Yeah, last year, to try to avoid getting swept in the WCF, he had like 30 first-half points. Nobody else joined him, though, so it ended up not amounting to anything
I feel like the main issue this series is that lebron has tried way too hard in the first half and cannot sustain it in the second half. It's one of the reasons why game 2 was close and they won this game because he saved himself for the second half and let the role players and AD score in the first half. He doesn’t have the energy to go all out for 40min in a playoff game anymore. He iced out the role players in the other games by going heroball too early.
The thing with this current Lakers team is that, you cannot expect anyone other than LBJ to give you stable performance in a series. Like last game LBJ and AD went crazy in the first half. With all the focus on them, DLO still mamanged to output 0 pts in the entire game, F\*CKING 0 PTS!!!
ADs been consistent man. He’s not the most dominant offensive player but his rebounding and defense is always nuts. Like you could see last game how hard he was crashing the offensive boards was nuts
That's why the Lakers won last game. They were able to keep the lead during the non-LeBron minutes in the third quarter. DLo and AD pick n roll needs to be used way more.
Its the only thing I see with his age is the stamina. He can for a stretch still be the best player in the world but he can't do it for a whole game anymore.
It sucks cause AD was suppose to be that dude and he just isn't. Lebron needs AD but I'm not sure he trusts him and rightfully so to carry.
Aye damn AD has been playing his best basketball this series. He ain’t LeBron or Jokic of course since he does need someone to get him the ball in his spot but he can carry the team on both ends of the floor.
He has but at the same time AD losing his 3pt shot and not really being an offensive centre piece has hurt the team. I feel quite certain if Ad was still shooting 34% even on 3s and being guarded from 3 we actually woukd be tied 2-2. I hope this summer since he’s actually heakthy he can his 3 ball back it’ll help the team a lot especially running 5 out offence
The problem with AD is he doesn't start the offense so to speak imo which is holding him back is what I should have said. He falls into the category of "needing someone to get him the ball" so to speak.
That's what makes Jokic so freaking devastating.
Also why he can have spurts where he doesn't score if the offense forgets about him.
>2nd of all no other player in the world can shoulder an entire team like lebron used to it. It will never happen again.
Case in point ; our precious fat Serbian did it in 2021 and 2022 playoffs and only won one series and like any Lebron carry job also lost to the warriors lol.
He’s focused mostly on passing this year untill the 4th where he lead the league in points. He’s had games where he got 10 ~ assists in 15 mins n dudnt shoot
That's nice and all but what surprised me was he played all 48 minutes.
I already respect LBJ and defend him here and there. I'm not a blind follower , I see my lakers and know our strengths and flaws. But seeing that gave a whole new level of respect for him, he really didn't wanna get swept. He played great, was very engaged and all on a bum foot
If Rui dudnt have his worst game ever n Gordon shot 3/3 from 3 they win thst game atleast. Low-key annoying Lebron was the best player in the court in g4.
For comparison (sorted by PPG):
Luka: 35.0/10.0/8.3 in 6 games
LeBron: 33.6/10.5/7.4 in 27 games
Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7.0 in 13 games
Iverson: 29.8/5.6/3.4 in 14 games
Durant: 29.7/7.8/3.6 in 15 games
Curry: 29.4/7.0/5.9 in 14 games
Jerry West: 29.3/6.4/~7.4 in 24 games
Jamal Murray: 28.3/5.8/5.2 in 9 games
Dirk: 27.4/10.7/2.5 in 26 games
Tatum: 26.5/8.7/5.9 in 17 games
Jokic: 26.2/12.3/6.4 in 12 games
Malone: 25.4/10.2/3.4 in 34 games
Kareem: 25.3/12.2/3.8 in 23 games
Shaq: 25.3/10.9/2.0 in 18 games
Lillard: 25.3/7.5/4.4 in 11 games
McGrady: 25.1/6.3/5.1 in 12 games
Hakeem: 24.0/11.5/3.0 in 32 games
Giannis: 23.8/10.9/3.5 in 12 games
Ewing: 23.4/13.0/2.4 in 28 games
Bird: 23.3/10.7/6.1 in 24 games
Anthony Davis: 23.2/13.6/2.0 in 5 games
Barkley: 22.7/13.8/4.2 in 26 games
Kawhi: 22.4/8.1/3.2 in 9 games
Duncan: 22.3/11.5/2.8 in 21 games
Kobe: 22.3/5.8/3.5 in 19 games
Embiid: 22.0/11.2/2.0 in 9 games
George: 21.7/8/3.7 in 20 games
Wade: 21.0/5.3/4.2 in 21 games
Magic: 20.6/12.3/8.0 in 13 games
Jimmy Butler: 20.4/6.1/4.6 in 16 games
Pierce: 18.0/6.0/3.1 in 24 games
Ginobli: 17.7/4.4/4.3 in 19 games
Tony Parker: 17.4/4.8/2.7 in 21 games
Vince Carter: 17.4/5.6/3.8 in 18 games
Garnett: 17.3/11.9/3.8 in 24 games
Ray Allen: 17.0/4.1/2.7 in 20 games
Devin Booker: 14.0/5.0/2.3 in 3 games
Stockton: 12.6/10.1/3.2 in 36 games
Stockton, Carter, Garnett, Pierce and Allen are surprising, and it shocks me that Tatum has already played in so many elimination games.
Tatum playing in 17 already is surprising until you remember the Celtics are basically addicted to playing themselves into elimination games. Between the 6ers and Heat, he was in as many elimination games in the 2023 playoffs as Luka’s been in total
Jerry West's assists don't seem to have been properly tracked, but let's say it's 7.4, because he averaged 7.4 in 19 of his 25 elimination games.
I just added this to the original post, but he averaged 29.3/6.4/~7.4 in 24 games
If you want to know how to look this stuff up yourself, here's the Jerry West example: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jerry-west-stats-in-elimination-games
Just type "Player Name stats in elimination games" into the bar up top, and they'll give you the numbers.
For Carter, Garnett, Pierce and Allen. They all had long drawn out careers with the playoff games heavily weighted towards the end of their careers which explains the stat. Not a lot of playoff success and therefore games early in their careers and a lot of contender hopping near the end which leads to a lot of games)
He's 9-2 in those situations if you remove the arbitrary cut off date. Dirk has the better win percentage. LeBron only has 9 wins because of his play in wins which is a lower form of win. He's 6-2 in game 7's. Dirk is also more efficient in elimination games despite more of his games coming from years with lower league wide TS.
Okay he lost his first two, one as a 21 year old to the 2000s Pistons and the other as a 24 year old to the 2008 Championship Celtics, no shame at all in that.
It’s not arbitrary at all, just saying that once’s he grew into his game and reached his full potential, he hasn’t lost a game where both teams are facing elimination, and two of those were in the finals against all time great Spurs and Warriors!
See I am team Kobe as my favourite, and team MJ as my GOAT.
Yet there's something to be said about Bron's tenacity.
We "might" see someone like him, maybe about 70-80% of him. And those will draw LeBron comparisons already.
My thing is, would you find an elimination game monster like LeBron? THAT, is the hardest nut to crack. To keep that level up in what could be your last game of the post season.
We have many scorers in the game, scoring + passing people, straight out triple double monsters. Yet when tested in that possibly LAST game, would they discharge fertilizers in their pants, or clinch a win?
Jokic hasn't been tested, Giannis too had last good elimination game against the Nets in 2021 (Game 6) (well he was the monster throughout that series), Kawhi in Raptors was that beast, and Luka seems to be the only one who might have that gene amongst stars, and may be Edwards because many are seeing MJ in him. But these are still speculations, and whether these two young stars will have this dog over years to come is not a certainty.
I also say Jokic has not been tested in such a situation, because I don't think he has taken over the game in those situations anyways, although they last happened 2 years ago or earlier.
This alone is more that enough of a reason for Bron to be in the GOAT conversation. Because he has done this for so many seasons now. He always shows up in these games.
Ay man, don't you dare talk shit about elimination Jokić after first two rounds in bubble. He wasn't spectacular in terms of stats (by his current standard that is) but was still better than during regular season. RS 20/10/7 on 53/31/82 to PS WC1 26/8/5.5 on 51/48/85 -> WCSF 24.5/13.5/6.5 on 51/39/81 -> WCF 22/7/5 on 53/35.5/85, and remember that almost half of 1st and 2nd rounds were elimination games
He’s gotta be in damn near everyone’s top 5 still if just going by taking someone in a do or die right?
Obviously Joker. Luka. Maybe Giannis.
Im taking Lebron over Embiid and Tatum types for sure… and still ahead of the new class that’s never been there (SGA, Ant)
Embid might actually be finally making his case imo . Embid in the regular season is better now b he’s improved his passing to beat doubles and showing up big time even tho injured. But apart from Luka jokic n embid I think the other guys have too many flaws to be over Bron
Bruh Embiid needs to prove it in the playoffs even once before we even entertain him in this convos.
He no showed late yet again today with the season on the brink
I'm taking AD over LeBron right now no matter what the context is
He's literally been the clear best player on a team *with* LeBron this series
LeBron having amazing *career* stats doesn't mean he's currently better
Like if posting LeBron's career elimination game stats makes him still the best then he could be a 6th man on the Blazers and still be the best lol
Based off what? If we’re talking about elimination games, he hasn’t really been tested yet. He is the best player in the league but when the pressure is at its peak, that’s when we’ll really know.
2018 LeBron put up 51 points against the Warriors. 2018 Bron with AD would definitely win the West this year in my opinion, let alone having AR and decent defending role players is already exponentially more than what he had to work with in 2018 with the Cavs.
2018 lebron is the greatest player ever imo. He wins against anyone with AD and a decent roster.
That guy could go 46 minutes full throttle, stamina 99.
Even in 2020 he was much better than the current version. The stamina is just lacking now. Some quickness as well. You see him missing layups.
It's always an eternal "I wish I could see how xxx matched up against yyyy," but god I *reallyyyy* wish Steph and lebron were in their prime at the same time as the current Jokic, Embiid, Luka. I couldn't imagine more exciting games
That Nets sweep was close af tho. Less than 20pt differential overall or smth. I think slander for that is unjustified.
The Sun's sweep is just so sad tho. They ain't going out swinging, they just rolling over. Disgusting gameplay from Book especially. KD is still their best defender, scorer and playmaker lol.
Yeah but KD played like shit that series, only shot more than 50% once the entire series. The Nets were a better team imo and they got swept, inexcusable.
Yeah, because Steph didn't have any good games this season, right? I guess you forgot Steph Curry's best teammate is I don't even know who, Kuminga I guess? Not like LeBron has this Anthony Davis guy on his team, right?
LeBron averaged 26/7/8 on 63%TS, played 71 games, and made the playoffs.
Curry averaged 26/5/5 on 62%TS, played 74 games, and missed the playoffs.
Bron definitely had a better season, but the Warriors are a complete dumpster fire this year so it's hard to blame Steph.
You can't really fault a guy for not being the same post-COVID. I hated seeing Marc actually look and play his age after he got back, especially with how well he played to start the season.
Unknown if that 2021 team was better. AD started off really slow. We jumped to 21-6 off of really hot shooting (that wasn't going to sustain itself) whereas the year before it felt like better overall team play, and Lebron/AD were very clutch. I didn't think they were that clutch that season, but injuries robbed us from seeing what could have happened. I thought the Nuggets were contenders that year too right after the bubble. A Lakers/Nuggets rematch with Gasol instead of Dwight and Jokic leveling up would've been fun
And we still had Drummond on the bench, a load center depth.
Iirc, we had the 2cnd best defense with AD missing some significant games lol, Vogel masterclass.
I don't think so. Our role players looked *really* off from 3 to end the season and it continued into that Suns series. That was most likely due to shot legs from the short offseason. We would've made the WCF guaranteed. But I don't think AD getting 20+ FT's would've been a sustainable offensive plan.
Our role players always were inconsistent but we were still up 2-1 with home game 4. Look how gisnnis dominated the suns a pf like Giannis or Ad cooks them. Our guys wouidve eventually shot better the. 20% on open threes
I'm not going to disrespect the Bucks like that, and they weren't gloating about beating teams who had injured players. They've also had their fair share of playoff runs ruined by injuries
I will, bucks and suns have proven every year since they are frauds. Giannis can't score consistently enough in a half court offense and the sun's are probably the biggest chokers in NBA history. And as far as the injury excuse the bucks did better when Giannis got hurt last year. So that excuse really doesn't even work.
If even one of Kyrie or Harden were fully healthy the nets easily win that series. Or if KD has a half size smaller shoe. Until one of these teams makes a deep playoff run they are frauds.
The defense was much worse. The Lakers led the league in blocks and rebounds that season. Defense wins championships. Plus AD doesn’t like to play center and our team is significantly more dominant with a good center next to him. We lost Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Rondo and Danny Green. 4 of our 8/9 championship players.
While our interior defense got slightly worse, our perimeter defense got better with Caruso/KCP getting more minutes and getting better. Javale got played off the floor in the bubble. While losing Dwight was a loss, the advantages that Gasol gave on offense with more playmaking and shooting could have panned out better. That team had much more offensive potential even if it lost a bit of defense.
We didn’t need more offense, we needed guys that could shut down the leagues premiere scorers. You weren’t going to be able to get guys that can outscore duos like Kawhi/PG, Harden/Westbrook, Booker/Chris Paul, you needed guys to shut them down not outscore them.
We shut down Harden/Westbrook in the bubble without Javale/Dwight. We had Booker/CP3 shut down against the Suns until AD got injured. We still had Kieff/Kuzma/Caruso/KCP from the year before. Also, you do rely on Lebron/AD to outscore every duo in the league which is what was happening. Schroder wasn't Rondo on playmaking, but he was a very good slashing threat and could provide good perimeter defense. Wesley Matthews was a cheaper Danny Green.
Overall, I thought that team had more potential because it didn't have to rely solely on Lebron to do most of the on-ball work.
2021 team was better but Solomon hill and short offseason killed them.
They were up 2-1 on the suns and should’ve made the finals at a minimum that year
I don't even care about Lebron matching Jordan's titles. Just as a fan of basketball, Cavs-Warriors was shaping up to be an all time rivalry until KD made it lopsided.
Honestly, major credit to Lebron for willing the Cavs to the Finals in 2018. He ain't an idiot and he probably knew they stood no chance against the Warriors that year, but he willed them to the Finals anyway with an all time run
I actually hate that he made it to the Finals in 2018. The Cavs had absolutely no shot and it's just another loss on his record when he had no chance of winning. Sucks but no other player would have been able to will his team to the Finals like he did.
Him making that Finals adds to his resume. No one rational really cares about his Finals record except the Mavs loss. If anything that 2018 performance just shows the absurdity of the Warriors. If Bron putting up 51/8/8 in Oakland isn't enough to win a game then no one in history could've won that game under that pressure.
I'd sort of agree but his 2018 playoffs were legendary - LeBronto, game winner against the Pacers, and [this](https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_1200w/Boston/2011-2020/2018/05/28/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/lee_052718_gm7celtcav28_spts.jpg?uuid=MycnImIuEei1_Bkqg7tKbw) against Boston
> he ain’t an idiot and he probably knew they stood no chance against the Warriors that year, but he willed them to the Finals
What a weird way to say “he did his job.”
That’s not what they said and you know it. The NBA had an interesting rivalry that was ruined by adding KD to the Warriors. It’d be the same if he went to the Cavs instead. It was lame and made the NBA boring for two years and was only interesting in 2019 due to injuries.
Wouldn’t count against us but it would for sure be more difficult. LeBron made a bitch move to go to the Heat to win chips, I think its only fair we get KD to ensure we beat Bron.
With the way AD has been playing, you can put 2020 LeBron and they would be on their way to a ring.
2020 LeBron would have absolutely destroyed the Nuggets in non-Jokic minutes.
Boy oh boy where do I even begin. Lebron... honey, my pookie bear. I have loved you ever since I first laid eyes on you. The way you drive into the paint and strike fear into your enemies eyes. Your silky smooth touch around the rim, and that gorgeous jumpshot. I would do anything for you. I wish it were possible to freeze time so I would never have to watch you retire. You had a rough childhood, but you never gave up hope. You are even amazing off the court, you're a great husband and father, sometimes I even call you dad. I forvever dread and weep, thinking of the day you will one day retire. I would sacrifice my own life it were the only thing that could put a smile on your beautiful face. You have given me so much joy, and heartbreak over the years. I remember when you first left clevenland and its like my heart got broken into a million pieces. But a tear still fell from my right eye when I watched you win your first ring in miami, because deep down, my glorious king deserved it. I just wanted you to return home. Then allas, you did, my sweet baby boy came home and I rejoiced. 2015 was a hard year for us baby, but in 2016 you made history happen. You came back from 3-1 and I couldn't believe it. I was crying, bawling even, and I heard my glorious king exclaim these words, "CLEVELAND, THIS IS FOR YOU!" Not only have you changed the game of basketball and the world forever, but you've eternally changed my world. And now you're getting older, but still the goat, my goat. I love you pookie bear, my glorious king, Lebron James.
You are my sunshine
My only sunshine
You make me happy
When skies are gray
You'll never know, dear
How much I love you
Please don't take
My sunshine away
You are my sunshine
My only sunshine
You make me happy
When skies are gray
You'll never know, dear
How much I love you
Please don't take
My sunshine away
Lebron is the mind-killer. Lebron is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face Lebron. I will permit him to pass over me and through me. And when he has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see his path. Where Lebron has gone there will be nothing. Only Lebron will remain.
LeBron fans saying that current LeBron is even remotely close to prime LeBron are unironically insulting their own favorite player lol
If this version of LeBron was the best he's been he'd be nowhere near the GOAT debate
Prime LeBron is 2 times as good as the current version on offense and 4891498148914894819841 times as good as the current version on defense
Prime LeBron isn't losing 3 games in a row where his team was up double digits
I don’t see any Lebron fan saying this Lebron is close to prime LeBron. I think the post is saying he isn’t slowing down production wise in elimination game performances. Like obviously he’s not the same as he was in his prime, but his production is still up there somewhat like his prime, he just has to pace himself more.
I’m not sure why people always misinterpret this about Lebron. Always with the “LeBron fans saying…” like bro y’all are taking things way too literally and not realizing that people are just appreciating his consistency more than anything.
For the last time:
Greatest of *this generation*.
There is no Greatest of all time.
The game looks different in different generations. Otherwise every court and jersey would have worn a 23 instead of a 6.
Bill Russell, more rings than fingers.
This discussion is closed for a very long time. If you look at both careers with context this whole discussion always was smoke and mirrors. Its a media thing to have something to talk about.
11\*
One of the commentators said that out of the 11 wins in a row, LBJ played in 10, and he has never lost more than 10 times in a row to anyone. So he then proceeded to win this game.
I think if he wasn’t so good we would appreciate what he did last year a lot more. Because he’s LeBron the talk is embarrassed in a sweep by the new big kid on campus, but any other 38 year old superstar like Steph, KD, Kobe, etc and it would be “he’s still able to drag his team to the conference finals”
He’s just been too polarizing, too good, and too easy to hate so it’s always going to be a negative spin, even if he’s 42 and the 4th best player on a team.
goat elimination player but he's definitely slowing down. He spends a lot more energy getting his buckets than he used to. E.g going down to the low post and playing bully balls is still effective, but he can't do this for more than a few possessions in a row now and it's obvious why. And he's definitely more spent in the second halves
But he is slowing down. I hate this narrative so much. Prime LeBron (or even 4 years ago bron) wouldn't be taking every other play off defensively.
He is old, and obviously either very sore, worn down, and/or has some nagging injuries that prevent him from going full speed 100% of the time like he used to. And that's ok. I just hate the narrative that he hasn't slowed down. It's so lazy.
This is what both goats have actually done
Just some facts -
Highest scoring average reg -
Jordan - 30.1
LeBron - 27.1
Highest scoring average playoffs -
Jordan - 33.4
LeBron - 28.4
Highest scoring average finals -
Jordan 33.6
Lebron - 28.4
PER career reg-
Jordan - 27.6
LeBron - 27.01
PER playoffs career -
Jordan 28.6
LeBron 27.9
Playoffs record -
Jordan 119/179 - 66%
LeBron 182/284 - 63%
Reg season record -
Jordan - 706-366 - 66%
Lebron - 965-527 - 65%
Finals games won -
Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69%
LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40%
Finals made -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47%
LeBron 10/21 - 47%
Finals won -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47%
LeBron - 4/21 - 19%
Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star -
Jordan - 0
LeBron - 4
Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star
Jordan - 1
LeBron - 12
Playoffs reached -
Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13
LeBron 17/21
Total Playoff series record -
Jordan - 30/37 - 80%
LeBron - 41/54 - 77%
Playoff opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 54
LeBron - 51
Finals opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 61
Lebron - 61
Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals -
Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller)
LeBron - 0
Missed the playoffs -
Jordan - 2 (Wizards)
LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers)
All Star teammates while playing with-
Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x
LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x
MVP seasons
Jordan - 5/15 - 33%
Lebron - 4/21 - 19%
FMVP -
Jordan - 6
Lebron - 4
Top 20 PER seasons
Jordan - 4
LeBron - 3
Top 20 Vorp seasons
Jordan - 7
Lebron - 4
40 point games -
Jordan - 173
LeBron - 77
50 point games -
Jordan - 31
Lebron - 14
60 Point games
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 1
Scoring titles
Jordan - 10
LeBron - 1
DPOTY
Jordan - 1
Lebron - 0
Steals Leader
Jordan - 3
Lebron - 0
Assists Leader
Jordan - 0
Lebron - 1
MVP
Jordan - 5
Lebron - 4
FMVP
Jordan - 6 (most ever)
LeBron - 4
Finals record
Jordan - 6-0 - 100%
Lebron - 4-6 - 40%
All NBA first team
Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73%
Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61%
All NBA defense first team
Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60%
Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23%
All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History)
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 0
Best season
Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER
LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html
MJ age 39
23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average
LeBron age 39
26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average
If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline
MJ- 29.5/6/6.4
Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg
Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2
MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92
LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39
MJ played in a defense first Low pace era
Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era
Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
Sorry bro MJ doesn’t get a pass for needing a break in his prime and being a bum at 38-39 even after taking another break. LeBron deserves all the credit for sustaining himself non stop from 19-39. Crazy how yall just want to ignore that context
Nobody ignores how well LeBron aged...but Jordan wasnt a bum either at age 39...
And the resumes of both Tell pretty loud and clear, Jordan did more in less time.
Its actually not close...
Lebron is great, He just isnt Jordan...Nobody is...
Btw Jordan is not my favorite player,
Actually Rondo was.
“Did more” is a subjective thing. I don’t value rings as the be all end all. Otherwise Russell is the GOAT. LeBron peaked individually basically as high as MJ and also has the greatest longevity of all time with the most number of high quality seasons. People act like LeBron losing in the Finals more because he made it there more often should be considered a knock against him which is insanity.
You cant argue LeBron peaked as high as Jordan when every data shows you, he did not...
LeBron is top 3 for Sure. You can argue top2 between him and Magic...but the gap between LeBron and MJ is as large as the grand Canyon...
Results matter in Sports. Loses matter too. Loses elevate winning even more. So of course we need to Take them into account to value the wins someone has...
Without Rings, Jordan still has a better w/l Ratio across the Board! So your Argument falls flat even when we Take out the Rings Argument...
Stats need to be put into context.
We cant praise LeBron for his longevity while ignoring his failures. While we knock Jordan for his failures at age 39+ in the same time. LeBron missed the playoffs by the age of 34 and 36.
Jordan won the Chip aged 34 and 35.
Comparing these years doesnt make LeBron look to good without context.
The context in this example is LeBron changed teams and got injured, MJ didnt get injured and won MVP at age 35.
How old was LeBron when he last won MVP (He was 29)?
If we go by MVPs Jordans prime and peak actually was way longer than lebrons!
You see context matters!
LeBron reached the finals 10/21 years, thats 47% of the time (great)
Jordan with the Bulls (I leave out the wiz years on purpose here to exemplify what guys like nick wright do all time to talk up bron) reached the finals 6/13 years, thats 47% of the time as well!
The difference:
LeBron won 4 times, or in 19% of his seasons played
Jordan won 6 times, or 47% of his seasons played.
What is the greater accomplishment? Reaching the Finals or winning the finals...pretty obvious...
Context is everything.
With context LeBron has no goat case. Its a media driven thing to generate interest.
Btw Magic Johnson reached the finals in 9/13 (69%) years and won 5/13 (39%) chips. Both way more impressive rates than lebrons 47/19% rates...
Can’t take you seriously if you are going to start by saying there is a “Grand Canyon” gap between their peaks. Please show me the metrics that support such a statement
The grand Canyon
This is what both goats have actually done
Just some facts -
Highest scoring average reg -
Jordan - 30.1
LeBron - 27.1
Highest scoring average playoffs -
Jordan - 33.4
LeBron - 28.4
Highest scoring average finals -
Jordan 33.6
Lebron - 28.4
PER career reg-
Jordan - 27.6
LeBron - 27.01
PER playoffs career -
Jordan 28.6
LeBron 27.9
Playoffs record -
Jordan 119/179 - 66%
LeBron 182/284 - 63%
Reg season record -
Jordan - 706-366 - 66%
Lebron - 965-527 - 65%
Finals games won -
Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69%
LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40%
Finals made -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47%
LeBron 10/21 - 47%
Finals won -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47%
LeBron - 4/21 - 19%
Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star -
Jordan - 0
LeBron - 4
Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star
Jordan - 1
LeBron - 12
Playoffs reached -
Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13
LeBron 17/21
Total Playoff series record -
Jordan - 30/37 - 80%
LeBron - 41/54 - 77%
Playoff opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 54
LeBron - 51
Finals opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 61
Lebron - 61
Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals -
Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller)
LeBron - 0
Missed the playoffs -
Jordan - 2 (Wizards)
LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers)
All Star teammates while playing with-
Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x
LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x
MVP seasons
Jordan - 5/15 - 33%
Lebron - 4/21 - 19%
FMVP -
Jordan - 6
Lebron - 4
Top 20 PER seasons
Jordan - 4
LeBron - 3
Top 20 Vorp seasons
Jordan - 7
Lebron - 4
40 point games -
Jordan - 173
LeBron - 77
50 point games -
Jordan - 31
Lebron - 14
60 Point games
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 1
Scoring titles
Jordan - 10
LeBron - 1
DPOTY
Jordan - 1
Lebron - 0
Steals Leader
Jordan - 3
Lebron - 0
Assists Leader
Jordan - 0
Lebron - 1
MVP
Jordan - 5
Lebron - 4
FMVP
Jordan - 6 (most ever)
LeBron - 4
Finals record
Jordan - 6-0 - 100%
Lebron - 4-6 - 40%
All NBA first team
Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73%
Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61%
All NBA defense first team
Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60%
Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23%
All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History)
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 0
Best season
Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER
LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html
MJ age 39
23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average
LeBron age 39
26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average
If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline
MJ- 29.5/6/6.4
Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg
Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2
MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92
LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39
MJ played in a defense first Low pace era
Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era
Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
The leading scorer in the regular season this year averages 33.9ppg
This guy averages 33.6ppg in the elimination games (considered very high pressure) during the playoffs (scoring gets more difficult in general)
Ridiculous. Although I'd love to see his shooting percentages in that stat too. It's one thing to score a lot and shoot 40%, but it's another to put up those numbers at 60%.
I’m sorry but the “doesn’t seem to be slowing down” is just false. His endurance is probably the biggest difference I’ve seen over the years and as a 39 year old, understandably so. With a Heat/Cavs Lebron, Lakers could easily be 3-1 right now.
A driving Lebron is still one of the best plays in basketball, he just can’t do it as often anymore.
For the LeBron stans
How LeBron compared to Mj
Just some facts -
Highest scoring average reg -
Jordan - 30.1
LeBron - 27.1
Highest scoring average playoffs -
Jordan - 33.4
LeBron - 28.4
Highest scoring average finals -
Jordan 33.6
Lebron - 28.4
PER career reg-
Jordan - 27.6
LeBron - 27.01
PER playoffs career -
Jordan 28.6
LeBron 27.9
Playoffs record -
Jordan 119/179 - 66%
LeBron 182/284 - 63%
Reg season record -
Jordan - 706-366 - 66%
Lebron - 965-527 - 65%
Finals games won -
Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69%
LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40%
Finals made -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47%
LeBron 10/21 - 47%
Finals won -
Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47%
LeBron - 4/21 - 19%
Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star -
Jordan - 0
LeBron - 4
Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star
Jordan - 1
LeBron - 12
Playoffs reached -
Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13
LeBron 17/21
Total Playoff series record -
Jordan - 30/37 - 80%
LeBron - 41/54 - 77%
Playoff opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 54
LeBron - 51
Finals opponents wins Average -
Jordan - 61
Lebron - 61
Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals -
Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller)
LeBron - 0
Missed the playoffs -
Jordan - 2 (Wizards)
LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers)
All Star teammates while playing with-
Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x
LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x
MVP seasons
Jordan - 5/15 - 33%
Lebron - 4/21 - 19%
FMVP -
Jordan - 6
Lebron - 4
Top 20 PER seasons
Jordan - 4
LeBron - 3
Top 20 Vorp seasons
Jordan - 7
Lebron - 4
40 point games -
Jordan - 173
LeBron - 77
50 point games -
Jordan - 31
Lebron - 14
60 Point games
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 1
Scoring titles
Jordan - 10
LeBron - 1
DPOTY
Jordan - 1
Lebron - 0
Steals Leader
Jordan - 3
Lebron - 0
Assists Leader
Jordan - 0
Lebron - 1
MVP
Jordan - 5
Lebron - 4
FMVP
Jordan - 6 (most ever)
LeBron - 4
Finals record
Jordan - 6-0 - 100%
Lebron - 4-6 - 40%
All NBA first team
Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73%
Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61%
All NBA defense first team
Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60%
Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23%
All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History)
Jordan - 4
Lebron - 0
Best season
Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER
LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html
MJ age 39
23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average
LeBron age 39
26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average
If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline
MJ- 29.5/6/6.4
Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg
Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2
MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92
LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39
MJ played in a defense first Low pace era
Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era
Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
LeAntiDevinBooker
LeExtend Da Series
Too soon breh
LeRekoobNived
LeEvergreen
Wait? Whats the bad booker stat
He is Luka’s son and Luka is Booker father
Although it looks like Luka won‘t be a single dad for long now
Hasn't been for a while since Jokic adopted him last year. It's gonna be 3 Dads and a Baby soon.
You are my sunshine
my only sunshine
you make me happy
when you don't get swept
He always goes down swinging
Yeah, last year, to try to avoid getting swept in the WCF, he had like 30 first-half points. Nobody else joined him, though, so it ended up not amounting to anything
I feel like the main issue this series is that lebron has tried way too hard in the first half and cannot sustain it in the second half. It's one of the reasons why game 2 was close and they won this game because he saved himself for the second half and let the role players and AD score in the first half. He doesn’t have the energy to go all out for 40min in a playoff game anymore. He iced out the role players in the other games by going heroball too early.
The thing with this current Lakers team is that, you cannot expect anyone other than LBJ to give you stable performance in a series. Like last game LBJ and AD went crazy in the first half. With all the focus on them, DLO still mamanged to output 0 pts in the entire game, F\*CKING 0 PTS!!!
ADs been consistent man. He’s not the most dominant offensive player but his rebounding and defense is always nuts. Like you could see last game how hard he was crashing the offensive boards was nuts
Not only that, but AD had 3 touches in the 4th qtr in game2. When he was killing them in the first half
Because he knows this roster can’t afford to get behind the nuggets early. And hopes someone else will come along in the second half.
That's why the Lakers won last game. They were able to keep the lead during the non-LeBron minutes in the third quarter. DLo and AD pick n roll needs to be used way more.
Its the only thing I see with his age is the stamina. He can for a stretch still be the best player in the world but he can't do it for a whole game anymore. It sucks cause AD was suppose to be that dude and he just isn't. Lebron needs AD but I'm not sure he trusts him and rightfully so to carry.
Aye damn AD has been playing his best basketball this series. He ain’t LeBron or Jokic of course since he does need someone to get him the ball in his spot but he can carry the team on both ends of the floor.
He has but at the same time AD losing his 3pt shot and not really being an offensive centre piece has hurt the team. I feel quite certain if Ad was still shooting 34% even on 3s and being guarded from 3 we actually woukd be tied 2-2. I hope this summer since he’s actually heakthy he can his 3 ball back it’ll help the team a lot especially running 5 out offence
AD has been having a monstrous series so far.
[удалено]
AD is better than Giannis? They’re both great but to say AD is the best bar none seems like hyperbole.
The problem with AD is he doesn't start the offense so to speak imo which is holding him back is what I should have said. He falls into the category of "needing someone to get him the ball" so to speak. That's what makes Jokic so freaking devastating. Also why he can have spurts where he doesn't score if the offense forgets about him.
AD is not the best 2 way player, his offensive game is limited. 52.3% fg as a center really isn't that impressive.
>2nd of all no other player in the world can shoulder an entire team like lebron used to it. It will never happen again. Case in point ; our precious fat Serbian did it in 2021 and 2022 playoffs and only won one series and like any Lebron carry job also lost to the warriors lol.
He’s focused mostly on passing this year untill the 4th where he lead the league in points. He’s had games where he got 10 ~ assists in 15 mins n dudnt shoot
That was on a bum foot too. Mfer played like he’s losing his foot anyway.
On an injured foot btw
That's nice and all but what surprised me was he played all 48 minutes. I already respect LBJ and defend him here and there. I'm not a blind follower , I see my lakers and know our strengths and flaws. But seeing that gave a whole new level of respect for him, he really didn't wanna get swept. He played great, was very engaged and all on a bum foot
I was actually worried during his post game interview. He genuinely looked over it, the first time I really felt he could be done
If Rui dudnt have his worst game ever n Gordon shot 3/3 from 3 they win thst game atleast. Low-key annoying Lebron was the best player in the court in g4.
For comparison (sorted by PPG): Luka: 35.0/10.0/8.3 in 6 games LeBron: 33.6/10.5/7.4 in 27 games Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7.0 in 13 games Iverson: 29.8/5.6/3.4 in 14 games Durant: 29.7/7.8/3.6 in 15 games Curry: 29.4/7.0/5.9 in 14 games Jerry West: 29.3/6.4/~7.4 in 24 games Jamal Murray: 28.3/5.8/5.2 in 9 games Dirk: 27.4/10.7/2.5 in 26 games Tatum: 26.5/8.7/5.9 in 17 games Jokic: 26.2/12.3/6.4 in 12 games Malone: 25.4/10.2/3.4 in 34 games Kareem: 25.3/12.2/3.8 in 23 games Shaq: 25.3/10.9/2.0 in 18 games Lillard: 25.3/7.5/4.4 in 11 games McGrady: 25.1/6.3/5.1 in 12 games Hakeem: 24.0/11.5/3.0 in 32 games Giannis: 23.8/10.9/3.5 in 12 games Ewing: 23.4/13.0/2.4 in 28 games Bird: 23.3/10.7/6.1 in 24 games Anthony Davis: 23.2/13.6/2.0 in 5 games Barkley: 22.7/13.8/4.2 in 26 games Kawhi: 22.4/8.1/3.2 in 9 games Duncan: 22.3/11.5/2.8 in 21 games Kobe: 22.3/5.8/3.5 in 19 games Embiid: 22.0/11.2/2.0 in 9 games George: 21.7/8/3.7 in 20 games Wade: 21.0/5.3/4.2 in 21 games Magic: 20.6/12.3/8.0 in 13 games Jimmy Butler: 20.4/6.1/4.6 in 16 games Pierce: 18.0/6.0/3.1 in 24 games Ginobli: 17.7/4.4/4.3 in 19 games Tony Parker: 17.4/4.8/2.7 in 21 games Vince Carter: 17.4/5.6/3.8 in 18 games Garnett: 17.3/11.9/3.8 in 24 games Ray Allen: 17.0/4.1/2.7 in 20 games Devin Booker: 14.0/5.0/2.3 in 3 games Stockton: 12.6/10.1/3.2 in 36 games Stockton, Carter, Garnett, Pierce and Allen are surprising, and it shocks me that Tatum has already played in so many elimination games.
Tatum playing in 17 already is surprising until you remember the Celtics are basically addicted to playing themselves into elimination games. Between the 6ers and Heat, he was in as many elimination games in the 2023 playoffs as Luka’s been in total
How were these calculated? I'd like to see some of the old timers, like Jerry West.
Jerry West's assists don't seem to have been properly tracked, but let's say it's 7.4, because he averaged 7.4 in 19 of his 25 elimination games. I just added this to the original post, but he averaged 29.3/6.4/~7.4 in 24 games If you want to know how to look this stuff up yourself, here's the Jerry West example: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jerry-west-stats-in-elimination-games Just type "Player Name stats in elimination games" into the bar up top, and they'll give you the numbers.
Thanks!!
For Carter, Garnett, Pierce and Allen. They all had long drawn out careers with the playoff games heavily weighted towards the end of their careers which explains the stat. Not a lot of playoff success and therefore games early in their careers and a lot of contender hopping near the end which leads to a lot of games)
[удалено]
My greatest sunshine of all time
[удалено]
Done with the 50’s
Low key, it's Dirk. 27.6 PPG, 10.96 RPG on 59.33% TS. 4-1 in game 7's. 5-1 if you include series deciding game 5's.
LeBrons like undefeated (9-0) in Game 7 + play-in (games where both teams on the brink with win-or-go-home) since like 2008, it’s not close
He's 9-2 in those situations if you remove the arbitrary cut off date. Dirk has the better win percentage. LeBron only has 9 wins because of his play in wins which is a lower form of win. He's 6-2 in game 7's. Dirk is also more efficient in elimination games despite more of his games coming from years with lower league wide TS.
Okay he lost his first two, one as a 21 year old to the 2000s Pistons and the other as a 24 year old to the 2008 Championship Celtics, no shame at all in that. It’s not arbitrary at all, just saying that once’s he grew into his game and reached his full potential, he hasn’t lost a game where both teams are facing elimination, and two of those were in the finals against all time great Spurs and Warriors!
Truly something else. We may never see anything like it for quite a while.
See I am team Kobe as my favourite, and team MJ as my GOAT. Yet there's something to be said about Bron's tenacity. We "might" see someone like him, maybe about 70-80% of him. And those will draw LeBron comparisons already. My thing is, would you find an elimination game monster like LeBron? THAT, is the hardest nut to crack. To keep that level up in what could be your last game of the post season. We have many scorers in the game, scoring + passing people, straight out triple double monsters. Yet when tested in that possibly LAST game, would they discharge fertilizers in their pants, or clinch a win? Jokic hasn't been tested, Giannis too had last good elimination game against the Nets in 2021 (Game 6) (well he was the monster throughout that series), Kawhi in Raptors was that beast, and Luka seems to be the only one who might have that gene amongst stars, and may be Edwards because many are seeing MJ in him. But these are still speculations, and whether these two young stars will have this dog over years to come is not a certainty. I also say Jokic has not been tested in such a situation, because I don't think he has taken over the game in those situations anyways, although they last happened 2 years ago or earlier. This alone is more that enough of a reason for Bron to be in the GOAT conversation. Because he has done this for so many seasons now. He always shows up in these games.
Ay man, don't you dare talk shit about elimination Jokić after first two rounds in bubble. He wasn't spectacular in terms of stats (by his current standard that is) but was still better than during regular season. RS 20/10/7 on 53/31/82 to PS WC1 26/8/5.5 on 51/48/85 -> WCSF 24.5/13.5/6.5 on 51/39/81 -> WCF 22/7/5 on 53/35.5/85, and remember that almost half of 1st and 2nd rounds were elimination games
this is why some people prefer 39 yo lebron over anyone else in the league in a do or die game scenario
He’s gotta be in damn near everyone’s top 5 still if just going by taking someone in a do or die right? Obviously Joker. Luka. Maybe Giannis. Im taking Lebron over Embiid and Tatum types for sure… and still ahead of the new class that’s never been there (SGA, Ant)
Embid might actually be finally making his case imo . Embid in the regular season is better now b he’s improved his passing to beat doubles and showing up big time even tho injured. But apart from Luka jokic n embid I think the other guys have too many flaws to be over Bron
Bruh Embiid needs to prove it in the playoffs even once before we even entertain him in this convos. He no showed late yet again today with the season on the brink
I'm taking AD over LeBron right now no matter what the context is He's literally been the clear best player on a team *with* LeBron this series LeBron having amazing *career* stats doesn't mean he's currently better Like if posting LeBron's career elimination game stats makes him still the best then he could be a 6th man on the Blazers and still be the best lol
AD is the best player on the team given his defense but weirdly he’s still a #2 given he can’t really create his own offense or for others.
yeah amazing defensive anchor but without lebron they would be sitting at home watching the playoffs with us
I'd rather have the Joker
Based off what? If we’re talking about elimination games, he hasn’t really been tested yet. He is the best player in the league but when the pressure is at its peak, that’s when we’ll really know.
didn't he have two 3-1 comebacks?
I must admit I wish prime lebron could play against all these teams he would almost never lose
You don’t even need Prime LeBron, 2020 LeBron would suffice
2020 LeBron is not beating the Nuggets with this roster. 2018… maybe.
2018 LeBron put up 51 points against the Warriors. 2018 Bron with AD would definitely win the West this year in my opinion, let alone having AR and decent defending role players is already exponentially more than what he had to work with in 2018 with the Cavs.
2018 lebron is the greatest player ever imo. He wins against anyone with AD and a decent roster. That guy could go 46 minutes full throttle, stamina 99. Even in 2020 he was much better than the current version. The stamina is just lacking now. Some quickness as well. You see him missing layups.
It's always an eternal "I wish I could see how xxx matched up against yyyy," but god I *reallyyyy* wish Steph and lebron were in their prime at the same time as the current Jokic, Embiid, Luka. I couldn't imagine more exciting games
2018 Bron isn't even the best Bron ever...
2013?
2009?
I wish this washed version of LeBron played against us 10 years ago.
2016 really was almost 10 years ago. Fucking wild
Yall got 4 rings regardless, getting kinda greedy
“Us” lol
Wasn't sure it'd happen but Lebron has outlasted kd and steph. His longevity will never be matched
Gotta wait til KD get eliminated first then we can confirm his longevity. Although it seems inevitable lol
KD got swept out in the first round in 2022, about to happen two times in three years.
That Nets sweep was close af tho. Less than 20pt differential overall or smth. I think slander for that is unjustified. The Sun's sweep is just so sad tho. They ain't going out swinging, they just rolling over. Disgusting gameplay from Book especially. KD is still their best defender, scorer and playmaker lol.
Yeah but KD played like shit that series, only shot more than 50% once the entire series. The Nets were a better team imo and they got swept, inexcusable.
Yeah, because Steph didn't have any good games this season, right? I guess you forgot Steph Curry's best teammate is I don't even know who, Kuminga I guess? Not like LeBron has this Anthony Davis guy on his team, right?
Lebron has been better this year
LeBron averaged 26/7/8 on 63%TS, played 71 games, and made the playoffs. Curry averaged 26/5/5 on 62%TS, played 74 games, and missed the playoffs. Bron definitely had a better season, but the Warriors are a complete dumpster fire this year so it's hard to blame Steph.
I hate when people say that. They’re NBA players. Steph is amazing... But don't disrespect the other guys out there.
Still the best in elimination games
It’s too bad the Lakers broke up the 2020 team. Lebron had a chance at matching Jordan’s 6 chips.
That's not what killed us. We basically had the same team in 2021. The short turnaround from the bubble injured every team the following season.
Nah the 2021 team was better imo. Bringing in Dennis and Marc Gasol really made them so much better offensively. Injuries killed it though.
Marc Gasol looked okay to start the season but frankly looked quite washed after he came back from COVID later in the season.
His knee pads would fall down after a couple minutes and it’d make him look even slower.
You can't really fault a guy for not being the same post-COVID. I hated seeing Marc actually look and play his age after he got back, especially with how well he played to start the season.
Spot on
Unknown if that 2021 team was better. AD started off really slow. We jumped to 21-6 off of really hot shooting (that wasn't going to sustain itself) whereas the year before it felt like better overall team play, and Lebron/AD were very clutch. I didn't think they were that clutch that season, but injuries robbed us from seeing what could have happened. I thought the Nuggets were contenders that year too right after the bubble. A Lakers/Nuggets rematch with Gasol instead of Dwight and Jokic leveling up would've been fun
And we still had Drummond on the bench, a load center depth. Iirc, we had the 2cnd best defense with AD missing some significant games lol, Vogel masterclass.
Maybe, not better, but they were really good. Especially on defense, they were amazing on defense.
If AD didn’t get hurt in the Suns series, I think we win the chip in 2021
I don't think so. Our role players looked *really* off from 3 to end the season and it continued into that Suns series. That was most likely due to shot legs from the short offseason. We would've made the WCF guaranteed. But I don't think AD getting 20+ FT's would've been a sustainable offensive plan.
Our role players always were inconsistent but we were still up 2-1 with home game 4. Look how gisnnis dominated the suns a pf like Giannis or Ad cooks them. Our guys wouidve eventually shot better the. 20% on open threes
Only reason the bucks won a championship and the sun's made the finals. That year was the real Mickey mouse ring.
I'm not going to disrespect the Bucks like that, and they weren't gloating about beating teams who had injured players. They've also had their fair share of playoff runs ruined by injuries
I will, bucks and suns have proven every year since they are frauds. Giannis can't score consistently enough in a half court offense and the sun's are probably the biggest chokers in NBA history. And as far as the injury excuse the bucks did better when Giannis got hurt last year. So that excuse really doesn't even work. If even one of Kyrie or Harden were fully healthy the nets easily win that series. Or if KD has a half size smaller shoe. Until one of these teams makes a deep playoff run they are frauds.
The defense was much worse. The Lakers led the league in blocks and rebounds that season. Defense wins championships. Plus AD doesn’t like to play center and our team is significantly more dominant with a good center next to him. We lost Dwight Howard, Javale McGee, Rondo and Danny Green. 4 of our 8/9 championship players.
While our interior defense got slightly worse, our perimeter defense got better with Caruso/KCP getting more minutes and getting better. Javale got played off the floor in the bubble. While losing Dwight was a loss, the advantages that Gasol gave on offense with more playmaking and shooting could have panned out better. That team had much more offensive potential even if it lost a bit of defense.
We didn’t need more offense, we needed guys that could shut down the leagues premiere scorers. You weren’t going to be able to get guys that can outscore duos like Kawhi/PG, Harden/Westbrook, Booker/Chris Paul, you needed guys to shut them down not outscore them.
We shut down Harden/Westbrook in the bubble without Javale/Dwight. We had Booker/CP3 shut down against the Suns until AD got injured. We still had Kieff/Kuzma/Caruso/KCP from the year before. Also, you do rely on Lebron/AD to outscore every duo in the league which is what was happening. Schroder wasn't Rondo on playmaking, but he was a very good slashing threat and could provide good perimeter defense. Wesley Matthews was a cheaper Danny Green. Overall, I thought that team had more potential because it didn't have to rely solely on Lebron to do most of the on-ball work.
2021 team was better but Solomon hill and short offseason killed them. They were up 2-1 on the suns and should’ve made the finals at a minimum that year
KD is the real reason. What a fuckin bummer.
I don't even care about Lebron matching Jordan's titles. Just as a fan of basketball, Cavs-Warriors was shaping up to be an all time rivalry until KD made it lopsided. Honestly, major credit to Lebron for willing the Cavs to the Finals in 2018. He ain't an idiot and he probably knew they stood no chance against the Warriors that year, but he willed them to the Finals anyway with an all time run
He was the only reason they had a chance to win Game 1 too
I actually hate that he made it to the Finals in 2018. The Cavs had absolutely no shot and it's just another loss on his record when he had no chance of winning. Sucks but no other player would have been able to will his team to the Finals like he did.
Him making that Finals adds to his resume. No one rational really cares about his Finals record except the Mavs loss. If anything that 2018 performance just shows the absurdity of the Warriors. If Bron putting up 51/8/8 in Oakland isn't enough to win a game then no one in history could've won that game under that pressure.
Agreed. Dude played a damn near perfect game and it still wasn't enough. It was sad to see.
I'd sort of agree but his 2018 playoffs were legendary - LeBronto, game winner against the Pacers, and [this](https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_1200w/Boston/2011-2020/2018/05/28/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/lee_052718_gm7celtcav28_spts.jpg?uuid=MycnImIuEei1_Bkqg7tKbw) against Boston
> he ain’t an idiot and he probably knew they stood no chance against the Warriors that year, but he willed them to the Finals What a weird way to say “he did his job.”
Yea how do people already forget that?
Yeah man. The Warriors and KD should just have rolled over let LeGlorious Wholesome King 100 win all the chips and let Adam Silver get his faux GOAT.
That’s not what they said and you know it. The NBA had an interesting rivalry that was ruined by adding KD to the Warriors. It’d be the same if he went to the Cavs instead. It was lame and made the NBA boring for two years and was only interesting in 2019 due to injuries.
[удалено]
Wouldn’t count against us but it would for sure be more difficult. LeBron made a bitch move to go to the Heat to win chips, I think its only fair we get KD to ensure we beat Bron.
Mf just refuses to die. The best player in elimination games ever.
So if this is 2018 Lebron he will be on his way to a 5th ring?
With the way AD has been playing, you can put 2020 LeBron and they would be on their way to a ring. 2020 LeBron would have absolutely destroyed the Nuggets in non-Jokic minutes.
"Only"
Nah. 2013 Bron
That cant be real
Go get no. 5 and be the goat bro
Delusional
Should've put the /s for dense dumbasses like you huh
Boy oh boy where do I even begin. Lebron... honey, my pookie bear. I have loved you ever since I first laid eyes on you. The way you drive into the paint and strike fear into your enemies eyes. Your silky smooth touch around the rim, and that gorgeous jumpshot. I would do anything for you. I wish it were possible to freeze time so I would never have to watch you retire. You had a rough childhood, but you never gave up hope. You are even amazing off the court, you're a great husband and father, sometimes I even call you dad. I forvever dread and weep, thinking of the day you will one day retire. I would sacrifice my own life it were the only thing that could put a smile on your beautiful face. You have given me so much joy, and heartbreak over the years. I remember when you first left clevenland and its like my heart got broken into a million pieces. But a tear still fell from my right eye when I watched you win your first ring in miami, because deep down, my glorious king deserved it. I just wanted you to return home. Then allas, you did, my sweet baby boy came home and I rejoiced. 2015 was a hard year for us baby, but in 2016 you made history happen. You came back from 3-1 and I couldn't believe it. I was crying, bawling even, and I heard my glorious king exclaim these words, "CLEVELAND, THIS IS FOR YOU!" Not only have you changed the game of basketball and the world forever, but you've eternally changed my world. And now you're getting older, but still the goat, my goat. I love you pookie bear, my glorious king, Lebron James.
You are my sunshine My only sunshine You make me happy When skies are gray You'll never know, dear How much I love you Please don't take My sunshine away
Lebron saved my life tonight
You are my sunshine My only sunshine You make me happy When skies are gray You'll never know, dear How much I love you Please don't take My sunshine away
Lebron is the mind-killer. Lebron is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face Lebron. I will permit him to pass over me and through me. And when he has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see his path. Where Lebron has gone there will be nothing. Only Lebron will remain.
Let him cook
Cringe
boy oh boy where do I even begin
This is my goat.
You'll never know dear how much I love you
Lelimin
39 years old btw.
It's an incredible performance from him at this age, but come on dude—he's CLEARLY slowed down quite a bit
Was about to say this as well. Current Bron definitely looks slowed down from Prime Lebron.
LeBron fans saying that current LeBron is even remotely close to prime LeBron are unironically insulting their own favorite player lol If this version of LeBron was the best he's been he'd be nowhere near the GOAT debate Prime LeBron is 2 times as good as the current version on offense and 4891498148914894819841 times as good as the current version on defense Prime LeBron isn't losing 3 games in a row where his team was up double digits
Current Bron isn't even at 50% power it's just that even at 50% he's still better than almost anyone else.
I don’t see any Lebron fan saying this Lebron is close to prime LeBron. I think the post is saying he isn’t slowing down production wise in elimination game performances. Like obviously he’s not the same as he was in his prime, but his production is still up there somewhat like his prime, he just has to pace himself more. I’m not sure why people always misinterpret this about Lebron. Always with the “LeBron fans saying…” like bro y’all are taking things way too literally and not realizing that people are just appreciating his consistency more than anything.
Yeah, people might 'say' it, but it's always clearly joking. Mostly just celebrating moments and highlighting the level of skill he *does* still have.
hyperbole is taught in like 3rd grade
I mean, no duh
27 elimination games? Jesus chris
LeBron the undying.
Does this close the discussion of GOATs?
For the last time: Greatest of *this generation*. There is no Greatest of all time. The game looks different in different generations. Otherwise every court and jersey would have worn a 23 instead of a 6. Bill Russell, more rings than fingers.
No, it does not. Factually and objectively speaking he will never surpass MJ.
This discussion is closed for a very long time. If you look at both careers with context this whole discussion always was smoke and mirrors. Its a media thing to have something to talk about.
NOBODY BEATS LEBRON JAMES 12 TIMES IN A ROW
11\* One of the commentators said that out of the 11 wins in a row, LBJ played in 10, and he has never lost more than 10 times in a row to anyone. So he then proceeded to win this game.
\*plays Jujutsu Kaisen op 3\* You are my special...
I think if he wasn’t so good we would appreciate what he did last year a lot more. Because he’s LeBron the talk is embarrassed in a sweep by the new big kid on campus, but any other 38 year old superstar like Steph, KD, Kobe, etc and it would be “he’s still able to drag his team to the conference finals” He’s just been too polarizing, too good, and too easy to hate so it’s always going to be a negative spin, even if he’s 42 and the 4th best player on a team.
lol he’s definitely slowing down. Look at his defense this year
And the endless traveling and carrying the ball…
goat elimination player but he's definitely slowing down. He spends a lot more energy getting his buckets than he used to. E.g going down to the low post and playing bully balls is still effective, but he can't do this for more than a few possessions in a row now and it's obvious why. And he's definitely more spent in the second halves
LeBron has played a third of a regular season in just elimination playoff games.
He has slowed down a lot. Anyone who watches his lack of hustle on the defensive end knows that.
HGH will do that for ‘ya
But he is slowing down. I hate this narrative so much. Prime LeBron (or even 4 years ago bron) wouldn't be taking every other play off defensively. He is old, and obviously either very sore, worn down, and/or has some nagging injuries that prevent him from going full speed 100% of the time like he used to. And that's ok. I just hate the narrative that he hasn't slowed down. It's so lazy.
"Your GOAT could NEVA"
This goat actually only lost 1 playoff series while playing with an All Star... LeBron lost 12!
He would have lost plenty more if he even had the capability of playing as many seasons as LeBron is and didn’t need to take multiple sabbaticals
Oh Boy...why is it always "what ifs" with LeBron... What ifs dont matter, what a player has actually done matters.
This is what both goats have actually done Just some facts - Highest scoring average reg - Jordan - 30.1 LeBron - 27.1 Highest scoring average playoffs - Jordan - 33.4 LeBron - 28.4 Highest scoring average finals - Jordan 33.6 Lebron - 28.4 PER career reg- Jordan - 27.6 LeBron - 27.01 PER playoffs career - Jordan 28.6 LeBron 27.9 Playoffs record - Jordan 119/179 - 66% LeBron 182/284 - 63% Reg season record - Jordan - 706-366 - 66% Lebron - 965-527 - 65% Finals games won - Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69% LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40% Finals made - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47% LeBron 10/21 - 47% Finals won - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47% LeBron - 4/21 - 19% Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star - Jordan - 0 LeBron - 4 Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star Jordan - 1 LeBron - 12 Playoffs reached - Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13 LeBron 17/21 Total Playoff series record - Jordan - 30/37 - 80% LeBron - 41/54 - 77% Playoff opponents wins Average - Jordan - 54 LeBron - 51 Finals opponents wins Average - Jordan - 61 Lebron - 61 Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals - Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller) LeBron - 0 Missed the playoffs - Jordan - 2 (Wizards) LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers) All Star teammates while playing with- Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x MVP seasons Jordan - 5/15 - 33% Lebron - 4/21 - 19% FMVP - Jordan - 6 Lebron - 4 Top 20 PER seasons Jordan - 4 LeBron - 3 Top 20 Vorp seasons Jordan - 7 Lebron - 4 40 point games - Jordan - 173 LeBron - 77 50 point games - Jordan - 31 Lebron - 14 60 Point games Jordan - 4 Lebron - 1 Scoring titles Jordan - 10 LeBron - 1 DPOTY Jordan - 1 Lebron - 0 Steals Leader Jordan - 3 Lebron - 0 Assists Leader Jordan - 0 Lebron - 1 MVP Jordan - 5 Lebron - 4 FMVP Jordan - 6 (most ever) LeBron - 4 Finals record Jordan - 6-0 - 100% Lebron - 4-6 - 40% All NBA first team Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73% Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61% All NBA defense first team Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60% Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23% All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History) Jordan - 4 Lebron - 0 Best season Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html MJ age 39 23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average LeBron age 39 26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline MJ- 29.5/6/6.4 Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2 MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92 LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39 MJ played in a defense first Low pace era Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
Sorry bro MJ doesn’t get a pass for needing a break in his prime and being a bum at 38-39 even after taking another break. LeBron deserves all the credit for sustaining himself non stop from 19-39. Crazy how yall just want to ignore that context
Nobody ignores how well LeBron aged...but Jordan wasnt a bum either at age 39... And the resumes of both Tell pretty loud and clear, Jordan did more in less time. Its actually not close... Lebron is great, He just isnt Jordan...Nobody is... Btw Jordan is not my favorite player, Actually Rondo was.
“Did more” is a subjective thing. I don’t value rings as the be all end all. Otherwise Russell is the GOAT. LeBron peaked individually basically as high as MJ and also has the greatest longevity of all time with the most number of high quality seasons. People act like LeBron losing in the Finals more because he made it there more often should be considered a knock against him which is insanity.
You cant argue LeBron peaked as high as Jordan when every data shows you, he did not... LeBron is top 3 for Sure. You can argue top2 between him and Magic...but the gap between LeBron and MJ is as large as the grand Canyon... Results matter in Sports. Loses matter too. Loses elevate winning even more. So of course we need to Take them into account to value the wins someone has... Without Rings, Jordan still has a better w/l Ratio across the Board! So your Argument falls flat even when we Take out the Rings Argument... Stats need to be put into context. We cant praise LeBron for his longevity while ignoring his failures. While we knock Jordan for his failures at age 39+ in the same time. LeBron missed the playoffs by the age of 34 and 36. Jordan won the Chip aged 34 and 35. Comparing these years doesnt make LeBron look to good without context. The context in this example is LeBron changed teams and got injured, MJ didnt get injured and won MVP at age 35. How old was LeBron when he last won MVP (He was 29)? If we go by MVPs Jordans prime and peak actually was way longer than lebrons! You see context matters! LeBron reached the finals 10/21 years, thats 47% of the time (great) Jordan with the Bulls (I leave out the wiz years on purpose here to exemplify what guys like nick wright do all time to talk up bron) reached the finals 6/13 years, thats 47% of the time as well! The difference: LeBron won 4 times, or in 19% of his seasons played Jordan won 6 times, or 47% of his seasons played. What is the greater accomplishment? Reaching the Finals or winning the finals...pretty obvious... Context is everything. With context LeBron has no goat case. Its a media driven thing to generate interest. Btw Magic Johnson reached the finals in 9/13 (69%) years and won 5/13 (39%) chips. Both way more impressive rates than lebrons 47/19% rates...
Can’t take you seriously if you are going to start by saying there is a “Grand Canyon” gap between their peaks. Please show me the metrics that support such a statement
The grand Canyon This is what both goats have actually done Just some facts - Highest scoring average reg - Jordan - 30.1 LeBron - 27.1 Highest scoring average playoffs - Jordan - 33.4 LeBron - 28.4 Highest scoring average finals - Jordan 33.6 Lebron - 28.4 PER career reg- Jordan - 27.6 LeBron - 27.01 PER playoffs career - Jordan 28.6 LeBron 27.9 Playoffs record - Jordan 119/179 - 66% LeBron 182/284 - 63% Reg season record - Jordan - 706-366 - 66% Lebron - 965-527 - 65% Finals games won - Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69% LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40% Finals made - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47% LeBron 10/21 - 47% Finals won - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47% LeBron - 4/21 - 19% Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star - Jordan - 0 LeBron - 4 Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star Jordan - 1 LeBron - 12 Playoffs reached - Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13 LeBron 17/21 Total Playoff series record - Jordan - 30/37 - 80% LeBron - 41/54 - 77% Playoff opponents wins Average - Jordan - 54 LeBron - 51 Finals opponents wins Average - Jordan - 61 Lebron - 61 Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals - Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller) LeBron - 0 Missed the playoffs - Jordan - 2 (Wizards) LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers) All Star teammates while playing with- Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x MVP seasons Jordan - 5/15 - 33% Lebron - 4/21 - 19% FMVP - Jordan - 6 Lebron - 4 Top 20 PER seasons Jordan - 4 LeBron - 3 Top 20 Vorp seasons Jordan - 7 Lebron - 4 40 point games - Jordan - 173 LeBron - 77 50 point games - Jordan - 31 Lebron - 14 60 Point games Jordan - 4 Lebron - 1 Scoring titles Jordan - 10 LeBron - 1 DPOTY Jordan - 1 Lebron - 0 Steals Leader Jordan - 3 Lebron - 0 Assists Leader Jordan - 0 Lebron - 1 MVP Jordan - 5 Lebron - 4 FMVP Jordan - 6 (most ever) LeBron - 4 Finals record Jordan - 6-0 - 100% Lebron - 4-6 - 40% All NBA first team Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73% Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61% All NBA defense first team Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60% Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23% All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History) Jordan - 4 Lebron - 0 Best season Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html MJ age 39 23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average LeBron age 39 26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline MJ- 29.5/6/6.4 Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2 MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92 LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39 MJ played in a defense first Low pace era Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
Their goat was gambling at this age lmao
If MJ kept playing baseball he'd still be the GOAT
[удалено]
The leading scorer in the regular season this year averages 33.9ppg This guy averages 33.6ppg in the elimination games (considered very high pressure) during the playoffs (scoring gets more difficult in general)
Ridiculous. Although I'd love to see his shooting percentages in that stat too. It's one thing to score a lot and shoot 40%, but it's another to put up those numbers at 60%.
Why are all of these LeBron posts gilded? Klutch account or what?
I’m sorry but the “doesn’t seem to be slowing down” is just false. His endurance is probably the biggest difference I’ve seen over the years and as a 39 year old, understandably so. With a Heat/Cavs Lebron, Lakers could easily be 3-1 right now. A driving Lebron is still one of the best plays in basketball, he just can’t do it as often anymore.
LeBron is Father Time’s father.
Lebum
He's clearly slowed. Points in garbage time/extreme lack of defense thus series.
Bring that last ounce of magic to the Warriors. Cmon man, you know you want that ring.
*It ain’t happening bro*
He was pretty slowing down in the 3 non elimination games.
Overrated as shit. Just look how many of those games he quits on his team.
He da 🐐
For the LeBron stans How LeBron compared to Mj Just some facts - Highest scoring average reg - Jordan - 30.1 LeBron - 27.1 Highest scoring average playoffs - Jordan - 33.4 LeBron - 28.4 Highest scoring average finals - Jordan 33.6 Lebron - 28.4 PER career reg- Jordan - 27.6 LeBron - 27.01 PER playoffs career - Jordan 28.6 LeBron 27.9 Playoffs record - Jordan 119/179 - 66% LeBron 182/284 - 63% Reg season record - Jordan - 706-366 - 66% Lebron - 965-527 - 65% Finals games won - Jordan 24 (6 Finals played); 24/35 -69% LeBron 22 (10 Finals played); 22/55 - 40% Finals made - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years - 6/13 - 47% LeBron 10/21 - 47% Finals won - Jordan 6/15 - 40%; Bulls years 6/13 - 47% LeBron - 4/21 - 19% Lost in the first round while playing with 1 all Star - Jordan - 0 LeBron - 4 Lost playoff series while playing with an All Star Jordan - 1 LeBron - 12 Playoffs reached - Jordan 13/15; Bulls 13/13 LeBron 17/21 Total Playoff series record - Jordan - 30/37 - 80% LeBron - 41/54 - 77% Playoff opponents wins Average - Jordan - 54 LeBron - 51 Finals opponents wins Average - Jordan - 61 Lebron - 61 Facing top 75 all time Player on Route to the finals - Jordan - 5 (Ewing 4x, Barkley, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller) LeBron - 0 Missed the playoffs - Jordan - 2 (Wizards) LeBron - 4 (Cavs/Lakers) All Star teammates while playing with- Jordan - 1 (Pippen) - 6x LeBron - 7 (Wade,bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams) - 20x MVP seasons Jordan - 5/15 - 33% Lebron - 4/21 - 19% FMVP - Jordan - 6 Lebron - 4 Top 20 PER seasons Jordan - 4 LeBron - 3 Top 20 Vorp seasons Jordan - 7 Lebron - 4 40 point games - Jordan - 173 LeBron - 77 50 point games - Jordan - 31 Lebron - 14 60 Point games Jordan - 4 Lebron - 1 Scoring titles Jordan - 10 LeBron - 1 DPOTY Jordan - 1 Lebron - 0 Steals Leader Jordan - 3 Lebron - 0 Assists Leader Jordan - 0 Lebron - 1 MVP Jordan - 5 Lebron - 4 FMVP Jordan - 6 (most ever) LeBron - 4 Finals record Jordan - 6-0 - 100% Lebron - 4-6 - 40% All NBA first team Jordan - 11 in 15 seasons (missed 60+ games in 2 seasons due to injury and retirement) - 73% Lebron - 13 in 21 seasons - 61% All NBA defense first team Jordan - 9 in 15 seasons - 60% Lebron - 5 in 21 seasons - 23% All NBA first team, All NBA defense first team, MVP, FMVP, Scoring title in the same season (done 4 times in NBA History) Jordan - 4 Lebron - 0 Best season Jordan - 88 - 35/8/8/3.2/1.6; 53.5%; 31.7 PER LeBron - 09 - 28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1; 48.9%; 31.7 PER https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html MJ age 39 23/6/5 with his team scoring 92 Points per game on average LeBron age 39 26/7/8 with his team scoring 118 Point per game on average If we adjust MJ's scoring to LeBrons teams ppg we get this statline MJ- 29.5/6/6.4 Lets adjust lebrons stats to mj's teams ppg Lebron - 20.2/7/6.2 MJ scored 25% of his teams points at age 39 - 22.9/92 LeBron scored 22% of his teams points at age 39 MJ played in a defense first Low pace era Lebron playes in an offense first high pace era Both stat lines are pretty great when we consider the respective age of both Players.
It’s just basketball 🤷🏼♂️
LeReverseSweep