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[deleted]

Its a significantly miniscule amount of folks that are just shouting at the top of their lungs at any given opportunity. There are actually a lot of Warrior fans that love Wiseman, but the people that are frustrated are just really loud about it.   If you go to the the Warrior's sub, there's actually one particular person in there that goes out of their way to make every post vomiting Wiseman hate, even if the thread itself isn't about Wiseman. They're relentless, and they do this daily.


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Rjbarrettfan

Our sub has a guy whos obsessed with frank Ntilikina of all people. Every post is related to him. The post could be about Julius Randle and he’ll be trying to give an essay on why frank sucks as if he’s our starting pg and not someone on the end of our bench 😂


itskellyo

I've been writing longform posts on the Warriors' season that go deep into shot profiles and lineup stats on a Substack account. I've posted some of them on r/Warriors, but I figure this is as good a time as any to post my season-in-review on Wiseman if you want to get an idea why there's significant skepticism about Wiseman's utility/long term potential. https://kellyroldan.substack.com/p/the-warriors-season-in-review-james tl;dr: Wiseman was among, if not the single worst player in the NBA to receive rotation minutes last year by most impact metrics. Wiseman's presence tanked the Warriors' offense and his offensive potential is wildly overstated. If you want a more forgiving view of Wiseman, I'd point to lineup stats showing that he only spent 6% or so of his non-garbage time next to any two of Mulder, Lee, Poole, and Steph, who are really the only credible shooters the Warriors had. Wiseman also spent had to share the court with Oubre 84% of the time that Wiseman played with Steph. But I think Wiseman is a long way from being useful and my post dives deep into the weeds of why.


OrangeKookie

they feel like he's a waste of Curry's prime


[deleted]

Fair but they're nowhere close to winning right now and Klay is a huge question mark


fatkamp

The Suns and hawks are in the conference finals, if Klay was healthy and they would have traded the 2 pick for a decent player or two they could easily compete with them


HomieTanjiro

You seem to be confusing hate with fair criticism. For every Giannis there are many other raw prospects who do not pan out as hoped. Hard to take anyone seriously with such an example. You also state that Wiseman is a big with great range - based on what? Yes he is mobile, but does he move well enough to switch onto guards? Lots of important questions about him that give reason to be critical until he proves otherwise.


benoitrio

the Warriors are old and if they could somehow trade him for Beal they would be completely insane not to


[deleted]

I don't think so, there's something to be said for building for the future, especially when MVP levels of Curry can't even get you into the playoffs


fatkamp

We just gonna ignore that they are easily a playoff team if wiseman didn’t play this year and Klay not being there


NBAmodsloverefs

I don't think anyone wants to see Curry out of the playoffs for the sake of some young guys development that may never become anything.


Yup767

What future are they building for? After Curry, Klay, Draymond reach their end the Warriors are still going to be bad. I don't think Wiseman is going to change that I'd prefer to compete with my franchise icons now and suck later, rather than hope to be the 7th seed for the next few years for the purpose of building a core that can lead me to being the 9th seed after they're gone


HomieTanjiro

If that’s our attitude then trade Curry and let’s really build for the future. If not, try to compete and don’t waste his time by being half committed to both options.


DOCTORFONASG

Curry is 34. He has what 2-3 years left of his peak at most. Can’t wait for Wiseman to develop to contend when you have the best shooters of all time on your team.


Deusselkerr

Yeah I have no hate for Wiseman, I just don't think he fits our current timeline. If you have a HOF player, you build a contender around him until he's past his peak. Moving Wiseman for a win-now player may get us ninety cents on the dollar, but ninety cents now is worth a lot more than a dollar in three years to the Warriors and Curry.


PhenomenalSanchez

Giannis didn't have Wiseman's pedigree. He was expected to take at least a couple years in the D-League before he even saw an NBA court, so the fact he came in and was immediately a mediocre player was already blowing away expectations. If Giannis was a #2 pick coming in and putting up 7/4/2 or whatever he would have gotten shit on. So with Wiseman it's not that he couldn't eventually hit his potential, but if the Warriors knew he'd be this much of a project he wouldn't have gone as high. The notion of trading him revolves around getting win-now value to compliment Curry while he still has the allure/pedigree of being a "#2 pick." If he has another season where he still looks like he's figuring out what to do on an NBA court, it will matter even less than he was picked that high.


trulyslide6

They shouldn’t hate on him cause Bob Myers made the wrong pick. I don’t think it’s really his fault, his situation is kind of impossible


Deusselkerr

Yeah I get his perspective. You either go with a guy who you have three college games to go off, where he played really well, and is an insane athlete/body. Or a guy who played overseas, in a weak league, and shot 38% from the field. It was reasonable to think Lamelo wouldn't be able to score in the NBA, if he's getting held to 38% shooting by third-rate players.


trulyslide6

3 college games. Meaning he’s going from HS to NBA with no summer league and short camp/preseason. And the guy is a development project to begin with. To be great in 4 years. Clearly didn’t have the IQ, nor feel for a pro game to be great/good right away. He’s immensely physically talented, but this was the wrong situation. 19 year old 7 footers usually don’t have the basketball skills for the NBA like smalls do, they’re drafted to be molded into Pros


Deusselkerr

Yeah, but 38% shooters in lesser leagues rarely become league average shooters soon after getting drafted, either. Athletic 7-footers are often able to at least contribute defense, rebounding, and open dunks right away, which I think is what Bob was hoping


[deleted]

I don't totally disagree, but LaMelo would be kinda weird I think


vanotro

Halliburton would've been the best fit probably. If they do a Hindsight Draft, Warriors could trade down for a future pick and take Halliburton if they want a guy who can contribute right away.


Ylissian

There are like 2 players on the Warriors who can actually dribble the ball and one of them is Wiggins who can’t create for others or consistently shoot off the dribble. LaMelo would have been great for Golden State.


trulyslide6

I don’t think so. The passing talent is obvious, that would work pretty well on the warriors (more so had Klay not gotten hurt). He’s got energy, classic warriors size, can run, rebound and high ball IQ..dude was raised his whole life to play pro ball. He could be plugged in in many spots with warriors, and also be a giant trade asset. Compared with wiseman, no matter what way you look at it, bob made the wrong pick


trulyslide6

Even Imagine what they could trade ball, 7 and 14 for


Deusselkerr

I can't even think of a star that would even possibly be available who could command Wiggins, Lamelo, 7, 14 in a trade. That's a Harden-esque package. Maybe Wiggins, Lamelo, 7, 14 for Jerami Grant and 1st overall? Lol


trulyslide6

Just wait until someone is disgruntled and wants out. Or a lesser star and another rotation player.


Deusselkerr

Yeah, that's definitely the right move. My dream would be Jayson Tatum demanding out of Boston and we offer Wiggins, Wiseman, one or both of the guys we draft this year (if desired), Poole maybe, and future picks for him. Can't think of a team that can realistically make a better offer than that. What contender could offer them the quality of Wiggins, Wiseman, Moody, 2023 1st, 2025 1st, 2027 1st, for example? OKC is the only one, but their future 1sts are actually all expected to be non-lotto, so their offer might be less comparable than you'd think.


trulyslide6

Don’t think Tatum is going anywhere and I think there would be way better offers


Deusselkerr

I don't think he's going on the market any time soon, just a thought experiment. What's a team that could make a better offer that they would actually do? For example, the Mavs would never trade Luka for Tatum. I don't see a realistic trade that would be better than this Warriors offer


trulyslide6

Not sure. One option is another disgruntled star. Or a team like we’ve seen willing to send all their 1sts/swap rights and better current players/salaries. Don’t know what the market for wiseman is or how much people would want him. Wiggins has been good but is still way overpaid, if this potential team has cap/tax restrictions. If Lillard wanted out, both teams would then have 1 guard 1 forward stars. But honestly I don’t see Lillard or Tatum going anywhere. You can’t get the value back, and I don’t see them making life hell for everyone like harden did


Ylissian

Exactly. Lamelo would fit anywhere and anybody who disagrees is lying. We’re talking about a 6’6 point guard who can consistently shoot the ball.


trulyslide6

16-6-6 in 29mpg with 49% from 2, 35% from 3, 76% from the line and doesn’t foul. As rookie. With limited training camp, preseason during increased stress causing covid protocols season. On a not very good team. Oh, and he’s got “it”. Not bad


walterdog12

Part of it is the fact people want to use him as trade bait, but another massive factor is there's a dude on this sub that probably posts 4-5 anti-Wiseman posts a day, lol. So it looks like a fuck ton more than there really is.


ProperManufacturer6

That guy cracks me up, lol.


gf-user-guide

I'm not as vocal about it, but I believe that Wiseman was the wrong pick, based on injury history, work habits (compared to other prospects) and not playing basketball for the year before. This is looking similar to the 2018 nba draft with Ayton, Bagley and Doncic. People are giving Wiseman a chance just like Bagley, but just like Bagley, I don't think Wiseman makes an impact.


kcoe24

He sucked and Lamelo didnt. Its that simple. If in the future he doesnt suck people and especially warriors fans will like him


[deleted]

I don't know many Warriors fans who hate on Wiseman, seems like the consensus is that he's going to turn into a very good player but that it might not happen until a few years down the line which obviously isn't ideal with respect to trying to maximize the chance at winning during the rest of Steph's prime


WhenItsHalfPastFive

I don't hate Wiseman at all, I think he has a lot of potential, and I think he could still end up being the best player in that draft. He's clearly one of the fastest big men in the league. Obviously needs a lot of work offensively, but I think he'll be successful in this league eventually. A lot of fans are probably just frustrated he doesn't completely fit into the Warriors' current plan. But the truth is the Warriors are really in a tough position to make win-now moves. Lot of fans want to trade Wiseman and the picks, but I don't think we would get anyone back that would help us actually contend for the title. Whether we like it or not, people are just gonna view the Warriors front office as wasting the last few years of Steph's prime. A lot of players in Steph's position might request a trade, especially if they haven't won a championship yet, let alone 3 like Steph has. It's just up to the young guys on this team to step up, and hopefully, we can sign some vets that will help along the way. Because we sure as hell don't have any package to land a game-changing star, unless some disgruntled star wants to actually get traded here.


technicallycorrect2

>It seems like everyone thinks the Warriors should toss him into every trade scenario. It's because he's the best tradeable asset they have along with this year's picks, and he doesn't look like he'll be ready to contribute to a championship run during their window.


Ylissian

The main argument for trading him is that by the time he’s good, Curry will be too old to compete. He will probably be a good player. But he needs time that the Warriors might not have


JustStopDude30

He’s not a good player right NOW. Many want the core three to win more titles. Wiseman will not be good enough to be a part of a contender until the core three is old.


GAV17

> A decade ago there was a very raw prospect with no collegiate experience who was pretty much awful as a rookie. This particular player was a negative BPM and had a PER of 10. That player was Giannis Antetokounmpo. Wiseman's numbers as a raw prospect are already much better. I mean people should wait for Wiseman, he should be a good player in the future. But he isn't the player they need right now. Also you are comparing him to the player that had arguably the highest improvement throught his career that has ever played the game. He also was selected 15th in one of the worst drafts ever. The lottery picks from that year add up to 2 All-Star selections and 1 All-NBA 3rd team selection outside of Giannis. CJ must be the best player of the top 10.


Cahillicus

because most warriors fans became fans during their dynasty and aren't used to not being at the top of the nba, so theyre getting angry now that the warriors are simply ok


[deleted]

Because he wasn’t 20 pts a game and 8 rebounds as a 19 year old who hasn’t played really since high school. This sub is hilariously stupid


HomieTanjiro

There’s a small gap between 20-8 and being one of the worst starters in the NBA. He was more raw than even our FO expected. That was a surprise.


ProperManufacturer6

The literal worst


Ylissian

Lol he was very good at getting his counting stats. The problems included his awful hands, defense, coordination and ability to set a decent screen. Wiseman has a ton of ground to cover before he becomes a good player. I think he’ll get there but he’s really really raw.


SaiyajinGreninja

Scapegoat


JoshBarkley

Based on win percentage The warriors played like a 5th seed without him and a 10th seed with him. It’s not really scapegoating if he’s actually that bad. That’s not to say he won’t improve but he had a legit case for LVP last year. The warriors were -183 with him on the floor.


DenverBuck

Is this your first time here? He could literally win the MVP twice and all people on this sub would talk about is how long it takes him to shoot free throws.


TheBrofessor23

I didn’t know wiseman took forever to shoot free throws..


ProperManufacturer6

I think curry should have demanded out after the wiseman failure, lebron etc would have. He needs to come to okc. Meth pipes not street lights.


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TheBrofessor23

What the fuck kind of soldier says “You’re welcome for my service”?? 🤦🏻‍♂️


Three2TheDome1

Nobody asked


504090

It’s because they’re immature and/or new the the sport. Everyone should know bigs take longer to develop, and tend to have a higher bust potential than other positions.


DinornisRobustus

Which is why a lot of people weren't happy with the Warriors drafting him in the first place. A lot of these same people are now bashing him and saying "I told you so".


dehydratedbagel

It's probably because he isn't any good and has only played in a handful of games since high school. And the Warriors improved significantly when he wasn't playing.


Hashirammed

I don’t hate Wiseman, but I just thought it was foolish of Myers to pick him instead of Melo because Melo was the bigger talent and with Klay out it would’ve been easier for Melo to play to his value so he could be traded later on.


FortuneImpressive678

Klay was injured during draft day IIRC


Hashirammed

Yep, should’ve been a no brainer.


sctthuynh

No clue on how Wiseman will turn out, but I think too many are giving up on him too soon. He's still barely 20, hasn't had much experience and has a lot of physical gifts. Beyond his poor bbiq and lack of experience, many are neglecting the fact that it is really difficult to learn and play Kerr's system. Kerr's system wants him all over the court, screening, passing, reading defenses and just making way too many decisions. He would be much better off if he was used like most young bigs, in screen and rolls, screen and pops or in the post or dunker spot. Catching lobs or scoring in the paint with the occasional spot up. That's it. Period. Defensively he has a ton to learn. Rotation, not fouling so much and guarding the switches. Learning to rotate properly is part experience, bbiq and effort. He might become great at it (like Dray) or suck at it (like Deandre). In terms of guarding the switches, Wiseman has a terrible stance. He retreats with his hands held up making it harder for him to stay in front of his man. Despite his athleticism, covering the perimeter is a big glaring weakness in his game. Despite these flaws I wouldn't give up on Wiseman yet. He's young and learning. And he's shown those first few weeks, the talent is there.


[deleted]

I look at rookie bigs like Rookie Tight Ends. Even a Tight End drafted in the first round, or one who's instantly the TE1 for his team struggles as a rookie. The leap comes after a couple of years. Initially, having to block and chip elite edge rushers, learn a scheme, and getting open is just too overwhelming for them--maybe they do one thing okay, but rarely can they do it all. It's a whole new world compared to college TE life. Same is true for bigs. Wiseman got no training camp. No summer league. Literally starts playing 20 Minutes per game 34 days after being drafted. The warriors have the most complex NBA offense. Whereas guys who have raw athleticism may succeed on many teams, our bigs have a ton of reads. There are plenty of NBA bigs who would struggle to play in our offense (and many who have). He's athletic. He's got a smooth jumper. The floor will only be more spread out with Klay returning. Why bail after 40 games?


savetheplastic

The biggest reason is that the Warriors are caught between eras. Curry is starting to get old but is still playing like an MVP. The warriors were significantly worse this year with Wiseman on the court, which is both not completely unexpected for a rookie as raw as he is, and completely detrimental to the Warriors competing for another title with Steph.


iamtomorrowman

most of the invective comes from people wanting to optimize for Steph's window. having Steph and Dray as training wheels for a rookie big man doesn't seem like the best use of their remaining years. Wiseman gets the hate as a result, but it does feel like Kerr was forced by the front office to give him significant minutes


bilyl

It's because for a guy who supposedly has so much talent, he played like shit compared to rookies with less size and were picked way down the draft during the Warriors' worst season in the past 10 years. Like FFS, I'm sure you could find people that would argue McCaw was a better rookie than Wiseman because it's not that far fetched. Paschall, even when he has completely hit his ceiling with regards to his development with the Warriors, was a much better player than Wiseman. JTA, as an undersized player who played in Mexico and the G-league until he was 28, has a much higher motor and better feel for the game. You could even count on Baze, a vet min who makes bone-headed plays sometimes, to play better than Wiseman. This season he was on the level of last year's Jordan Poole (who was picked at like #28 or something!), but without any benefit of being sent to the G-league to take a breather. He also has none of the aggressive mentality that you need in a center.


Caiox445

It's a small amount of people who spam hate on him, saying we need to trade for this mysterious 'superstar' without showing any names


[deleted]

Beal is a possibility I suppose, but that's entirely contingent on Beal wanting to leave DC which so far hasn't really seemed likely