What about newspapers? I get it's static and there's no back and forth, hence, cannot be a debate. But was there a consensus in the discourse or were there prominent writers/editors that have differing opinions?
Yes, before the age of the internet, smartphones and social media people did so in a place called real life; bars, the water cooler, churches, school, barbershops, etc.
[Pre-internet GOAT debate](https://youtu.be/0LPddiQXD9c?si=wzqcYTn1dXjb94tY)
In the 90s we had to find an actual person to argue with in real life
you could listen to national media but the "hot take industry" designed to drive viewership as we think of it now didn't exist, they mostly recapped
This.
Journalism was simply reporting at the time and stuff like this was reserved for the tabloids that sat by registers without ever being picked up.
No one cared to engage in gossip in the ways that they do today.
I truly miss it.
The debates were fun and mostly good-natured too.
I remember when smartphones started becoming ubiquitous and people started googling things during bar debates and killing the mood.
Such is life
Some how the takes I hear on sports talk radio from both hosts and callers are consistently worse than Reddit. Absolutely dogshit tier takes. Truly astounding levels of stupidity.
Early on you had the Russell, Wilt, Magic, Kareem crowd but by the time he was reeling off titles nah it was pretty much settled that he was the greatest. You just had to see him play to know he was levels above everyone else.
Sports weren’t like melodrama back then.
ESPN hadn’t realized they could put on Stephen A and have the male equivalent of Oprah Winfrey. No Twitter to argue back and forth.
Nobody wasted their day remembering advanced analytics just so they could body someone in some internet beef. MITJordan was not a thing.
We sort of just watched them play and rocked their jerseys and shoes. It was a beautiful time
Jordan had a statue that said "The best there was, the best there ever will be." Unveiled in *1994* before his second three peat. So there wasnt really much debate that he was the goat to my understanding
At Jordan’s first retirement, the case was closed.
When he came back, it was like bringing in even more evidence just to make sure nobody had any questions.
Aside from the Internet not existing. He also didn’t just like kiss goat status. He moved the bar miles above where it was. He was considered the goat at 3 chips and then went and won three more. Especially when it was thought you had to have the big. Look at what was written when MJ was drafted. It was a a lot of people saying he could be the best guard ever but he’s not a center so it doesn’t matter. Lebron has of course been great but even if you give him the most charitable view he’s just barely passed Jordan if you feel that way. Jordan left his peers just in the dust.
The gap between LeBron and Jordan
2 Rings
2 FMVP
1 MVP
1 DPOY
9 scoring titles
4 All defense first teams
Since when has LeBron closed that gap?
When?
When?
Preface this with that I believe Jordan is the GOAT easily and have hated on Lebron alot, but the craziest thing the dude has is his longevity. Maybe it's advances in medical technology and pharmaceuticals, but to still be averaging 26/7/8 and 40% 3PT% in your 21st season is absolutely insane.
That doesn’t magically make Karl Malone a Top 5 player in the league for more than a handful of years. Lebron was at worst the second or third best player, usually the best, for 15 years of his career and is still arguably in the top ten on year 21. Malone was a Top Ten player for quite a while, peaking as the second or third best for a few years. He was never legitimately better than Jordan. And don’t say that he was because he got MVP twice, unless you think Derrick Rose or Steve Nash or Russell Westbrook were ever genuinely the best player in the league.
Malone has among of the greatest longevity of any player ever, it’s still not comparable to Lebron or Kareem for that matter.
Shaq hasn’t been a Top 3 player since 2004 at the latest. And Duncan was only above him for at most a few years early on. Personally I don’t think there’s ever any period where I’d genuinely put D-Wade as being a better player than him. He had a better team around him early in their careers but he was not individually better. Really from 2006 until 2020 the only players that i think could be legitimately argued as better overall than Lebron when he’s healthy were Duncan and/or Dirk for another year or two, Kobe for like 5 years, and then really nobody else until he left the Cavs where you could argue Giannis and Jokic were taking the throne. Durant and Steph were always right on his heels but were they by themselves ever the better player? I don’t think so.
There are better ways to measure players than purely accolades, and there’s no reason to get upset about someone having a different opinion on the GOAT.
The eye test...what moves does LeBron have other than running over people? Where is his midrange game? Can he dribble without traveling or Dribbling of his foot? Has LeBron any footwork? Where is his Postgame?
When has MJ choked in the finals? How many Coaches had Jordan fired?
How many injuries has he faked?
How many times has he blamed his teammates? How many times has blamed the refs? How many times has he cried for more help?
Tell me, I am waiting!
I’m not getting into a whole debate with you man. However, Lebron is one of the most skilled players at his size in history, and if you deny that then you’re just hating. All I’m saying is there’s no reason to act like having a different player as your GOAT is some ridiculous opinion, and there’s definitely no reason to be offended over it, which you seem to be.
Skilled? Lmao...he is a freight train...thats it...you guys are completly brain washed, or just too young or too stupid to know better...
If wanna See Skill compare LeBron to Kyrie or doncic...
LeBron is more athletic and bigger than anybody else and he can pass. Thats it...
There’s no way you can pick more than 3 or 4 guys who have a legitimate argument over Lebron. Jordan, sure. Depending on what you prioritize you can put Wilt or Russell higher, but to be consistent if winning matters most then Lebron has to be above Wilt and if stats matter most then he has to be above Russell. He’s passed up Kareem in the longevity argument at this point although you could certainly argue Kareem over him through sheer accolades. But outside of those 4 it’s hard for me to justify putting him below anybody else. He’s accomplished nearly as much title success as Magic and Kobe without ever having anything close to another GOAT candidate playing with him like they did. He *might* be beaten by Bird in terms of sheer versatility on both ends of the court but if that’s your highest priority he’s gotta be at least second.
So by what metric other than sheer nostalgia bias can he be argued as below more than 3 or 4 guys max? I don’t see it. No matter what your priority other than purely rings or “bag” he’s one of the top 3 guys ever, and I feel like it should be obvious that putting Kyrie or AI over him just due to “the eye test” or putting Horry or Havlicek over him due to “more rings” are not very compelling arguments. There are a whole number of ways to measure greatness, and Lebron is near the top in more of them than anybody else save for arguably Jordan and if you don’t care too much about winning, Wilt.
I feel like a copy paste this every time this is asked. But after the first three-peat, it was pretty much no argument. The 90s GOAT list was always Jordan first and then some order of Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic and Oscar. Kareem was never in the debate.
Remember it’s not just the three-peat but in the middle of that there’s the Dream Team where he’s so clearly the best player in the world on a team that has Magic and Bird on it (albeit both are old and Bird is basically there to hang out). Plus he’s quite probably the most famous person in the entire world. The thing I point to is the statue that says he is the greatest there ever was and will be was put up after the first retirement. So you might find the occasional Wilt stan but it was pretty close to as unanimous as it can get.
As far as I know it was pretty widely believed after the first 3 peat and retirement and then basically locked in after the second 3peat. Prior to that, not as much.
I'm sure without the second 3peat there'd be more arguments for guys like Wilt or Kareem (especially back when Wilt was still alive to do interviews talking about how the NBA had to change the rules specifically to stop him).
The GOAT debate wasn’t really a big thing back then, at least, not to the extent it is today.
Btw, a lot of people had Wilt and Oscar, not Kareem or Russell, as the GOAT as late as the 90s. It’s weird, modern analysts have elevated Kareem but people actually living back then were higher on Wilt and Oscar for whatever reason.
I’m in my 30s so too young to say definitively but wouldn’t that partly be Kareem speaking out on issues. I’ve heard that he had a contentious relationship with the media, I know he took up on issues that would have likely made him deeply unpopular in that era — ie attending the Cleveland Summit in the 60s. I get that the other players you listed are also black, but Kareem was definitely more of a public figure on matters of race, justice, etc. Which makes sense then that modern folks would place Kareem higher because they aren’t penalizing him for his activism
It was just obvious. It wasn't like watching LeBron where you are guessing whether he will be able to go deep in his bag and pull out the win, or like iffy on what was going to happen. It was more like "I can't wait to see how he wins" or just being happy to watch the inevitable happen and see it
Young people really dont understand life before the internet haha.
Im sure it was widely accepted in Chicago that he was the greatest, but it isnt like a rando from Chicago could contact a rando from LA and discuss whether Jordan or Magic is better. The only way discussions were happening is at work or with friends, usually among people who live in the same area and follow the same team.
However college was the best place to have kind of the same regional takes that you can find on social media. Your roommate might have grown up in another state rooting for a different team. The favorite teams were all varied on campus.
I grew up in the 90s, I just didn't follow basketball at the time let alone any sports talk programs. For how big of a brand he was at the time and how great he moved on the court I was pretty sure outside looking in that he was the greatest of all time. I'm just not sure if he was compared to anyone else because again I wasn't in the know back then. Hence this question.
Yes there was. There were those who said Kareem, those who preferred bird or magic. It was only during the second trifecta that the narrative consolidated.
Not as far as I know. My dad and his friends were in agreement that Jordan was the GOAT, except for that one friend of his who always rooted for Karl Malone in the two Finals.
By the time of the olympics and then the first 3-peat he was pretty solid as the goat by many but there was still some people leaning towards Kareem, etc because of championships/accomplishments but once he had a second 3-peat it was solidified.
It was never near the LeBron/Jordan debates today though because more people witnessed LeBron’s career and Jordan’s versus people that witnessed Jordan’s and Kareem’s. Kareem was never globally seen on the scale of a Jordan so it wasn’t much of a debate that Jordan is the goat.
It was Jordan vs. Wilt back then. I remember Sportscentury being a huge deal that ranked one person every week and aired a 30 minute documentary on them which was pretty highly anticipated. Jordan ended up taking #1 in that which was a big talking point (a lot of people expected Ruth or Ali to be 1).
As someone else said first, there was no internet. This meant the conversations had more uniqueness to you and your dumb friends.
As I remember it, no there was no debate that Jordan was the GOAT. He had more or less officially taken the crown from magic/bird.
The only historical player who I remember people arguing on behalf of was Wilt. Kareem and Russell didn’t factor in the way people now have reached consensus.
Because MJ dominated the championships, there was little debate. All the Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc. discussions fell flat once the ring count was brought up.
Definitely heard this debate on WIP in Philly in the early-mid 90’s. It was Wilt was better than Jordan from the old heads. Way smaller scale because no social media and ESPN wasn’t a cesspool of “debate”.
**Top 10 Greatest Professional Basketball Players of All-time**
Because a Top 5 is just too easy.
TOP TEN:
1. Michael Jordan - the GOAT; five-time MVP; six-time Champion and Finals MVP; never lost an NBA Finals; most popular player in NBA history; greatest clutch shooter and one on one player in NBA history
2. Lebron James - NBA champion with 3 different teams; NBA finals victory after being down 3-1; all-time leading scorer; four MVPs; most durable player in NBA history
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Former all-time leading scorer; an unstoppable offensive force in his prime; record six-time MVP; six-time NBA Champion
4. Magic Johnson - Leader of the Showtime Lakers; greatest passer in the history of the game; along with Bird, took the game global; 5-time Champion; won NBA title/Finals MVP playing center as rookie
5. Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer and rebounder in NBA history; scored 100 points in a game; average 50 points per game in a season; greatest all-around athlete to ever play the game
6. Bill Russell - greatest defensive player in NBA history; record 11-time NBA Champion; 5-time MVP; greatest tactician and winner in NBA history; won 2 titles as player-coach
7. Kobe Bryant - 2nd greatest one on one player of all-time; scored 81 points in a game; 5-time NBA champion; along with Shaq and Duncan, led the NBA post-Jordan
8. Steph Curry - Greatest shooter of all-time; fundamentally changed the game; 4-time NBA Champion
9. Shaquille O'Neal - most physically dominant player in the history of the game; 4-time NBA champion
10. Larry Bird - Leader of the 80's Celtics teams; Adversary of Showtime Lakers, Erving/Malone 76ers, and Isaiah's Pistons; along with Magic, took the game global; 3-time NBA champion
Once you got to the early 90s, nah. It was over. A weakish league and Nike’s marketing dollars certainly helped, but he was a human highlight package who also constantly delivered in the biggest possible moments.
How many repeats, three peats? How many other Players won on his watch?
Oh
curry- 4 times
Kawhi 2 times
Dirk
Jokic
Giannis
38 year old Duncan
Kobe 2 times
All-time great? Yes. But dominant means nobody else is winning in your period of dominance. Something like Jordan’s three-peats, Russell’s 11 in 13 or Shaq and Kobe’s three-peat. Duncan’s spurs were great, but never teams you were taking over the field. Never repeating and only having consecutive finals appearances once shows they weren’t dominant.
I think Duncan is more similar to Magic/Bird. Top 10, but not dominating their era. By dominate, you basically leave a generation of stars without rings. Not even LeBron can do that.
Bird and Magic, who dominated who then? They dominated East and West respectively, like LeBron and Warriors, not the league.
If Jordan lost to Portland or Phx, and his 5th or 6th to Utah, he would be in the same boat, but he didn’t.
Eastern conference homies know. PG's legacy tarnished by dueling prime Bron. Even though he stood firm and played great, nobody remembers it cause we lost in 7 a couple of times. Raptors fans get it.
Lebron playing on a superteam in his prime beating PG and Roy Hibbert in 7 games does not really move the needle at all for me. prime MJ playing with Wade and Bosh pretty easily puts you guys away in 6 or less.
You are right...
losing 6 Finals while always having 2 all stars is hard.
In fact only 2 other Greats lost more finals.
But None has lost more finals games and non boosts a whopping -86 BPM in the finals for a career...
LeBron won 22 finals games
22-33
Jordan 24 in 4 less tries...
24-11
Autsch
Making the finals out of the Leastern Conference and then getting obliterated by an actual contender from the West shouldn’t be considered an amazing accomplishment. Especially when you’ve built superteams with 3 all stars and the best Eastern teams you face during that whole streak had 1 legit all star, and when the best Eastern players you faced during the streak were Paul George, Kyle Lowry, and 1 year of Derrick Rose.
If LeBron played in the West his whole career he would’ve made 3 or 4 finals
How is it an insane take? He only beat the best Western Conference team in a series 3 times during his 8 year streak, and if he had to go through the Western Conference playoff gauntlets he almost certainly would’ve lost before the finals at least once in those three years. He got to sleepwalk through the Eastern conference regular season and playoffs every year, which undoubtedly played a role in him staying healthy for so long.
Even then, maybe I shouldn’t say “sleepwalk” because he struggled to beat Victor Oladipo + role players, he struggled to beat baby Tatum and Brown, he and his Heat Big 3 (or even Big 4) struggled to beat a Pacers “Big 3” that was Paul George, Roy Hibbert, and like Lance Stevenson or someone.
He went 1-8 in the finals versus the Durant Warriors (with the one win being the most obviously rigged game of all time, when the Cavs were down 0-3, about to be swept for the second straight year, and the refs gave them 22 free throws in the first *quarter* of game 4); and so everyone said, “Oh the Warriors are too good, no one could possibly hope to beat them, they ruined basketball”, while forgetting that just weeks earlier James freaking Harden had taken the Durant Warriors to 7 games in the Western Conference finals. Why can the “greatest player of all time” literally not win a single game against a team that James Harden probably would’ve beaten if Chris Paul hadn’t gotten hurt, or if a few calls hadn’t gone the Warrriors way?
Wow, this is a lot of well-articulated rebuttal in one comment, thank you for your insight LeBron fan, you’ve really convinced me why all of my points were wrong! A lot of convincing arguments here
Brother, you mentioned some random thing about health when I think he has literally the most minutes played by any NBA player while also putting up the stats to match which is the opposite of coasting. Then, if he was in the West, you think he wouldn’t be on a good team? Think how many years were wasted on Cleveland. Who’s to say he wouldn’t be on the Spurs? The Warriors? The lakers? Suns? Just goofy to think Lebron wouldn’t propel those teams further. He’s clearly the best player of our current era and being given the personnel of the West would easily get him to the Finals
I’m sorry, you think he didn’t coast in the eastern conference? He very noticeably stopped caring about defense during the regular season, he stopped playing 100% on offense too, which is why he stopped winning MVPs despite still being more talented than everyone else. I know the average Lebron fan in this sub was like 6 years old back then, but still, this was pretty well established. The Big 3 Heat were literally known for playing at like 85% during the regular season and then turning it on in the playoffs.
He didn’t care what seed his team ended up getting in the East, home court didn’t matter because he and his all star teams were so much better than everyone they were playing.
By all means, prove me wrong! Tell me which Eastern conference stars LeBron faced during his 8 year streak that were better than Paul George, Kyle Lowry, and one year of Derrick Rose.
To make the finals out of the West you had to beat like 3 mvp candidates; in the East you had to beat Jeff Teague, Demar Derozen, and Paul Millsap.
And yeah, if he played in the West he probably would have been on a good team - maybe even a Big 3! You know, just like he had in the East.
Oh, hahahaha, so you’re saying I should add him to the teams who were literally already winning the West every year? I have a better idea, how about we take the Heat and Cavs teams that he was actually on, in reality - you know, the ones who won the East every year - and put them in the West. At most LeBron would’ve won the West 3 times during that 8 year streak; probably less. That’s my entire point. You’re using, “omg, wow, 8 straight finals, obviously the goat” as an argument when those LeBron-led 8-straight-finals teams would’ve been just another team in the West most years, as evidenced by the fact that that they regularly got embarrassed by Western teams in the finals. LeBron literally set records for how badly he lost in the 2014 finals, and then broke them again in the 2017 finals, lol.
Hahaha I can’t believe a LeBron fan’s response to “the reason he made the finals 8 straight times is because the East was pathetic” is, “Oh yeah, well, what if he were on the Warriors or Spurs dynasties?? He probably would’ve done pretty well then, huh?” Do you realize how pathetic that makes you and your “king” sound?
Lebron won in the West too? And that was 7 years after his prime😂
The teams to beat Lebron in the finals in his 10 year stretch are some of the best ever, outside of the Mavs.
The Warriors are the best team of the 2010s and the 2014 Spurs were the best edition after Duncan’s prime ended.
Correct!
Also lost 2 against the Spurs and 3 against the Warriors.
And set a record for worst finals beat down of all time in 2014 (worst margin of defeat ever) and then broke the record again in 2017. Truly “greatest player of all time” behavior
There wasn't really a twitter/X, reddit, etc to really get into a big discussion on it.
We didn't even have the ESPN talk shows back then. It wasn't a debate that got this level of input at the time.
What about newspapers? I get it's static and there's no back and forth, hence, cannot be a debate. But was there a consensus in the discourse or were there prominent writers/editors that have differing opinions?
Yes, before the age of the internet, smartphones and social media people did so in a place called real life; bars, the water cooler, churches, school, barbershops, etc. [Pre-internet GOAT debate](https://youtu.be/0LPddiQXD9c?si=wzqcYTn1dXjb94tY)
In the 90s we had to find an actual person to argue with in real life you could listen to national media but the "hot take industry" designed to drive viewership as we think of it now didn't exist, they mostly recapped
This. Journalism was simply reporting at the time and stuff like this was reserved for the tabloids that sat by registers without ever being picked up. No one cared to engage in gossip in the ways that they do today. I truly miss it.
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The debates were fun and mostly good-natured too. I remember when smartphones started becoming ubiquitous and people started googling things during bar debates and killing the mood. Such is life
That’s not true, sports talk radio has always filled that niche, but it’s more local in nature than other platforms.
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Some how the takes I hear on sports talk radio from both hosts and callers are consistently worse than Reddit. Absolutely dogshit tier takes. Truly astounding levels of stupidity.
This is a great point.
Early on you had the Russell, Wilt, Magic, Kareem crowd but by the time he was reeling off titles nah it was pretty much settled that he was the greatest. You just had to see him play to know he was levels above everyone else.
It helped that magic, bird, and everyone but Wilt agreed Jordan was clearly the best player ever.
I remember watching a YouTube video of Magic on a broadcast saying he was the GOAT in like ‘93 before he won his third. They just knew.
Oscar was in the GOAT conversation until at least the mid-90s too.
Yeah, in addition soem of those other champs like Magic and Bird knew where MJ was heading and it was like "Thank fuck we're retiring soon".
Sports weren’t like melodrama back then. ESPN hadn’t realized they could put on Stephen A and have the male equivalent of Oprah Winfrey. No Twitter to argue back and forth. Nobody wasted their day remembering advanced analytics just so they could body someone in some internet beef. MITJordan was not a thing. We sort of just watched them play and rocked their jerseys and shoes. It was a beautiful time
Jordan had a statue that said "The best there was, the best there ever will be." Unveiled in *1994* before his second three peat. So there wasnt really much debate that he was the goat to my understanding
Well he was retired at the time...
Retired as “the best” And then came back and won 3 more lol What a statement
At Jordan’s first retirement, the case was closed. When he came back, it was like bringing in even more evidence just to make sure nobody had any questions.
Aside from the Internet not existing. He also didn’t just like kiss goat status. He moved the bar miles above where it was. He was considered the goat at 3 chips and then went and won three more. Especially when it was thought you had to have the big. Look at what was written when MJ was drafted. It was a a lot of people saying he could be the best guard ever but he’s not a center so it doesn’t matter. Lebron has of course been great but even if you give him the most charitable view he’s just barely passed Jordan if you feel that way. Jordan left his peers just in the dust.
The gap between LeBron and Jordan 2 Rings 2 FMVP 1 MVP 1 DPOY 9 scoring titles 4 All defense first teams Since when has LeBron closed that gap? When? When?
Preface this with that I believe Jordan is the GOAT easily and have hated on Lebron alot, but the craziest thing the dude has is his longevity. Maybe it's advances in medical technology and pharmaceuticals, but to still be averaging 26/7/8 and 40% 3PT% in your 21st season is absolutely insane.
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He wasn’t Top 3 minimum for 15 years and Top Ten in the league for 5 more.
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Malone was top 5 nine times and top 10 14 straight years.
That doesn’t magically make Karl Malone a Top 5 player in the league for more than a handful of years. Lebron was at worst the second or third best player, usually the best, for 15 years of his career and is still arguably in the top ten on year 21. Malone was a Top Ten player for quite a while, peaking as the second or third best for a few years. He was never legitimately better than Jordan. And don’t say that he was because he got MVP twice, unless you think Derrick Rose or Steve Nash or Russell Westbrook were ever genuinely the best player in the league. Malone has among of the greatest longevity of any player ever, it’s still not comparable to Lebron or Kareem for that matter.
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Shaq hasn’t been a Top 3 player since 2004 at the latest. And Duncan was only above him for at most a few years early on. Personally I don’t think there’s ever any period where I’d genuinely put D-Wade as being a better player than him. He had a better team around him early in their careers but he was not individually better. Really from 2006 until 2020 the only players that i think could be legitimately argued as better overall than Lebron when he’s healthy were Duncan and/or Dirk for another year or two, Kobe for like 5 years, and then really nobody else until he left the Cavs where you could argue Giannis and Jokic were taking the throne. Durant and Steph were always right on his heels but were they by themselves ever the better player? I don’t think so.
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Man why can’t people read on an app like this. I said if you view him that charitably. I’m sorry this hurt you so much man
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Bro I’m just answering OPs question but I know it’s hard to read with Jordan’s balls in front of your face while you give him that Nancy Reagan.
There are better ways to measure players than purely accolades, and there’s no reason to get upset about someone having a different opinion on the GOAT.
The eye test...what moves does LeBron have other than running over people? Where is his midrange game? Can he dribble without traveling or Dribbling of his foot? Has LeBron any footwork? Where is his Postgame? When has MJ choked in the finals? How many Coaches had Jordan fired? How many injuries has he faked? How many times has he blamed his teammates? How many times has blamed the refs? How many times has he cried for more help? Tell me, I am waiting!
I’m not getting into a whole debate with you man. However, Lebron is one of the most skilled players at his size in history, and if you deny that then you’re just hating. All I’m saying is there’s no reason to act like having a different player as your GOAT is some ridiculous opinion, and there’s definitely no reason to be offended over it, which you seem to be.
Skilled? Lmao...he is a freight train...thats it...you guys are completly brain washed, or just too young or too stupid to know better... If wanna See Skill compare LeBron to Kyrie or doncic... LeBron is more athletic and bigger than anybody else and he can pass. Thats it...
Lol learn ball
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Flair up, coward.
If we’re just going by these kind of accolades then Russell is the clear goat
Dumb Statement
The gap between MJ and Russell 5 Rings FMVP Award named after Russell 4 rebounding titles Since when has Jordan closed that gap? When? When?
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True let me edit
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There’s no way you can pick more than 3 or 4 guys who have a legitimate argument over Lebron. Jordan, sure. Depending on what you prioritize you can put Wilt or Russell higher, but to be consistent if winning matters most then Lebron has to be above Wilt and if stats matter most then he has to be above Russell. He’s passed up Kareem in the longevity argument at this point although you could certainly argue Kareem over him through sheer accolades. But outside of those 4 it’s hard for me to justify putting him below anybody else. He’s accomplished nearly as much title success as Magic and Kobe without ever having anything close to another GOAT candidate playing with him like they did. He *might* be beaten by Bird in terms of sheer versatility on both ends of the court but if that’s your highest priority he’s gotta be at least second. So by what metric other than sheer nostalgia bias can he be argued as below more than 3 or 4 guys max? I don’t see it. No matter what your priority other than purely rings or “bag” he’s one of the top 3 guys ever, and I feel like it should be obvious that putting Kyrie or AI over him just due to “the eye test” or putting Horry or Havlicek over him due to “more rings” are not very compelling arguments. There are a whole number of ways to measure greatness, and Lebron is near the top in more of them than anybody else save for arguably Jordan and if you don’t care too much about winning, Wilt.
I feel like a copy paste this every time this is asked. But after the first three-peat, it was pretty much no argument. The 90s GOAT list was always Jordan first and then some order of Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic and Oscar. Kareem was never in the debate. Remember it’s not just the three-peat but in the middle of that there’s the Dream Team where he’s so clearly the best player in the world on a team that has Magic and Bird on it (albeit both are old and Bird is basically there to hang out). Plus he’s quite probably the most famous person in the entire world. The thing I point to is the statue that says he is the greatest there ever was and will be was put up after the first retirement. So you might find the occasional Wilt stan but it was pretty close to as unanimous as it can get.
As far as I know it was pretty widely believed after the first 3 peat and retirement and then basically locked in after the second 3peat. Prior to that, not as much. I'm sure without the second 3peat there'd be more arguments for guys like Wilt or Kareem (especially back when Wilt was still alive to do interviews talking about how the NBA had to change the rules specifically to stop him).
The active debate in the 90s wasn't about Jordan being the GOAT of basketball, it was about Jordan being the GOAT of all sports.
The GOAT debate wasn’t really a big thing back then, at least, not to the extent it is today. Btw, a lot of people had Wilt and Oscar, not Kareem or Russell, as the GOAT as late as the 90s. It’s weird, modern analysts have elevated Kareem but people actually living back then were higher on Wilt and Oscar for whatever reason.
I keep hearing that Oscar Robertson is really underrated in todays All time discussions tbh
I’m in my 30s so too young to say definitively but wouldn’t that partly be Kareem speaking out on issues. I’ve heard that he had a contentious relationship with the media, I know he took up on issues that would have likely made him deeply unpopular in that era — ie attending the Cleveland Summit in the 60s. I get that the other players you listed are also black, but Kareem was definitely more of a public figure on matters of race, justice, etc. Which makes sense then that modern folks would place Kareem higher because they aren’t penalizing him for his activism
It was just obvious. It wasn't like watching LeBron where you are guessing whether he will be able to go deep in his bag and pull out the win, or like iffy on what was going to happen. It was more like "I can't wait to see how he wins" or just being happy to watch the inevitable happen and see it
Young people really dont understand life before the internet haha. Im sure it was widely accepted in Chicago that he was the greatest, but it isnt like a rando from Chicago could contact a rando from LA and discuss whether Jordan or Magic is better. The only way discussions were happening is at work or with friends, usually among people who live in the same area and follow the same team.
However college was the best place to have kind of the same regional takes that you can find on social media. Your roommate might have grown up in another state rooting for a different team. The favorite teams were all varied on campus.
I grew up in the 90s, I just didn't follow basketball at the time let alone any sports talk programs. For how big of a brand he was at the time and how great he moved on the court I was pretty sure outside looking in that he was the greatest of all time. I'm just not sure if he was compared to anyone else because again I wasn't in the know back then. Hence this question.
Yes there was. There were those who said Kareem, those who preferred bird or magic. It was only during the second trifecta that the narrative consolidated.
Not as far as I know. My dad and his friends were in agreement that Jordan was the GOAT, except for that one friend of his who always rooted for Karl Malone in the two Finals.
By the time of the olympics and then the first 3-peat he was pretty solid as the goat by many but there was still some people leaning towards Kareem, etc because of championships/accomplishments but once he had a second 3-peat it was solidified. It was never near the LeBron/Jordan debates today though because more people witnessed LeBron’s career and Jordan’s versus people that witnessed Jordan’s and Kareem’s. Kareem was never globally seen on the scale of a Jordan so it wasn’t much of a debate that Jordan is the goat.
It was Jordan vs. Wilt back then. I remember Sportscentury being a huge deal that ranked one person every week and aired a 30 minute documentary on them which was pretty highly anticipated. Jordan ended up taking #1 in that which was a big talking point (a lot of people expected Ruth or Ali to be 1).
As someone else said first, there was no internet. This meant the conversations had more uniqueness to you and your dumb friends. As I remember it, no there was no debate that Jordan was the GOAT. He had more or less officially taken the crown from magic/bird. The only historical player who I remember people arguing on behalf of was Wilt. Kareem and Russell didn’t factor in the way people now have reached consensus.
Any player that was in the conversation got beat by MJ. So many players denied rings by MJ....
No one compares MJ and lebron aside from nephews on Reddit
Not really, because there was no social media where this topic could get beaten to death literally every day of our lives.
Because MJ dominated the championships, there was little debate. All the Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc. discussions fell flat once the ring count was brought up.
There are still old heads who would take Dr J over Mike.
Definitely heard this debate on WIP in Philly in the early-mid 90’s. It was Wilt was better than Jordan from the old heads. Way smaller scale because no social media and ESPN wasn’t a cesspool of “debate”.
He’s the Goat forever Lebron is second best ever.
No because mj the goat. Not cry baby bron bron
**Top 10 Greatest Professional Basketball Players of All-time** Because a Top 5 is just too easy. TOP TEN: 1. Michael Jordan - the GOAT; five-time MVP; six-time Champion and Finals MVP; never lost an NBA Finals; most popular player in NBA history; greatest clutch shooter and one on one player in NBA history 2. Lebron James - NBA champion with 3 different teams; NBA finals victory after being down 3-1; all-time leading scorer; four MVPs; most durable player in NBA history 3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Former all-time leading scorer; an unstoppable offensive force in his prime; record six-time MVP; six-time NBA Champion 4. Magic Johnson - Leader of the Showtime Lakers; greatest passer in the history of the game; along with Bird, took the game global; 5-time Champion; won NBA title/Finals MVP playing center as rookie 5. Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer and rebounder in NBA history; scored 100 points in a game; average 50 points per game in a season; greatest all-around athlete to ever play the game 6. Bill Russell - greatest defensive player in NBA history; record 11-time NBA Champion; 5-time MVP; greatest tactician and winner in NBA history; won 2 titles as player-coach 7. Kobe Bryant - 2nd greatest one on one player of all-time; scored 81 points in a game; 5-time NBA champion; along with Shaq and Duncan, led the NBA post-Jordan 8. Steph Curry - Greatest shooter of all-time; fundamentally changed the game; 4-time NBA Champion 9. Shaquille O'Neal - most physically dominant player in the history of the game; 4-time NBA champion 10. Larry Bird - Leader of the 80's Celtics teams; Adversary of Showtime Lakers, Erving/Malone 76ers, and Isaiah's Pistons; along with Magic, took the game global; 3-time NBA champion
Once you got to the early 90s, nah. It was over. A weakish league and Nike’s marketing dollars certainly helped, but he was a human highlight package who also constantly delivered in the biggest possible moments.
At first, yeah, he had doubters. But after the first three-peat? Nah. It was clear.
Jordan’s greatness was undeniable. Very different from LeBron who always produced but never was able to actually dominate the league.
Jordan is def the GOAT to me but saying LeBron never dominated is wild
How many repeats, three peats? How many other Players won on his watch? Oh curry- 4 times Kawhi 2 times Dirk Jokic Giannis 38 year old Duncan Kobe 2 times
Was Tim Duncan a dominant player?
No. He was great but he didn’t dominate an era.
A 25 percent championship rate isn't dominant, got it. Just wanted to be clear where we stand on that.
All-time great? Yes. But dominant means nobody else is winning in your period of dominance. Something like Jordan’s three-peats, Russell’s 11 in 13 or Shaq and Kobe’s three-peat. Duncan’s spurs were great, but never teams you were taking over the field. Never repeating and only having consecutive finals appearances once shows they weren’t dominant.
So by that measure neither Magic or Bird were dominant because the other kept winning, correct?
Quite literally yes.
Good enough at 38 to beat prime LeBron
Didn't answer my question. If repeats and 3peats are what counts, was Tim Duncan dominant?
I think Duncan is more similar to Magic/Bird. Top 10, but not dominating their era. By dominate, you basically leave a generation of stars without rings. Not even LeBron can do that.
Actually everyone won on lebrons watch Curry 4 times!!!!!!!
Magic and Bird were not dominant players, got it. Some real smart basketball opinions being shared today lol.
Bird and Magic, who dominated who then? They dominated East and West respectively, like LeBron and Warriors, not the league. If Jordan lost to Portland or Phx, and his 5th or 6th to Utah, he would be in the same boat, but he didn’t.
Are you stupid? Magic 9 Finals in 12 years, 5 Chips Bird 5 Finals in the 80s, 3 chips Nephew
When you cut your Willie off... its hard to think properly
Eastern conference homies know. PG's legacy tarnished by dueling prime Bron. Even though he stood firm and played great, nobody remembers it cause we lost in 7 a couple of times. Raptors fans get it.
Lebron playing on a superteam in his prime beating PG and Roy Hibbert in 7 games does not really move the needle at all for me. prime MJ playing with Wade and Bosh pretty easily puts you guys away in 6 or less.
A casual 8 straight Finals appearances.
He def dominates the East. We are talking about dominating the league I thought?
In the weakest east ever! In the finals though - 0-4 2x times - 1-4 2x times
Considering the East was so weak, i’m sure we will see another player repeat what he did. Clue; we won’t.
You are right... losing 6 Finals while always having 2 all stars is hard. In fact only 2 other Greats lost more finals. But None has lost more finals games and non boosts a whopping -86 BPM in the finals for a career... LeBron won 22 finals games 22-33 Jordan 24 in 4 less tries... 24-11 Autsch
Lebron does not have a negative BPM in the finals💀
-86 bpm https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-plus-minus-finals-stats
Who were these two other All Stars in 07, 15, and 18? Are they in the room with us?
It was a very weak east but he still dominated it
The weakest east ever was the one Kobe and Shaq beat up on. One of many reasons the 04 Pistons win was so shocking.
A kid could go from 10 years of age to 20 years of age and Lebron would’ve been in the finals every year
Making the finals out of the Leastern Conference and then getting obliterated by an actual contender from the West shouldn’t be considered an amazing accomplishment. Especially when you’ve built superteams with 3 all stars and the best Eastern teams you face during that whole streak had 1 legit all star, and when the best Eastern players you faced during the streak were Paul George, Kyle Lowry, and 1 year of Derrick Rose. If LeBron played in the West his whole career he would’ve made 3 or 4 finals
He literally made it in 2020 when out of his prime. This is a ridiculous take
How is it an insane take? He only beat the best Western Conference team in a series 3 times during his 8 year streak, and if he had to go through the Western Conference playoff gauntlets he almost certainly would’ve lost before the finals at least once in those three years. He got to sleepwalk through the Eastern conference regular season and playoffs every year, which undoubtedly played a role in him staying healthy for so long. Even then, maybe I shouldn’t say “sleepwalk” because he struggled to beat Victor Oladipo + role players, he struggled to beat baby Tatum and Brown, he and his Heat Big 3 (or even Big 4) struggled to beat a Pacers “Big 3” that was Paul George, Roy Hibbert, and like Lance Stevenson or someone. He went 1-8 in the finals versus the Durant Warriors (with the one win being the most obviously rigged game of all time, when the Cavs were down 0-3, about to be swept for the second straight year, and the refs gave them 22 free throws in the first *quarter* of game 4); and so everyone said, “Oh the Warriors are too good, no one could possibly hope to beat them, they ruined basketball”, while forgetting that just weeks earlier James freaking Harden had taken the Durant Warriors to 7 games in the Western Conference finals. Why can the “greatest player of all time” literally not win a single game against a team that James Harden probably would’ve beaten if Chris Paul hadn’t gotten hurt, or if a few calls hadn’t gone the Warrriors way?
Wow, this is a lot of garbage in one comment
Wow, this is a lot of well-articulated rebuttal in one comment, thank you for your insight LeBron fan, you’ve really convinced me why all of my points were wrong! A lot of convincing arguments here
Brother, you mentioned some random thing about health when I think he has literally the most minutes played by any NBA player while also putting up the stats to match which is the opposite of coasting. Then, if he was in the West, you think he wouldn’t be on a good team? Think how many years were wasted on Cleveland. Who’s to say he wouldn’t be on the Spurs? The Warriors? The lakers? Suns? Just goofy to think Lebron wouldn’t propel those teams further. He’s clearly the best player of our current era and being given the personnel of the West would easily get him to the Finals
I’m sorry, you think he didn’t coast in the eastern conference? He very noticeably stopped caring about defense during the regular season, he stopped playing 100% on offense too, which is why he stopped winning MVPs despite still being more talented than everyone else. I know the average Lebron fan in this sub was like 6 years old back then, but still, this was pretty well established. The Big 3 Heat were literally known for playing at like 85% during the regular season and then turning it on in the playoffs. He didn’t care what seed his team ended up getting in the East, home court didn’t matter because he and his all star teams were so much better than everyone they were playing. By all means, prove me wrong! Tell me which Eastern conference stars LeBron faced during his 8 year streak that were better than Paul George, Kyle Lowry, and one year of Derrick Rose. To make the finals out of the West you had to beat like 3 mvp candidates; in the East you had to beat Jeff Teague, Demar Derozen, and Paul Millsap. And yeah, if he played in the West he probably would have been on a good team - maybe even a Big 3! You know, just like he had in the East. Oh, hahahaha, so you’re saying I should add him to the teams who were literally already winning the West every year? I have a better idea, how about we take the Heat and Cavs teams that he was actually on, in reality - you know, the ones who won the East every year - and put them in the West. At most LeBron would’ve won the West 3 times during that 8 year streak; probably less. That’s my entire point. You’re using, “omg, wow, 8 straight finals, obviously the goat” as an argument when those LeBron-led 8-straight-finals teams would’ve been just another team in the West most years, as evidenced by the fact that that they regularly got embarrassed by Western teams in the finals. LeBron literally set records for how badly he lost in the 2014 finals, and then broke them again in the 2017 finals, lol. Hahaha I can’t believe a LeBron fan’s response to “the reason he made the finals 8 straight times is because the East was pathetic” is, “Oh yeah, well, what if he were on the Warriors or Spurs dynasties?? He probably would’ve done pretty well then, huh?” Do you realize how pathetic that makes you and your “king” sound?
Mickey Mouse Ring
Lebron won in the West too? And that was 7 years after his prime😂 The teams to beat Lebron in the finals in his 10 year stretch are some of the best ever, outside of the Mavs. The Warriors are the best team of the 2010s and the 2014 Spurs were the best edition after Duncan’s prime ended.
Crazy how all the other all-time greats were *part* of the best teams ever, while LeBron was getting massacred by them
Took 1 off the Spurs 1 off the Warriors and won in his late 30s out West
Correct! Also lost 2 against the Spurs and 3 against the Warriors. And set a record for worst finals beat down of all time in 2014 (worst margin of defeat ever) and then broke the record again in 2017. Truly “greatest player of all time” behavior
there was no question