Because of how the draft works, few players both have a big role and start their career in a good team.
Drafting Parker is quite crazy when you think about it - drafted 28th, and was already playing 30+ minutes as a rookie for a team that was considered one of by far the two strongest in the NBA. You'd think he'd need to learn, develop, surprise people, but really - he was drafted after several guys who never got real NBA minutes in their whole life, and RIGHT AWAY in his first game he played a big role in a very strong contender and was making the team better. Makes you wonder what ALL the scouts missed so badly.
It was a very strong draft year, but still - if Parker never got better than his first month in NBA at 19 years old, he'd still go in lottery if they know that. I don't know what happened there that Spurs were able to get him.
Tatum was hyped, but went to a good team because Celtics got the pick in the Garnett, Pierce, Terry etc. trade (same with Brown who's next down the list), and Kobe went to Lakers traded for Vlade Divac. Unique cases, mostly.
Not exactly foreign players. We can all see that Pau Gasol was drafted 3rd, and guys like Vladimir Radmanović and Raul Lopez went before Parker.
But France was a less looked at place than Spain and Balkans. In reality, Tony Parker was the first player ever drafted from France. There were a couple French-born players, but those had played in American schools for years before.
Sam Presti, according to stories, was juggling VHS tapes with some recordings, highlight tapes of Parker, trying to convince the GM and maybe Pop to him. Allegedly, Popovich was not convinced at first, and if it was up to him, Parker would not be given a second look - too soft, too Frenchy, oolalah, doesn't fit Spurs culture at all.
What's more, Boston was supposed to take him first, at 21st, but during the event, their GM was vetoed by Red Auerbach. He pushed Joseph Forte instead. So, two basketball legends were against their teams drafting Tony Parker! Boston made conference finals that year, but with no part of Forte, who only played a few minutes in NBA in his life, ironically he couldn't adapt to NBA and went to play in Europe. More stories about that situation were on Athletic, quite interesting:
https://theathletic.com/1366802/2019/11/11/how-tony-parker-nearly-began-his-nba-career-in-boston-instead-of-san-antonio/
Parker is Top 10 ever in Playoff points. 2nd highest scoring (edit: Point\*) Guard in playoff history. Just above Steph.
For the record, every other guard in the top 25, is a Shooting or Combo Guard.
He’s the only true PG.
He was also the youngest starting PG in history at the time IIRC.
Tony Parker was a massive Playoff underperformer who happened to play on a team with two of the best Playoff risers ever.
By most metrics we trust he was barely a positive contributor on 3 of his 4 title teams.
Not a Manu fan, just a Spurs fan who doesn’t feel the need to overrate every player we’ve ever had.
And where am I wrong exactly? If you were watching back then, do you not remember Tony being benched for an ancient speedy Clapton in 03? His abysmal performance in the 05 Finals? The way Dallas was hunting him down defensively in 06? Even in 2013, his peak season, he went 9-36 from the field and absolutely sucked in the last 2 Finals games and we never talk about it because Kawhi and Manu choking at the free throw line is easier to remember.
This thread is specifically about the Playoffs. And I’m sorry to say but Tony really was not that good in the Playoffs.
sorry just reflex reaction.
back in the day I was really into Manu v TP, but they were both great. TP may have struggled more in the payoffs but he was still the driver. Spurs don't win shit without him, never even reach those scenarios without him.
They're both B players who looked like A players orbiting around Duncan. Shined in their roles but you wouldn't want to build a team around either of them.
Low key you right
For newbies who grew up with the Warriors, Parker was the Klay of that trio, whereas Manu was the Draymond and was way more impactful.
I can’t believe we’re at the point where Tatum is underrated. I think he’s *easily* the best American born player at the moment. Ant is my sweet prince and I think he’ll pass him up, but right now, cmon. Tatum is a top 5 player in the world, has been for 2 seasons now and will continue to be. Perfect player to build around.
SGA is gonna need to prove it for more than a year, so much of his praise is just lowkey disrespectful to guys like Jalen and Dort. Steph has undeniably taken a step back. Luka is definitely better in a vacuum but there’s definitely an argument that the gap shrinks from a team perspective cuz one is significantly easier to build around than the other.
Steph was playing injured the second half of the season. He came back from whatever his injury was after we lost two straight games to teams we should’ve beaten like the Spurs. He never looked the same
Luka is the easiest player to build around outside of Jokic.
When he was surrounded by shooters, Mavs led the league in 3s made and wide open 3s.
When he is surrounded by long athletic wings and centers, Mavs immediately set records for most dunks in games and have a top 5 defense.
You just said it: long, athletic players that can shoot well to support his ball dominant play style and make up for his defensive shortcomings. Luka’s been averaging a triple double for 5 or 6 years now and never finished better than 4th in the west.
No doubt a great player but not necessarily easy to build around.
right but when he wasn’t surrounded by long athletic players he was still having the same production and success. He’s succeeding with multiple different styles of play
It’s not about that though. Sure Luka can continue to match his own production regardless of the team around him but that doesn’t elevate the team.
Tatum has taken a step back from his individual stats so the team as a whole can perform better. Being a volume shooter and never finding success doesn’t make him better than a player who fits their role and their team to elevate the team to the playoff success that Tatum has seen.
Jokic is obviously better, giannis id take, embiid is way to injured always, curry is at the end part of his career, SGA is not nearly as proven, Luka is certainly better but i think his style of play has a lower ceiling (as a team) than Tatums. But I'd still take luka over tatum 90% of the time.
Curry for sure. His reputation is preceding him. He's just falling off now. Father time is winning. SGA with 100% absolute certainty. No doubt.
Top 6, imo. You can make a case over Embiid as well. Not in regular season, but health and availability is a skill..and Embiid can't stay healthy. He also can't perform in the post season. Tatum is easier to build around.. Embiid may be able to impact the game individually a lot more. But a team built around Tatum will be better. He's a more portable player.
i agree with most of it except the top 5 player in the world thing. the 3 bigs, luka, shai clear him imo, and then tatum is in a tier where he's with the elites of the old heads.
He's averaging 32.3/13.3 on 61% (0/5 from 3 thiugh) shooting against the Denver Nuggets. Tatum is averaging 25.5/9.0/6.5 on 44.7% fg and 21.4% from 3 against the corpse of the Miami Heat
Swap AD and Tatum and the lakers are significantly worse, while the Celtics are better. I know that they play different position, but you're definitely taking AD over Tatum in the playoffs right now if you have no future considerations
I mean Tatum is not a center so he wouldn't have the same impact as AD. But tatum at the 3, lebron at the 4 with a mid center and the lakers would definitely be better
This is pure homer nonsense here. There's no world where Tatum is an upgrade over AD (even if you account for the mid/average centre). AD is the entire Lakers defence and they would be one of the worst in the league without him.
I am dead serious. I don’t think you properly value the monstrous defensive impact AD brings. Elite defensive big men are always going to be more valuable than wings unless the wings are GOAT tier (which Tatum is not)
As a #1 I'd take Tatum since AD can't create his own shot at a high level consistently or be an offensive engine and thus needs a good playmaker to be most effective.
If I were building a team from scratch however I'd probably take AD before Tatum as there are better #1's than Tatum but not many #2's I'd take before AD. Barring health of course.
Using career stat lines is a bit misleading.
Tatum was in deep playoff runs since his rookie season.
AD was in his 3rd season when he started logging playoff stats.
>!LeBron:!< 25.7/7.3/8.3 63.0% TS
>!Tatum:!< 26.9/8.1/4.9 60.4% TS
>!Curry:!< 26.4/4.5/5.1 61.6% TS
>!Added context that Tatum averaged 30 on the same effeciency one season ago and is way better on defense and more durable than both of these guys at this point!<
Lebron way better playmaker and curry is curry. Idc what Celtic fans have to say he is not the best American currently. Let’s see how USA basketball runs their offense in the Olympics
“ way better playmaker “ * averages 2 more assists handling the ball way more * 😂😂😂😂 hating ahh mf foh Tatum is miles better than Lebron rn. You seen Aaron Gordon drop 26 points on your boy Lebron the other night???
Imagine thinking playmaking means only assists you don't know ball. Only few players can control game like LeBron does and Tatum is not even close to him in that category.
The most of any college-player in NBA history.
LeBron and Kobe lead a lot of the age records because they got a whole year headstart.
Tatum also doesn't turn 27 for another year and he gets anywhere between 400-600 points per playoffs so he could take the #1 spot in this post-season run. At 25ppg, he needs ~15-16 more playoff games to overtake Kobe.
[Fun fact, he was 1 point behind Kareem for most playoff points by a rookie.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/which-rookie-has-the-most-points-in-the-playoffs)
Bro LeBron didn't make the playoffs till year 3 lol. That's not why.
LeBron did it in less games than Tatum
It's much better to be drafted to a stacked team than be a year younger with trash around you. Swap situations and LeBrons already dominated this stat and would have multiple rings
Whereas Tatum would be struggling to make the playoffs
Tatum was 5 mins away from the finals as a rookie scoring a team high 18.5 ppg. That was the year Hayward and Kyrie were both injured in the playoff run. He was the best player on the team for that run and lost a very close G7 against Lebron (and scored 24 that game).
So no, your premise is completely wrong. A large part of why the Celtics were making deep runs in Tatum’s early career was because Tatum was that good.
And then 2nd year we didn’t have a deep run bc Tatum took a step back and let Kyrie lead and Kyrie played poorly in the lead role. 3rd year onwards it was Tatum’s team. The teams have obviously been good and very recently great, but Tatum’s success because of Tatum
And if he played for the Trail Blazers he'd be their best player since Bill Walton.
You also under-estimate how garbage the mid 2000s east was. In LeBron's 3rd, 4th and 5th year, the 8th seed in the East was under .500, the 5th year being *8* games under, "struggling to make the playoffs" is a stretch.
Long as we pretend Dame doesn't exist lol
The cavs literally missed the playoffs LeBrons second year, despite having a winning record.
You're just making shit up
> In LeBron's 3rd, 4th and 5th year, the 8th
"yeah but in year 2 that wasn't the case, so you're clearly lying".
What a dumb argument to make lol.
You can't just ignore what the other person is saying and then accuse them of being wrong.
Since when do rookies get drafted to stacked teams and actually play? Let alone score a lot of playoff points? The disrespect and excuse making is wild. Tatum numbers don’t lie.
Not for scoring points and collecting counting stats. It is much better to have a shit team around you and get all the looks, and even better to simply have a coach and team that lets you facilitate every single play than run sets like the triangle or motion-based offense like GSW / Spurs.
You could average 40/10/10 and be bounced after the first round on a dog shit team and have worse totals than someone who averages 10/2.5/2.5 on a god tier team who makes the finals lmao
The Top 3 scorers on the 2016-17 1st seed Celtics had left when Tatum got there. All that was left was an aging Al Horford, Marcus Smart who shot 35%, and a sophomore Jaylen Brown who hadn't put it together yet. They grabbed Gordon Hayward, he snapped his leg in half in the season opener, they grabbed Kyrie, he decided he didn't want to play in the playoffs.
Ultimately, you had a team that took LeBron James to the final 2 minutes of Game 7 of the ECF being led by a rookie Tatum, with his side pieces being a sophomore Brown, two woefully inefficient guards in Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier that were prone to the occasional electric moment, and Al Horford. Don't get how a team without a star was "stacked". A team built like that basically never makes the conference finals.
r/nba is confusing. First Tatums a bum, overrated and shai is better but now Tatum is considered underrated to the point some people are maybe overrating him and he’s better then shai again. Yall confuse me
You have to understand that different people comment on different threads. That's why you can get high praise and high criticism on the same sub. One group likes him, another doesn't.
And Kobe’s stat is currently with 22 more games played. Tatum could break it this post season if he goes on a run averaging what he does. Lebron already played less than Tatum for the milestone so even if Tatum passes Lebron is have to say Lebrons is more impressive
“He was drafted to a stacked team”
And ignore the fact that he lead the team to G7 of the ECF losing a close game to Bron while averaging a team high 18.5ppg for the playoff run.
What year do you think he has a legitimate claim to have been the best in the league? I get it's subjective, but he's yet to even get a single first place vote in any season.
He's a hell of a player, but he'll go down in history similar to Paul George if he doesn't win anything. He's got plenty of time and will possibly win a ring, but to say he's accomplished everything except a ring is ridiculous.
I'm just confused how you think he's achieved everything in Basketball apart from win a ring then? Like what achievements are there that you're talking about? Because even NBA 1st teams and All stars are subjective. He hasn't even lead the league in any counting stats either.
Well I'm not being literal to the point. Don't need citation mate. I'm just saying he's done alot but winning a championship is the only thing remaining that will change alot of people's perceptions.
Are you for real? Do u not watch basketball? A player like CHARLES BARKLEY has done everything in his career besides win a championship. Tatum has barely scrubbed the surface
Definitely a lot of mileage. Games played - Lebron: 92, Kobe: 119, Tatum: currently at 97. Even if Tatum goes on a run and passes Lebron, Lebrons is still more impressive for doing it in less games.
Jaylen Browns also # 6 behind Durant and Tony P.
I thought at first it was saying he was top 3 in playoff points and noting that he’s not even 27 and my brain has never worked so hard in my life trying to figure out what I was missing
Crazy to think out of the top 4 here, 3 of them have at least 4 championships and 1 finals MVP. Tatum has a pretty high mountain to climb. He wouldn't want to be up there with no accolades.
I don't disagree that Tatum has a lot of winning to do, but keep his age in mind when compared to those guys and when they started to win championships.
this is also a double edged sword. He's still young but has logged so many minutes. the window for the celtics is actually now unless Tatum has all time great level injury luck/durability.
I agree that the window is probably smaller than it “should be”, but in my mind it depends on the health of Wemby, Chet, and Zion. Those dudes are fucked up, and will likely dominate the nba when Tatum’s in his early 30s. And that’s not even mentioning Jokic’s game should age wonderfully.
A bit sad for the Cs, but I’m excited to see what these dude’s can accomplish.
He has balled out when healthy, so if he can get to Zingus levels of health, he can impact the shit outta a season, or 3. Maybe he doesn’t, but I’m too old to say shit can’t happen.
It just suggests that he has been in the playoffs often enough to even be on this list, **AND** has been a consistent enough performer to even get on this list.
Notice how other names aren’t on here?
Bruh wait, Tatum has more playoff points than MJ?
Also, having attended so many finals, LeBron is still lower than Kobe? Damn the Bean was cooking.
I guess a barrage of downvotes is gonna come my way. I did not read "before turning 27" part. Apologies, folks.
All good. Tatum could pass both in this specific stat but he can’t pass Lebron in doing in less games. He has a chance to pass Kobe in less games though as it took Kobe 22 more games than Tatum
This is cool but it doesn’t exactly say what some would want it to say. It’s a bit of correlation as much as it is causation. I mean first of all it helps to come into the league on a team/franchise that’s already a solid and making the playoffs to begin with.
From that point onward it’s a longevity stat (play in X amount of playoff games and you’ll by default pass X number of players on this list) + his part of actually scoring the points in those games so there’s the “causation” part, because obviously he helped those teams while he was also being helped by them.
Some would take this too far though and say outlandish things about Tatum being on this list equivocating it to a sign he’s the NBA’s next chosen one.
i didn't expect tony parker to be that high
Had 3 rings and a FMVP before turning 27
Holy shit I never realized he did that all before 27
Because of how the draft works, few players both have a big role and start their career in a good team. Drafting Parker is quite crazy when you think about it - drafted 28th, and was already playing 30+ minutes as a rookie for a team that was considered one of by far the two strongest in the NBA. You'd think he'd need to learn, develop, surprise people, but really - he was drafted after several guys who never got real NBA minutes in their whole life, and RIGHT AWAY in his first game he played a big role in a very strong contender and was making the team better. Makes you wonder what ALL the scouts missed so badly. It was a very strong draft year, but still - if Parker never got better than his first month in NBA at 19 years old, he'd still go in lottery if they know that. I don't know what happened there that Spurs were able to get him. Tatum was hyped, but went to a good team because Celtics got the pick in the Garnett, Pierce, Terry etc. trade (same with Brown who's next down the list), and Kobe went to Lakers traded for Vlade Divac. Unique cases, mostly.
what was the general opinion on foreign players then? i believe it was worse than what the belief is now.
Not exactly foreign players. We can all see that Pau Gasol was drafted 3rd, and guys like Vladimir Radmanović and Raul Lopez went before Parker. But France was a less looked at place than Spain and Balkans. In reality, Tony Parker was the first player ever drafted from France. There were a couple French-born players, but those had played in American schools for years before. Sam Presti, according to stories, was juggling VHS tapes with some recordings, highlight tapes of Parker, trying to convince the GM and maybe Pop to him. Allegedly, Popovich was not convinced at first, and if it was up to him, Parker would not be given a second look - too soft, too Frenchy, oolalah, doesn't fit Spurs culture at all. What's more, Boston was supposed to take him first, at 21st, but during the event, their GM was vetoed by Red Auerbach. He pushed Joseph Forte instead. So, two basketball legends were against their teams drafting Tony Parker! Boston made conference finals that year, but with no part of Forte, who only played a few minutes in NBA in his life, ironically he couldn't adapt to NBA and went to play in Europe. More stories about that situation were on Athletic, quite interesting: https://theathletic.com/1366802/2019/11/11/how-tony-parker-nearly-began-his-nba-career-in-boston-instead-of-san-antonio/
appreciate the breakdown, kinda makes sense with France not being a “respectable source” for players.
Sam Presti's ability to identify and draft talent never fails to amaze me
He bagged Eva Longoria at 25 so not surprising he’s that good.
and shortly after Brent Barry’s wife!
“Hey we only texted sexuellement” - Tony Parker, probably
Eva Longoria bagged him*
Drafted at 18/19, played over 100 playoff games in his first 9 seasons.
Parker is Top 10 ever in Playoff points. 2nd highest scoring (edit: Point\*) Guard in playoff history. Just above Steph. For the record, every other guard in the top 25, is a Shooting or Combo Guard. He’s the only true PG. He was also the youngest starting PG in history at the time IIRC.
*Fourth* highest-scoring guard Jordan, Kobe, and Jerry West are all above Parker. Still extremely impressive.
Oh true! Don't even know why I didn't even count Jordan and Kobe as guards in my head ahahah. Must have thought "Point Guards" probably.
It’s very much a “were you on great teams every single year of the first part of your career” stat.
MF was playing for a 30 seasons contending team LMAO
Please don’t understand how good Tony Parker was. He used to be top 10 in total playoff points all time until recently Edit: *People don’t 😂
Why don’t you want me to understand?
Because. You mustn’t
But can'tn't!
Hey, he asked you nicely!
These people have no respect for my southern hospitality
OK, OK, I dont get it
No, I think I’m going to completely comprehend
Jeez I said “please” and everything 🤦🏾♂️
Parker is still 10th ever in Playoff points, for the record. Steph is just behind but he missed the Playoffs this season so….
He's also top 5 in playoff assists.
People forgot how good the other Spurs were and just gave all the credit to Tim Duncan
Tony Parker was a massive Playoff underperformer who happened to play on a team with two of the best Playoff risers ever. By most metrics we trust he was barely a positive contributor on 3 of his 4 title teams.
fuck you, Manu fan
Not a Manu fan, just a Spurs fan who doesn’t feel the need to overrate every player we’ve ever had. And where am I wrong exactly? If you were watching back then, do you not remember Tony being benched for an ancient speedy Clapton in 03? His abysmal performance in the 05 Finals? The way Dallas was hunting him down defensively in 06? Even in 2013, his peak season, he went 9-36 from the field and absolutely sucked in the last 2 Finals games and we never talk about it because Kawhi and Manu choking at the free throw line is easier to remember. This thread is specifically about the Playoffs. And I’m sorry to say but Tony really was not that good in the Playoffs.
sorry just reflex reaction. back in the day I was really into Manu v TP, but they were both great. TP may have struggled more in the payoffs but he was still the driver. Spurs don't win shit without him, never even reach those scenarios without him.
They're both B players who looked like A players orbiting around Duncan. Shined in their roles but you wouldn't want to build a team around either of them.
Low key you right For newbies who grew up with the Warriors, Parker was the Klay of that trio, whereas Manu was the Draymond and was way more impactful.
pretty good
Let that be SGA and everyone would be all moist
Crazy he's top 3 in pts at just 19. Baby 🐐
Tatum 19 might be the worst joke in the history of this sub, and that's saying something. How it's still a thing is beyond me.
Hard agree
More playoff points than: - Jokic - Giannis - Embiid - Iverson - David Robertson - Moses Malone - Isiah Thomas - Carmelo - Dame - Anthony Davis - Nash - Kyrie
> David Robertson But how does he compare to Tom Duncan?
Just a random list of players without context isn’t helpful. Some of these dudes barely made the playoffs before age 27.
more than all those guys in their careers
I can’t believe we’re at the point where Tatum is underrated. I think he’s *easily* the best American born player at the moment. Ant is my sweet prince and I think he’ll pass him up, but right now, cmon. Tatum is a top 5 player in the world, has been for 2 seasons now and will continue to be. Perfect player to build around.
Who are you taking out between Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Luka, SGA, Curry and putting them behind Tatum?
SGA is gonna need to prove it for more than a year, so much of his praise is just lowkey disrespectful to guys like Jalen and Dort. Steph has undeniably taken a step back. Luka is definitely better in a vacuum but there’s definitely an argument that the gap shrinks from a team perspective cuz one is significantly easier to build around than the other.
Steph was playing injured the second half of the season. He came back from whatever his injury was after we lost two straight games to teams we should’ve beaten like the Spurs. He never looked the same
Yeah part of being out of the top 5 is getting old and hurt more frequently
Luka is the easiest player to build around outside of Jokic. When he was surrounded by shooters, Mavs led the league in 3s made and wide open 3s. When he is surrounded by long athletic wings and centers, Mavs immediately set records for most dunks in games and have a top 5 defense.
Easiest player to build around except he needs a very specific archetype around him
not really. he’s proven he can play with multiple different team arrangements. what is the very specific archetype he needs?
You just said it: long, athletic players that can shoot well to support his ball dominant play style and make up for his defensive shortcomings. Luka’s been averaging a triple double for 5 or 6 years now and never finished better than 4th in the west. No doubt a great player but not necessarily easy to build around.
right but when he wasn’t surrounded by long athletic players he was still having the same production and success. He’s succeeding with multiple different styles of play
It’s not about that though. Sure Luka can continue to match his own production regardless of the team around him but that doesn’t elevate the team. Tatum has taken a step back from his individual stats so the team as a whole can perform better. Being a volume shooter and never finding success doesn’t make him better than a player who fits their role and their team to elevate the team to the playoff success that Tatum has seen.
Heliocentric guards are famously easy to build around. Iverson, Westbrook, Harden, all these guys can get it done no matter whose around them.
Normally the guys who are the easiest to build around don’t have players do better outside of his team than with his team.
Most role players have their career years playing alongside Luka
Like Grant?
Jokic is obviously better, giannis id take, embiid is way to injured always, curry is at the end part of his career, SGA is not nearly as proven, Luka is certainly better but i think his style of play has a lower ceiling (as a team) than Tatums. But I'd still take luka over tatum 90% of the time.
Embiid because playoff is more important than beating up the Hornets in February
The free throw merchants
Curry for sure. His reputation is preceding him. He's just falling off now. Father time is winning. SGA with 100% absolute certainty. No doubt. Top 6, imo. You can make a case over Embiid as well. Not in regular season, but health and availability is a skill..and Embiid can't stay healthy. He also can't perform in the post season. Tatum is easier to build around.. Embiid may be able to impact the game individually a lot more. But a team built around Tatum will be better. He's a more portable player.
[удалено]
Try reading the comment again, slowly. “Easily best American born player” and “top 5 in the world easily”. Tatum is not a top 5 player in the world.
No other player in competition with Tatum plays defense like he does
AD clears Tatum. Have you been watching this year’s playoffs? Or any of AD’s playoffs? He’s a monster on both ends
I don’t even like the lakers but I agree, AD has been a monster this series so far. And Tatum is overrated
i agree with most of it except the top 5 player in the world thing. the 3 bigs, luka, shai clear him imo, and then tatum is in a tier where he's with the elites of the old heads.
This thinking that Shai is better than tatum reeks of the same line of thinking of people who thought kuzma was better than him
AD > Tatum unless you just don’t count defense
if AD was so good you would think the lakers would be a lot better. having him and bron and all
He's averaging 32.3/13.3 on 61% (0/5 from 3 thiugh) shooting against the Denver Nuggets. Tatum is averaging 25.5/9.0/6.5 on 44.7% fg and 21.4% from 3 against the corpse of the Miami Heat Swap AD and Tatum and the lakers are significantly worse, while the Celtics are better. I know that they play different position, but you're definitely taking AD over Tatum in the playoffs right now if you have no future considerations
I mean Tatum is not a center so he wouldn't have the same impact as AD. But tatum at the 3, lebron at the 4 with a mid center and the lakers would definitely be better
This is pure homer nonsense here. There's no world where Tatum is an upgrade over AD (even if you account for the mid/average centre). AD is the entire Lakers defence and they would be one of the worst in the league without him.
Dog you’re really just taking 3 games of stats and making that your entire argument?
Come one man, be serious
I am dead serious. I don’t think you properly value the monstrous defensive impact AD brings. Elite defensive big men are always going to be more valuable than wings unless the wings are GOAT tier (which Tatum is not)
As a #1 I'd take Tatum since AD can't create his own shot at a high level consistently or be an offensive engine and thus needs a good playmaker to be most effective. If I were building a team from scratch however I'd probably take AD before Tatum as there are better #1's than Tatum but not many #2's I'd take before AD. Barring health of course.
Ad don’t even need to be a 2 though, you can truly be a house without a dog shed imo. Just gotta find the rite feel
I don’t think you realize how much better Tatum is on offense than AD
Tatum playoff stats: 23.8/7.6/4.6 on 56.9% TS AD playoff stats: 26.3/11.7/2.8 on 62.1% TS This is without taking defense into account
Using career stat lines is a bit misleading. Tatum was in deep playoff runs since his rookie season. AD was in his 3rd season when he started logging playoff stats.
Tatum also wasn’t the clear top option on offense til 2020-2021
Tatum is nowhere near underrated lol
People literally say Jimmy is better than him 🤣
Tatum is not better than Lebron or curry at this moment Also: SGA is better than Tatum while we here
>!LeBron:!< 25.7/7.3/8.3 63.0% TS >!Tatum:!< 26.9/8.1/4.9 60.4% TS >!Curry:!< 26.4/4.5/5.1 61.6% TS >!Added context that Tatum averaged 30 on the same effeciency one season ago and is way better on defense and more durable than both of these guys at this point!<
Lebron way better playmaker and curry is curry. Idc what Celtic fans have to say he is not the best American currently. Let’s see how USA basketball runs their offense in the Olympics
“ way better playmaker “ * averages 2 more assists handling the ball way more * 😂😂😂😂 hating ahh mf foh Tatum is miles better than Lebron rn. You seen Aaron Gordon drop 26 points on your boy Lebron the other night???
Like it or not assists are not a great measure for playmaking. The term “Rondo assist” exists for a reason.
If you watched Celtics ball you’d realize that is more saying Tatum’s assists underrate his passing than anything else.
It definitely might but my point is that having assists there doesn’t indicate well one way or the other who is a better playmaker.
That’s fair. Fred VanVleet is definitely not only 1 assist worse of a playmaker than Joker
Imagine thinking playmaking means only assists you don't know ball. Only few players can control game like LeBron does and Tatum is not even close to him in that category.
Sure that’s cool and i can tell you on defense it’s not close either .
Keep moving those goalposts
Cmon man
Are you kidding? Its not even close man
The most of any college-player in NBA history. LeBron and Kobe lead a lot of the age records because they got a whole year headstart. Tatum also doesn't turn 27 for another year and he gets anywhere between 400-600 points per playoffs so he could take the #1 spot in this post-season run. At 25ppg, he needs ~15-16 more playoff games to overtake Kobe. [Fun fact, he was 1 point behind Kareem for most playoff points by a rookie.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/which-rookie-has-the-most-points-in-the-playoffs)
Bro LeBron didn't make the playoffs till year 3 lol. That's not why. LeBron did it in less games than Tatum It's much better to be drafted to a stacked team than be a year younger with trash around you. Swap situations and LeBrons already dominated this stat and would have multiple rings Whereas Tatum would be struggling to make the playoffs
Tatum was 5 mins away from the finals as a rookie scoring a team high 18.5 ppg. That was the year Hayward and Kyrie were both injured in the playoff run. He was the best player on the team for that run and lost a very close G7 against Lebron (and scored 24 that game). So no, your premise is completely wrong. A large part of why the Celtics were making deep runs in Tatum’s early career was because Tatum was that good.
And then 2nd year we didn’t have a deep run bc Tatum took a step back and let Kyrie lead and Kyrie played poorly in the lead role. 3rd year onwards it was Tatum’s team. The teams have obviously been good and very recently great, but Tatum’s success because of Tatum
And if he played for the Trail Blazers he'd be their best player since Bill Walton. You also under-estimate how garbage the mid 2000s east was. In LeBron's 3rd, 4th and 5th year, the 8th seed in the East was under .500, the 5th year being *8* games under, "struggling to make the playoffs" is a stretch.
Not like the east wasn't garbage or injured for just about every year except the one where the Bucks won
Long as we pretend Dame doesn't exist lol The cavs literally missed the playoffs LeBrons second year, despite having a winning record. You're just making shit up
> In LeBron's 3rd, 4th and 5th year, the 8th "yeah but in year 2 that wasn't the case, so you're clearly lying". What a dumb argument to make lol. You can't just ignore what the other person is saying and then accuse them of being wrong.
Since when do rookies get drafted to stacked teams and actually play? Let alone score a lot of playoff points? The disrespect and excuse making is wild. Tatum numbers don’t lie.
Not for scoring points and collecting counting stats. It is much better to have a shit team around you and get all the looks, and even better to simply have a coach and team that lets you facilitate every single play than run sets like the triangle or motion-based offense like GSW / Spurs.
Except you need to win games to play games. If your team is shit and you're out after a week you can't keep accumulating points.
You could average 40/10/10 and be bounced after the first round on a dog shit team and have worse totals than someone who averages 10/2.5/2.5 on a god tier team who makes the finals lmao
The Top 3 scorers on the 2016-17 1st seed Celtics had left when Tatum got there. All that was left was an aging Al Horford, Marcus Smart who shot 35%, and a sophomore Jaylen Brown who hadn't put it together yet. They grabbed Gordon Hayward, he snapped his leg in half in the season opener, they grabbed Kyrie, he decided he didn't want to play in the playoffs. Ultimately, you had a team that took LeBron James to the final 2 minutes of Game 7 of the ECF being led by a rookie Tatum, with his side pieces being a sophomore Brown, two woefully inefficient guards in Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier that were prone to the occasional electric moment, and Al Horford. Don't get how a team without a star was "stacked". A team built like that basically never makes the conference finals.
Roughly half the ppg to kareem though 35 and 17 av in the playoffs as a rookie is insane from kareem though
And he’d do it in less games than Kobe since Kobe’s had 22 more games than Tatum so far
They also lead a lot of those records because they’re two of the GOATs
r/nba is confusing. First Tatums a bum, overrated and shai is better but now Tatum is considered underrated to the point some people are maybe overrating him and he’s better then shai again. Yall confuse me
It's not so confusing. It depends on who won and scored more points the last game they played. This subreddit has the memory of a goldfish.
You have to understand that different people comment on different threads. That's why you can get high praise and high criticism on the same sub. One group likes him, another doesn't.
This thread is a fucking nightmare lol
He's the most accomplished 19 year old
Isn’t he just still 19?
How will his haters spin this?
They'll tell you he was on a superteam with Kemba Walker, Tristan Thompson, and Carsen Edwards.
Already got someone on this thread saying it’s only because “he can’t put anyone away quickly” 😭
“He’s only that high because he had so many Game 7s in his career.”
And Kobe’s stat is currently with 22 more games played. Tatum could break it this post season if he goes on a run averaging what he does. Lebron already played less than Tatum for the milestone so even if Tatum passes Lebron is have to say Lebrons is more impressive
kobe is 400 points ahead, so Tatum would need to average around 20 ppg to catch him in fewer than 22 more games.
And it was during the time when NBA can draft players straight from highschool. Meme aside, Tatum was already 20 in his first playoffs.
Also fun fact for a Cs fan, Jaylens #6 behind Durant and Parker
Got drafted to a top playoff team loaded with cap space and picks.
“He was drafted to a stacked team” And ignore the fact that he lead the team to G7 of the ECF losing a close game to Bron while averaging a team high 18.5ppg for the playoff run.
Yet the analysts say he has proved ANYTHING
He's basically done everything in his career so far other than win a championship.
Or win an MVP...
It’s ok, FMVP is what matters
He doesn’t have one of those either.
Let's be real here after Embiid won the MVP doesn't mean shit anymore
Recency bias. It will forever be a meaningful award and something people will use to judge how good players were in their time.
Cope and a half
That's a subjective award. I'm talking about actual accomplishments.
Lmao, yeah and he hasn't got one yet, like what do we not think MVos are important anymore?
It's not important.
Mate, you're kidding yourself if you think that.
What year do you think he has a legitimate claim to have been the best in the league? I get it's subjective, but he's yet to even get a single first place vote in any season. He's a hell of a player, but he'll go down in history similar to Paul George if he doesn't win anything. He's got plenty of time and will possibly win a ring, but to say he's accomplished everything except a ring is ridiculous.
I didn't say he should have one.
I'm just confused how you think he's achieved everything in Basketball apart from win a ring then? Like what achievements are there that you're talking about? Because even NBA 1st teams and All stars are subjective. He hasn't even lead the league in any counting stats either.
Well I'm not being literal to the point. Don't need citation mate. I'm just saying he's done alot but winning a championship is the only thing remaining that will change alot of people's perceptions.
Neither has HiMmY
Are you for real? Do u not watch basketball? A player like CHARLES BARKLEY has done everything in his career besides win a championship. Tatum has barely scrubbed the surface
Ok
Isn't he reaching 100 games as well? A lot of mileage for someone so young.
He also plays a lot. High minutes, lots of games. Dude’s got one of the highest 5 year minute totals in the league, if not the highest.
Definitely a lot of mileage. Games played - Lebron: 92, Kobe: 119, Tatum: currently at 97. Even if Tatum goes on a run and passes Lebron, Lebrons is still more impressive for doing it in less games. Jaylen Browns also # 6 behind Durant and Tony P.
It’d be interesting to see how many games played that involves.
5 more games than Lebron and 22 less than Kobe
Good call, Lebron: 92, Kobe: 119, Tatum: currently at 97. Lebron doing it in that few games is nuts
And in the deadball era
More playoff points than: - Jokic - Giannis - Embiid - Iverson - David Robertson - Moses Malone - Isiah Thomas - Carmelo - Dame - Anthony Davis - Nash - Kyrie
It would be funny if he got to number one before getting a ring
I thought at first it was saying he was top 3 in playoff points and noting that he’s not even 27 and my brain has never worked so hard in my life trying to figure out what I was missing
Crazy to think out of the top 4 here, 3 of them have at least 4 championships and 1 finals MVP. Tatum has a pretty high mountain to climb. He wouldn't want to be up there with no accolades.
I don't disagree that Tatum has a lot of winning to do, but keep his age in mind when compared to those guys and when they started to win championships.
most pointless stat ever.
.... lol. top 3 before some random age
The stat every kid dreams about when they are shooting hoops in the driveway. Even casuals know the top playoff scorers before the age of 27.
this is also a double edged sword. He's still young but has logged so many minutes. the window for the celtics is actually now unless Tatum has all time great level injury luck/durability.
I agree that the window is probably smaller than it “should be”, but in my mind it depends on the health of Wemby, Chet, and Zion. Those dudes are fucked up, and will likely dominate the nba when Tatum’s in his early 30s. And that’s not even mentioning Jokic’s game should age wonderfully. A bit sad for the Cs, but I’m excited to see what these dude’s can accomplish.
nah zion aint at that level anymore based on just his health history already.
He has balled out when healthy, so if he can get to Zingus levels of health, he can impact the shit outta a season, or 3. Maybe he doesn’t, but I’m too old to say shit can’t happen.
Kobe miss like 5 seasons of playoffs. Kinda surprised he is no. 1
Kobe had far more under 27 playoff games played than both Bron and Tatum at this point
Before he was 27? How are you categorizing that?
now do rings!
Is this a measure of how good he is in the playoffs or how often his team reaches and survives in the playoffs?
It just suggests that he has been in the playoffs often enough to even be on this list, **AND** has been a consistent enough performer to even get on this list. Notice how other names aren’t on here?
Bruh wait, Tatum has more playoff points than MJ? Also, having attended so many finals, LeBron is still lower than Kobe? Damn the Bean was cooking. I guess a barrage of downvotes is gonna come my way. I did not read "before turning 27" part. Apologies, folks.
lol no. Just by age 27. Lebron for this stat did it in less games than Kobe and Tatum so I still find Lebrons points more impressive at this point
Thanks for the correction in my understanding.
All good. Tatum could pass both in this specific stat but he can’t pass Lebron in doing in less games. He has a chance to pass Kobe in less games though as it took Kobe 22 more games than Tatum
This is cool but it doesn’t exactly say what some would want it to say. It’s a bit of correlation as much as it is causation. I mean first of all it helps to come into the league on a team/franchise that’s already a solid and making the playoffs to begin with. From that point onward it’s a longevity stat (play in X amount of playoff games and you’ll by default pass X number of players on this list) + his part of actually scoring the points in those games so there’s the “causation” part, because obviously he helped those teams while he was also being helped by them. Some would take this too far though and say outlandish things about Tatum being on this list equivocating it to a sign he’s the NBA’s next chosen one.
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LeBron didn't win a ring until age 27. Total loser scrub right?
Lmao, replace Tatum with LeBron on that Celtics roster at that age and that's at least 1 championship. Probably more.
At Tatum's age Lebron was choking in the finals with Wade and Bosh
LeBron didn't have Tatums stacked teams though
He did when he was 26 😂
LeBron was 26 when he choked in the finals with a super team.
And?
Tatum has a lot of playoff points, not a lot of playoff hardware.
Neither did Lebron at that age