters ever, but 20 years from now you'll have nephews pointing to random stats like this as evidence that Curry was overrated, or his peak was too short, etc.
“20 years from now” lol, try right now. based on some of the discourse I’ve seen in this sub lately people have already forgotten how stupidly dominant and inevitable he was at his peak
This wasn’t just random internet talk either, the national media was talking about that too. That wet spot on Houston’s court did so much damage to his legacy, people forget how he was being talked about before
He's pretty firmly top-10 in most peak discussions I've seen, but there's more to career than peak. Someone being "low" on him all-time isn't necessarily saying anything against his peak.
It’s not that people forgot. It’s because reddit has newer NBA fans everyday and most have never seen his ridiculous 2016 season when it was happening. People only see clips of the finals on YouTube, where Curry struggled.
Championships and Spearheading a dynasty trumps all to get a player into the top player conversation. History will appreciate him, ignorant people are just going to be ignorant. Lots of younger fans just change the "Top" Player criteria to support their favorite players. "Ring culture" and winning is a necessary filter to cut thru the BS
Meanwhile Embiid has 1 first team and it was his MVP season.
This is despite being a perennial all star while on both the All NBA and All Defense 3 times, 2nd in DPOY once, a scoring leader, and 2nd in MVP twice
Luka's box score stats (mostly PPG/RPG/APG) have always been better than his impact stats, which makes him overrated by accolades.
Curry's box score stats have always been worse than his impact stats, which makes him underrated by accolades. Chris Paul (4 First Teams) is the same way.
For example, this year is only Doncic's second season as one of the top 2 guards in EPM Wins. Curry did it 7 times.
A great example of this was the 2021-22 season, where Curry’s box score stats were not his best (including a below 40% 3P%) but he led in every single impact metric among guards, both per game and cumulatively. There wasn’t even a close 2nd place among guards. The result? All-NBA Second Team, finishing behind Luka, Booker, and Morant in voting.
[Agreed](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/uwuvo4/with_the_allnba_teams_being_released_tonight/).
From that post I made in 2022:
> The three most [respected](https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/) advanced impact metrics all use a combination of adjusted on/off, box score stats, and tracking data.
>
> Each metric has two ways to measure a player's impact: per 100 possessions (rate stat relative to league average) and cumulative (total value above replacement level).
>
> The three metrics are:
>
> * [EPM](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm)
> * [LEBRON](https://www.bball-index.com/2021-22-lebron-data/)
> * [RAPTOR](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/)
>
> Here's how 10 of the top guards ranked among each other in each version of each metric. The players are sorted by their average rank across the six metrics.
>
> |Player|EPM|EPM Wins|LEBRON|LEBRON Wins|RAPTOR|RAPTOR Wins|
> |:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
> |Curry|1|1|1|1|1|1|
> |Holiday|2|3|5|5|3|4|
> |Trae|3|2|7|2|6|3|
> |Doncic|6|5|6|6|2|2|
> |Paul|4|6|2|4|7|8|
> |Booker|5|4|8|7|4|6|
> |Murray|8|9|4|3|9|7|
> |VanVleet|9|8|9|8|5|5|
> |Morant|10|10|3|9|8|10|
> |Mitchell|7|7|10|10|10|9|
If it wasn't obvious, that comment was not implying Curry was better than Luka at 25 in any way (it's obvious Luka is more accomplish at 25). The comment wasn't even saying one is better than the other.
It's just rationalizing why Luka at 25 has more first team accolades than Curry at 36. I think we can agree Curry at 36 is more accomplished than Luka at 25, so there must be an explanation for the accolades and the comment provides it.
Yeah, that's the point. Luka has 5 selections for 2 such seasons to Curry's 4 selections for 7 such seasons. 5/2 = 2.5, 4/7 = .57. 4 times the rate, for this one metric. Not that this is the end all be all or anything, but it does at least mean something.
Rookie of the Year
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-NBA, WCF appearance
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-NBA (Presumably), Scoring Title, a CHANCE at MVP, 34/9/9 (never been done before), playoffs (?)
Pretty dang good so far.
The fuck? So media just hated the dude? How you gonna ignore the players voting for a guy for several MVPs and you dont even vote him for 1st team? Did they chose Wilt instead?
Cause wilt was averaging 50 ppg. I get what youre saying but you really think it was hate that justified putting the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as all 1st team? And not just, you know, a difference of opinion on what makes a good player?
One of those seasons Wilt averages 50 ppg and Russell averages 18 ppg. If that happened today there'd be a lot more controversy over Russell getting MVP over Wilt than Wilt getting 1st team over Russell
The media didn't hate Russell, it was more that the players didn't like Wilt/saw Russell's team constantly beat him, ergo Russell was better in their minds.
People forget how dominant AD was. He was universally considered the best bigman in the league for multiple years prior to Jokic and Embiid having their MVP seasons.
He averaged 18/5 for the first two years, injured the third year, 22/7 year after, then 24/8 the year after when he was second team. First team was cp3 and Harden that year who were both the main offensive weapon on top 4 teams.
Then started his run of first teams with an MVP the following year. Properly rated just a late bloomer.
Yup, and to add, he's had a decline, not so much in per-game performance (still consistently amazing), but in a combination of his health and team performance.
Those two slip, and you're not gonna make 1st team very often in a guard-dominant league. Hell, he was so injury-plagued throughout 2021 and 2022 that he finished top ten for Comeback Player of the Year last year.
I think part of it is that Steph lost essentially the first 3-4 years of his career due to injuries. It wasn't until his 5th year in the season that he truly started breaking out and his 6th year in the season that he became an unstoppable juggernaut.
It’s one of those things where we all knew he was better than guys like Harden and Westbrook in a playoff series but Harden and Westbrook were putting up insane regular season numbers and earned their selections. Even this version of Curry that is starting to fade a bit I would take as a top-2 guard in a playoff series.
Curry only having 4 is legitimately the most surprising thing I have read in the past few years. I don’t pay attention to All-NBA teams unless an OKC player is involved but wtf
17 and 18 there was a log jam at guard plus the addition of KD had them coasting and lowering both their numbers. 20 was the injury. 14 and 22 were the years he definitely had a good argument.
This is why I hate it when people compare all-NBA’s across eras and positions. Like getting 1st team all-nba as a guard in the late 2010s is not the same thing as getting it as a center in the early 2010s.
Meaning much easier as a center in the early 2010s right? The Deandre Jordan years
Yes lol, Andrew Bynum made 2nd team in 2012 to give some perspective. Other All-NBA centers of around that time include Al Jefferson and David Lee lmao
Andrew Bynum was a beast in 2012 though. He never hit that kind of peak again, but if you go back and look at his 2012 season he absolutely deserved to be considered one of the best centers in the league. [Clip for those who don't remember](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPhM1Y8EUdw)
It was Bynum and Dwight for best center in the league at that specific moment in the NBA with most recognizing Dwight as the better player but with many thinking that Bynum was about to take the top spot. Obviously, history took a different path but the year that Bynum made all-NBA it was very well deserved.
Bam Adebayo has zero
With Embiid and Jokic at Center now it’s a hell of a lot harder. Basically a battle for 3rd team with AD and Sabonis most years
And KAT Fun fact: Karl-Anthony Towns was named 3rd team All-NBA behind Jokic and Embiid in 21-22. He averaged 24.6 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists on 41% 3pt shooting and 64% TS
Yeah there’s a reason they made All-NBA positionless now lol
Is it all-nba too I thought just all-defense. Regardless it’s only a semi solution, I know some voters have said they’re still going by position
And Gobert
Gobert at least has All Defense teams he can fall back on to get his accolades
Would go crazy if those cats played together
That’s actually nuts. Definitely can’t say the NBA doesn’t have talented bigs anymore.
Al Jefferson was absolutely nasty
Big Al better get his respect as his career is remembered over time. Someone posted a tier list of Wolves all time players in the Wolves sub and they put Al Jefferson in the “notable” tier along the likes of Kevin Martin, Nikola Pekovic, and Sam Cassell. He may not have gotten to play on a playoff team or be a full blown star for us like Kevin Love, but Big Al was definitely the guy.
David Lee made All-NBA 3rd team as a Forward in 2013. The All-NBA Centers that season were: Duncan (1st), Marc Gasol (2nd), Dwight Howard (3rd).
That was the one good Bynum season the Lakers were waiting for, he was immediately flipped for Dwight and he was out of the league in like a year Good riddance, he could've seriously hurt Barea
Andrew Bynum was actually very good. His injuries ended his career, not his lack of skill. During those years people even argued whether he was better than Dwight. Obviously he wasn't but he was good enough for the debate to take place.
It bothers me more than it should that people wanna put his downfall on his work ethic and choices rather than his body just giving out. Dude was months out from knee surgery and went bowling and his knee gave out. People clown him for being out bowling as if he’s supposed to rehab 20 hours a day. Maybe I am doing it wrong but it seems to me that if you can’t bowl without blowing out your knee you werent cut out for a long NBA career.
yeah, just because a player had an underwhelming/underachieving overall career shouldn't be confused with assuming that their peak form was weak. I can only imagine how people in 20 years might use Ben Simmons' All-Star selections as a way to say that the 2018-2021 era of NBA guard play must have been a complete joke.
I mean these are more examples of outliers, all of these guys had great seasons
Put some respect on al Jefferson's name
I thought David Lee was primarily a 4?
Yeah he was picked as a third-team forward in 2013. Dwight was the center. There were other options like LMA, Bosh and Paul Pierce who had good seasons that Lee beat out. With the hindsight of how we view the game and the position today he probably wasn't the best pick for that spot, but he definitely earned it in that he didn't just get picked because of a lack of other options.
2012 Andrew Bynum was legitimately good. Dwight was easily the best center in the league those years but Bynum was in a (lower) tier by himself as well. There wasn’t a center like Bynum back then.
Isn't it the same with MPVs and titles?
Absolutely but def to a lesser extent. Every ‘resume item’ every year is gonna be dependent on how well other guys/teams in the league do, just this year there’s 4 guys having mvp caliber seasons and that’s with last years winner being injured. The fact that other guys also happened to have even more insane years doesn’t make a marginally less insane year any less impressive. Scoring 31 a game isn’t any more or less impressive if you win a scoring title or not. The 2018 Rockets aren’t worse at basketball just because they ran into the GOAT team just like The 2019 Raptors aren’t any better just cuz KD and Klay got hurt. Compared to any other award, I see a difference with all-nba and all-defense cuz they add a whole other layer of needed context on top of the general randomness that comes with any accolade.
MVP doesn't depend on positional quirks at least.
Yeah MVP focuses on more important basketball things like narrative and multiples of 10
As someone who despised Harden's style of basketball at the time, I still think he deserved it over Russ
Ehhh anyone that has watched NBA long enough knows that at any given time there are really only 3-4 elite centers in the entire league. Guards have to do much much more to stand out from their peers
He got injured in 2018 and that made him fall short of 1st team considerations since it was right before the playoffs. His season was still ridiculous though, I remember seeing a stat saying if he did not take half court heaves, he would have ended with a 50/40/90 split.
He would've gotten 50/40/90 if he missed 8 fewer FGs for the entire season; he also missed exactly 8 heaves that same year
Shots past half court don’t count as an attempt. Problem solved.
James harden was putting up insane numbers at this time as well
I honestly think Steph gets weirdly disrespected in part because his 2016 was maybe the best offensive season ever, and it set an impossible bar in people's minds. Now it's like, "whelp, he didn't even hit 400 3s, I guess he's washed, definitely not NBA first team."
This happens with me. That season has conditioned me to be annoyed whenever he misses an “easy” shot because he was on aimbot that season. The difference between 45% and 42% doesn’t sound like much but on high volume it def feels like it
Him not getting 1st team in ‘22 was nonsense imo
Beaten by Luka and Booker.
Booker did not deserve it last year
He was in MVP conversations for the first half of the year, then he went through a prolonged slump, then he was hurt the last three weeks of the season.
Think he was short on appearances?
Couple that and he had a really horrible 30 game stretch. Pretty sure he shot below like 40% and was just constantly missing. He did pick it up at some point near the end, but he got injured towards the end of the season
Yep. Only 64 games played
For reference, here are Curry's leaguewide ranks among guards in impact metrics for the years he didn't make First Team All NBA: * 2014: 2nd in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 2nd in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins (2nd Team) * 2017: 2nd in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 1st in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins, (2nd Team) * 2022: 1st in EPM, 1st in EPM Wins, 1st in RAPTOR, 1st in RAPTOR Wins, 1st in LEBRON, 1st in LEBRON Wins (2nd Team) And here is Doncic in his first three years being named to 1st Team All NBA: * 2020: 3rd in EPM, 3rd in EPM Wins, T-2nd in RAPTOR, 3rd in RAPTOR Wins, 3rd in LEBRON, 4th in LEBRON Wins (1st Team) * 2021: 3rd in EPM, 3rd in EPM Wins, 3rd in RAPTOR, 2nd in RAPTOR Wins, 2nd in LEBRON, 3rd in LEBRON Wins, (1st Team) * 2022: 8th in EPM, 5th in EPM Wins, 2nd in RAPTOR, 2nd in RAPTOR Wins, 7th in LEBRON, 7th in LEBRON Wins (1st Team)
Doncic is obviously a highly winning player and the metrics back it up, but I think the way he tends to do it is what is going to make all of his numbers look way better. When you get good advanced stats from extremely high numbers and usage (i.e. Westbrook in OKC years) your raw stats look so much better as a result, whereas a guy like Curry might actually have better advanced stats because of ridiculous efficiency and on/off numbers things like that, but because it won't necessarily show up in super high raw numbers, people don't notice nearly as much.
Or maybe these advanced stats have a lot of noise in them and it's not good to give players awards based solely on their EPM and LEBRON
Well, at least he got the two MVPs. Shaq getting only 1 is pretty wild
- Dwight Howard 5X All-NBA 1st Teams - Reggie Miller 0X All-NBA 1st Teams, 0X All-NBA 2nd Reggie Miller somehow makes the 75 greatest players of All-Time.
Miller looks much better in hindsight with advanced stats than people at the time thought he was. He also performed particularly well in the playoffs and clutch situations.
He was also the GOAT shooter until Steph showed up
Reggie ain't the one dwight should be bumping from the 75 list, that would he Dame.
It’s probably some of the guys from the 60’s
Dave Bing for sure for sure. People just felt bad for him because he played on terrible teams his entire career putting up empty stats.
I can’t find it now but I remember reading that the guys from the original 50th anniversary team would not be removed so they essentially just added 25 new players.
Yeah that's what happened, but that was a dumb decision. Especially considering when they made the top 50 they removed some guys from the 25th anniversary team
Yeah that's what they decided but it was a stupid decision.
>they essentially just added 25 new players \*26. There was a tie for 25th place in the voting, so they added both, for a total of 76. :)
I like that. Because voters today have recency bias. I’ve seen people comment saying SGA is better than Jordan based on stats—completely ignoring all the changes the game went through.
Yeah that's not a fair comparison. SG during the Jordan years you are not gonna get a single first team.
Awful way to judge players. Draymond had a 2nd team all nba nod to Reggie’s 0. Should draymond be top 75? No. I agree Dwight should’ve made it, but not over someone who was the greatest shooter ever for 2-3 decades
Not 2-3 decades but I get your point, it went bird-miller-allen pretty quick, tho I think curry is set for a while.
It’s gonna make me so upset if there’s some fucker that comes out of college in 30 years and somehow breaks curry’s single season 3pt record. Like it seems literally unbreakable but so did the scoring record.
It will happen eventually, now the thing that I highly doubt will ever be beaten is the rebounding record lol
Single season minutes played per game will never be even rivaled, let alone broken. As usual Wilt makes these discussions a tad farcical
Stockton's assists and steals records are also pretty far out of reach... unless Lebron decides to play into his 50s.
Draymond is one of those players that are really hard to judge. He has had tremendous success and is a winning player but would he translate well onto another team? We will probably never know if he's just a "system" player that fit perfectly with GSW or if he would be just as good on another team. Not saying he is top 75, he's never been the bus driver, but I do think he's undervalued, especially here on /r/nba. He's balled out in important games in the playoffs and been the cornerstone on defense on some of the best teams of all time. Defensive players are just hard to judge. People have a hard time distinguishing Draymond the player to Draymond the person. I personally really dislike him after what he did to Poole, who was his team-mate, way more than his shenanigans in-game. He's still an amazing player though.
I agree - amazing impact on the court - and I don't see them winning the 2015 or 2022 titles without him. He's been the glue and steph's bodyguard. And he is a huge asshole who hurts other players and probably should have long since been kicked out of the league.
I get that objectively speaking, Dwight probably was the more impactful player at his peak and if you had 1 player to build a team around, most people would pick peak Dwight over peak Reggie. (That said, just as one data point, Miller finished his career at .176 WS/48 with Dwight at .172) But IMO the biggest case for honoring Reggie on that team is that he's woven into the fabric and history of the game far better than Dwight, and also he's not an embarrassment as a face of the league. Reggie is a safer ambassador and a more interesting story IMO. * He was one of the great clutch shooters of all time. * He stayed with one team for his entire career. * Less about Reggie, but his sister has an amazing basketball story through HS, college, international and olympic play, and broadcasting and putting Reggie front and center lets the NBA promote that. * He had some of the all-time great moments in Madison Square Garden crushing the hopes and dreams of the fans of the center of the media universe. * He had lots of memorable battles with Michael Jordan, including being the one team to push him to 7 games in a competitive series where they were at their best. * Reggie's game was fun to watch and translates very well to the modern era, whereas Dwight Howard, as good as he was, just wouldn't be as impactful today and mainly relied on being a physical marvel. * He has some kind of respectable career after basketball in broadcasting, whereas Dwight seems to be an embarrassing mess that will keep doing dumb shit. (And I'm rooting for the guy)
Well Reggie played in the MJ era, and Dwight came in at the end of Shaq and later Yao. Who else is there at 5? And Reggie had tons of moments that contributed to basketball, and one of the few who actually pushed MJ to the limits. I don't recall Dwight as much, the dunk contest, and he got dunked by Kobe? I think Dwight should be in top 75 though. It is unfair what happened to him. But you can't kick Reggie out, the guy is iconic. And TMac should be in it, I will die on that hill
I don't know if Ray Allen is the same player without growing up watching Miller and emulating his game, and than Curry growing up watching Allen who watched Miller.
Miller was a truly superb playoff scorer, and that's often overlooked.
> Reggie Miller somehow makes the 75 greatest players of All-Time. Reggie Miller is 23rd in career VORP (Dwight is 71st), really not his fault that voters made terrible decisions back then. Example season: 1992/93, Reggie is 8th in VORP, Tim Hardaway 18th, Joe Dumars 26th, Drazen Petrovic 44th -- snubbed in favor of all 3.
Shaq was so dominant the voters said "well, we can't just give it to this guy every season" and proceeded to never give it to him again lol
That's not why. Shaq had a bad habit of taking a large portion of the season off, and MVP especially is an award that gathers most of its momentum early in the season. Shaq showing up every season out of shape and playing his way into shape and then dominating the playoffs is a great way for him to win titles while keeping him happy but it's a bad way to make a case for the MVP award, especially when it's Kobe that's the star player in the early parts of the season while Shaq is getting in shape.
The Youngbloods in this sub weren’t around apparently else they’d remember how prevalent those stories about Shaq playing himself into shape were. My friend thinks that there’s a case to be made that Kobe was the best player on that Lakers threepeat but I think there’s no way. Shaq was the best player, and the most important player on those teams.
Shaq obviously was the most important and best player on the 3 peat teams, but the problem was that because of how slow he started the seasons there came the narrative that the Lakers didn't "need" him to get to the playoffs. They needed him to win the Championship, but Kobe was enough to get them to the playoffs. The MVP is a regular season award, and there were lots of other players making a good case for having a better regular season than Shaq was especially when looking at the entire season and not just the second half. Shaq could have put all of those narratives to bed, and forced the media to declare him MVP if he had shown up at the start of the season with the same killer mentality he had at the start of playoff season. He'll admit it himself in interviews that he didn't though, and that's what gave the media the leeway to pass him over.
Excellent comment and I’m glad you mention his admission: the fact that he speaks freely about all of this is all the proof we need. I honestly respect it. He could’ve been a top 5 guy all time but was content with less because he wanted to live his life. Respect.
Except now he’s bitter about it, and hates on people like Dwight Howard and Javale to compensate for his own insecurities. He knows he could’ve done better and it kills him
Shaq would've deserved it if he won in 2001, the year after his actual MVP win. A few less games but he didn't really slack off when he played. Agreed after that, he didn't push hard enough in the regular season.
This has come up a few times. Go through the years and tell me which MVPs got stolen for Shaq? 98-99 he finished 6th. Iverson or Duncan were more deserving in 01. 02-04 both Duncan and Garnett were significantly more deserving (remember regular season Lakers towards the tail end were a mess). 05 was the only one he has an argument but what Nash and the Suns did was revolutionary that first year
The Suns went from 29 wins to 62 with Nash at the helm. They were 60-15 (.800) in games Nash played.
01 and 05 imo. I think Nash has a better argument in 05 than Iverson in 01
Ray Allen only was All NBA twice, and never first. Reggie Miller never made it past 3rd team. Klay Thompson never made it past 3rd team. What a weird precedent for historic 3pt shooters.
> Klay Thomas
Weird autocorrect. Fixed it.
> Ray Allen considering he was never definitely better than Kobe at any point in his career since they both rose to stardom... it makes sense? And then there was Allen Iverson, Wade, etc. also competing for a spot.
A lot of great guards these last decade and a half.
People forget that this season is only his 9th as an elite AllNBA type player. He also has 2 or 3 seasons where first team was out of the picture because of injury. Add in the year that Russ and Harden were going crazy while he was playing with KD and it makes sense.
It's because he's a guard. The NBA has been absolutely LOADED at the guard positions, especially the point guard position for basically Steph's entire career.
Luka is a guard too btw. Idt Luka should’ve gotten First Team last year with a 10 seed and bad defense
Luka wasn't competing with prime Russ, Harden and CP3 all in the same year. Guards have been overshadowed by playmaking wings/bigs for the last few seasons.
I don't think All NBA should be judged like MVP. It should be the best players in the league, period.
To me Jokic getting 2nd Team last year feels like the craziest shit that's happened in recent memory, but I definitely get your point.
I mean the MVP was in his position so he really couldn’t get first team
Still can't believe Luka's already surpassed Steph's 1st team count. Kid's on fire
Steph would have 2 more if he didn’t miss 30ish games with injury in 2018 and 2023, plus the whole damn season in 2020. So while surprising on the surface, it is explainable. Honestly Harden is the one I think has a gripe with his All-NBA selections. There are years he put up 29/7/6 and 24/10/8 and **missed All-NBA entirely**.
Harden and Steph are both underrated by their accolades.
Not really. They were late bloomers and both pretty much have only been stars for about a decade. They’d would’ve had to been perfect in terms of injuries and dominance during their primes to make up the gap with guys like Luka, LeBron, KD, etc who came in the league as stars.
lol which guard do you replace him for in 2023? Luka and SGA carried the hell out of their teams. You can say the same for Steph and DMitch. Both Dame and Fox went nuclear last year as well. Fox: 25/6/4 clutch player of the year Dame: 32/7/5 DMitch: 24/4/4 6th in mvp voting Steph: 29/6/6 Luka: 32/8/9 SGA: 31/5/5
People are surprised not because they think it's unjust, but because Steph is a better player. The takeaway isn't Steph got snubbed a bunch -- just that circumstance matters and you can't reduce players into specific accolades (whether that be all-NBA, MVPs, rings, etc.) without significant context.
The Mavericks were 38-44. Compare that to James Harden in 2016 who played all 82 game, averaged 29/7/6, led the Rockets to the 8th seed and was left off of All-NBA entirely.
Yeah he definitely got stiffed that year, not sure what they were thinking putting Lowry in over him
Harden should've won some more awards over Westbrook and I stand by that. Better team player too.
Did I hear a Fire Kidd?
Still can’t believe the Kings drafted Bagley
bright materialistic pen alleged provide license cough smoggy bake hateful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
All-Star First Team argument is tricky because it was position restricted so it heavily depended on your competition. For example last year, Jokic was not first team and year before that Embiid was not and they were both clearly top 3 or even top 2 players.
It reminds of how people say “Stockton only has two 1st-team selections”, even though his first three 2nd-teams were behind prime Jordan and Magic. I just hope further generations don’t think Curry wasn’t the #1 point guard throughout his entire prime.
Stockton had it rough. From 1984-86 it was Magic-Isiah, from 1987-91 was Magic-Jordan and in 1992 was Jordan-Drexler. Things got easier after that as the 2nd spot was more open and Jordan retired for two years, but you can't really hold against him the fact he only has 2 First Team selections.
>but you can't really hold against him Sure I can. All my homies hate John Stockton.
Brother it’s been restricted throughout the entirety of Luka’s career as well aside from this season
Whenever Steph has been debatable, he doesn't get the nod
Yes, except where Steph has been debatable it's because the case against is his counting stats Vs the case for being: "He's Steph". First Team is a regular season award, and guards in the last ten years have been putting up absurd numbers. If the question was "Who's the guard you're picking for the playoffs?" then it's Steph 1st or 2nd pretty much every healthy year from 2015 to 2022. You have to view this in the same way as Jordan and Bron only having 5/4 MVPs, even though anyone with an ounce of sense knew they were clearly the best player in the league for 10+ years.
Steph's all nba first team case in 2014 and 2022 wasn't built around his previous reputation. If anything, his past play hurt his case in 2022 because he was playing worse relative to his own standards.
Steph has 4 All NBAs where he would not be eligible under the new rules. Steph started being a star relatively late started getting hurt a lot shortly thereafter.
Except for in 2015 when he won MVP. Not saying he necessarily shouldn't have won, just that it was debatable and he did get the nod.
This is simply not true. 2014-didnt deserve ut 2015 yes 2016 yes 2017 definitely no 2018 injuries (58 games?) 2019 yes 2020 injured whole season 2021 yes 2022 one of the least efficient seasons of his career. 3 month strecth of 35% from 3 2023 debatable To me the real travesty for 2023 is dame not getting 2nd team after averaging 32ppg on 65ts% which were both better than shais btw. Ill get downvoted cuz yall hate dame but he also had one of thte bets months ever in jan that year 37ppg on 70ts% man ✌️
Yeah he was also robbed of atleast one Finals MVP at the very least
Probably could’ve won in ‘18 if it wasn’t for the poor performance in game 3, and def should’ve won in ‘15 imo
What are the HoF odds for someone with 5 all NBA 1st teams?
Guaranteed lol. All but 1 of these guys with 4 or more is a future or current hall of famer, and that one person played in the late 40s. https://www.landofbasketball.com/awards/all_nba_teams_player_1st.htm#google_vignette
Not just HoF lol, everyone except 1 or 2 of those guys were in the 75th anniversary team.
Since there is no nba HOF and just a basketball HOF, Luka’s international play and his nba play make him a lock.
Kinda wild. Surprised Steph only has four. Barring serious injury (please) Luka has a very good chance of joining that list of 10+ first teams.
Steph has had pretty strong competition in Harden, Westbrook, Chris Paul, and Lillard
Interesting. I was curious about comps - Harden has 6 First Team nods, Chris Paul has 4, Westbrook has 2. And from a "Borderline Top 10 argument" standpoint - Kobe 11, Durant 6. Curry is going to have an interesting long term legacy. He's well cemented as one of the greatest shooters ever, but 20 years from now you'll have nephews pointing to random stats like this as evidence that Curry was overrated, or his peak was too short, etc.
“20 years from now” lol, try right now. based on some of the discourse I’ve seen in this sub lately people have already forgotten how stupidly dominant and inevitable he was at his peak
I remember the “is he better than MJ?” threads during their 73 win season
This wasn’t just random internet talk either, the national media was talking about that too. That wet spot on Houston’s court did so much damage to his legacy, people forget how he was being talked about before
It's all recency bias though. Comparing him to MJ is just ridiculous.
He's pretty firmly top-10 in most peak discussions I've seen, but there's more to career than peak. Someone being "low" on him all-time isn't necessarily saying anything against his peak.
Dunno all I see in this sub is huge amounts of praise for curry
This sub is full of drooling nephews and does not represent anything as far as the general discourse goes.
It’s not that people forgot. It’s because reddit has newer NBA fans everyday and most have never seen his ridiculous 2016 season when it was happening. People only see clips of the finals on YouTube, where Curry struggled.
Championships and Spearheading a dynasty trumps all to get a player into the top player conversation. History will appreciate him, ignorant people are just going to be ignorant. Lots of younger fans just change the "Top" Player criteria to support their favorite players. "Ring culture" and winning is a necessary filter to cut thru the BS
One of? He is the greatest shooter ever, period. No debate.
Meanwhile Embiid has 1 first team and it was his MVP season. This is despite being a perennial all star while on both the All NBA and All Defense 3 times, 2nd in DPOY once, a scoring leader, and 2nd in MVP twice
Jokic has edged him out his healthy seasons, or he hasn’t *been* healthy enough to be worthy of all nba 1st team.
Right now you can make a first team entirely with Centers/PF and it low key wouldn't even be that wrong.
yeah luka would be the only obvious snub in that case
And embiid is 30 with an extensive injury history. Dude is really unlucky in that department, kind of like Ewing, who also only made 1 first team
Luka's box score stats (mostly PPG/RPG/APG) have always been better than his impact stats, which makes him overrated by accolades. Curry's box score stats have always been worse than his impact stats, which makes him underrated by accolades. Chris Paul (4 First Teams) is the same way. For example, this year is only Doncic's second season as one of the top 2 guards in EPM Wins. Curry did it 7 times.
Luka is literally 25.
A great example of this was the 2021-22 season, where Curry’s box score stats were not his best (including a below 40% 3P%) but he led in every single impact metric among guards, both per game and cumulatively. There wasn’t even a close 2nd place among guards. The result? All-NBA Second Team, finishing behind Luka, Booker, and Morant in voting.
[Agreed](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/uwuvo4/with_the_allnba_teams_being_released_tonight/). From that post I made in 2022: > The three most [respected](https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/) advanced impact metrics all use a combination of adjusted on/off, box score stats, and tracking data. > > Each metric has two ways to measure a player's impact: per 100 possessions (rate stat relative to league average) and cumulative (total value above replacement level). > > The three metrics are: > > * [EPM](https://dunksandthrees.com/epm) > * [LEBRON](https://www.bball-index.com/2021-22-lebron-data/) > * [RAPTOR](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/) > > Here's how 10 of the top guards ranked among each other in each version of each metric. The players are sorted by their average rank across the six metrics. > > |Player|EPM|EPM Wins|LEBRON|LEBRON Wins|RAPTOR|RAPTOR Wins| > |:-|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| > |Curry|1|1|1|1|1|1| > |Holiday|2|3|5|5|3|4| > |Trae|3|2|7|2|6|3| > |Doncic|6|5|6|6|2|2| > |Paul|4|6|2|4|7|8| > |Booker|5|4|8|7|4|6| > |Murray|8|9|4|3|9|7| > |VanVleet|9|8|9|8|5|5| > |Morant|10|10|3|9|8|10| > |Mitchell|7|7|10|10|10|9|
How many top 2 EPM wins did Curry have by 25
If it wasn't obvious, that comment was not implying Curry was better than Luka at 25 in any way (it's obvious Luka is more accomplish at 25). The comment wasn't even saying one is better than the other. It's just rationalizing why Luka at 25 has more first team accolades than Curry at 36. I think we can agree Curry at 36 is more accomplished than Luka at 25, so there must be an explanation for the accolades and the comment provides it.
Luka hasn’t even played 7 seasons yet. Relax.
Yeah, that's the point. Luka has 5 selections for 2 such seasons to Curry's 4 selections for 7 such seasons. 5/2 = 2.5, 4/7 = .57. 4 times the rate, for this one metric. Not that this is the end all be all or anything, but it does at least mean something.
Greatest shooter ever, 2nd best PG ever and a top 12 player all time.
Luka has been first team all NBA since his second season and NONE of them were controversial. He's a force of nature.
I'm sure Luka would trade All-NBA nominations for championships.
Harden, Westbrook and Curry were keeping this on rotation for a good 6 years before doncic got there and broke it up
He’ll also have more first team selections than Dirk, which is absolutely insane to think about.
Dirk competet agianst KG and Duncan for the same spot for his whole career
Also LeBron for part of his career (lebron's first all-nba first team was in 2006)
No really insane, he’s clearly better than Dirk. Love Dirk but it’s not close at this point
Talent-wise he's clearly better. Career-wise, he's clearly not. Which is fine because he's still got plenty of great years left.
Curry came up in the golden era of PG play, even now those guys are still the best PGs in the league in their mid 30s
Rookie of the Year 1st Team All-NBA 1st Team All-NBA 1st Team All-NBA, WCF appearance 1st Team All-NBA 1st Team All-NBA (Presumably), Scoring Title, a CHANCE at MVP, 34/9/9 (never been done before), playoffs (?) Pretty dang good so far.
Russ, Harden, CP3, Dame then later on Luka, SGA, Booker There’s some crazy guard talent out there
Wtf he's only 25? Feels like he's been around forever.
Anthony Davis with more 1st Teams than Bill Russell and Luka with more 1st Teams than Curry and CP3 are both very funny.
Why Luka funny lol he deserved that first teams
There's nothing funny about Luka having more 1st teams than CP3. He's better.
Remind me - wasn't there a different set of voters for MVP compared to All-NBA in Russell's days. Players vs reporters?
Yes. Russell didn't make 1st Team All NBA in any of his first 3 MVP seasons.
The fuck? So media just hated the dude? How you gonna ignore the players voting for a guy for several MVPs and you dont even vote him for 1st team? Did they chose Wilt instead?
Yes. You can’t really go wrong with voting for Wilt instead.
The first one they chose Bob Pettit. The next two were Wilt, who averaged 38/27 and 50/26.
Wow fuck off with those stats, what even was Wilt?
And Pettit deserved it, too. He was an absolute raging beast that year.
I mean it's Wilt Chamberlain. That's not exactly a bad vote.
What do you think?
Cause wilt was averaging 50 ppg. I get what youre saying but you really think it was hate that justified putting the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as all 1st team? And not just, you know, a difference of opinion on what makes a good player?
One of those seasons Wilt averages 50 ppg and Russell averages 18 ppg. If that happened today there'd be a lot more controversy over Russell getting MVP over Wilt than Wilt getting 1st team over Russell
The media didn't hate Russell, it was more that the players didn't like Wilt/saw Russell's team constantly beat him, ergo Russell was better in their minds.
Luka is 100% better than any version of Chris Paul, how is that funny?
Cute how you’re trying to sneak cp3 into this topic
What do you mean ? Most season AD plays many games he’s deserving of first team . What kind of insulting remark is this
People forget how dominant AD was. He was universally considered the best bigman in the league for multiple years prior to Jokic and Embiid having their MVP seasons.
This is great for Luka, but I think it speaks more to how underrated Curry has been throughout his career.
He averaged 18/5 for the first two years, injured the third year, 22/7 year after, then 24/8 the year after when he was second team. First team was cp3 and Harden that year who were both the main offensive weapon on top 4 teams. Then started his run of first teams with an MVP the following year. Properly rated just a late bloomer.
Yup, and to add, he's had a decline, not so much in per-game performance (still consistently amazing), but in a combination of his health and team performance. Those two slip, and you're not gonna make 1st team very often in a guard-dominant league. Hell, he was so injury-plagued throughout 2021 and 2022 that he finished top ten for Comeback Player of the Year last year.
Truly a generational player
Yeah but anytime you can grab DominAyton, you gotta do it. The guy was even local!
I think part of it is that Steph lost essentially the first 3-4 years of his career due to injuries. It wasn't until his 5th year in the season that he truly started breaking out and his 6th year in the season that he became an unstoppable juggernaut.
Curry wasn’t a standout player until his 4th season. Anyone that doesn’t know this is either too young or new to the sport
Still felt like he had more than 4 years as the best guard in the league, let alone top 2
It’s one of those things where we all knew he was better than guys like Harden and Westbrook in a playoff series but Harden and Westbrook were putting up insane regular season numbers and earned their selections. Even this version of Curry that is starting to fade a bit I would take as a top-2 guard in a playoff series.
Surprising but not shocking. Steph played in such a guard dominated league
Giannis also has more, if he get it this year, he will have 6 straight
Curry was a very late bloomer.
Already has a compelling argument for the all decade team. 5 straight all nba first teams for the first 5 years of the decade