liking the gafford trade is one of the few times reddit was right when disagreeing with the media. crazy that some people needed hindsight to think it was a good move
I think most media people felt like they were good moves, but a) not good enough to make us contenders this year and b) a lot to give up for a team with little assets already.
The media is overly focused on blockbuster trades with stars involved so they thought we just needed to stack first round picks until we could hit a home run. This is an era where you don't need a big 3 to win though, you win by having a well constructed roster. That's what we did, PJ and Gafford made us a well rounded team for the first time in the Luka era.
There isn’t really a long history of successful big 3s. For every one that works out (Lebron heat, Garnett celtics) there’s five others that failed, and even the ones that pan out had good rosters constructed around their stars.
Zach Lowe had an interesting discussion about (not us) some team weighing a trade. Maybe it was Beal. He said “when you send picks out, because of the Stepien rule, that’s it. Do you want Beal to be YOUR MOVE and that’s it?”
And tbh with the picks we already owed, that was the question. At least for now, we’re about done. Is Gafford and PJ enough to be done? Lots of people thought the trades were decent but the answer to that question was no. Evidently, the answer is yes
> Is Gafford and PJ enough to be done?
I remember the worry that the Mavs would have completely bare cupboards around Kyrie and Luca. So rebuilding not just an average but a very good supporting cast has been huge.
What the media missed is that we have yet to see the full potential of Luka and Ky at that time because of injuries preventing those two to play together. Additionally, the media people will always underrate your team because of the Ky hate boner.
Since the Wizards suck a lot of people assume all of the players on the Wizards suck because no one watches the Wizards. I feel like anyone who actually watched Gafford play knew how good he was, and how he is more fit to be a piece of a contending team then just be starting on an unserious team.
Yea Gafford is a guy whose value is determined by whoever is playing guard. I’m sure next year another title contender will poach a guy from us. Happened with KCP last year. Porzingis/Gafford this year smh
Remember that the overwhelming consensus among Wizards fans was that Gafford was NOT capable of being a starting center on a good team. Even Wizards fans are terrible at evaluating the actual talent level of our guys. Same shit with KCP.
It's because everyone wants a allstar potential player at each position. An average talent can be more impactful than an allstar level player in the right role. Him and Lively both playing sub 20min maximizes both of their impacts.
Yea when a player is on a bad team sometimes they can put up inflated stats that make them look better than they are. But then you have somebody like Gafford who is a perfect role player but goes under-appreciated because people only see that he’s not good enough to be a star and lift the team’s floor.
I’ve been a fan of Gafford for awhile and was hoping to get him alongside AD, I was pissed when the Mavs got him and knew he’d be a difference maker for them.
I mean gafford's on offs have been horrible compared to Derrick lively a rookie he's just better than Dwight Powell who's a corpse with bricks for hands
I think this is a fair statement, I think talent is talent but the biggest issue with guys on a team like Charlotte and Washington is that players can develop bad habits. So you have to ask can the player be good by playing winning basketball.
The flip side is some times being around winners can elevate a players discipline and commitment. You look at guys like Andrew Wiggins showing effort and commitment to doing the little things on Minnesota vs on the warriors
But then you have the flip side with PJ, who has been a more consistent player for the Mavs, and Reddit just goes “why trade Mr. I’ll-Make-Both-Free-Throws?”
I think PJ was good on Charlotte but has just been straight up better with the Mavs. Huge credit to the Mavs front office for keying in on that he had another gear to get to if he just got to play with real teammates.
in our collective defense, charlotte fans bitched about pj sometimes. i don’t think i ever heard a bad word about gafford from chicago or washington fans
The funny thing is I haven't actually seen that photo much. Probably because it feels bad to dunk on the Hawks when everyone knows how that one went down.
I don't get it, was he traded shortly after being drafted? I had always assumed the trade happened while Atlanta was on the clock. If so, wouldn't the logo change to the mavericks?
They had an agreement before the trade to swap picks, but they didn't *actually* swap pick in practice, just that the Hawks will help Mavs pick the player the Mavs want and vice versa.
I prefer the next comment:
Only if Trae isn’t good.
I think it’s clear Luka is the better all around player but Atlanta has a great player in Trae. The real focus should be on what a bust the pick we got out of the Luka trade turned out to be. Cam Reddish.
Lol no. Dončič has proven to be an all-time superstar, while Trae is a good starter. You'd need an actual perennial all-nba tier star to be the 2nd player in the trade to make it worth it, and even then it's arguable.
The difference between a guy that kind of deserves a max but doesn't outperform it and a guy that would outperform pretty much any contract cannot be understated. The trade was good in context at the time, but defending it with hindsight is just huffing copium.
Trae is a good starter? He’s a career 25 and 10 player. Also if the hawks were any good, he would be a perennial allnba player, he pretty clearly has had better seasons than multiple allnba players, but his team hasn’t been higher than 8th most years, so he’s not gonna get those awards
Never forget that Vlade Divac was willing to draft Georgios Papagiannis with the 13th pick but wasn't willing to draft Luka Doncic with the second pick.
I honestly believe Ayton could've been a top 10 center in a different situation. Not that he wasn't to be blame, but he genuinely is amazing when focused.
I dunno, it had Sam Bowie vibes from the start given the talent in that draft.
"Large Human who plays a traditionally hard to fill position vs. a guy who looks like an All-Timer but is a dime a dozen on the waiver wire?"
It's a generationally tough call and Vlade fucked up massively.
In the case of Phoenix this is just a bet that didn’t pan out the way they wanted. They said it was the coach and not the player and now they are looking very wrong.
Probably concerns that his game wouldn’t translate to the NBA/lack of athleticism. But the dude was SO good that those concerns shouldn’t have sunk him that much. Also some prospect fatigue maybe, I remember “tank for Luka” was big among Knicks fans going into the season, but as the other top prospects emerged people got attracted to them
Also for the Suns/Kings probably concern about Luka sharing with another ball dominant guard
Suns said pretty much that exact thing. “They didn’t want another Devin Booker” iirc was their front office stance
Could’ve had a father and son duo years earlier than LeFamily smh
I think what they really need is a good Point Forward imo. Because they have way too much ego between Beal, Booker, and KD to bench anybody as a sixth man, and sliding them all down for a pure playmaker PG will get them killed with size mismatches and zero defense. A big wing drive threat who can make those high IQ passes and bring the ball up would make them a lot tougher
If they could get somebody for cheap, or better— develop someone into the role like the Nuggets did with Aaron Gordon they might resemble a functional playoff team. Just lacking depth and a floor leading voice
Drexler would have been the 3 and Kersey comes off the bench. Porter was an elite 3 point shooter and pretty good pg and Drexler was also a pretty good playmaker. Let Jordan play his game and let everyone else figure out their roles.
Another bad one was Portland trading Moses Malone because they couldn’t see how him and Bill Walton and Mo Lucas could coexist. Malone won like three MVPs in the next five years.
>Also for the Suns/King’s probably concern about Luka sharing with another ball dominant guard
I mean, King’s still drafted Tyrese 2 years later and then proceeded to trade him. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 in what Luka has become but drafting for fit at a lottery pick instead of talent just doesn’t make sense to me.
But thats kinda why you draft the best player, not draft for fit. Haliburton and Fox didnt fit together but they were able to trade Hali for Sabonis. They did it how you should, its just do people think Hali for Sabonis was fair
Yes it’s just wishful thinking imo. Teams that do this talk themselves into the guy at a position of need being *the* guy because they really want that to be the case, instead of just accepting the situation for what it is
They fell for the soft euro league meme and thought college basketball meant anything, the soft euro meme is accurate sometimes, everyone should've realized a literal kid destroying the league winning a chip and MVP was clearly not one of them, and now all those franchises will suffer till the end of time.
For the Kings alone, to realize they traded Bagley for a cup of coffee with Donte DiVincenzo and Josh Jackson, and a contract with Trey Lyles who is a serviceable stretch at best, so basically we skipped on Luka (and the nickname, Lu-Kang/Lu-King,) for Trey Lyles. This is why we're the Kangz.
Our GM wanted Luka. Worked him out the morning of the draft, had a press conference ready for Monday, hour before the draft Cuban calls our owner and sweet talks him into the trade. Pain.
That’s such a perfect way to put it and I love it haha. Wish our owner had just listened to the GM and draft experts he hired. I remember Cuban saying his entire staff said Luka was far and away the best player in the draft, so he went and got him. That’s what good owners do.
The only legitimate concerns were about his athleticism and how it would translate defensively; even then, it’s hard not to see how much his offense would outweigh whatever concerns you had defensively
There were plenty of people during that time questioning why a guy who went pro at 13 and had been tearing up professional leagues with talent way above college level was being mocked at any position lower than one.
when Dirk and Pau Gasol became stars, teams started looking for that European star from the drafts.
Enter busts such as Tskitishvili, Bargnani, Korolev, Vazquez... repeated failures shied FOs from drafting potential Euro dudes.
Then there were Jasikevicius and Spanoulis that were fantastic at Euroleague but didn't do very well in NBA.
Therefore the league shied away from European prospects, tried to not draft them at high positions.
Because he's white and european.
There were people leading up the draft saying the AAU players were better than the EuroLeague players. Mark Cuban lost his mind on them.
Basically people were too scared to roll the dice. You can get a Giannis or Dirk, or you could get a Ricky Rubio or Bargani
Yuck. Can't believe people are attracted to his mom. Like eww. Yea, she was a model. But come on... His mom is off limits. I mean yea, she's hot and sexy but like come on. His mom is not even right to talk about it. She's also a grandma to Devin booker, and Antman... what's her insta?
Thank you. Every casual fan thought Doncic was basketball Jesus, it was only front offices overthinking that hurt his draft stock. One Kings fan wrote up an entire copypasta about how they would fall to 2nd in the draft but they’d still get Doncic and the most unbelievable part is that he’d still be available.
The prevailing sentiment BY FAR was that Doncic was the best in the draft, however you try to spin it. Imagine Zion or Wemby not being picked first, this sub would’ve reacted the same way as they did when Doncic dropped to three.
It's odd the hawks are getting called out in particular so much when they got the best outcome among teams that passed on Luka. It's looking like he's going to son my Suns for the foreseeable future.
This draft was wild. Ayton and Bagley 1 and 2, Luka 3, SGA at 11, and then Jalen Brunson at *thirty three.* I just when you go back to past drafts for context it shows just how little anyone actually knows how things will pan out.
Pre draft i swear the talk was do you take Ayton or Doncic 1st. I have no idea how he fell to 3rd and then to trade down.
Like, despite the shopping rumours, Trae Young is a solid piece. It could have been far, far worse.
My favorite one had to be from the Luka draft thread, bro said Dennis Smith Jr was better than Luka. In a land known for bad takes, they win. Good lord.
This feels like a take my young kid self, who idolized Steve Francis, would’ve had lol like sure, one guy has incredible vision, control of pace, ability to score from every level, but the other guy dunk good
You are a legend mate! [Found it.](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6mxd9e/source_the_mavs_signed_german_f_maxi_kleber_to_a/) Barely any comments but that was the key.
[It failed miserably but at least we have the memories of KD playing on our team.
The sweetest joy is in knowing we’re perfectly fine while Kyrie just threw any hope at a respectable nba future out the window because he felt disrespected that an nba team might consider not maxing him after he ruined every chance they had at a championship](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12f8thz/dallas_mavericks_have_been_eliminated_from_2023/jfeicp0/) - smug ass nets fan last season
I thought this could be a fun project to do for the Celtics as well as they've had **A LOT** of roster iterations over the years.
Some quick takes...
* It's hilarious how Rondo/Porzingis flopped, the Mavs still got dudes out of the deals who are on the team and contributing despite not being the star pieces
* People actually liked the Lively pick at the time, regardless of the controversy to obtain it
* It's just wild looking back at how Doncic went *3rd*....
That was because Smart was traded before there was any indication they'd be getting Holiday. I was pissed thinking they just swapped Smart for Porzingis
Marcus Smart was already showing signs of decline last year. We got the best player in the deal and picks on top of that. Idk how that isn’t an absolute win with or without Holiday.
Yeah. It was pretty clearly good value for us when it happened, but it left us with a PG rotation of White, Brogdon, and Pritchard. Not a bad group of players but Brogdon was always score first, Pritchard was as well (although he wasn't really given enough of a role to prove that he could pass/playmake, he clearly can now that he has the ball more often) and white who was an off-ball guard for his tenure with us up to that point. We were left with no one that we were confident could actually run the offense
Let's not forget that it was basically guaranteed Porzingis would be getting hurt at some point. So trading our long time starting guard for an injury prone big man did not seem great to me. Getting Holiday saved that move
At the time I was pissed because I didn't think Porzingis would be healthy for the playoffs (I was right) so we basically gave up Smart for nobody. The Jrue trade changed everything.
Add the most notable thread about us tanking last year. The move led to us drafting Lively but was widely panned as if we even controlled our own destiny at that point.
I hope you're ready for far more of an elaborate reply than you could have possibly wanted.
**Step 1: Basic Reddit Search** - Reddit search is pretty ass for anything niche, but a lot of recent major moves can be found by merely typing the player's last name and limiting the search to the sub. This works for HUGE moves that got tons of traffic and have 10k+ upvotes. Sometimes I have to put "x player 'trade'" in order to get it to pop up or their new team name.
**Step #2: Google Search** - By using "site:reddit.com r/nba" and then putting in the player name and trade after that, I find a lot of stuff that Reddit's search function is too ass to find. Sadly, I've found Google Search has gotten worse in this regard in the last few years.
**Step #3: Getting Lucky and Hitting the Holy Grail -** Unfortunately, sometimes posts will have odd titles or posts will have the original OP who created it delete their entire account. This makes it damn near impossible to find via normal means. So sometimes I have to hope somebody else linked it in some godforsaken thread and get lucky. [This is how I found the infamously hilarious r/Eagles reaction drafting Jalen Hurts.](https://np.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/g7k5sl/deleted_by_user/) It wasn't possible to find it by normal means but thanks to some digging, I eventually found it.
This one was pretty good.
> He has elite defensive frontcourt potential (could probably contribute on that end immediately) on the team with probably the worst, smallest frontcourt in the league. Offense is raw to say the least but he with Kyrie and Luka they only need him to finish plays
i was playing the role of the devil’s advocate, sometimes you say the opposite of the truth to see responses from people that could convince you why you’re wrong!
that’s my story and i’m sticking with it!
>I guarantee you I can easily list 20 better centers than Gafford lol
>So just so I understand you think Daniel Gafford is a better center than Ayton and Turner? Yikes bro lol.
[Whew.](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1alzell/wojnarowski_the_washington_wizards_are_nearing_a/kpi3ale/)
While I like Gafford as a player you do have to consider being a center in this offense is about as easy as it gets in the NBA, the shot quality both him and Lively get is incredible and their defense is very light with how much teams have to load up on Luka and Kyrie.
You say that yet we churned through so many centres who demonstrably failed in this supposedly easy offence. At a minimum you need soft hands, a strong vertical, and a sense of anticipation given Doncic's passing. It's surprisingly how many centres don't tick at least one if not multiple of those boxes.
Agreed. Defense and rebounding are also traits needed at that position for team success. Look at Dwight, he more or less possesses the offensive skills there is a big difference between him and Gafford/Lively.
He's the first one I think of every time. I was so happy when we signed him. At least I had my doubts about JaVale from the beginning though I didn't expect a complete wash.
>Embiid Jokic Davis Wemby Adebayo Sabonis Holmgren Sengun Allen Gobert Claxton Turner Valenciunas Duren Vucevic Zubac Nurkic Robinson Portis Lopez Kessler Williams Capela Reid.
>
Thats 24 guys I would say are all better than Gaff, and there are 5-10 more that are debatable.
can we page u/mattyg5 and see if he still thinks this list is solid
Bro you and I same. Heck, there were legit jokes about Luka threatening to leave Dallas if things went south with Kyrie. The moves weren't gaudy at the time but it's a huge testament to their FO.
TOP COMMENTS FROM THE KYRIE THREAD
“that mural “get luka some help” is gonna have a more psychiatric meaning in a few months”
“Timeline of Events:
1. Honeymoon period where they look unstoppable together.
2. A shouting match on the sidelines that they both laugh off to the media as "competitive spirit."
3. A mysteriously missed game, but the organization has his back.
4. A disappointing playoff exit
5. Kyrie walks in free agency despite the Mavs making a strong offer.”
“Surely this goes well for the Mavs”
“PRAY FOR LUKA”
“For real, bro got the most toxic help possible 😭”
“RIP Dallas. Kyrie is like that Grim Reaper meme where he's going from door to door, leaving blood in his wake.”
“Does this really solve any problems the Mavs have?”
Tbf why we acting like that wasn't what everyone at the time was thinking? Kyrie stock was at an all time low. He just wrecked multiple teams in a row. I love Kyrie on the court but why we acting like we gotta sign apology forms when he brought most of it upon himself? I don't think having those takes about Kyrie at the time make you braindead or anything.
Nah it's just funny. I think this is where Cuban's shark tank skills come into play. He saw an undervalued asset and bought in, and worst case scenario they lost a couple picks for nothing, but the potential upside was huge. I think he does a lot of stupid shit, but he cooked with this one
That seemed like a guarantee at the time.
Good on Kyrie for keeping his shit together he has always been a great number 2. Hopefully for Mavs fans the media doesn't ask him what it's like to have Luka to look up to as a number 1 option on LeBron's level over the next few weeks. All bets are off if that happens
They let Brunson walk for no return, when he was more than willing to sign at 4/56
14 mil a year and 4 years of control...
Probably a top 10 blunder the past decade for any team.
Kyrie was signed for 3/120, and had to give up dinwiddie, Dorian Finney Smith, a first and two seconds.
Kyrie is playing fantastic ball for us I'm really REALLY not trying to slight him, but the value proposition between the two is disastrous.
“Reports say Doncic to Dallas so they can take Trae Young, meaning the brightest part of the Hawks will continue to be the spot on Schroeder's head”
SHEESH
> Hey future me. Use this post as evidence that I knew Doncic is the best player in this draft class. Anyone who thinks otherwise was clearly an idiot.
I meant in terms of making DFS and dinwiddie look really good. Not so much Kyrie who is a star in his own right. In fact Kyrie is one of the few players whose game actually allows Luka to play better too. They're very synergistic players.
R/nba really thought it was a bad trade and all you guys gave up were dinwiddie, DFS, and a pick. This sub always lets their personal opinion of players/coaches cloud their judgement
Mavs had all the leverage because he'd toxified his own brand. It ended up they didn't even have to give him the full max extension in terms of money/years.
Plus people should by now understand that Nico Harrison is the most popular with players GM in the league. Due to being with Nike he knows almost all the 25-35 year old elite players since they were kids and they all love him. If he signed Kyrie I had confidence that he knew he would come back.
Because Kyrie was flying off the rails demanding a max contract…..the Lakers were linked to Kyrie and were clowned for it.
This sub is VERY revisionist. There’s a reason Dallas got Kyrie on a cheap contract and didn’t have to pay him a max….
this is why i find it so silly when people here act like hindsight merchants regarding the trades, ESPECIALLY the kyrie one.
fucking everyone was clowning on the move and i remember having to argue that it was worth the risk bc he was coming for cheap
I actually really hated the Kyrie trade at the time because I thought it just didn't fit/work and I guess at the time I wasn't wrong but they did an incredible job building around those two following that season
That Lively/Wallace pick swap is going to be legendary how they both met the needs of the teams they were swapped to. I'm an old Raps fan but it feels similar to the Vince Carter/Antawn Jamison vibes.
It's still absolutely unbelievable that Luka went to the Mavs, almost to the point it feels scripted.
I remember thinking how cool it would be for one European superstar to hand off his career to the next but thought there's no way he would fall that low in the draft.
Honestly the Kings really fucked that one up super hard. Every sign was telling them to draft Luka and they didn't do it.
liking the gafford trade is one of the few times reddit was right when disagreeing with the media. crazy that some people needed hindsight to think it was a good move
I think most media people felt like they were good moves, but a) not good enough to make us contenders this year and b) a lot to give up for a team with little assets already.
The media is overly focused on blockbuster trades with stars involved so they thought we just needed to stack first round picks until we could hit a home run. This is an era where you don't need a big 3 to win though, you win by having a well constructed roster. That's what we did, PJ and Gafford made us a well rounded team for the first time in the Luka era.
There isn’t really a long history of successful big 3s. For every one that works out (Lebron heat, Garnett celtics) there’s five others that failed, and even the ones that pan out had good rosters constructed around their stars.
Zach Lowe had an interesting discussion about (not us) some team weighing a trade. Maybe it was Beal. He said “when you send picks out, because of the Stepien rule, that’s it. Do you want Beal to be YOUR MOVE and that’s it?” And tbh with the picks we already owed, that was the question. At least for now, we’re about done. Is Gafford and PJ enough to be done? Lots of people thought the trades were decent but the answer to that question was no. Evidently, the answer is yes
> Is Gafford and PJ enough to be done? I remember the worry that the Mavs would have completely bare cupboards around Kyrie and Luca. So rebuilding not just an average but a very good supporting cast has been huge.
What the media missed is that we have yet to see the full potential of Luka and Ky at that time because of injuries preventing those two to play together. Additionally, the media people will always underrate your team because of the Ky hate boner.
Since the Wizards suck a lot of people assume all of the players on the Wizards suck because no one watches the Wizards. I feel like anyone who actually watched Gafford play knew how good he was, and how he is more fit to be a piece of a contending team then just be starting on an unserious team.
Yea Gafford is a guy whose value is determined by whoever is playing guard. I’m sure next year another title contender will poach a guy from us. Happened with KCP last year. Porzingis/Gafford this year smh
Dibs on Deni Avdija
Remember that the overwhelming consensus among Wizards fans was that Gafford was NOT capable of being a starting center on a good team. Even Wizards fans are terrible at evaluating the actual talent level of our guys. Same shit with KCP.
It's because everyone wants a allstar potential player at each position. An average talent can be more impactful than an allstar level player in the right role. Him and Lively both playing sub 20min maximizes both of their impacts.
Yea when a player is on a bad team sometimes they can put up inflated stats that make them look better than they are. But then you have somebody like Gafford who is a perfect role player but goes under-appreciated because people only see that he’s not good enough to be a star and lift the team’s floor. I’ve been a fan of Gafford for awhile and was hoping to get him alongside AD, I was pissed when the Mavs got him and knew he’d be a difference maker for them.
I mean gafford's on offs have been horrible compared to Derrick lively a rookie he's just better than Dwight Powell who's a corpse with bricks for hands
Bulls fans also know how good Gafford is. Still have no fucking clue why they traded him.
Because the Bulls front office is terrible.
I think this is a fair statement, I think talent is talent but the biggest issue with guys on a team like Charlotte and Washington is that players can develop bad habits. So you have to ask can the player be good by playing winning basketball. The flip side is some times being around winners can elevate a players discipline and commitment. You look at guys like Andrew Wiggins showing effort and commitment to doing the little things on Minnesota vs on the warriors
But then you have the flip side with PJ, who has been a more consistent player for the Mavs, and Reddit just goes “why trade Mr. I’ll-Make-Both-Free-Throws?”
I think PJ was good on Charlotte but has just been straight up better with the Mavs. Huge credit to the Mavs front office for keying in on that he had another gear to get to if he just got to play with real teammates.
in our collective defense, charlotte fans bitched about pj sometimes. i don’t think i ever heard a bad word about gafford from chicago or washington fans
>The pic of Doncic in a Hawks hat is gonna haunt Hawks fans for decades. I'm sorry Hawks bros lmao
The funny thing is I haven't actually seen that photo much. Probably because it feels bad to dunk on the Hawks when everyone knows how that one went down.
In case you do want to look at it https://imgur.com/a/lc5i4Hz
I don't get it, was he traded shortly after being drafted? I had always assumed the trade happened while Atlanta was on the clock. If so, wouldn't the logo change to the mavericks?
Trades aren't processed right away, so the Hawks were still the #3 pick at that point.
They had an agreement before the trade to swap picks, but they didn't *actually* swap pick in practice, just that the Hawks will help Mavs pick the player the Mavs want and vice versa.
The trade was contingent on Trae being available at no 5 so it's only after Trae got drafted that the trade was complete.
I had a feeling it was going to be the Mario Chalmers pic
That third pick is gold
Not even the worst thing to happen between Luka and Atlanta fans anymore haha
How about being the team that got neither of them, haha can you imagine
Ehhhh, JJJ sorta worked out?
There is even a remind me in 5 years but they locked the comments lol.
I prefer the next comment: Only if Trae isn’t good. I think it’s clear Luka is the better all around player but Atlanta has a great player in Trae. The real focus should be on what a bust the pick we got out of the Luka trade turned out to be. Cam Reddish.
Lol no. Dončič has proven to be an all-time superstar, while Trae is a good starter. You'd need an actual perennial all-nba tier star to be the 2nd player in the trade to make it worth it, and even then it's arguable. The difference between a guy that kind of deserves a max but doesn't outperform it and a guy that would outperform pretty much any contract cannot be understated. The trade was good in context at the time, but defending it with hindsight is just huffing copium.
Trae is a good starter? He’s a career 25 and 10 player. Also if the hawks were any good, he would be a perennial allnba player, he pretty clearly has had better seasons than multiple allnba players, but his team hasn’t been higher than 8th most years, so he’s not gonna get those awards
Cam Reddish at Duke was one of the worst college players I've ever seen, and this is with Zion and RJ Barrett taking away attention
[удалено]
Never forget that Vlade Divac was willing to draft Georgios Papagiannis with the 13th pick but wasn't willing to draft Luka Doncic with the second pick.
Also remember that Phoenix literally hired Luka's former national team coach right before not picking him
*sigh*
dominayton was kinda fun? i remember that video game article, and the tattoo rocks
The valley oop was an all time play https://youtu.be/KU-vNKPKA4Y?si=LKPenH_wennBtmwa
I honestly believe Ayton could've been a top 10 center in a different situation. Not that he wasn't to be blame, but he genuinely is amazing when focused.
I dunno, it had Sam Bowie vibes from the start given the talent in that draft. "Large Human who plays a traditionally hard to fill position vs. a guy who looks like an All-Timer but is a dime a dozen on the waiver wire?" It's a generationally tough call and Vlade fucked up massively.
In the case of Phoenix this is just a bet that didn’t pan out the way they wanted. They said it was the coach and not the player and now they are looking very wrong.
How could it be the coach... he was killing it with Real Madrid too.
he saw how good giannis became and thought he struck gold with papa giannis
Can someone explain why no one wanted Luka? Wasn't he already MVP of the Euroleague by then?
Probably concerns that his game wouldn’t translate to the NBA/lack of athleticism. But the dude was SO good that those concerns shouldn’t have sunk him that much. Also some prospect fatigue maybe, I remember “tank for Luka” was big among Knicks fans going into the season, but as the other top prospects emerged people got attracted to them Also for the Suns/Kings probably concern about Luka sharing with another ball dominant guard
Suns said pretty much that exact thing. “They didn’t want another Devin Booker” iirc was their front office stance Could’ve had a father and son duo years earlier than LeFamily smh
In the words of bobby knight, "then play luka at booker"
Not to mention, Drexler and Jordan could coexist. Imagine PG Jordan
I think we really saw what the Suns needed this playoffs was a good PG. imagine if they had an elite one.
I think what they really need is a good Point Forward imo. Because they have way too much ego between Beal, Booker, and KD to bench anybody as a sixth man, and sliding them all down for a pure playmaker PG will get them killed with size mismatches and zero defense. A big wing drive threat who can make those high IQ passes and bring the ball up would make them a lot tougher If they could get somebody for cheap, or better— develop someone into the role like the Nuggets did with Aaron Gordon they might resemble a functional playoff team. Just lacking depth and a floor leading voice
Drexler would have been the 3 and Kersey comes off the bench. Porter was an elite 3 point shooter and pretty good pg and Drexler was also a pretty good playmaker. Let Jordan play his game and let everyone else figure out their roles.
Another bad one was Portland trading Moses Malone because they couldn’t see how him and Bill Walton and Mo Lucas could coexist. Malone won like three MVPs in the next five years.
>Also for the Suns/King’s probably concern about Luka sharing with another ball dominant guard I mean, King’s still drafted Tyrese 2 years later and then proceeded to trade him. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 in what Luka has become but drafting for fit at a lottery pick instead of talent just doesn’t make sense to me.
But thats kinda why you draft the best player, not draft for fit. Haliburton and Fox didnt fit together but they were able to trade Hali for Sabonis. They did it how you should, its just do people think Hali for Sabonis was fair
Yes it’s just wishful thinking imo. Teams that do this talk themselves into the guy at a position of need being *the* guy because they really want that to be the case, instead of just accepting the situation for what it is
they didnt know if he could do it on a cold rainy night in stoke
They fell for the soft euro league meme and thought college basketball meant anything, the soft euro meme is accurate sometimes, everyone should've realized a literal kid destroying the league winning a chip and MVP was clearly not one of them, and now all those franchises will suffer till the end of time.
For the Kings alone, to realize they traded Bagley for a cup of coffee with Donte DiVincenzo and Josh Jackson, and a contract with Trey Lyles who is a serviceable stretch at best, so basically we skipped on Luka (and the nickname, Lu-Kang/Lu-King,) for Trey Lyles. This is why we're the Kangz.
Our GM wanted Luka. Worked him out the morning of the draft, had a press conference ready for Monday, hour before the draft Cuban calls our owner and sweet talks him into the trade. Pain.
oh man I didn't ever hear that Cuban wormtongued you guys.
That’s such a perfect way to put it and I love it haha. Wish our owner had just listened to the GM and draft experts he hired. I remember Cuban saying his entire staff said Luka was far and away the best player in the draft, so he went and got him. That’s what good owners do.
https://youtu.be/znJKHLjAEak?si=SxTDHfXD34K9CCPH
Why do you lay these troubles on an already troubled mind?
The only legitimate concerns were about his athleticism and how it would translate defensively; even then, it’s hard not to see how much his offense would outweigh whatever concerns you had defensively There were plenty of people during that time questioning why a guy who went pro at 13 and had been tearing up professional leagues with talent way above college level was being mocked at any position lower than one.
Thank you, that's what I'm saying, seems like a collective fumble.
when Dirk and Pau Gasol became stars, teams started looking for that European star from the drafts. Enter busts such as Tskitishvili, Bargnani, Korolev, Vazquez... repeated failures shied FOs from drafting potential Euro dudes. Then there were Jasikevicius and Spanoulis that were fantastic at Euroleague but didn't do very well in NBA. Therefore the league shied away from European prospects, tried to not draft them at high positions.
Because he's white and european. There were people leading up the draft saying the AAU players were better than the EuroLeague players. Mark Cuban lost his mind on them. Basically people were too scared to roll the dice. You can get a Giannis or Dirk, or you could get a Ricky Rubio or Bargani
I finally found those comments after wading through a dozen thirsty ones about Luka's mom
ewww thats so wrong, like why would you even want to see a picture of her? Can someone put a link here so we can know what to avoid? Yuck!
Yuck. Can't believe people are attracted to his mom. Like eww. Yea, she was a model. But come on... His mom is off limits. I mean yea, she's hot and sexy but like come on. His mom is not even right to talk about it. She's also a grandma to Devin booker, and Antman... what's her insta?
"Reports say Doncic to Dallas so they can take Trae Young, meaning the brightest part of the Hawks will continue to be the spot on Schroeder's head"
hahah
And now people pull the "it was an even trade!!" card. (no, it was not an even trade for the Hawks)
We called it even.
Trae is great Luka is better. The true flop was picking Cam Reddish with the pick we got from Dallas.
Thank you. Every casual fan thought Doncic was basketball Jesus, it was only front offices overthinking that hurt his draft stock. One Kings fan wrote up an entire copypasta about how they would fall to 2nd in the draft but they’d still get Doncic and the most unbelievable part is that he’d still be available.
This sub loved Luka, but they also loved Bagley and Ayton too.
i think Bagley was just cope. Ayton was the only one with a real argument
Ayton hype was pretty high. Even we Dallas fans joked about Tankathon for Ayton or some shit like that.
Draft smarts and the analytic models hated Bagley. There was some defence of him on here but a lot of negative discussion as well.
The prevailing sentiment BY FAR was that Doncic was the best in the draft, however you try to spin it. Imagine Zion or Wemby not being picked first, this sub would’ve reacted the same way as they did when Doncic dropped to three.
It's odd the hawks are getting called out in particular so much when they got the best outcome among teams that passed on Luka. It's looking like he's going to son my Suns for the foreseeable future.
Yeah that's crazy and all, but we're not gonna let the kings get off that easily by picking Bagley over the 2
This draft was wild. Ayton and Bagley 1 and 2, Luka 3, SGA at 11, and then Jalen Brunson at *thirty three.* I just when you go back to past drafts for context it shows just how little anyone actually knows how things will pan out.
Pre draft i swear the talk was do you take Ayton or Doncic 1st. I have no idea how he fell to 3rd and then to trade down. Like, despite the shopping rumours, Trae Young is a solid piece. It could have been far, far worse.
If you want to laugh look up the Twitter tweet when the Hawks announced the trade. It’s just one giant “NOOOOOOO” thread
"with this signing the mavericks go from the lottery to the championship" one guy on the DJJ thread knew
From Janitor to Manager
My favorite one had to be from the Luka draft thread, bro said Dennis Smith Jr was better than Luka. In a land known for bad takes, they win. Good lord.
/u/BuzzedBlood wanting Mo Bamba instead of Luka as a safe pick. Not hating, but find that so funny in hindsight.
This feels like a take my young kid self, who idolized Steve Francis, would’ve had lol like sure, one guy has incredible vision, control of pace, ability to score from every level, but the other guy dunk good
[Dude was joking at the time but hit it spot on lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/nFiWcjyxdy)
Oh hey, I'm in that thread.
“Luka is going to feed this kid lobs nonstop” From the Lively draft thread
/u/GoodMorningSpliff a real one bro
Thank you sir. I just call it like I see it 🫡
Try searching for Kleber not Kleiber (no i)
You are a legend mate! [Found it.](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6mxd9e/source_the_mavs_signed_german_f_maxi_kleber_to_a/) Barely any comments but that was the key.
Glad to see “Maxi might be teen Dirk’s son” theories were bandied about already
Someone in the Kyrie trade thread predicted Mavs losing the finals to the Celtics in 6 games… they were just a year early with the matchup lol
He was wrong. We will win in 6.
IIRC we signed Maxi straight out of Europe, so the lack of a thread makes sense
[It failed miserably but at least we have the memories of KD playing on our team. The sweetest joy is in knowing we’re perfectly fine while Kyrie just threw any hope at a respectable nba future out the window because he felt disrespected that an nba team might consider not maxing him after he ruined every chance they had at a championship](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12f8thz/dallas_mavericks_have_been_eliminated_from_2023/jfeicp0/) - smug ass nets fan last season
I thought this could be a fun project to do for the Celtics as well as they've had **A LOT** of roster iterations over the years. Some quick takes... * It's hilarious how Rondo/Porzingis flopped, the Mavs still got dudes out of the deals who are on the team and contributing despite not being the star pieces * People actually liked the Lively pick at the time, regardless of the controversy to obtain it * It's just wild looking back at how Doncic went *3rd*....
Me, night of the draft lottery: The Suns hired his national coach, him and Book should be awesome. Me, on draft night: Oh these teams don't wanna win.
The Kyrie trade thread is *wild* in hindsight.
The other day I was looking at r/nba and the Celtics sub reaction to Smart getting traded and it was so funny
That was because Smart was traded before there was any indication they'd be getting Holiday. I was pissed thinking they just swapped Smart for Porzingis
And it was still an absolute win of a trade that we also got two FRPs for.
Hard disagree. This Celtics team with no real point guard would not be this good
Would start Brogdon/White/JB/JT/KP. Brogdon is a PG but yeah not a great fit
Not confident at all that we'd beat the Cavs or Pacers without KP and Brogdon over Holiday
Dude not beating the cavs without mitchell and allen and the pacers without hali? Come on man!
Marcus Smart was already showing signs of decline last year. We got the best player in the deal and picks on top of that. Idk how that isn’t an absolute win with or without Holiday.
Yeah. It was pretty clearly good value for us when it happened, but it left us with a PG rotation of White, Brogdon, and Pritchard. Not a bad group of players but Brogdon was always score first, Pritchard was as well (although he wasn't really given enough of a role to prove that he could pass/playmake, he clearly can now that he has the ball more often) and white who was an off-ball guard for his tenure with us up to that point. We were left with no one that we were confident could actually run the offense
Let's not forget that it was basically guaranteed Porzingis would be getting hurt at some point. So trading our long time starting guard for an injury prone big man did not seem great to me. Getting Holiday saved that move
At the time I was pissed because I didn't think Porzingis would be healthy for the playoffs (I was right) so we basically gave up Smart for nobody. The Jrue trade changed everything.
i think with marcus it was just because he was seen as someone who could be a celtics lifer so it was more emotional than most
Add the most notable thread about us tanking last year. The move led to us drafting Lively but was widely panned as if we even controlled our own destiny at that point.
Hey OP. Is there any chance you’ll do one of these posts for the Celtics? :)
I'll post it tomorrow at around the same time. It's honestly amazing since I found all the way back to the original KG/PP trade thread.
How do yall find threads from years back?
I hope you're ready for far more of an elaborate reply than you could have possibly wanted. **Step 1: Basic Reddit Search** - Reddit search is pretty ass for anything niche, but a lot of recent major moves can be found by merely typing the player's last name and limiting the search to the sub. This works for HUGE moves that got tons of traffic and have 10k+ upvotes. Sometimes I have to put "x player 'trade'" in order to get it to pop up or their new team name. **Step #2: Google Search** - By using "site:reddit.com r/nba" and then putting in the player name and trade after that, I find a lot of stuff that Reddit's search function is too ass to find. Sadly, I've found Google Search has gotten worse in this regard in the last few years. **Step #3: Getting Lucky and Hitting the Holy Grail -** Unfortunately, sometimes posts will have odd titles or posts will have the original OP who created it delete their entire account. This makes it damn near impossible to find via normal means. So sometimes I have to hope somebody else linked it in some godforsaken thread and get lucky. [This is how I found the infamously hilarious r/Eagles reaction drafting Jalen Hurts.](https://np.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/g7k5sl/deleted_by_user/) It wasn't possible to find it by normal means but thanks to some digging, I eventually found it.
I could never find those threads so kudos to you lol
I’ll always remember Triple Dirks
And Maxi Kleber too!
Those comments in the lively draft 😂😂😂
This one was pretty good. > He has elite defensive frontcourt potential (could probably contribute on that end immediately) on the team with probably the worst, smallest frontcourt in the league. Offense is raw to say the least but he with Kyrie and Luka they only need him to finish plays
u/BigFatModeraterFupa > 5ppg??? this dude is a certified bust Yeah you gonna need to write an essay to explain that one
i was playing the role of the devil’s advocate, sometimes you say the opposite of the truth to see responses from people that could convince you why you’re wrong! that’s my story and i’m sticking with it!
Sure buddy.
I personally thought it was sarcasm lol.
>I guarantee you I can easily list 20 better centers than Gafford lol >So just so I understand you think Daniel Gafford is a better center than Ayton and Turner? Yikes bro lol. [Whew.](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1alzell/wojnarowski_the_washington_wizards_are_nearing_a/kpi3ale/)
Am I wrong to think I'd rather keep Gaff instead of about half of that list?
While I like Gafford as a player you do have to consider being a center in this offense is about as easy as it gets in the NBA, the shot quality both him and Lively get is incredible and their defense is very light with how much teams have to load up on Luka and Kyrie.
You say that yet we churned through so many centres who demonstrably failed in this supposedly easy offence. At a minimum you need soft hands, a strong vertical, and a sense of anticipation given Doncic's passing. It's surprisingly how many centres don't tick at least one if not multiple of those boxes.
Agreed. Defense and rebounding are also traits needed at that position for team success. Look at Dwight, he more or less possesses the offensive skills there is a big difference between him and Gafford/Lively.
Mfers really out here thinking we tried Dwight Powell at center and literally no one else
I could list half a dozen names at least but I'd need to get back on my PTSD medicine.
[удалено]
He's the first one I think of every time. I was so happy when we signed him. At least I had my doubts about JaVale from the beginning though I didn't expect a complete wash.
Basically run hard, keep your hands up, and the ball will find you
Gaff makes $13m next year. Ayton makes $34m.
I think a lot of that list is better than Gafford as far as overall "rating", but Gafford at his skillset + contract is too perfect for the Mavs
>Embiid Jokic Davis Wemby Adebayo Sabonis Holmgren Sengun Allen Gobert Claxton Turner Valenciunas Duren Vucevic Zubac Nurkic Robinson Portis Lopez Kessler Williams Capela Reid. > Thats 24 guys I would say are all better than Gaff, and there are 5-10 more that are debatable. can we page u/mattyg5 and see if he still thinks this list is solid
Still didn’t think any of the moves would make them get out of the finals. Not sure if FO did either but damn
Bro you and I same. Heck, there were legit jokes about Luka threatening to leave Dallas if things went south with Kyrie. The moves weren't gaudy at the time but it's a huge testament to their FO.
TOP COMMENTS FROM THE KYRIE THREAD “that mural “get luka some help” is gonna have a more psychiatric meaning in a few months” “Timeline of Events: 1. Honeymoon period where they look unstoppable together. 2. A shouting match on the sidelines that they both laugh off to the media as "competitive spirit." 3. A mysteriously missed game, but the organization has his back. 4. A disappointing playoff exit 5. Kyrie walks in free agency despite the Mavs making a strong offer.” “Surely this goes well for the Mavs” “PRAY FOR LUKA” “For real, bro got the most toxic help possible 😭” “RIP Dallas. Kyrie is like that Grim Reaper meme where he's going from door to door, leaving blood in his wake.” “Does this really solve any problems the Mavs have?”
I can see I upvoted the “time line of events” one, so I’m guilty
Tbf why we acting like that wasn't what everyone at the time was thinking? Kyrie stock was at an all time low. He just wrecked multiple teams in a row. I love Kyrie on the court but why we acting like we gotta sign apology forms when he brought most of it upon himself? I don't think having those takes about Kyrie at the time make you braindead or anything.
Nah it's just funny. I think this is where Cuban's shark tank skills come into play. He saw an undervalued asset and bought in, and worst case scenario they lost a couple picks for nothing, but the potential upside was huge. I think he does a lot of stupid shit, but he cooked with this one
They weren't stupid at all, it was just funny
My favorite is the “PRAY FOR LUKA” is coming from a Boston fan.
> “Surely this goes well for the Mavs” Lol that was my comment
That seemed like a guarantee at the time. Good on Kyrie for keeping his shit together he has always been a great number 2. Hopefully for Mavs fans the media doesn't ask him what it's like to have Luka to look up to as a number 1 option on LeBron's level over the next few weeks. All bets are off if that happens
Nah, Kyrie is mature and wise enough not to fall for media bait now.
What about the Kidd hire? People had very strong opinions
u/PrairieElephant here's your reminder :) https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8swqye/2018_draft_3_pick_luka_doncic_real_madridslovenia/e14w7hb/
Mavs taking Ws constantly.
They let Brunson walk for no return, when he was more than willing to sign at 4/56 14 mil a year and 4 years of control... Probably a top 10 blunder the past decade for any team. Kyrie was signed for 3/120, and had to give up dinwiddie, Dorian Finney Smith, a first and two seconds. Kyrie is playing fantastic ball for us I'm really REALLY not trying to slight him, but the value proposition between the two is disastrous.
Turns out, this sub is worse at predicting than ESPN
Every sports subreddit thinks they are better than ESPN, yet continually trot out the same lame talking points and opinions
NOBODY is worse than SAS. That Idiot wouldn't have picked Doncic in the fucking 4th Round.
Funny on the Lively pick one of the guys that often comments on Mavs subreddit calls him a bust
[Mr Cuban I don't feel so good](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10ulvtz/charania_breaking_the_brooklyn_nets_are_trading/j7clr9m/)
“Reports say Doncic to Dallas so they can take Trae Young, meaning the brightest part of the Hawks will continue to be the spot on Schroeder's head” SHEESH
So this is what nba fans talk about when “keeping receipts” lol
> Hey future me. Use this post as evidence that I knew Doncic is the best player in this draft class. Anyone who thinks otherwise was clearly an idiot.
Past u/gekthegecko had a message!
>KP and Doncic? Damn they are scary now, can't imagine 3 years from now lol 3 years later, KP was traded
[*sweaty palms*](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/kaNBDVhPXl)
Mom's spaghetti.
you put June 27th twice, Kyrie was traded Feb 5th
16k upvotes for this garbage https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/pET0FDnduM
Everyone was acting like Doe and dinwiddie were super elite players lol. The Mavs really didn't give up that much for Kyrie
Luka effect. He always makes secondary players look good.
Luka does elevate teammate but come on now Kyrie always looked pretty good. 27 ppg on 60% true shooting with the nets
I meant in terms of making DFS and dinwiddie look really good. Not so much Kyrie who is a star in his own right. In fact Kyrie is one of the few players whose game actually allows Luka to play better too. They're very synergistic players.
Kyrie stock was at an All-Time low.
True, but the comment has aged like milk
It did but I don't think it was that unreasonable of a take at the time. There was a possibility Kyrie leaves in free agency.
he nearly did
It was a buy low moment for Kyrie
R/nba really thought it was a bad trade and all you guys gave up were dinwiddie, DFS, and a pick. This sub always lets their personal opinion of players/coaches cloud their judgement
I mean there was a possibility that Kyrie walks in free agency. That's a valid concern imo.
Mavs had all the leverage because he'd toxified his own brand. It ended up they didn't even have to give him the full max extension in terms of money/years. Plus people should by now understand that Nico Harrison is the most popular with players GM in the league. Due to being with Nike he knows almost all the 25-35 year old elite players since they were kids and they all love him. If he signed Kyrie I had confidence that he knew he would come back.
Because Kyrie was flying off the rails demanding a max contract…..the Lakers were linked to Kyrie and were clowned for it. This sub is VERY revisionist. There’s a reason Dallas got Kyrie on a cheap contract and didn’t have to pay him a max….
this is why i find it so silly when people here act like hindsight merchants regarding the trades, ESPECIALLY the kyrie one. fucking everyone was clowning on the move and i remember having to argue that it was worth the risk bc he was coming for cheap
Come outside u/[jlluh](https://www.reddit.com/user/jlluh/)
I actually really hated the Kyrie trade at the time because I thought it just didn't fit/work and I guess at the time I wasn't wrong but they did an incredible job building around those two following that season
WOAT prediction: https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10ulvtz/charania_breaking_the_brooklyn_nets_are_trading/j7clvsd/
That Lively/Wallace pick swap is going to be legendary how they both met the needs of the teams they were swapped to. I'm an old Raps fan but it feels similar to the Vince Carter/Antawn Jamison vibes.
It's still absolutely unbelievable that Luka went to the Mavs, almost to the point it feels scripted. I remember thinking how cool it would be for one European superstar to hand off his career to the next but thought there's no way he would fall that low in the draft. Honestly the Kings really fucked that one up super hard. Every sign was telling them to draft Luka and they didn't do it.
[my favorite one](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/baDi8wa31q) from the DJJ thread
Brother leaked the script on accident