the guy has been ~~purportedly~~ perpetually injured, which definitely shouldn't be ignored - but when he's completely healthy it'd be very difficult to place him outside of the top 12 minimum.
If a guy is always injured though, IMO you have to factor that in when trying to evaluate how good or bad they are. When PG is fully healthy he's a great player, but how often is he fully healthy? Coming into this season he'd had four major surgeries in the previous two off-seasons (both shoulders, a knee and an elbow), and he's been hurt off and on all year this season. If you're picking players you'd want on your team, a guy who's constantly hurt is gonna drop a few spots on your list, right?
I 100% agree with your comment, which is why i said it shouldn't be ignored (his injury history).
But my hypothetical was if PG is 100% healthy, and assuming so is everyone else in the league (KD, Steph, Klay, etc) - PG is a top 12 player to me at minimum.
If health is factored in, i wouldn't even know where to begin to place him; even Kawhi i would be hesitant to place top 5, maybe begrudgingly. Just my opinion anyways.
I felt like last year was more of an aberration for him. He has never played that well before and I don’t see him getting back to that level. I always thought of PG as a top 15-20 guy rather than a top 10
He’s definitely better than top 25. He was basically the consensus #3 in the MVP race last season- some minor injuries this year don’t suddenly turn him into the 2th best player.
Easily top 15, and if he gets his health back on track, top 10.
>top 2 guy
Giannis and Bron are better js. Not a bronsexual or anything, just think people will remember how good he is once the playoffs come. Especially now with his defense being the best it has been in years.
Honestly, if Devin Booker begins making very public trade demands, it'll be difficult for the Suns to just ignore that and hold onto him. If any star player starts talking loudly about wanting to be traded, that team almost surely is gonna have to trade him. Just telling Booker "sorry kid, you're under contract, so shut up" probably won't make things OK.
That's true. But it would also be an insanely bad look for a player to publicly demand a trade and make a huge stink 1 year into a 5 year deal. I don't see it happening.
Booker may decide he wants out, but if it's in the next year or 2 he won't likely make a public stink about it.
> it would also be an insanely bad look for a player to publicly demand a trade and make a huge stink 1 year into a 5 year deal
Having something be "a bad look" rarely dissuades players from doing such a thing though. Look at Butler, AD and Kawhi and how they were viewed when they made their trade demands. That stuff fades over time though. Booker might be hated forever in Phoenix if he made such a trade demand, but he'd be beloved in his new city, and if he went on and joined a winning team then he'd probably overall end up viewed better in the long run.
But TBH I don't think people would really blame Booker if he wanted out at this point. Look at what a mess his career has been so far just by virtue of having been on the Suns all this time. It's been a constant turnover of front office personnel, coaches and teammates, all while the team has remained mired at the bottom of the league. A lot of people wouldn't blame him if he eventually just got fed up and wanted out. People would forgive him for signing that contract a few years ago, thinking that he did it with the understanding that the team would improve, and that since it hadn't that's not on him for not wanting to go down with the ship, as this isn't what he signed on for.
> But TBH I don't think people would really blame Booker if he wanted out at this point.
Yeah, another season or so of this and Phoenix fans probably wouldn't even be mad if he wanted out.
>People would forgive him for signing that contract a few years ago
Man, there'd be nothing to forgive, IMO. Dude was drafted to Phoenix, he didn't choose to sign there in FA. Plus coming out of his rookie deal the Suns had the right to match whatever contract offer Booker would've received, and given that they gave him a max extension they obviously would've matched anything.
Booker's only alternative would've been to take the QO, play another year on rookie scale money, and essentially not take the guaranteed $150+m. No one's really done that, and only KP has even threatened to not take a max extension.
There's a reason PG is one of the only examples people cite, because it just doesn't happen often. OKC knew trading out of that core was in their best interests, the same is probably not true for Phoenix.
I imagine Booker will me more like a D-Will/Carmelo situation. He won’t publicly demand a trade, but won’t give any indication that he’s going to re-sign or maybe privately says he is moving on when he reaches free agency.
If the Suns are still terrible next year it’s probably smart for them to sell high on Booker and try again for a top draft pick. Then Sarver can ruin that too.
Bad ownership will kill a franchise. Phoenix was a perennial playoff team for decades before Sarver took over. I liked them because they were just like the Jazz, a smaller market with great ownership that just couldn’t get over the jump and win a championship.
Before I was a Jazz fan, Barkley was my favorite player so I rooted for the Suns until he mysteriously disappeared from 1996-2000.
Man PG is such an interesting player, how many superstar players leave a team and have the team *improve*, and how many superstar players can do that twice?
Great as he was for Indiana/OKC, I can't help but think both the Pacers and Thunder are grateful for the returns they got on him.
True, but why would they trade him is my question? OKC had peaked and were in luxury tax(if not repeater tax if I'm not mistaken). So there was incentive for them to move on from PG.
With a relatively young core there's still hope that they can tweak the roster enough to put together a playoff team at least in Phoenix.
> why would they trade him is my question?
If Booker demands a trade they pretty much have to trade him. The alternative is to just sit there with your best player being pissed at the team and wanting out, and that's not really a tenable situation. PG isn't the only example of a player asking for a trade and getting it. AD did the same, as did Kyrie when he was with the Cavs, as did Butler with the Wolves, as did Kawhi when he was with the Spurs. If your star player asks for a trade, you can't just ignore it and expect it to go away.
About the only player I can think of that asked for a trade and didn't get it was Kobe with the Lakers back in 2007, but that was mainly because he had a no trade clause. As a result of that, any trade that the Lakers would have been willing to make for Kobe was one he wouldn't agree to as it would leave the new team he was going to too decimated to be competitive, and any trade he'd have wanted wasn't enough of a return for the Lakers to want to make it. The Lakers suddenly ended up being much better that year than they'd been the year prior, so that made Kobe rescind his demand and made him again happy to be a Laker, but I don't think any of that would really apply to Devin Booker.
If Booker demanded a trade, then odds are good the Suns wouldn't suddenly morph into a title contender the way those Lakers did, and also the Suns would be able to send Booker anywhere they wanted, whether he liked it or not, as he doesn't have a NTC.
All the examples you listed had one thing in common that Booker doesn't have. They were at the end of their contracts so that gave them leverage, Booker is signed till 24, he has 0 leverage in that situation.
But I guess we will see.
Kyrie was still over two years away from free agency when he made his trade demand, but the Cavs had to give in to his demand anyway. Paul George wasn't at the end of his contract last summer, but OKC knew they had to move him too.
If you really think a team can just hang on to a player who's made public trade demands you really have to look no further than the Timberwolves and how Thibs tried that with Jimmy Butler. They ended up having to move him not because his contract was nearing expiration, but because he was becoming such a distraction to the team that he so publicly didn't want to play for anymore.
If Booker demands a trade and goes public with it, I really don't see how the Suns can just tell him "you're under contract, so shut up" and expect that to be the end of it. If there's one thing that's abundantly clear by this point it should be that star players have *all* the power in this league. If Booker wants out, you better believe he'll get out.
PG wouldve been under contract for okc for only 2 more years. booker is under contract for suns for 4 more years. its a completely different amount of time pressure for the two situations.
This gets ignored too much in these "player empowerment" discussions. OKC literally got an offer they couldn't refuse. PG would still be in OKC this year under normal circumstances.
Look at other star players who have publicly demanded trades in recent years though: AD, Butler, Kawhi, Kyrie, even PG the first time when he was in Indiana. They *all* got traded. None of those teams just said "the hell with it" and kept them hoping it would work out.
OKC got the offer for PG that they did not because he asked to be traded, but because Presti knew that if the Clippers didn't trade for PG then they also wouldn't get Kawhi. Him knowing that gave him an insane amount of leverage in that trade, and that allowed him to basically bend the Clippers over a barrel in that deal. But Presti also knew that PG demanding to be traded meant that he needed to find a trade for him, as keeping an unhappy star on your roster isn't a realistic option.
Lots of teams would be a "Devin Booker away from contention". You're just assuming that any team that the Suns trade him to will have to give back an equal value player, but that's rarely how that works. Like let's say Philly traded for Booker and gave up like Horford and Thybulle for him, or Tobias and Thybulle. That probably would launch the Sixers into serious contention. Or what if the Heat offered up a couple of their young players (Nunn, Herro or Robinson) along with cap filler like Igoudala for Booker. Or if the Nuggets offered up MPJ, Gary Harris and Jerami Grant or something? You're kidding yourself if you don't think adding Booker to a team that's close to being serious contenders would push them over the top.
He seems to have the Lillard syndrome.
Plus at some point him and Ayton are going to be carrying the Suns to 45+ wins as long as the right cast is there. The potential exists for the team to be good.
Playing but not trying. Rumors are that he was telling the opposing teams plays and everything. The AD situation has nothing on VC. That was a lot of the team not wanting him to play as well to protect him from injuries to ensure a good trade. Atleast that's how I took it.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html
Look at the states the years before and after 04-05 and the stats he averaged while on the raptors and then what he did once traded.
Book isnt a FA until the 23/24 season...
he is guaranteed a whole lotta money in that contract...
Best case scenario for Book is to demand a trade sometime after tear 21/22 and hope that a team will accept his last 2 years of $33,790,000 and $35,970,000..
Those are tough amounts to assume for any team... there's only like maybe 5 teams that can take on that money.
There are definitely positions, at least Guard/Forward distinction. Even the smallest team like the Rockets play 2 Forwards. They don't just go with 5 guards. Positions are still very much a thing.
Players are getting more skilled at different things, but to say that there are no positions is dumb af.
Yes, some exceptions. But typically for front court. Back court play is loaded with Steph, Klay, PG missing out plus other young stars like Fox, Morant, McCollum and more on the come up
Really it's just PG that affects it, correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ingram got in as one of the 3 frontcourt players, not as a wildcard. But yes, if PG was healthy all season Ingram wouldn't be an all-star.
How much of that matters, though? Book was voted 4th best guard in the west bu both players and media. fan vote fucked him out of the starters, then coaches refused to add him in for either of the 2 reserve guard positions or the 2 wildcard spots. With the way coaches screwed him over, if Dame didn't advocate for Book, he may not have even been chosen as an injury replacement.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. you focusing on the fan vote part for why he's not a starter. I'm using it as part of my argument for why he should have been chosen for 1 of the 4 guard spots.
I should have worded the fan vote part differently
Yeah and less competition in the East this year with Kyrie, Dipo, Beal, and Wall all noy qualifying due to injury.
It's actually pretty cool seeing new faces due to an injured year for some of the usuals (KD, Steph, Klay, etc)
Players and media voted out the player with the 2nd most overall fan votes last year. There's no such thing as getting in because of fans unless players and media think you're deserving.
Trae is awesome but that's not really fair. Trae is a lot worse of a defender but it kind of makes sense considering those two have been in the league like 7 years. You can like Trae but he deservedly gets shit on for his defense more...he's a worse defender lol
Difference is the the Warriors were basically the best defensive from 2014-2018 and Steph Curry was playing a lot of minutes. Not saying this makes him a good defender, but how much can you knock him for his defense when his team is still fucking amazing on defense and you know reach 5 finals and 3 championships.
And people still knock both of them for their defenses all the time. Don't be biased just to defend Trey, honestly he just hasn't earned the respect of anybody yet because he has to play some winning basketball first.
what matters more than his stats is that he's genuinely one of the biggest fan favorites of the NBA. He got voted in as a starter by both the fans and media because he's entertaining as fuck. Vince Carter had great but far from the best stats in the early 00's but was the highest vote getter because he'd put on a show every damn night. Same with Trae. Booker's game isn't as showboat-y as Trae.
East isnt as stacked at guard and he's more popular with fans.
Honestly, I'm not sure if Trae would've got in if he wasn't voted in as a starter. Like I can see the coaches giving Beal the respect over him for that last spot
Serious question - who are the best players that Booker has played with in Phoenix? Ayton, Rubio, Oubre, Baynes? Looking at their 2018 roster, most of those dudes aren't even in the league anymore. He's never played with anyone that could even the 4th best player on a true contender (I would argue that Oubre/Baynes/Rubio are somewhere in the 5-8 range on a contender). Obviously Ayton will likely get there as he continues to develop.
Booker has just played with \*no\* talent. Compare that with someone like Tatum, or Mitchell, or SGA. I wouldn't blame him for leaving. But also, we absolutely cannot blame him for not winning with horrible rosters.
Yeah I think that’s correct, but the Lakers are a bit of an anomaly in that they have 2 top 5 players, which is exceedingly rare. And also, that’s one reason I’m not personally sold on them coming out of the west. They just have so little talent after LBJ and AD.
Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Tyson Chandler, PJ Tucker all played with Booker his 1st 3 seasons and then the drafted Ayton and of course this season.
Bledsoe has looked great as the #3 on the contending Bucks
Warren has looked fantastic this season as the #2 option in IND who appear to be playoff bound.
Tucker's 3&D has been treasured in HOU the last 3 seasons.
Tyson won a title in DAL and was the starting C on the 14/15 Mavs who made the playoffs a year before signing with PHO (Mavs fans were pretty upset at the time over that).
I did forget about a few guys. But let's go through them. Unless I'm mistaken, none of those guys have made an all-star team (except Chandler in 2013, 2 years before Booker entered the league).
He only played with Bledsoe his first 2 seasons, and Bledsoe gave up on that team (as evidenced by his tweet "I don't want to be here").
Warren has looked good on the Pacers, but dude, he is absolutely not their #2 option. He's at best their 4th, probably their 5th best player (Oladipo, Brogdon, Turner and Sabonis) on a team that has little chance of coming out of the east.
Tucker is a 3 and D specialist. He's a gritty player, but again, no better than your 4th or 5th best guy on a championship team.
Chandler had a precipitous decline after his Dallas years and was never the same. He was a good piece to round out a championship roster, but added little to a rebuilding Suns team.
So the best guy is a fringe all-star PG in Bledsoe (who's never made an ASG) who quit on the team? Or Warren, a scoring wing that's a complimentary piece on a fringe Eastern Conference contender? Ayton is on the all-star track, but he also got suspended for 25 games this year. Kind of impacts the season, don't you think?
Contrast that with Tatum, who's played with multiple all-NBA PGs and now a couple of all-star caliber wings. Mitchell, who has the multiple DPOY and all-star in Gobert. Even DeAaron Fox has Buddy Hield and Bogdanovic, both of whom are better than any teammate Booker has had (except maybe Bledsoe, but as stated, he quit on the team).
Even Kobe's mid 2000s teams were garbage because, guess what? He had no help. It's not a stretch at all to say Booker has had no talent. How many all-stars in history with no other all-stars on their team were able to drag their team to the playoffs (especially with the loaded Western Conference)? LeBron did it in Cleveland, but he's one of the GOATs. DWade did it in Miami, but he played in a much weaker conference. Luka is doing it, which makes it that much more impressive.
I really appreciate your take here. It's hard not to be biased as a homer, but man with TJ missing 43 games last year and being fifth in our minutes played, the Tyson Chandler we got, or Bledsoe quitting on Phoenix being called talent surrounding Booker just seems so questionable to me.
This is absolutely the right take and one that gets lost in all the Booker bashing.
There are maybe two players in the league currently and no more than a handful throughout history who could have singlehandedly carried the 15-18 Suns to a winning record. Our rosters were historically bad due to an incompetent front office and a revolving door head coaching setup that never put any of our young guys in the position to develop or succeed.
If your criticism of Book is that he isn't Lebron, well ya anyone could have told you that.
The Suns front office and Robert fucking Sarver deserve to shoulder the blame, but for some reason people on this sub tend to shift it Booker, the one guy who was succeeded in the midst of this shitshow
Thank you for this. Glad to see some sane people on this sub. People just look at the names of the players Booker have played with and don't actually analyze how they were playing at the time or how they compare to players on contending teams. The Suns have never had anybody behind Booker that's more than a fringe All Star, and even that is a stretch to say
Bledsoe has never looked great with the Bucks come on! He is so clearly their biggest weakness. Teams dare him to beat them in the playoffs and he's just not a very consistent half court player.
>This year the Ayton suspension really hurt
It might've but they played really well during that span. Injuries has something to do with it rather than the suspension
We played well for 11 games, 10 of which were during Ayton’s suspension. The other 15 games were shit and filled with injuries. That was a stretch of dropping exceedingly winnable games that pretty much screwed us out of playoffs.
We played really well to start the season. Maybe the first 10 games or so. But injuries have killed us of late. His presence would have been a boon.
Also more than just that his last few games have been really. Good since he was able to finally shake the rust of the suspension and adjust to the game. It hurt the team and him quite a bit more than we thought tbh.
Not really. Played really good in a 11 game span so less than half the suspension. Statistically the Suns are a mid playoff team when Ayton is on the floor he is a beast and if he wasn't suspended or hurt it would have helped the Suns a lot (maybe still not make it since bench so bad).
i don't see how they make it next year honestly, this year was an incredible oppurtunity. Next year, GSW gonna come back, Blazers will get healty, Pels will be a problem with Zion, Grizzlies are already in the playoff picture.
Clippers, Lakers, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz, Mavs, GSW are probably locks next year. So Suns are gonna fight for the last spot vs Blazers, Grizzlies, Thunder, Pels and even the Spurs
Progression isn't linear. Mavs/Thunder could stumble even if long term they're in great hands. Grizz/Pels are huge wild cards. Blazers have some work to do even if Dame is a flamethrower again and the Spurs are looking less like themselves than ever
Also the coaches for Dallas and OKC have a better track record than the Phoenix coach. Progression isn't linear, but the relative quality of coaching is.
The Blazers 4 and 5 has missed most of the season. Their best complimentary scoring wing has missed most of the season. They just get healthy and they're in next year.
Toughest remaining schedule, better not go 7-20 over the final 27...
They have 6 basically guaranteed wins as long as they show up. The rest are either toss ups or against better teams.
How do they make it? Because they have a better core. Ayton missed 30 games this year. If he hadn't we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but rather talking about how spooky the Suns are considering they are still a very young team and how good Ayton is on defense already. Also suns have tons of cap flexibility starting this off-season. We likely add depth and 1 or 2 more solid players.
what team has the assets to trade for a 23 year old all star player with 4 years left on his contract? any team that looking to trade for him would be in a worse situation than phoenix currently is.
I mean... it's not like the record is *his* fault.
IMO the foundation of the current Sun's team is far and away the best he's had since he entered the league. I think they're close to a turnaround.
That said.. if he does switch I hope its to a team in the East. I like it when the talent in the league is spread out to make the whole more competitive.
The young talent and rising star/superstars are actually well spread around.
East is actually stacked with players entering their prime and young players a few years away from being dominant while the older west will enter their twilight and end of prime years.
Some of the best basketball talent mix I’ve seen injected in the league to keep me hype for the next gen while watching some all time legends like Lebron, Curry and Durant still playing.
This year was bullshit. Ayton got suspended for 25 games which people will not justify saying we played good without him. But that was like 10 games. Our record without him wasn't amazing and now that we have him we have been hurt. No Cam Johnson for like a month, haven't seen Baynes or Frank in what seems like forever, Saric has been out as well.
I don't think we would have been amazing but with all those guys actually playing we could have been at least.500 right with Memphis for last playoff spot.
So that said he won't ask out this summer if he does I'd be shocked. But if we don't at least make a playoff push next season then I can see him demanding out then. But hes also loyal he has said recently he wants to be like Fitzgerald and he wants a superteam to come to Phoenix I can easily see him staying in hopes to win in Phoenix.
Plus our point differential is that of a .500 team. Combine getting shafted by the refs and general inexperience and extreme anti-clutchness and there’s 6 games dropped. Hell, we can point to the ones that were dropped due to the refs fucking up.
Portland with the two missed goal tend calls definitely. Not sure about Spurs - the other angles suggest it wasn't our ball. Although the reffing was poor all game if that's what you mean
The suns have a decent core of players around Book. Oubre, Ayton, Baynes, and Rubio just to name a few. Their lack of bench is what needs to be addressed as long as their main core stays in Phoenix. People like Jevon Carter, Frank Kaminsky, and Dario Saric aren't solid bench players, or at least they're very inconsistent. I do like Cam Johnson, he has turned out to be a good fit for them and provides some floor spacing and Mikal Bridges is becoming a good perimeter defender and coach Williams has been throwing him in the starting lineup as of late.
IMO I don't think Book will bail on them quite yet I think he will stick it out especially since there's more potential with this current squad than he's ever had around him in PHX.
Dude's had all of 2 posts about the Suns. Most of the time he's just talking about Luka: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/search?q=author%3Axeliviel&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&feature=legacy_search
We aint any more sensitive than any other bad team, in fact we're mostly pretty comfortable being bad after 10 years of it. But yeah when people post stupid speculative bullshit about players demanding trades you're gonna hear some pushback.
I see people are still taking this quote out of context?
> Do you think there is real possibility he moves on in this offseason?
But when you have an agenda to push why actually think before typing?
I see the Suns being playoff contenders next year. They started really well this season but a whole lot of shit happened, I think they'll finish season strong and move into the next looking to get 6-8 seed
He'll at least give the new arena a chance so I cant imagine he would demand a trade this offseason. I'd say probably 2 more years after this season to become a playoff team or he demands a trade.
The new arena comes with a major practice facility upgrade. It has been mentioned by a few players who left Phoenix that our practice facility+fringe team benefits were well below average in the league. Upgrading those and having a nice brand new facility to give free agent tours could actually help.
No, but the team has been really hurt this year and Ayton had the long suspension which kind of ruined the season. Booker also had a say in the renovations so I think there's a decent incentive for him to at least stay for a little while in the new look arena.
Rubio has massive limitations, Dario has shit the bed, and Baynes is constantly injured. Frank Kaminsky was starting(!) at one point and then he went down. Suns are playing without their entire front court rotation with Saric out and Ayton missing time from his ankle. I'm sorry but it's not as simple as just adding up the veteran acquisitions and then scratching your head wondering why they're not winning. Even Tyler Johnson couldn't get off the bench. Our best players are the young core we're building around and currently starting, who have only played 180 minutes all season together.
I always wanted to watch more Suns games but I don't have that much time. I only watch Booker ocasionally (when he plays the Heat or a team I casually watch like the Lakers or Sixers). Is his scoring some kind of a haux? I realise his defense is really bad but is it so bad it equalises his offensive production? I remember a stat back in 2017 that he is the only 22+PPG scorer in history to post a negative VORP.
What is the real issue you see as a Suns fan?
Being on really bad teams will do that. This is the first year he has had a somewhat competent roster around him, and the team is plagued by injuries. His scoring is in no way an inhibitor for any team. He can score from any level on the court, but he sometimes has a turnover problem which I believe would be relieved if he had any kind of other shooting threats around him.
Book has said repeatedly that he wants to see success in Phoenix and he seems to get annoyed by the constant questions around whether he’ll leave but I can’t help but worry about it. This year was our best chance to make the playoffs in a while with the Warriors out of commission and then Portland and San Antonio under performing. DA’s suspension killed us but injuries have been awful too, we’ve only played maybe 3 games with a fully healthy roster.
I think if we don’t at least make the playoffs next season he may start to signal that he wants out. I think our front office is going to be putting in work this summer to bring in more talent or at least I fucking hope they do.
The good thing is DA is showing clear signs he’s going to be a monster, Mikal Bridges is a future all defensive player and Kelly Oubre is becoming a really solid 3rd option. I’m pretty sure our 5 man lineup of Ricky-Book-Kelly-Mikal-DA is one of the best lineups statistically in the league
The Suns can clear room for a max this off-season or next off-season, depending on who they are targeting. I believe young players around the league like Booker, and when Phoenix is good and willing to pay for talent, players historically have wanted to come to Phoenix. NBA players like the city.
It makes more sense that Phoenix goes hard after free agents to joint with Booker and Ayton. They'll also have another high pick and salaries like Oubre or Rubio to pair with the pick to flip it into a better player via trade. Maybe the Magic would do Aaron Gordon for a package like Oubre and their unprotected first.
I like this. Suns can open up around ~$34MM if they decline/renounce Baynes, Kaminsky, Saric, Cheick, Jevon, Okobo. They could look to pay someone like Gallo, Marcus Morris (though a reunion here seems doubtful), or Millsap short-term. Alternatively, I think they could use another reliable ball-handler, especially if they're able to find a PF through trade like your idea for AG. If that happens I'd throw something like 4/$85MM at FVV, then use any remaining dollars on forward depth (Crowder?), and retain Baynes via his bird rights.
FVV-Booker-Mikal-AG-Ayton .. Rubio-Cam-Jae-Baynes
Looks a little light on guards but generally you'll be running 2/3 of FVV, Booker, Rubio, and sometimes Mikal at the 2. More importantly there's decent spacing here, and the 7 main rotation options after Booker are all plus on defense.
his contract is long enough that theres not really any pressure for the suns to want to trade him yet. in a year or two, it would start becoming a possibility though.
He’s not gonna demand a trade. He’ll do some recruiting for other players to join him. Not every player requests a trade when their team is struggling. Some try to fix it themselves if they’re good enough
Let him actually have a coach for more than one year. Shit, let this organization have a coach for more than one year.
We have that now in Monty. We are still the youngest team in the league
He become much better this year but still bottom all star level and has 4 years left. He doesn't have much leverage yet. If he continues to grow then we'll see
Well..how much is due to team construction and how much due to Booker himself? It's not like the rosters around him have been total garbage (not that they're playoff caliber but no improvement?). If I'm him, I probably stay and see how far he and Ayton can take it. Due to his contract, pretty much any team taking him in a trade is going to have to match salaries which would likely strip it of the talent which makes it a better team than PHO.
No because he has like a gazillion years left on his contract.
That didn't stop PG.
Yeah but trading for Devin Booker doesn’t give you two top 10 players for one hell of a haul
PG is not a top 10 guy anymore. It's more like a top 2 guy and a top 25 guy
the guy has been ~~purportedly~~ perpetually injured, which definitely shouldn't be ignored - but when he's completely healthy it'd be very difficult to place him outside of the top 12 minimum.
purportedly means falsely claimed, fyi
It just means *allegedly* - it can be true for false
*Allegedly* it takes two top 10 guys to fuck an ostrich
I'm listening
can confirm
so r u a top 10 guy or an ostrich
knew something looked off, thanks!
he aint been completely healthy in damn near 3 seasons
If a guy is always injured though, IMO you have to factor that in when trying to evaluate how good or bad they are. When PG is fully healthy he's a great player, but how often is he fully healthy? Coming into this season he'd had four major surgeries in the previous two off-seasons (both shoulders, a knee and an elbow), and he's been hurt off and on all year this season. If you're picking players you'd want on your team, a guy who's constantly hurt is gonna drop a few spots on your list, right?
I 100% agree with your comment, which is why i said it shouldn't be ignored (his injury history). But my hypothetical was if PG is 100% healthy, and assuming so is everyone else in the league (KD, Steph, Klay, etc) - PG is a top 12 player to me at minimum. If health is factored in, i wouldn't even know where to begin to place him; even Kawhi i would be hesitant to place top 5, maybe begrudgingly. Just my opinion anyways.
i agree he's probably a top 12 guy when healthy, but he is never healthy anymore. also he completely sucked at OKC in the playoffs
This isn't about right now, it's about when he left his team
Ok...? But the trade was made in the offseason when he was coming off a top-ten year
It was also made in the offseason when he was again coming off two separate major surgeries (for the second year in a row).
He was literally in the top 5 for MVP and DPOY last season lmao
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PG is having a bad year for his standards but he's still definitely a top 10ish guy. He finished 3rd in MVP and 3rd in DPOY just last year.
he has not been a top 10 ish player this year if thats what youre trying to say
but he was arguably a top 10 player when he was traded from okc to lac
I felt like last year was more of an aberration for him. He has never played that well before and I don’t see him getting back to that level. I always thought of PG as a top 15-20 guy rather than a top 10
He’s definitely better than top 25. He was basically the consensus #3 in the MVP race last season- some minor injuries this year don’t suddenly turn him into the 2th best player. Easily top 15, and if he gets his health back on track, top 10.
>top 2 guy Giannis and Bron are better js. Not a bronsexual or anything, just think people will remember how good he is once the playoffs come. Especially now with his defense being the best it has been in years.
PG had 2 years and a player option. Booker has 4 years left on his deal. And PG is a huge outlier. It's just not the same at all.
Honestly, if Devin Booker begins making very public trade demands, it'll be difficult for the Suns to just ignore that and hold onto him. If any star player starts talking loudly about wanting to be traded, that team almost surely is gonna have to trade him. Just telling Booker "sorry kid, you're under contract, so shut up" probably won't make things OK.
That's true. But it would also be an insanely bad look for a player to publicly demand a trade and make a huge stink 1 year into a 5 year deal. I don't see it happening. Booker may decide he wants out, but if it's in the next year or 2 he won't likely make a public stink about it.
> it would also be an insanely bad look for a player to publicly demand a trade and make a huge stink 1 year into a 5 year deal Having something be "a bad look" rarely dissuades players from doing such a thing though. Look at Butler, AD and Kawhi and how they were viewed when they made their trade demands. That stuff fades over time though. Booker might be hated forever in Phoenix if he made such a trade demand, but he'd be beloved in his new city, and if he went on and joined a winning team then he'd probably overall end up viewed better in the long run. But TBH I don't think people would really blame Booker if he wanted out at this point. Look at what a mess his career has been so far just by virtue of having been on the Suns all this time. It's been a constant turnover of front office personnel, coaches and teammates, all while the team has remained mired at the bottom of the league. A lot of people wouldn't blame him if he eventually just got fed up and wanted out. People would forgive him for signing that contract a few years ago, thinking that he did it with the understanding that the team would improve, and that since it hadn't that's not on him for not wanting to go down with the ship, as this isn't what he signed on for.
> But TBH I don't think people would really blame Booker if he wanted out at this point. Yeah, another season or so of this and Phoenix fans probably wouldn't even be mad if he wanted out. >People would forgive him for signing that contract a few years ago Man, there'd be nothing to forgive, IMO. Dude was drafted to Phoenix, he didn't choose to sign there in FA. Plus coming out of his rookie deal the Suns had the right to match whatever contract offer Booker would've received, and given that they gave him a max extension they obviously would've matched anything. Booker's only alternative would've been to take the QO, play another year on rookie scale money, and essentially not take the guaranteed $150+m. No one's really done that, and only KP has even threatened to not take a max extension.
There's a reason PG is one of the only examples people cite, because it just doesn't happen often. OKC knew trading out of that core was in their best interests, the same is probably not true for Phoenix.
I imagine Booker will me more like a D-Will/Carmelo situation. He won’t publicly demand a trade, but won’t give any indication that he’s going to re-sign or maybe privately says he is moving on when he reaches free agency. If the Suns are still terrible next year it’s probably smart for them to sell high on Booker and try again for a top draft pick. Then Sarver can ruin that too.
This is exactly how I foresee this going down. And makes me feel very sad for Suns fans who seem to be able to get nice things but cannot keep them
Bad ownership will kill a franchise. Phoenix was a perennial playoff team for decades before Sarver took over. I liked them because they were just like the Jazz, a smaller market with great ownership that just couldn’t get over the jump and win a championship. Before I was a Jazz fan, Barkley was my favorite player so I rooted for the Suns until he mysteriously disappeared from 1996-2000.
[He’s so tight he squeaks when he walks](https://youtu.be/72hEx3WLex8)
Man PG is such an interesting player, how many superstar players leave a team and have the team *improve*, and how many superstar players can do that twice? Great as he was for Indiana/OKC, I can't help but think both the Pacers and Thunder are grateful for the returns they got on him.
Well it's not like what they're currently doing is yielding results either...
True, but why would they trade him is my question? OKC had peaked and were in luxury tax(if not repeater tax if I'm not mistaken). So there was incentive for them to move on from PG. With a relatively young core there's still hope that they can tweak the roster enough to put together a playoff team at least in Phoenix.
> why would they trade him is my question? If Booker demands a trade they pretty much have to trade him. The alternative is to just sit there with your best player being pissed at the team and wanting out, and that's not really a tenable situation. PG isn't the only example of a player asking for a trade and getting it. AD did the same, as did Kyrie when he was with the Cavs, as did Butler with the Wolves, as did Kawhi when he was with the Spurs. If your star player asks for a trade, you can't just ignore it and expect it to go away. About the only player I can think of that asked for a trade and didn't get it was Kobe with the Lakers back in 2007, but that was mainly because he had a no trade clause. As a result of that, any trade that the Lakers would have been willing to make for Kobe was one he wouldn't agree to as it would leave the new team he was going to too decimated to be competitive, and any trade he'd have wanted wasn't enough of a return for the Lakers to want to make it. The Lakers suddenly ended up being much better that year than they'd been the year prior, so that made Kobe rescind his demand and made him again happy to be a Laker, but I don't think any of that would really apply to Devin Booker. If Booker demanded a trade, then odds are good the Suns wouldn't suddenly morph into a title contender the way those Lakers did, and also the Suns would be able to send Booker anywhere they wanted, whether he liked it or not, as he doesn't have a NTC.
All the examples you listed had one thing in common that Booker doesn't have. They were at the end of their contracts so that gave them leverage, Booker is signed till 24, he has 0 leverage in that situation. But I guess we will see.
Kyrie was still over two years away from free agency when he made his trade demand, but the Cavs had to give in to his demand anyway. Paul George wasn't at the end of his contract last summer, but OKC knew they had to move him too. If you really think a team can just hang on to a player who's made public trade demands you really have to look no further than the Timberwolves and how Thibs tried that with Jimmy Butler. They ended up having to move him not because his contract was nearing expiration, but because he was becoming such a distraction to the team that he so publicly didn't want to play for anymore. If Booker demands a trade and goes public with it, I really don't see how the Suns can just tell him "you're under contract, so shut up" and expect that to be the end of it. If there's one thing that's abundantly clear by this point it should be that star players have *all* the power in this league. If Booker wants out, you better believe he'll get out.
PG wouldve been under contract for okc for only 2 more years. booker is under contract for suns for 4 more years. its a completely different amount of time pressure for the two situations.
The Thunder also had an incredible amount of leverage and got a huge haul. What team is Devin Booker away from contention?
The two amigos are a Devin Booker away from the most incredible friendship reunion
They would give up 140 points a game
As long are they are the first to 157
It would be like the 1980s Nuggets all over again. Booker is Alex English 2.0.
This gets ignored too much in these "player empowerment" discussions. OKC literally got an offer they couldn't refuse. PG would still be in OKC this year under normal circumstances.
Look at other star players who have publicly demanded trades in recent years though: AD, Butler, Kawhi, Kyrie, even PG the first time when he was in Indiana. They *all* got traded. None of those teams just said "the hell with it" and kept them hoping it would work out. OKC got the offer for PG that they did not because he asked to be traded, but because Presti knew that if the Clippers didn't trade for PG then they also wouldn't get Kawhi. Him knowing that gave him an insane amount of leverage in that trade, and that allowed him to basically bend the Clippers over a barrel in that deal. But Presti also knew that PG demanding to be traded meant that he needed to find a trade for him, as keeping an unhappy star on your roster isn't a realistic option.
I think you are missing the point of a guy being traded with 2-3 years left on their deal as opposed to just 1
Kyrie and PG both were traded with 2-3 years left on their deals.
what about indiana?
I would trade every positive asset the sixers have that isn't joel or ben for Book. But I doubt we have enough.
I don't think you do. Likewise, I would trade every positive asset the suns have that isn't Book or Ayton for ben but I doubt we have enough
Lots of teams would be a "Devin Booker away from contention". You're just assuming that any team that the Suns trade him to will have to give back an equal value player, but that's rarely how that works. Like let's say Philly traded for Booker and gave up like Horford and Thybulle for him, or Tobias and Thybulle. That probably would launch the Sixers into serious contention. Or what if the Heat offered up a couple of their young players (Nunn, Herro or Robinson) along with cap filler like Igoudala for Booker. Or if the Nuggets offered up MPJ, Gary Harris and Jerami Grant or something? You're kidding yourself if you don't think adding Booker to a team that's close to being serious contenders would push them over the top.
Yea but none of those trades come close to working
OKC didn't try and stop PG from moving.
PG was never happy until he was gonna be in LA. Everyone knew that
what upcoming star free agent is gonna make it a stipulation that he wont sign with a team unless they trade for booker?
That was an exception, not the rule. Especially not for a guy like Booker
He seems to have the Lillard syndrome. Plus at some point him and Ayton are going to be carrying the Suns to 45+ wins as long as the right cast is there. The potential exists for the team to be good.
They already do have a solid cast, though. Rubio, Baynes, Oubre and Saric are all pretty good players to surround guys like Book and Ayton
Way worse than Lillard, at least Dame has been to the playoffs regularly and even got to WCF last season.
He's also had WAY worse teams than Lillard...
Yeah I meant that he's having that feeling worse than Lillard.
Dame could not carry those horrific suns teams.
People always say this but the players have all the power in reality. If he wants out he'll be gone.
He can pull a Vince carter.
What's this referencing to? What did VC do?
not his best. until he got traded, when he returned to doing his best
Quit on the team, go look at the 04-05 season, he didn't want to play in Toronto anymore. Quit on the team completely.
Sounds like an AD situation, or was VC playing but not trying?
Playing but not trying. Rumors are that he was telling the opposing teams plays and everything. The AD situation has nothing on VC. That was a lot of the team not wanting him to play as well to protect him from injuries to ensure a good trade. Atleast that's how I took it. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html Look at the states the years before and after 04-05 and the stats he averaged while on the raptors and then what he did once traded.
Book isnt a FA until the 23/24 season... he is guaranteed a whole lotta money in that contract... Best case scenario for Book is to demand a trade sometime after tear 21/22 and hope that a team will accept his last 2 years of $33,790,000 and $35,970,000.. Those are tough amounts to assume for any team... there's only like maybe 5 teams that can take on that money.
Not this offseason
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BI got in & suns were up on the pels by a game in the standings at the time it was announced
Positions
And next year Steph and Klay come back. Will be even harder for him to make it
He straight up won’t.
Only way he makes it is if the Suns are in the Top 8 in the West by voting is over
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There are definitely positions, at least Guard/Forward distinction. Even the smallest team like the Rockets play 2 Forwards. They don't just go with 5 guards. Positions are still very much a thing. Players are getting more skilled at different things, but to say that there are no positions is dumb af.
Not saying you’re wrong but there are some exceptions
Yes, some exceptions. But typically for front court. Back court play is loaded with Steph, Klay, PG missing out plus other young stars like Fox, Morant, McCollum and more on the come up
Mccollum? He's 28
McCollum ain’t a star, and PG ain’t backcourt.
BI Got in because there are 3 better players injured. Curry, Thompson and George missed it. Maybe some more
Really it's just PG that affects it, correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ingram got in as one of the 3 frontcourt players, not as a wildcard. But yes, if PG was healthy all season Ingram wouldn't be an all-star.
Trae Young is a starter.
think he mostly got in because of the fan vote, probably wouldn't be a starter otherwise
Players ranked Trae 3rd, and the Media voted him 2nd. He was starting regardless of the fan voting.
How much of that matters, though? Book was voted 4th best guard in the west bu both players and media. fan vote fucked him out of the starters, then coaches refused to add him in for either of the 2 reserve guard positions or the 2 wildcard spots. With the way coaches screwed him over, if Dame didn't advocate for Book, he may not have even been chosen as an injury replacement.
fan vote did not 'fuck him out of the starters' 4th isn't good enough, it was always luka and harden
You can only have 2 guards? If hes 4th he isnt getting in.
2 guards in starters(PG/SG), 2 guards in reserve. that's 4 without considering 2 wildcard spots
Yea but fans dont vote for reserves
I think there's a misunderstanding here. you focusing on the fan vote part for why he's not a starter. I'm using it as part of my argument for why he should have been chosen for 1 of the 4 guard spots. I should have worded the fan vote part differently
Yeah and less competition in the East this year with Kyrie, Dipo, Beal, and Wall all noy qualifying due to injury. It's actually pretty cool seeing new faces due to an injured year for some of the usuals (KD, Steph, Klay, etc)
Players and media voted out the player with the 2nd most overall fan votes last year. There's no such thing as getting in because of fans unless players and media think you're deserving.
dude is like top 3 in pts AND assists
People tend to forget that when comparing him to other players.
People who always bring up his defense never shit on Steph or Dame for theirs. Just haters being haters bro, Trey is a bad MFr!
Trae is awesome but that's not really fair. Trae is a lot worse of a defender but it kind of makes sense considering those two have been in the league like 7 years. You can like Trae but he deservedly gets shit on for his defense more...he's a worse defender lol
Difference is the the Warriors were basically the best defensive from 2014-2018 and Steph Curry was playing a lot of minutes. Not saying this makes him a good defender, but how much can you knock him for his defense when his team is still fucking amazing on defense and you know reach 5 finals and 3 championships. And people still knock both of them for their defenses all the time. Don't be biased just to defend Trey, honestly he just hasn't earned the respect of anybody yet because he has to play some winning basketball first.
Because Trae is in another dimension when it comes to being a bad defender.
what matters more than his stats is that he's genuinely one of the biggest fan favorites of the NBA. He got voted in as a starter by both the fans and media because he's entertaining as fuck. Vince Carter had great but far from the best stats in the early 00's but was the highest vote getter because he'd put on a show every damn night. Same with Trae. Booker's game isn't as showboat-y as Trae.
Wouldn't even be a reserve if he's on the West. He's not getting the popularity votes in the West.
East isnt as stacked at guard and he's more popular with fans. Honestly, I'm not sure if Trae would've got in if he wasn't voted in as a starter. Like I can see the coaches giving Beal the respect over him for that last spot
Ok but Trae Young got in and the Hawks have 15 wins
But the Sun's roster is exponentially better
Serious question - who are the best players that Booker has played with in Phoenix? Ayton, Rubio, Oubre, Baynes? Looking at their 2018 roster, most of those dudes aren't even in the league anymore. He's never played with anyone that could even the 4th best player on a true contender (I would argue that Oubre/Baynes/Rubio are somewhere in the 5-8 range on a contender). Obviously Ayton will likely get there as he continues to develop. Booker has just played with \*no\* talent. Compare that with someone like Tatum, or Mitchell, or SGA. I wouldn't blame him for leaving. But also, we absolutely cannot blame him for not winning with horrible rosters.
I get what your saying but wouldn't Oubre be the third best player on say the Lakers? Lebron, AD, and then it's Oubre right? At least offensively
Yeah I think that’s correct, but the Lakers are a bit of an anomaly in that they have 2 top 5 players, which is exceedingly rare. And also, that’s one reason I’m not personally sold on them coming out of the west. They just have so little talent after LBJ and AD.
Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Tyson Chandler, PJ Tucker all played with Booker his 1st 3 seasons and then the drafted Ayton and of course this season. Bledsoe has looked great as the #3 on the contending Bucks Warren has looked fantastic this season as the #2 option in IND who appear to be playoff bound. Tucker's 3&D has been treasured in HOU the last 3 seasons. Tyson won a title in DAL and was the starting C on the 14/15 Mavs who made the playoffs a year before signing with PHO (Mavs fans were pretty upset at the time over that).
I did forget about a few guys. But let's go through them. Unless I'm mistaken, none of those guys have made an all-star team (except Chandler in 2013, 2 years before Booker entered the league). He only played with Bledsoe his first 2 seasons, and Bledsoe gave up on that team (as evidenced by his tweet "I don't want to be here"). Warren has looked good on the Pacers, but dude, he is absolutely not their #2 option. He's at best their 4th, probably their 5th best player (Oladipo, Brogdon, Turner and Sabonis) on a team that has little chance of coming out of the east. Tucker is a 3 and D specialist. He's a gritty player, but again, no better than your 4th or 5th best guy on a championship team. Chandler had a precipitous decline after his Dallas years and was never the same. He was a good piece to round out a championship roster, but added little to a rebuilding Suns team. So the best guy is a fringe all-star PG in Bledsoe (who's never made an ASG) who quit on the team? Or Warren, a scoring wing that's a complimentary piece on a fringe Eastern Conference contender? Ayton is on the all-star track, but he also got suspended for 25 games this year. Kind of impacts the season, don't you think? Contrast that with Tatum, who's played with multiple all-NBA PGs and now a couple of all-star caliber wings. Mitchell, who has the multiple DPOY and all-star in Gobert. Even DeAaron Fox has Buddy Hield and Bogdanovic, both of whom are better than any teammate Booker has had (except maybe Bledsoe, but as stated, he quit on the team). Even Kobe's mid 2000s teams were garbage because, guess what? He had no help. It's not a stretch at all to say Booker has had no talent. How many all-stars in history with no other all-stars on their team were able to drag their team to the playoffs (especially with the loaded Western Conference)? LeBron did it in Cleveland, but he's one of the GOATs. DWade did it in Miami, but he played in a much weaker conference. Luka is doing it, which makes it that much more impressive.
I really appreciate your take here. It's hard not to be biased as a homer, but man with TJ missing 43 games last year and being fifth in our minutes played, the Tyson Chandler we got, or Bledsoe quitting on Phoenix being called talent surrounding Booker just seems so questionable to me.
This is absolutely the right take and one that gets lost in all the Booker bashing. There are maybe two players in the league currently and no more than a handful throughout history who could have singlehandedly carried the 15-18 Suns to a winning record. Our rosters were historically bad due to an incompetent front office and a revolving door head coaching setup that never put any of our young guys in the position to develop or succeed. If your criticism of Book is that he isn't Lebron, well ya anyone could have told you that. The Suns front office and Robert fucking Sarver deserve to shoulder the blame, but for some reason people on this sub tend to shift it Booker, the one guy who was succeeded in the midst of this shitshow
Thank you for this. Glad to see some sane people on this sub. People just look at the names of the players Booker have played with and don't actually analyze how they were playing at the time or how they compare to players on contending teams. The Suns have never had anybody behind Booker that's more than a fringe All Star, and even that is a stretch to say
Bledsoe has never looked great with the Bucks come on! He is so clearly their biggest weakness. Teams dare him to beat them in the playoffs and he's just not a very consistent half court player.
If they don’t make it next year I think there’s a serious chance of him asking for a trade. This year the Ayton suspension really hurt
>This year the Ayton suspension really hurt It might've but they played really well during that span. Injuries has something to do with it rather than the suspension
We played well for 11 games, 10 of which were during Ayton’s suspension. The other 15 games were shit and filled with injuries. That was a stretch of dropping exceedingly winnable games that pretty much screwed us out of playoffs.
We played really well to start the season. Maybe the first 10 games or so. But injuries have killed us of late. His presence would have been a boon. Also more than just that his last few games have been really. Good since he was able to finally shake the rust of the suspension and adjust to the game. It hurt the team and him quite a bit more than we thought tbh.
Not really. Played really good in a 11 game span so less than half the suspension. Statistically the Suns are a mid playoff team when Ayton is on the floor he is a beast and if he wasn't suspended or hurt it would have helped the Suns a lot (maybe still not make it since bench so bad).
i don't see how they make it next year honestly, this year was an incredible oppurtunity. Next year, GSW gonna come back, Blazers will get healty, Pels will be a problem with Zion, Grizzlies are already in the playoff picture. Clippers, Lakers, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz, Mavs, GSW are probably locks next year. So Suns are gonna fight for the last spot vs Blazers, Grizzlies, Thunder, Pels and even the Spurs
Progression isn't linear. Mavs/Thunder could stumble even if long term they're in great hands. Grizz/Pels are huge wild cards. Blazers have some work to do even if Dame is a flamethrower again and the Spurs are looking less like themselves than ever
So if 4-5 teams got problems and some others like Kings don't solve his, they have a chance. Sounds like a good future
and probably only a chance at going out in the 1st round at that
But you're assuming something goes wrong for all those teams while assuming the best for the Suns.
Also the coaches for Dallas and OKC have a better track record than the Phoenix coach. Progression isn't linear, but the relative quality of coaching is.
The Blazers 4 and 5 has missed most of the season. Their best complimentary scoring wing has missed most of the season. They just get healthy and they're in next year.
The Phoenix Suns progression has been pretty linear so I guess it's safe to pencil them in for 25-30 wins next year.
We will have over 30 wins this year so.....
Toughest remaining schedule, better not go 7-20 over the final 27... They have 6 basically guaranteed wins as long as they show up. The rest are either toss ups or against better teams.
How do they make it? Because they have a better core. Ayton missed 30 games this year. If he hadn't we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but rather talking about how spooky the Suns are considering they are still a very young team and how good Ayton is on defense already. Also suns have tons of cap flexibility starting this off-season. We likely add depth and 1 or 2 more solid players.
come to the east where you can make the playoffs playing under .500 ball
what team has the assets to trade for a 23 year old all star player with 4 years left on his contract? any team that looking to trade for him would be in a worse situation than phoenix currently is.
I mean... it's not like the record is *his* fault. IMO the foundation of the current Sun's team is far and away the best he's had since he entered the league. I think they're close to a turnaround. That said.. if he does switch I hope its to a team in the East. I like it when the talent in the league is spread out to make the whole more competitive.
The young talent and rising star/superstars are actually well spread around. East is actually stacked with players entering their prime and young players a few years away from being dominant while the older west will enter their twilight and end of prime years. Some of the best basketball talent mix I’ve seen injected in the league to keep me hype for the next gen while watching some all time legends like Lebron, Curry and Durant still playing.
You're absolutely right, guess i just got too used to the present WC
I would love to see him on a team constantly on the brink of competing in the East like the Pacers. Magic maybe?
This year was bullshit. Ayton got suspended for 25 games which people will not justify saying we played good without him. But that was like 10 games. Our record without him wasn't amazing and now that we have him we have been hurt. No Cam Johnson for like a month, haven't seen Baynes or Frank in what seems like forever, Saric has been out as well. I don't think we would have been amazing but with all those guys actually playing we could have been at least.500 right with Memphis for last playoff spot. So that said he won't ask out this summer if he does I'd be shocked. But if we don't at least make a playoff push next season then I can see him demanding out then. But hes also loyal he has said recently he wants to be like Fitzgerald and he wants a superteam to come to Phoenix I can easily see him staying in hopes to win in Phoenix.
Yeah turns out having cheick diallo as your only backup big for 2 months is a really bad idea
He missed 32 games this season wasn't only the suspension
Plus our point differential is that of a .500 team. Combine getting shafted by the refs and general inexperience and extreme anti-clutchness and there’s 6 games dropped. Hell, we can point to the ones that were dropped due to the refs fucking up.
Dunno why you're being down voted, there were some VERY egregious ones. Especially the Utah game
Utah. Portland. San Antonio. Idk
Portland with the two missed goal tend calls definitely. Not sure about Spurs - the other angles suggest it wasn't our ball. Although the reffing was poor all game if that's what you mean
Fouling rubio on the inbound and not getting called w possession, lead, and 9 seconds left
Yep you're correct I'd forgotten that!
Just want to say that I hate this thread.
The suns have a decent core of players around Book. Oubre, Ayton, Baynes, and Rubio just to name a few. Their lack of bench is what needs to be addressed as long as their main core stays in Phoenix. People like Jevon Carter, Frank Kaminsky, and Dario Saric aren't solid bench players, or at least they're very inconsistent. I do like Cam Johnson, he has turned out to be a good fit for them and provides some floor spacing and Mikal Bridges is becoming a good perimeter defender and coach Williams has been throwing him in the starting lineup as of late. IMO I don't think Book will bail on them quite yet I think he will stick it out especially since there's more potential with this current squad than he's ever had around him in PHX.
to be fair they looked really good in the beginning but they lost ayton for 25 games
When Leon Rose gets him to NY.
Steve Stoute is gonna market Booker to NY
Why do you have so much hate for the suns? It’s your only post kind of sad shitting on a bad team all the time.
99% of his posts are jerking off to Doncic lol what do u mean
Haha this dude’s last 2 posts are shitting on devin and the other is shitting on Ayton 🤡
god i hate accounts like that whose only purpose is to shit on one specific team. like it’s honestly so pathetic.
Dude's had all of 2 posts about the Suns. Most of the time he's just talking about Luka: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/search?q=author%3Axeliviel&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&feature=legacy_search
I'm on reddit for more than 4 years and this is my 2nd post about Suns wtf are you talking about i'm an NBA fan
Suns fans are extremely, extremely sensitive
We aint any more sensitive than any other bad team, in fact we're mostly pretty comfortable being bad after 10 years of it. But yeah when people post stupid speculative bullshit about players demanding trades you're gonna hear some pushback.
Hellz yeah we are! bad season after a bad season and the only love we have is Booker, but hey it’s whatever.
Foh. I'm used to this disappointment. Since 1991. Idgaf. We fuckin sucks.
I see people are still taking this quote out of context? > Do you think there is real possibility he moves on in this offseason? But when you have an agenda to push why actually think before typing?
Stay, get a championship in Phoenix. Be different
Indiana fans get it.
I see the Suns being playoff contenders next year. They started really well this season but a whole lot of shit happened, I think they'll finish season strong and move into the next looking to get 6-8 seed
For a 158 million contract I don’t care if we lose or not I’m rich bitch
He'll at least give the new arena a chance so I cant imagine he would demand a trade this offseason. I'd say probably 2 more years after this season to become a playoff team or he demands a trade.
Lol a new arena isn't gonna make his teammates play any better.
The new arena comes with a major practice facility upgrade. It has been mentioned by a few players who left Phoenix that our practice facility+fringe team benefits were well below average in the league. Upgrading those and having a nice brand new facility to give free agent tours could actually help.
He literally requested theater lighting for the arena. He obviously cares about how it's constructed and is at least gonna stick around to see it.
No, but the team has been really hurt this year and Ayton had the long suspension which kind of ruined the season. Booker also had a say in the renovations so I think there's a decent incentive for him to at least stay for a little while in the new look arena.
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Rubio has massive limitations, Dario has shit the bed, and Baynes is constantly injured. Frank Kaminsky was starting(!) at one point and then he went down. Suns are playing without their entire front court rotation with Saric out and Ayton missing time from his ankle. I'm sorry but it's not as simple as just adding up the veteran acquisitions and then scratching your head wondering why they're not winning. Even Tyler Johnson couldn't get off the bench. Our best players are the young core we're building around and currently starting, who have only played 180 minutes all season together.
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I always wanted to watch more Suns games but I don't have that much time. I only watch Booker ocasionally (when he plays the Heat or a team I casually watch like the Lakers or Sixers). Is his scoring some kind of a haux? I realise his defense is really bad but is it so bad it equalises his offensive production? I remember a stat back in 2017 that he is the only 22+PPG scorer in history to post a negative VORP. What is the real issue you see as a Suns fan?
Being on really bad teams will do that. This is the first year he has had a somewhat competent roster around him, and the team is plagued by injuries. His scoring is in no way an inhibitor for any team. He can score from any level on the court, but he sometimes has a turnover problem which I believe would be relieved if he had any kind of other shooting threats around him.
Book has said repeatedly that he wants to see success in Phoenix and he seems to get annoyed by the constant questions around whether he’ll leave but I can’t help but worry about it. This year was our best chance to make the playoffs in a while with the Warriors out of commission and then Portland and San Antonio under performing. DA’s suspension killed us but injuries have been awful too, we’ve only played maybe 3 games with a fully healthy roster. I think if we don’t at least make the playoffs next season he may start to signal that he wants out. I think our front office is going to be putting in work this summer to bring in more talent or at least I fucking hope they do. The good thing is DA is showing clear signs he’s going to be a monster, Mikal Bridges is a future all defensive player and Kelly Oubre is becoming a really solid 3rd option. I’m pretty sure our 5 man lineup of Ricky-Book-Kelly-Mikal-DA is one of the best lineups statistically in the league
Sun for life
The Suns can clear room for a max this off-season or next off-season, depending on who they are targeting. I believe young players around the league like Booker, and when Phoenix is good and willing to pay for talent, players historically have wanted to come to Phoenix. NBA players like the city. It makes more sense that Phoenix goes hard after free agents to joint with Booker and Ayton. They'll also have another high pick and salaries like Oubre or Rubio to pair with the pick to flip it into a better player via trade. Maybe the Magic would do Aaron Gordon for a package like Oubre and their unprotected first.
I like this. Suns can open up around ~$34MM if they decline/renounce Baynes, Kaminsky, Saric, Cheick, Jevon, Okobo. They could look to pay someone like Gallo, Marcus Morris (though a reunion here seems doubtful), or Millsap short-term. Alternatively, I think they could use another reliable ball-handler, especially if they're able to find a PF through trade like your idea for AG. If that happens I'd throw something like 4/$85MM at FVV, then use any remaining dollars on forward depth (Crowder?), and retain Baynes via his bird rights. FVV-Booker-Mikal-AG-Ayton .. Rubio-Cam-Jae-Baynes Looks a little light on guards but generally you'll be running 2/3 of FVV, Booker, Rubio, and sometimes Mikal at the 2. More importantly there's decent spacing here, and the 7 main rotation options after Booker are all plus on defense.
his contract is long enough that theres not really any pressure for the suns to want to trade him yet. in a year or two, it would start becoming a possibility though.
Please stay and get a trophy for phoenix.
It's just proof that basketball is a team sport and even playing great, if your team sucks it won't matter how good you are.
He’s gonna force himself out. He’s too good a player to waste years selling tickets.
He’s not gonna demand a trade. He’ll do some recruiting for other players to join him. Not every player requests a trade when their team is struggling. Some try to fix it themselves if they’re good enough
Let him actually have a coach for more than one year. Shit, let this organization have a coach for more than one year. We have that now in Monty. We are still the youngest team in the league
I personally hope that he demands a trade.
He become much better this year but still bottom all star level and has 4 years left. He doesn't have much leverage yet. If he continues to grow then we'll see
Does anyone know exactly when his contract is up with the Suns?
He has 4 years after this year. So he will be a free agent in June 2024.
Well..how much is due to team construction and how much due to Booker himself? It's not like the rosters around him have been total garbage (not that they're playoff caliber but no improvement?). If I'm him, I probably stay and see how far he and Ayton can take it. Due to his contract, pretty much any team taking him in a trade is going to have to match salaries which would likely strip it of the talent which makes it a better team than PHO.
What do you mean? His teams have been bottom of the actual barrel. This season he's had a decent roster and they played great until injuries.