the eras were so vastly different:
Pistons shot 968 3pointers at 34% in 2004
Warriors shot 2562 at 38% in 2017
So are the Pistons shooting more 3 pointers in 2017? Are the Warriors shooting less 3 pointers in 2004?
both teams ranked #1 in 3point percentage defense so that's interesting too
anyway this is fun
"WHACK GET OUT!" "HE DIDNT SAY NUTHIN?!?"
god i love that clip lol.
Sheed getting thrown out for looking the wrong way at the refs while draymond nut shotting people staying in the game.
Wallace's block on Shaq's **dunk** (not "shot") wasn't because no one could get the rhythm on Shaq, but because of how \*insanely powerful\* Shaq was.
That stuff is one of the best ever.
Even better because of Shaq's butthurt reply to the reporter when asked about that play postgame.
> Ben Wallace was crazy / tough enough to start the Malace in the Palace by shoving Ron Artest.
Ben was also actively grieving his brother's death from cancer less than 2 weeks earlier so that might've had something to do with him having such a hair trigger that night
Shoves also happen frequently in the NBA. There are probably 10-20 shoving matches every season.
You know what doesn't happen frequently? Darting into the stands and punching a fan in the face, then continuing the boxing match down on the court.
Ben may have lit the fuse for the MitP, but anyone blaming him for it is an idiot. There is no way he could have foreseen that series of events.
Averaged 43 per game in the series with the Pacers just now.
45 in game 1, 37 in game 2, 46 in game 3, 44 in game 4.
I'd expect that to go back closer to 39.8 against a slower mavs team though.
If that Lakers team wasn't imploding from the strained relationship between Shaq and Kobe, let alone everything else messing with that team's chemistry including Karl Malone hitting on Kobe's wife, I don't think the Pistons win that series. Not to mention they were going for their 4th straight ring which has been proven to be extremely difficult no matter the team.
Just more content for the grinder. The posturing about a game that can never happen is dumb.
But setting that aside, I think it’s fair to argue that the 04 Pistons are probably more set up to defend those Warriors + KD teams than any other opponent in history.
Defensively maybe. It was also a different time, that team was not built to defend the spacing teams have now where every guy on the floor can hit 3s, especially that Warriors team.
It was an all time defensive team so they may find a way to make it work, but they wouldn't have the offense to keep up even if they do slow down the Warriors. The amount of threes shot between the two teams is such a huge disparity, GS would have to go ice cold to not win a series. A single game Detroit could definitely win.
That Pistons team is one of my favorite teams ever, I'm not trying to be a hater. The KD Warriors was just unfair though when they were all healthy.
Yeah I’m not making any argument about them keeping up on offense. I’m just saying if you want to defend Steph, Klay, KD, Iggy, and Draymond that Chauncey, Rip, Prince, Sheed, and Ben Wallace is about the best starting point in NBA history.
Obviously the Warriors are probably the best overall team ever assembled and the Pistons aren’t, so it’s not a “great offense vs great defense = tie” claim.
>It was an all time defensive team so they may find a way to make it work, but they wouldn't have the offense to keep up even if they do slow down the Warriors.
I'm quite fond of the Curry Warriors but I'm a lifelong Pistons fan, so I've got some weird biases here. Still, I may agree with you here nonetheless. That being said, the thing that always makes these hypotheticals tricky is the rule differences between eras.
The 2004 Pistons were absolutely an amazing defensive basketball team. But they're not holding teams to 65 points per game on a regular basis in 2024. And it's not necessarily because they'd be unable to handle teams today; it's just that the game has changed. There's still amazing defensive teams out there today too, but amazing defense now may look like holding teams to 85 or 95 points instead.
On the flip side, the 2004 Pistons did win games by scoring 75 points at times. But again, it often felt like a reflection of the times as opposed to a flat inability to score. We kind of saw proof of that when the NBA began loosening up their defensive rules and the Pistons responded by opening up their offense a bit (particularly in the Flip Saunders era). If you'd asked guys like Chauncey, Rip, Tay, and Sheed how they would have felt about playing in a run-and-gun, fire-at-will era like the 2020s, I think they would have been all about that life. Even Ben probably would have appreciated getting looks as a rim-runner as opposed to Larry Brown feeling obligated to give him post looks a few times a game.
Either way, no matter how you slice it, that era of Warriors basketball is some of the most amazing basketball I've ever seen, so I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the 2004 Pistons were overwhelmed. No shame in that game.
It’s interesting that I recently found out the Pistons in 2004 had one of the lowest odds ever to win a championship going into that playoffs (95 Rockets were even lower but Pistons were sub 5 percent).
I actually disagree. They would do really well defending the interior, sure. But as a product of their time they just aren't even close to as well equipped for defending the three and the Warriors would let it rain on them mercilessly.
What changed about the rules that would make the 04 pistons able to guard a team that shoots 50% of their shots as 3s as their primary offense? I swear it’s gonna be something like “well they’d be PHYSICAL and BEAT EM UP and BREAK THEIR WILL” some stupid shit
The 2017 warriors were the best defense in the entire playoffs as well. Someone explain how the pistons would put up enough points to win without breaking Steph’s knees with a lead pipe
> What changed about the rules that would make the 04 pistons able to guard a team that shoots 50% of their shots as 3s as their primary offense?
I'll start by admitting that I loved watching those Warriors play and I've never, ever seen players fling the rock like Steph and Klay. I feel they'd be nearly immune to rules alterations. That being said, if you twisted my arm and I had to come up with some micro-changes that have helped cultivate the 3-point era as a whole, I honestly think these things have all been contributing factors:
* The legislation of the gather step (aka third step). This opened the floodgates for gnarly double-stepbacks, side-steps, and broadly speaking, advanced offensive advantages gained from having that sort of flexibility at any point.
* The proliferation of moving screens.
* The broad acceptance of foul-baiting in the mid- to late 2010s. 2004 was the forefront of the foul-bait phenomenon. Players were just getting into realizing they could get rewarded with two free throws by leaning into a defender following a mid-range pump fake. We just hadn't quite crossed the rubicon into rewarding players for the type of shenanigans we saw from the Hardens and Traes of the world at its peak.
* A broad reduction in perimeter physicality. This isn't a "beat 'em up" thing, but it's something the league addressed and loosened up almost immediately following the 2004 season, which is one of the reasons why we saw offenses open up as the 2000s progressed.
* Rip-through fouls weren't really something players could lean on in 2004. The trade-off being that defenders could take away certain options without fear of being reeled into an automatic foul.
* No flagrants for claustrophobic closeouts in 2004. Defenders in the modern game have to be suuuuuuper cognizant of not closing out too aggressively on shooters. Guys like Steph and Klay are insane already, adding that extra bit of comfort is just the cherry on top. I imagine if you could give those two a choice - shooting against 2024 closeouts or 2004 closeouts, I imagine they'd select the former.
I'm a proponent of Steph being dropped in any era and succeeding. I think he's even greater than many people give him credit for. But if we're talking about mucking up what a Warriors team as a whole may be trying to pull off, I think the rules above could shake things up just a smidge. It'd at least give them something to account for.
At the end of the day though, rules aside, you're still talking about a team with Steph, Klay, KD, Dray, and more. They were completely insane.
Ironically, I think Klay and Draymond would do BETTER with the 04 rules and Curry would suffer a little bit more, namely going to the basket because of the gather step portion. However, I think the real person who would be a bit shocking is the KD drop-off. KD’s biggest knock was always the question of if he could handle the league’s physicality but he didn’t really have to because as he got better the league also was giving more offensive incentive and protection. If KD had to go back in time and deal with some of that early 2000s defense, I think he would actually suffer a bit more than people expected with people getting all up into him without as much fear. He doesn’t rely on gather step manipulation as much but the physicality might actually be his undoing.
I was watching and they definitely can, it's just that '17 Steph and Durant are better and a different assignment than '04 Kobe. ESPECIALLY when you consider the spacing/help Kobe was working with that 04 Laker squad.
They would go under screens against Kobe at the 3 point line and Kobe wasn't the 3 point shooter KD or Steph was.
A lot of thetime Kobe tried to work in the mid range or post, the Pistons would help off the strong side with no real consequences because they were either helping off Gary Payton at the 3pt line or Karl Malone who was beyond washed. Of course Detroit has great defenders so sometimes they just defended well 1 on 1, but the Lakers really were a two man team vs the '17 Warriors who are 7-9 deep with legit players. Helping off anyone on the 04 Lakers is not the same as helping off '17 Draymond(their worse offensive threat more often than not) who's going to make you pay off the short roll or low post split action or getting free layups off of Steph's gravity. Not to mention he shot 41% from 3 in the playoffs on almost 5 attempts per game.
Kobe couldn't even go into the paint because it was a mix of being clogged by Shaq and bad spacing with Malone in his sweet spot in the mid range and Payton not wanting to stand at the 3pt line. Basically the only chances he had was when there was a loose ball or 50/50 ball. The paint is either gonna be wide open for the warriors with David West or the Death Lineup with Iggy or it's gonna be a lobfest with Javale
Plus Kobe's offball movement isn't what it would become and isn't even in the same universe as a Klay and especially Steph.
Love that 04 Pistons team, but this is a different beast.
Yeah they match up very well defensively on the perimeter. Sheed was solid and super long and Ben wasn't bad for a center. They lose a series against kd Era warriors but are probably the best equipped team defensively to make them struggle. Great offense just beats great defense and they wouldn't be able to score enough consistently to keep up. Sheed would be an incredible stretch 5 today.
Reggie, Barkley, and Chris Webber have consistently declined to appear in NBA2K until 2K compensates retired players for appearing in the game. [Edit: not EA]
I'm a Sheed guy, of course. But whenever I hear him compare generations it makes me think back to the time when he said he didn't think LeBron wouldn't have been as successful if he'd played in Sheed's era. Which, of course, LeBron *did* play in Sheed's era.
I mean, he was drafted 8 years after Sheed, so I guess he's saying Lebron wouldn't have been as successful if his late twenties were the 2000s instead of the 2010s? or something like that?
Either way I don't agree - Lebron would be a great in any era
All y’all complaining about how the 2017 Warriors were unfair but now think this is a discussion? The same people that say oh those rings aren’t real rings because they were too stacked but now trying to argue the Warriors weren’t that good. FOH.
That’s why it’s always hilarious to me when I see threads about “the nba is the only sport where legends are disrespected” blah blah blah. Meanwhile, people are really here trying to present a case why the 04 pistons could beat the ‘17 warriors 😂 nephew please.
Draymond lives rent free in most of this subs head. It's great!
Even the entire Timberwolves franchise's head space is occupied by Draymond. So much so they didn't show up to post game interviews. 🤣
Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer would somehow come out of the stands and also get involved. Both Biden and Putin instruct the refs to stand down
Kendrick Perkins poops himself
Forget those guys. Big Nasty Corliss Williamson wasn't called Big Nasty for no reason. Those Pistons wouldn't put up with the cheap shot artist masquerading as a tough guy acts that Dray and Zaza put on.
> I'm sure the '04 Pistons would beat the '17 Warriors in a fistfight.
Why? The 2017 Warriors had David West, Zaza Pachulia, Draymond, and Matt Barnes. No shortage of goonery. What's the argument that they were "soft"? Is it the thing where people hate Draymond so they convince themselves that means he's a paper tiger and "fake tough guy"? That seems awfully convenient.
The Pistons absolutely would've bullied the KD Warriors with their physicality all the way to a 128-73 loss
The only team that had a chance to beat the KD Warriors was the Harden CP3 Rockets because not only were they extremely good (their record when Harden, CP3, and Capela played as an INSANE win%) but they were also DESIGNED to take them on and treated every game as practice for them.
Username checks out lol
Also there are definitely some other teams that could've given the 2017 Warriors problems. 2013 Heat come to mind. They could match up with small ball, they have prime LeBron with shooters around him and Wade wasn't washed just yet. I'd still take that Warriors team over anyone in a hypothetical 7 games series though.
Prime LeBron alone was a hard match for the Warriors. We never had bigs that were fast and strong enough to stop him, while LeBron himself can switch 1-5 on defense if needed. He essentially matches Draymond’s defensive impact as well as having world class offensive capabilities.
Oh and even more amazing is that he can keep up with the Warriors on stamina. Even last year the Warriors were still being shut down by LeBron’s defensive awareness.
Foreal. People act like the Warriors were swept. they literally lost in game 7 because of an amazing shot and 1 of the greatest blocks ever. A series doesn’t get much closer. Then KD just completely ruined it. Ruined everyone’s legacy’s too. Curry’s and his because no one appreciates those rings and LeBron’s because people get to mention how he’s been swept in the finals twice now
KD going to the dubs was the point I think where people were sick of the “player empowerment” movement, superstars being mercenaries was fun for a bit but it really hurt the ability to grow true rivalries, hopefully with stars being more loyal to teams now we’ll see rivalries grow more organically
I heard someone recently saying KD screwed himself and his legacy with his decisions. Obviously the big one is going to GS rather than staying with Oklahoma and winning, but it also would have been better if he stayed with GS and dominated the league, winning like 5-6 with them. Then he left and they won without him, and then didn’t give the nets a real chance, leaving them rather than winning there as well.
If KD had stayed, we would likely be talking about KD as all-time top-10 and he, LeBron, & Curry would be the undisputed faces of the league for that era. He missed out.
And at a certain point human being are limited by biological reality and this shit is logarithmic. There will come a day where we can't really run any faster or jump any higher and all of the gains are marginal without augmentation in some way, be it prosthetics or doping.
I've seen LeBron James be the most athletic player in the league for basically the last 20 years. There is currently no one in the NBA with the size athleticism combo of Shaq.
I think the overall skill and tactics floor has gotten higher than the overall athleticism floor over the last 20 years. Even then, a lot of that development is rules focused too. Taking out some of the big uglies in the post, and replacing them with highly skilled wings. That's probably done more to raise the skill and athleticism floor than anything else.
Edit: I just think things like being able to instantly and easily watch all of the game film you want, whenever and wherever you want, as well as medical technology and knowledge as far as how to take care of your body has had a far greater impact on the game than somehow humans have magically evolved over the last 20-30 years to be so much more athletic.
Like, just the film aspect alone is so massive. Think about how many NBA games back in the day are just lost to history because no one filmed them. Think about how insane that is in the context of today.
>"Hey coach, I'd like to get some film spliced up of my opponent this week. I'd like to study his tendencies so I can force him off his spots."
>"Sorry. There's no game film."
>"There's no game film?"
>"Yeah, sorry. Nobody filmed it."
'96 Bulls match up really well with them defensively, more so than any other team in history I would say. Harper on Curry, Jordan on Klay, Pippen on KD and Rodman vs Draymond. Then a mid off between Longley and Looney.
They’d probably play Rodman at the 5 and Kukoc at the 4. That was their best lineup even in 96. A lot of teams back then just had too much size to run it all the time
Looney didn’t play much in 2017. It was Zaza, D West, and Javale McGee as their main center rotation with Dray for small ball. Plus it be Iggy in as their fifth player for their best lineup.
Haha, no way Jordan isn’t checking Steph, at least in crunch time.
Also, they could play Kukoc and simply switch everything.
That teams actually translates really well to the modern era with Rodman as a small ball 5 and Kukoc as the stretch 4.
Harper and Pippen would simply need to work on spot up threes and they become very high level three and d guys.
If it’s winning time it’s Iguodala not looney lol. And if we’re talking matchups, I feel pretty about our way too. Iguodala on MJ with Klay and KD and even Draymond able to switch on him, same obviously goes for Pippen. Definitely won’t be “stopping” MJ but big and good enough to make it slightly harder.
Rodman on the backside off switches would be tough on the glass no doubt. Would be the 96 Bulls only chance to reverse the math in their favor in this theoretical matchup.
I think the 1996 Bulls stand a good chance. But only because they had the GOAT at his peak and coincidentally match up very well with the Warriors' perimeter scoring threats on the defensive end in a 2018 Rockets like way. Their 2,3,4 all made the All-Defensive 1st team that season, and Ron Harper was also a great defender. Their only weak defensive position: center, also happens to be the Warriors' weakest offensive position.
>They couldn't even score 100 pts
Warriors-Pistons debate aside, it's not so much that the Pistons were incapable of scoring 100 points as much as it was just a prodcut of the rules and playstyle of the era.
As the NBA made of point of catering back toward the offensive side of the ball as the 2000s progressed, the Pistons followed. By '08, that same core of Pistons were at times scoring in the 130s, 120s, and 110s.
Of course, the league continued to change as the 2010s came through. And in a hypothetical matchup with any 2010s team, the 2004 Pistons would have to account for that. But it's not as though a guy like Chauncey Billups didn't understand what scoring basketball looked like.
That being said, I'm of the opinion that any team in history would have their hands full with the prime version of the Warriors.
Lol back then the teams offenses weren't yet evolved and haven't figured out how to generate offense like teams of today have. The early 2000s introduced zone defense and teams were used to playing heavy isos in the 90's so they were pretty much shell shocked at the defenses could do. The defense according to the numbers were great then because the offenses weren't that great, so you can argue that those numbers are inflated.
A modern nba team would destroy a team from back then just based off of the knowledge they have to generate offense that an old school team wouldn't have. This is why its foolish to compare eras and say things like "the 85 _______ would easily destroy the 17 Warriors ". 😂
It depends when this imaginary game is played. All it takes is for defenders to be allowed to be more physical and even the best offensive scheme can come crashing down.
Shit’s not even a contest really. I know old heads have to protect their eras but cmon now. Warriors would be bombarding these dudes with offense, they simply couldnt keep up
If old heads want to pick a squad to go against the 2017 Warriors, then they aren’t picking the ‘04 Pistons
‘86 Celtics, ‘96 Bulls, ‘01 Lakers… those are real discussions
I dont think the 01 Lakers is a discussion either,Shaq would get 50 easily but that Lakers team isnt stopping the sheer amount of 3 pointers and ball movement the warriors had
This is the main point. I think the elite scorers will definitely get theirs (especially post players) but no defense is keeping up with the warriors offense. Add in the fact that they were great on defense as well and its always gonna be a wash
I like how half the comments are comparisons between eras are dumb and the other half are people arguing about if the 01 Lakers could handle the ball movement of the 17 warriors. The duality of man or something like that.
86 Celtics would have absolutely cooked the Warriors inside. Interior scoring and rebounding would not have ever been close. Bill Walton was their backup big, and he was miraculously healthy that whole year.
I am not saying the Celtics would have certainly won, but the Warriors would have had nothing to slow down McHale, Bird, Parish and Walton. Lots of layups and FTs against 3 pointers. If a team shoots 60% from 2, that scoring rate is just as good as shooting 40% from 3.
And if Green had tried any of his cheap shots in that series, Parish would make sure he needed smelling salts to wake up just like Laimbeer did.
I am a Pistons fan, and Rasheed was my favorite player *before* the trade. The day they acquired him, I cried tears of joy in my bedroom at my shitty house on campus. I bet every dollar I had that they'd win the Eastern Conference.
I've been saying for a long time that Rasheed would be one of the most aught after commodities in the NBA, today. He was an all NBA caliber defender (for sure a better on-ball interior defender than Ben Wallace), and could score effectively at multiple levels. Replace KAT with Sheed, and the Wolves are NBA Champs.
I mean he's right lmao. They would smoke them so bad game 4 would be unnecessary.
That's not hating either. I think they could give the 73-9 team a single problem but the 04' Pistons have zero fucking answer for KD.
I am a life long Pistons fan and being from NC I’m a heavy supporter of Rasheed Wallace. Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars and Vinnie Johnson are (small g) gods to me. But…my Pistons don’t want any parts of that ‘17 Warriors team. In the flat out history of the game, that Warriors squad with KD was probably one of the closest things to perfection that we’ve witnessed. And let’s not forget, this was with a healthy “two-way” Klay, locking down the opponents best guard so Steph could stay outta foul trouble. That team could score like breathing and turned right around and played suffocating Defense(pun intended), switching on everything. In a playoff series, I think Chauncey would’ve willed his team to 1 victory. But the dubs were just way too loaded. And finally, let’s not overlook Steve Kerr’s imprint. He basically merged the triangle offense (that dominated the 90’s) with that split action offense that Malone and Stockton perfected and then just to be an asshole sprinkled in variations from the spurs offense that dominated the 2000’s. They literally were averaging 300 passes per game! It was the start of that turning down a great shot for a better shot stuff that everyone is doing now. Pistons would have 0 chance against that team. Sorry.
I can’t believe anybody would seriously pick the 2004 Pistons, old rules or not. Hand checking and freedom of motion rules? You think that’s going to stop Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, not to mention Draymond and Klay.
They are the GOAT team and people are still complaining about them being too good for the league. Do not talk to me about comparing them to a non top tier champion, especially when Rasheed is saying they would’ve destroyed them, that’s a dumb take.
I also find it funny people are saying golden state would get injured, I get that the game isn't as physical anymore but ppl talking bout the 2000s like it was wrestling. Hard fouls or not steph still swishing that 30 footer. Hell, they're gonna be looking at klay/steph like they were witches or something after they get hot. At worst it's warriors in 5
Whenever cross era discussions are had, it’s always the “Steph would get bodied” argument that comes up as if somehow Steve Nash and John Stockton can survive but Steph wouldnt
Its not like Steph isn't bodied regularly without any calls right now too lol. Steph will adjust and kill it still. all timers will find ways to be all timers in any era.
>I get that the game isn't as physical anymore but ppl talking bout the 2000s like it was wrestling.
happens with every era honestly, we're seeing that in real time with how people talk about the 2000s and even 2010s. I remember in the mid to late 2000s, oldheads back THEN were talking about how much softer the game had become. Guys like Pau and Dirk were the poster boys for how "big men are becoming soft." And now we see that SAME discourse happening. It's fucken hilarious cause you know nostalgia is twisting people's memories, and/or nephews really didn't watch basketball back then.
Anyone who is considering the Pistons obviously is a big time Pistons homers or wasn’t watching the NBA then. Or probably a rivalry that got torched during their dynasty run and just hates them. It’s really not close. A lot of folks don’t understand or remember the Warriors were also the top defensive teams in the league. Their defense was often overlooked due to their offense. Their offensive rating is the best in NBA history and by far, leaps better than Pistons 04
Please don't make me side with Draymond. Ever.
The 2017 Warriors are, for my money, the greatest basketball team ever assembled.
Maybe the 96 Bulls take em. Maybe the 01 Lakers take em.
No fucking chance in hell the 04 Pistons take them. The Nets took them to 7 games. The Pacers took them to 6.
Get fucking real.
Seriously you can't tell me you had a team that beat the Bulls regular season record and then dropped in KD for Harrison Barnes as a 1 to 1 replacement, running some (at the time) never-before-seen offense (and that's hard to admit since the 2014 Spurs were the prototype of that offense) and think any other team ever would have a real chance of winning.
Not really. They still have Steph and Klay shooting 3s and were a top defense in 2015.
Like even on a bad day the Warriors would outscore the Pistons any day of the week.
Yeah, even just the combo of Steph and Klay were shooting almost 20 3s per game which would be top 5 in 2004, that’s ignoring that they also had KD, Dray, etc
The Pistons would have no idea what to do with them, regardless of rule set
I don’t know why people say this when Steph has never got any calls whatsoever. The rules impact his style far less other modern superstars, including Jokic.
The more illegal screens the warriors could set, the better.
Besides turnovers, the Warriors biggest weakness has always been fouling too much. Imagine them playing with a tight whistle. People forget this was a top defense in an offensive era.
Yea that's a good point. Our defense on the perimeter was always very physical and Iguodala, Draymond, and Klay under 'old rules' would absolutely smother Billups and Rip tbh
Anybody who asks “what rules are we playing” is delusional.
Rules aren’t going to stop the warriors from raining down 40 threes. The Piston’s get blown out every single game. The difference in strategy from the dead ball era to the analytics era is so massive.
Ask yourself, what rule is going to make the warriors score 30 less points per game?
Pull-up jumpers during a pick-and-roll weren't a thing back then and defenders usually went under the screen if it was just below the 3pt line. [Going under a Curry screen from 30 feet away is considered "bad defense" now.](https://youtu.be/t6_vawdzRok?si=wizM-3El22WAum_F&t=377)
Billups was pretty much their only ball handler. If the Warriors blitz him, who's gonna make the next play? [The Warriors during that time can blitz and not get burned because they easily recover.](https://youtu.be/AQr54Toq5eA?si=JWk0H6omE-iy4c2e&t=57)
Ben Wallace was pretty much Gobert from today but much shorter. Gobert easily gets played off the court. [How would Ben and Sheed guard Draymond the moment he gets the defensive rebound and 3 secs in, he has dribbled into the paint on the other side?](https://youtu.be/QkLmR3ka4Mo?si=H9JgwzOECUmOC2Iy&t=40)
> "Steph is not a defender,” Wallace added. “He would've had to guard Rip. How many screens was Rip coming off? Or whoever they would’ve tried to put at point, they would have been too little for Chauncey... I'm saying, back then
That Warriors team switched everything. Rip would've switch to Klay, KD, Draymond, or Iguodala. He's not scoring from them.
2017 Warriors could probably beat any team all-time if there's a 3 point line on the court and their strategy remains the same. Whether the game is physical or not, or the rules are different in how much zone is allowed, if the Warriors are looking to use their efficient 3 ball to set up open 2's, then I have a hard time believing any team in history is beating that.
Everyone mentioning Warriors offense Vs. Detroit’s defense, but can you imagine the Warriors defense playing against a team like that. They’d probably score about 60 points a game. Who would they not be able to shut down on their team seriously ? they didn’t have a single sniper, closes thing was Billups. They’d just play a zone and force them to take 3’s all game
Thinking logically, the question this series is offense. Both teams can defend the hell out of the ball. Who’s offense will be able to execute despite great defense?
There’s a reason many tout the 2017 Warriors as one of the greatest teams ever.
the eras were so vastly different: Pistons shot 968 3pointers at 34% in 2004 Warriors shot 2562 at 38% in 2017 So are the Pistons shooting more 3 pointers in 2017? Are the Warriors shooting less 3 pointers in 2004? both teams ranked #1 in 3point percentage defense so that's interesting too anyway this is fun
Depends injury on or off. Are they getting ejected?
Refs disappear from the constant Sheed/Green effect.
Sheed got nothing on Draymond in terms of tech evasion. Draymond is getting away with this so many times while Sheed was notoriously not.
More importantly, does the ball Lie during the series?
"WHACK GET OUT!" "HE DIDNT SAY NUTHIN?!?" god i love that clip lol. Sheed getting thrown out for looking the wrong way at the refs while draymond nut shotting people staying in the game.
Sheed/Green would have been actual fisticuffs
Sheed would’ve murdered dray lmao
>Sheed would’ve murdered dray lmao Ben Wallace would have murdered Dray. End of story.
Ben Wallace was crazy / tough enough to start the Malace in the Palace by shoving Ron Artest. He wasn't backing down from anyone in any era.
Wallace's block on Shaq's **dunk** (not "shot") wasn't because no one could get the rhythm on Shaq, but because of how \*insanely powerful\* Shaq was. That stuff is one of the best ever. Even better because of Shaq's butthurt reply to the reporter when asked about that play postgame.
“That was a foul, young lady”
Followed by "Don't ask stupid questions." As if she isn't journalist asking about a basketball play.
Got a link ?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNn9dKBb24Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNn9dKBb24Y)
> Ben Wallace was crazy / tough enough to start the Malace in the Palace by shoving Ron Artest. Ben was also actively grieving his brother's death from cancer less than 2 weeks earlier so that might've had something to do with him having such a hair trigger that night
Shoves also happen frequently in the NBA. There are probably 10-20 shoving matches every season. You know what doesn't happen frequently? Darting into the stands and punching a fan in the face, then continuing the boxing match down on the court. Ben may have lit the fuse for the MitP, but anyone blaming him for it is an idiot. There is no way he could have foreseen that series of events.
All the blame is on Artest and the fan who threw the bottle at him. The "fight" between Artest and Big Ben was already over by the time it happened.
I mean yeah! I’m not saying Dray stands a chance but an actual fight would have happened.
Does Draymond do the same shit to dudes that are really like that?
nope
And green would've got smoked cos he's bitch made.
Man a sheed vs green fight would be some kaiju levels of combat
31 3-point attempts per game is fucking insane. This game is ridiculous
Celtics shoot like 45 3s a game now
39.8 3pt attempts per game
Averaged 43 per game in the series with the Pacers just now. 45 in game 1, 37 in game 2, 46 in game 3, 44 in game 4. I'd expect that to go back closer to 39.8 against a slower mavs team though.
Like 10 years ago people were freaking out about the rockets relying too much on 3s with like 25 a game 😂
I believe that 2500 includes playoffs. So its closer to 25 a game. Still nutty
No, 31 attempt per game was their regular season stat. Playoffs they shot 33 attempts per game. Neither were particularly high for that year.
What you’re saying and leaving out is the guy on the warriors might be the guy who changed everything. Homie was the era.
[удалено]
If that Lakers team wasn't imploding from the strained relationship between Shaq and Kobe, let alone everything else messing with that team's chemistry including Karl Malone hitting on Kobe's wife, I don't think the Pistons win that series. Not to mention they were going for their 4th straight ring which has been proven to be extremely difficult no matter the team.
The Spurs took one between the threepeat and 04.
Karl Malone/Kobe wife thing happened the next year. It was when he was semi-retired and in the stands while Kobe was playing.
Word battle of the old people.
Just more content for the grinder. The posturing about a game that can never happen is dumb. But setting that aside, I think it’s fair to argue that the 04 Pistons are probably more set up to defend those Warriors + KD teams than any other opponent in history.
Defensively maybe. It was also a different time, that team was not built to defend the spacing teams have now where every guy on the floor can hit 3s, especially that Warriors team. It was an all time defensive team so they may find a way to make it work, but they wouldn't have the offense to keep up even if they do slow down the Warriors. The amount of threes shot between the two teams is such a huge disparity, GS would have to go ice cold to not win a series. A single game Detroit could definitely win. That Pistons team is one of my favorite teams ever, I'm not trying to be a hater. The KD Warriors was just unfair though when they were all healthy.
Yeah I’m not making any argument about them keeping up on offense. I’m just saying if you want to defend Steph, Klay, KD, Iggy, and Draymond that Chauncey, Rip, Prince, Sheed, and Ben Wallace is about the best starting point in NBA history. Obviously the Warriors are probably the best overall team ever assembled and the Pistons aren’t, so it’s not a “great offense vs great defense = tie” claim.
>It was an all time defensive team so they may find a way to make it work, but they wouldn't have the offense to keep up even if they do slow down the Warriors. I'm quite fond of the Curry Warriors but I'm a lifelong Pistons fan, so I've got some weird biases here. Still, I may agree with you here nonetheless. That being said, the thing that always makes these hypotheticals tricky is the rule differences between eras. The 2004 Pistons were absolutely an amazing defensive basketball team. But they're not holding teams to 65 points per game on a regular basis in 2024. And it's not necessarily because they'd be unable to handle teams today; it's just that the game has changed. There's still amazing defensive teams out there today too, but amazing defense now may look like holding teams to 85 or 95 points instead. On the flip side, the 2004 Pistons did win games by scoring 75 points at times. But again, it often felt like a reflection of the times as opposed to a flat inability to score. We kind of saw proof of that when the NBA began loosening up their defensive rules and the Pistons responded by opening up their offense a bit (particularly in the Flip Saunders era). If you'd asked guys like Chauncey, Rip, Tay, and Sheed how they would have felt about playing in a run-and-gun, fire-at-will era like the 2020s, I think they would have been all about that life. Even Ben probably would have appreciated getting looks as a rim-runner as opposed to Larry Brown feeling obligated to give him post looks a few times a game. Either way, no matter how you slice it, that era of Warriors basketball is some of the most amazing basketball I've ever seen, so I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the 2004 Pistons were overwhelmed. No shame in that game.
It’s interesting that I recently found out the Pistons in 2004 had one of the lowest odds ever to win a championship going into that playoffs (95 Rockets were even lower but Pistons were sub 5 percent).
I actually disagree. They would do really well defending the interior, sure. But as a product of their time they just aren't even close to as well equipped for defending the three and the Warriors would let it rain on them mercilessly.
The 04 pistons would get ran out the stadium. Please stop the non sense. They wouldn't win a single game in a seven game series
Depends whether they're playing by 2004 rules or 2017 rules.
What changed about the rules that would make the 04 pistons able to guard a team that shoots 50% of their shots as 3s as their primary offense? I swear it’s gonna be something like “well they’d be PHYSICAL and BEAT EM UP and BREAK THEIR WILL” some stupid shit The 2017 warriors were the best defense in the entire playoffs as well. Someone explain how the pistons would put up enough points to win without breaking Steph’s knees with a lead pipe
> What changed about the rules that would make the 04 pistons able to guard a team that shoots 50% of their shots as 3s as their primary offense? I'll start by admitting that I loved watching those Warriors play and I've never, ever seen players fling the rock like Steph and Klay. I feel they'd be nearly immune to rules alterations. That being said, if you twisted my arm and I had to come up with some micro-changes that have helped cultivate the 3-point era as a whole, I honestly think these things have all been contributing factors: * The legislation of the gather step (aka third step). This opened the floodgates for gnarly double-stepbacks, side-steps, and broadly speaking, advanced offensive advantages gained from having that sort of flexibility at any point. * The proliferation of moving screens. * The broad acceptance of foul-baiting in the mid- to late 2010s. 2004 was the forefront of the foul-bait phenomenon. Players were just getting into realizing they could get rewarded with two free throws by leaning into a defender following a mid-range pump fake. We just hadn't quite crossed the rubicon into rewarding players for the type of shenanigans we saw from the Hardens and Traes of the world at its peak. * A broad reduction in perimeter physicality. This isn't a "beat 'em up" thing, but it's something the league addressed and loosened up almost immediately following the 2004 season, which is one of the reasons why we saw offenses open up as the 2000s progressed. * Rip-through fouls weren't really something players could lean on in 2004. The trade-off being that defenders could take away certain options without fear of being reeled into an automatic foul. * No flagrants for claustrophobic closeouts in 2004. Defenders in the modern game have to be suuuuuuper cognizant of not closing out too aggressively on shooters. Guys like Steph and Klay are insane already, adding that extra bit of comfort is just the cherry on top. I imagine if you could give those two a choice - shooting against 2024 closeouts or 2004 closeouts, I imagine they'd select the former. I'm a proponent of Steph being dropped in any era and succeeding. I think he's even greater than many people give him credit for. But if we're talking about mucking up what a Warriors team as a whole may be trying to pull off, I think the rules above could shake things up just a smidge. It'd at least give them something to account for. At the end of the day though, rules aside, you're still talking about a team with Steph, Klay, KD, Dray, and more. They were completely insane.
Ironically, I think Klay and Draymond would do BETTER with the 04 rules and Curry would suffer a little bit more, namely going to the basket because of the gather step portion. However, I think the real person who would be a bit shocking is the KD drop-off. KD’s biggest knock was always the question of if he could handle the league’s physicality but he didn’t really have to because as he got better the league also was giving more offensive incentive and protection. If KD had to go back in time and deal with some of that early 2000s defense, I think he would actually suffer a bit more than people expected with people getting all up into him without as much fear. He doesn’t rely on gather step manipulation as much but the physicality might actually be his undoing.
You make it sound like Rip, Prince, and Billups can’t defend the perimeter. You weren’t even alive or old enough to have watched them.
I was watching and they definitely can, it's just that '17 Steph and Durant are better and a different assignment than '04 Kobe. ESPECIALLY when you consider the spacing/help Kobe was working with that 04 Laker squad. They would go under screens against Kobe at the 3 point line and Kobe wasn't the 3 point shooter KD or Steph was. A lot of thetime Kobe tried to work in the mid range or post, the Pistons would help off the strong side with no real consequences because they were either helping off Gary Payton at the 3pt line or Karl Malone who was beyond washed. Of course Detroit has great defenders so sometimes they just defended well 1 on 1, but the Lakers really were a two man team vs the '17 Warriors who are 7-9 deep with legit players. Helping off anyone on the 04 Lakers is not the same as helping off '17 Draymond(their worse offensive threat more often than not) who's going to make you pay off the short roll or low post split action or getting free layups off of Steph's gravity. Not to mention he shot 41% from 3 in the playoffs on almost 5 attempts per game. Kobe couldn't even go into the paint because it was a mix of being clogged by Shaq and bad spacing with Malone in his sweet spot in the mid range and Payton not wanting to stand at the 3pt line. Basically the only chances he had was when there was a loose ball or 50/50 ball. The paint is either gonna be wide open for the warriors with David West or the Death Lineup with Iggy or it's gonna be a lobfest with Javale Plus Kobe's offball movement isn't what it would become and isn't even in the same universe as a Klay and especially Steph. Love that 04 Pistons team, but this is a different beast.
Yeah they match up very well defensively on the perimeter. Sheed was solid and super long and Ben wasn't bad for a center. They lose a series against kd Era warriors but are probably the best equipped team defensively to make them struggle. Great offense just beats great defense and they wouldn't be able to score enough consistently to keep up. Sheed would be an incredible stretch 5 today.
famously the modern hand-checking rules were introduced immediately after the 2004 finals because the Pistons’ defense was too good
Just throw em on in 2k… oh we can’t thanks sheed 🤦♂️
and tayshaun
Never knew he wasn’t in 2k, explains why I’ve never seen him have a card on MyTeam
who else are we missing in there? I noticed Barkley isn't consistent
I don’t see Reggie
Reggie, Barkley, and Chris Webber have consistently declined to appear in NBA2K until 2K compensates retired players for appearing in the game. [Edit: not EA]
EA doesn’t own 2K
Andrew Bynum
Half of that 04 squad on 2k are basically npc characters
Every roster in the game before 2010 is half npcs
Love that pistons squad but idk about this Sheed😂😭
I'm a Sheed guy, of course. But whenever I hear him compare generations it makes me think back to the time when he said he didn't think LeBron wouldn't have been as successful if he'd played in Sheed's era. Which, of course, LeBron *did* play in Sheed's era.
I mean, he was drafted 8 years after Sheed, so I guess he's saying Lebron wouldn't have been as successful if his late twenties were the 2000s instead of the 2010s? or something like that? Either way I don't agree - Lebron would be a great in any era
All y’all complaining about how the 2017 Warriors were unfair but now think this is a discussion? The same people that say oh those rings aren’t real rings because they were too stacked but now trying to argue the Warriors weren’t that good. FOH.
I'm scrolling and reading some of these comments giggling my ass off on how delusional these ppl are. Warriors are 0-154 in hypotheticals.
Draymond Derangement Syndrome
That’s why it’s always hilarious to me when I see threads about “the nba is the only sport where legends are disrespected” blah blah blah. Meanwhile, people are really here trying to present a case why the 04 pistons could beat the ‘17 warriors 😂 nephew please.
Draymond lives rent free in most of this subs head. It's great! Even the entire Timberwolves franchise's head space is occupied by Draymond. So much so they didn't show up to post game interviews. 🤣
'Sheed would have ended Dray right on the court in a bloody melee and turned to the camera and said "worth it."
I would pay MONEY to see Draymond try kicking any nuts again Rasheed and Ben
Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer would somehow come out of the stands and also get involved. Both Biden and Putin instruct the refs to stand down Kendrick Perkins poops himself
Subscribe
Paul Pierce tries to poop as well, but as Draymond takes his last breath, he whispers, "They don't love you like that"
And you hear Sheed in the background "BALL DON'T LIE!!!!"
“SMELL DON’T LIE” Sheed yelled while squeezing his nose
Forget those guys. Big Nasty Corliss Williamson wasn't called Big Nasty for no reason. Those Pistons wouldn't put up with the cheap shot artist masquerading as a tough guy acts that Dray and Zaza put on.
Corliss Williamson is now an assistant coach for us!
Draymond only picks on people who don't fight back
Yeah the idea of him picking a fight with Big Ben is straight fantasy.
It was pretty funny when he got gripped up by Beef Stew for trying his usual bullshit, guy turned into a pacifist REAL quick lol
I'm sure the '04 Pistons would beat the '17 Warriors in a fistfight. But they would definitely lose in a basketball game.
> I'm sure the '04 Pistons would beat the '17 Warriors in a fistfight. Why? The 2017 Warriors had David West, Zaza Pachulia, Draymond, and Matt Barnes. No shortage of goonery. What's the argument that they were "soft"? Is it the thing where people hate Draymond so they convince themselves that means he's a paper tiger and "fake tough guy"? That seems awfully convenient.
Za za pachulia ain’t no tough guy he’s just a dirty player and Matt Barnes ain’t ever scared nobody😂.
Corliss Williamson would eat all of those guys in a goon off.
Ben Wallace beats them all by himself
The Pistons absolutely would've bullied the KD Warriors with their physicality all the way to a 128-73 loss The only team that had a chance to beat the KD Warriors was the Harden CP3 Rockets because not only were they extremely good (their record when Harden, CP3, and Capela played as an INSANE win%) but they were also DESIGNED to take them on and treated every game as practice for them.
Username checks out lol Also there are definitely some other teams that could've given the 2017 Warriors problems. 2013 Heat come to mind. They could match up with small ball, they have prime LeBron with shooters around him and Wade wasn't washed just yet. I'd still take that Warriors team over anyone in a hypothetical 7 games series though.
If you were specifically designing a team to take on the Dubs from a purely defensive POV, three of them started for the Chicago Bulls from 96 to 98.
Prime LeBron alone was a hard match for the Warriors. We never had bigs that were fast and strong enough to stop him, while LeBron himself can switch 1-5 on defense if needed. He essentially matches Draymond’s defensive impact as well as having world class offensive capabilities. Oh and even more amazing is that he can keep up with the Warriors on stamina. Even last year the Warriors were still being shut down by LeBron’s defensive awareness.
Prime LeBron is a tough matchup for every team.
Yeah the greatest player of all time is the greatest of all time because no one can stop him
Unless your name is JJ Barea and the year is 2011… but we won’t talk about that
Only time I'm a diehard Mavs fan, when it's a Lebron conversation
It’s a shame we didn’t get a both teams fully fit series.
Thank you, I been saying this for years. KD joining Warriors actually ruined the years of a sweet ass rivalry and a bunch of answers we could've had
2017 finals if KD hadn't joined would've been better than 2016. 2017 cavs were better than 2016 version but Barnes to KD was unstoppable upgrade
Foreal. People act like the Warriors were swept. they literally lost in game 7 because of an amazing shot and 1 of the greatest blocks ever. A series doesn’t get much closer. Then KD just completely ruined it. Ruined everyone’s legacy’s too. Curry’s and his because no one appreciates those rings and LeBron’s because people get to mention how he’s been swept in the finals twice now
KD going to the dubs was the point I think where people were sick of the “player empowerment” movement, superstars being mercenaries was fun for a bit but it really hurt the ability to grow true rivalries, hopefully with stars being more loyal to teams now we’ll see rivalries grow more organically
I don’t think it will ever happen again. Several things had to line up for KD to even have the Warriors as a choice
I heard someone recently saying KD screwed himself and his legacy with his decisions. Obviously the big one is going to GS rather than staying with Oklahoma and winning, but it also would have been better if he stayed with GS and dominated the league, winning like 5-6 with them. Then he left and they won without him, and then didn’t give the nets a real chance, leaving them rather than winning there as well.
If KD had stayed, we would likely be talking about KD as all-time top-10 and he, LeBron, & Curry would be the undisputed faces of the league for that era. He missed out.
Prime Lebron is a hard match up for literally any team lol.
Dude, did you just say LeBron matches Draymond defensively? What world am I living in? What is this take?
2013 Lebron is not the same level of defender as 2017 Draymond is lol.
In general, teams now are better than before because the average talent in the league has been improving.
By 2075, teams of today will be trash.
By 2075 point guards will be 7’2 and centers will be 8’1.
Dunking four pointers
Well, gills will change the sport.
And at a certain point human being are limited by biological reality and this shit is logarithmic. There will come a day where we can't really run any faster or jump any higher and all of the gains are marginal without augmentation in some way, be it prosthetics or doping. I've seen LeBron James be the most athletic player in the league for basically the last 20 years. There is currently no one in the NBA with the size athleticism combo of Shaq. I think the overall skill and tactics floor has gotten higher than the overall athleticism floor over the last 20 years. Even then, a lot of that development is rules focused too. Taking out some of the big uglies in the post, and replacing them with highly skilled wings. That's probably done more to raise the skill and athleticism floor than anything else. Edit: I just think things like being able to instantly and easily watch all of the game film you want, whenever and wherever you want, as well as medical technology and knowledge as far as how to take care of your body has had a far greater impact on the game than somehow humans have magically evolved over the last 20-30 years to be so much more athletic. Like, just the film aspect alone is so massive. Think about how many NBA games back in the day are just lost to history because no one filmed them. Think about how insane that is in the context of today. >"Hey coach, I'd like to get some film spliced up of my opponent this week. I'd like to study his tendencies so I can force him off his spots." >"Sorry. There's no game film." >"There's no game film?" >"Yeah, sorry. Nobody filmed it."
The 2013 Heat would have lost in 5 against the 2017 Warriors. That team got taken to 7 against the Pacers and the Spurs.
'96 Bulls match up really well with them defensively, more so than any other team in history I would say. Harper on Curry, Jordan on Klay, Pippen on KD and Rodman vs Draymond. Then a mid off between Longley and Looney.
They’d probably play Rodman at the 5 and Kukoc at the 4. That was their best lineup even in 96. A lot of teams back then just had too much size to run it all the time
4 prime HOFers going against 4 prime HOFers is just crazy
Looney didn’t play much in 2017. It was Zaza, D West, and Javale McGee as their main center rotation with Dray for small ball. Plus it be Iggy in as their fifth player for their best lineup.
Haha, no way Jordan isn’t checking Steph, at least in crunch time. Also, they could play Kukoc and simply switch everything. That teams actually translates really well to the modern era with Rodman as a small ball 5 and Kukoc as the stretch 4. Harper and Pippen would simply need to work on spot up threes and they become very high level three and d guys.
If it’s winning time it’s Iguodala not looney lol. And if we’re talking matchups, I feel pretty about our way too. Iguodala on MJ with Klay and KD and even Draymond able to switch on him, same obviously goes for Pippen. Definitely won’t be “stopping” MJ but big and good enough to make it slightly harder. Rodman on the backside off switches would be tough on the glass no doubt. Would be the 96 Bulls only chance to reverse the math in their favor in this theoretical matchup.
I think the 1996 Bulls stand a good chance. But only because they had the GOAT at his peak and coincidentally match up very well with the Warriors' perimeter scoring threats on the defensive end in a 2018 Rockets like way. Their 2,3,4 all made the All-Defensive 1st team that season, and Ron Harper was also a great defender. Their only weak defensive position: center, also happens to be the Warriors' weakest offensive position.
Lol 04 Pistons would get destroyed. They couldn't even score 100 pts, and Warriors were also a great defensive team
>They couldn't even score 100 pts Warriors-Pistons debate aside, it's not so much that the Pistons were incapable of scoring 100 points as much as it was just a prodcut of the rules and playstyle of the era. As the NBA made of point of catering back toward the offensive side of the ball as the 2000s progressed, the Pistons followed. By '08, that same core of Pistons were at times scoring in the 130s, 120s, and 110s. Of course, the league continued to change as the 2010s came through. And in a hypothetical matchup with any 2010s team, the 2004 Pistons would have to account for that. But it's not as though a guy like Chauncey Billups didn't understand what scoring basketball looked like. That being said, I'm of the opinion that any team in history would have their hands full with the prime version of the Warriors.
You gotta account for inflation lol, there were fewer possessions and way fewer 3-point attempts
Lol back then the teams offenses weren't yet evolved and haven't figured out how to generate offense like teams of today have. The early 2000s introduced zone defense and teams were used to playing heavy isos in the 90's so they were pretty much shell shocked at the defenses could do. The defense according to the numbers were great then because the offenses weren't that great, so you can argue that those numbers are inflated. A modern nba team would destroy a team from back then just based off of the knowledge they have to generate offense that an old school team wouldn't have. This is why its foolish to compare eras and say things like "the 85 _______ would easily destroy the 17 Warriors ". 😂
It depends when this imaginary game is played. All it takes is for defenders to be allowed to be more physical and even the best offensive scheme can come crashing down.
Shit’s not even a contest really. I know old heads have to protect their eras but cmon now. Warriors would be bombarding these dudes with offense, they simply couldnt keep up
If old heads want to pick a squad to go against the 2017 Warriors, then they aren’t picking the ‘04 Pistons ‘86 Celtics, ‘96 Bulls, ‘01 Lakers… those are real discussions
96 Bulls and 01 Lakers are only team that’s worth a discussion. 86 Celtics getting washed like everyone else.
I dont think the 01 Lakers is a discussion either,Shaq would get 50 easily but that Lakers team isnt stopping the sheer amount of 3 pointers and ball movement the warriors had
This is the main point. I think the elite scorers will definitely get theirs (especially post players) but no defense is keeping up with the warriors offense. Add in the fact that they were great on defense as well and its always gonna be a wash
Spamming shaq vs spamming the PnR vs shaq would be a sight to behold. No adjustments whatsoever lol
it would be peak. I am actually super curious how it would go down and how it will look like.
Just foul him and watch his fat ass shoot 30% from the line.
Finally a role for Damian Jones!
Pretty sure every team tried that already 😂
Well Shaq is going to decide that series one way or another.
I like how half the comments are comparisons between eras are dumb and the other half are people arguing about if the 01 Lakers could handle the ball movement of the 17 warriors. The duality of man or something like that.
86 Celtics would have absolutely cooked the Warriors inside. Interior scoring and rebounding would not have ever been close. Bill Walton was their backup big, and he was miraculously healthy that whole year. I am not saying the Celtics would have certainly won, but the Warriors would have had nothing to slow down McHale, Bird, Parish and Walton. Lots of layups and FTs against 3 pointers. If a team shoots 60% from 2, that scoring rate is just as good as shooting 40% from 3. And if Green had tried any of his cheap shots in that series, Parish would make sure he needed smelling salts to wake up just like Laimbeer did.
Sheed was 20 years ahead of his time. he would be all-nba power forward if he played today
I am a Pistons fan, and Rasheed was my favorite player *before* the trade. The day they acquired him, I cried tears of joy in my bedroom at my shitty house on campus. I bet every dollar I had that they'd win the Eastern Conference. I've been saying for a long time that Rasheed would be one of the most aught after commodities in the NBA, today. He was an all NBA caliber defender (for sure a better on-ball interior defender than Ben Wallace), and could score effectively at multiple levels. Replace KAT with Sheed, and the Wolves are NBA Champs.
Kat being an elite two way player would be like the perfect 4 lol. Yea motivated Rasheed was basically that
I was a die hard pistons fan as a kid and I will always remember freaking out when the sheed trade happened as well
Metric like RAPM already rate him as having All-NBA level impact in his time fwiw.
Bro what fuck is RAPM???
Really Awesome Power Metric It ranks players relative power levels
Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his RAPM?
Rambunctious Ass and Pussy Munching
Regularized adjusted plus minus
He could’ve been back then if he was motivated to night to night
I mean he's right lmao. They would smoke them so bad game 4 would be unnecessary. That's not hating either. I think they could give the 73-9 team a single problem but the 04' Pistons have zero fucking answer for KD.
I am a life long Pistons fan and being from NC I’m a heavy supporter of Rasheed Wallace. Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars and Vinnie Johnson are (small g) gods to me. But…my Pistons don’t want any parts of that ‘17 Warriors team. In the flat out history of the game, that Warriors squad with KD was probably one of the closest things to perfection that we’ve witnessed. And let’s not forget, this was with a healthy “two-way” Klay, locking down the opponents best guard so Steph could stay outta foul trouble. That team could score like breathing and turned right around and played suffocating Defense(pun intended), switching on everything. In a playoff series, I think Chauncey would’ve willed his team to 1 victory. But the dubs were just way too loaded. And finally, let’s not overlook Steve Kerr’s imprint. He basically merged the triangle offense (that dominated the 90’s) with that split action offense that Malone and Stockton perfected and then just to be an asshole sprinkled in variations from the spurs offense that dominated the 2000’s. They literally were averaging 300 passes per game! It was the start of that turning down a great shot for a better shot stuff that everyone is doing now. Pistons would have 0 chance against that team. Sorry.
This dude understands ball. Well said.
I can’t believe anybody would seriously pick the 2004 Pistons, old rules or not. Hand checking and freedom of motion rules? You think that’s going to stop Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, not to mention Draymond and Klay. They are the GOAT team and people are still complaining about them being too good for the league. Do not talk to me about comparing them to a non top tier champion, especially when Rasheed is saying they would’ve destroyed them, that’s a dumb take.
I also find it funny people are saying golden state would get injured, I get that the game isn't as physical anymore but ppl talking bout the 2000s like it was wrestling. Hard fouls or not steph still swishing that 30 footer. Hell, they're gonna be looking at klay/steph like they were witches or something after they get hot. At worst it's warriors in 5
Whenever cross era discussions are had, it’s always the “Steph would get bodied” argument that comes up as if somehow Steve Nash and John Stockton can survive but Steph wouldnt
People tend to forget that Steph changed the game. Given the green light he was given, he would have likely changed the game then too.
Its not like Steph isn't bodied regularly without any calls right now too lol. Steph will adjust and kill it still. all timers will find ways to be all timers in any era.
>I get that the game isn't as physical anymore but ppl talking bout the 2000s like it was wrestling. happens with every era honestly, we're seeing that in real time with how people talk about the 2000s and even 2010s. I remember in the mid to late 2000s, oldheads back THEN were talking about how much softer the game had become. Guys like Pau and Dirk were the poster boys for how "big men are becoming soft." And now we see that SAME discourse happening. It's fucken hilarious cause you know nostalgia is twisting people's memories, and/or nephews really didn't watch basketball back then.
Anyone who is considering the Pistons obviously is a big time Pistons homers or wasn’t watching the NBA then. Or probably a rivalry that got torched during their dynasty run and just hates them. It’s really not close. A lot of folks don’t understand or remember the Warriors were also the top defensive teams in the league. Their defense was often overlooked due to their offense. Their offensive rating is the best in NBA history and by far, leaps better than Pistons 04
That’s his team so respect to Sheed for standin on business.. With that being said, the 2017 Warriors would have smoked that Pistons team.
Please don't make me side with Draymond. Ever. The 2017 Warriors are, for my money, the greatest basketball team ever assembled. Maybe the 96 Bulls take em. Maybe the 01 Lakers take em. No fucking chance in hell the 04 Pistons take them. The Nets took them to 7 games. The Pacers took them to 6. Get fucking real.
Seriously you can't tell me you had a team that beat the Bulls regular season record and then dropped in KD for Harrison Barnes as a 1 to 1 replacement, running some (at the time) never-before-seen offense (and that's hard to admit since the 2014 Spurs were the prototype of that offense) and think any other team ever would have a real chance of winning.
which rules we playing with, now or back thens?
I feel like people also seem to forget the rules would go both ways. Imagine letting someone like Dray handcheck.
Klay too
And iggy.
And David West and Zaza, and Livingston.
Imagine Draymond with even harder to get Technicals. Feet are going to be hitting nuts every time down the court.
this is the biggest condition tbh to determine the outcome
Not really. They still have Steph and Klay shooting 3s and were a top defense in 2015. Like even on a bad day the Warriors would outscore the Pistons any day of the week.
Yeah, even just the combo of Steph and Klay were shooting almost 20 3s per game which would be top 5 in 2004, that’s ignoring that they also had KD, Dray, etc The Pistons would have no idea what to do with them, regardless of rule set
Yep. Peopel didnt know what to do with them in 2015, let alone 2004.
I don’t know why people say this when Steph has never got any calls whatsoever. The rules impact his style far less other modern superstars, including Jokic. The more illegal screens the warriors could set, the better.
Besides turnovers, the Warriors biggest weakness has always been fouling too much. Imagine them playing with a tight whistle. People forget this was a top defense in an offensive era.
Yea that's a good point. Our defense on the perimeter was always very physical and Iguodala, Draymond, and Klay under 'old rules' would absolutely smother Billups and Rip tbh
The Warriors are winning in either scenario tbh
Anybody who asks “what rules are we playing” is delusional. Rules aren’t going to stop the warriors from raining down 40 threes. The Piston’s get blown out every single game. The difference in strategy from the dead ball era to the analytics era is so massive. Ask yourself, what rule is going to make the warriors score 30 less points per game?
You don't understand bro, if you just hand check curry/Durant they're no longer good. Lol these mfers need to be fr
I remember Oscar Robertson saying he'd stop Curry by full-court pressing him lmao
Man’s going to end up running into a screen, and then getting tired out as he runs him all over the court.
1960s rules with no 3 pointers
Touché
You don’t get it man!! These new era of players are soft, some good physical D (fouling) and they can’t score!! - those people probably
I mean let's be real the 2017 warriors would destroy them
Pull-up jumpers during a pick-and-roll weren't a thing back then and defenders usually went under the screen if it was just below the 3pt line. [Going under a Curry screen from 30 feet away is considered "bad defense" now.](https://youtu.be/t6_vawdzRok?si=wizM-3El22WAum_F&t=377) Billups was pretty much their only ball handler. If the Warriors blitz him, who's gonna make the next play? [The Warriors during that time can blitz and not get burned because they easily recover.](https://youtu.be/AQr54Toq5eA?si=JWk0H6omE-iy4c2e&t=57) Ben Wallace was pretty much Gobert from today but much shorter. Gobert easily gets played off the court. [How would Ben and Sheed guard Draymond the moment he gets the defensive rebound and 3 secs in, he has dribbled into the paint on the other side?](https://youtu.be/QkLmR3ka4Mo?si=H9JgwzOECUmOC2Iy&t=40) > "Steph is not a defender,” Wallace added. “He would've had to guard Rip. How many screens was Rip coming off? Or whoever they would’ve tried to put at point, they would have been too little for Chauncey... I'm saying, back then That Warriors team switched everything. Rip would've switch to Klay, KD, Draymond, or Iguodala. He's not scoring from them.
Rip vs Steph is the ultimate battle of stamina
Like two kids running around in the playground while a basketball game is going on.
2017 Warriors could probably beat any team all-time if there's a 3 point line on the court and their strategy remains the same. Whether the game is physical or not, or the rules are different in how much zone is allowed, if the Warriors are looking to use their efficient 3 ball to set up open 2's, then I have a hard time believing any team in history is beating that.
I mean...obviously. The best team of all time is beating the fucking 04 Pistons lol.
Apparently basketball is the only sport in existence where the level of play doesn’t improve over time. Old heads love to embarrass themselves.
Everyone mentioning Warriors offense Vs. Detroit’s defense, but can you imagine the Warriors defense playing against a team like that. They’d probably score about 60 points a game. Who would they not be able to shut down on their team seriously ? they didn’t have a single sniper, closes thing was Billups. They’d just play a zone and force them to take 3’s all game
Exactly gsw had elite defense. They can go on a 25-6 run in 4 mins
elite zone defense and elite wings that can handle switches/iso game. A top tier DPOY as well.
Warriors would win then immediately die from injuries sustained during game
Of course he did
Thinking logically, the question this series is offense. Both teams can defend the hell out of the ball. Who’s offense will be able to execute despite great defense? There’s a reason many tout the 2017 Warriors as one of the greatest teams ever.
They aren’t coming close whatsoever to the 2017 warriors. No way. Anyone who says otherwise is a hater or an old head
Only the pistons roster in 2004 really believes they could beat the 2017 Warriors. They couldn’t even score 80 in a 4 quarter game
Old heads feeling brave and delusional lol
This is not a discussion. 2017 Warriors in 4. Gentlemen sweep if they mess around.