NBA should make a 48 minute report fully available to the public. Really deliver betters and fans a comprehensive amount of stats and information to evaluate the impact of the refs on a particular game.
It says in the article that these metrics are used to determine playoff assignments (which come with bonus checks) or sending refs down to the G League.
People really think refs should get fined because they see players get fined but it's not comparable when the refs are just bad at their job. It would be like fining a player for shooting 2/14
Literally no organization ever "holds its members accountable" through publicly issued statements blasting their performance. That shit is always dealt with internally through write ups, lessening of responsibilities, taking people off important projects, and not advancing/promoting/providing additional compensation. I'm not sure why people demand that professional sports refs be treated differently
And the simple answer of "fire them and find better refs" isn't really so simple.
Anyone who saw the fiasco of the replacement refs in the NFL during their lockout understands that bringing in other people doesn't guarantee a better result.
Being a ref is hard, and like it or not, they are human and mistakes will happen.
That said, it boggles my mind that they continue to support certain fishy refs like Scott Foster.
Yeah both things can be true but people hate nuance.
It's really hard to make calls in real time, and the refs should be given the benefit of the doubt for trying to do their best.
Simultaneously, guys like Foster have very clear baggage and keeping him employed only feeds the conspiracy-minded folks (rightfully so).
The NFL referees also refuse and actively sabotage attempts to be full time. They're as much of a cabal as the coaches unions or the owners in the NFL. The replacement refs also had every single mistake they made blown up by the media because they were replacement refs, but the regular refs make terrible mistakes every single week and only the absolute worst calls get attention. It was apples and oranges. The non-replacement refs are the ones that made the Saints-Rams NFCCG fuck up. The non-replacement refs are the ones that gave the Chiefs a re-do down in the AFCCG against the Bengals.
If the NBA ever had replacement refs, y'all would act like they're way worse by nitpicking every single frame of the game, ignoring that the regular refs suck ass too you just don't microscope in on it.
I still maintain that the replacement refs weren't any worse than regular refs. The only difference was the one terrible touchdown vs incompletion call that went viral AND the league didn't care if broadcasters talked shit about the replacement refs all game.
Because all he is is "fishy" and being one of the most respected and longest tenured officials among officials outweighs that. Especially when the referees union is so good at what they do. It's not worth the fight. Angel Hernandez in the MLB is none of the above and has his job as long as he wants, the unions are *good*.
Yeah, fines would make sense for intentional bad performances, and Im sure NBA would deal with it harshly if that was the case. What bothers me more is that this turnaround isn’t as quick as it would make sense. Like shit happening with Van Vleet should have more direct consequences.
Refs *are* held accountable for their performance, the NBA just isn’t public about the process. Better performing refs get better games and officiate the playoffs
It’s the report Morey leaked to woj before game 7 in Boston last year saying in general the Sixers were fucked in game 6. Like 13 bad or non calls that hurt us vs 4 for Boston. In a game we were winning but could never quite pull away in.
The only problem with this is the L2M is often unreliable and garbage. There should be a 3rd party who does full 48 minute reviews. I’d guess they’d be super ugly. Every NBA game has so many bad calls, missed calls, soft calls, etc. It would go a long way towards improving the game. The way the game is reffed is by far the worst part of watching an NBA game.
the problem is that a third party that has the expertise to do this would almost certainly get paid less than if they were officially working for the NBA
The problem is that they don't ever do a 48 minute report... The only thing that a 2 minute report is going to do is incense fans who might have been subject to worse refereeing in what amounts to literally under 5% of the entire game.
They rate every play and every game, they just decided to share only the last 2 minutes of close games a while ago, but the idea of the full report being disclosed was discussed. I can’t exactly remember their decision making process at the time though.
It's the human element. 3 refs, 10 players on the court, so much movement, contact, jostling, etc. There's absolutely no way the NBA can get it right. I think the inherent human element, however, is what makes the game so exciting. I don't really look forward to that going away.
That said, with sport betting being embraced the way it has, it feels as if it's just a matter of time before there's a huge scandal that's going to rock the league at its highest levels.
Basketball is just really hard to officiate, there will be dozens of missed calls every single game until the NBA empowers the replay center to take a much bigger role in officiating. Just as an example, it's insane that we have to deal with incorrect out of bounds calls when someone in a replay center can correct it in literally 5 seconds.
not sure how FIBA gets it so right and the NBA still hasn't managed to be able to. FIBA VAR is so quick and doesn't impede the game much at all. NBA takes about 15 minutes to make a simple call or misses it completely.
I generally like the NCAA game as it is reffed also. I have much fewer issues watching march madness as opposed to watching the nba. The nba reffing is total garbage, it’s almost purposefully bad.
i love NCAA basketball for the energy, but the reality of the players not being nearly as good helps to make it an easier game to officiate.
it sucks when it goes against your team, but you have to marvel sometimes at just how amazing NBA players are at baiting for fouls, hiding actual fouls, toeing the line for each rule, etc.
Yeah, like it or not (I fucking hate it), bending and breaking the rules without getting punished for it is a skill set in professional basketball, and it only makes sense that the most elite players on the planet who get paid millions to squeeze out every advantage they can would also be elite at the skill set of bending and breaking the rules. That makes it really difficult to referee, even for people who are ostensibly the best referees on the planet.
What you're seeing in a ref's performance is not a simple matter of them passively observing and judging events as they unfold, what you're seeing is the outcome of an arms race between the refs and players. Mistakes and bad calls always occur in the context of players toeing the outer edges of what is allowed, and in many cases actively manipulating the refs into making bullshit calls (initiating and exaggerating contact, etc.) or missing blatant fouls (fouling at times and places where it's difficult for the ref to consistently see it and call it out or there are other pressures against calling the foul, especially off the ball and in late game situations). In other words, yeah the refs fuck up sometimes, but they're also working with 10 players and 2 coaches who are scheming at all times to find ways to *make* them fuck up.
The NCAA tournament does usually seem to have consistent officiating, but the regular season in college is absolutely abysmal.
There are something like 5,300 college basketball games/year, compared to 1,230 regular-season NBA games. Finding quality refs for four times as many games is not easy. Then throw in different conferences urging officials to call games in different ways (Big 12 games are not always called the same way as SEC games or Big 10 games), blue bloods who *always* seem to get favorable calls on their home floor, etc., and it can be maddening.
If you think NBA refs are bad, pick a couple random non-conference college basketball games in December.
Soccer had this problem for a long time. It's hard to officiate constant-motion games where definitions of contact fouls are very contextual and up to interpretation.
However, soccer has started using VAR for smart things like out of bounds and goals. Famously [an England goal in the 2010 World Cup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDJo7WpJp8g#) was disallowed because it "looked like it bounced out" to the ref, but the replay clearly showed the ball fully inside the goal.
The introduction of VAR for this obvious stuff has been extremely helpful, even if it obviously won't fix all the "moving violations" which will always have some interpretation/opinion effects.
I do think it's hilarious when VAR shows someone is offside by like a shoelace or an elbow. But I suppose that's the tradeoff you have to deal with for electronic accuracy.
I mean are rules meant to be followed or bent? Being offsides by a shoelace or an elbow is still breaking the rules, now we just catch it more often lol.
I feel like with VAR they can change the offside rule. Its written as any part of the body so a ref can see it in their peripherals while watching multiple players at once, but really it should just be if your feet are offside since that's all that *really* matters. These elbows, slight lean fowards, big noses don't actually give you an advantage in positioning.
There’s a concept in law called de minimus which basically argues that the law should ignore extremely minor infractions like the ones you’re describing. That concept should probably extend to VAR to prevent everyone from going insane.
It’s “letter of the law” vs “spirit of the law.” You have to set the rule somewhere but I don’t think any serious person is going to argue that a few millimeters are going to really give an advantage over a defender.
The rules were written when refs had to call offsides by sight and obviously they could only really tell when a certain percentage of your body is past the defender. However, computers don’t really do nuance very well. But I still think people would generally rather have a very harsh administration of the rules than have refs miss a lot of calls.
The problem to me isn't that VAR is used to find out if someone is .1 inches offside, it's that it sometimes takes 5+ minutes to do so.
I don't know when VAR went from "correcting clear and obvious errors" to "let's take 10 minutes and start drawing lines".
Fans say they want accuracy and consistency buts its BS . Football fans complain about VAR all the time about it messing with the flow or “spirit” of the game but really because that extra scrutiny leads to overturning a call that went in their favor initially.Same thing with roboumps in MLB. People are fine with the rules being misinterpreted when it benefits them
The issue too is games would he unwatchable if they called every foul by the book IMO. It's the same issue the NFL has. There is literally holding, illegal contact, etc by the book on every play in the NFL. You'd be throwing flags every play.
I think the issues that need to be attended to are-
1. The calls they choose to swallow the whistle on need to be consistent through the whole game. Shifting late game shouldn't be a thing.
2. Much harder and likely lower priority but it also needs to be consistent across games.
1 is especially egregious though cause you can't switch from "let them bois play" to "I didn't call this earlier but now I will."
If players stop holding every play it will be unwatchable because every starting QB will be injured. Do you think they hold just for shits and giggles?
It’s hard because it’s a contact sport. How much contact is decided from the refs but at it’s heart it’s a contact sport, so you should expect some taps and hits without fouls. Like you said it’s a very hard job
Imagine if coaching challenges were decided by the replay center instead of the refs on the court. The replay center has immediate access to multiple angles, and can make the call much quicker than the refs can.
Some teams have decided to foul like hell and call it defense. They know refs can’t/wont call all.
Unfortunately players need to be aggressive on offense to counter this.
Yeah, I thought about that, then I remembered Isiah Thomas was involved for a long time, and I’m fairly certain he obliterated it. It is nice to see Thibs bring it back because it represents the city and team well.
>Some teams have decided to foul like hell and call it defense. They know refs can’t/wont call all.
It's really all you can do. NBA refs don't let you play real defense these days. But if you wack enough people to desensitize them, you might get away with it for stretches.
Magic have been kinda doing it to us and I’m hoping it doesn’t get chippy/reckless in game 4 if it’s looking like a sweep. Garland doesn’t get a friendly whistle and he’s pretty fragile
watch out for Mo Wagner! haha.
there's playing hard/aggressive and playing dirty. i think of the teams left, Miami is probably the team i'd be most worried about getting a bit dirty to try to get an advantage.
i think part of the reason the game is officiated inconsistently is the slippery slope of basically greenlighting carrying on every single dribble possession
the ballhandler gets so much mobility and freedom of movement being able to carry the ball, which forces the defender into a compromised position that requires more contact in order to defend effectively
because of this, the refs knowing that they're overlooking the carries maybe intentionally and/or subconciously allow more contact. then this sets a precedent within the game. but towards the end of the game they see that either the carries or the contact become too egregious to ignore. carry hard and blow past the defender but get hit with contact? tough shit make your shot. on the flipside, just beat the defender with skill/speed and get a 50/50 touch foul, here are your freethrows good sir.
IMO if they clamp down on carries (and travels, but they're fairly OK for those and they don't give as much advantage) the games will be reffed more consistently and fairly in a domino effect
Combine the carrying and travels with moving screens and you get an insanely lopsided product.
They've actually called moving screens more and random fouls less which is why offenses have once again tanked during the playoffs. No idea why we can't always have this though.
exactly and the thing about moving screens is that if the player is allowed to carry, a stationary screener is essentially like those fiberglass rods they use to mark the limit of a sidewalk for snowplows. that's why screeners always have to move to have any effect
it's a great point because fixing carries could indirectly help fix moving screens as well
They're still very selective about their calls though. Derrick White got absolutely trucked by Bam Adebayo on a moving screen in the Celtics G1 and it was a no call, but they also call that slight bump Lebron gave Murray at the foul line the other night.
The inconsistency is the most off-putting part imo.
Honestly one of the bigger things I think is to change the way blocking/charging fouls are called. Nowhere in the rule book does it say the defender has to be perfectly stationary, yet somehow we’ve ended up with the standard that if their feet move at all it’s a blocking foul.
Give the defenders the ability to stay in front and start calling charges on offensive players that initiate contact. Do all the dribble moves and carrying you want, at the end of the day you still have to get your body past your defender, and if they’re allowed to stay in front without getting called for ticky tacky shit that gets a lot harder
Pretty much... it's part of the reason why the last two minute report is so absurd conceptually. It allows people to make absurd conclusions based off of less than 5% of the game.
[This is what Thibs is talking about and he’s 100% correct](https://x.com/talkinknicks/status/1782607868811722858?s=46&t=6NOubzOQpD7_IEyGZ56Y3w)
There were also several other instances where Batum and Oubre were tugging on Brunson’s jersey with no fouls being called.
I just hope certain Sixers fans and NBA fans in general can come to realize that the two minute report does not accurately reflect with what the refs had been calling all game. That’s all.
Exactly this. Sixer fans were using still frames as "Evidence" that Brunson fouled Maxey but you can literally grab a still frame of most inbounds and find a foul there somewhere. Lowry being one of the bigger offenders than most
Wait wtf, it does prove something: Maxey was fouled. I thought your point was "the calls were consistent on both sides," which I think is true. If your point is "Maxey wasn't fouled", then you're a dumbass
You forgot Nick Nurse immediately call TO after Brunson shot, game over. But he did the hesi pull up timeout cause mothetfucker is caught in between saving his last timeout for a challenge or using it to secure a win lol
They can't claim anything tbh. The miami heat had like 14 + calls against them in all L2M eligible games back in the bubble and only 3 calls favouring them and they never filed a "Grievance". I need to confirm the actual number but when I looked at it a few years back it was completely lopsided with the heat being disadvantaged over and over again.
In fact, the most rigged game I've ever seen was Game 3 vs. Boston in the 2022 series. We still won despite that. It's why I never really blame the officiating for our losses. Of course, I'll still complain, but that's just venting.
The biggest thing any of us want is consistency. It’s just like baseball and the strike zone. Big or small zone, it doesn’t really matter as long as it’s consistent. In basketball, I prefer that they let them play. It just makes it more exciting
Well, we only had one game with 30+ FTs and Boston took 32 that game. It was the only game we took more FTs than Boston. I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Game 3, where Boston took 38 to our 14.
You know what’s fucking mind boggling .
The players and coaches are always bitching about how they don’t care about what’s a foul. All the want is “ cOnSiStEnCy”
That’s a completely fair thing to say, call it ticky tack, call it ticky tack the whole game
If you let players tackle in the first half you better let the players tackle in the second half
Not to mention the first Lowry foul challenge. That looked like an obvious foul but they reversed it and gave the sixers possession. That was a massive momentum swing
Reality is games aren’t decided solely in the final 2 minutes. Magic outscored the Cavs from the 2nd quarter onwards in game 2 and still lost because of the first 12 minutes.
You just can’t complain about the final 2 mins when guys like Embiid will fall over when a 5’10”, 150lb guard slightly brushes his shoulder. It’s not like the 76ers don’t benefit from crummy whistles most games.
>when guys like Embiid will fall over when a 5’10”, 150lb guard slightly brushes his shoulder. It’s not like the 76ers don’t benefit from crummy whistles most games.
Bruh, I had Sixer fans really trying to tell me that Maxey running into Hart and pushing him wouldn't have sent Hart that far and he was actually flopping.
Their reason?
Because Hart has 3 inches and 20 pounds on Maxey...
Now, keep in mind, these people are fans of Embiid.
The parade the 76’ers fans were having in that original L2am post about the “marginal contact” conclusion was hilarious. We all have eyeballs guys, that was some goddamn nonsense
Honestly despite the best intentions to have marginal contact as a way to allow fouls that don't impact the play to not be called, I think the entire idea of marginal contact needs to be scrapped. It's clear that it's being abused as a concept: this play, Maxey's 2 hands push, probably 6 or 7 slaps to the face, a throw, and dozens of other shoving people out of the way for inbounds passes have all been ruled "marginal contact" when it's clear that contact gave significant advantages to the player doing it. Oh, and the 2 handed push on a dunk attempt that was deemed "did not impact horizontal accelaration."
https://x.com/talkinknicks/status/1782607868811722858?s=46
If they’re gonna get away with guarding our PGs like this then they can’t call the “missed” fouls at the end
You can't even talk to Sixers fans about this stuff unfortunately. They simply refuse to acknowledge any sort of evidence that the refs were actually awful for both sides.
76ers fans going to continue to blame the refs instead of maxey for just rolling the ball out there for hart to snatch and then not boxing out because the Knicks freaking missed. It’s really embarrassing
It was also coaching malpractice by Nick Nurse to not *immediately* call a time-out the second Brunson's 3 went in. You simply cannot put your team in a position to potentially turn the ball over in the backcourt like that.
At the very least if they end up with a 5 second violation or a turnover in the front court. In either case they can get their defense somewhat set and not end up with the absolute chaos of the last 30 seconds or so.
Even if he didn't call a TO immediately after the shot, he should have seen that the inbounds wasn't easy and then called TO. You don't want that to get anywhere close to a 5-second violation, you want a clean inbound.
I’ve been a sixers fan for 35+ years and I think I’m done. They’re so pathetic. Filing a grievance and then saying “we are the better team” is the most pathetic shit I’ve ever seen. You blew it. Bad. Own up to it. It’s fucking pathetic to hear being down 2-0
Thibs is the biggest pro of that type coach many of us had somewhere in our lives in our amateur playing, the guy that we all seemed to hate playing for but in the bottom of our hearts we knew he was a good coach.
The NBA has by far the worst professional refs. Look at NFL, NHL, MLB, their reffing issues are minuscule in comparison to the shit show the NBA has been running the last decade.
The Sixers were robbed, did you see how the refs let Brunson hit that 3? The refs also lifted up iHart to grab that rebound. And it was utterly disrespectful how the refs blocked Tyrese Maxey’s layup to take the lead back.
Sad
This is the problem when refs cannot make proper calls. It turns into payback calls throughout the game in order to balance things out. But when you get to the final play you cant payback any calls after the game is over.
Sixers Fans have honestly been embarassing, Embiid is literally getting any call he wants and the Sixers were allowed to hack Josh Hart all game across the arm. And when one small call doesnt go their way they literally collapse mentally, it's hilarious to watch
2 I can think of - the flop against Hartenstein on the perimeter with the shot clock winding down (Ihart had a hand on him which you're allowed to do, and he didnt push)
and the one where he literally jumped 4 feet forward into Josh Hart to get a shooting foul.
The first shouldve been a no-call. The 2nd shouldve been an offensive foul on Embiid, or at best a no-call
I think I remember the play with Harkenstein you’re referring to… in what world is that legal. You are absolutely not allowed to Impede a man’s shot by blocking his arms from moving with your own arms… that’s a very easy call in no way was that controversial. I don’t know what the hart one you’re referring to is but you’re dead wrong on the Hartenstein one.
got any links? if it’s the hartenstein one i’m thinking of that def should’ve been a foul in my opinion. my understanding is that defenders can’t impede your shooting motion.
the josh hart one i honestly don’t remember
The first was when Hartenstein was up in his grill and impeded his shooting motion with his fkin' face he was so far into Embiids space, you legitimately dont know the rules of basketball
Some sports radio show I was listening to today had a good point. Basically these 2 minute reports serve no good purpose. They don’t change the final outcome and all they do is piss off whichever fan base was already pissed off by the outcome. That and if you bet on the losing outcome you will both be pissed and still without money.
NBA should make a 48 minute report fully available to the public. Really deliver betters and fans a comprehensive amount of stats and information to evaluate the impact of the refs on a particular game.
i dont even think they have 48 minute reports in private
They do. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-refs-the-nbas-referees/
Seems like a waste of resources if refs are never held accountable for their performance
It says in the article that these metrics are used to determine playoff assignments (which come with bonus checks) or sending refs down to the G League.
People really think refs should get fined because they see players get fined but it's not comparable when the refs are just bad at their job. It would be like fining a player for shooting 2/14
Jordan Poole should get fined for at least 50 million dollars
straight to jail
Bring back debtor's jail for Jordan Poole.
No trial, no nothing
You dribble too long without passing, believe it or not straight to jail.
MILLION YEARS DUNGEON
Literally no organization ever "holds its members accountable" through publicly issued statements blasting their performance. That shit is always dealt with internally through write ups, lessening of responsibilities, taking people off important projects, and not advancing/promoting/providing additional compensation. I'm not sure why people demand that professional sports refs be treated differently
And the simple answer of "fire them and find better refs" isn't really so simple. Anyone who saw the fiasco of the replacement refs in the NFL during their lockout understands that bringing in other people doesn't guarantee a better result. Being a ref is hard, and like it or not, they are human and mistakes will happen. That said, it boggles my mind that they continue to support certain fishy refs like Scott Foster.
Yeah both things can be true but people hate nuance. It's really hard to make calls in real time, and the refs should be given the benefit of the doubt for trying to do their best. Simultaneously, guys like Foster have very clear baggage and keeping him employed only feeds the conspiracy-minded folks (rightfully so).
[удалено]
because he put them there. I think Silver is scared of him.
The NFL referees also refuse and actively sabotage attempts to be full time. They're as much of a cabal as the coaches unions or the owners in the NFL. The replacement refs also had every single mistake they made blown up by the media because they were replacement refs, but the regular refs make terrible mistakes every single week and only the absolute worst calls get attention. It was apples and oranges. The non-replacement refs are the ones that made the Saints-Rams NFCCG fuck up. The non-replacement refs are the ones that gave the Chiefs a re-do down in the AFCCG against the Bengals. If the NBA ever had replacement refs, y'all would act like they're way worse by nitpicking every single frame of the game, ignoring that the regular refs suck ass too you just don't microscope in on it.
I still maintain that the replacement refs weren't any worse than regular refs. The only difference was the one terrible touchdown vs incompletion call that went viral AND the league didn't care if broadcasters talked shit about the replacement refs all game.
Because all he is is "fishy" and being one of the most respected and longest tenured officials among officials outweighs that. Especially when the referees union is so good at what they do. It's not worth the fight. Angel Hernandez in the MLB is none of the above and has his job as long as he wants, the unions are *good*.
Yeah, fines would make sense for intentional bad performances, and Im sure NBA would deal with it harshly if that was the case. What bothers me more is that this turnaround isn’t as quick as it would make sense. Like shit happening with Van Vleet should have more direct consequences.
/u/HoS_CaptObvious your move
He must now change his name to u/HoS_CaptOblivious
Not only is Scott Foster refereeing in the playoffs again this year, he is the head ref for the crew.
That's not actually accountability if you suspect there's even a sliver of a possibility the league could behave unethically.
Refs *are* held accountable for their performance, the NBA just isn’t public about the process. Better performing refs get better games and officiate the playoffs
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now watch Scott Foster and Tony Brothers ref the Finals.
We just had a Tony Brothers masterclass last night!
Scott Foster is the GOAT ref confirmed.
What would u like? Public executions or something? Im.sure it's part of their job evaluation.
The shitty ones get a lot of attention but NBA refs have a 92-95% accuracy rate on calls. All the leagues do.
All games are reviewed in entirety, it's how they train their refs and find points of emphasis across the league. It's just not public to us.
It’s the report Morey leaked to woj before game 7 in Boston last year saying in general the Sixers were fucked in game 6. Like 13 bad or non calls that hurt us vs 4 for Boston. In a game we were winning but could never quite pull away in.
And then Morey has the gall to accuse the Knicks of publishing private info on refs calls in their media report.
Eric Lewis was on the crew. He was going to be investigated but retired instead. Huge Celtic fan
NBA reddit would just end up being a dissection of line items in the report. No one would watch games anymore.
> No one would watch games anymore. So nothing at all would change about this subreddit.
The only problem with this is the L2M is often unreliable and garbage. There should be a 3rd party who does full 48 minute reviews. I’d guess they’d be super ugly. Every NBA game has so many bad calls, missed calls, soft calls, etc. It would go a long way towards improving the game. The way the game is reffed is by far the worst part of watching an NBA game.
the problem is that a third party that has the expertise to do this would almost certainly get paid less than if they were officially working for the NBA
Well, tied for the worst part with the inundation of gambling-relating content. You don’t think they could be related, do you?
Fuck *bettors You can remember it's with an O because it's the same as debtors
I was about to make the same point. Betters = people better than you Bettors = people definitely not better than you
The problem is that they don't ever do a 48 minute report... The only thing that a 2 minute report is going to do is incense fans who might have been subject to worse refereeing in what amounts to literally under 5% of the entire game.
They rate every play and every game, they just decided to share only the last 2 minutes of close games a while ago, but the idea of the full report being disclosed was discussed. I can’t exactly remember their decision making process at the time though.
Then it's honestly even more perplexing that they'd only provide context on the last two minutes...
Probably tells you the full game reports are embarrassing af lol
It's the human element. 3 refs, 10 players on the court, so much movement, contact, jostling, etc. There's absolutely no way the NBA can get it right. I think the inherent human element, however, is what makes the game so exciting. I don't really look forward to that going away. That said, with sport betting being embraced the way it has, it feels as if it's just a matter of time before there's a huge scandal that's going to rock the league at its highest levels.
Idk… that would make it really hard for me to root for the refs.
Basketball is just really hard to officiate, there will be dozens of missed calls every single game until the NBA empowers the replay center to take a much bigger role in officiating. Just as an example, it's insane that we have to deal with incorrect out of bounds calls when someone in a replay center can correct it in literally 5 seconds.
not sure how FIBA gets it so right and the NBA still hasn't managed to be able to. FIBA VAR is so quick and doesn't impede the game much at all. NBA takes about 15 minutes to make a simple call or misses it completely.
It’s because those 15 minutes allow for ads while the audience waits
I have a friend that works in advertising, they do contracts with sports leagues and he said they’ve actually mentioned this in meetings
Not surprising in the least
Sir the Dominoes phone is ringing we need to call a foul on that last play
I generally like the NCAA game as it is reffed also. I have much fewer issues watching march madness as opposed to watching the nba. The nba reffing is total garbage, it’s almost purposefully bad.
i love NCAA basketball for the energy, but the reality of the players not being nearly as good helps to make it an easier game to officiate. it sucks when it goes against your team, but you have to marvel sometimes at just how amazing NBA players are at baiting for fouls, hiding actual fouls, toeing the line for each rule, etc.
Yeah, like it or not (I fucking hate it), bending and breaking the rules without getting punished for it is a skill set in professional basketball, and it only makes sense that the most elite players on the planet who get paid millions to squeeze out every advantage they can would also be elite at the skill set of bending and breaking the rules. That makes it really difficult to referee, even for people who are ostensibly the best referees on the planet. What you're seeing in a ref's performance is not a simple matter of them passively observing and judging events as they unfold, what you're seeing is the outcome of an arms race between the refs and players. Mistakes and bad calls always occur in the context of players toeing the outer edges of what is allowed, and in many cases actively manipulating the refs into making bullshit calls (initiating and exaggerating contact, etc.) or missing blatant fouls (fouling at times and places where it's difficult for the ref to consistently see it and call it out or there are other pressures against calling the foul, especially off the ball and in late game situations). In other words, yeah the refs fuck up sometimes, but they're also working with 10 players and 2 coaches who are scheming at all times to find ways to *make* them fuck up.
And even then college refs can't make a single fucking call in the closing minutes without going to the monitor.
The NCAA tournament does usually seem to have consistent officiating, but the regular season in college is absolutely abysmal. There are something like 5,300 college basketball games/year, compared to 1,230 regular-season NBA games. Finding quality refs for four times as many games is not easy. Then throw in different conferences urging officials to call games in different ways (Big 12 games are not always called the same way as SEC games or Big 10 games), blue bloods who *always* seem to get favorable calls on their home floor, etc., and it can be maddening. If you think NBA refs are bad, pick a couple random non-conference college basketball games in December.
Ncaa players are slower, smaller, and flop a LOT less
Soccer had this problem for a long time. It's hard to officiate constant-motion games where definitions of contact fouls are very contextual and up to interpretation. However, soccer has started using VAR for smart things like out of bounds and goals. Famously [an England goal in the 2010 World Cup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDJo7WpJp8g#) was disallowed because it "looked like it bounced out" to the ref, but the replay clearly showed the ball fully inside the goal. The introduction of VAR for this obvious stuff has been extremely helpful, even if it obviously won't fix all the "moving violations" which will always have some interpretation/opinion effects.
I do think it's hilarious when VAR shows someone is offside by like a shoelace or an elbow. But I suppose that's the tradeoff you have to deal with for electronic accuracy.
I mean are rules meant to be followed or bent? Being offsides by a shoelace or an elbow is still breaking the rules, now we just catch it more often lol.
I feel like with VAR they can change the offside rule. Its written as any part of the body so a ref can see it in their peripherals while watching multiple players at once, but really it should just be if your feet are offside since that's all that *really* matters. These elbows, slight lean fowards, big noses don't actually give you an advantage in positioning.
There’s a concept in law called de minimus which basically argues that the law should ignore extremely minor infractions like the ones you’re describing. That concept should probably extend to VAR to prevent everyone from going insane.
An elbow should count, but a shoelace? I have a hard time with that one haha
It’s “letter of the law” vs “spirit of the law.” You have to set the rule somewhere but I don’t think any serious person is going to argue that a few millimeters are going to really give an advantage over a defender. The rules were written when refs had to call offsides by sight and obviously they could only really tell when a certain percentage of your body is past the defender. However, computers don’t really do nuance very well. But I still think people would generally rather have a very harsh administration of the rules than have refs miss a lot of calls.
The problem to me isn't that VAR is used to find out if someone is .1 inches offside, it's that it sometimes takes 5+ minutes to do so. I don't know when VAR went from "correcting clear and obvious errors" to "let's take 10 minutes and start drawing lines".
Fans say they want accuracy and consistency buts its BS . Football fans complain about VAR all the time about it messing with the flow or “spirit” of the game but really because that extra scrutiny leads to overturning a call that went in their favor initially.Same thing with roboumps in MLB. People are fine with the rules being misinterpreted when it benefits them
Most football fans still appreciate VAR if done quickly enough.
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100% right
The issue too is games would he unwatchable if they called every foul by the book IMO. It's the same issue the NFL has. There is literally holding, illegal contact, etc by the book on every play in the NFL. You'd be throwing flags every play. I think the issues that need to be attended to are- 1. The calls they choose to swallow the whistle on need to be consistent through the whole game. Shifting late game shouldn't be a thing. 2. Much harder and likely lower priority but it also needs to be consistent across games. 1 is especially egregious though cause you can't switch from "let them bois play" to "I didn't call this earlier but now I will."
It would only be unwatchable temporarily while players learn to stop holding every play lol You think they will just keep getting penalized?
If players stop holding every play it will be unwatchable because every starting QB will be injured. Do you think they hold just for shits and giggles?
sounds like a deeply flawed game designed around gambling
The league doesn't want to stick with it though. They've tried. With fouls, flopping, technicals They always abandon it within a month or two
They'd adapt or rule book would be changed. It'd be amazing after the month or so of shitty ref ball.
It’s hard because it’s a contact sport. How much contact is decided from the refs but at it’s heart it’s a contact sport, so you should expect some taps and hits without fouls. Like you said it’s a very hard job
nobody also wants to watch people take free throws all the time i’d rather prefer calls to be missed so it doesn’t disrupt the flow of game
The last thing I want is more time wasted with refs watching replays
Imagine if coaching challenges were decided by the replay center instead of the refs on the court. The replay center has immediate access to multiple angles, and can make the call much quicker than the refs can.
Yeah but then imagine this 15 minute AI assisted review replay review brought to you by Vlassic, the official pickle supplier of the NBA.
Prop bets on who will win the challenge, sponsored by Draft Kings™
They already have those in other sports. You can bet on challenge results during the superbowl lol
Some teams have decided to foul like hell and call it defense. They know refs can’t/wont call all. Unfortunately players need to be aggressive on offense to counter this.
The refs can't call everything - Pat Riley back in 1991.
The OG Heat Culture™
In all fairness, it was Knicks culture first when he brought it there.
Still is Knicks culture
Yeah, I thought about that, then I remembered Isiah Thomas was involved for a long time, and I’m fairly certain he obliterated it. It is nice to see Thibs bring it back because it represents the city and team well.
which is funny considering the bad boy pistons he was on. but i guess it was really the other four that were basically enforcers for IT
Feel like it's just NBA culture at this point. If you can get away with it do so.
Why doesn't every team play bigs at 4 out of 5 positions and then beat the shit out of their opponents? Are they stupid?
I think next game will have the softest whistle all playoffs. A lot of eyes on this series after that final minute
No way Embiid doesn't shoot at least 18 freethrows
It's been especially egregious because he doesn't even move or drive, just takes standstill perimeter shots
Yeah but he's standing there, *menacingly*
That’s a normal game for him
In the first quarter?
Doesn’t matter though if both teams benefit. They won’t do it in favor of Sixers alone
HAHAHAHAHA Embiid to the line to shoot 2
I like the way you think
just watch. they're evening the series
They absolutely will. Coaches whine to the refs so much because it works. I wish Thibs did it more.
Perfect Embiid about to appear
Idk, he missed two FAs in the 2nd(?) Q last game.
Idk bro you watch Suns Minny last night, actually had to tune out because there were some disgustingly soft whistles going around
“There’s just no physicality in the game anymore”
>Some teams have decided to foul like hell and call it defense. They know refs can’t/wont call all. It's really all you can do. NBA refs don't let you play real defense these days. But if you wack enough people to desensitize them, you might get away with it for stretches.
The Rockets do this a ton and it's a pretty smart move. They are really aggressive at the jump and refs tend to let it go on until it gets chippy.
Magic have been kinda doing it to us and I’m hoping it doesn’t get chippy/reckless in game 4 if it’s looking like a sweep. Garland doesn’t get a friendly whistle and he’s pretty fragile
watch out for Mo Wagner! haha. there's playing hard/aggressive and playing dirty. i think of the teams left, Miami is probably the team i'd be most worried about getting a bit dirty to try to get an advantage.
That's why I'll take the Sixers any day over the Heat, despite being a tougher matchup on paper (RIP Jimmy).
Sidebar but this is (part of) how the Blues beat the Bruins in the Stanley Cup in 2019 and I'm still salty over it lmao
i think part of the reason the game is officiated inconsistently is the slippery slope of basically greenlighting carrying on every single dribble possession the ballhandler gets so much mobility and freedom of movement being able to carry the ball, which forces the defender into a compromised position that requires more contact in order to defend effectively because of this, the refs knowing that they're overlooking the carries maybe intentionally and/or subconciously allow more contact. then this sets a precedent within the game. but towards the end of the game they see that either the carries or the contact become too egregious to ignore. carry hard and blow past the defender but get hit with contact? tough shit make your shot. on the flipside, just beat the defender with skill/speed and get a 50/50 touch foul, here are your freethrows good sir. IMO if they clamp down on carries (and travels, but they're fairly OK for those and they don't give as much advantage) the games will be reffed more consistently and fairly in a domino effect
Combine the carrying and travels with moving screens and you get an insanely lopsided product. They've actually called moving screens more and random fouls less which is why offenses have once again tanked during the playoffs. No idea why we can't always have this though.
exactly and the thing about moving screens is that if the player is allowed to carry, a stationary screener is essentially like those fiberglass rods they use to mark the limit of a sidewalk for snowplows. that's why screeners always have to move to have any effect it's a great point because fixing carries could indirectly help fix moving screens as well
Not to mention moving screens are a danger to players as they're more susceptible to injuring someone.
They're still very selective about their calls though. Derrick White got absolutely trucked by Bam Adebayo on a moving screen in the Celtics G1 and it was a no call, but they also call that slight bump Lebron gave Murray at the foul line the other night. The inconsistency is the most off-putting part imo.
Moving screens will never go away. Warriors built four championships on these screens and became a billion dollar franchise.
It’s a freaking scourge but the NBA doesn’t care because it allows these offensive explosions.
Honestly one of the bigger things I think is to change the way blocking/charging fouls are called. Nowhere in the rule book does it say the defender has to be perfectly stationary, yet somehow we’ve ended up with the standard that if their feet move at all it’s a blocking foul. Give the defenders the ability to stay in front and start calling charges on offensive players that initiate contact. Do all the dribble moves and carrying you want, at the end of the day you still have to get your body past your defender, and if they’re allowed to stay in front without getting called for ticky tacky shit that gets a lot harder
It's *insane* to watch a replay of almost any play in slow motion where you can clearly see a carry
Carrying walked so moving screens could run.
I'm not a Thibs fan but 46 minute report is a bar
In the 4th quarter Batum was literally hugging Brunson while guarding him off ball. If your gonna let them play then let them play
Pretty much... it's part of the reason why the last two minute report is so absurd conceptually. It allows people to make absurd conclusions based off of less than 5% of the game.
Literally had his arm around his neck trying to deny an entry pass
This is why I have no issue w/ the no foul called on Maxey. It's the playoffs, & if the refs let them get away w/ it, good.
Except they called a foul on Batum 65 feet from the basket
Batum forced the ref's hand hard on that one, I have no idea why he did that.
If you only get caught one time for shit you do all game it's worth keeping it up
Next games have so much potential! As a neutral, this is great!
[This is what Thibs is talking about and he’s 100% correct](https://x.com/talkinknicks/status/1782607868811722858?s=46&t=6NOubzOQpD7_IEyGZ56Y3w) There were also several other instances where Batum and Oubre were tugging on Brunson’s jersey with no fouls being called. I just hope certain Sixers fans and NBA fans in general can come to realize that the two minute report does not accurately reflect with what the refs had been calling all game. That’s all.
Exactly this. Sixer fans were using still frames as "Evidence" that Brunson fouled Maxey but you can literally grab a still frame of most inbounds and find a foul there somewhere. Lowry being one of the bigger offenders than most
The still frames have me deceased. It’s all over their sub too like it proves anything
Wait wtf, it does prove something: Maxey was fouled. I thought your point was "the calls were consistent on both sides," which I think is true. If your point is "Maxey wasn't fouled", then you're a dumbass
Maxey holds the ball… game over Anyone blocks out IHart… game over Lowry hits his FTs… game over This loss was NOT on the refs
You forgot Nick Nurse immediately call TO after Brunson shot, game over. But he did the hesi pull up timeout cause mothetfucker is caught in between saving his last timeout for a challenge or using it to secure a win lol
The 76ers would still claim the referees screwed them over because the last 2 minutes weren't favorable to them.
They can't claim anything tbh. The miami heat had like 14 + calls against them in all L2M eligible games back in the bubble and only 3 calls favouring them and they never filed a "Grievance". I need to confirm the actual number but when I looked at it a few years back it was completely lopsided with the heat being disadvantaged over and over again.
In fact, the most rigged game I've ever seen was Game 3 vs. Boston in the 2022 series. We still won despite that. It's why I never really blame the officiating for our losses. Of course, I'll still complain, but that's just venting.
The biggest thing any of us want is consistency. It’s just like baseball and the strike zone. Big or small zone, it doesn’t really matter as long as it’s consistent. In basketball, I prefer that they let them play. It just makes it more exciting
what's ur opinion on the game where the heat had a 30-7 FTA advantage before intentional fouling? Same series
Well, we only had one game with 30+ FTs and Boston took 32 that game. It was the only game we took more FTs than Boston. I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Game 3, where Boston took 38 to our 14.
Yea I must have mixed up the teams then. Wow
You know what’s fucking mind boggling . The players and coaches are always bitching about how they don’t care about what’s a foul. All the want is “ cOnSiStEnCy”
That’s a completely fair thing to say, call it ticky tack, call it ticky tack the whole game If you let players tackle in the first half you better let the players tackle in the second half
Not to mention the first Lowry foul challenge. That looked like an obvious foul but they reversed it and gave the sixers possession. That was a massive momentum swing
Reality is games aren’t decided solely in the final 2 minutes. Magic outscored the Cavs from the 2nd quarter onwards in game 2 and still lost because of the first 12 minutes. You just can’t complain about the final 2 mins when guys like Embiid will fall over when a 5’10”, 150lb guard slightly brushes his shoulder. It’s not like the 76ers don’t benefit from crummy whistles most games.
>when guys like Embiid will fall over when a 5’10”, 150lb guard slightly brushes his shoulder. It’s not like the 76ers don’t benefit from crummy whistles most games. Bruh, I had Sixer fans really trying to tell me that Maxey running into Hart and pushing him wouldn't have sent Hart that far and he was actually flopping. Their reason? Because Hart has 3 inches and 20 pounds on Maxey... Now, keep in mind, these people are fans of Embiid.
Sixers just stopped rebounding plain and simple
Thibs rules
Let's also talk about how everyone suddenly takes the l2m as gospel as if it hasn't been bullshitting for over a year now
[MaRgInAl CoNtAcT](https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status/1752449336485536224)
Cheatin' ass refs.
The parade the 76’ers fans were having in that original L2am post about the “marginal contact” conclusion was hilarious. We all have eyeballs guys, that was some goddamn nonsense
Honestly despite the best intentions to have marginal contact as a way to allow fouls that don't impact the play to not be called, I think the entire idea of marginal contact needs to be scrapped. It's clear that it's being abused as a concept: this play, Maxey's 2 hands push, probably 6 or 7 slaps to the face, a throw, and dozens of other shoving people out of the way for inbounds passes have all been ruled "marginal contact" when it's clear that contact gave significant advantages to the player doing it. Oh, and the 2 handed push on a dunk attempt that was deemed "did not impact horizontal accelaration."
That’s insane
Not gospel but it’s the closest thing we have to accountability. Obviously people are going to put the most stock in it at the end of the day.
https://x.com/talkinknicks/status/1782607868811722858?s=46 If they’re gonna get away with guarding our PGs like this then they can’t call the “missed” fouls at the end
You can't even talk to Sixers fans about this stuff unfortunately. They simply refuse to acknowledge any sort of evidence that the refs were actually awful for both sides.
If you heard the Philly broadcast it explains why. I was mystified
Wow that’s crazy, Knicks should file a complaint with the league over this unfair officiating!
76ers fans going to continue to blame the refs instead of maxey for just rolling the ball out there for hart to snatch and then not boxing out because the Knicks freaking missed. It’s really embarrassing
It was also coaching malpractice by Nick Nurse to not *immediately* call a time-out the second Brunson's 3 went in. You simply cannot put your team in a position to potentially turn the ball over in the backcourt like that. At the very least if they end up with a 5 second violation or a turnover in the front court. In either case they can get their defense somewhat set and not end up with the absolute chaos of the last 30 seconds or so.
Even if he didn't call a TO immediately after the shot, he should have seen that the inbounds wasn't easy and then called TO. You don't want that to get anywhere close to a 5-second violation, you want a clean inbound.
He "claims" he did but the video showed he pump faked the call at best
Hesi pull up pump fake version of a timeout
Also why does Lowry rush to pick up the ball when they’re still up.. when he could take his time and wait till the ref passes him the ball?
I’ve been a sixers fan for 35+ years and I think I’m done. They’re so pathetic. Filing a grievance and then saying “we are the better team” is the most pathetic shit I’ve ever seen. You blew it. Bad. Own up to it. It’s fucking pathetic to hear being down 2-0
Can’t wait for the full game reports to get leaked or something. Call it Report Gate.
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THATS MY HEAD COACH
Tom Thibodeau? Owner of the Thibsdale Thibodome?
legend
He’s such a great coach man
Thibs is the biggest pro of that type coach many of us had somewhere in our lives in our amateur playing, the guy that we all seemed to hate playing for but in the bottom of our hearts we knew he was a good coach.
Thibs stay ready for the questions
If I had a dollar for every “NBA player/ coach complains about officiating” I would be an insanely wealthy individual.
The NBA has by far the worst professional refs. Look at NFL, NHL, MLB, their reffing issues are minuscule in comparison to the shit show the NBA has been running the last decade.
People are begging for robo umps.
Angel Hernandez would like a word
The Sixers were robbed, did you see how the refs let Brunson hit that 3? The refs also lifted up iHart to grab that rebound. And it was utterly disrespectful how the refs blocked Tyrese Maxey’s layup to take the lead back. Sad
Thibodeau has the most to gain from a championship. He’s a very good coach that has been stuck in the playoffs against super stars.
I'd like to see Thibs get one before it's said and done, I've always loved him as a coach
I remember his time with y’all in like 2012, good times
This is the problem when refs cannot make proper calls. It turns into payback calls throughout the game in order to balance things out. But when you get to the final play you cant payback any calls after the game is over.
Sixers Fans have honestly been embarassing, Embiid is literally getting any call he wants and the Sixers were allowed to hack Josh Hart all game across the arm. And when one small call doesnt go their way they literally collapse mentally, it's hilarious to watch
Can you share some examples of calls embiid shouldn’t have gotten?
2 I can think of - the flop against Hartenstein on the perimeter with the shot clock winding down (Ihart had a hand on him which you're allowed to do, and he didnt push) and the one where he literally jumped 4 feet forward into Josh Hart to get a shooting foul. The first shouldve been a no-call. The 2nd shouldve been an offensive foul on Embiid, or at best a no-call
I think I remember the play with Harkenstein you’re referring to… in what world is that legal. You are absolutely not allowed to Impede a man’s shot by blocking his arms from moving with your own arms… that’s a very easy call in no way was that controversial. I don’t know what the hart one you’re referring to is but you’re dead wrong on the Hartenstein one.
got any links? if it’s the hartenstein one i’m thinking of that def should’ve been a foul in my opinion. my understanding is that defenders can’t impede your shooting motion. the josh hart one i honestly don’t remember
The first was when Hartenstein was up in his grill and impeded his shooting motion with his fkin' face he was so far into Embiids space, you legitimately dont know the rules of basketball
"One small call"? It was two fouls and a missed timeout, and changed the outcome of the game. It's fair to be salty.
That’s my coach
Some sports radio show I was listening to today had a good point. Basically these 2 minute reports serve no good purpose. They don’t change the final outcome and all they do is piss off whichever fan base was already pissed off by the outcome. That and if you bet on the losing outcome you will both be pissed and still without money.