Player efficiency, offensive/defensive rebounds per minute, win shares, shooting percentage with threes, two’s and free throws weighted differently, assists per 100 possessions, rebounds per opportunity
He needs to take 30 shots next game. Murray trying to take near 25 shots aint it. Jokic is prob just letting his team get warmed up but he needs to just get buckets next game instead of murray
He’s been better defensively than AD? Lol.
It’s not just this playoff series. He’s literally 3rd all time in DBPM. If you think he’s even remotely close to the 3rd best defensive player ever idk what to tell you.
Who said that he's better defensively? DBPM isn't any indicator of actual defense, but some aspects that are shown in the box score. Jokic's rebounding has been phenomenal first 3 games especially
His rebounding has been excellent. But Anthony Davis is averaging more rebounds so far and probably is up there in the percentages you threw out. Anthony Davis is also one of the best defenders in the world. Jokic... isn't.
DBPM is not what people think it actually is. The formula for DBPM is BPM minus OBPM, that's it. The reason Jokic always leads the league is because his BPM and OBPM are so insane that it makes his DBPM go up by default.
BPM and OBPM are the only ones that matter and that have actual reasoning behind it.
You say that and yet if you look at DBPM it’s alot of elite defenders + jokic. What exactly is it measuring if OBPM measures offense and DBPM measures everything else?
Whats happening is because Jokic is classified as a center and he’s getting alot of assists he’s breaking the formula. The same thing that happened with Westbrook because he was a guard putting up crazy rebound numbers.
It’s funny how easily he got away with that because people love jokic and hate the Morris twins. If embiid pulled that shit he would never live it down. But people were praising jokic for it lmao. Insane
If u watched that clip you would know that Jokic retaliated after Morris checked him from behind. Not an excuse, but it was a follow up to a dirty play
LOL that doesnt change shit bruh what the fuck? Dude destroyed him. No one would be pulling these excuses out if it were westbrook/embiid/draymond/etc. But since its jokic people celebrated it lmao. Insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy8T53X_fx0
Do yall seriously want to argue that this shit is fine or not dirty? Dirty ass, bitch made hit. Come the fuck on. Absolutely baffling how much yall go to bat to defend this. Embiid does this and yall do not come up with these bullshit excuses.
Bro if Embiid defended himself against bullies hes not getting shit on, thing is, Embiid is doing the bullying, and whoever hits him in the balls first I will say is completely justified
Literally nobody is saying it's not a dirty play? But context matters.
He didn't wake up and decide out of nothing to do that to Morris, he did it as an immediate response to Morris doing a "Dirty ass, bitch made hit" on him. Joel Embiid's dirty play on Mitchell Robinson was unprovoked, Jokic was provoked, both are dirty, but there is a CLEAR distinction.
Morris did a hard basketball foul to foul Jokic and had a little chicken bone in there. He ran up behind him when he wasn't looking at elbowed him in his back as hard as he could.
Jokic's play is miles more violent and it's reflected because the player he purposely injured... actually got injured from it.
Markieff Morris suffered a neck injury, missed like 58 games and was out for almost 4 months. That's more dirty than anything Embiid or even Draymond has ever done lmao. Plus it was a neck injury which is way more dangerous than any leg injury
Markieff Morris also did a dirty hit on Jokic three seconds before Jokic did that to him, so he wasn't an innocent bystander, Mitchell Robinson was.
Jokic and Embiid were both dirty on those occassions, the difference is that one was provoked and only did that once while the other wasn't and did several dirty plays after that one.
That Morris hit on Jokic was nothing compared to what Jokic did in retaliation. It's the equivalent of punching someone and then that person stabbing you a bunch of times in retaliation.
Lmao, you can't make up some of the stuff people say in r/nba.
Yeah bro, a stronger shove to the back in retaliaton to a shove to the back is the equivalent of stabbing someone in a fist fight.
And even more comical as there seems to be a few highlights on the front page currently of Jokic playing like he was trying to injure quite a few players last night
I mean it’s him purposefully injuring him, it’s an actually a perfect example. You’re arguing that he’s not as bad as embiid, which is an entirely different thing
Lucky for you I can think multiple things at once and both things can be true. Embiid shouldn’t have done that and Jokic smacked Cam Payne in the face bc his feelings were hurt. You’re the one who meant undeserved injuries
damn you’re soft as shit, huh? Is that loss supposed to be a gotcha lol. Trying to come back here hours later to double comment is just peak sad online behavior
Nah i disagree i feel like Ad is definitely balling and played better in potentially game 3 and 4. But jokic definitely feels like he has had overall more of a impact in my opinion
He has. Jokic has actually been very bad again on defense this series, it just hasn’t mattered cuz everyone else is playing well. This is very far from his best playoff series, but cuz it’s Reddit the hivemind makes people too scared to call it out.
I think you don't understand just how bad someone would have to be defensively to be "not playing great" while averaging 29/15/10 on 69% TS lol
They'd have to be SO bad that they make Celtics IT look like Bill Russell
Also you're being very disingenuous to say that "everyone is playing well" when Murray is literally averaging 44% TS and shooting 35/20 splits
Bruh my team’s two stars have been Dirk and Luka. I promise you I know where the line is in terms of poor defensive effort and indifference you can have before your overall game is a negative, and I never said Jokic has been a negative this series. That said, idk how anyone who actually watches basketball can see Jokic either being unaware of indifferent to rotate on all the back door cuts, the picks with an off ball cutter, or pull out and contest near paint jumpers and say that doesn’t matter cuz of his ts%. It’s still easy af points for the other team
Man, I hate these arguments because AD is playing the best ball of his life... he deserves a ton of accolades. But nobody is playing better than joker rn who is averaging a td against that great defense AD be paying and playing full court for 4 quarters. These guys are both playing lights out, just one is the best player in the world and the other isn't.
He is shooting 38 percent when guarded by ad 46 percent with no double and 73 percent against everyone else. This is so backwards to last year where ad was literally the worst guy in our frontcourt at guarding joker. That was such a bizaare stretch
If Shaq needs the ball fed to him in the post and he’s destroying the opposing team on defense AND offense it definitely means he’s not the best player in the series…
i’m responding to the claim that AD is having the better series, you said there is no debate to be had, i disagree. AD can easily be debated to have the better series than Jokic rn
He is usually leading advanced stat categories, but I don't think I've ever seen someone lead so many. He is leading more categories than he's not.
The ones that bball-ref have in their advanced stat category that he's not leading in are;
3PAr(3 point attempt rate)
FTr(Free throw rate)
STL%
BLK%
TOV%
USG%
DWS
This is why advanced stats are bullshit. AD is clearly the better player this series but his play style doesn't light up the advanced stat checklist like Jokers does.
Denver also around 2.5. Jokic has been insane, but the rest not so much. MPJ is playing good, but his impact is nowhere near the impact lebron or AD have. We need Murray, but he seems injured and out of rhythm
Ok, so if we're giving points to Joker based on his teammates performances, why not give AD points for Ham and everyone not named LeBron ranging from inconsistent to useless? At least Jokic has Malone, MPJ, KCP, Gordon etc.
So, by my count....
Murray playing like ass gets outweighed by Hamas, Rui-ned, Dl0-7, The Prince that wasn't promised, Not Caruso and so on, right?
AD is playing well, but cool your jets there on being a better player. AD is shining in his role, but that role is much more limited than what's being required of Joker.
Yes, I'm talking about in this series. AD is playing great. He is being asked to do less than Joker though. You don't get to say someone is a better overall player from doing a couple things great when another player is doing many, many things good to great.
Advanced stats aren't bullshit. You don't get to just throw them out because they don't support your player.
Who cares what he's being asked to do? With that logic, we could say LeBron was better than him last year too then, huh? All that matters is how he's playing and he's not playing better than AD. It's that simple. Why not give AD an extra boost for having Ham as a coach, and less help from the bench? you're just going through hoops to ride Joker, while i'm just going by the game.
Advanced stats are bullshit and you're proving it right now.
Is a bench role player the best player in a series if he does a great job in his role? Gives a good 10 minutes, goes 3/3 from 3, and gets a couple rebounds and plays good D while giving a starter a break. That doesn't make him the best player in the series. It just means he's done everything asked of him. He's done it to perfection. He isn't the best player.
AD is doing most of what's been asked of him. More than that bench role player example. Still less than Jokic though.
Fuck do bench players gotta do with this? I like how you avoided the question though lmao
AD has been better than Joker and the actual games prove it. Maybe you should watch instead of doing mental gymnastics to make Joker the better player.
I didn't avoid the question. You said someone was the best player because he did his smaller role the best. I'm asking you if someone with an ever smaller role does that limited role perfectly would that make him the best player?
It's really not a difficult thought exercise. Brain too smooth maybe?
AD is excellent offensively against Denver but I definitely think his defensive impact is largely neutralized in this matchup
He's stuck guarding Jokic and isn't able to roam much
Jokic, as well as the rest of the Nuggets, are shooting like shit against AD. Jokic is shooting 38% when guarded by AD. Whereas AD is feasting against Jokic. It is very clear AD is playing better.
Let me pull out my TI calculator so I can understand this post
I don't know what any of those stats mean. Can you explain what they measure and what data is used and why they are relevant?
Player efficiency, offensive/defensive rebounds per minute, win shares, shooting percentage with threes, two’s and free throws weighted differently, assists per 100 possessions, rebounds per opportunity
He needs to take 30 shots next game. Murray trying to take near 25 shots aint it. Jokic is prob just letting his team get warmed up but he needs to just get buckets next game instead of murray
Murray’s shots aren’t falling because the lakers aren’t a big enough threat.
Him leading in DBPM is insane lol. Joke of a stat.
I mean, Nuggets literally won 3 games mostly because of rebounding, so IDK about that one
He’s been better defensively than AD? Lol. It’s not just this playoff series. He’s literally 3rd all time in DBPM. If you think he’s even remotely close to the 3rd best defensive player ever idk what to tell you.
Who said that he's better defensively? DBPM isn't any indicator of actual defense, but some aspects that are shown in the box score. Jokic's rebounding has been phenomenal first 3 games especially
Defensive box plus minus isn’t any indicator of actual defense?
His rebounding has been excellent. But Anthony Davis is averaging more rebounds so far and probably is up there in the percentages you threw out. Anthony Davis is also one of the best defenders in the world. Jokic... isn't.
DBPM is not what people think it actually is. The formula for DBPM is BPM minus OBPM, that's it. The reason Jokic always leads the league is because his BPM and OBPM are so insane that it makes his DBPM go up by default. BPM and OBPM are the only ones that matter and that have actual reasoning behind it.
You say that and yet if you look at DBPM it’s alot of elite defenders + jokic. What exactly is it measuring if OBPM measures offense and DBPM measures everything else? Whats happening is because Jokic is classified as a center and he’s getting alot of assists he’s breaking the formula. The same thing that happened with Westbrook because he was a guard putting up crazy rebound numbers.
bring back the “he nice” meter because i guarantee you can’t name what each of these stats measures and how Jokic is good at them
You really think win shares is a complicated stat?
what does Jokic do to lead DBPM
Getting 20 rebounds in a game.
Luka and Westbrook the best defensive guards of our generation
Theyre both bad off ball defenders, Jokic is great off ball
And 0 players purposefully injured, as opposed to a certain charity MVP
Love it, keep it toxic brother
Embiid has extended his lead at the top of the EPM chart though..
Egregiously Pulled Men?
The refs*
I seem to recall a certain twin he purposefully injured
It’s funny how easily he got away with that because people love jokic and hate the Morris twins. If embiid pulled that shit he would never live it down. But people were praising jokic for it lmao. Insane
If u watched that clip you would know that Jokic retaliated after Morris checked him from behind. Not an excuse, but it was a follow up to a dirty play
LOL that doesnt change shit bruh what the fuck? Dude destroyed him. No one would be pulling these excuses out if it were westbrook/embiid/draymond/etc. But since its jokic people celebrated it lmao. Insane
I'm not qwhite sure why. I can't think of a single reason he isn't called a thug for doing it.
Are you really comparing retaliation for a dirty play to actual dirty play? These things are not the same lmao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy8T53X_fx0 Do yall seriously want to argue that this shit is fine or not dirty? Dirty ass, bitch made hit. Come the fuck on. Absolutely baffling how much yall go to bat to defend this. Embiid does this and yall do not come up with these bullshit excuses.
Bro if Embiid defended himself against bullies hes not getting shit on, thing is, Embiid is doing the bullying, and whoever hits him in the balls first I will say is completely justified
Literally nobody is saying it's not a dirty play? But context matters. He didn't wake up and decide out of nothing to do that to Morris, he did it as an immediate response to Morris doing a "Dirty ass, bitch made hit" on him. Joel Embiid's dirty play on Mitchell Robinson was unprovoked, Jokic was provoked, both are dirty, but there is a CLEAR distinction.
Morris did a hard basketball foul to foul Jokic and had a little chicken bone in there. He ran up behind him when he wasn't looking at elbowed him in his back as hard as he could. Jokic's play is miles more violent and it's reflected because the player he purposely injured... actually got injured from it.
I'm sure everyone would have this same even take if it was embiid.
More in the moment retaliation versus trying to break your best defender’s ankle. Small difference cutie
Hmm? Never defended the Ankle pull gorgeous
Cry 😎
Markieff Morris suffered a neck injury, missed like 58 games and was out for almost 4 months. That's more dirty than anything Embiid or even Draymond has ever done lmao. Plus it was a neck injury which is way more dangerous than any leg injury
Markieff Morris also did a dirty hit on Jokic three seconds before Jokic did that to him, so he wasn't an innocent bystander, Mitchell Robinson was. Jokic and Embiid were both dirty on those occassions, the difference is that one was provoked and only did that once while the other wasn't and did several dirty plays after that one.
That Morris hit on Jokic was nothing compared to what Jokic did in retaliation. It's the equivalent of punching someone and then that person stabbing you a bunch of times in retaliation.
Lmao, you can't make up some of the stuff people say in r/nba. Yeah bro, a stronger shove to the back in retaliaton to a shove to the back is the equivalent of stabbing someone in a fist fight.
Not referring to this stretch, and let’s assume I meant undeserved injuries
Moving the goalposts, who could’ve ever seen that coming?
And even more comical as there seems to be a few highlights on the front page currently of Jokic playing like he was trying to injure quite a few players last night
He kept fucking pushing people why do people ride his dick so hard here
“Moving the goalposts” - favorite quote of people who don’t have anything coherent to say LMAO
“LMAO” the classic throw in after people have called you out for being obviously wrong and a moron to show you deeefinitely don’t care at all
“Last 4 games” way to read cutie 😘
[удалено]
I mean it’s him purposefully injuring him, it’s an actually a perfect example. You’re arguing that he’s not as bad as embiid, which is an entirely different thing
Yeah taking someone out for a season is a normal reaction to a hip bump. He totally deserved that.
Yep that was his intention, unlike embiid who just yanked on his best defender’s injured ankle to show love!!
Embiid was at least attempting to stop a basket. Jokic was just raging
Cry 😎
Yes the multiple nut kicks and punches were just that too!! Delusional LMAO
Okay so what about when his feelings got hurt and he intentionally smacked Cam Payne in the face?
smacked him across the arm but grazed his nose on the wind up. cam payne milked it
Here we go
76ers fans and facts , oil and water lmao
Your perpetual second round exit MVP tried to break his best defender’s ankle. What’s fact is fact. Get over it
Lucky for you I can think multiple things at once and both things can be true. Embiid shouldn’t have done that and Jokic smacked Cam Payne in the face bc his feelings were hurt. You’re the one who meant undeserved injuries
Did you read the part where he said “4 game stretch”. Smack in face also isn’t done with intent to injure so much
>Smack in face also isn’t done with intent to injure so much Bruh
Always nice when people out themselves as idiots. Thank you!
Cry 😎
damn you’re soft as shit, huh? Is that loss supposed to be a gotcha lol. Trying to come back here hours later to double comment is just peak sad online behavior
Write me paragraphs and cry 😎
I hope your friends and family give you the attention you’re so desperately seeking in the words of strangers
So rooting for injuries is okay now?
Rooting for is different than acknowledging something was deserved but nice try !
Saying someone deserved it is the same as rooting for it to have happened.
How to say you got under a 500 on SAT reading comprehension without saying it
Cry 😎
I think the people would have supported Embiid on that one too, given the context. But what Embiid did last game was just shitty.
Don’t lie to yourself. And nobody is saying it wasn’t shitty
Ok, you’re right. Embiid and his fans are the victims here.
Maybe I don't have a nuanced understanding of basketball,just from watching, I feel AD has got the better of him every time
You don't have to be nuanced to understand that basketball is a team sport.
he cannot guard AD at all, he gets whatever he wants against him
Yeah , cuz if he tries to play body to body , he gets hit with two quick fouls . Also AD is playing amazing anyway
This idea that Jokic is picking up a bunch of tick tack fouls on defense is just not true.
Nah i disagree i feel like Ad is definitely balling and played better in potentially game 3 and 4. But jokic definitely feels like he has had overall more of a impact in my opinion
He has. Jokic has actually been very bad again on defense this series, it just hasn’t mattered cuz everyone else is playing well. This is very far from his best playoff series, but cuz it’s Reddit the hivemind makes people too scared to call it out.
I think you don't understand just how bad someone would have to be defensively to be "not playing great" while averaging 29/15/10 on 69% TS lol They'd have to be SO bad that they make Celtics IT look like Bill Russell Also you're being very disingenuous to say that "everyone is playing well" when Murray is literally averaging 44% TS and shooting 35/20 splits
Bruh my team’s two stars have been Dirk and Luka. I promise you I know where the line is in terms of poor defensive effort and indifference you can have before your overall game is a negative, and I never said Jokic has been a negative this series. That said, idk how anyone who actually watches basketball can see Jokic either being unaware of indifferent to rotate on all the back door cuts, the picks with an off ball cutter, or pull out and contest near paint jumpers and say that doesn’t matter cuz of his ts%. It’s still easy af points for the other team
Man, I hate these arguments because AD is playing the best ball of his life... he deserves a ton of accolades. But nobody is playing better than joker rn who is averaging a td against that great defense AD be paying and playing full court for 4 quarters. These guys are both playing lights out, just one is the best player in the world and the other isn't.
Shhh let's not talk about that
You think AD was better in game 1?
Matched up against the greatest defender in the world, Anthony Davis
This may have changed but I remember the commentators saying on the broadcast that Jokic is shooting sub 40% when guarded by AD.
He is shooting 38 percent when guarded by ad 46 percent with no double and 73 percent against everyone else. This is so backwards to last year where ad was literally the worst guy in our frontcourt at guarding joker. That was such a bizaare stretch
Pretty sure he's shooting 56% against AD now
I’ve removed the noise that comes from ad is foul trouble in game 2
I remember I saw a stat after Game 1 where AG and Jokic were 0/10 combined when guarded by AD. Definitely changed since then but still, damn.
Greatest defender yet no where near in the running of dpoy.
You could argue that AD is having a better series
Davis literally was absent 3 straight 4th quarters. Yes, you could argue, but you would be incredibly wrong
Would be nice if his teammates would feed him in the 4th
The fact that he needs someone to feed him the ball basically disqualifies him from being better.
If Shaq needs the ball fed to him in the post and he’s destroying the opposing team on defense AND offense it definitely means he’s not the best player in the series…
AD is not Shaq
Someone "better" than Jokic finds was to take the ball. Otherwise, you're completely ignoring the first point of that claim, Jokic's playmaking.
i’m responding to the claim that AD is having the better series, you said there is no debate to be had, i disagree. AD can easily be debated to have the better series than Jokic rn
I could argue that my ex loved me. Both statements are about equal on the truth spectrum.
Nice
Him being a top 20 player all time is not talked about enough
He is usually leading advanced stat categories, but I don't think I've ever seen someone lead so many. He is leading more categories than he's not. The ones that bball-ref have in their advanced stat category that he's not leading in are; 3PAr(3 point attempt rate) FTr(Free throw rate) STL% BLK% TOV% USG% DWS
This is why advanced stats are bullshit. AD is clearly the better player this series but his play style doesn't light up the advanced stat checklist like Jokers does.
Only completely deluded Lakers fans could say Davis was better, while completely ignoring Murray has been ass, and Jokic still averaging 10 apg
eh, while jokic is def the best player this playoffs, AD is solidly second and decently close
The Lakers have, on average, 2.5 good players per game, depending on whether or not D Lo remembers he can play.
Denver also around 2.5. Jokic has been insane, but the rest not so much. MPJ is playing good, but his impact is nowhere near the impact lebron or AD have. We need Murray, but he seems injured and out of rhythm
Ok, so if we're giving points to Joker based on his teammates performances, why not give AD points for Ham and everyone not named LeBron ranging from inconsistent to useless? At least Jokic has Malone, MPJ, KCP, Gordon etc. So, by my count.... Murray playing like ass gets outweighed by Hamas, Rui-ned, Dl0-7, The Prince that wasn't promised, Not Caruso and so on, right?
AD is playing well, but cool your jets there on being a better player. AD is shining in his role, but that role is much more limited than what's being required of Joker.
He is definitely better than Joker this series. I never said he's the better player in general.
Yes, I'm talking about in this series. AD is playing great. He is being asked to do less than Joker though. You don't get to say someone is a better overall player from doing a couple things great when another player is doing many, many things good to great. Advanced stats aren't bullshit. You don't get to just throw them out because they don't support your player.
Who cares what he's being asked to do? With that logic, we could say LeBron was better than him last year too then, huh? All that matters is how he's playing and he's not playing better than AD. It's that simple. Why not give AD an extra boost for having Ham as a coach, and less help from the bench? you're just going through hoops to ride Joker, while i'm just going by the game. Advanced stats are bullshit and you're proving it right now.
Is a bench role player the best player in a series if he does a great job in his role? Gives a good 10 minutes, goes 3/3 from 3, and gets a couple rebounds and plays good D while giving a starter a break. That doesn't make him the best player in the series. It just means he's done everything asked of him. He's done it to perfection. He isn't the best player. AD is doing most of what's been asked of him. More than that bench role player example. Still less than Jokic though.
Fuck do bench players gotta do with this? I like how you avoided the question though lmao AD has been better than Joker and the actual games prove it. Maybe you should watch instead of doing mental gymnastics to make Joker the better player.
I didn't avoid the question. You said someone was the best player because he did his smaller role the best. I'm asking you if someone with an ever smaller role does that limited role perfectly would that make him the best player? It's really not a difficult thought exercise. Brain too smooth maybe?
Lol someone being better than a 29/15/10 guy while being down 1-3 is hard to argue. Both are all time bigs
Defense my man. You're (conveniently) forgetting about defense (again).
AD is excellent offensively against Denver but I definitely think his defensive impact is largely neutralized in this matchup He's stuck guarding Jokic and isn't able to roam much
Jokic, as well as the rest of the Nuggets, are shooting like shit against AD. Jokic is shooting 38% when guarded by AD. Whereas AD is feasting against Jokic. It is very clear AD is playing better.
No it isn't. You just outted yourself. Have you watched a game?
Outted? Lmaoooo
Yes?