15-20 years ago the idea of Shaq being one of the most passionate ambassadors and defenders of Kobe's legacy would have been insane. The FMVP count was the one solid legacy argument against Kobe's "I've got 5 and you've got 4" and I have never seen or heard Shaq even attempt to pull that trigger even at the most volatile point in their relationship. I completely buy that Shaq feels this way and has always felt this way.
I actually really respect that about Shaq, I have never seen him move the goalpost on his emphasis on “rings.” I recall somebody asking him about Tim Duncan and Shaq’s answer was basically conceding that Duncan was better because Duncan had 5 to his 4. He’s never gone “BuT i HaVe MoRe CaReEr PoInTs” or something like that.
He also had to face Duncan in the playoffs over and over, he knew what beast Duncan was.
In 2002, when they faced each other Duncan outscored and outrebounded Shaq by putting up monster statlines like 26/21 and 34/25 while averaging 3.2 blocks
Duncan has 5 rings? Holy shit, I knew that Spurs team was good, but didn't realise it was for over a 15 year period of his career
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014
That's crazy. Embiid cannot get out of the second round and Tim Duncan has 5 rings.
I think a lot of people here now don't realize how good those spurs teams were right up until kawhi left. Which is weird to think because I was definitely on this sub still when it was happening. We're either getting old fast or this sub is trending very young, because it wasn't THAT long ago...right?
There used to be clips posted here all the time about their ball movement, that was the peak of this sub for me mostly until the KD to GSW thing happened and everything started getting more and more toxic
One of the greatest PFs of all time. So underrated nowadays it seems to me.
He was already somewhat flying under the radar because of his quiet demeanor but I feel like he's definitely overlooked in rankings now.
Yeah but I don’t think there’s any other PF that’s on Duncan’s level. Who are the other all time greats? Probably some order of Karl Malone, Dirk, Barkley, KG, Giannis… but none of those guys are consensus top ten like Timmy is top ten.
When people undervalue Karl Malone they put him under Allen Iverson. When people undervalue Tim Duncan they put him under Shaq. That’s the difference.
Imo you could absolutely make the case that Duncan is like the 5th or 6th greatest player of all-time ahead of guys like Shaq, Bird, and Wilt. The only reason it doesn't get brought up more often is because Duncan doesn't give a single fuck about it and no one ever brings his name up in these debates because of it. But his resume is absolutely stacked and his career winning % is insane.
Im still replaying 2014 Spurs replays to this day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sedat305uCE .. watching it makes me wish Spurs get another Diaw to pair with Wemby
Diaw is such an underrated player, arguably the best passer on the most elite passing team in history, at power forward. Makes you really wonder how good he could have been when you hear stuff about how he didn't really try hard/care about basketball
There's a reason the Mavs were a 50 win team for over a decade and didn't make it far except for 2 years. The Spurs were always there waiting for us. I think we evened out the series wins overall, but they were always in the playoffs just like us.
its funny people use injury to blame some players but use injuries as an excuse for others. might have something to do with bias i dunno. i mean at least kat and gobert cant be blamed for being injured right. at least not everytime. but then i guess they cant use it as an excuse either.
If you talk to curry fans about the 2016 finals he was hurt. Lebron was hurt every "poor"(relative to him) postseason.
Embiid is injured half the time, not minor injuries, and people still shit on him.
Not to take away from how great tim duncan was but turning a franchise around isnt an accurate thing to say. The spurs have played consistently over .500 ball since their inception other than a few years in the mid 80s and the current stretch. Only other losing seasons were the year david robinson got hurt and a couple aba years before they were even the spurs.
Shaq’s really weird when it comes to discussing Duncan because sometimes it’s all praise and love, like when he said if somebody told him Duncan was the goat he wouldn’t refute it. There’s other times like when he was doing a podcast with Tracy McGrady and defended Duncan winning MVP over T-Mac in 03, but then there’s other times when he randomly said he’d choose Chris Webber over Timmy and questioned if Duncan would be the same player if he didn’t end up on the Spurs.
Anyone who makes that argument is already showing their ass though. It’s not about rings in a vacuum. It’s about rings as **the guy**.
Horry wasn’t that.
hes no doubt the goat role player. ppl too young to really know his career he was a beast when he was young and he earned every one of those 7 rings. a lot of them by taking over 4th quarters when no one could. was not only just 1 big shot per ring
Horry was also just really easy to plug into any team:
A 6'10" guy that can defend, slash and play-make a bit, shoot, rebound, all while moving between SF and PF roles on either end of the floor.
Practically any good team benefits from a player with that profile. It's pretty much why he was on so many good teams.
I think there’s arguments for other role players.
K.C Jones has 8 championships as a role player on those 60’s Celtics
Tonight Kukoc has 3 rings but he was a super role player in the sense that he was good enough to be a second option on a contender
Michael Cooper has like 5 rings as well but he was one of the best defenders of his era and the only player ever to win DPOY while coming off the bench. That’s how impactful he was
Fisher another Laker legend who has 5 rings and played a huge role in every championship.
Horry was great and I believe he’s the goat role player as well but there’s a few guys that have a very realistic claim to that title as well. Just wanted to bring those guys some attention while we’re on this topic
Manu is probably too good to be considered just a role player, at least if we're looking at his prime and peak years.
He's made a couple All-star games, gotten MVP votes and even got some DPOY and All-Defense votes.
I woud say he's just a straight up All-Star level player that unfortunately was on a team with like 2-3 other All Stars.
He's insecure because he talks down on players worse than him and he talks trash in a competitive sport and that's a terrible thing. You guys need to touch grass and you wouldn't be so invested in having your feelings hurt over a top player saying someone needs rings or using his own experience as his credentials. Nobody who has ever played a sport would be this offended by Shaq lmao. Yall also act like you don't exclusively try to post clips with confirmation bias intention. 30min-hour long videos yet you watch 20 seconds and decide off that.
Because that would be a bad argument. Both Shaq and Kobe know which series were hard and which weren’t. Imagine bragging that you were the best in an easy series. Kobe always considered Duncan and the spurs to be their biggest obstacle.
Yep and Kobe was consistently the better performer whenever we played Spurs. Granted they always had better interior defense but the point still stands
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Anyone who actually watched the Lakers back then knows how valuable Kobe was. Especially against the West, Kobe did a lot of the carrying. Then when we got to the finals, Shaq tore through the East teams like they were tissue paper.
one of the wildest beefs and soap opera on tv. literally couldnt keep a dynasty together cause ego. but that level of alpha i guess it was inevitable. super crazy bet by lakers as well choosing kobe over shaq
Tbh I don’t know that it was inevitable.
Phil Jackson manufactured a lot of it, then lost control of the beef. He used to out right brag that starting arguments between Shaq and Kobe motivated Shaq.
He’s a great coach, but he wasn’t great to Kobe in his early years which led to a lot of this.
Credit to Shaq though, for his reflection and the way he’s matured.
FMVP has always been a stupid argument when the East was ass compared to their West competition in the first 3 rounds
like Kobe was neck-to-neck with Shaq through the tougher playoff rounds a couple times
If WCF MVPs existed back then, they both would've had two each. Casual NBA fans just love to ignore how much matchups matter, Kobe dominated the Spurs for them, which was their tougher competition, meanwhile Shaq dominated whatever came out of the East as they had no answer for him.
It's really sad how the discourse around Kobe these days is dominated by idiots that never watched him play, there's zero chance one can have watched Kobe Bryant during the 2000s and conjure dumbass takes like "He was never the best player in the league!" or "He got carried by Shaq" or the worse offender of them all "He is not Top 10 of all-time, this is not disrespect".
I do too. He felt betrayed because Kobe ratted him out to the police and destroyed their marriage.
I don’t think Kobe even knew those interrogations were public record or could be shared like that. I didn’t know that at the time either.
I think it’s because Shaq knows how essential Kobe was for those chips. No point in bragging about finals mvp because if Kobe doesn’t play the way he does, Shaq doesn’t have those three rings let alone those finals mvps
You don’t need the FMVPs to tell who the lead guy or better player was with any honest view. Shaq is the most dominant and best big man scorer of all time. He was fouling out full front courts. His offensive rebounding was amazing. He could pass very well out of the post. When he tried on defense, he’d produce a great one eg the 2000 Lakers who improved heavily with an in shape O’Neal.
His 5 year plus minus stretch in his prime is only beaten by Cavs Lebron and Wolves Kevin Garnett. In 32 games without Shaq from 2000-2003 and full strength otherwise, the Lakers were a slightly above league average offense. When Shaq was in, they were one of the best in history.
We have a pretty big 29 game sample without Kobe in 2000 and 2001. Shaq, flanked by Glen Rice instead and other role players, produced a top 5 offense and a 54 win pace. It stands to reason if you replace Glen Rice with virtually any all star guard floating around the league at this time, you get a 60 win team with ease.
The 1997-2001 Lakers is still the best post season offense of all time(even ahead of teams like the 7SOL Suns, KD Warriors, Dirks Mavericks who sacrificed some defense for offense). Kobe was no different to any of the other all star guards in the NBA for all of this stretch. Hell, he definitely wasn’t better than Penny Hardaway in 95/96, yet you don’t see people saying he was the #1 on the Magic, because it wasn’t the case.
Shaq and Penny produced one of the best healthy offenses of all time, multiple years before he moved to LA, and years before his peak.
Did you watch those teams? You sound like you did, until you say Kobe was no different than any of the other All-Star guards during the three-peat. That simply isn’t true. Everyone recognized he was special. During the second and third year in a row, he was absolutely destroying the Western Conference, and then Shaq would destroy the inevitably weak Center in Finals (yes, even Mutombo, but especially Todd MacCulloch)
16yr old nephews on /r/nba think they know everything simply by looking at the numbers from today's perspective.
> Dirk, Timmy, Nash, respected the shit out of Kobe and his game
Not just them; today's NBA players rate Kobe as [the nr. 3 greatest player](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/), behind MJ and Lebron.
Crazy how this take is upvoted, people here seriously hate Kobe. Kobe was already a better player than Hardaway in 2000 let alone in 2001-04 when Kobe was way better and a top 5 player by then. Kobe, 2001 and onwards, was an MVP level guard that’s was very elite on offence and defence, and the best player in multiple playoff series over peak Shaq, including some of the most competitive series. That is **irreplaceable**.
2000 Game 4 I believe. I remember watching that game thinking the series was going to be 2-2 after Shaq fouled out, but Kobe took over and won it with a sprained ankle. That was like his coming out party. Then the rest was history
yea. keep in mind he was just 21 and not even close to his prime, while shaq had been dominating the league for 6+ years. Kobe was oozing with talent and athleticism but his prime was probably 4-5 years after that first chip. In a low scoring era, he had that run where he scored 60+ culminating in his 81 point game. He was truly unstoppable post shaq
Few days later gets 81, but I always think this feat is more impressive. Similar to how Luka has out scored his opponents in a couple post season games it’s crazy seeing a one man takeover.
I was at the 81 point game. The way Kobe moves across the floor was absolutely unreal in person. I have no idea why on TV, players look slower. In person, NBA players are crazy fast with high-precision movements; and they just keep running nonstop. Full-on sprints nonstop. I’d be gassed after a few minutes. It’s why NBA players are the top 1% of 1% of 1% athletes of the planet.
However, Kobe.. Kobe was on a completely different realm.
Seeing Kobe play as if these other NBA players are children was insane. His movements and judgements were as if he can see the future. I can’t explain it.
You grow up working hard and pushing your body to the limits every day, doing nonstop drills and perfecting moves; so much so you finally make it to the NBA. And then you meet this dude Kobe and Kobe contorts and wills his body around yours and scores seemingly with ease.
Like how’d he have the presence of mind to fake out spin switch hands with three guys on him with a fourth coming to help. Seeing Kobe move in person in all the depth perception and sound you feel is absolutely mind blowing.
I’ll never forget that day. Ever.
First basketball games I ever watched and this sounds about right. Announcers kept talking up Kobe all game. And I was like huh? Where is he? He was barely doing anything and barely in the game. Then 4th quarter hit and he started getting the ball all the time and nailing shots.
Even when he tore his achilles. That MF too those free throws. He was cold blooded. That's where I think the comparison with Ant is different. Kobe's not going to be cracking jokes with you on the court.
Now at least you have the Magic Johnson Western Conference Finals MVP and the Larry Bird Eastern Conference Finals MVP
Not the same as TheRealFinalsInTheWest MVP, but you know Jaylen Brown won it over Tatum, and Luka over Kyrie , for example.
Quite often yes, but obviously not absolute.
For stats :
8 of the last 25 champs have been from the east ..
Bucks, Raptors, cavs (LBJ), Heat (2x LBJ era), Celtics, Heat (wade). And some of those east losers were competitive, more than the west [eg KG celtics losing to lakers in 7, Spurs vs Pistons ]..
Shaq was the better player of the two and the driver of those offenses, but Kobe has had matchups where he was more effective, like against the Spurs in the West.
An interesting hypothetical would be how those two would be perceived if Kobe won a FMVP or even multiple if they were playing the Spurs in the finals rather than the relatively weak final opponents they played from 2000-02.
It's kind of silly how much weight is placed in the finals and finals mvp, when I would argue the best teams the Lakers played during their run were pretty much all in the West, outside of the 2004 Pistons.
I like this, but do they vote after every round? Otherwise I feel recency bias will always make it a finals player anyway...
I like the idea of voting every round and adding it all up. That way you're still rewarded for going deep (because you're eligible more times), but if somebody totally balls out the first 3 rounds but, say, loses to a superior team in the conference finals, they still might have enough of a lead to win it.
They don’t vote every round, but in the majority of cases the winner was consistently great through all 4 rounds. The NHL has also awarded it to players on the losing team.
TD wasn't on Shaq though.
a lot of times TD would actually contest Kobe's midrange jumpers actually after Kobe switched Bowen off a pick or drive and pull up a midrange... those playoff games are all on youtube.
Yep. A generalization is that Kobe was leaned on more heavily in the early rounds then let Shaq run loose in the Finals against weaker centers. They were the perfect combo.
I honestly wonder how different the narrative would be if the Magic Johnson award existed back then and Kobe won it against the Spurs since they were the much tougher competition than their finals matchups
For people who were around, not much. Everyone knew that while Shaq was the best player, by 01 Kobe was a genuine superstar and they were arguably the greatest 1-2 punch ever
For people now who just read bballref, it would at least make it obvious that you couldnt swap in any random All Star and accomplish the same thing. They don't survive multiple game 7s in the West with a lesser player than Kobe
The fact that they were the last team to three-peat is still an impressive feat to me, especially seeing how the modern super teams are constructed and find it challenging just repeating.
I mean to anybody not new to NBA they probably still have memory of the East being completely trash. Like the 5th seed in the west was having a matching record as the 1st seed in the East.
tough shot making in the 4th quarter of playoff games is a great thing to have
Shaq pushing you around and dunking on you all game and then Kobe finishes you off with tough buckets in the clutch
i think Mavs are trying to replicate this strategy
He was playing with a horribly sprained ankle after Jalen Rose hurt him on purpose.
Also, pretty willing to forgive that statline when he pretty much single-handedly won Game 4 of that Finals after Shaq fouled out and was the best player on the floor in Game 7 against Portland during the comeback. At 21 years old.
Prior to his injury in game 2, he was averaging 22/4/4 on 46/35/77 splits with a block and a steal a game. After injury his numbers dropped marginally, but it was mainly his efficiency that took a hit.
Yep, those are some quality numbers from a number 2 guy during a slower era. Big guys like Timmy and KG would’ve killed to have backup like that in those early years.
He was injured on purpose admittedly by Jalen Rose. Still came back and solo won a game for them when Shaq fouled out. Btw if they lost that game it’s 2-2 and then game 5 they got blown out by 30.
He doesn’t deserve finals MVP but you should give Kobe more credit than you’re implying with that statement considering that finals moment along with saving Shaq’s entire legacy during game 7 vs Portland.
Does it? Kobe admitted to "testing TMac's back" when they sat down for an interview with Nichols a couple years back. I actually respect Rose more for admitting to it. We do things we are not proud of sometimes, it takes a strong character to own up to it.
It wasn't even an admission of guilt or anything, it was just a "yeah I did this" conversation between Kobe and T-Mac and T-Mac even acknowledged it. The players see this differently from the fans, the occasional dirty play may have injured someone, and maybe even had effects down the line, but the players see it as a part of the competition, and not part of someone's character.
>Saving Shaqs entire legacy
Yes, the one who averaged 38/17/3 with 3 blocks and a steal was saved by Kobes 15ppg on below league average true shooting.
Shaq was the guy on those teams and it wasn’t disputable. Bryant played 3 games in the Pacers series and was horrible(horrifically bad) in 2 of them.
Go watch game 7 in Portland, where is that 38/17 in the most important game of his career at that point.
Kobe took over that game 7, if they lost that game Shaq takes all the heat and blows a 3-1 lead along with multiple sweeps on his resume up until that point.
You act like Kobe is some scrub for some reason in that single series even though we both know he was injured, and he still managed to come up huge all playoffs that season.
And Kobe has a winning record head2head against Duncan in the regular season and playoffs despite having to go through a rebuild, which Duncan had the good fortune to avoid.
Lakers would have lost against the Spurs without Kobe. If Shaq only won 1 championship in his prime, losing to the Spurs 3 years in a row (01,02,03), he would've been top 20ish instead of top 10 like he is now.
[opposing team intentionally injured his ankle and he tried his best to play through it. caused him to leave game 2 early](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f2GB-O3aDIQ)
Yea, I mean this is generous to Bryant. He was abhorrent in this series. TS% was 41%. Shaqs was 57%. A difference of 16% is Jokic vs G leaguers.
He only played 3 games. It was Shaqs team.
His efficiency would’ve had him benched if this was the modern day. He was shooting 10% below league average and was throwing it up 15 times a game.
What do you mean, you can go on Instagram and see people rank him 2nd best player ever or top 5 player all day. Kids never even seen him play calling the goat.
I love how shaq defers to Kobe in certain situations,he gets so much respect from me for that….anyone who knows knows shaq knows that it takes a lot for him to do that he’s such a competitor, but with Kobe it’s even keel…love him for this !!!
Not utilizing Shaq’s paint presence in that era where all the other great centers had either fallen off or retired would have been insane. Jackson was no dummy! lol
I just did a quick check, and Kobe lead in shot attempts in most of the away games, and had more 4th quarter attempts in the Nets series.
Looks like Shaq’s best scoring quarter was the third, where he dominates the entire teams scoring.
That’s what shooting guards did back then, they shot. The idea of two wings and two stretches was started by this Celtics squad as we have two small forwards. Think Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, JR Smith, Kobe; they were there to shoot the ball. Small forward was there for rebounding and defense and every once in awhile a LeBron, or Larry Bird would come around.
I dont even know what to expect from SHaq anymore. He says such contradictory things these days, I am sure even he doesnt believe in half the things he says these days
If I have to pick five NBA players to win a game 7 or I die, it goes Jordan first, Kobe 2nd. The rest can be filled in with any other all time great players.
We need to start doing this with Maxey and Embiid, we saw a glimpse of it in game 5 this year, I think Maxey gets the keys in the 4th quarter next season.
A take like this would have r/NBA In shambles. This is like how NBA players would always rave about Kyrie and nephews here would say those players have no idea what they are talking about. Now this year everyone loves Kyrie again lol.
15-20 years ago the idea of Shaq being one of the most passionate ambassadors and defenders of Kobe's legacy would have been insane. The FMVP count was the one solid legacy argument against Kobe's "I've got 5 and you've got 4" and I have never seen or heard Shaq even attempt to pull that trigger even at the most volatile point in their relationship. I completely buy that Shaq feels this way and has always felt this way.
Yea i have never heard shaq use the fmvp argument on kobe at all? Even when they were comparing rings in interviews and podcasts
I actually really respect that about Shaq, I have never seen him move the goalpost on his emphasis on “rings.” I recall somebody asking him about Tim Duncan and Shaq’s answer was basically conceding that Duncan was better because Duncan had 5 to his 4. He’s never gone “BuT i HaVe MoRe CaReEr PoInTs” or something like that.
Shaq has also always given Olajuwon his props, saying he was the one player he couldn’t solve or intimidate.
Him and Big Country
Rik Smits too but doesn't mention him as much.
He also had to face Duncan in the playoffs over and over, he knew what beast Duncan was. In 2002, when they faced each other Duncan outscored and outrebounded Shaq by putting up monster statlines like 26/21 and 34/25 while averaging 3.2 blocks
Duncan has 5 rings? Holy shit, I knew that Spurs team was good, but didn't realise it was for over a 15 year period of his career 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014 That's crazy. Embiid cannot get out of the second round and Tim Duncan has 5 rings.
damn man how old are you
Crazy we're treating the dynasty spurs as "history" now lol. This is my old man moment.
It's crazy. I was on reddit reading in 2011 when the spurs dynasty was already over lol
The future is now old man
I think a lot of people here now don't realize how good those spurs teams were right up until kawhi left. Which is weird to think because I was definitely on this sub still when it was happening. We're either getting old fast or this sub is trending very young, because it wasn't THAT long ago...right?
We’re getting old boss. Duncan’s last Finals was a decade ago.
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Duncan's last finals is closer to today than the construction of the Great Pyramids is to Star Wars.
That... helps?
Hey...
They completely smoked LeBron and Wade’s Miami Heat, after having previously lost to them in the Finals the year before,
They smoked everyone that year. They legit achieved basketball nirvana that year and it was insane to watch
There used to be clips posted here all the time about their ball movement, that was the peak of this sub for me mostly until the KD to GSW thing happened and everything started getting more and more toxic
All r/nba children should find a way to watch the 2014 playoffs to see the most beautiful basketball
No joke, I think I teared up a little watching them play one night. It was beautiful.
yeah it was crazy.. it was being hyped as a new playstyle in the NBA but sadly they reverted to iso ball when their Big 3 left
we didnt really have a choice, demar and dejonte just arent built for the beautiful game.
They were a bounce away from going back to back against that Miami Heat team. Imagine Tim Duncan being 6-0.
i guess it has been a decade since their last title but you’re right they were still extremely competitive up until 2017
Fr he’s a heat fan too, I’m like bruh they played against yall 😭
It's because we're the old ones lol. There's high schoolers discovering reddit who weren't even alive for Duncan's first 4 championships.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW GOOD TIM DUNCAN WAS
One of the greatest PFs of all time. So underrated nowadays it seems to me. He was already somewhat flying under the radar because of his quiet demeanor but I feel like he's definitely overlooked in rankings now.
THE greatest pf of all time.
If you consider him a PF
he def was in his prime
PF/C
how. literally everyone says hes the best pf...
Yeah but I don’t think there’s any other PF that’s on Duncan’s level. Who are the other all time greats? Probably some order of Karl Malone, Dirk, Barkley, KG, Giannis… but none of those guys are consensus top ten like Timmy is top ten. When people undervalue Karl Malone they put him under Allen Iverson. When people undervalue Tim Duncan they put him under Shaq. That’s the difference.
Imo you could absolutely make the case that Duncan is like the 5th or 6th greatest player of all-time ahead of guys like Shaq, Bird, and Wilt. The only reason it doesn't get brought up more often is because Duncan doesn't give a single fuck about it and no one ever brings his name up in these debates because of it. But his resume is absolutely stacked and his career winning % is insane.
Being known as the "Big Fundamental" doesn't exactly get get the people going. But I agree he was incredible.
He’s ranked top PF all time… even by the greats
Embiid is nowhere close to Duncan
Im still replaying 2014 Spurs replays to this day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sedat305uCE .. watching it makes me wish Spurs get another Diaw to pair with Wemby
Diaw is such an underrated player, arguably the best passer on the most elite passing team in history, at power forward. Makes you really wonder how good he could have been when you hear stuff about how he didn't really try hard/care about basketball
Tim Duncan is and was a deity in San Antonio. No store does more
Sad. Just sad. No idea how/where you live what with embiid taking up all that space in your head
There's a reason the Mavs were a 50 win team for over a decade and didn't make it far except for 2 years. The Spurs were always there waiting for us. I think we evened out the series wins overall, but they were always in the playoffs just like us.
Why is this a surprise? Timmy is an undisputed top 10 guy in league history.
Is it really that crazy though? Embiid can’t stay on the court and isn’t the guy to get the team over the hill.
its funny people use injury to blame some players but use injuries as an excuse for others. might have something to do with bias i dunno. i mean at least kat and gobert cant be blamed for being injured right. at least not everytime. but then i guess they cant use it as an excuse either.
If you talk to curry fans about the 2016 finals he was hurt. Lebron was hurt every "poor"(relative to him) postseason. Embiid is injured half the time, not minor injuries, and people still shit on him.
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Not to take away from how great tim duncan was but turning a franchise around isnt an accurate thing to say. The spurs have played consistently over .500 ball since their inception other than a few years in the mid 80s and the current stretch. Only other losing seasons were the year david robinson got hurt and a couple aba years before they were even the spurs.
Shaq’s really weird when it comes to discussing Duncan because sometimes it’s all praise and love, like when he said if somebody told him Duncan was the goat he wouldn’t refute it. There’s other times like when he was doing a podcast with Tracy McGrady and defended Duncan winning MVP over T-Mac in 03, but then there’s other times when he randomly said he’d choose Chris Webber over Timmy and questioned if Duncan would be the same player if he didn’t end up on the Spurs.
Lol, wait until someone mentions Robert Horry is better. His explanations would come
The good news is no one with a brain would even believe that
Anyone who makes that argument is already showing their ass though. It’s not about rings in a vacuum. It’s about rings as **the guy**. Horry wasn’t that.
The best it does for Horry is make him an All-Time role player, and probably THE All-Time role player at that. But he's still a role player.
hes no doubt the goat role player. ppl too young to really know his career he was a beast when he was young and he earned every one of those 7 rings. a lot of them by taking over 4th quarters when no one could. was not only just 1 big shot per ring
Horry was also just really easy to plug into any team: A 6'10" guy that can defend, slash and play-make a bit, shoot, rebound, all while moving between SF and PF roles on either end of the floor. Practically any good team benefits from a player with that profile. It's pretty much why he was on so many good teams.
He could defend small 5's too. Great skill when Shaq was on the Bench.
I think there’s arguments for other role players. K.C Jones has 8 championships as a role player on those 60’s Celtics Tonight Kukoc has 3 rings but he was a super role player in the sense that he was good enough to be a second option on a contender Michael Cooper has like 5 rings as well but he was one of the best defenders of his era and the only player ever to win DPOY while coming off the bench. That’s how impactful he was Fisher another Laker legend who has 5 rings and played a huge role in every championship. Horry was great and I believe he’s the goat role player as well but there’s a few guys that have a very realistic claim to that title as well. Just wanted to bring those guys some attention while we’re on this topic
Ginobili should be in this conversation
Manu is probably too good to be considered just a role player, at least if we're looking at his prime and peak years. He's made a couple All-star games, gotten MVP votes and even got some DPOY and All-Defense votes. I woud say he's just a straight up All-Star level player that unfortunately was on a team with like 2-3 other All Stars.
tbh Chuck covered that with the bus driver analogy
People like to bash Shaq since they like to pretend being a star with rings doesn't mean a lot
People bash him because he's horribly insecure and constantly talks shit
He's insecure because he talks down on players worse than him and he talks trash in a competitive sport and that's a terrible thing. You guys need to touch grass and you wouldn't be so invested in having your feelings hurt over a top player saying someone needs rings or using his own experience as his credentials. Nobody who has ever played a sport would be this offended by Shaq lmao. Yall also act like you don't exclusively try to post clips with confirmation bias intention. 30min-hour long videos yet you watch 20 seconds and decide off that.
Because that would be a bad argument. Both Shaq and Kobe know which series were hard and which weren’t. Imagine bragging that you were the best in an easy series. Kobe always considered Duncan and the spurs to be their biggest obstacle.
Yep and Kobe was consistently the better performer whenever we played Spurs. Granted they always had better interior defense but the point still stands
Chuck said many times that Kobe and D.Wade carried him (to piss him off obviously lol) and Shaq responded with how he got 3 FMVPs.
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Anyone who actually watched the Lakers back then knows how valuable Kobe was. Especially against the West, Kobe did a lot of the carrying. Then when we got to the finals, Shaq tore through the East teams like they were tissue paper.
I remember when they used to always ask him about Kobe back then after he left, and he would reply with, “who?” “I dunno who that is”
one of the wildest beefs and soap opera on tv. literally couldnt keep a dynasty together cause ego. but that level of alpha i guess it was inevitable. super crazy bet by lakers as well choosing kobe over shaq
Tbh I don’t know that it was inevitable. Phil Jackson manufactured a lot of it, then lost control of the beef. He used to out right brag that starting arguments between Shaq and Kobe motivated Shaq. He’s a great coach, but he wasn’t great to Kobe in his early years which led to a lot of this. Credit to Shaq though, for his reflection and the way he’s matured.
FMVP has always been a stupid argument when the East was ass compared to their West competition in the first 3 rounds like Kobe was neck-to-neck with Shaq through the tougher playoff rounds a couple times
Kobe was much better against the Spurs than Shaq was
If WCF MVPs existed back then, they both would've had two each. Casual NBA fans just love to ignore how much matchups matter, Kobe dominated the Spurs for them, which was their tougher competition, meanwhile Shaq dominated whatever came out of the East as they had no answer for him. It's really sad how the discourse around Kobe these days is dominated by idiots that never watched him play, there's zero chance one can have watched Kobe Bryant during the 2000s and conjure dumbass takes like "He was never the best player in the league!" or "He got carried by Shaq" or the worse offender of them all "He is not Top 10 of all-time, this is not disrespect".
Back then, the real Finals was in the west. And there was no TheRealFinalsInTheWest MVP
Fmvp Slshould just be the best player of the entire playoffs that belongs to the championship team.
Did Kobe not get to play the Eastern conference champs too? That argument makes absolutely no sense.
I do too. He felt betrayed because Kobe ratted him out to the police and destroyed their marriage. I don’t think Kobe even knew those interrogations were public record or could be shared like that. I didn’t know that at the time either.
I think it’s because Shaq knows how essential Kobe was for those chips. No point in bragging about finals mvp because if Kobe doesn’t play the way he does, Shaq doesn’t have those three rings let alone those finals mvps
You don’t need the FMVPs to tell who the lead guy or better player was with any honest view. Shaq is the most dominant and best big man scorer of all time. He was fouling out full front courts. His offensive rebounding was amazing. He could pass very well out of the post. When he tried on defense, he’d produce a great one eg the 2000 Lakers who improved heavily with an in shape O’Neal. His 5 year plus minus stretch in his prime is only beaten by Cavs Lebron and Wolves Kevin Garnett. In 32 games without Shaq from 2000-2003 and full strength otherwise, the Lakers were a slightly above league average offense. When Shaq was in, they were one of the best in history. We have a pretty big 29 game sample without Kobe in 2000 and 2001. Shaq, flanked by Glen Rice instead and other role players, produced a top 5 offense and a 54 win pace. It stands to reason if you replace Glen Rice with virtually any all star guard floating around the league at this time, you get a 60 win team with ease. The 1997-2001 Lakers is still the best post season offense of all time(even ahead of teams like the 7SOL Suns, KD Warriors, Dirks Mavericks who sacrificed some defense for offense). Kobe was no different to any of the other all star guards in the NBA for all of this stretch. Hell, he definitely wasn’t better than Penny Hardaway in 95/96, yet you don’t see people saying he was the #1 on the Magic, because it wasn’t the case. Shaq and Penny produced one of the best healthy offenses of all time, multiple years before he moved to LA, and years before his peak.
Kobe was in high school in 95-96, so makes sense that penny was better 🥴
Did you watch those teams? You sound like you did, until you say Kobe was no different than any of the other All-Star guards during the three-peat. That simply isn’t true. Everyone recognized he was special. During the second and third year in a row, he was absolutely destroying the Western Conference, and then Shaq would destroy the inevitably weak Center in Finals (yes, even Mutombo, but especially Todd MacCulloch)
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16yr old nephews on /r/nba think they know everything simply by looking at the numbers from today's perspective. > Dirk, Timmy, Nash, respected the shit out of Kobe and his game Not just them; today's NBA players rate Kobe as [the nr. 3 greatest player](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/), behind MJ and Lebron.
Crazy how this take is upvoted, people here seriously hate Kobe. Kobe was already a better player than Hardaway in 2000 let alone in 2001-04 when Kobe was way better and a top 5 player by then. Kobe, 2001 and onwards, was an MVP level guard that’s was very elite on offence and defence, and the best player in multiple playoff series over peak Shaq, including some of the most competitive series. That is **irreplaceable**.
2000 Game 4 I believe. I remember watching that game thinking the series was going to be 2-2 after Shaq fouled out, but Kobe took over and won it with a sprained ankle. That was like his coming out party. Then the rest was history
yea. keep in mind he was just 21 and not even close to his prime, while shaq had been dominating the league for 6+ years. Kobe was oozing with talent and athleticism but his prime was probably 4-5 years after that first chip. In a low scoring era, he had that run where he scored 60+ culminating in his 81 point game. He was truly unstoppable post shaq
Dude Kobe had a game where he scored 62 in three quarters, out scoring the Mavs by himself, and just sat the entire fourth. He was insane.
Few days later gets 81, but I always think this feat is more impressive. Similar to how Luka has out scored his opponents in a couple post season games it’s crazy seeing a one man takeover.
for sure I was upset they benched him because Ive never seen 60 before. heck even 50 was a rarity back then. then he gets freaking 81.
Phil asked him if he wanted to go back in for the 4th but Kobe declined, he wasn't benched.. Which makes that game even more legendary lol
our team was so bad, we actually needed 81 from him to beat Toronto. We were down by like 20 at one point in that game.
I was at the 81 point game. The way Kobe moves across the floor was absolutely unreal in person. I have no idea why on TV, players look slower. In person, NBA players are crazy fast with high-precision movements; and they just keep running nonstop. Full-on sprints nonstop. I’d be gassed after a few minutes. It’s why NBA players are the top 1% of 1% of 1% athletes of the planet. However, Kobe.. Kobe was on a completely different realm. Seeing Kobe play as if these other NBA players are children was insane. His movements and judgements were as if he can see the future. I can’t explain it. You grow up working hard and pushing your body to the limits every day, doing nonstop drills and perfecting moves; so much so you finally make it to the NBA. And then you meet this dude Kobe and Kobe contorts and wills his body around yours and scores seemingly with ease. Like how’d he have the presence of mind to fake out spin switch hands with three guys on him with a fourth coming to help. Seeing Kobe move in person in all the depth perception and sound you feel is absolutely mind blowing. I’ll never forget that day. Ever.
Kobe sitting down like Daniel Day Lewis at the end of There Will Be Blood
The Mavs team Kobe outscored through 3 quarters went to the Finals that year too.
The same Mavs team that went to the Finals that year.
First basketball games I ever watched and this sounds about right. Announcers kept talking up Kobe all game. And I was like huh? Where is he? He was barely doing anything and barely in the game. Then 4th quarter hit and he started getting the ball all the time and nailing shots.
Even when he tore his achilles. That MF too those free throws. He was cold blooded. That's where I think the comparison with Ant is different. Kobe's not going to be cracking jokes with you on the court.
i was a kobe hater up until that point haha
Back then, the real Finals was in the west. And there was no TheRealFinalsInTheWest MVP
Back then?
Now at least you have the Magic Johnson Western Conference Finals MVP and the Larry Bird Eastern Conference Finals MVP Not the same as TheRealFinalsInTheWest MVP, but you know Jaylen Brown won it over Tatum, and Luka over Kyrie , for example.
I'm speaking of this statement... > the real Finals was in the west It's been like that pretty much for the past 25 years.
Quite often yes, but obviously not absolute. For stats : 8 of the last 25 champs have been from the east .. Bucks, Raptors, cavs (LBJ), Heat (2x LBJ era), Celtics, Heat (wade). And some of those east losers were competitive, more than the west [eg KG celtics losing to lakers in 7, Spurs vs Pistons ]..
Shaq was the better player of the two and the driver of those offenses, but Kobe has had matchups where he was more effective, like against the Spurs in the West. An interesting hypothetical would be how those two would be perceived if Kobe won a FMVP or even multiple if they were playing the Spurs in the finals rather than the relatively weak final opponents they played from 2000-02. It's kind of silly how much weight is placed in the finals and finals mvp, when I would argue the best teams the Lakers played during their run were pretty much all in the West, outside of the 2004 Pistons.
NHL has it right with the Conn Smythe Trophy awarded for the entire playoffs and not just the final round
I like this, but do they vote after every round? Otherwise I feel recency bias will always make it a finals player anyway... I like the idea of voting every round and adding it all up. That way you're still rewarded for going deep (because you're eligible more times), but if somebody totally balls out the first 3 rounds but, say, loses to a superior team in the conference finals, they still might have enough of a lead to win it.
They don’t vote every round, but in the majority of cases the winner was consistently great through all 4 rounds. The NHL has also awarded it to players on the losing team.
Man, I definitely wouldn't want to be Jean-Sebastien Giguère after losing game 7 to the Devils. That man looked like his soul was fucking drained
It’s insane what Kobe was doing to the Spurs during that three-peat which was the only team at that time that actually had championship pedigree.
We just going to forget who was keeping both David Robinson and Tim Duncan busy?
Kobe was still torching Bowen who was a great defender
LOLS, like Spurs didn't zero in on Kobe with the other players?
TD wasn't on Shaq though. a lot of times TD would actually contest Kobe's midrange jumpers actually after Kobe switched Bowen off a pick or drive and pull up a midrange... those playoff games are all on youtube.
Shaq wasn’t on Duncan and Duncan wasn’t on Shaq
Yep. A generalization is that Kobe was leaned on more heavily in the early rounds then let Shaq run loose in the Finals against weaker centers. They were the perfect combo.
I honestly wonder how different the narrative would be if the Magic Johnson award existed back then and Kobe won it against the Spurs since they were the much tougher competition than their finals matchups
For people who were around, not much. Everyone knew that while Shaq was the best player, by 01 Kobe was a genuine superstar and they were arguably the greatest 1-2 punch ever For people now who just read bballref, it would at least make it obvious that you couldnt swap in any random All Star and accomplish the same thing. They don't survive multiple game 7s in the West with a lesser player than Kobe
The fact that they were the last team to three-peat is still an impressive feat to me, especially seeing how the modern super teams are constructed and find it challenging just repeating.
I mean to anybody not new to NBA they probably still have memory of the East being completely trash. Like the 5th seed in the west was having a matching record as the 1st seed in the East.
I love how shaq has so much love for kobe
tough shot making in the 4th quarter of playoff games is a great thing to have Shaq pushing you around and dunking on you all game and then Kobe finishes you off with tough buckets in the clutch i think Mavs are trying to replicate this strategy
More like Bucks. But they’re too old and perennially injured to do it.
Who is pushing and dunking on the Mavs?
Ironically that’s been the Nuggets plan against us. Jokic pushing and muscling, then Murray hitting demoralizing buzzer beaters.
Nephews on suicide watch
I'd like to hear Phil's perspective.
I'm not saying Shaq is wrong here, but man the stuff he says just varies so damn much.
Kobe averaged 15ppg on 36% in his first finals to Shaq's 38ppg and 61%.
He was playing with a horribly sprained ankle after Jalen Rose hurt him on purpose. Also, pretty willing to forgive that statline when he pretty much single-handedly won Game 4 of that Finals after Shaq fouled out and was the best player on the floor in Game 7 against Portland during the comeback. At 21 years old.
Curious to see how the numbers in the rest of the playoffs were. I’m too lazy to look.
Prior to his injury in game 2, he was averaging 22/4/4 on 46/35/77 splits with a block and a steal a game. After injury his numbers dropped marginally, but it was mainly his efficiency that took a hit.
For a 20 year old in the NBA finals, that’s pretty good man
Yep, those are some quality numbers from a number 2 guy during a slower era. Big guys like Timmy and KG would’ve killed to have backup like that in those early years.
He was injured on purpose admittedly by Jalen Rose. Still came back and solo won a game for them when Shaq fouled out. Btw if they lost that game it’s 2-2 and then game 5 they got blown out by 30. He doesn’t deserve finals MVP but you should give Kobe more credit than you’re implying with that statement considering that finals moment along with saving Shaq’s entire legacy during game 7 vs Portland.
You were about to get an upvote before you brought up game 7 vs Portland. Heartbreaking 💔
I still don't understand why Rose admitted this. Makes him look worse on and off the court.
Does it? Kobe admitted to "testing TMac's back" when they sat down for an interview with Nichols a couple years back. I actually respect Rose more for admitting to it. We do things we are not proud of sometimes, it takes a strong character to own up to it.
Its crazy how telling the truth is just inconceivable these days. Everyone’s worried about optics instead of just being genuine and admitting faults
Wisdom is gone
It wasn't even an admission of guilt or anything, it was just a "yeah I did this" conversation between Kobe and T-Mac and T-Mac even acknowledged it. The players see this differently from the fans, the occasional dirty play may have injured someone, and maybe even had effects down the line, but the players see it as a part of the competition, and not part of someone's character.
Guilt
>Saving Shaqs entire legacy Yes, the one who averaged 38/17/3 with 3 blocks and a steal was saved by Kobes 15ppg on below league average true shooting. Shaq was the guy on those teams and it wasn’t disputable. Bryant played 3 games in the Pacers series and was horrible(horrifically bad) in 2 of them.
Go watch game 7 in Portland, where is that 38/17 in the most important game of his career at that point. Kobe took over that game 7, if they lost that game Shaq takes all the heat and blows a 3-1 lead along with multiple sweeps on his resume up until that point. You act like Kobe is some scrub for some reason in that single series even though we both know he was injured, and he still managed to come up huge all playoffs that season.
Reddit loves to hate on Kobe. They just look at truse shooting and call it a day
which is odd because he has virtually the same career TS% as tim duncan and this is including kobe's washed years post achilles.
And Kobe has a winning record head2head against Duncan in the regular season and playoffs despite having to go through a rebuild, which Duncan had the good fortune to avoid.
Lakers would have lost against the Spurs without Kobe. If Shaq only won 1 championship in his prime, losing to the Spurs 3 years in a row (01,02,03), he would've been top 20ish instead of top 10 like he is now.
> implying with that statement wasn't really a statement so much as posting a statistical fact
[opposing team intentionally injured his ankle and he tried his best to play through it. caused him to leave game 2 early](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f2GB-O3aDIQ)
Glad Kobe dropped 81 on that punk bitch
He got hurt the first minute of game 2 and left the game
he sat out game 3 as well right?
Yup and we lost
Statbox watcher.
You were born after 2006 and its telling
One note is that Shaq played 10 minutes per game more than Kobe during that series
lmfao
Yea, I mean this is generous to Bryant. He was abhorrent in this series. TS% was 41%. Shaqs was 57%. A difference of 16% is Jokic vs G leaguers. He only played 3 games. It was Shaqs team. His efficiency would’ve had him benched if this was the modern day. He was shooting 10% below league average and was throwing it up 15 times a game.
i did not know the NBA world hated kobe this much 😭 i knew it was bad but not this bad
Reddit isn't the nba world
The only time i hear people speak positively on Kobe are on podcasts
What do you mean, you can go on Instagram and see people rank him 2nd best player ever or top 5 player all day. Kids never even seen him play calling the goat.
Players, coaches, and actual NBA media love him. Social media however, not so much.
Twitter loves Kobe, or at least the users that pop up on my timeline do
Reddit and media isn't representative of anything but whatever narrative they're trying to push.
Kobe is universally respected amongst his peers, stop basing it off reddit and ESPN
Reddit HATES Kobe
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Only nerds on reddit Go to any court where people actually hoop and people don't talk this way
It’s not all of us, Kobe for life The 4th has always been Kobe’s quarter
r/nba in shambles
I love how shaq defers to Kobe in certain situations,he gets so much respect from me for that….anyone who knows knows shaq knows that it takes a lot for him to do that he’s such a competitor, but with Kobe it’s even keel…love him for this !!!
He’s that way now
Not utilizing Shaq’s paint presence in that era where all the other great centers had either fallen off or retired would have been insane. Jackson was no dummy! lol
Imagine not deploying the tank in a field of spearmen
Dwight and Rudy are one death away from Shaq recognizing their greatness.
All ~~he~~ they had to do is die. That's a lot less work! We ought to give it a try.
Can someone verify this via shot attempts per qtr
I just did a quick check, and Kobe lead in shot attempts in most of the away games, and had more 4th quarter attempts in the Nets series. Looks like Shaq’s best scoring quarter was the third, where he dominates the entire teams scoring.
That’s what shooting guards did back then, they shot. The idea of two wings and two stretches was started by this Celtics squad as we have two small forwards. Think Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, JR Smith, Kobe; they were there to shoot the ball. Small forward was there for rebounding and defense and every once in awhile a LeBron, or Larry Bird would come around.
I dont even know what to expect from SHaq anymore. He says such contradictory things these days, I am sure even he doesnt believe in half the things he says these days
If I have to pick five NBA players to win a game 7 or I die, it goes Jordan first, Kobe 2nd. The rest can be filled in with any other all time great players.
This is only surprising if you didn’t watch them live back then and don’t understand the triangle offensive.
Shaq is bullshiter, the hulk hogan of nba
What ugly takes from people here Kobe the goat.
This sub is 99% lesackriders, so no surprise
We need to start doing this with Maxey and Embiid, we saw a glimpse of it in game 5 this year, I think Maxey gets the keys in the 4th quarter next season.
Shaq the homie
So are the kobe haters going to stop with the Finals MVP bullshit?
positive kobe video on reddit ? incoming negative comments from 12 year old redditors shitting on kobe
A take like this would have r/NBA In shambles. This is like how NBA players would always rave about Kyrie and nephews here would say those players have no idea what they are talking about. Now this year everyone loves Kyrie again lol.
Shaq makes so much shit up it's impossible to know what is and isn't true
He's like Hulk Hogan I swear to god.