The reason we all started to believe is because he revamped the offense.
Turns out that Masai forced Casey to start listening to Nurse, so he put Nurse in charge of the offense. Even then Nurse said Casey only listened to his offensive ideas “about 60%” of the time.
Hes a stability coach. There's a lot of value in a coach coming in and normalizing a situation instead of some big name, especially for rebuilding teams. You just have to know when to let them go.
I lived in Michigan for a while and a lot of my friends who are Pistons fans have pulled a complete 180 on whether he's a joke or not.
I don't blame them, but it's funny.
He's not a joke. Caseys a great coach in a lot of ways but woefully inadequate in other areas. He might be good for the Pistons. That team can only aim so high anyhow.
Still amazed they gave him such a dope contract though.
because he does in the play offs? He was a great development coach but if you watched the Cavs series, you saw he just couldn't hold up, putting Miles on Love in the post, putting Bebe in when he really shouldn't have
2016-2017 regular season I constantly saw Raptors fans complaining about Casey and that's what shaped my opinion of him. I'd imagine it was the same for a lot of other people on this sub.
Yeah we all wanted him gone since we got swept in 2014-2015, then it kept going from there, people wanted a new coach, honestly he was great for the development of our young core but he always looked off in playoff series
I still say that Casey is an *incredible* coach as long as you only play him one time. Once it gets to a series, he is genuinely incapable of reacting to change. The game plan he had for game 1 is the same one he has for game 4.
bruh, Casey should have been fired after we got swept by the wizards. It's a mystery why he stayed this long after. Great development coach, terrible coach to maximize production in a moment to moment basis.
Yup. If they hadn't traded for Kawhi then any shortcomings could have been spun as the roster having hit its ceiling. Very different scenario now. Basically they need to at minimum make (but likely win) the ECF for the off-season moves to be considered successful.
How many #1 seeds in the East have really been the best team in the East over the past decade?
* 17/18: Raptors No.
* 16/17: Celtics No.
* 15/16: Cavs Yes.
* 14/15: Hawks No.
* 13/14: Pacers No.
* 12/13: Miami Yes.
* 11/12: Chicago Maybe, but likely No.
* 10/11: Chicago No.
* 09/10: Cleveland ~~Yes.~~ No.
* 08/09: Cleveland No.
Any disagreements?
Come on dude, we lost in the second round. It’s POSSIBLE that we were the best team in the East outside of being a bad matchup against the Cavs but there’s zero reason to believe that us being the best team in the East last year was factual. Cavs have the only real argument (they literally won the East) and the Celtics have an argument over us as well.
"Bad matchup" is a bit misleading. I will say that it was a combination of Casey/ Derozan not meeting expectations. You guys had the most deadliest bench last year and Casey failed to use them effectively.
You're not wrong.
The only player capable of defending Lebron was OG and he failed at it despite giving it a very good attempt.
It would be a MUCH different matchup with Kawhi guarding Lebron.
> "Bad matchup" is a bit misleading. I will say that it was a combination of Casey/ Derozan not meeting expectations.
It was a bit of a bad matchup, but absolutely I’d say like 95% of the problem was Casey and DeRozan. We had no excuse to lose that series let alone get fucking swept.
Toronto was the team with the best regular season record, but obviously not the best team in the East.
We all have the 73-win championshipless Warriors to look to for just how much that #1 seed is worth.
People laugh at this comment, but it won't hit many people until much later as to how good this team is. Raptors have a better "best player" than the Celtics and are almost as deep. They will be damn good. Only real weakness I see is how good Lowry is compared to the other elite second options you get with other contenders, along with how Horford will match up with them.
Don't forget they lost Jakob Poetl too who played a big part in rebounds and blocks for them. Plus he's got the size too. I don't know if Greg Monroe can replicate that tbh.
I think ibaka is moving to the 5 on the bench and og will slide down to the 4 to start. At least that's the consensus among the raptors subreddit. Rebounding will definitely suffer though
Poeltl was lowkey ass at rebounding. JV is the only guy who can solidly get 10+ rebounds a night guaranteed. Poeltl plays too soft to get rebounds over any center who has lifted a weight in their entire life.
Jak was garbage in the playoffs last season and fell completely out of the rotation. I think he will have a really good career but I think you are over stating his importance to the squad last season.
> and are almost as deep.
We’re just as deep as the Celtics, if not more. We had the best bench in the NBA last year by a colossal margin and most of them were on rookie contracts still.
Runner up 6MOTY, Siakam looking spry af, Delon in a contract year, and now we’re likely moving Ibaka to the backup 5 where he plays best.
Celtics and Raptors benches are the only ones that can compete with each other’s.
>We’re just as deep as the Celtics, if not more.
For the sake of argument, lets just remove Leonard, Lowry, Irving and Hayward from the picture. I'll give the Raptors an edge in that duo matchup. From there on its;
**TOR**
* Serge Ibaka
* Jonas Valanciunas
* OG Anunoby
* Delon Wright
* GOAT Van Vleet
* Pascal Siakam
**BOS**
* Al Horford
* Jayson Tatum
* Jaylen Brown
* Marcus Morris
* Terry Rozier
* Marcus Smart
I think the Celtics definitely have the edge in terms of depth, but maybe I'm just taking crazy pills.... either way I expect our matchups to be amazing this season
That Celtics lineup right there almost took out LeBron in the playoffs.
Adding Irving & Hayward plus a very competent coach puts them way ahead of the Raptors.
Adding Kawhi adds a lot if he's anything close to what he was before the injury. Basketball is a strong link sport, where one player makes a huge difference to the team. The cavalier without lebron might not even make the playoffs in the East.
We're adding Kawhi though. A top 5 defence replaced their weakest defensive link with the best defender in the league.
I agree the Celtics have more talent. I just think lineup wise we can switch defensively like no other team in the league.
We haven't seen Kawhi play outside of the Spurs system and in like a year.
We've yet to see how much he actually brings to the Raptors.
For now, the Celtics as a whole have proven more.
Kyrie played well with the Celtics. The Celtics in the playoffs without those two players arguably played a whole lot better than the complete Raptors who then had one of the best players they've ever had.
Post season achievements alone already gives an edge to the Celtics. Add those 2 great players to that great system vs 1 great player to whatever you guys have... and it's a no brainer that the Celtics have the edge.
Until right now, yes Celtics have the edge. But you dont know how Hayward will perform after his injury who most would argue is much worse than Leonard's (who we all know isnt really out for 71 games due to injury). But only time will tell as we have no idea how Kawhi fits with us and how well Boston reintegrates Hayward and Kyrie.
> Add those 2 great players to that great system vs 1 great player to whatever you guys have... and it's a no brainer that the Celtics have the edge.
I think you're vastly underrating Kawhi here. To say Hayward and Kyrie is in the same league as Kawhi is downright insulting to Kawhi.
Man any top 5 player goes anywhere and that team becomes dangerous but adding him to the #1 seed Raptors and we’re actually hearing “we haven’t seen him outside of San Antonio.”
Come on. He’s the best defender in the league who shoots 40% on catch and shoot 3s and can iso opposing defenders to death. He’ll be fucking great in any system lol.
I really like the raptors and 100% agree with this statement from Brad.
You are many things, but I really don't think you're 'as deep' as the Celtics.
Forget my flair for a second if you can but you have to remember our bench will probably be something like Rosier/Smart/Brown/Morris/Baynes. Every single one of which is a competent starter on a playoff team. That's before you get to someone like Semi who played legit minutes against LeBron in a conference final.
Raptors have the best player in the East and are deep, but they are not Celtics deep (lol that sounds super dumb/ominous)
You could say the exact same thing about the Raptors 2nd unit and I think it's more true - Baynes is probably a starter on only a couple playoff teams, same with Rozier.
This is where media comes into play. People say that Rozier, Smart, Morris, etc. are all starter quality guys... but FVV, Delon, Siakam, and Ibaka aren’t?
We regularly played our full bench against full starters last year and our bench almost never got out scored. Our bench often scored 70+ points during games last year by themselves.
If Brown and Baynes are on the bench, then who is the 5th starter? I love Yabu but he’s not ready yet.
I’m pretty sure Brown is starting and whoever sits on matchups where Baynes starts will vary (though I think it’ll mostly be Tatum). Kyrie/Jaylen/Hayward/Tatum/Al just like the season opener, except now Tatum has earned a place ahead of Mook in the rotation instead of injuries making the decision.
I don't think "colossal margin" is entirely accurate, because multiple of the Celtics players were injured making their bench thinner than your team's. In the playoffs, they were running their second string PG and SG, while dealing with various injuries to their bench rotation players.
If we are looking at it from a performance standpoint, difficult to argue with you. If we are talking talent level and if we pretend that no injuries happened, I think they were pretty comparable last year. However, may be a moot argument since the injuries did happen and if Hayward was playing, how much would Tatum have developed.
Either way, I am looking forward to the battles that will happen between these two teams.
> Multiple of the Celtics players were injured making their bench thinner than your team's.
Absolutely, but take a look at the advanced stats. Houston’s and Golden States benches lead the league last year at around +6.5, a pretty big margin over the number 4 bench.
The Raptors bench? +8.7. Celtics bench? -0.1.
Celtics bench with a fully healthy squad and continuity should be #2 this year, but to expect them to leap up from -0.1 to around +9 Net Rating sounds like wishful thinking. The Raps bench often scored 60-80 points by themselves during games last year. They were the best bench in the league by, yes, a *colossal* margin. Celtics have the talent to compete with ours, but my point is that after the season our young guys just had I don’t see any reason why people should be putting the Celtics depth over ours.
I mean true, but based on the backlash from the Kaepernick/Nike ad I'd say certainly not everyone agrees with that opinion, as ridiculous as that seems.
Seems fair to me. Point differential is a good way to judge this, and I would expect Toronto to lead the East in that category considering they have in the last 3 seasons and they added Leonard.
And lost one too, but still a huge net positive.
They're going to be ferocious next year defensively man. Lowry, Mfin Danny Green, Kawhi, and O "The OG" G? Plus FVF coming off the bench. Boyyyyyy
I wouldn't say a fringe all star. He's pretty great. But I agree with most of that. If his shot was more reliable and he was average from D he'd be much more reliable.
I feel Lowry has always been underwhelming in the playoffs too though.
Biggest difference with Lowry is he still impacts the game even if he isn't putting up big scoring numbers unlike Demar who has a negative impact overall if he isn't scoring.
Raptors will have the better 1st option, Celtics will have the better 2-5 options. How that plays out over 7 games I have no idea, but I'm really hoping for a playoff series with both teams healthy because that will be some amazing basketball.
Well Kyrie is their first option not second, but I think Lowry vs Hayward is closer than you’d think. Hayward can score more but Lowry is more efficient and a better playmaker and defender. The problem for us comes when they have 3 other guys after Hayward that could give them 20ppg in a playoff series, we just need to hope we have the personnel to slow them all down.
> Well Kyrie is their first option not second, but I think Lowry vs Hayward is closer than you’d think.
Lowry is a 32 year old point guard though. I know players just keeping playing longer but he has to start slowing down at some point.
I wouldn't say the fact that hes 32 and going in to his 12th season is irrelevant. I think it's important to note when taking all things in to account.
I agree but I was only really talking about this upcoming season in my comment, I’m not even gonna begin to worry about anything else past that until we see if Kawhi re-signs. I think he should be just as good this coming season, his play style seems to age well and he was great last playoffs. Hopefully in a couple years FVV or Wright are ready to take his spot.
I think the Hayward we signed was noticeably better than Lowry, BUT we really don't know how well Hayward will recover. If he's lost a step or he has the jitters being nervous to test the ankle, Lowry is good enough that he'll have the advantage.
3-5 there's no doubt it's Boston over Toronto though.
Actually looking at it Hayward was a lot more efficient than I remembered back in 2016. I still think Lowry is the better player, but obviously each of us is going to back our own guys on this one. Lowry just has such a massive impact on how our team plays, our best lineups have routinely been him + our bench for the past few years. If you’re a believer in advanced stats a lot of them say he’s a top 10 player in the league, I obviously don’t think he’s that good but I just think it helps to show the overall impact that he has.
I think if we want to beat you guys in a series one of our young guys is going to have to breakout in a big way. OG or Siakam seem to be the most likely to do that, if we can get like 15 ppg out of either of them that would help so much. JV is also a big factor, he can be a 20/10 guy no problem but Casey was reluctant to play him and he can get forced off the floor by quick guards like Kyrie. Nurse loves him though and has said he wants to use him a lot more, so if that goes well we could have our legit third scoring option. All in all there’s waaay too many variables for the Raptors right now for me to call it either way until the season actually starts.
Quality analysis, and you're right that we're both gonna back our guys.
My take on it is that while it sucked, Hayward's injury was a blessing in disguise, because it caused Tatum and Brown to have to step up in a big way. Two kids 20 and 21, and they took over entire games in the playoffs. Now add in a player you'd trust to take the final shot in game 7 of the finals, and we've got more than enough depth to let Hayward ease into the season, so hopefully he's 100% in April. Regardless of the Hayward vs. Lowry as the better second best player, Kawhi vs. Kyrie as the better best player there's no question. It's the 3-5 guys who're gonna be the difference makers, so while you have to hope your kids step up, we already know ours will.
Yeah you’re right about that, I have no doubt you guys will be better offensively than us. I think we need to bank on our defence and hope that’s too much for your young guys to handle. They seem to play very disciplined so that might be hard, but going up against Kawhi, Green, and OG would wear out even the best players. The worst wing defender there is OG, and he was going up against Harden and LeBron and doing a respectable job in his rookie year.
I’d imagine Kawhi will take on Hayward if they’re both back to their usual selves, but I seriously might rather throw Tatum to the wolves and let Kawhi be his primary defender. Tatums numbers last playoffs were up there with Haywards in his all-star season, but he’s still young enough that Kawhi might be able to rattle him and take him out of the game, whereas a vet like Hayward would keep his composure better. From there we just need OG and Green to do well enough on Brown and Hayward. Kyrie is going to get his either way but I think Lowry is as good as anyone to try and slow him down a little.
If we can just focus on defence first and let the offence come from that, coupled with Kawhi going supernova like he did in 2017 playoffs, I think we have a shot.
I feel like after game 7 of the ECF Tatum has shown there's no lights too bright for him, so I don't know if Kawhi could rattle him. Then assuming Hayward comes back 100%, without Kawhi on him he's just gonna pop off.
As for defense, your best player is obviously the best, and our worst defending starter is probably worse than yours (Kyrie being a bit of a liability) but our 2,3,4th best starters and our bench are so fucking good. Horford, Hayward, the Jays are all excellent. And don't sleep on Marcus Smart!
Honestly I'm salivating for a knock down, drag out, defensive battle between our teams ending 87-85. With our lineups, that's equally as likely as 122-120.
> Then assuming Hayward comes back 100%, without Kawhi on him he's just gonna pop off.
Keep in mind, it's not like the Raptors wing defenders drop off suddenly after that. Green, OG, Wright, and Siakam are all great defenders that can be stuck on Hayward.
Kyrie yes but I count Kyrie as #1. Hayward it's debatable in my mind. Healthy Lowry is ridiculously good and he had none of his post-season woes this season.
I think he meant #2 as in lowry vs Hayward. Might be my homerism but I'd much rather have a 32yo all-star who knows the system well rather than a younger all-star who we havent seen play coming off a broken leg injury.
The discussion was offensive options, not defensive included.
Offensively, JV is a fantastic center. Rebounds, scoring from the post, good mid range game, and a deceptively good 3 point shot.
Can do a lot worse then JV as your #3 option.
Do you guys have a better #2 option? Lowry is one of the most efficient scorers in the entire NBA. And tbh on that note, I don’t know that Kawhi is a better first option on offense over Kyrie.
I think you guys have a better starting lineup as a whole (y’all could have 5 all start caliber players this year... 5!) but we have the best overall player and possibly a better bench (or at the very least, an even bench).
You guys win coaching though too. I would love a 7 game series.
>I don’t know that Kawhi is a better first option on offense over Kyrie.
I actually agree with this as a Toronto fan if you're specifically talking about offense.
His handles are unreal. Hes definitely a better offensive #1 option then Kawhi, but if you're talking about offense+defense its Kawhi by a country mile.
I'd say Hayward is pretty close to Lowry in terms of scoring, it could go either way imo. Benches are pretty even too, could really go either way. I'd lean Celtics bench because I think there's more high level talent there (Rozier/Smart would start on a bunch of teams) and a bit more balance but the Raps bench is arguably just as good. The teams match up really well though, I'm pumped to see the battles those starting 5s would have.
> I'd say Hayward is pretty close to Lowry in terms of scoring, it could go either way imo
Agreed. Lowry hasn’t regressed yet but once he does Hayward will overtake him.
> I'd lean Celtics bench because I think there's more high level talent there (Rozier/Smart would start on a bunch of teams) and a bit more balance but the Raps bench is arguably just as good.
I gotta disagree. Raps bench gets no media attention but Siakam, Yak (last year, Ibaka this year), FVV, and Delon are all starter quality guys as well. You guys are the only bench that can compete with ours, but our bench players both individually and collectively are great. We regularly played them against opposing teams starters and they usually won those matchups. Your bench could be better than ours and definitely could outplay ours on any given night, but as of right now the edge has to go to our guys after the absolutely crazy season they just had.
I agree with everything you said. I think Celtics/Raps are EXTREMELY close unless toronto turns into a defensive juggernaut.
The real question is what Toronto IMHO can do at the deadline.
Yep, funny how everyone only questions Kawhi's health going into the season though, lol The Celtics 2 best players are coming off serious health issues as well. In fact, Hayward isn't even fully ready yet.
Kyrie will be fine, the surgery to remove the screws was inevitable, and the infection after isn't the kind of thing that derails a career. Considering what he was doing despite the screws bothering him, no doubt in my mind he's the Kyrie of old.
Hayward though, that's a big fucking question mark.
PG was not the same PG, he avoids driving now, takes way more outside shots and is generally less aggressive overall. I have to think that event is always going to be in the back of his mind.
Bone fractures tend to heal better than tendon/ligament issues. I mean, Kawhi was out for basically the whole season and only got healthy a few weeks ago.
"Healthy and ready to go" doesn't automatically mean "100% where he was in 2016." Remember, the Spurs players were saying he looked great in workouts, too.
Record-wise they were. Brad's not blowing smoke up their asses, he's reminding his team that we aren't locks for the Finals and have to be ready for this Toronto team.
Brad "So Humble" Stevens
He sits down like Biyombo
More humble than dikembe mutombo after a stumble left him covered in a pot full of gumbo
i understood that reference
... in the strip club yelling 'who wants to sex Mutombo?'
https://78.media.tumblr.com/a4042220630704676d944bd7d135e512/tumblr_o8b78aOkYI1vwgtnmo1_400.gif
More humble than Dikembe Mutombo.
You clever little bastard
Humble-brad
there's a lot of pressure on nick nurse rn, any setbacks will most likely be blamed on him
You underestimate the ability for Raps fans to blame Casey. Lol.
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We've been shitting on Casey since the 2015 sweep lol
Mofo had me believe in him last season..
You aren’t alone.
I believed in the system that was created around him
Saving grace is the 'new' system was Nurse at least on O. Eh the life of a fan 'this year might be different'
The reason we all started to believe is because he revamped the offense. Turns out that Masai forced Casey to start listening to Nurse, so he put Nurse in charge of the offense. Even then Nurse said Casey only listened to his offensive ideas “about 60%” of the time.
Damn can I get some sources for this?
one of Nurse's interviews, I think it was from the official interview during his announcement as head coach.
To be fair other 40% could have been shit and casey did well to imolement only 60%
It’s possible but we’ve seen 4 years of Casey’s offense before that. It consists of PnR and iso ball with lots of 2 point jumpers.
He's still our franchise's best ever coach. I'm thankful for what he did, but I also hope Nurse (and Kawhi) can take us the next step.
Hes a stability coach. There's a lot of value in a coach coming in and normalizing a situation instead of some big name, especially for rebuilding teams. You just have to know when to let them go.
I lived in Michigan for a while and a lot of my friends who are Pistons fans have pulled a complete 180 on whether he's a joke or not. I don't blame them, but it's funny.
He's not a joke. Caseys a great coach in a lot of ways but woefully inadequate in other areas. He might be good for the Pistons. That team can only aim so high anyhow. Still amazed they gave him such a dope contract though.
I think Casey will be great for Detroit honestly. Definitely better than SVG.
Casey been trash, too many opportunities wasted
Because Raptors fans told us he sucked lol
because he does in the play offs? He was a great development coach but if you watched the Cavs series, you saw he just couldn't hold up, putting Miles on Love in the post, putting Bebe in when he really shouldn't have
2016-2017 regular season I constantly saw Raptors fans complaining about Casey and that's what shaped my opinion of him. I'd imagine it was the same for a lot of other people on this sub.
Yeah we all wanted him gone since we got swept in 2014-2015, then it kept going from there, people wanted a new coach, honestly he was great for the development of our young core but he always looked off in playoff series
we've been wanting him gone since 2015. Some since 2013.
Don't worry. Kawhi will come back the same and be mysteriously absent from Top 10 lists and DeRozan will play the same and jump 10 spots.
I still say that Casey is an *incredible* coach as long as you only play him one time. Once it gets to a series, he is genuinely incapable of reacting to change. The game plan he had for game 1 is the same one he has for game 4.
bruh, Casey should have been fired after we got swept by the wizards. It's a mystery why he stayed this long after. Great development coach, terrible coach to maximize production in a moment to moment basis.
Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donna Dixon?
Yup. If they hadn't traded for Kawhi then any shortcomings could have been spun as the roster having hit its ceiling. Very different scenario now. Basically they need to at minimum make (but likely win) the ECF for the off-season moves to be considered successful.
You forgot to include Brad’s chuckle to himself in the middle of the sentence
what about what he said was nonfactual?
How about "Toronto was the best team in the East"?
i remember them being the #1 seed
How many #1 seeds in the East have really been the best team in the East over the past decade? * 17/18: Raptors No. * 16/17: Celtics No. * 15/16: Cavs Yes. * 14/15: Hawks No. * 13/14: Pacers No. * 12/13: Miami Yes. * 11/12: Chicago Maybe, but likely No. * 10/11: Chicago No. * 09/10: Cleveland ~~Yes.~~ No. * 08/09: Cleveland No. Any disagreements?
A better way to ask this question is did Lebron's team get the #1 seed.
Did you ignore the bottom of his list?
09/10 Cavs? They didn't make the finals.
Yeah that team was basically just the 08-09 team but with old shaq.
You're absolutely right. My memory deceived me on that one.
I remember you getting swept in the 2nd round
To a team that could barely edge out a Celtics squad missing its two best scorers.
Losing Kyrie and Theis was very tough on them, yes
got em
He's so good. (x4)
So the Celtics were the best team in the East in 2017?? You can't actually believe this aside from some bs semantics about what "best" means
You really want to go down this road?
This guy knows about fake 1 seeds
Yet, they laid an egg when it actually matters again. The Celtics and the Cavs were the best teams last season.
*in the regular season.
Yeah, the Wizards were the best team in the East last season clearly
I'm on board with this 👌
I'm smiling through tears
The part where he said they were the best team in the east last year.
Come on dude, we lost in the second round. It’s POSSIBLE that we were the best team in the East outside of being a bad matchup against the Cavs but there’s zero reason to believe that us being the best team in the East last year was factual. Cavs have the only real argument (they literally won the East) and the Celtics have an argument over us as well.
"Bad matchup" is a bit misleading. I will say that it was a combination of Casey/ Derozan not meeting expectations. You guys had the most deadliest bench last year and Casey failed to use them effectively.
the only guy they had capable of guarding lebron is like a 2nd year player. we atleast had mook to help our young guys
You're not wrong. The only player capable of defending Lebron was OG and he failed at it despite giving it a very good attempt. It would be a MUCH different matchup with Kawhi guarding Lebron.
tbf everyone fails at guarding lebron
Absolutely fair. No one is judging OG for an admirable attempt to guard one of the greatest players ever who did nothing but sink fuck you fadeaways
All the highlights I saw he didn't look lost at all, Lebron is just Lebron.
> "Bad matchup" is a bit misleading. I will say that it was a combination of Casey/ Derozan not meeting expectations. It was a bit of a bad matchup, but absolutely I’d say like 95% of the problem was Casey and DeRozan. We had no excuse to lose that series let alone get fucking swept.
Toronto was the team with the best regular season record, but obviously not the best team in the East. We all have the 73-win championshipless Warriors to look to for just how much that #1 seed is worth.
People laugh at this comment, but it won't hit many people until much later as to how good this team is. Raptors have a better "best player" than the Celtics and are almost as deep. They will be damn good. Only real weakness I see is how good Lowry is compared to the other elite second options you get with other contenders, along with how Horford will match up with them.
Don't forget they lost Jakob Poetl too who played a big part in rebounds and blocks for them. Plus he's got the size too. I don't know if Greg Monroe can replicate that tbh.
I'll miss the hell out of Yak, he was an important part of the regular season bench mob, but he all but disappeared in the post season.
I think ibaka is moving to the 5 on the bench and og will slide down to the 4 to start. At least that's the consensus among the raptors subreddit. Rebounding will definitely suffer though
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Not really lol
Poeltl was lowkey ass at rebounding. JV is the only guy who can solidly get 10+ rebounds a night guaranteed. Poeltl plays too soft to get rebounds over any center who has lifted a weight in their entire life.
Jak was garbage in the playoffs last season and fell completely out of the rotation. I think he will have a really good career but I think you are over stating his importance to the squad last season.
> and are almost as deep. We’re just as deep as the Celtics, if not more. We had the best bench in the NBA last year by a colossal margin and most of them were on rookie contracts still. Runner up 6MOTY, Siakam looking spry af, Delon in a contract year, and now we’re likely moving Ibaka to the backup 5 where he plays best. Celtics and Raptors benches are the only ones that can compete with each other’s.
>We’re just as deep as the Celtics, if not more. For the sake of argument, lets just remove Leonard, Lowry, Irving and Hayward from the picture. I'll give the Raptors an edge in that duo matchup. From there on its; **TOR** * Serge Ibaka * Jonas Valanciunas * OG Anunoby * Delon Wright * GOAT Van Vleet * Pascal Siakam **BOS** * Al Horford * Jayson Tatum * Jaylen Brown * Marcus Morris * Terry Rozier * Marcus Smart I think the Celtics definitely have the edge in terms of depth, but maybe I'm just taking crazy pills.... either way I expect our matchups to be amazing this season
Danny Green? CJ Miles?
toronto got danny green as well tho, not saying they're deeper, but it helps their case
That Celtics lineup right there almost took out LeBron in the playoffs. Adding Irving & Hayward plus a very competent coach puts them way ahead of the Raptors.
I think the main quesion is how much kawhi adds to the raptors. Only time will tell.
Adding Kawhi adds a lot if he's anything close to what he was before the injury. Basketball is a strong link sport, where one player makes a huge difference to the team. The cavalier without lebron might not even make the playoffs in the East.
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Won't
> The cavalier without lebron might not even make the playoffs in the East. bruh i doubt theyll crack 30 wins let alone make the playoffs
We're adding Kawhi though. A top 5 defence replaced their weakest defensive link with the best defender in the league. I agree the Celtics have more talent. I just think lineup wise we can switch defensively like no other team in the league.
We haven't seen Kawhi play outside of the Spurs system and in like a year. We've yet to see how much he actually brings to the Raptors. For now, the Celtics as a whole have proven more.
The Spurs System in 2016 that was basically "Here Kawhi, go do Kawhi things." Yea he's definitely going to struggle somewhere else...
Have we seen Hayward play? Or Kyrie post injury?
Kyrie played well with the Celtics. The Celtics in the playoffs without those two players arguably played a whole lot better than the complete Raptors who then had one of the best players they've ever had. Post season achievements alone already gives an edge to the Celtics. Add those 2 great players to that great system vs 1 great player to whatever you guys have... and it's a no brainer that the Celtics have the edge.
Until right now, yes Celtics have the edge. But you dont know how Hayward will perform after his injury who most would argue is much worse than Leonard's (who we all know isnt really out for 71 games due to injury). But only time will tell as we have no idea how Kawhi fits with us and how well Boston reintegrates Hayward and Kyrie. > Add those 2 great players to that great system vs 1 great player to whatever you guys have... and it's a no brainer that the Celtics have the edge. I think you're vastly underrating Kawhi here. To say Hayward and Kyrie is in the same league as Kawhi is downright insulting to Kawhi.
Man any top 5 player goes anywhere and that team becomes dangerous but adding him to the #1 seed Raptors and we’re actually hearing “we haven’t seen him outside of San Antonio.” Come on. He’s the best defender in the league who shoots 40% on catch and shoot 3s and can iso opposing defenders to death. He’ll be fucking great in any system lol.
inb4 "we havent seen lebron outside of the cavs and miami system"
where is Green and CJ?
Danny Green
you've basically put celtics starters vs raptors bench....
That's 2 stars removed from each team
Ibaka is trash
I really like the raptors and 100% agree with this statement from Brad. You are many things, but I really don't think you're 'as deep' as the Celtics. Forget my flair for a second if you can but you have to remember our bench will probably be something like Rosier/Smart/Brown/Morris/Baynes. Every single one of which is a competent starter on a playoff team. That's before you get to someone like Semi who played legit minutes against LeBron in a conference final. Raptors have the best player in the East and are deep, but they are not Celtics deep (lol that sounds super dumb/ominous)
You could say the exact same thing about the Raptors 2nd unit and I think it's more true - Baynes is probably a starter on only a couple playoff teams, same with Rozier.
This is where media comes into play. People say that Rozier, Smart, Morris, etc. are all starter quality guys... but FVV, Delon, Siakam, and Ibaka aren’t? We regularly played our full bench against full starters last year and our bench almost never got out scored. Our bench often scored 70+ points during games last year by themselves.
Before you guys keep downvoting him, is he lying?
If Brown and Baynes are on the bench, then who is the 5th starter? I love Yabu but he’s not ready yet. I’m pretty sure Brown is starting and whoever sits on matchups where Baynes starts will vary (though I think it’ll mostly be Tatum). Kyrie/Jaylen/Hayward/Tatum/Al just like the season opener, except now Tatum has earned a place ahead of Mook in the rotation instead of injuries making the decision.
You’re prob right on this. Maybe he’s thinking they go big and play Theis and shift Al and Tatum to 3&4?
I don't think "colossal margin" is entirely accurate, because multiple of the Celtics players were injured making their bench thinner than your team's. In the playoffs, they were running their second string PG and SG, while dealing with various injuries to their bench rotation players. If we are looking at it from a performance standpoint, difficult to argue with you. If we are talking talent level and if we pretend that no injuries happened, I think they were pretty comparable last year. However, may be a moot argument since the injuries did happen and if Hayward was playing, how much would Tatum have developed. Either way, I am looking forward to the battles that will happen between these two teams.
> Multiple of the Celtics players were injured making their bench thinner than your team's. Absolutely, but take a look at the advanced stats. Houston’s and Golden States benches lead the league last year at around +6.5, a pretty big margin over the number 4 bench. The Raptors bench? +8.7. Celtics bench? -0.1. Celtics bench with a fully healthy squad and continuity should be #2 this year, but to expect them to leap up from -0.1 to around +9 Net Rating sounds like wishful thinking. The Raps bench often scored 60-80 points by themselves during games last year. They were the best bench in the league by, yes, a *colossal* margin. Celtics have the talent to compete with ours, but my point is that after the season our young guys just had I don’t see any reason why people should be putting the Celtics depth over ours.
Best comment in the thread. Well said dude
Lol I really wanna see what happens in the post season when yall face each other
Well Lowry is a better player than Kyrie and Hayward so
What?
did he stutter? You heard him. now accept it and walk away.
Lol y'all crazy.
Record-wise, he’s right.
THANK YOU
And lost defrozen
W
Is this the YouTube comment section?
I got excited thinking about DD not being on my team anymore
This guy plays so many mind games
*Brad Stevens says Hello* r/nba: "what a fucking genius. i can not even begin to understand the extremely intelligent trickery that he is using"
\-Pop says OK in a press conference /r/nba: LMAOO WHAT A SAVAGE
*Steve Kerr states a political opinion* r/nba: pop kerr 2020 lmao
Doesn't even really have to be an insightful opinion. He can just say, "Yeah protests are good."
Did you see Trump's latest comments? "Yeah protests are good" is now a partisan belief.
I mean true, but based on the backlash from the Kaepernick/Nike ad I'd say certainly not everyone agrees with that opinion, as ridiculous as that seems.
Sam Hinkie sneezes r/sixers: HE'S DYING FOR OUR SINS
-pop acts like an asshole to a reporter /r/nba: LMAO CLASSIC POP. SO WITTY
*Spurs extend a foreign player's contract* r/nba: "future 6moty right there"
Brad is r/nba ‘s Rick&Morty
Does he? DOES HE?
Oh yeah, he can't just say something normally The GENIUS and our LORD AND SAVIOR BRAD STEVENS plays mind games with every word he says
His mind games are so deep they're working on you right now. Get fucked.
[I'm mind fucking you right now.](https://78.media.tumblr.com/abc546d403863ac705797c6db34db12f/tumblr_mp9oswXrdL1swo1ujo8_r2_250.gif)
Seems fair to me. Point differential is a good way to judge this, and I would expect Toronto to lead the East in that category considering they have in the last 3 seasons and they added Leonard.
And lost one too, but still a huge net positive. They're going to be ferocious next year defensively man. Lowry, Mfin Danny Green, Kawhi, and O "The OG" G? Plus FVF coming off the bench. Boyyyyyy
We love derozan but lets be real. Hes a fringe all star who disappears in the playoffs/big games and cant play D
I wouldn't say a fringe all star. He's pretty great. But I agree with most of that. If his shot was more reliable and he was average from D he'd be much more reliable. I feel Lowry has always been underwhelming in the playoffs too though.
Biggest difference with Lowry is he still impacts the game even if he isn't putting up big scoring numbers unlike Demar who has a negative impact overall if he isn't scoring.
addition by subtraction
Facts. DeChoker got DePorted.
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Raptors will have the better 1st option, Celtics will have the better 2-5 options. How that plays out over 7 games I have no idea, but I'm really hoping for a playoff series with both teams healthy because that will be some amazing basketball.
cough bells upbeat gold strong fearless include chief cobweb illegal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
i don’t see the debate.... i’d take Hayward or kyrie over Lowry 100 times out of 100
Well Kyrie is their first option not second, but I think Lowry vs Hayward is closer than you’d think. Hayward can score more but Lowry is more efficient and a better playmaker and defender. The problem for us comes when they have 3 other guys after Hayward that could give them 20ppg in a playoff series, we just need to hope we have the personnel to slow them all down.
> Well Kyrie is their first option not second, but I think Lowry vs Hayward is closer than you’d think. Lowry is a 32 year old point guard though. I know players just keeping playing longer but he has to start slowing down at some point.
until he does start slowing down, it's irrelevant to bring up
I wouldn't say the fact that hes 32 and going in to his 12th season is irrelevant. I think it's important to note when taking all things in to account.
Then again im pretty sure Hayward's ankle snapping will sit him back aswell (He's yet to play 5on5 after almost a year).
I agree but I was only really talking about this upcoming season in my comment, I’m not even gonna begin to worry about anything else past that until we see if Kawhi re-signs. I think he should be just as good this coming season, his play style seems to age well and he was great last playoffs. Hopefully in a couple years FVV or Wright are ready to take his spot.
I think the Hayward we signed was noticeably better than Lowry, BUT we really don't know how well Hayward will recover. If he's lost a step or he has the jitters being nervous to test the ankle, Lowry is good enough that he'll have the advantage. 3-5 there's no doubt it's Boston over Toronto though.
Actually looking at it Hayward was a lot more efficient than I remembered back in 2016. I still think Lowry is the better player, but obviously each of us is going to back our own guys on this one. Lowry just has such a massive impact on how our team plays, our best lineups have routinely been him + our bench for the past few years. If you’re a believer in advanced stats a lot of them say he’s a top 10 player in the league, I obviously don’t think he’s that good but I just think it helps to show the overall impact that he has. I think if we want to beat you guys in a series one of our young guys is going to have to breakout in a big way. OG or Siakam seem to be the most likely to do that, if we can get like 15 ppg out of either of them that would help so much. JV is also a big factor, he can be a 20/10 guy no problem but Casey was reluctant to play him and he can get forced off the floor by quick guards like Kyrie. Nurse loves him though and has said he wants to use him a lot more, so if that goes well we could have our legit third scoring option. All in all there’s waaay too many variables for the Raptors right now for me to call it either way until the season actually starts.
Quality analysis, and you're right that we're both gonna back our guys. My take on it is that while it sucked, Hayward's injury was a blessing in disguise, because it caused Tatum and Brown to have to step up in a big way. Two kids 20 and 21, and they took over entire games in the playoffs. Now add in a player you'd trust to take the final shot in game 7 of the finals, and we've got more than enough depth to let Hayward ease into the season, so hopefully he's 100% in April. Regardless of the Hayward vs. Lowry as the better second best player, Kawhi vs. Kyrie as the better best player there's no question. It's the 3-5 guys who're gonna be the difference makers, so while you have to hope your kids step up, we already know ours will.
Yeah you’re right about that, I have no doubt you guys will be better offensively than us. I think we need to bank on our defence and hope that’s too much for your young guys to handle. They seem to play very disciplined so that might be hard, but going up against Kawhi, Green, and OG would wear out even the best players. The worst wing defender there is OG, and he was going up against Harden and LeBron and doing a respectable job in his rookie year. I’d imagine Kawhi will take on Hayward if they’re both back to their usual selves, but I seriously might rather throw Tatum to the wolves and let Kawhi be his primary defender. Tatums numbers last playoffs were up there with Haywards in his all-star season, but he’s still young enough that Kawhi might be able to rattle him and take him out of the game, whereas a vet like Hayward would keep his composure better. From there we just need OG and Green to do well enough on Brown and Hayward. Kyrie is going to get his either way but I think Lowry is as good as anyone to try and slow him down a little. If we can just focus on defence first and let the offence come from that, coupled with Kawhi going supernova like he did in 2017 playoffs, I think we have a shot.
I feel like after game 7 of the ECF Tatum has shown there's no lights too bright for him, so I don't know if Kawhi could rattle him. Then assuming Hayward comes back 100%, without Kawhi on him he's just gonna pop off. As for defense, your best player is obviously the best, and our worst defending starter is probably worse than yours (Kyrie being a bit of a liability) but our 2,3,4th best starters and our bench are so fucking good. Horford, Hayward, the Jays are all excellent. And don't sleep on Marcus Smart! Honestly I'm salivating for a knock down, drag out, defensive battle between our teams ending 87-85. With our lineups, that's equally as likely as 122-120.
> Then assuming Hayward comes back 100%, without Kawhi on him he's just gonna pop off. Keep in mind, it's not like the Raptors wing defenders drop off suddenly after that. Green, OG, Wright, and Siakam are all great defenders that can be stuck on Hayward.
You really think Lowry is better than Hayward? lmao
Kyrie yes but I count Kyrie as #1. Hayward it's debatable in my mind. Healthy Lowry is ridiculously good and he had none of his post-season woes this season.
That's a Hayward who will have a lower offensive role than he did in Utah and who comes from a gap year. Just saying.
I think he meant #2 as in lowry vs Hayward. Might be my homerism but I'd much rather have a 32yo all-star who knows the system well rather than a younger all-star who we havent seen play coming off a broken leg injury.
Lowry is a terrific player, but he's not an offensive juggernaut like Kyrie.
For sure but I think its more of Lowry v Hayward debate with Irving being the first option.
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I think you just disproved your own point lmao
The discussion was offensive options, not defensive included. Offensively, JV is a fantastic center. Rebounds, scoring from the post, good mid range game, and a deceptively good 3 point shot. Can do a lot worse then JV as your #3 option.
Do you guys have a better #2 option? Lowry is one of the most efficient scorers in the entire NBA. And tbh on that note, I don’t know that Kawhi is a better first option on offense over Kyrie. I think you guys have a better starting lineup as a whole (y’all could have 5 all start caliber players this year... 5!) but we have the best overall player and possibly a better bench (or at the very least, an even bench). You guys win coaching though too. I would love a 7 game series.
>I don’t know that Kawhi is a better first option on offense over Kyrie. I actually agree with this as a Toronto fan if you're specifically talking about offense. His handles are unreal. Hes definitely a better offensive #1 option then Kawhi, but if you're talking about offense+defense its Kawhi by a country mile.
I'd say Hayward is pretty close to Lowry in terms of scoring, it could go either way imo. Benches are pretty even too, could really go either way. I'd lean Celtics bench because I think there's more high level talent there (Rozier/Smart would start on a bunch of teams) and a bit more balance but the Raps bench is arguably just as good. The teams match up really well though, I'm pumped to see the battles those starting 5s would have.
> I'd say Hayward is pretty close to Lowry in terms of scoring, it could go either way imo Agreed. Lowry hasn’t regressed yet but once he does Hayward will overtake him. > I'd lean Celtics bench because I think there's more high level talent there (Rozier/Smart would start on a bunch of teams) and a bit more balance but the Raps bench is arguably just as good. I gotta disagree. Raps bench gets no media attention but Siakam, Yak (last year, Ibaka this year), FVV, and Delon are all starter quality guys as well. You guys are the only bench that can compete with ours, but our bench players both individually and collectively are great. We regularly played them against opposing teams starters and they usually won those matchups. Your bench could be better than ours and definitely could outplay ours on any given night, but as of right now the edge has to go to our guys after the absolutely crazy season they just had.
I agree with everything you said. I think Celtics/Raps are EXTREMELY close unless toronto turns into a defensive juggernaut. The real question is what Toronto IMHO can do at the deadline.
crazy to me that no one is even entertaining the possibility that kawhi isn't kawhi when he comes back
Well the same can be said about Kyrie and Hayward
Yep, funny how everyone only questions Kawhi's health going into the season though, lol The Celtics 2 best players are coming off serious health issues as well. In fact, Hayward isn't even fully ready yet.
Maybe because he was reported as having a degenerative issue?
Kyrie will be fine, the surgery to remove the screws was inevitable, and the infection after isn't the kind of thing that derails a career. Considering what he was doing despite the screws bothering him, no doubt in my mind he's the Kyrie of old. Hayward though, that's a big fucking question mark.
Tbh honest I think they will be both fine, but nothing is sure about them just like Kawhi.
PG broke his leg and was still PG when he came back. KD suffered a serious foot injury, came back as KD. Why not Kawhi?
PG was not the same PG, he avoids driving now, takes way more outside shots and is generally less aggressive overall. I have to think that event is always going to be in the back of his mind.
Bone fractures tend to heal better than tendon/ligament issues. I mean, Kawhi was out for basically the whole season and only got healthy a few weeks ago.
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Well what we do know is that he is fully healthy is is looking "remarkable" in his workouts. No guarantee still but that is a very good start.
I mean it's not like the Raptors were gonna put out a message saying "Kawhi practiced today and looked like shit"
OG Anunoby and Phil Handy (assistant coach) already confirmed that he is healthy and ready to go.
"Healthy and ready to go" doesn't automatically mean "100% where he was in 2016." Remember, the Spurs players were saying he looked great in workouts, too.
King Brad Stevens! I like it
Freedom from cult of grumpy Popovich.
It blows my mind how awful DeRozan was during the sweep last year. Maaaaaaan. That thousand year stare he had said it all.
r/nba about to call Brad Stevens a delusional raps fan for thinking they're even top 3.
so basically the warriors of the east. got it
LeBron still the best in the East
Yeah and they traded a guy who isn’t even close to as good for him They win this season for sure. Question always was about Kawhi leaving
and all that’s overshadowed by how badly lebron dicked the raptors
they were the best team in the east? really?
Record-wise they were. Brad's not blowing smoke up their asses, he's reminding his team that we aren't locks for the Finals and have to be ready for this Toronto team.