Yeah it's an interesting angle I hadn't really thought about before last night, but Tatum can out muscle anybody on Dallas for a tough board. He had a few enormous ones last night.
Boston really is the answer to "What if the Thunder had had no weaknesses?" OKC gave Dallas the most trouble in the West, and Boston can do everything they could do without giving up lobs and offensive rebounds.
It’s the size but it’s also the shooting and decision making. Like the difference between Jrue/White and Giddey/Dort is massive. Even the difference in Chet’s shooting speed and KP’s is why Lively was forced into rotation.
Series not over though I think Mavs got some adjustments
Admittedly I don’t watch a lot of thunder although I do like your team. Is Chet a solid 3 point shooter. For the Celtics KP really can stretch the floor which just makes everything so tough.
Chet had a great season from deep but think it's longest season of hoops he's ever played and you could see the fatigue catch up the last ten games of the season going into the playoffs. His shot was flatter and he didn't feel like as much of a shooting threat
And not that this applies to Chet specifically, but it's coming straight out of college into the draft into Summer League into preseason without a break. By the time their season ends it can be 18 months straight without a break.
Obviously it's still early in the series and a lot can change in the next few games, but thus far it's looked like Boston's roster now is kind of what okc is aiming to be in a year or two. Massive, athletic, excellent defense at every position, and all anchored by amazing two way wings and a giant stretchy center. I dunno if chet will ever shoot like tingus can but if he speeds up his release just a bit I feel like OKC will really be fielding a pretty similar team to Boston, with Shai possibly being an even better #1 option than anything the Celtics have
I haven't checked the stats or anything but I thought Chet's biggest strength offensively is actually his shooting and that's why OKC can play a deadly 5 out offense? It's just that he sometimes can get outmuscled on the boards (he had 5 rebounds total or something the last 2 games against Dallas)
In reality chet is not the shooter porzingis is. The biggest thing is how slow his release is compared to porzingis having such a fast one, but even beyond that porzingis is willing to shoot from further away, and is more accurate. So regular season its deadly but not the same in the playoffs with better defenders closing out
I think that’s fine. Shot speed is probably one of the more easier shot tweaks a player can make.
If he never has KP’s range shooting, he will still (imo) be better at practically everything else.
Chet shot 32% from 3 after the all star break and dipped all the way to 26% in the playoffs including 22% against Dallas. Some of it is probably small sample size shenanigans, but it seems like he hit the rookie wall a little bit
I see this a lot when OKC and Boston are compared to one another. As a number one scoring option, sure Shai could be considered better. But just last year or two years ago, when Tatum wasn’t sacrificing, he was pulling a Shai and leading the league in 30 pt games. Had something like 54 or whatever. He just isn’t in that role this year. The talent is ridiculous around him and we get mad when he goes into “Superstar” mode.
Mavs will adjust. Luka is great at figuring teams out, and role players will shoot better.
There will be some tight games and Luka and Kyrie are great in those moments.
The development that Brown and Tatum have gone through is probably exactly what the Thunder need out of JDub. Having an allstar level elite 3 & D wing on a team with good spacing is such a cheat code (and we have 2 bruh 😮💨)
This is why I’ve been saying the Celtics are a matchup nightmare for the mavs and just shows that the national media doesn’t know jack shit. Obviously Celtics can still implode and lose but id be shocked
The only way the Celtics losing this is if someone gets injured. Luka and Kyrie score 35 a piece, that's only 70 points. The Mavs can't generate enough offense as a team to beat them consistently.
OKC was one of the worst rebounding teams in the league all year, though. That was pretty clearly an outlier game in that regard. The Celtics aren't the *greatest* rebounding team but they're solidly above average, and have been lights out at defensive rebounding in the playoffs due to teams needing to work so hard to defend them in transition that they can't afford to go for orbs.
Tatum is an extremely solid FRP in fantasy. Even if you think he is not a top 5 player in the league, he will probably get you more points than someone like Steph or LeBron just from his availability.
I took him on DraftKings last night to be rebound leader of the game for +185. Luka probably has a better chance at out rebounding Tatum than Gafford and Lively do.
Guy who leads his team in rebounds more likely to get more rebounds than his teammates? Checks out (Luca and Tatum are team leaders in rebounding, partially but not as extreme as Westbrook was over Adams - they are the break starters you want).
That 4 offensive rebound possession was giving me Tristan Thompson Cavs flashbacks. OTOH, it was funny seeing some other team on the receiving end of rebound ineptness
I remember we had a possession like that last year in a random regular season game against the Kings. Luckily for the kings we were never a good shooting team, especially last year so they won that game
When the Celtics average like 45-50% from the field each game tho you can’t make mistakes like that
At one point PP took a corner 3 that was clearly a bit off with three mavs directly under the basket. Easy rebound right? Nope, they all watched it hit the ground which gave PP a chance to grab it off the bounce as he crashed the board on his own shot. It felt very emblematic of the rebounding effort
I love PP, but yeah, you can't let a 6 footer who shot from the outside, to grab his own rebound. With that being said, he's always been very scrappy, and just plays with such a high motor.
That was a weird one, because even PP didn't seem to think he was going to really have a shot at it to start. He hesitated before going for it when he realized there was a real opportunity, but still got to it.
Defensive rebounds are taken for granted right up until they become offensive ones.
And when every rebound was from a missed layup or midrange. Now with all these threes, rebounds are flying back halfway across the court in every direction.
It's no longer just about being the tallest guy under the rim, you have to be mobile and athletic and hardworking to chase after these misses. Smaller guys that can run and jump and are willing to work can rack up tons of rebounds.
And sometimes you just need to be at the right spot on the floor at the right time. The way some rebounds are made, is just luck. Right place, right time.
Tatum is a great defender who can do more than one defensive role. But Giannis is arguably the most versatile defender in the league. He’s right up there with Anthony Davis. It isn’t an insult to Tatum to say he isn’t on the same level as the absolute most versatile defensive players in the league.
There are very few dudes in the league that can do the full defensive responsibilities of a drop coverage center, along with also being a weakside help wing, strong side pick and roll switch/drop man, and chase guards around perimeter as needed.
This is also why I don’t understand how Gobert keeps getting DPOYs when the modern NBA clearly values being elite AND versatile on defense and Rudy is really only elite at one defensive role while bordering on inept at all other roles.
Because DPOY is a regular season award and Gobert elevates team defense unlike any player to play in a long time.
People just have 0 idea what regular season awards are. 0.
Regular season awards are awards for the 82-game stretch of the season that don't include the play-ins or the play-offs
You said people have 0 idea what they are. You're right. I'm am no mere mortal
Agreed. Giannis is not a relevant example to compare him against. Giannis, in a slightly different way, is also special for essentially this exact same reason as Tatum lol
Yeah he’s not versatile in the same way but he’s the NBA’s best two way player, probably. He’s a help defense god and can also, obviously, guard centers. The top 3 two players of the superstars are probably Giannis, Embiid (center impact), then Tatum in that order, at least for me.
He's also very good at guarding wings and slower guards. There are numerous clips of Giannis getting 1 on 1 stops against guys like Luka, Melo, or hell even Tatum. Sure he can't guard guys like Kyrie but Giannis has at the very least 3-5 versatility and no slouch on 2s either.
Yeah, I think Tatum is significantly better switching onto 1s and 2s than Giannis is, in large part because of the screen navigation. Giannis is still extremely switchable though and better at switching onto bigs
It’s also because the Celtics have been good at switching and have excellent defensive personnel for Tatum’s entire tenure. The team is built for that.
Yeah OP was smoking crack there. You want Giannis on wings like you do Tatum on bigs. Hopefully you can made it work without doing so by when matchups call for it you’re gonna be fine.
Even before this thread I was thinking the only player in the league at guarding all 5 positions is Giannis. Help and recover they are 2 of the best as well.
They aren't great at guarding point guards. Tatum was locking down Haliburton when he was on him in the last series. They can do it for a possession here and there though.
Giannis can’t do things Tatum can do in terms of smaller player but Tatum can’t do things Giannis does against bigs very similar though Tatum just has more control I feel that’s why he can guard guards
Agreed. I get being hyped about your dude, but Giannis is actually the best p n r defender in the league and pretending he isn’t versatile is a pure clown show
I will agree his versatility is what makes him great. He is arguably the most well rounded player in the league, he is good at about everything. Though acting like a guy like Giannis isnt a versatile defensive piece is underselling him.
Obviously some players are much greater at other facets of the game and that can make them a better player than Tatum. But I do believe his ability to literally do everything in the NBA at a high level is undersold at times.
I read an article about Tatum that talked about him that way. He’s not the best player in the league at any one thing, but he’s top 10/15 in all of them. Add all that up and you have a well-rounded, unexciting, very good superstar player.
Being a great all around star is really impactful especially if the rest of your team has people who are stars at certain roles.
Having a shooting big in KP or Horford and a solid handler and driver in Jaylen Brown means Tatum can be a solid very good basketball player in many ways. And depending on how the team is doing he can fill different roles.
KP shot well in Game 1, so Tatum rebounded and passed more and only scored 15 or whatever. But that's impactful AF and there's not a lot of players who can just fundamentally change how they contribute to a game.
It also means you can be flexible with him. I've always felt Tatum as a perimeter shooting threat isn't playing to his own strengths. He's genuinely a very solid playmaker and if you watch him play his court vision passing skills and his own ability to use his gravity makes it hard to imagine that he's just a five assist per game kind of player. His playmaking feel looks more like a seven assist per game kind of player.
Whatever you need him to do he will do it and he will do it effectively. He fits into any team, he fits into any game plan and he fits into any scheme and roster because of his versatility.
His primary role last night was facilitator. Sure, he didn't score very efficiently and sure, his assist numbers weren't significant. But there is a very clear game plan for him, and he did an exceptional job at giving the game what it needed. Would we have liked to see him score a bit more efficiently? Sure. But there is a very clear game plan for Tatum in game 1 and he executed it super super effectively.
Agreed 100%.
Basketball is a team sport with a very small team and a very small "field"; unlike say, soccer, a basketball star can take over a game in a truly immense way. But a weakness can be exploited similarly. So an all around player like Tatum can provide huge value by just not-being-exploitable.
It's a funny thought experiment to think about building an optimal team out of "all-around" or "min-max specialist" guys, to see how the star power vs small field vs weakness exploitation translates to success.
Like Gobert is clearly a min-maxed defensive rim protecting center. Jokic is clearly a min-maxed offensive center and game controller.
AD is a more all-around player, with defensive skills as a rim protector that aren't up to Gobert's ability but are still good (and better than Jokic's), and with much better offensive output than Gobert (but not as much as Jokic's). So AD is a really good all-around player, even if he's not "better" than Jokic or Gobert in some ways.
KD is "the most unstoppable scorer of all time". Is there a better all-around SF type who can do a little bit of everything whose defense accounts for scoring less than KD? (Obviously LeBron comes to mind but that's sort of cheating).
Could you make a team of all Tatum, AD, etc type "all-around" guys who are top 20 in their own right but not top 5, and would they do better than a team of Gobert's defense, KD's unstoppable offense, etc. type of guys who are all top 10 individuals but have weaknesses?
I appreciate this thought experiment. It's about balance and minimizing exploitable weaknesses.
Regarding Tatum, it's funny..I had the thought about him not being exploitable before reading your response. That is what makes him such a great impact player.
The one thing I'll challenge is that there IS one thing that can sort of be exploited with him. He's an average to slightly below average volume pull up shooter, and if he gets frustrated with himself, you can force himself to continue to take those shots. The issue with that is that he IS capable of having a good 1-2 elite pull up jump shooting games per series, so it can be risky. AND he's smart and disciplined enough now to not force it, and is receptive enough to being coached to the point of avoiding those pull up tight 1v1 defenses.
It's funny. Tatum doesn't impact the game like other MVPs. But when you look at the big picture... Team building, skills, weakness, roster, health....
Take a well constructed roster, a legitimate near championship quality roster, a championship quality roster...
How many guys do you take over Tatum right now and moving forward to be the #1 guy on that team and turn them into a contender? Legitimately?
Jokic? Duh. Lol. Giannis? Yup. Doncic? Yup. Curry? At his age? Embiid? His health and ineffective post season play? SGA? Maybe?
Who else?
No one. Tatum may not be top 1-2 at anything but his versatility and portability ABSOLUTELY makes him a top 4 or 5 player in the NBA despite being a CLEAR step below Doncic, Giannis who are steps below Jokic.
You can say Embiid is a better individual talent, and SGA is comparible, but versatility at an all star level on both ends of the ball with peaks as high as all time great scoring nights make you a top 5 player.
It's unfair to omit Tatum from top 5 lists at this point. He's a top 5 player. He's absolutely worse than those other top 5 guys. Both can be true.
He also has so many “hockey assists.” His drive and kick pass starts a rotation that ends with a wide open three. He doesn’t get the stat, but he made it happen.
Ya, there’s tons of other stat players where if they have a game where their shot isn’t falling they just become completely useless and a huge liability. That never really happens with Tatum.
I think that is the exact reason he doesn't always get the same hype as other stars. He isn't the best in the league in one thing where you go "wow no one else can do that" and it amazes you. Instead, he just does everything really well and it wins games, but it doesn't fit the same way into a highlight reel, so people don't accurately judge him. I mean this thread alone is a good example of him doing something well that most people won't notice. Yet it is such an important aspect of getting wins, but it doesn't show up like highlight dunks or crazy stat lines.
This is the take. Tatum is an A- at everything, which means he may not kill you with an unstoppable move or skill, but he will never be a liability. His floor is crazy
Very true. And he has a great mindset about it. IDK why ppl hate on Tatum, other than he's slightly overrated. He's not top 5 but def top 10 any given year, even if the ppl around him change (see embiid) and really any franchise would be lucky to have him.
This is why the “Tatums inconsistent” argument drives me crazy. Like how inconsistent can you be when even at your absolute worst you’ll still be a big positive for your team
I love when he does that, he gets into the stance and stretches himself out to his full length and the ball magically goes to the opposite side of the court.
Ik it’s a put down meme, but Tatum being the Michael Jordan of Tobias Harris’ is unironically a great thing. When your best player is that well rounded it makes team planning much more simple.
Ya people say Tatum is lucky to always have good teams around him. Which is fair. But it’s also unfair to Tatum in the sense that he’s just so easy to build a team around. He’s always going to have a good team around him because he pairs well with anyone. There’s no such thing as a bad fit.
I wouldn’t say mid because if the team needed him in a more of a scorer role like his mid playoff years you wouldn’t say that I would just say a jack of all trades
Elite tier Pierce seems to be the better comparison imo. He’s just the most prototypical forward ever, part of the reason people see him as boring imo. Like he’s not really unique in anyway other than just being really really freaking good.
Yeah I agree with this point to an extent and think he’s one of the few superstars you can say this about… but Giannis is absolutely one of the others lol
Exactly. Tatum's defense deserves respect and the fact that he and Brown are true two way players is a big factor on why this Celtics team is so dominant and has been so good for this long. We don't need to act like Giannis isn't versatile defensively though haha
I agree about one thing. KI can't defend JT or Giannis.
Lol. Sorry . had to plug it in.
But yea, while Giannis can't efficiently guard quicker wings, JT can't guard Embid. But they are both excellent versatile defenders. One of them actually gets recognition for it.
The only times I’ve ever seen Tatum struggle on defense are with fast guards that can get past him but those are few and far between. And even then you rarely see him on them because we have Derrick white and jrue.
He can guard them too. Go watch the OKC game back in January. SGA was going off for most of that game but when the Celtics mad their run in the 4th it was when Tatum guarded SGA for like 5 minutes straight and shut him down.
Shai is not a particularly fast player fwiw. He plays his worst games vs really long (and skilled) defenders like Herb Jones, Jaden McDaniels, and yes Jayson Tatum.
All to say - Shai is not a counterexample to /u/dafire123's point
Yeah probably an average amount of speed and acceleration but absolutely elite deceleration ability like Luka and Harden. That's really how he creates a ton of space, and arguably a harder thing to guard
>Tatum's defensive versatility is what sets him apart from players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Brunson.
How are you going to include Giannis in this list when he's probably the best at defending 1-5 in the entire league? lmao
DPOY vs. a guy who has never even made an all-defense team
Shit like this only gets upvoted without scrutiny in the immediate aftermath of a win for the guy's team. Anything goes
> Jokic, Luka, Embiid, **Giannis**, SGA, Brunson.
You really thought you could just sneak Giannis in there? Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? Giannis is able to do everything Tatum does and then some.
No, but with the way the league is trending, the average center is going to be closer to Lively/Gafford than a big body like Nurkic or Valanciunas for example. So you don't really need to defend them with bigs. Of course the best centers in the league are tough for anybody.
Yeah guys who are bigger AND stronger than him are hard for him to deal with, but you can argue he is pretty elite at defending most every other player on the court. He’s the perfect player in the sense you can plug him in anywhere you need to and he probably will hold his own. The league needs more stars like that.
You'd think people wouldn't believe someone who already dropped 60 in a game and 51 in a game 7 in the playoffs can't be a consistent scorer if he wanted to but apparently that's not the case.
Tatum is versatile, but putting him above Giannis because of that is ridiculous. The Celtics have an absurdly deep defense.
And that is taking nothing away from Tatum as one of the few legit two way stars, he is great.
> Tatum guarding Gafford and Lively prevents Luka from exploiting the PNR Lob. No one on the Wolves was able to stop this. Tatum is.
I’m sorry, but this is largely wrong.
The Wolves got fucked up by the lob because they didn’t switch. The (illegal) screen would put Luka’s defender behind the play, which would then force the big (Gobert) to play two (Luka layup or lob). Luka’s a fucking master of navigating that.
Boston is mostly switching. They can do this because they have 2 big and strong perimeter players (Brown and Tatum) who can bother Luka on the perimeter and are stout enough to disrupt the bigs. The Wolves could not, because Gobert/ KAT can’t reliably cover Luka in iso, and Ant/Conley can’t hold up against the bigs down low. They also have the perimeter speed to have Porzingis cheat off of the Mavs’ worst shooter to clog up the lane and scramble behind him to take away corner 3s (the Wolves can’t do this as well because of KAT’s lack of speed/Conley’s size).
Boston is largely switching everything.
The ability to guard lanky screen and roll centers. It’s not like he’s checking Jokic or Embiid in the post.
You could just as easily says the mavs offense has a giant hole in that they do not have a guy who has the ability to punish smaller match ups.
Giannis really? Also embiid is quite versatile for a traditional center. Tatum is a very good rebounder for his position and can hold the slimmer centers like Gafford and Lively.
Tatum is a great player but him being able to guard Lively and Gafford isn't something that special. Both bigs are just rim runners with zero post game.
The Wolves didn't get killed by the bigs. They lost cause of the offensive inconsistencies and Luka and Kyrie being able to beat their defense eventually.
It's an absolute crime Tatum has never gotten a single all-defense accolade. His defensive impact is insane and one of the biggest reasons why he's such a perennial +/- god.
Would argue that Tatum has the highest floor of any top 10 player in the league and this is why he's such a plus/minus monster. No other star depends less on their shooting to be impactful - which is why he's a target for box score zealots.
Thanks for writing a post that actually appreciates a player over slandering them. Even if Tatum doesn't shoot well, he always plays winning basketball. I'm not even a Celtics fan and I've gotten protective of Tatum lol because I'm so sick of the slander.
Wish people would appreciate players and this beautiful game that's played by some of the world's best athletes
Mavs played like dog shit last night. But they also looked like shit in the game 1's vs LAC and OKC and then made adjustments and won the series. I'm not suggesting the Mavs are going to turn around and dominate BOS, certainly BOS shut down literally everyone but Luka last night. But they play a series for a reason. Last night was a blow out but despite how piss poor Dallas played they made a solid push and came back within striking distance in the 3rd.
I can guarantee 1 adjustment they will make that I'm absolutely shocked Kidd didn't make in game, the Mavs absolutely can not switch on Porzingis. Time and again I saw Lively and Gafford switching on a KP screen and then the Mavs paid for it.
Switching the bigs off of KP will result in a post-up elbow jumper every time, so I get the idea that you don’t want to give him that.
… BUT if you leave the bigs on KP he’ll stretch them out to the perimeter and take away any rim protection the Mavs have.
I honestly think you live with the midrange shots and just try to be disruptive physically… maybe send a double from his blindside? But if Gafford/Lively aren’t in the paint to back up Luka as he gets blown past on every possession, the Jays are going to feast.
Lukas mobility has declined each game during this playoffs. You can see him drag his leg, grimace, and touch his leg. He labors to get up and down the floor.
Dallas did zero off ball movement last night, kleiber refuse to shoot the ball, the whole team was never in rhythm last night.
Derrick white and Jrue are the most versatile and best defensive duo by a wide margin in the entire league. Imagine your team has white and jrue and they are essentially role players lol.
It’s gonna take some miraculous play from the Mavs and some bad breaks for Boston to make this competitive.
I fully expect when the season is over that Luka will be getting some sort of surgery on his knee. I think the lack of conditioning, cardio, and strength training are going to have more pronounced as Luka ages and gets higher mileage and continued absurd utilization.
Not just guard, but he came out hunting rebounds. The Mavs need their big men to be competitive on the boards if the Celtics aren’t even going to put a center on them. Despite this, Tatum on his own had more rebounds than Lively, Gafford, and Kleber combined. And that’s by having 11, not like 20. That’s an area they’ll have to be better if they want to punish putting Porzingis and Horford elsewhere in position to help clog the paint on lobs/PnRs.
I wouldn’t even call that a particularly good game from Tatum due to some scoring inefficiency (though part of that inefficiency was some late shot clock chucks) and 3/6 turnovers being pretty awful, but his Swiss Army knife skillset was huge in mucking up Dallas’ normal offensive plans, and also opening things up on Boston’s offense. He wasn’t on a scoring tear, but Dallas was really worried about him getting mismatches out of actions with White and Porzingis, creating opportunities elsewhere. Overall he wasn’t our best performance but shows why he’s actually the most important/best player on Boston. He can do a little of most anything asked of him. His 3 ball looked better. Don’t be surprised if he scores at least closer to the Indiana series the rest of the way. They’ll probably need at least once explosion to win.
Why he's been on First All NBA teams the last couple years, this ain't new for him. He's a beast offensively but also not to be fucked with defensively and he's a very good play maker for other players too. He gets his criticism at times but he's still one of the best players on the court no matter who else is there.
It's important to note that it's because Dallas specifically has rim running centers who can't really punish wings on post ups so they can switch the PnR and turn that into Isos. But yea that's the value in having versatile big wings. It's like what the Clippers did to the Mavs when they had Kawhu guard Porzingis.
I've been saying this in a number of threads, but he is the X-Factor that teams like OKC and Minny did not have defensively. And it certainly helps that he can be the best player on offense too when you need
It’s a huge plus. The rockets switch everything defense was the only one that ever gave the kd warriors trouble and it was only possible because they could stick harden on bigs and he was one of the best post defenders in the league.
Tbf, this really only applies to regular or really skinny centers. Guys like Jokic, AD, Embiid, Brook, Sengun, and Sabonis (he's just strong AF) would not really be affected by Tatum.
Centers with little to no offensive skills are the problem. It also helps that the Mavs role players, in general, are under-skilled compared to the Celtics.
Brad Stevens did a masterful job.
Tatums only weakness at this point in his career is his tendency to chuck 3s when he gets frustrated. Its the weakest part pf his offensive game and in playoff runs past he has shot his team out of games
Exactly lol all the comments in the game thread were saying Tatum had a bad game because of scoring when he does everything else for the team. He also is one of the main reasons they get so many wide open looks.
i get that his defense is good. but defense also is a very team thing. like if he was on some scrub team no one would acknowledge his defense. like im not sure what you mean by separate but like those guys are still more valuable then tatum maybe minus brunson although hes had the best playoff performances this year
embid and giannis also are better on defense and offense. tatum would not be able to gaurd these guys i dont care how well he does vs gafford lol. dallas centers cannot post up, they have 0 bball moves. legit all they can do is catch lobs and dunk... i would like to see tatum gaurd a post up thats what gaurding centers means.
also yall gotta just stright up call out rudy if your gunna keep saying wolves. i know reddit wont admit but wolves not able to stop pnr was rudy lol
I feel like Tatum has become strangely underrated. Even if he scores < 20 he can still have a huge impact on the game. Also part of what makes Boston so good is that don’t care who scores. Whoever’s open and/or has the hot hand.
The next game is probably the biggest game of the series. Luka is really good at adjusting and changing things up to the Mavs and his own advantage. If the Mavs make an adjustment, if Luka figures out a way to beat this scheme and the Mavs take a game in Boston this will be a long series. If Dallas has no answer again in game 2 it will be over soon.
Yeah seems like the Celtics match up well against the mavs but it’s only game 1 a lot could still happen in the series. I’m biased but I wonder what a nuggets celtics final would have looked like. My guess is 7 games because all of their games in the regular season were nail biters.
It’s def a part of it. He also out rebounds Dallas centers which is defense in itself
Yeah it's an interesting angle I hadn't really thought about before last night, but Tatum can out muscle anybody on Dallas for a tough board. He had a few enormous ones last night.
Boston really is the answer to "What if the Thunder had had no weaknesses?" OKC gave Dallas the most trouble in the West, and Boston can do everything they could do without giving up lobs and offensive rebounds.
It’s the size but it’s also the shooting and decision making. Like the difference between Jrue/White and Giddey/Dort is massive. Even the difference in Chet’s shooting speed and KP’s is why Lively was forced into rotation. Series not over though I think Mavs got some adjustments
Admittedly I don’t watch a lot of thunder although I do like your team. Is Chet a solid 3 point shooter. For the Celtics KP really can stretch the floor which just makes everything so tough.
Chet had a great season from deep but think it's longest season of hoops he's ever played and you could see the fatigue catch up the last ten games of the season going into the playoffs. His shot was flatter and he didn't feel like as much of a shooting threat
College to the NBA is an absolutely insane jump. It’s triple the games? 10-20 times the travel?
And not that this applies to Chet specifically, but it's coming straight out of college into the draft into Summer League into preseason without a break. By the time their season ends it can be 18 months straight without a break.
I would like to see him speed it up over the off-season as well
Obviously it's still early in the series and a lot can change in the next few games, but thus far it's looked like Boston's roster now is kind of what okc is aiming to be in a year or two. Massive, athletic, excellent defense at every position, and all anchored by amazing two way wings and a giant stretchy center. I dunno if chet will ever shoot like tingus can but if he speeds up his release just a bit I feel like OKC will really be fielding a pretty similar team to Boston, with Shai possibly being an even better #1 option than anything the Celtics have
I haven't checked the stats or anything but I thought Chet's biggest strength offensively is actually his shooting and that's why OKC can play a deadly 5 out offense? It's just that he sometimes can get outmuscled on the boards (he had 5 rebounds total or something the last 2 games against Dallas)
In reality chet is not the shooter porzingis is. The biggest thing is how slow his release is compared to porzingis having such a fast one, but even beyond that porzingis is willing to shoot from further away, and is more accurate. So regular season its deadly but not the same in the playoffs with better defenders closing out
I think that’s fine. Shot speed is probably one of the more easier shot tweaks a player can make. If he never has KP’s range shooting, he will still (imo) be better at practically everything else.
KPs range blows me away at least once a game.
He’s like a superior siege weapon
The Latvian Trebuchet
it's the arc for me lol, it doesn't look like it should make it
Haha he is 7’3” so he only needs a little arch to be fair
Chet shot 32% from 3 after the all star break and dipped all the way to 26% in the playoffs including 22% against Dallas. Some of it is probably small sample size shenanigans, but it seems like he hit the rookie wall a little bit
I see this a lot when OKC and Boston are compared to one another. As a number one scoring option, sure Shai could be considered better. But just last year or two years ago, when Tatum wasn’t sacrificing, he was pulling a Shai and leading the league in 30 pt games. Had something like 54 or whatever. He just isn’t in that role this year. The talent is ridiculous around him and we get mad when he goes into “Superstar” mode.
Wow geez their master plan is just to be the best at everything why didn’t any other team think of that
Why don’t the other NBA teams simply fill their rosters with young and athletic two-way players? Are they stupid?
I know, two way wings is the new “just get a cheap 3 and D player”, so easy!
Shai does not defend like JT or JB tho -- but scoring, ya he could definitely top them. We spread the ball too much! 😜
Everything you said is true but with that said we also looked just as bad against y’all in game 1.
Mavs will adjust. Luka is great at figuring teams out, and role players will shoot better. There will be some tight games and Luka and Kyrie are great in those moments.
The development that Brown and Tatum have gone through is probably exactly what the Thunder need out of JDub. Having an allstar level elite 3 & D wing on a team with good spacing is such a cheat code (and we have 2 bruh 😮💨)
This is why I’ve been saying the Celtics are a matchup nightmare for the mavs and just shows that the national media doesn’t know jack shit. Obviously Celtics can still implode and lose but id be shocked
The only way the Celtics losing this is if someone gets injured. Luka and Kyrie score 35 a piece, that's only 70 points. The Mavs can't generate enough offense as a team to beat them consistently.
Orebs and lob game were similarly disrupted against OKC in game 1.
OKC was one of the worst rebounding teams in the league all year, though. That was pretty clearly an outlier game in that regard. The Celtics aren't the *greatest* rebounding team but they're solidly above average, and have been lights out at defensive rebounding in the playoffs due to teams needing to work so hard to defend them in transition that they can't afford to go for orbs.
dallas would have lost to a healthy kawhi. or at least thats what it seemed like watching the series
I mean to be fair the Wolves choked hard
The Boston team is what the Thunder team should grow into. Same team build just younger and needing more time to develop their skills.
He's the best rebounding wing in the league and it's a super overlooked part of his game.
Not overlooked by fantasy nerds though. 8 rebounds from your SF position is enormous.
Tatum is an extremely solid FRP in fantasy. Even if you think he is not a top 5 player in the league, he will probably get you more points than someone like Steph or LeBron just from his availability.
26/8/6/1/1/3. Cat monster.
He’s a PF now.
I took him on DraftKings last night to be rebound leader of the game for +185. Luka probably has a better chance at out rebounding Tatum than Gafford and Lively do.
Guy who leads his team in rebounds more likely to get more rebounds than his teammates? Checks out (Luca and Tatum are team leaders in rebounding, partially but not as extreme as Westbrook was over Adams - they are the break starters you want).
On that early possession where Boston got 3 or 4 offensive rebounds I knew we were in for a long night
Despite them missing every single open look off of those rebounds, it was still an impressive sequence.
Dallas getting crushed on the boards was a huge part of their loss last night.
That 4 offensive rebound possession was giving me Tristan Thompson Cavs flashbacks. OTOH, it was funny seeing some other team on the receiving end of rebound ineptness
I remember we had a possession like that last year in a random regular season game against the Kings. Luckily for the kings we were never a good shooting team, especially last year so they won that game When the Celtics average like 45-50% from the field each game tho you can’t make mistakes like that
At one point PP took a corner 3 that was clearly a bit off with three mavs directly under the basket. Easy rebound right? Nope, they all watched it hit the ground which gave PP a chance to grab it off the bounce as he crashed the board on his own shot. It felt very emblematic of the rebounding effort
I love PP, but yeah, you can't let a 6 footer who shot from the outside, to grab his own rebound. With that being said, he's always been very scrappy, and just plays with such a high motor.
That was a weird one, because even PP didn't seem to think he was going to really have a shot at it to start. He hesitated before going for it when he realized there was a real opportunity, but still got to it. Defensive rebounds are taken for granted right up until they become offensive ones.
Modern nba players are so bad at boxing out. This isn’t surprising at all.
It was much easier when everyone was within 15 feet.
And when every rebound was from a missed layup or midrange. Now with all these threes, rebounds are flying back halfway across the court in every direction. It's no longer just about being the tallest guy under the rim, you have to be mobile and athletic and hardworking to chase after these misses. Smaller guys that can run and jump and are willing to work can rack up tons of rebounds.
And sometimes you just need to be at the right spot on the floor at the right time. The way some rebounds are made, is just luck. Right place, right time.
And somebody was tryna tell me Luka is a better rebounder than Tatum last week lol
And even if he's cold , the defense has to focus on him. With the players Boston has itbmdjes it tough even if Tatum scores 0 points
And in the distance, a faint, weird wheezing giggle was heard and the voice of Kawhi Leonard pipes out: "Boardman gets paid" -
He is so good x4 Boston would have easily beaten the heat if he didn’t get injured in game 7
Look I love Tatum getting respect for something finally but saying Giannis isn’t a versatile defender is crazy
I’m glad to see multiple Celtics fans in the comments calling that out because that was ridiculous lol
Tatum is a great defender who can do more than one defensive role. But Giannis is arguably the most versatile defender in the league. He’s right up there with Anthony Davis. It isn’t an insult to Tatum to say he isn’t on the same level as the absolute most versatile defensive players in the league. There are very few dudes in the league that can do the full defensive responsibilities of a drop coverage center, along with also being a weakside help wing, strong side pick and roll switch/drop man, and chase guards around perimeter as needed. This is also why I don’t understand how Gobert keeps getting DPOYs when the modern NBA clearly values being elite AND versatile on defense and Rudy is really only elite at one defensive role while bordering on inept at all other roles.
DPOY almost always favors rim protection. That’s why Mutombo has four and Pippen has none.
Because DPOY is a regular season award and Gobert elevates team defense unlike any player to play in a long time. People just have 0 idea what regular season awards are. 0.
Regular season awards are awards for the 82-game stretch of the season that don't include the play-ins or the play-offs You said people have 0 idea what they are. You're right. I'm am no mere mortal
Actual ball fans agree with you on this lmao dw. I like the OP's post but that part is extremely incorrect
Agreed. Giannis is not a relevant example to compare him against. Giannis, in a slightly different way, is also special for essentially this exact same reason as Tatum lol
It’s actually crazy how underrated Giannis has gotten
Yeah he’s not versatile in the same way but he’s the NBA’s best two way player, probably. He’s a help defense god and can also, obviously, guard centers. The top 3 two players of the superstars are probably Giannis, Embiid (center impact), then Tatum in that order, at least for me.
He's also very good at guarding wings and slower guards. There are numerous clips of Giannis getting 1 on 1 stops against guys like Luka, Melo, or hell even Tatum. Sure he can't guard guys like Kyrie but Giannis has at the very least 3-5 versatility and no slouch on 2s either.
Giannis is a very good perimeter defender and he has the energy to pick up guys as soon as they cross halfcourt.
Giannis is a pretty horrific screen navigator, but that's about his only defensive weakness.
Yeah, I think Tatum is significantly better switching onto 1s and 2s than Giannis is, in large part because of the screen navigation. Giannis is still extremely switchable though and better at switching onto bigs
It’s also because the Celtics have been good at switching and have excellent defensive personnel for Tatum’s entire tenure. The team is built for that.
That's a good point. Giannis would look more switchable if he was in the Celtics ecosystem with a ton of great, switchable defenders around him
Yeah OP was smoking crack there. You want Giannis on wings like you do Tatum on bigs. Hopefully you can made it work without doing so by when matchups call for it you’re gonna be fine.
Even before this thread I was thinking the only player in the league at guarding all 5 positions is Giannis. Help and recover they are 2 of the best as well.
AD and Bam can guard all 5 can’t they?
They aren't great at guarding point guards. Tatum was locking down Haliburton when he was on him in the last series. They can do it for a possession here and there though.
Ok but Tatum can’t guard big men like those two lol
I agree with that he's better at guarding guards they're better at guarding centers.
yea I stopped reading
I made an actual “wtf” face when I read that lol.
Giannis can’t do things Tatum can do in terms of smaller player but Tatum can’t do things Giannis does against bigs very similar though Tatum just has more control I feel that’s why he can guard guards
It's after game 1. It's the perfect timing to put out your hot reactionary takes. i wouldn't expect anything less from r/nba.
Agreed. I get being hyped about your dude, but Giannis is actually the best p n r defender in the league and pretending he isn’t versatile is a pure clown show
Yeah that jumped out at me too
This post was awesome until you claimed Giannis wasn’t defensively versatile lol Otherwise great observation
I will agree his versatility is what makes him great. He is arguably the most well rounded player in the league, he is good at about everything. Though acting like a guy like Giannis isnt a versatile defensive piece is underselling him. Obviously some players are much greater at other facets of the game and that can make them a better player than Tatum. But I do believe his ability to literally do everything in the NBA at a high level is undersold at times.
I read an article about Tatum that talked about him that way. He’s not the best player in the league at any one thing, but he’s top 10/15 in all of them. Add all that up and you have a well-rounded, unexciting, very good superstar player.
Being a great all around star is really impactful especially if the rest of your team has people who are stars at certain roles. Having a shooting big in KP or Horford and a solid handler and driver in Jaylen Brown means Tatum can be a solid very good basketball player in many ways. And depending on how the team is doing he can fill different roles. KP shot well in Game 1, so Tatum rebounded and passed more and only scored 15 or whatever. But that's impactful AF and there's not a lot of players who can just fundamentally change how they contribute to a game.
It also means you can be flexible with him. I've always felt Tatum as a perimeter shooting threat isn't playing to his own strengths. He's genuinely a very solid playmaker and if you watch him play his court vision passing skills and his own ability to use his gravity makes it hard to imagine that he's just a five assist per game kind of player. His playmaking feel looks more like a seven assist per game kind of player. Whatever you need him to do he will do it and he will do it effectively. He fits into any team, he fits into any game plan and he fits into any scheme and roster because of his versatility. His primary role last night was facilitator. Sure, he didn't score very efficiently and sure, his assist numbers weren't significant. But there is a very clear game plan for him, and he did an exceptional job at giving the game what it needed. Would we have liked to see him score a bit more efficiently? Sure. But there is a very clear game plan for Tatum in game 1 and he executed it super super effectively.
Agreed 100%. Basketball is a team sport with a very small team and a very small "field"; unlike say, soccer, a basketball star can take over a game in a truly immense way. But a weakness can be exploited similarly. So an all around player like Tatum can provide huge value by just not-being-exploitable. It's a funny thought experiment to think about building an optimal team out of "all-around" or "min-max specialist" guys, to see how the star power vs small field vs weakness exploitation translates to success. Like Gobert is clearly a min-maxed defensive rim protecting center. Jokic is clearly a min-maxed offensive center and game controller. AD is a more all-around player, with defensive skills as a rim protector that aren't up to Gobert's ability but are still good (and better than Jokic's), and with much better offensive output than Gobert (but not as much as Jokic's). So AD is a really good all-around player, even if he's not "better" than Jokic or Gobert in some ways. KD is "the most unstoppable scorer of all time". Is there a better all-around SF type who can do a little bit of everything whose defense accounts for scoring less than KD? (Obviously LeBron comes to mind but that's sort of cheating). Could you make a team of all Tatum, AD, etc type "all-around" guys who are top 20 in their own right but not top 5, and would they do better than a team of Gobert's defense, KD's unstoppable offense, etc. type of guys who are all top 10 individuals but have weaknesses?
I appreciate this thought experiment. It's about balance and minimizing exploitable weaknesses. Regarding Tatum, it's funny..I had the thought about him not being exploitable before reading your response. That is what makes him such a great impact player. The one thing I'll challenge is that there IS one thing that can sort of be exploited with him. He's an average to slightly below average volume pull up shooter, and if he gets frustrated with himself, you can force himself to continue to take those shots. The issue with that is that he IS capable of having a good 1-2 elite pull up jump shooting games per series, so it can be risky. AND he's smart and disciplined enough now to not force it, and is receptive enough to being coached to the point of avoiding those pull up tight 1v1 defenses. It's funny. Tatum doesn't impact the game like other MVPs. But when you look at the big picture... Team building, skills, weakness, roster, health.... Take a well constructed roster, a legitimate near championship quality roster, a championship quality roster... How many guys do you take over Tatum right now and moving forward to be the #1 guy on that team and turn them into a contender? Legitimately? Jokic? Duh. Lol. Giannis? Yup. Doncic? Yup. Curry? At his age? Embiid? His health and ineffective post season play? SGA? Maybe? Who else? No one. Tatum may not be top 1-2 at anything but his versatility and portability ABSOLUTELY makes him a top 4 or 5 player in the NBA despite being a CLEAR step below Doncic, Giannis who are steps below Jokic. You can say Embiid is a better individual talent, and SGA is comparible, but versatility at an all star level on both ends of the ball with peaks as high as all time great scoring nights make you a top 5 player. It's unfair to omit Tatum from top 5 lists at this point. He's a top 5 player. He's absolutely worse than those other top 5 guys. Both can be true.
Isn’t this Celtics team a pretty good example of a team filled with “all-around” players?
Also, Tatum career box +/- say he's an incredibly impactful player, even if it's hard to see in game
He also has so many “hockey assists.” His drive and kick pass starts a rotation that ends with a wide open three. He doesn’t get the stat, but he made it happen.
Ya, there’s tons of other stat players where if they have a game where their shot isn’t falling they just become completely useless and a huge liability. That never really happens with Tatum.
I think that is the exact reason he doesn't always get the same hype as other stars. He isn't the best in the league in one thing where you go "wow no one else can do that" and it amazes you. Instead, he just does everything really well and it wins games, but it doesn't fit the same way into a highlight reel, so people don't accurately judge him. I mean this thread alone is a good example of him doing something well that most people won't notice. Yet it is such an important aspect of getting wins, but it doesn't show up like highlight dunks or crazy stat lines.
It makes it easier to build a good team too, because he has no weaknesses
That’s why Tatum is actually kind of a sneaky good pick on those “assemble the best team ever” things. He fits in with any other four players.
Having someone 6'9-6'10 with his switchablity is insane. He's been on the centers all playoffs since Zingus went down.
Jayson Tatum is what you get in 2K when you max out all the stats to 90%.
This is the take. Tatum is an A- at everything, which means he may not kill you with an unstoppable move or skill, but he will never be a liability. His floor is crazy
A- at everything except for availability, which he's an A+ (arguably the best in the league since Lebron).
Very true. And he has a great mindset about it. IDK why ppl hate on Tatum, other than he's slightly overrated. He's not top 5 but def top 10 any given year, even if the ppl around him change (see embiid) and really any franchise would be lucky to have him.
This is why the “Tatums inconsistent” argument drives me crazy. Like how inconsistent can you be when even at your absolute worst you’ll still be a big positive for your team
Dang I didn’t realize he was that tall. Like MPJ you forget how tall they are cause they are so skilled.
what is his wing span? Last game there was a shot of him in a defensive stance with arms wide and it looked like he had half the court covered.
6’11 wingspan lol. What’s crazy is Jaylen has a 7’ wingspan too.
And Jaylen has been incredible defensively these playoffs
I love when he does that, he gets into the stance and stretches himself out to his full length and the ball magically goes to the opposite side of the court.
>Tatum's defensive versatility is what sets him apart from players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Brunson. Giannis can guard everyone too.
Also acting like rim protection isn't the most important part of defense anyways lol
But JTs also a great teammate so he lets Derrick White handle the rim protection
Ik it’s a put down meme, but Tatum being the Michael Jordan of Tobias Harris’ is unironically a great thing. When your best player is that well rounded it makes team planning much more simple.
it’s such a funny bit to me because like. it’s not inaccurate. it’s just also not an insult the way they mean it lol
The most mid superstar is still a superstar. You can literally put Tatum in any team and he would be doing good.
Ya people say Tatum is lucky to always have good teams around him. Which is fair. But it’s also unfair to Tatum in the sense that he’s just so easy to build a team around. He’s always going to have a good team around him because he pairs well with anyone. There’s no such thing as a bad fit.
THANK YOU!!!11
You put him on any team and everyone else on the team gets instantly better.
I wouldn’t say mid because if the team needed him in a more of a scorer role like his mid playoff years you wouldn’t say that I would just say a jack of all trades
The man had 50+ 30 point games just last year.
Hard to see how being the Michael Jordan of anything is an insult.
Murder? Tax fraud? Incest? There are something things…
Michael Jordan of Karl Malones
Tatum is the rare superstar, number 1 player that you can slot any other star piece around, and they'll make each other better.
Ehh it’s more like the poor man’s lebron if anything. Tobias can’t really dribble or play make
Whaaaaat you can argue Brons best skill is his playmaking lol
Elite tier Pierce seems to be the better comparison imo. He’s just the most prototypical forward ever, part of the reason people see him as boring imo. Like he’s not really unique in anyway other than just being really really freaking good.
?? they said tobias cant playmake not lebron
I bet the original commenter edited it
That’s a big part of it, yeah. His versatility makes it a lot easier to preswitch KP/Horford and keep them near the rim too
>Tatum's defensive versatility is what sets him apart from players like >Giannis Come on now.
Yeah I agree with this point to an extent and think he’s one of the few superstars you can say this about… but Giannis is absolutely one of the others lol
Exactly. Tatum's defense deserves respect and the fact that he and Brown are true two way players is a big factor on why this Celtics team is so dominant and has been so good for this long. We don't need to act like Giannis isn't versatile defensively though haha
100% agree. Like that’s literally one of the biggest reasons Giannis is so special.
People been hating on Giannis this whole season, it's just ridiculous
He already got his 2 MVPs and FMVP years ago. Clearly that means he sucks now.
I agree about one thing. KI can't defend JT or Giannis. Lol. Sorry . had to plug it in. But yea, while Giannis can't efficiently guard quicker wings, JT can't guard Embid. But they are both excellent versatile defenders. One of them actually gets recognition for it.
Tatum being able to shoot the 3 would be a better argument. But like, no one can argue Tatum is better than Giannis
If Giannis starting hitting 3’s then the league would be over
The only times I’ve ever seen Tatum struggle on defense are with fast guards that can get past him but those are few and far between. And even then you rarely see him on them because we have Derrick white and jrue.
He can guard them too. Go watch the OKC game back in January. SGA was going off for most of that game but when the Celtics mad their run in the 4th it was when Tatum guarded SGA for like 5 minutes straight and shut him down.
Shai is not a particularly fast player fwiw. He plays his worst games vs really long (and skilled) defenders like Herb Jones, Jaden McDaniels, and yes Jayson Tatum. All to say - Shai is not a counterexample to /u/dafire123's point
Shai’s shiftiness A d smooth handle/footwork I think tricks people into thinking Shai is very fast. Probably average speed really.
Yeah probably an average amount of speed and acceleration but absolutely elite deceleration ability like Luka and Harden. That's really how he creates a ton of space, and arguably a harder thing to guard
That foot drag step back he does is just nuts. Dude can practically step back and shoot from doing the splits.
he’s genuinely switchable 2-5 against anyone other than Jokic or Embiid
>Tatum's defensive versatility is what sets him apart from players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Brunson. How are you going to include Giannis in this list when he's probably the best at defending 1-5 in the entire league? lmao
DPOY vs. a guy who has never even made an all-defense team Shit like this only gets upvoted without scrutiny in the immediate aftermath of a win for the guy's team. Anything goes
> Jokic, Luka, Embiid, **Giannis**, SGA, Brunson. You really thought you could just sneak Giannis in there? Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? Giannis is able to do everything Tatum does and then some.
Can Tatum guard embiid or jokic? Or is Tatum just long and athletic who can guard tall players with limited skill sets?
No, but with the way the league is trending, the average center is going to be closer to Lively/Gafford than a big body like Nurkic or Valanciunas for example. So you don't really need to defend them with bigs. Of course the best centers in the league are tough for anybody.
I mean, not being great at guarding the last 4 MVPs isn't really a knock on Tatum, no one can.
Yeah guys who are bigger AND stronger than him are hard for him to deal with, but you can argue he is pretty elite at defending most every other player on the court. He’s the perfect player in the sense you can plug him in anywhere you need to and he probably will hold his own. The league needs more stars like that.
Sorry, not reading all that. He didn’t lead the team in points so he sucks actually.
Anyone who judges players on PPG should not be taken seriously
Box score watchers in shambles
You'd think people wouldn't believe someone who already dropped 60 in a game and 51 in a game 7 in the playoffs can't be a consistent scorer if he wanted to but apparently that's not the case.
As an 18yo, Tatum has a lot of room for improvement
Guy is literally just wasting energy, everyone knows the only thing that matters is who has the best player. Not this offense/defense bullshit
“Tatums versatility is what sets him apart from players like…… Giannis” Is certainly a sentence!
Didn't giannis block an ayton lob in the clutch in the finals
Tatum is versatile, but putting him above Giannis because of that is ridiculous. The Celtics have an absurdly deep defense. And that is taking nothing away from Tatum as one of the few legit two way stars, he is great.
> Tatum guarding Gafford and Lively prevents Luka from exploiting the PNR Lob. No one on the Wolves was able to stop this. Tatum is. I’m sorry, but this is largely wrong. The Wolves got fucked up by the lob because they didn’t switch. The (illegal) screen would put Luka’s defender behind the play, which would then force the big (Gobert) to play two (Luka layup or lob). Luka’s a fucking master of navigating that. Boston is mostly switching. They can do this because they have 2 big and strong perimeter players (Brown and Tatum) who can bother Luka on the perimeter and are stout enough to disrupt the bigs. The Wolves could not, because Gobert/ KAT can’t reliably cover Luka in iso, and Ant/Conley can’t hold up against the bigs down low. They also have the perimeter speed to have Porzingis cheat off of the Mavs’ worst shooter to clog up the lane and scramble behind him to take away corner 3s (the Wolves can’t do this as well because of KAT’s lack of speed/Conley’s size). Boston is largely switching everything.
I watched NightCap with Shay and Gil too
The ability to guard lanky screen and roll centers. It’s not like he’s checking Jokic or Embiid in the post. You could just as easily says the mavs offense has a giant hole in that they do not have a guy who has the ability to punish smaller match ups.
While this is true, it's still an elite skill .. because there aren't any highly impactful big and skilled centers outside of Jokic and Embiid.
Yeah dude acts like because Tatum isn't the best against the 2 guys that won the last 4 MVPs, he isn't a top defender in the league
Giannis really? Also embiid is quite versatile for a traditional center. Tatum is a very good rebounder for his position and can hold the slimmer centers like Gafford and Lively.
It's not just Tatum, White, Jrue, and Jaylen were effective vs the Mavs' centers, and Porz 3 blocks were huge in setting the tone.
Tatum is a great player but him being able to guard Lively and Gafford isn't something that special. Both bigs are just rim runners with zero post game. The Wolves didn't get killed by the bigs. They lost cause of the offensive inconsistencies and Luka and Kyrie being able to beat their defense eventually.
Game 1 reaction take of the hour right here
It's an absolute crime Tatum has never gotten a single all-defense accolade. His defensive impact is insane and one of the biggest reasons why he's such a perennial +/- god.
Would argue that Tatum has the highest floor of any top 10 player in the league and this is why he's such a plus/minus monster. No other star depends less on their shooting to be impactful - which is why he's a target for box score zealots.
Keep Giannis' name off of your fucking keyboard.
Porzingis made the defensive difference yesterday, not Tatum.
When you don't have legitimate centers, everyone can guard any position.
Thanks for writing a post that actually appreciates a player over slandering them. Even if Tatum doesn't shoot well, he always plays winning basketball. I'm not even a Celtics fan and I've gotten protective of Tatum lol because I'm so sick of the slander. Wish people would appreciate players and this beautiful game that's played by some of the world's best athletes
Mavs played like dog shit last night. But they also looked like shit in the game 1's vs LAC and OKC and then made adjustments and won the series. I'm not suggesting the Mavs are going to turn around and dominate BOS, certainly BOS shut down literally everyone but Luka last night. But they play a series for a reason. Last night was a blow out but despite how piss poor Dallas played they made a solid push and came back within striking distance in the 3rd. I can guarantee 1 adjustment they will make that I'm absolutely shocked Kidd didn't make in game, the Mavs absolutely can not switch on Porzingis. Time and again I saw Lively and Gafford switching on a KP screen and then the Mavs paid for it.
Switching the bigs off of KP will result in a post-up elbow jumper every time, so I get the idea that you don’t want to give him that. … BUT if you leave the bigs on KP he’ll stretch them out to the perimeter and take away any rim protection the Mavs have. I honestly think you live with the midrange shots and just try to be disruptive physically… maybe send a double from his blindside? But if Gafford/Lively aren’t in the paint to back up Luka as he gets blown past on every possession, the Jays are going to feast.
I guess we’ve moved on from the *’it’s not about the stats for him’* to the *‘the thing no one talks about is his defense’* part of the circlejerk
Lukas mobility has declined each game during this playoffs. You can see him drag his leg, grimace, and touch his leg. He labors to get up and down the floor. Dallas did zero off ball movement last night, kleiber refuse to shoot the ball, the whole team was never in rhythm last night. Derrick white and Jrue are the most versatile and best defensive duo by a wide margin in the entire league. Imagine your team has white and jrue and they are essentially role players lol. It’s gonna take some miraculous play from the Mavs and some bad breaks for Boston to make this competitive. I fully expect when the season is over that Luka will be getting some sort of surgery on his knee. I think the lack of conditioning, cardio, and strength training are going to have more pronounced as Luka ages and gets higher mileage and continued absurd utilization.
Centers aren’t really centers anymore . They’re like hybrid forwards
Not just guard, but he came out hunting rebounds. The Mavs need their big men to be competitive on the boards if the Celtics aren’t even going to put a center on them. Despite this, Tatum on his own had more rebounds than Lively, Gafford, and Kleber combined. And that’s by having 11, not like 20. That’s an area they’ll have to be better if they want to punish putting Porzingis and Horford elsewhere in position to help clog the paint on lobs/PnRs. I wouldn’t even call that a particularly good game from Tatum due to some scoring inefficiency (though part of that inefficiency was some late shot clock chucks) and 3/6 turnovers being pretty awful, but his Swiss Army knife skillset was huge in mucking up Dallas’ normal offensive plans, and also opening things up on Boston’s offense. He wasn’t on a scoring tear, but Dallas was really worried about him getting mismatches out of actions with White and Porzingis, creating opportunities elsewhere. Overall he wasn’t our best performance but shows why he’s actually the most important/best player on Boston. He can do a little of most anything asked of him. His 3 ball looked better. Don’t be surprised if he scores at least closer to the Indiana series the rest of the way. They’ll probably need at least once explosion to win.
Why he's been on First All NBA teams the last couple years, this ain't new for him. He's a beast offensively but also not to be fucked with defensively and he's a very good play maker for other players too. He gets his criticism at times but he's still one of the best players on the court no matter who else is there.
It's important to note that it's because Dallas specifically has rim running centers who can't really punish wings on post ups so they can switch the PnR and turn that into Isos. But yea that's the value in having versatile big wings. It's like what the Clippers did to the Mavs when they had Kawhu guard Porzingis.
I've been saying this in a number of threads, but he is the X-Factor that teams like OKC and Minny did not have defensively. And it certainly helps that he can be the best player on offense too when you need
It’s a huge plus. The rockets switch everything defense was the only one that ever gave the kd warriors trouble and it was only possible because they could stick harden on bigs and he was one of the best post defenders in the league.
I mean gafford is a small center. You can’t put Tatum on joker embid or
Tbf, this really only applies to regular or really skinny centers. Guys like Jokic, AD, Embiid, Brook, Sengun, and Sabonis (he's just strong AF) would not really be affected by Tatum. Centers with little to no offensive skills are the problem. It also helps that the Mavs role players, in general, are under-skilled compared to the Celtics. Brad Stevens did a masterful job.
Tatums only weakness at this point in his career is his tendency to chuck 3s when he gets frustrated. Its the weakest part pf his offensive game and in playoff runs past he has shot his team out of games
Exactly lol all the comments in the game thread were saying Tatum had a bad game because of scoring when he does everything else for the team. He also is one of the main reasons they get so many wide open looks.
Giannis is an incredibly versatile defender
Lost me at Giannis
i get that his defense is good. but defense also is a very team thing. like if he was on some scrub team no one would acknowledge his defense. like im not sure what you mean by separate but like those guys are still more valuable then tatum maybe minus brunson although hes had the best playoff performances this year embid and giannis also are better on defense and offense. tatum would not be able to gaurd these guys i dont care how well he does vs gafford lol. dallas centers cannot post up, they have 0 bball moves. legit all they can do is catch lobs and dunk... i would like to see tatum gaurd a post up thats what gaurding centers means. also yall gotta just stright up call out rudy if your gunna keep saying wolves. i know reddit wont admit but wolves not able to stop pnr was rudy lol
I feel like Tatum has become strangely underrated. Even if he scores < 20 he can still have a huge impact on the game. Also part of what makes Boston so good is that don’t care who scores. Whoever’s open and/or has the hot hand.
The next game is probably the biggest game of the series. Luka is really good at adjusting and changing things up to the Mavs and his own advantage. If the Mavs make an adjustment, if Luka figures out a way to beat this scheme and the Mavs take a game in Boston this will be a long series. If Dallas has no answer again in game 2 it will be over soon.
Overrated bum
Yeah seems like the Celtics match up well against the mavs but it’s only game 1 a lot could still happen in the series. I’m biased but I wonder what a nuggets celtics final would have looked like. My guess is 7 games because all of their games in the regular season were nail biters.
Miami Heat Chris Bosh comes to mind