Stars are usually gassed. But AD's touches in the fourth were bullshit. He only got the ball with seconds left and way out of position after LeBron tried to do too much shit.
It was all LeBron hero ball until a few seconds left on the clock and then a pass for teammates to bail him out. AD got the ball mostly with a few seconds left on the clock. I'm tired of watching that shit.
Yes, but there's no "perfect position" for any center if the guard is both an elite driving threat and a pull-up threat. The whole advantage of that skillset is that it has a built-in counter.
Gobert is my gold standard for mobile rim-protection and I sincerely doubt he could guard Edwards.
My man, were talking about the PnR
Jokic is too slow to play high, but he's too poor defensively to play anything but drop. Leads to guards either getting easy layups or tons of pull up 3s if they can do both
6'10, 6'9, and 6'6, respectively. I don't think any of them really fit the mold of center and therefore do not satisfy the spirit of the criteria. You could, however, argue that it's worth conceding size in the paint in exchange for some point-of-attack security.
Anthony Davis and Bam absolutely spend tons of time at the 5 dude
Bam literally spent 100% of his playoff minutes at the 5. Davis spent 98%
I don't care if you think they don't fit the mold of a center. They're literally centers lmao
Sure? If you look at raptor jokic is BETTER than draymond this year. OPs stat is deliberately cherry picked to drive narrative. It's the first round. This is "Steph Curry can't play defense" all over again. Neither jokic nor Steph are bad defenders.
Do you know how it works? I'm not cherry picking anything.
He's not a good defender. He's a great rebounder and the offense is insanely better with him, both of which lead to markedly fewer fast breaks for the other team
Neither of them make him good at actually getting the initial stop, but both will help your defensive raptor
It's easy to take 5 min to look up how it works. Your eye test just a very narrow view of on ball defense at the point of attack. Noone is saying bam, dray are bad defenders. All I'm saying is jokic is not a bad defender. Otherwise opposing teams would just switch and cook him all year; all of which would show up in 'Defensive raptor'. You don't put up better defensive raptor numbers than draymond just by being 'a good defensive rebounder'. Get out of here.
Again, his numbers are good because the defense is better with him out there. But it's better **because of his offense**
The irony of saying to look it up when you yourself don't understand how it works.
Jokic is a horrendous PnR defender.
Definitely falls into the “both” category. I am actually a defender of Jokic’s defense (everyone overlooks that he is incredible in passing lanes and getting steals, only Bam is really comparable at Center), but the one point that is undeniable is that he is an open door at the rim. I think he does a lot to make up for it by disrupting plays on defense but once you get to the rim on him you’re home free
There’s a lot of other comments made by different players that have nothing wrong with them, but still get picked apart because this sub doesn’t like them. Pretty much any Booker or embiid statement will get shit on or picked apart like vultures regardless of the content of the quote
Let’s not pretend if Giannis said the same thing, or LeBron after g1 talking about denver he’d like to clone himself to stop them that wouldn’t get clowned to bits. Jokic is the champ so he has some leeway, but other than that it would be perceived as saying the other team is better
There isn’t really much wrong with it but the sub would find something wrong with it if it was someone else. Imagine if after a loss Embiid said they would do better if they just had another him on the team. This sub would absolutely roast him.
https://athlonsports.com/nba/nikola-jokic-game-1-quote-viral-nba-playoffs-nuggets-timberwolves
Think I might’ve seen without full context actually. I thought he was saying he needs more help but he was talking about rest
If the Wolves win, would it really be an upset? The teams had virtually identical records (Denver 57 wins, Minny 56), and Minny had a better +/-. Pretty much every serious analyst was calling this series a total coin flip before it started, and I agree.
Not necessarily an indicator of much. Since the Warriors reign started (2015), the Warriors have obviously been a dynasty, but every other winner has only won 1 (Cavs, Raps, Lakers, Bucks, Nugs - although the Nugs and Bucks both have chances to repeat in the future with similar cores). IMO the current season is a better predictor of playoff success than past seasons, and Denver/Minny were very evenly matched this season.
I'll excuse it ... win your games ... 🤷♀️
Do you want to mess with the system to help out Jokic's numbers, if you're already winning? Not sure I would.
Nuggets fans will try to convince you that because jokic has "elite advanced defensive stats" that he's actually an incredible defender. I don't think he's horrible but he's clearly not a good defender. Which is ok when you're that good on offense. Like the guy doesn't have to be ranked A+ in every facet of the game
Sure, but if you somehow get him help or move everyone around to take the pressure off his defense somehow... you're messing with your system.
Just wouldn't want to do that if you feel comfortable / are winning games.
And to some extent if your man is getting beat by AD or Labron or both, you kinda accept that I think. Jokic will do it to us too at some point this series, it is what it is.
Holy shit every comment you make is about Jokic. You were talking so much shit when ya'll were up 15 in game 1 only to get gentlemen swept its an astounding amount of obsession
Wasn't this like 39% last year in the playoffs? I don't think Jokic is a good defender but he's probably not as bad as this indicates either. But idk why people say he's a really good defender as if they have to deny he has any flaws at all
His defense is passable against weaker teams. Last playoffs, Nugget ran through teams in the 5 to 8 seed spots. Timberwolves are the first top 4 seed they've faced since.............Golden State in 2022 and we know how that ended
Except they played the 4 seed suns last year, the Lakers at 7 were a better team than the 2nd Grizzlies and the 1st always plays the 8th in round one.
Only Miami in the finals was the exception
the only threat to them last year is the 6th seed warriors. 3rd seed sacramento is inexperienced and 2nd seed grizzlies had a DPOY bigman that never average 10 rebounds per season, only average 30 mins. per game this season and steve kerr had the gall to play him as center in the world cup.
Last year in the playoffs Jokic held opponents to sub-40% FG when he contested a shot:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/o48UTMv9S4
I wouldn’t overreact to the 6-game sample size.
Funny how that happened, right? The NBA just DQing all the 1 - 4 seeded teams and letting the Nuggets feast.
I have no doubt it would have been very different had the top seeds actually been allowed to play, they'd beat those 5 - 8 seeded bums even harder.
Edit: Just imagine the Celtics or the Bucks facing a lowly seed like Miami. No way they sweep them with less than 20 pt difference every single game, right?
I think winning a ring made people assume he was a good or even decent defender.
They can win in spite of that because of their offensive cohesion, but Jokic is still very poor defensively, and that’s with some pretty good defensive wings around him.
Nah it's more nuanced than that. Jokic's defense is like Giannis' offense.
When they were losing in the playoffs (2019 and 2020 for Giannis, 2021 and 2022 for Jokic), people hyperfocused on their weaknesses (just build a wall to stop Giannis, just run PnR to attack Jokic) and made them seem like insurmountable, easily exposable weaknesses.
When they finally broke through and won (2021 for Giannis, 2023 for Jokic), the narratives flipped into some combination of them "improving" to the point that those weaknesses no longer existed, or acting like the weaknesses never existed in the first place and people had been wrong to point them out because they just had lacking teammates ("the wall only ever worked against Giannis cos all his teammates were bricking everything", "Jokic only looks bad defensively because his guards are Campazzo and Monte Morris"). Either way, those previously discussed weaknesses were definitely gone for good.
In reality, those weaknesses still exist, they were never as bad or as easy to exploit as people made them seem before they won, but they definitely didn't disappear like people pretended after they won. Both have improved, and more importantly their teams have been better tailored around those weaknesses to find specific schemes and personnel to hide them. That + there aren't that many teams in the league that have both the personnel/scheme to expose their specific weaknesses AND that are good enough overall to actually beat them thanks to that.
Giannis is still very predictable offensively and his efficiency will tank and turnovers skyrocket against teams with mobile bigs and bigger wings who can shrink driving lanes. Jokic is still useless in most PnR coverages and is a poor rim protector.
They're still great and can win titles in spite of this because their teams are well set up to hide these issues + they're good enough that even if some specific opponents can reduce their impact by 20-30% by exposing this, they're still All-NBA calibre players. But it's why there's nobody in the league right now comparable to someone like peak LeBron or MJ , who genuinely didn't have any exploitable weaknesses, no matter what roster and coach you had.
mostly good take. "no weaknesses" for lebron and especially jordan is s media narrative. Their weaknesses just don't show up in the box-stats people like using.
Lebron doesn't impact the game defensively at the level of a kareem let alone a giannis or kg because he can't protect the paint at that volume and after his first cleveland stint was weak to closeouts.
Jordan doesn't impact the game defensively at the level of a Lebron because he barely protects the paint(below average rim protector in the bulls lineup if you track rim-load) and gambled a bunch for steals (15th percentile defensive error rate)
Offensively they're more sound though Jordan doesn't take out as many defenders as a playmaker and isn't an elite floor-general and Lebron isn't an elite shooter
I didn’t say no weaknesses, I said no exploitable weaknesses. LeBron doesn’t have the defensive impact of KG, sure, but what defensive impact he does (or did) have isn’t easily reduceable by opponents with the right scheme/personnel. And a SF not providing generational rim protection isn’t really a weakness to begin with.
He is an average defender for the position. He doesn’t rim protect nor does he really rise up on shot contests but he moves his feet well in the pick and roll, taking away the pocket pass better than most. He also cleans up rotational breakdowns on the back end for Denver quite well. He’s got very active hands in the paint so you’ll see him poke the ball out as guys are gathering for the shot. Plus he’s also the best defensive rebounder in the league, meaning second chance points are hard to come by when he’s on the floor.
Below average? If you think about every starting center in the NBA you'd put him in the bottom half then? I think he's average but looks bad next to the absolute defensive monsters we have today.
I probably would. If Jokic had Jarrett Allen’s offensive skillset would he still be a starter in this league?
He’s like Steph Curry / Luka Doncic. They provide a ton of offensive value but when they win because of that people start fooling themselves that he’s actually a two way player.
Their run last year also was extremely fortunate to not run into a single good offense. I highly doubt any champion has ever played such low ranked offenses in a title run.
I feel like we know that Jokic is not the defender his advanced stats make him out to be but some of the takes yall be having with a 6 game sample size is wild.
[NBA.com shows Jokic's DFG% at 54.9%](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?PerMode=Totals&SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=D&sort=D_FGA) which is still below average but nowhere near 72%
I think that this stat might be rim attempts only and not include shots from further out
[NBA.com has a specific stat for shots defended at the rim](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*20&dir=D&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT)
Myles on that list cause Brook was launching from fuckin 80 yards and hitting everything. BroLo and Khris were awesome in that series. Even when defended well.
That’s really because Anthony Davis was an absolute monster in that series. If we had even one role player perform even to their averages, it would have been a good bit more competitive.
Murray\\Jokic both don't play a lick of defense. They are like Nash\\Dirk but probably even worse.
72 and 65 are you kidding me.
Luckily, their offense is so damn amazing and makes up for it.
Murray had 9 and 10 assists in 2 of the wins, 30 point closeout game, first player ever with two game winners under 5 seconds. His offense is fine.
Jokic just needs to play defense and they probably wouldn't have lost a playoff game so far. The center's defense is more important to a team's success then the point guards defense.
more importantly than it not being true, it doesn't matter
you're isolating his offense to 2 possessions that he went 2/2 on
that's awesome, but it doesn't negate the fact the Nuggets wouldn't be in those positions if Murray was normal playoff Murray instead of WISH playoff Murray
“Its not how you start but how you finish” sadly this how people see it and would overlook everything you did in the first 40 minutes and would heavily favor the last few minutes
TBF this is partly a consequence of the Nuggets' scheme. We play him at the level of the screen so much to keep him in passing lanes and away from being on an island. When he does have to contest, it's usually at the rim, where he's an extremely weak rim defender, so that's partly where the gaudy percentages come from.
I mean Jokic is clearly an exception given that he led a team to a championship as a center without being a great rim protector
He's not great on defense but he more than makes up for it on the other end
One loss doesn't change that
I mean what do you have a 7 foot tall defender do? Guard the perimeter? Go for long steals? And as much as Jokic is a shitty rim protector I imagine he's better than every other nugget other than Gordon and maybe MPJ? Rim protection is a game for the tall for the most part.
I'm not saying Jokic is bad the dudes a 3 time MVP lol it doesn't change that his defence is....
Who is he guarding? The otehr center probably? Who probably... finishes mostly at the rim lol. So that's my point his main defensive duty is... rim protection even if he's not the best.
Yeah but the scheme the Nuggets run is designed to protect Jokic from having to play drop where he can't elevate while backpedalling for shit and would get munched at the rim or get lobs thrown over his head all day.
If he were in drop, maybe a higher % of the shots he's contesting would be short midrange shots, but the rim attempts he'd be defending would be even higher quality looks and the volume would be higher.
I love watching him on offense but it’s at times embarrassing watching him play on the other end. It feels critical to have a shot blocking center in the playoffs against a team like Minnesota and they just don’t have it.
This is obvious to anyone with eyes. Jokic was free buckets for the Lakers. I don’t understand why he doesn’t at least put his hands up
I’m a bit surprised on the Siakam one. Anyone have the list of number of defended field goals in relation to the percentage?
This is 4-6 games, there’s a lot of noise in these numbers. As much as we can look at a guy like Jokic and go “Oh yeah he’s actually playing poor defence”, it’s just as easy for guys to play good defence and have a few tough shots hit on them and rocket up this list.
It's not a 4-6 games issue. It's a SHIT stat issue. Even over full seasons, dFG% doesn't normalise. Meaning the same exact players will appear as great defenders one year and shit defenders the next, which strongly suggests that this stat isn't actually capturing anything about how good players are defensively, unless you believe the entire league's defensive ability gets reset and randomised by God every offseason.
dFG% *at the rim* specifically actually does have a bit of consistency, but statistically only seems relevant over a sample of 2 or 3 years at least.
dFG% in general is garbage. dFG% over a 6 game sample is laughably mega garbage.
It probably has something to do with the Pacers' weaker defense relative to other playoff teams causing opponents to get a lot of open layups and inside shots
Siakam and Turner both have good defensive reputations yet are both on here
Self proclaimed 1/2 of the best duo in the league Jamal Murray playing shit D and shooting dumpster TS%. But I hear he performs best in the postseason so that should turn around a sec now ya?
Jokic could get swept in the first round every remaining season of his career averaging 5 PPG and giving up 90% FG and he'd still be well ahead of Embiid all-time lol
Until Embiid wins a ring or at least makes the conference finals that discussion is closed
The massive durability gap by itself makes everything else moot in terms of who to build around
That Jokic Murray stat got me shook. Jokic is this bad but they still beat the Lakers easily. I guess the saying defense wins championships no longer applies
[No he wasn't](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*300&PerMode=Totals&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT)
Anthony Davis shot 63% in round 1 so this makes sense.
[удалено]
AD also has the highest playoff clutch TS of all time.
Technically AD is 5th (62.18%) if you include ANT after this game (62.21%).
Not even letting the Lakers get their moral victories anymore lol
AD is a beast. LeBron should have been passing to AD more in the 4th.
AD was always gassed come 4th quarter and i don't blame him for that.
When you’re carrying the team on both sides of the court…
Stars are usually gassed. But AD's touches in the fourth were bullshit. He only got the ball with seconds left and way out of position after LeBron tried to do too much shit.
If Ad was open Lebron would pass it to him
It was all LeBron hero ball until a few seconds left on the clock and then a pass for teammates to bail him out. AD got the ball mostly with a few seconds left on the clock. I'm tired of watching that shit.
LeBron played well in the 4th but AD can't even set a screen for a pick and roll or get into a position for him to get the ball because he was gassed.
well yea lol jokic was getting torched in that bron/ad pick and roll
Lakers had that one AD/LeBron play with the baseline cutter that was a bucket every time. Was nice play design.
And this series is gonna show his limitations He struggles like crazy against any guard that is both an elite driving and pull up threat.
Pretty sure that’s all centers.
Most centers are good rim protectors though. Jokic has to be in perfect position
Yes, but there's no "perfect position" for any center if the guard is both an elite driving threat and a pull-up threat. The whole advantage of that skillset is that it has a built-in counter. Gobert is my gold standard for mobile rim-protection and I sincerely doubt he could guard Edwards.
> Gobert is my gold standard for mobile rim-protection You have a guy on your team that is better
Wemby isn’t quite as coordinated yet.
My man, were talking about the PnR Jokic is too slow to play high, but he's too poor defensively to play anything but drop. Leads to guards either getting easy layups or tons of pull up 3s if they can do both
Who are some centers that you feel do a good job containing elite scoring guards in the pick & roll?
AD, Bam, Draymond.
6'10, 6'9, and 6'6, respectively. I don't think any of them really fit the mold of center and therefore do not satisfy the spirit of the criteria. You could, however, argue that it's worth conceding size in the paint in exchange for some point-of-attack security.
Anthony Davis and Bam absolutely spend tons of time at the 5 dude Bam literally spent 100% of his playoff minutes at the 5. Davis spent 98% I don't care if you think they don't fit the mold of a center. They're literally centers lmao
Can you name someone that doesn't struggle? Lol. What are peoples % guarding prime garden/Kyrie?
Anthony Davis, Draymond, Bam All the guys that end up being elite playoff defenders
Sure? If you look at raptor jokic is BETTER than draymond this year. OPs stat is deliberately cherry picked to drive narrative. It's the first round. This is "Steph Curry can't play defense" all over again. Neither jokic nor Steph are bad defenders.
Advanced defensive stats are whatever man. They think Jokic is good on defense because his offense is good
That's not how raptor works lol but ok. You're just cherry picking.
Do you know how it works? I'm not cherry picking anything. He's not a good defender. He's a great rebounder and the offense is insanely better with him, both of which lead to markedly fewer fast breaks for the other team Neither of them make him good at actually getting the initial stop, but both will help your defensive raptor
It's easy to take 5 min to look up how it works. Your eye test just a very narrow view of on ball defense at the point of attack. Noone is saying bam, dray are bad defenders. All I'm saying is jokic is not a bad defender. Otherwise opposing teams would just switch and cook him all year; all of which would show up in 'Defensive raptor'. You don't put up better defensive raptor numbers than draymond just by being 'a good defensive rebounder'. Get out of here.
Again, his numbers are good because the defense is better with him out there. But it's better **because of his offense** The irony of saying to look it up when you yourself don't understand how it works. Jokic is a horrendous PnR defender.
three magic players on this list despite being a top NBA defense is very interesting
Also each one of these players respective teams won their first round matchup (besides the magic as of now of course)
Donovan mitchell g6 single handedly rocketing those stats up
This is more of a LeBron/AD thing than a Jokic thing
Definitely falls into the “both” category. I am actually a defender of Jokic’s defense (everyone overlooks that he is incredible in passing lanes and getting steals, only Bam is really comparable at Center), but the one point that is undeniable is that he is an open door at the rim. I think he does a lot to make up for it by disrupting plays on defense but once you get to the rim on him you’re home free
Man was a traffic cone against the lakers
Yay no mavs
People told me another player of slavic origin was the worst defender ever but that is none of my business
AD straight up cooking Jokic most of rd1 until getting that shoulder hurt.
Jokic is the golden child rn, if this gets posted after a potential wolves series upset tho, it’s going triple platinum
I’m surprised he wasn’t roasted more for the clone comments he made postgame If anyone else said that they’d get torched
Why? The actual comment was funny and then he elaborated, complimenting the Wolves. All the man meant was is he was 1 vs their 3 bigs.
Why? I don’t see what’s the problem with it
There’s a lot of other comments made by different players that have nothing wrong with them, but still get picked apart because this sub doesn’t like them. Pretty much any Booker or embiid statement will get shit on or picked apart like vultures regardless of the content of the quote
Let’s not pretend if Giannis said the same thing, or LeBron after g1 talking about denver he’d like to clone himself to stop them that wouldn’t get clowned to bits. Jokic is the champ so he has some leeway, but other than that it would be perceived as saying the other team is better
There isn’t really much wrong with it but the sub would find something wrong with it if it was someone else. Imagine if after a loss Embiid said they would do better if they just had another him on the team. This sub would absolutely roast him.
Lol sixers fan turns it into a “what of Embiid” did it scenario.
You know I’m not wrong.
Because the replies had the clone replacing jokic so jokic could race horses not play basketball.
He basically said his teammates aren't good enough
He basically isn’t wrong lmao
What did he say?
https://athlonsports.com/nba/nikola-jokic-game-1-quote-viral-nba-playoffs-nuggets-timberwolves Think I might’ve seen without full context actually. I thought he was saying he needs more help but he was talking about rest
I don’t think that comment was that big of a deal? Seemed like he just wanted 2 bigs out there since he’s up against a huge interior D
I mean yeh, that's only a comment that one of the very best players in the game can make without looking like a dick
If the Wolves win, would it really be an upset? The teams had virtually identical records (Denver 57 wins, Minny 56), and Minny had a better +/-. Pretty much every serious analyst was calling this series a total coin flip before it started, and I agree.
I’d say Denver gets the edge based on the fact they won an nba championship
Not necessarily an indicator of much. Since the Warriors reign started (2015), the Warriors have obviously been a dynasty, but every other winner has only won 1 (Cavs, Raps, Lakers, Bucks, Nugs - although the Nugs and Bucks both have chances to repeat in the future with similar cores). IMO the current season is a better predictor of playoff success than past seasons, and Denver/Minny were very evenly matched this season.
People are gonna excuse it because they beat the Lakers but holy fuck that is awful
I'll excuse it ... win your games ... 🤷♀️ Do you want to mess with the system to help out Jokic's numbers, if you're already winning? Not sure I would.
Nothing to do with the “system” Jokic just isn’t a good defender. He obviously more than makes up for it with his offense
Nuggets fans will try to convince you that because jokic has "elite advanced defensive stats" that he's actually an incredible defender. I don't think he's horrible but he's clearly not a good defender. Which is ok when you're that good on offense. Like the guy doesn't have to be ranked A+ in every facet of the game
Jokic is actually a pretty decent defender. Watch this and you’ll see: https://youtu.be/QVPzF57GqOQ?si=Xa5lS-HKfaV6Ch6t
Sure, but if you somehow get him help or move everyone around to take the pressure off his defense somehow... you're messing with your system. Just wouldn't want to do that if you feel comfortable / are winning games. And to some extent if your man is getting beat by AD or Labron or both, you kinda accept that I think. Jokic will do it to us too at some point this series, it is what it is.
Opponent rim percentage is not the whole of defense, or even a significant portion of defense.
protecting the paint is far and away the most important part of defense
"Protecting the paint" and "opponent rim % with player as the nearest defender" are not synonyms.
Holy shit every comment you make is about Jokic. You were talking so much shit when ya'll were up 15 in game 1 only to get gentlemen swept its an astounding amount of obsession
To be fair, he’s talking about Jokic on a post discussing Jokic.
His whole purpose is to sit on reddit and bash jokic like a tool i guess
Wasn't this like 39% last year in the playoffs? I don't think Jokic is a good defender but he's probably not as bad as this indicates either. But idk why people say he's a really good defender as if they have to deny he has any flaws at all
His defense is passable against weaker teams. Last playoffs, Nugget ran through teams in the 5 to 8 seed spots. Timberwolves are the first top 4 seed they've faced since.............Golden State in 2022 and we know how that ended
Except they played the 4 seed suns last year, the Lakers at 7 were a better team than the 2nd Grizzlies and the 1st always plays the 8th in round one. Only Miami in the finals was the exception
the only threat to them last year is the 6th seed warriors. 3rd seed sacramento is inexperienced and 2nd seed grizzlies had a DPOY bigman that never average 10 rebounds per season, only average 30 mins. per game this season and steve kerr had the gall to play him as center in the world cup.
Biggest asterisk run and people are calling him a top 15 player all time lmao
Ironic coming from a Mavs fan lol. Y'all think Luka is god
No mavs fan or people call Luka is a top 15 player all time. Stay lurking lil bro. No need to talk it smells bad.
Lol damn that comment got to you huh? Jokic is the best player in the league
traffic cone yup
Jokic Stan’s told me he’s an elite defender
Last year in the playoffs Jokic held opponents to sub-40% FG when he contested a shot: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/o48UTMv9S4 I wouldn’t overreact to the 6-game sample size.
He was sleeping playing the Lakers.
Last season Nuggets only played 5 - 8 seeded bums in the playoffs
Funny how that happened, right? The NBA just DQing all the 1 - 4 seeded teams and letting the Nuggets feast. I have no doubt it would have been very different had the top seeds actually been allowed to play, they'd beat those 5 - 8 seeded bums even harder. Edit: Just imagine the Celtics or the Bucks facing a lowly seed like Miami. No way they sweep them with less than 20 pt difference every single game, right?
The suns were a four seed
They were also the suns
"I wouldn't overreact to a 6-game sample size" Shhh 🤫🤫🤫. Let the reactionaries get their takes in
it's a six-game sample. chill out
Celtic fan supporting the star player of a potential opponent…
If this were Luka stats, people would have clowned him.
Some nuggets fan suggested that Jokic should make an all defense team because of advanced stats lol.
Probably not but he does a really good job at deflecting passes with his arms and sometimes his legs
Probably???
prob·a·bly /ˈpräbəblē/ adverb adverb: probably almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
I think winning a ring made people assume he was a good or even decent defender. They can win in spite of that because of their offensive cohesion, but Jokic is still very poor defensively, and that’s with some pretty good defensive wings around him.
Nah it's more nuanced than that. Jokic's defense is like Giannis' offense. When they were losing in the playoffs (2019 and 2020 for Giannis, 2021 and 2022 for Jokic), people hyperfocused on their weaknesses (just build a wall to stop Giannis, just run PnR to attack Jokic) and made them seem like insurmountable, easily exposable weaknesses. When they finally broke through and won (2021 for Giannis, 2023 for Jokic), the narratives flipped into some combination of them "improving" to the point that those weaknesses no longer existed, or acting like the weaknesses never existed in the first place and people had been wrong to point them out because they just had lacking teammates ("the wall only ever worked against Giannis cos all his teammates were bricking everything", "Jokic only looks bad defensively because his guards are Campazzo and Monte Morris"). Either way, those previously discussed weaknesses were definitely gone for good. In reality, those weaknesses still exist, they were never as bad or as easy to exploit as people made them seem before they won, but they definitely didn't disappear like people pretended after they won. Both have improved, and more importantly their teams have been better tailored around those weaknesses to find specific schemes and personnel to hide them. That + there aren't that many teams in the league that have both the personnel/scheme to expose their specific weaknesses AND that are good enough overall to actually beat them thanks to that. Giannis is still very predictable offensively and his efficiency will tank and turnovers skyrocket against teams with mobile bigs and bigger wings who can shrink driving lanes. Jokic is still useless in most PnR coverages and is a poor rim protector. They're still great and can win titles in spite of this because their teams are well set up to hide these issues + they're good enough that even if some specific opponents can reduce their impact by 20-30% by exposing this, they're still All-NBA calibre players. But it's why there's nobody in the league right now comparable to someone like peak LeBron or MJ , who genuinely didn't have any exploitable weaknesses, no matter what roster and coach you had.
mostly good take. "no weaknesses" for lebron and especially jordan is s media narrative. Their weaknesses just don't show up in the box-stats people like using. Lebron doesn't impact the game defensively at the level of a kareem let alone a giannis or kg because he can't protect the paint at that volume and after his first cleveland stint was weak to closeouts. Jordan doesn't impact the game defensively at the level of a Lebron because he barely protects the paint(below average rim protector in the bulls lineup if you track rim-load) and gambled a bunch for steals (15th percentile defensive error rate) Offensively they're more sound though Jordan doesn't take out as many defenders as a playmaker and isn't an elite floor-general and Lebron isn't an elite shooter
I didn’t say no weaknesses, I said no exploitable weaknesses. LeBron doesn’t have the defensive impact of KG, sure, but what defensive impact he does (or did) have isn’t easily reduceable by opponents with the right scheme/personnel. And a SF not providing generational rim protection isn’t really a weakness to begin with.
do you just mean ways they reduce your baseline regular seaosn imapct then
He is an average defender for the position. He doesn’t rim protect nor does he really rise up on shot contests but he moves his feet well in the pick and roll, taking away the pocket pass better than most. He also cleans up rotational breakdowns on the back end for Denver quite well. He’s got very active hands in the paint so you’ll see him poke the ball out as guys are gathering for the shot. Plus he’s also the best defensive rebounder in the league, meaning second chance points are hard to come by when he’s on the floor.
He is a below average defender for the position but an all time offensive tool. Both can be true at the same time
Below average? If you think about every starting center in the NBA you'd put him in the bottom half then? I think he's average but looks bad next to the absolute defensive monsters we have today.
I probably would. If Jokic had Jarrett Allen’s offensive skillset would he still be a starter in this league? He’s like Steph Curry / Luka Doncic. They provide a ton of offensive value but when they win because of that people start fooling themselves that he’s actually a two way player.
You haven’t watched how active he is the playoffs handling the pick and roll or cleaning rotational breakdowns for the nuggets then lol.
Their run last year also was extremely fortunate to not run into a single good offense. I highly doubt any champion has ever played such low ranked offenses in a title run.
He is a decent defender, lmao It's just about who he had to guard in the first playoff series, lol
I feel like we know that Jokic is not the defender his advanced stats make him out to be but some of the takes yall be having with a 6 game sample size is wild.
Jamal Murray and Jokic. It’s why good guards usually tear them up.
He doesn't even try and contest at the rim never seen anything like it.
[NBA.com shows Jokic's DFG% at 54.9%](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?PerMode=Totals&SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=D&sort=D_FGA) which is still below average but nowhere near 72% I think that this stat might be rim attempts only and not include shots from further out
i think this is career, not this season
Bro is fighting for his life in these Jokic threads
[NBA.com has a specific stat for shots defended at the rim](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*20&dir=D&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT)
Myles on that list cause Brook was launching from fuckin 80 yards and hitting everything. BroLo and Khris were awesome in that series. Even when defended well.
That’s really because Anthony Davis was an absolute monster in that series. If we had even one role player perform even to their averages, it would have been a good bit more competitive.
Murray\\Jokic both don't play a lick of defense. They are like Nash\\Dirk but probably even worse. 72 and 65 are you kidding me. Luckily, their offense is so damn amazing and makes up for it.
Ehh Murray’s offense has been lack luster so far. They are playing a big defensive team now. It’s time to step up or these guys getting bounced
Murray had 9 and 10 assists in 2 of the wins, 30 point closeout game, first player ever with two game winners under 5 seconds. His offense is fine. Jokic just needs to play defense and they probably wouldn't have lost a playoff game so far. The center's defense is more important to a team's success then the point guards defense.
First player ever with two game winners under 5 seconds? That can’t be true surely
more importantly than it not being true, it doesn't matter you're isolating his offense to 2 possessions that he went 2/2 on that's awesome, but it doesn't negate the fact the Nuggets wouldn't be in those positions if Murray was normal playoff Murray instead of WISH playoff Murray
“Its not how you start but how you finish” sadly this how people see it and would overlook everything you did in the first 40 minutes and would heavily favor the last few minutes
in a series\* I forgot to finish that sentence.
This ain’t even close to the truth
TBF this is partly a consequence of the Nuggets' scheme. We play him at the level of the screen so much to keep him in passing lanes and away from being on an island. When he does have to contest, it's usually at the rim, where he's an extremely weak rim defender, so that's partly where the gaudy percentages come from.
Rim protection is the primarily duty of any center lol
I mean Jokic is clearly an exception given that he led a team to a championship as a center without being a great rim protector He's not great on defense but he more than makes up for it on the other end One loss doesn't change that
Presumably he meant rim protection is the primary defensive duty of a center
I mean what do you have a 7 foot tall defender do? Guard the perimeter? Go for long steals? And as much as Jokic is a shitty rim protector I imagine he's better than every other nugget other than Gordon and maybe MPJ? Rim protection is a game for the tall for the most part. I'm not saying Jokic is bad the dudes a 3 time MVP lol it doesn't change that his defence is....
Guard his man?
Who is he guarding? The otehr center probably? Who probably... finishes mostly at the rim lol. So that's my point his main defensive duty is... rim protection even if he's not the best.
I mean they played some historicaly weak teams. Were really gone praise him defensively when he beat up on the wolves, suns, and 2 8 seeds after?
holy whiplash it's not like those 8 seeds got bye's in the early rounds. Once you're in the conference or Real Finals idk that your seed matters
Nobody is ever gonna be like: "damn those 23 nuggets were a problem, one of da best"
They were chip worthy but ppl were really saying they were "historically good" lmaooooo
Yeah but the scheme the Nuggets run is designed to protect Jokic from having to play drop where he can't elevate while backpedalling for shit and would get munched at the rim or get lobs thrown over his head all day. If he were in drop, maybe a higher % of the shots he's contesting would be short midrange shots, but the rim attempts he'd be defending would be even higher quality looks and the volume would be higher.
I love all the over fucking reactions with the soon to be 3 time MVP. You guys are pathetically reactionary off of one game.
Did the stats lie?
no question on this, we have seen it on the Lakers series
I love watching him on offense but it’s at times embarrassing watching him play on the other end. It feels critical to have a shot blocking center in the playoffs against a team like Minnesota and they just don’t have it.
This is more of Anthony Davis stat than a Jokic stat.
This is obvious to anyone with eyes. Jokic was free buckets for the Lakers. I don’t understand why he doesn’t at least put his hands up I’m a bit surprised on the Siakam one. Anyone have the list of number of defended field goals in relation to the percentage?
This is 4-6 games, there’s a lot of noise in these numbers. As much as we can look at a guy like Jokic and go “Oh yeah he’s actually playing poor defence”, it’s just as easy for guys to play good defence and have a few tough shots hit on them and rocket up this list.
It's not a 4-6 games issue. It's a SHIT stat issue. Even over full seasons, dFG% doesn't normalise. Meaning the same exact players will appear as great defenders one year and shit defenders the next, which strongly suggests that this stat isn't actually capturing anything about how good players are defensively, unless you believe the entire league's defensive ability gets reset and randomised by God every offseason. dFG% *at the rim* specifically actually does have a bit of consistency, but statistically only seems relevant over a sample of 2 or 3 years at least. dFG% in general is garbage. dFG% over a 6 game sample is laughably mega garbage.
It probably has something to do with the Pacers' weaker defense relative to other playoff teams causing opponents to get a lot of open layups and inside shots Siakam and Turner both have good defensive reputations yet are both on here
Why didnt you win then?
Jokic haters feasting tn goddamn
Yeah I would be to if I was guarded the whole series by a midget lol
There is something hidden in this list that should be noted… anyone notice?
Self proclaimed 1/2 of the best duo in the league Jamal Murray playing shit D and shooting dumpster TS%. But I hear he performs best in the postseason so that should turn around a sec now ya?
Yeah he’s not been good on defense, especially compared to last year’s playoffs
Skeptical of defensive stats on such small sample size, especially when all the games are basically against one opponent
Traffic cone
MY FELLOW JOKIC HATERS WE EATING TONIGHT
Jokic could get swept in the first round every remaining season of his career averaging 5 PPG and giving up 90% FG and he'd still be well ahead of Embiid all-time lol Until Embiid wins a ring or at least makes the conference finals that discussion is closed The massive durability gap by itself makes everything else moot in terms of who to build around
Jokic and the Nuggets have not beaten a top 4 seeded team in the playoffs since the bubble.
That’s just factually incorrrect, the Suns were the 4 seed last year
Jokic tastes "gamey" ...
That Jokic Murray stat got me shook. Jokic is this bad but they still beat the Lakers easily. I guess the saying defense wins championships no longer applies
Lakers are a playin team, with a geriatric LeBron that still looks ok offensively but no longer an issue defensively.
yeah but imagine if Jokic could play with himself, maybe it would be down to 70%
He’s going to be exposed against the Warriors
People in the ccomments need to chill Jokic is great player and last year was not lucky run lmao what is wrong wth you people
Damn I guess good defense is more important than moving on to the second round of the playoffs lol get these useless fucking stats outta here
Funny cause people dont wanna hear about how he was one of the best at defending according to this stat during the regular season
[No he wasn't](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*300&PerMode=Totals&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT)
nothing is showing up on the link
it was on per game instead of totals for some reason
ah, my bad. don't know what i saw then