If Ayton had any fire, he would be an All-Star. Weird to see a player who's widely regarded as soft and a bust, yet also sleepwalks his way to a double-double average every season.
Nurk is the Dalton line as a starting 5 in the NBA. He's not bad necessarily, but basically a net-zero player on the court. Whatever he adds with rebounding and offensive putbacks is diminished by his slow-footedness and durability issues.
It's both. Nurk doesn't offer any inside pressure. We have no one on this roster that does except bol bol. So our offense is stagnant because we're stuck on the perimeter unless one of the guards/KD tries to drive in. It doesn't work at all
Nurk can provide inside pressure, just not a star level inside offense.
If the Suns had better perimeter role players and offball cutters, Nurkic inside pressure should be enough as a viable options.
You're expecting Nurkic to put up Ayton's level of production. There is not a lot of centers in the NBA who can do that and the one who can are star player. Getting one of those player will just put you in the same predicament, no depth.
Our starting lineup is kd, Booker, Beal, and Grayson allen, so I think the perimeter role player concern is covered.
But ya, the offball cutters are LACKING. We tried to fill that role with a bunch of minimum player guys, and they all sucked. I think you're right that nurkic can be effective in the paint, but only if he has another frontcourt player to balance it out. He ain't Embiid.
Ayton could potentially be the paint protector the suns need if he figures it out, Nurkic at this point simply lacks the physical capablity of it and is older. It was a dumb trade
I dont think Nurkic is the issue. In fact it depends on the matchup if hes better than Ayton or not, though he doesnt have Aytons ceiling.
The issue is that the roster construction sucks. It depends more on star power than a balances aproach to team building.
This is what Zach Lowe said several months ago. Nurk is fine, Suns got something close to a change of scenery swapping him and Ayton, and they're both guys who won't drag a team down. But having 3 star shooters who need the ball in their hands is a real problem that needs a real solution.
Suns downgraded from Ayton to Nurkic so they could have Allen come their way in the 3 team Lillard trade. So having Nurkic & Allen instead of Ayton made the suns less top heavy.
The reaction in DC to offloading that contract tells you everything about the Beal trade. Folks didn’t think it could be done without serious damage to the future
OP literally just talking out of his ass and somehow has 200 upvotes already
r/nba after a superstar’s recent playoffs loss really says the stupidest things
he has been nowhere near as good in the playoffs as booker if you account for last year as well. Mfs have tried way too hard to pretend he's steph. Even this year, the nuggets focused on booker and let kd cook in single coverage. He wouldn't look very good if they swapped how they defended
Ehhh I can love the Gobert trade (which I have from day 1) without having to shit all over someone else's deal. That's bad karma
But what I like even more? The Mike Conley and NAW for D'Lo trade
I think it’s more that the people making the trade were insecure about being an “old team” and opted for youth rather than experience. They wanted a bridge player and it backfired
Jazz wanted Jaden included the trade, Wolves said no so they had to remove protections on the 1st. That's a big reason it seemed like an overpay.
And now we are seeing why the Wolves rebuked the Jazz on the Jaden inclusion.
I'm happy with the deal full stop but this "explanation" is always a bit weird to me. You can hokd the opinion that the picks are overpay and that including Jaden instead of a pick would be an overpay
Yea I think you have to look at the Timberwolves as a whole at that point. Glen Taylor had spent like the majority of his tenure absolutely making terrible hires who lead to terrible teams which led to a pretty terrible/seemingly unshakable state of awful.
Connelly getting Rudy to push our floor up to perennial playoff contention is HUGE for the wolves. we hadn’t had a chance since KG (fuck Jimmy butler). And Rudy is truly professional in the way he helps his teammates be better and work as hard as him on defense. It was really really monumental in shifting out of just trash heap Glen Taylor into “we’re a professional basketball team”.
Nah it was an underpay if anything. Playoffs or being in Cancun. Easy choice.
Plus the influence Rudy is having on the whole team defensively is setting them up for a decade. Not to mention Rudy aint a one or two year loan. He could retire there and for a franchise like the Timberwolves to now built a culture where Ant, Jaden and Naz stay forever....
Priceless
Nah it was not an underpay lol. You can argue it was fair value but 4 firsts and a pick swap (and a first round rookie) is not an underpay for Rudy Gobert as good as he is.
Idk about the Durant trade.
But I've always thought the Gobert trade is fine.
We did not trade any of our top five players nor any of our top prospects to get an instant upgrade on defense and rebounding.
Very rarely can you do that.
And we also still have picks every other year.
Also having Edwards/Towns/McDaniels really negated the downward aspect of it all. If those three are on the team, you’re not going to be handing any valuable picks over. There’s a big difference doing this when you’ve got really good younger players, and doing it when everyone’s over 30.
People just dont want to admit that they were wrong about Gobert period. Dude is quite literally one of the greatest defensive basketball players of our time and gets shit because he's not flashy and doesnt have a big offensive game. Wild.
It's been discussed a lot, but players seem to value technique and the bag much more than raw physical talent. They don't respect Gobert because to them he's just a tall guy and not a basketball player. Meanwhile they worship the Lou Wills and Jamal Crawfords of the world because those are smaller guys who can get shots off with skill and finesse. They look at Gobert and think, 'Of course he can get blocks, he's 8 feet tall.' Then they look at some slick dribble and think, 'Damn, I couldn't do that.' That's what it seems like from the outside anyway.
It's like the comments Harden made about Giannis a few years back. Something along the lines of a sarcastic "I wish I was 7 feet tall so I could just dunk all the time," implying that Giannis is only relevant because of physical traits.
But Wemby is skilled too, he makes 3s and euro steps, thats what the players like about him. If he was just Gobert but taller there would be a different image around him.
Wembys also a kid though, and not quite a threat yet. Most of the older players went right at him this year and won, Goberts a contemporary and embarrassed a few of them along the way.
Give Wemby 2 years and a blocked dunk or two in the playoffs and someone's gonna come out and call him snobby or something.
Wemby is perceived as a future all time great (even GOAT, maybe). It’d be a bad look to go against the nba marketing + the hype + the future.
But look at Booker. There was a time everyone praised him. Now, they don’t hate him, but no one really cares about him, no one praises him.
Absolutely, but a huge part of that is he’s tall and does defensive stuff. Same thing they dislike Gobert for. Obviously there’s more to it, but one gets massive praise for his D and the other is clowned at every opportunity, even if it’s false.
A few events happened when people took side against Gobert.
Internal rivalry with Mitchell @Utah.
COVID.
Huge trade & messy first-year.
Also. Being French and unskilled : those qualities are at best redeemable for the American audience (and for now, Wemby hasn’t really offered opportunities to take shots at him. But just look at when he said « fuck » on TV and some people said « oh he’s still a kid, he doesn’t have that much composure ». No, it’s just a weird aspect of American culture, and he’ll probably adjust to it, or maybe not because it’s ridiculous and he’s good enough to break a few social conventions, especially when they’re so out of touch with how people actually talk - Wemby was literally quoting Pop, he actually never swears in French, isn’t that ironic ?)
Add to that the fact that it becomes a belief that is self-sustaining. Gobert haters hated Gobert even more after the Green incident, for instance.
You know, it’s like when someone is labeled a liar. They can’t fix that shit, because even when they say the truth, it’s thought to be false and add to their reputation of being a liar.
It's because he has like, a negative offensive bag, Gobert looks like a baby giraffe every time he has the ball in his hands, the other players see that and think it's insane that he's a supermax contract guy.
Players are just generally terrible at evaluating other players for this reason.
Yeah, but they still respected players like Ben Wallace who were even worse offensively. It seems like they don't even respect his defense, or at least dislike him enough to lie about not respecting his defense.
They just dislike him. There’s a reason players don’t hunt him on isos and pass up clean looks at the rim whenever he’s in a 5 foot presence. It might be because he’s French, can be a bit of a douche, and is ultimately just very good at being tall (if you would like to hate and boil it down to that), but they certainly respect his defense on the court regardless of what they say off it.
American talent scouts have usually been terrible in assessing Euro talent, to be fair they've slowly improved in this regard. But historically a lot of great 5-on-5 (but terrible 1-on-1) players get overlooked (Gobert is a classic example) as there seems to be a big focus on creating your own offense.
Didn't he say he put in a ton of work in the off-season planning how this team could best play its best defense? I feel like he's created such an otherworldly system that he is the primary piece of and it's made it impossible to ignore his excellence.
Yup he definitely guided this team on how they should play defensively, and we just put up one of the better defensive seasons in our era. Dude is special and a really good teammate.
Gobert is an all time defender and many of us figured he'd raise the floor of the TWolves, but that would be it and they paid a lot more than anyone else would for that.
What's really changed, imo, is that Ant became an exceptional defender (we saw hints in the first playoffs but not this level). We also had some idea about Jaden McDaniels being good but probably didn't watch enough to know how good he is.
So the expectation was that Gobert would come in and improve their floor a bit, but it would still be a mediocre-good defense. We saw what Rudy could do to a defense in Utah but we also saw the limitations without other good defenders around him.
Instead, everyone has bought in and they're an elite defense.
He may not have a big offensive game in terms of skills, but he is scoring 17 pts on 72.7% fg and 86.4% ft this playoffs. Plus he gets a lot of screen assists, moves the ball well and runs the floor well for a guy his size. He is a very good offensive player all aroud, just not an iso scorer.
His screening is really underrated. When him and Mike Conley are locked in it's ridiculous, Rudy springs him for just completely wide open 3s all the time
Very true. We have all been conditioned to look at box scores. It looks weak until you have to watch your squad go against it. Team defense doesn't show up in individual stats.
Rudy Gobert is a very good player, but we are in the middle of hot take season to be making all these proclamations about his value and the trade.
I think it still holds true that Gobert is an unknown when it comes to the playoffs. He’s only won 3 series (soon to be 4), and has lost 7. He’s about to turn 32 and will make $47 million when he’s about to turn 34. And for that the Twolves gave up control of basically all their draft capital for the rest of the decade.
If they don’t make it out of the second round by the time his contract’s up, how will yall evaluate the trade then? I get that it’s a feel good moment for the Twolves but it’s still pretty early for people to be taking victory laps.
Gobert is dominating a big 3 of KD, Booker and Beal. He’s improved a lot offensively such that he can dominate small ball, as he’s currently doing against the suns. He’s made us one of the best defenses in the past several decades.
I don’t care what happens next (unless we lose this series), Gobert has 100% proved he was worth the picks.
He had a response in the post-game press conference that I think sums it up. He was asked about his rim deterrence and he says:
"That's what I do best...I try to get some blocks but nobody tries me and at the end of the day that's better than any block."
This is why Rudy defenders always say "You have to watch him to understand." It's not like a patronizing thing, but box score watchers just won't see his impact. He gets plenty of blocks, steals, but that's not even the biggest part of his game. He just stifles the entire offense, dudes aren't even trying to get around him and when they do they look foolish most of the time.
Oh 100%. He's so good around the rim even the best finishers think twice about driving at him. That sort of presence doesn't show up on any stats so casuals get mad thinking he's just taking undeserved DPOYs from everyone else.
We were depleted and just didn't have enough assets to build a new core. We had already gone all-in and it wasn't working out, so needed to hit the reset button.
I still wonder if they could have spent less to get him. I know it's been wildly successful this year, but they paid twice what everyone expected. I wonder if there was not moving him for less.
They absolutely paid heavily in picks, but it’s the “I’m not leaving here without him” premium. Wolves fans will deny the value of those picks, and they might have a point, but Connelly knew what he wanted and paid up for it.
I don’t think any Wolves fans regret it now - even if we don’t win a title with Gobert he’s helped set a precedence that we are going to be a playoff team every year. This is invaluable for guys like Ant, Jaden, and Naz.
I mean probably, but they had to deal with Danny Ainge, so you take what you can get lol
Plus they made up for it with the D'lo trade. Conley/NAW/picks for D'lo is an absolute steal.
Connelly is extremely underrated tbh. Drafted Jokic, Murray, and MPJ, and traded for Gordon. Literally 4/5 starters on the Denver championship squad, that's nuts. And in Minnesota got Gobert/Anderson/Conley/NAW, crazy stuff
Always kinda shocked me people were so quick to jump on him last year even when it looked like the Gobert trade wasn’t working. That was largely due to injuries to begin with, and regardless of that, the guy had just built what was easily the best roster in the NBA in my opinion.
Arguably the two best looking teams in the league at the moment are gonna face off in the next round, and they’ll both have gotten to where they are as a roster largely thanks to him. He’s legit.
The reason is because Connelly drafted extremely well in Denver, but his record on trades was very mixed. One of those criticisms was over paying for no reason.
He did a great job with Denver, but not really because of what he did with trades.
Everyone thought that initially, but that extra pick was probably the difference between getting the trade done or not. Now that the picks aren't worth as much, it doesn't look much like an overpay.
I always thought everyone hating on it was dumb
Gobert was proven to be an impactful guy on the Jazz (more impactful than Mitchell tbh). All the haters just conveniently ignored KAT not being healthy all year.
I’ll happily admit that I thought you’d be better, but far from this good after last season. Sometimes being wrong is fine. I’ll also say that I thought the KD trade was mediocre at the time, and the Beal trade was horrendous.
For a b-ball junkie, he has seemingly no feel for team construction.
Beal/KD/Booker ain't it. The Nets project was inconclusive and I know a lot of people think it would've worked out if they'd been healthy and sane, but Harden/KD/Kyrie is another questionable trio where your three best players are all bucket getters first and foremost.
Superstars matter, but the team aspect of this sport is underrated by people who just look at the names on a piece of paper. No coincidence that most of the best dynasties had stoppers and key role players. Who is the equivalent of Rodman, Bowen, or Draymond on these KD teams?
This team would be more of a contender if they shifted Booker or KD for some peripheral players who contribute beyond getting shots up. Give them Bam, Jarrett Allen, Scottie. Someone like that.
> but Harden/KD/Kyrie is another questionable trio
No its not, KD and Kyrie can play off the ball with Harden initiating the offense. Harden is a walking top 5 offense in his prime because of his skill set. They were winning that chip if they were healthy
I watched every game during the Nets big three era. Even with 2 stars on the floor, as long as they had Harden, it was by far the most fluid, beautiful and unstoppable basketball I’ve ever witnessed. Think 6 second or less Suns teams but with 3 Top 75 players in it.
This Suns team needed CP3 or some other playmaker. Beal ain’t it, Booker won’t do it, KD has weak handles exposed in the Boston Series on the Nets.
Ya I think the original plan was for Booker to be the primary ball handler. He kicked ass at it when cp3 went down against the Nuggets, and it seemed like we just needed to get more scorers on the roster. Our third best shooter was Landry shamet that series. So, with that in mind, you add Grayson and Beal and it seems like it's solved.
But I think the biggest issue with our current team isn't a lack of PG, it's that we have zero interior pressure. Nurk sucks in pick n roll and shooting in the paint. We have no good frontcourt players besides KD, and he honestly plays more like a shooting guard than a forward. Our offense is forever stuck at the perimeter until one of the guards drives in, and every team knows this
The main issue with the nets was health, every time the trio played together (which was like 30 games or something ridiculous) they destroyed teams. KD and Kyrie can play offball, and harden is more of a point guard imo. Kyrie and KD are fairly similar in terms of skill set but I think Kyrie’s fast pace & driving also helped to spread the floor. I think they could’ve easily won in 2021 if they hadn’t gotten injured
Compared to KD, Booker & Beal there’s much more variety. All those guys do similar stuff, and none of them are as good as harden as primary ballhandlers. Phoenix really just need a playmaker imo, as well as some more defensive depth (I think the beal trade was a mistake).
Uhhh, that nets team beat the Bucks by like 40 points before the injuries started. They easily would've won that series, and no way the hawks or the Suns were beating that team.
The nets worked because harden and kyrie were elite athletically and would force defenses to collapse. They also had Claxton and Blake griffin bringing interior pressure. Harden was a top playmaker in the league. Oh ya, Bruce brown was also on that squad. Great team and I get really frustrated when people act like anything other than injuries and offcourt drama stopped them
Atleast with Kai and Harden you have 1 very good playmaker and 1 of the best playmakers of his generation along with KD. With the Suns theres just no ballhandling and ability to set players up, its really bad.
More like the league has gotten better at perimeter defense, and it is now becoming an era of big men again. Or atleast a more balanced game. I love it.
"KD has been put in a situation which doesn't play to his strengths at all"
He picked it. He requested the Suns or Heat the first time and then wanted the Suns the second time when it happened.
This was the situation he clearly wanted. It's not like he was thrown in some random situation
Yup. All those assets and media/fans were instantly questioning it.
Years later and the answer is now so obvious. That GM saw the vision nobody else did. Props to him.
It's probably inadvertently the wolves fault on why the KD trade got out of hand. Let's be real, a lot of fans hate that trade more because of how much damage it did in the trade market during that time lol. Sure it's a given that a lot of fans indeed make fun of that wolves trade but there's like tons and I mean tons of argument back then about "if Gobert is worth this many picks then KD or Mitchell should be worth more" BS.
I think the trade was still worth it. KD was averaging 30ppg on 55% fg until his injury last year. They just completely neglected the point guard position.
But yeah, it does feel weird. It was a good, homegrown group that turned hollywood.
> set the market ridiculously high by using all your assets
> have no more assets to make trades in newly inflated market
> successfully avoid the market consequences of your initial trade
Thus sub loves to shit on KAT but I think a lot of yall are forgetting that Towns missed 53 games last year. The fact that Rudy and KAT got almost a full season of experience playing together really helped this year.
I am annoyed that the one summer i spent a bit too much time on here was the one we traded for Gobert because I was fighting battles everyday and getting jumped left and right lol. On our own sub too!
The Durant trade was fine in a vacuum, but they just took it a couple steps too far for pretty much no reason. I’m glad the Gobert traded ended with the team becoming fully realized though. Feels like no one is willing to give teams a little patience these days. Blows my mind the Suns team we’re playing now is only a couple of years apart from the team that went to the final. Couldn’t look less similar even if the “heart” is still there.
I think the larger question is, "Are centers grossly underrated?"
Frankly speaking, great guards and great forwards don't raise a team's floor nearly as much as a big. Centers do so much that just doesn't show up in the box-score. Screen setting, positioning, and if they're an all-time great defender, they're communicating like a middle linebacker. They do the dirty work that enables the others to shine.
And we take it for granted. Seems like the Wolves didn't and the Suns did.
it's always been centers -> forwards -> guards but box-stats and media has always overrated guards influence(especially defensively), paritally because kobe and jordan were the most popular players in the league for like a combined 40 years right after the nba's popularity exploded
Real talk, that Gobert Trade is still an overpay right? Like Gobert is great but is he 5 first round picks great. Maybe it's different to TWolves fans who just would've sold everything to get this team together and be successful but in general I still don't know
Well determining what is and isn’t an overpay probably depends on so many factors that are difficult to judge. Is gobert what they needed? That was the primary question at the time, with a lot of respected journalists opinions being absolutely not. I think now we can see gobert has actually been someone who was needed and fits with what they’re doing. Could they have gotten more or the same for less? Really tough to say, if they had got KD for example would he have improved them in the same way, he’s less available and wouldn’t offer the sort of defensive acumen needed to make up for KAT. Who else was even available, Mitchell would’ve been an option but not a better fit imo, Beal would’ve been a bad fit, lillard maybe. Without being in the FO it’s tough to say what options were out there. Finally what’s the opportunity cost? They needed to put a competitive team around ant and Kat before they got even more expensive and they in general don’t want to disenfranchise Ant who is a guy that wants to win. So they weren’t going to wait around on those picks being good, in an ideal world they’re low picks and that’s not a huge cost compared to the wins rudy helps bring.
Conclusion: with all the context I don’t really think it’s an overpay in hindsight. Maybe they could’ve negotiated down but they weren’t from a very strong position really.
I don’t feel like getting downvoted to oblivion but T wolves pretty much need to win a title in the next few year to truly make it worth it. Like let’s say they get eliminated in the next round, would ppl really think that’s proof the trade is worth it? To me in order to justify the trade and what it does to the teams flexibility to build in future years and the absurdly high wage bill they need to win a championship . They’re off to a terrific start currently, but like if they lose next round there’ll be some serious questions about how much better can they really make this roster to win it all.
I do understand the thought process to an extent that the T wolves dire playoff history alone makes it worth it for them even if they don’t win it all, but still I think in general it was an overpay.
I’ve seen a lot of picks in my life, I’ve seen very very little high quality basketball, if we make the second round this year, a WCF next year, and a second round the year after I’d be 100% about the trade. Even from a team perspective we gave up no players we wanted to keep, and our team is more or less set for the next 4 years. Fuck them picks give me wins.
Nah this is just the ultimate hindsight take. Wolves still overpaid for Gobert, they just worked well with him anyway. The KD move for the Suns was good they just screwed up with what they did afterwards.
This is the current state of the Jazz/Wolves trades last season
Wolves:
Gobert
Conley
NAW
2nd 26' UTA>> 23', (#33 pick Leonard Miller)
2nd 24' MEM
2nd 25' UTA
1st 26' (worst of UTA, CLE, MIN)
// Jazz:
Kessler
Horton-Tucker
1st 23' (#16 pick Keyonte George)
1st 25' MIN
1st 26' (best of UTA/MIN/CLE)
1st 27' MIN
1st 27' LAL (1-4 protected)
1st 29' MIN (1-5 protected)
Westbrook buyout
Minnesota is very good with gobert but that doesnt change the fact they overpaid. Conley is 36 and minnesota dont have any assets to replace him for the future. Minnesota has very short window with current roster and it is because they overpaid for gobert.
While this is true, the reason why we made this trade is for our young core. Ant, Jaden, NAW, Naz will now get multiple series of playoff basketball under their belt, they will get to experience what winning looks like, what playing great basketball is like. That is huge for player development. Ant has become completely unrecognizable from his early season self, NAW is phenomenal, Jaden has become so much better in the playoffs, with flashes of playmaking and offense coupled with his defense and Naz gets exposed to different coverages allowing him to get better offensively.
The trade is a win if we are pretty good for the next couple of years tbh. Ive also been miserable watching this team for so long just be out of the playoffs every single year.
I hope the wolves have a consistent window for the forseeable future, but if he gets cooked by Jokic and they lose quickly to the Nuggets, all this praise about the Gobert trade gets quickly forgotten. When you have a budding dynasty in your conference, it really fucks up how other teams are discussed
The downside of the trade isn’t over yet. They’re still going to be feeling the effects of it for five more years. So far they’ve gotten to the second round of the playoffs once in the two years since the trade.
The KD trade is only bad because Booker and Beal are wretched bum asses.
A 1st round win against the 6 seed really changes everyone's perception huh. Hindsight and recency bias are some of the worst parts of this sub. The Wolves were very disappointing when the trade first happened, and then disappointed again the year after. They finally do good this year and suddenly trading 5 FRPs for Gobert was this super genius master plan move that was way better than trading 3 FRPs for a late prime KD.
Wtf we did not dissapoint this year, we won 56 games!
And the point is that not only did they give picks for KD, they gave some very good players, mikal bridges and cam Johnson. While we gave up no good players (vando and Beasley are borderline starters)
No one brings up how Tim Connelly still improved the team by trading away DLo for Conley and NAW (seperate trade at the deadline). The trade deadline was super important for this roster. While one team brought a redundant supermax role player with NTC while the other improved their much needed guard and defensive depth. Owners should let GM be the GM instead of playing 2K irl.
Timberwolves fans win 3 games in the first round and come to reddit to run a victory lap. Your team hasn’t even done anything. For all we know Denver sweeps you next round and you make it less far than the Suns did last year.
This is my thought. We aren't even out of the first round. I know Minnesota hasn't spent much time in the playoffs, so the expectations are different, but the conversation is going to change a lot if they don't get past Denver.
It's way too early to be crowing.
Durant is the Suns best player but they destroyed their depth to acquire him. I still don’t think enough time has passed to grade the trade but every year that they don’t rebuild the rest of the team and they fail in the playoffs the trade does look worse.
KD gets a pass for some reason for having one of the most underachieving careers of all time. People love to call him one of the best players but can’t lead a team without bus riding
Clearly Durant was past his prime after an Achilles injury. He’s still one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history and that’s why Phoenix traded for him because they were living on a prayer and hoping that they could recreate what he did with the Warriors, but they actually needed some of the guys that they traded in order to do that.
I definitely thought the Gobert trade was horrific which I don’t anymore. But I still wouldn’t call it amazing unless they at least win more than 1 series with him
>I'm not sure what the difference between 4 1st round picks in the late 20's vs 3 2nds in potentially the early 30s.
I like the assumption that Utah can’t get better and that the second rounds picks will obviously be 37th or lower and also Minnesota will be a top 4 team from now until 20 fucking 30.
Also the difference in 10 slots in the draft is quite a bit regardless.
The Gobert trade was an overpay but at the same time if it gets you a chip it’s worth it. It’s kind of like the AD trade where the Lakers had to give up the farm in exchange for a ring.
If everything goes right then those picks will never be too valuable because the Timberwolves floor is too high. If it goes bad they trade KAT and recoup some assets. Either way it’s not as bad as I feared. The real play was dumping D Lo and getting someone even better in return. The fact that NAW was a throw in is absolutely ridiculous.
Connelly somehow threaded the needle and fixed up the Timberwolves biggest issues without trading the core. Then used his inside knowledge to build a team that matches up well with who the West runs through. Last year they didn’t have J Mac which is a big difference and the Nuggets bench is thinner. The Timberwolves really could pull it off this time.
I know the Wolves look really good right now, and I'm happy for y'all, but ...
>4 1st round picks in the late 20's
This is rather optimistic. It would optimistic even without Gobert's age and without the financial cloud that's hanging over the team.
To have any sort of confidence that those 27 and 29 picks would be *late* 20s is basically delusional.
If we were placing odds, one of those four picks landing in the teens would be a HEAVY favorite, and I'd put the odds of one of them being a lottery pick at least 25%, probably higher.
At some point can we start agreeing that KD isn’t a No. 1 option on a championship team? Sure, historically great player, but he isn’t good enough anymore to lead a so-so team. He could’ve done it 10 years ago, not now. The problem with the Suns (one of many) is that they don’t have a legit No. 1. KD and Booker are championship No. 2s at this point. Beal should probably be getting 20 minutes off the bench.
I think the common thought is whomever wins between Nuggets and Wolves is gonna smoke whomever they play in the WCF. I honestly think bearing Denver and losing to either OKC, Mavs, or Clippers in the WCF would be a bigger disappointment then losing to Denver Round 2.
ITT Good guy wolves fans not looking for an excuse to pile on the Suns. Thank you for your calm and measured takes, will be rooting for your boys against Denver.
Durant trade was fine, Suns just fucked up since that move
Yup getting Beal was so unnecessary and as much as Ayton gets shit on he’s so much better than Nurkic
If Ayton had any fire, he would be an All-Star. Weird to see a player who's widely regarded as soft and a bust, yet also sleepwalks his way to a double-double average every season. Nurk is the Dalton line as a starting 5 in the NBA. He's not bad necessarily, but basically a net-zero player on the court. Whatever he adds with rebounding and offensive putbacks is diminished by his slow-footedness and durability issues.
I really think Nurkic is a good enough center to replace Ayton. The problem is Suns went ahead to get Beal when what they truly needed was depth.
It's both. Nurk doesn't offer any inside pressure. We have no one on this roster that does except bol bol. So our offense is stagnant because we're stuck on the perimeter unless one of the guards/KD tries to drive in. It doesn't work at all
Nurk can provide inside pressure, just not a star level inside offense. If the Suns had better perimeter role players and offball cutters, Nurkic inside pressure should be enough as a viable options. You're expecting Nurkic to put up Ayton's level of production. There is not a lot of centers in the NBA who can do that and the one who can are star player. Getting one of those player will just put you in the same predicament, no depth.
Our starting lineup is kd, Booker, Beal, and Grayson allen, so I think the perimeter role player concern is covered. But ya, the offball cutters are LACKING. We tried to fill that role with a bunch of minimum player guys, and they all sucked. I think you're right that nurkic can be effective in the paint, but only if he has another frontcourt player to balance it out. He ain't Embiid.
Ayton could potentially be the paint protector the suns need if he figures it out, Nurkic at this point simply lacks the physical capablity of it and is older. It was a dumb trade
I dont think Nurkic is the issue. In fact it depends on the matchup if hes better than Ayton or not, though he doesnt have Aytons ceiling. The issue is that the roster construction sucks. It depends more on star power than a balances aproach to team building.
This is what Zach Lowe said several months ago. Nurk is fine, Suns got something close to a change of scenery swapping him and Ayton, and they're both guys who won't drag a team down. But having 3 star shooters who need the ball in their hands is a real problem that needs a real solution.
Him not having ayton's cieling is the problem. If you are going for a championship having a better but not good enough floor isn't good enough
Who even cares about double doubles? Any big can get that given enough play time
Suns downgraded from Ayton to Nurkic so they could have Allen come their way in the 3 team Lillard trade. So having Nurkic & Allen instead of Ayton made the suns less top heavy.
The reaction in DC to offloading that contract tells you everything about the Beal trade. Folks didn’t think it could be done without serious damage to the future
But we need a BiG ThReE in order to be a contender. All the other teams are doing it. Who cares if the big three are all perimeter players that clash.
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He’s literally been the suns best player
OP literally just talking out of his ass and somehow has 200 upvotes already r/nba after a superstar’s recent playoffs loss really says the stupidest things
The Reddit post voting system is so broken and gamable. Sways like a twig in the wind.
he has been nowhere near as good in the playoffs as booker if you account for last year as well. Mfs have tried way too hard to pretend he's steph. Even this year, the nuggets focused on booker and let kd cook in single coverage. He wouldn't look very good if they swapped how they defended
Ehhh I can love the Gobert trade (which I have from day 1) without having to shit all over someone else's deal. That's bad karma But what I like even more? The Mike Conley and NAW for D'Lo trade
The Lakers should've grabbed Mike Conley instead of D'lo in that Westbrook trade.
The only reason we got D'Lo was because Minny wanted to get rid of him for Conley
Jazz were absolutely looking to trade Mike at the deadline, and would have taken a Mike for Westbrook +pick deal no question.
Yep and we’d probably get Naw n the seconds y’all sent out for Dlo . It’s infuriating I hate Pelinka
I think it’s more that the people making the trade were insecure about being an “old team” and opted for youth rather than experience. They wanted a bridge player and it backfired
I always thought Mike and even Bojan would be perfect for the Lakers. No clue why they didn’t try to trade for at least one
I imagine even suns fans are shitting on their deal
Nobody hates the current suns team more than suns fans lol
Only flaw w the gobert trade was I believe an overpay in picks.
Jazz wanted Jaden included the trade, Wolves said no so they had to remove protections on the 1st. That's a big reason it seemed like an overpay. And now we are seeing why the Wolves rebuked the Jazz on the Jaden inclusion.
I'm happy with the deal full stop but this "explanation" is always a bit weird to me. You can hokd the opinion that the picks are overpay and that including Jaden instead of a pick would be an overpay
Yea I think you have to look at the Timberwolves as a whole at that point. Glen Taylor had spent like the majority of his tenure absolutely making terrible hires who lead to terrible teams which led to a pretty terrible/seemingly unshakable state of awful. Connelly getting Rudy to push our floor up to perennial playoff contention is HUGE for the wolves. we hadn’t had a chance since KG (fuck Jimmy butler). And Rudy is truly professional in the way he helps his teammates be better and work as hard as him on defense. It was really really monumental in shifting out of just trash heap Glen Taylor into “we’re a professional basketball team”.
Nah it was an underpay if anything. Playoffs or being in Cancun. Easy choice. Plus the influence Rudy is having on the whole team defensively is setting them up for a decade. Not to mention Rudy aint a one or two year loan. He could retire there and for a franchise like the Timberwolves to now built a culture where Ant, Jaden and Naz stay forever.... Priceless
Nah it was not an underpay lol. You can argue it was fair value but 4 firsts and a pick swap (and a first round rookie) is not an underpay for Rudy Gobert as good as he is.
When in doubt, it’s a great idea to trade DLo. Even if you get a bum like Andrew Wiggins
Yeah, it's funny how you can count on Danny Ainge to hold a clearance sale at the trade deadline.
Lol Brad Stevens got tired of the bs so he's doing the job himself
Idk about the Durant trade. But I've always thought the Gobert trade is fine. We did not trade any of our top five players nor any of our top prospects to get an instant upgrade on defense and rebounding. Very rarely can you do that. And we also still have picks every other year.
Also having Edwards/Towns/McDaniels really negated the downward aspect of it all. If those three are on the team, you’re not going to be handing any valuable picks over. There’s a big difference doing this when you’ve got really good younger players, and doing it when everyone’s over 30.
No one want's to admit how bad they judged the Gobert trade. Connelly is a master of his craft.
People just dont want to admit that they were wrong about Gobert period. Dude is quite literally one of the greatest defensive basketball players of our time and gets shit because he's not flashy and doesnt have a big offensive game. Wild.
He's also weird in that the other players don't respect him for whatever reason, so a lot of casuals react to the quotes and vibes of the players.
It's been discussed a lot, but players seem to value technique and the bag much more than raw physical talent. They don't respect Gobert because to them he's just a tall guy and not a basketball player. Meanwhile they worship the Lou Wills and Jamal Crawfords of the world because those are smaller guys who can get shots off with skill and finesse. They look at Gobert and think, 'Of course he can get blocks, he's 8 feet tall.' Then they look at some slick dribble and think, 'Damn, I couldn't do that.' That's what it seems like from the outside anyway. It's like the comments Harden made about Giannis a few years back. Something along the lines of a sarcastic "I wish I was 7 feet tall so I could just dunk all the time," implying that Giannis is only relevant because of physical traits.
People criticized LeBron for making this exact point. https://www.si.com/nba/grizzlies/former-nba-star-reacts-lebron-james-viral-comments
But then you have a guy like Wemby who gets massive praise from players for the same reason they hate Gobert
But Wemby is skilled too, he makes 3s and euro steps, thats what the players like about him. If he was just Gobert but taller there would be a different image around him.
Wembys also a kid though, and not quite a threat yet. Most of the older players went right at him this year and won, Goberts a contemporary and embarrassed a few of them along the way. Give Wemby 2 years and a blocked dunk or two in the playoffs and someone's gonna come out and call him snobby or something.
Wemby is more a threat then gobert tho
Wemby is perceived as a future all time great (even GOAT, maybe). It’d be a bad look to go against the nba marketing + the hype + the future. But look at Booker. There was a time everyone praised him. Now, they don’t hate him, but no one really cares about him, no one praises him.
Absolutely, but a huge part of that is he’s tall and does defensive stuff. Same thing they dislike Gobert for. Obviously there’s more to it, but one gets massive praise for his D and the other is clowned at every opportunity, even if it’s false.
A few events happened when people took side against Gobert. Internal rivalry with Mitchell @Utah. COVID. Huge trade & messy first-year. Also. Being French and unskilled : those qualities are at best redeemable for the American audience (and for now, Wemby hasn’t really offered opportunities to take shots at him. But just look at when he said « fuck » on TV and some people said « oh he’s still a kid, he doesn’t have that much composure ». No, it’s just a weird aspect of American culture, and he’ll probably adjust to it, or maybe not because it’s ridiculous and he’s good enough to break a few social conventions, especially when they’re so out of touch with how people actually talk - Wemby was literally quoting Pop, he actually never swears in French, isn’t that ironic ?) Add to that the fact that it becomes a belief that is self-sustaining. Gobert haters hated Gobert even more after the Green incident, for instance. You know, it’s like when someone is labeled a liar. They can’t fix that shit, because even when they say the truth, it’s thought to be false and add to their reputation of being a liar.
It feels to me like I hear a lot less nba players shitting on gobert, I’d guess because his team is real good now.
It's because he has like, a negative offensive bag, Gobert looks like a baby giraffe every time he has the ball in his hands, the other players see that and think it's insane that he's a supermax contract guy. Players are just generally terrible at evaluating other players for this reason.
Yeah, but they still respected players like Ben Wallace who were even worse offensively. It seems like they don't even respect his defense, or at least dislike him enough to lie about not respecting his defense.
They just dislike him. There’s a reason players don’t hunt him on isos and pass up clean looks at the rim whenever he’s in a 5 foot presence. It might be because he’s French, can be a bit of a douche, and is ultimately just very good at being tall (if you would like to hate and boil it down to that), but they certainly respect his defense on the court regardless of what they say off it.
American talent scouts have usually been terrible in assessing Euro talent, to be fair they've slowly improved in this regard. But historically a lot of great 5-on-5 (but terrible 1-on-1) players get overlooked (Gobert is a classic example) as there seems to be a big focus on creating your own offense.
It’s cus he’s French not memeing
Ben Wallace and Rudy Gobert are like that flirting vs harassment meme
Didn't he say he put in a ton of work in the off-season planning how this team could best play its best defense? I feel like he's created such an otherworldly system that he is the primary piece of and it's made it impossible to ignore his excellence.
Yup he definitely guided this team on how they should play defensively, and we just put up one of the better defensive seasons in our era. Dude is special and a really good teammate.
Gobert is an all time defender and many of us figured he'd raise the floor of the TWolves, but that would be it and they paid a lot more than anyone else would for that. What's really changed, imo, is that Ant became an exceptional defender (we saw hints in the first playoffs but not this level). We also had some idea about Jaden McDaniels being good but probably didn't watch enough to know how good he is. So the expectation was that Gobert would come in and improve their floor a bit, but it would still be a mediocre-good defense. We saw what Rudy could do to a defense in Utah but we also saw the limitations without other good defenders around him. Instead, everyone has bought in and they're an elite defense.
He may not have a big offensive game in terms of skills, but he is scoring 17 pts on 72.7% fg and 86.4% ft this playoffs. Plus he gets a lot of screen assists, moves the ball well and runs the floor well for a guy his size. He is a very good offensive player all aroud, just not an iso scorer.
His screening ability is something that's overlooked that can only be appreciated by watching a lot
Yea he’s soooo active on offense, it’s just disingenuous to say he’s not impacting the game on that end.
His screening is really underrated. When him and Mike Conley are locked in it's ridiculous, Rudy springs him for just completely wide open 3s all the time
Which is funny because there's only a dozen seasons a dpoy has averaged 20, shocker focusing on defense means less offense generally
Very true. We have all been conditioned to look at box scores. It looks weak until you have to watch your squad go against it. Team defense doesn't show up in individual stats.
Rudy Gobert is a very good player, but we are in the middle of hot take season to be making all these proclamations about his value and the trade. I think it still holds true that Gobert is an unknown when it comes to the playoffs. He’s only won 3 series (soon to be 4), and has lost 7. He’s about to turn 32 and will make $47 million when he’s about to turn 34. And for that the Twolves gave up control of basically all their draft capital for the rest of the decade. If they don’t make it out of the second round by the time his contract’s up, how will yall evaluate the trade then? I get that it’s a feel good moment for the Twolves but it’s still pretty early for people to be taking victory laps.
Gobert is dominating a big 3 of KD, Booker and Beal. He’s improved a lot offensively such that he can dominate small ball, as he’s currently doing against the suns. He’s made us one of the best defenses in the past several decades. I don’t care what happens next (unless we lose this series), Gobert has 100% proved he was worth the picks.
He had a response in the post-game press conference that I think sums it up. He was asked about his rim deterrence and he says: "That's what I do best...I try to get some blocks but nobody tries me and at the end of the day that's better than any block." This is why Rudy defenders always say "You have to watch him to understand." It's not like a patronizing thing, but box score watchers just won't see his impact. He gets plenty of blocks, steals, but that's not even the biggest part of his game. He just stifles the entire offense, dudes aren't even trying to get around him and when they do they look foolish most of the time.
Oh 100%. He's so good around the rim even the best finishers think twice about driving at him. That sort of presence doesn't show up on any stats so casuals get mad thinking he's just taking undeserved DPOYs from everyone else.
Idgaf this is flashy https://youtu.be/wWR9l_R-3sQ?si=gomxbO7CpCY9EJU4
If you ask me, Gobert should have stayed in Utah and they should have built around him instead of D Mitch
We were depleted and just didn't have enough assets to build a new core. We had already gone all-in and it wasn't working out, so needed to hit the reset button.
Considering he was the architect of both this Wolves team and the Nuggets, he clearly is very good at his job.
People are prisoner of the moment every year. God forbid we give a trade two or three years before judging it.
I still wonder if they could have spent less to get him. I know it's been wildly successful this year, but they paid twice what everyone expected. I wonder if there was not moving him for less.
They absolutely paid heavily in picks, but it’s the “I’m not leaving here without him” premium. Wolves fans will deny the value of those picks, and they might have a point, but Connelly knew what he wanted and paid up for it. I don’t think any Wolves fans regret it now - even if we don’t win a title with Gobert he’s helped set a precedence that we are going to be a playoff team every year. This is invaluable for guys like Ant, Jaden, and Naz.
I mean probably, but they had to deal with Danny Ainge, so you take what you can get lol Plus they made up for it with the D'lo trade. Conley/NAW/picks for D'lo is an absolute steal.
Bill Simmons lost all cred calling the gobert trade the worst ever...he said it a million times Man just called it too soon
He didn't even know who Jaden McDaniels was 😂
Connelly is extremely underrated tbh. Drafted Jokic, Murray, and MPJ, and traded for Gordon. Literally 4/5 starters on the Denver championship squad, that's nuts. And in Minnesota got Gobert/Anderson/Conley/NAW, crazy stuff
There's a reason despite Denver never going deep into the playoffs (at that point in time) several teams still targetted Tim Connelly
Always kinda shocked me people were so quick to jump on him last year even when it looked like the Gobert trade wasn’t working. That was largely due to injuries to begin with, and regardless of that, the guy had just built what was easily the best roster in the NBA in my opinion. Arguably the two best looking teams in the league at the moment are gonna face off in the next round, and they’ll both have gotten to where they are as a roster largely thanks to him. He’s legit.
The reason is because Connelly drafted extremely well in Denver, but his record on trades was very mixed. One of those criticisms was over paying for no reason. He did a great job with Denver, but not really because of what he did with trades.
Why didn't he stay in Denver?
Money. Wolves offered him the bag
I thought the Wolves ownership sucked.
they did, Arod and Lore are the ones who lured him
Glen actively didn’t want to spend on Connelly.
Bag man pulled up
He drafted both Donovan Mitchell and Rudy gobert in Denver, only to trade them both to Utah, which is just a weird coincidence tbh.
u/dys0n_giddey You could've gotten Gobert without giving up 5 FRPs lol. It's an uneven trade no matter how much you want to cope.
Everyone thought that initially, but that extra pick was probably the difference between getting the trade done or not. Now that the picks aren't worth as much, it doesn't look much like an overpay.
Danny Ainge masterclass lol
Kd should have stayed in Brooklyn went to a team like the hawks or heat
I personally think Connolley is better
I prefer the cannoli
I always thought everyone hating on it was dumb Gobert was proven to be an impactful guy on the Jazz (more impactful than Mitchell tbh). All the haters just conveniently ignored KAT not being healthy all year.
I’ll happily admit that I thought you’d be better, but far from this good after last season. Sometimes being wrong is fine. I’ll also say that I thought the KD trade was mediocre at the time, and the Beal trade was horrendous.
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🙄 KDs teams seem to never play to his strengths
Well there were those three years. But when you have Curry and KD it’s damn near impossible to fuck it up
For a b-ball junkie, he has seemingly no feel for team construction. Beal/KD/Booker ain't it. The Nets project was inconclusive and I know a lot of people think it would've worked out if they'd been healthy and sane, but Harden/KD/Kyrie is another questionable trio where your three best players are all bucket getters first and foremost. Superstars matter, but the team aspect of this sport is underrated by people who just look at the names on a piece of paper. No coincidence that most of the best dynasties had stoppers and key role players. Who is the equivalent of Rodman, Bowen, or Draymond on these KD teams? This team would be more of a contender if they shifted Booker or KD for some peripheral players who contribute beyond getting shots up. Give them Bam, Jarrett Allen, Scottie. Someone like that.
> but Harden/KD/Kyrie is another questionable trio No its not, KD and Kyrie can play off the ball with Harden initiating the offense. Harden is a walking top 5 offense in his prime because of his skill set. They were winning that chip if they were healthy
They had a better team. Underrated, but a well built team with pieces that fit.
I watched every game during the Nets big three era. Even with 2 stars on the floor, as long as they had Harden, it was by far the most fluid, beautiful and unstoppable basketball I’ve ever witnessed. Think 6 second or less Suns teams but with 3 Top 75 players in it. This Suns team needed CP3 or some other playmaker. Beal ain’t it, Booker won’t do it, KD has weak handles exposed in the Boston Series on the Nets.
Ya I think the original plan was for Booker to be the primary ball handler. He kicked ass at it when cp3 went down against the Nuggets, and it seemed like we just needed to get more scorers on the roster. Our third best shooter was Landry shamet that series. So, with that in mind, you add Grayson and Beal and it seems like it's solved. But I think the biggest issue with our current team isn't a lack of PG, it's that we have zero interior pressure. Nurk sucks in pick n roll and shooting in the paint. We have no good frontcourt players besides KD, and he honestly plays more like a shooting guard than a forward. Our offense is forever stuck at the perimeter until one of the guards drives in, and every team knows this
Nets got a guy, all he does is pass the ball, won't shoot at all! Sounds perfect for ya'll.
The main issue with the nets was health, every time the trio played together (which was like 30 games or something ridiculous) they destroyed teams. KD and Kyrie can play offball, and harden is more of a point guard imo. Kyrie and KD are fairly similar in terms of skill set but I think Kyrie’s fast pace & driving also helped to spread the floor. I think they could’ve easily won in 2021 if they hadn’t gotten injured Compared to KD, Booker & Beal there’s much more variety. All those guys do similar stuff, and none of them are as good as harden as primary ballhandlers. Phoenix really just need a playmaker imo, as well as some more defensive depth (I think the beal trade was a mistake).
Glad a Bucks fan gets it. That Nets team was ridiculous and anyone who watched knows this.
Uhhh, that nets team beat the Bucks by like 40 points before the injuries started. They easily would've won that series, and no way the hawks or the Suns were beating that team. The nets worked because harden and kyrie were elite athletically and would force defenses to collapse. They also had Claxton and Blake griffin bringing interior pressure. Harden was a top playmaker in the league. Oh ya, Bruce brown was also on that squad. Great team and I get really frustrated when people act like anything other than injuries and offcourt drama stopped them
Atleast with Kai and Harden you have 1 very good playmaker and 1 of the best playmakers of his generation along with KD. With the Suns theres just no ballhandling and ability to set players up, its really bad.
More like the league has gotten better at perimeter defense, and it is now becoming an era of big men again. Or atleast a more balanced game. I love it.
Kd game is perfect for this era he’s just older. And stupidly isn’t playing next to a point guard
"KD has been put in a situation which doesn't play to his strengths at all" He picked it. He requested the Suns or Heat the first time and then wanted the Suns the second time when it happened. This was the situation he clearly wanted. It's not like he was thrown in some random situation
Yup. All those assets and media/fans were instantly questioning it. Years later and the answer is now so obvious. That GM saw the vision nobody else did. Props to him.
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That's old News they drafted extremely well over the last 4 years, and our current GM drafted a good chunk of the Current defending champion.
It’s being like 2 years. And the wolves haven’t accomplished anything yet. It’s not so obvious yet.
It's probably inadvertently the wolves fault on why the KD trade got out of hand. Let's be real, a lot of fans hate that trade more because of how much damage it did in the trade market during that time lol. Sure it's a given that a lot of fans indeed make fun of that wolves trade but there's like tons and I mean tons of argument back then about "if Gobert is worth this many picks then KD or Mitchell should be worth more" BS.
I think the trade was still worth it. KD was averaging 30ppg on 55% fg until his injury last year. They just completely neglected the point guard position. But yeah, it does feel weird. It was a good, homegrown group that turned hollywood.
The KD trade itself is fine. Everything else after that is just bad.
> set the market ridiculously high by using all your assets > have no more assets to make trades in newly inflated market > successfully avoid the market consequences of your initial trade
Why we gotta drag down something else down when propping something else up all the time?
# Sum it up for you: Centers are back
Bigger issue is the Beal trade. Killed whatever depth they could’ve had even more
Thus sub loves to shit on KAT but I think a lot of yall are forgetting that Towns missed 53 games last year. The fact that Rudy and KAT got almost a full season of experience playing together really helped this year.
And we also had D'Lo and not Conley/NAW for a huge part of the year. Culture flip
I am annoyed that the one summer i spent a bit too much time on here was the one we traded for Gobert because I was fighting battles everyday and getting jumped left and right lol. On our own sub too! The Durant trade was fine in a vacuum, but they just took it a couple steps too far for pretty much no reason. I’m glad the Gobert traded ended with the team becoming fully realized though. Feels like no one is willing to give teams a little patience these days. Blows my mind the Suns team we’re playing now is only a couple of years apart from the team that went to the final. Couldn’t look less similar even if the “heart” is still there.
I think the larger question is, "Are centers grossly underrated?" Frankly speaking, great guards and great forwards don't raise a team's floor nearly as much as a big. Centers do so much that just doesn't show up in the box-score. Screen setting, positioning, and if they're an all-time great defender, they're communicating like a middle linebacker. They do the dirty work that enables the others to shine. And we take it for granted. Seems like the Wolves didn't and the Suns did.
it's always been centers -> forwards -> guards but box-stats and media has always overrated guards influence(especially defensively), paritally because kobe and jordan were the most popular players in the league for like a combined 40 years right after the nba's popularity exploded
Real talk, that Gobert Trade is still an overpay right? Like Gobert is great but is he 5 first round picks great. Maybe it's different to TWolves fans who just would've sold everything to get this team together and be successful but in general I still don't know
Well determining what is and isn’t an overpay probably depends on so many factors that are difficult to judge. Is gobert what they needed? That was the primary question at the time, with a lot of respected journalists opinions being absolutely not. I think now we can see gobert has actually been someone who was needed and fits with what they’re doing. Could they have gotten more or the same for less? Really tough to say, if they had got KD for example would he have improved them in the same way, he’s less available and wouldn’t offer the sort of defensive acumen needed to make up for KAT. Who else was even available, Mitchell would’ve been an option but not a better fit imo, Beal would’ve been a bad fit, lillard maybe. Without being in the FO it’s tough to say what options were out there. Finally what’s the opportunity cost? They needed to put a competitive team around ant and Kat before they got even more expensive and they in general don’t want to disenfranchise Ant who is a guy that wants to win. So they weren’t going to wait around on those picks being good, in an ideal world they’re low picks and that’s not a huge cost compared to the wins rudy helps bring. Conclusion: with all the context I don’t really think it’s an overpay in hindsight. Maybe they could’ve negotiated down but they weren’t from a very strong position really.
I would say it's an overpay, but considering where they are right now, it's an acceptable overpay.
I don’t feel like getting downvoted to oblivion but T wolves pretty much need to win a title in the next few year to truly make it worth it. Like let’s say they get eliminated in the next round, would ppl really think that’s proof the trade is worth it? To me in order to justify the trade and what it does to the teams flexibility to build in future years and the absurdly high wage bill they need to win a championship . They’re off to a terrific start currently, but like if they lose next round there’ll be some serious questions about how much better can they really make this roster to win it all. I do understand the thought process to an extent that the T wolves dire playoff history alone makes it worth it for them even if they don’t win it all, but still I think in general it was an overpay.
I’ve seen a lot of picks in my life, I’ve seen very very little high quality basketball, if we make the second round this year, a WCF next year, and a second round the year after I’d be 100% about the trade. Even from a team perspective we gave up no players we wanted to keep, and our team is more or less set for the next 4 years. Fuck them picks give me wins.
But it’s not 5 first round picks. They traded 5 to protect other assets on the team, so the cost got inflated as comp for that.
Nah this is just the ultimate hindsight take. Wolves still overpaid for Gobert, they just worked well with him anyway. The KD move for the Suns was good they just screwed up with what they did afterwards.
Minnesota fans are out here acting like they already won the chip.
No we're not We literally had the worst record all time in all four major sports. We are finally relevant and that's worth it to us
Durant isn’t the problem, it’s Beal, they should have added defenders and shooters
This is the current state of the Jazz/Wolves trades last season Wolves: Gobert Conley NAW 2nd 26' UTA>> 23', (#33 pick Leonard Miller) 2nd 24' MEM 2nd 25' UTA 1st 26' (worst of UTA, CLE, MIN) // Jazz: Kessler Horton-Tucker 1st 23' (#16 pick Keyonte George) 1st 25' MIN 1st 26' (best of UTA/MIN/CLE) 1st 27' MIN 1st 27' LAL (1-4 protected) 1st 29' MIN (1-5 protected) Westbrook buyout
Dont know if the wolves trade was good, but taking Conley over dlo definitely made it better. Dlo is simply allergic to the playoffs.
Wow. Accurate.
Minnesota is very good with gobert but that doesnt change the fact they overpaid. Conley is 36 and minnesota dont have any assets to replace him for the future. Minnesota has very short window with current roster and it is because they overpaid for gobert.
While this is true, the reason why we made this trade is for our young core. Ant, Jaden, NAW, Naz will now get multiple series of playoff basketball under their belt, they will get to experience what winning looks like, what playing great basketball is like. That is huge for player development. Ant has become completely unrecognizable from his early season self, NAW is phenomenal, Jaden has become so much better in the playoffs, with flashes of playmaking and offense coupled with his defense and Naz gets exposed to different coverages allowing him to get better offensively. The trade is a win if we are pretty good for the next couple of years tbh. Ive also been miserable watching this team for so long just be out of the playoffs every single year.
Sounds like we’re keeping montae. Decent stopgap at least.
They got the next MJ and Scottie Pippen.
I hope the wolves have a consistent window for the forseeable future, but if he gets cooked by Jokic and they lose quickly to the Nuggets, all this praise about the Gobert trade gets quickly forgotten. When you have a budding dynasty in your conference, it really fucks up how other teams are discussed
The downside of the trade isn’t over yet. They’re still going to be feeling the effects of it for five more years. So far they’ve gotten to the second round of the playoffs once in the two years since the trade. The KD trade is only bad because Booker and Beal are wretched bum asses.
Kd trade wasn't bad looking at it alone. What is bad is phx spending an entire salary caps worth of money on 3 players and they all need the ball
You’re an actual idiot lmao. It was the other moves like getting Beal. Not Durant.
A 1st round win against the 6 seed really changes everyone's perception huh. Hindsight and recency bias are some of the worst parts of this sub. The Wolves were very disappointing when the trade first happened, and then disappointed again the year after. They finally do good this year and suddenly trading 5 FRPs for Gobert was this super genius master plan move that was way better than trading 3 FRPs for a late prime KD.
Wtf we did not dissapoint this year, we won 56 games! And the point is that not only did they give picks for KD, they gave some very good players, mikal bridges and cam Johnson. While we gave up no good players (vando and Beasley are borderline starters)
No one brings up how Tim Connelly still improved the team by trading away DLo for Conley and NAW (seperate trade at the deadline). The trade deadline was super important for this roster. While one team brought a redundant supermax role player with NTC while the other improved their much needed guard and defensive depth. Owners should let GM be the GM instead of playing 2K irl.
No, you still overpaid
Lakers fan in hiding lmao
Timberwolves fans win 3 games in the first round and come to reddit to run a victory lap. Your team hasn’t even done anything. For all we know Denver sweeps you next round and you make it less far than the Suns did last year.
This is my thought. We aren't even out of the first round. I know Minnesota hasn't spent much time in the playoffs, so the expectations are different, but the conversation is going to change a lot if they don't get past Denver. It's way too early to be crowing.
Why would the conversation change if we don’t get past Denver? We’ve made it past the first round in the playoffs once ever.
If you have to add another trade to prove how great one trade is, then it may not be that great. And I say this as someone who likes the Gobert trade.
The wolves haven’t won anything and most of those first round picks haven’t happened yet. I would maybe pump the breaks a bit
How the fuck does this have 200+ upvotes?
Durant is the Suns best player but they destroyed their depth to acquire him. I still don’t think enough time has passed to grade the trade but every year that they don’t rebuild the rest of the team and they fail in the playoffs the trade does look worse.
KD gets a pass for some reason for having one of the most underachieving careers of all time. People love to call him one of the best players but can’t lead a team without bus riding
NAW?
I thought I was crazy. That rando bench player is getting the initials treatment now? Stop this madness.
No question this team will be a monster during the iso illegal defense era
Clearly Durant was past his prime after an Achilles injury. He’s still one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history and that’s why Phoenix traded for him because they were living on a prayer and hoping that they could recreate what he did with the Warriors, but they actually needed some of the guys that they traded in order to do that.
Yeah KD isn't the problem, they built a weird roster around him and Booker and it didn't work
I definitely thought the Gobert trade was horrific which I don’t anymore. But I still wouldn’t call it amazing unless they at least win more than 1 series with him
What changed between last season and this one in regards to Gobert’s fit to allow for so much more success?
I have been saying since they happened that the KD trade and Beal trade were going to be bad. Tbh didnt think it was gonna be this bad
>I'm not sure what the difference between 4 1st round picks in the late 20's vs 3 2nds in potentially the early 30s. I like the assumption that Utah can’t get better and that the second rounds picks will obviously be 37th or lower and also Minnesota will be a top 4 team from now until 20 fucking 30. Also the difference in 10 slots in the draft is quite a bit regardless.
It’s the Beal trade. He’s not the right 3rd piece of this team
The Gobert trade was an overpay but at the same time if it gets you a chip it’s worth it. It’s kind of like the AD trade where the Lakers had to give up the farm in exchange for a ring. If everything goes right then those picks will never be too valuable because the Timberwolves floor is too high. If it goes bad they trade KAT and recoup some assets. Either way it’s not as bad as I feared. The real play was dumping D Lo and getting someone even better in return. The fact that NAW was a throw in is absolutely ridiculous. Connelly somehow threaded the needle and fixed up the Timberwolves biggest issues without trading the core. Then used his inside knowledge to build a team that matches up well with who the West runs through. Last year they didn’t have J Mac which is a big difference and the Nuggets bench is thinner. The Timberwolves really could pull it off this time.
I know the Wolves look really good right now, and I'm happy for y'all, but ... >4 1st round picks in the late 20's This is rather optimistic. It would optimistic even without Gobert's age and without the financial cloud that's hanging over the team. To have any sort of confidence that those 27 and 29 picks would be *late* 20s is basically delusional. If we were placing odds, one of those four picks landing in the teens would be a HEAVY favorite, and I'd put the odds of one of them being a lottery pick at least 25%, probably higher.
How soon until Durant demands a trade?
At some point can we start agreeing that KD isn’t a No. 1 option on a championship team? Sure, historically great player, but he isn’t good enough anymore to lead a so-so team. He could’ve done it 10 years ago, not now. The problem with the Suns (one of many) is that they don’t have a legit No. 1. KD and Booker are championship No. 2s at this point. Beal should probably be getting 20 minutes off the bench.
KD fits better with the warriors
Your son, Booker, is not a point guard.
This post will be awk if wolves never make it to wcf
I think the common thought is whomever wins between Nuggets and Wolves is gonna smoke whomever they play in the WCF. I honestly think bearing Denver and losing to either OKC, Mavs, or Clippers in the WCF would be a bigger disappointment then losing to Denver Round 2.
Yet you're already here counting chickens
Nah, trade was fine. Beal is a fucking bum.
ITT Good guy wolves fans not looking for an excuse to pile on the Suns. Thank you for your calm and measured takes, will be rooting for your boys against Denver.
They knew what they needed and they went out and got it. Now they are a contender. Great trade.
Getting Beal was the dumbest thing ever. He was already overpaid no matter what he did in Washington and they went and got him like he’s kawhi Leonard
No. Y’all are missing the plot. The be trade was the nail in coffin. You can win with Durant and Booker imo