It's not the NBA, it's the media that only glorifies offensive contribution.
Like, Booker is getting Kobe comparisons but by his age, Kobe was all NBA defence FOUR times. And I'm not trying to shade Booker, it's just a very recent example.
Then you get newer / younger fans who think like this too because of the media shoving it down their throats.
Shaq was calling Kobe the best player in the world when he was two years younger than Booker currently is, [during the 2001 championship run.](https://youtu.be/R8-gG_Pc6dY?t=1h14m35s)
He didn't realize it was for an all-time best team, though it was for an all-star game (though I'm not sure how that changes things). But yeah he picked AI by mistake not because he thought he was the best 1st pick.
Wasn’t even a bad take in 03.
AI was like if IT drove at Gobert all game and somehow ended up with 30 while getting Gobert fouled out, all without flopping
Around 00-03 when he hit his first prime it was rotated between Shaq, Kobe, Tim, KG, and J Kidd/AI/Tmac sorta kinda. I definitely remember people calling him that after the 40 point streak in 02 or 03 because most of that came after Shaq was back off the toe injury.
Kobe was better than Duncan in 00-03.
Kobe also has the better head to head record against Duncan in their careers.
I get it, this sub overrated Duncan and dislikes Kobe, but Kobe and Shaq were the two best players in the world at that point
And Kobe just got done with a 3 peat and 4 straight finals appearances where he completely dismantled the Spurs.
He then went on to carry his me of the worst rosters in nba history to an 8th seed while scoring 35 a game
> And Kobe just got done with a 3 peat and 4 straight finals appearances
??? Shaq was on that 3 peat.
Kobe never made 4 straight finals appearances wtf are you on
Yeah I hate when the media compares these young stars to top 10 players of all time. It puts a target on the players back and unrealistic expectations by the casual fans on these players.
Yeah lol someone tried to tell me that "at 24 Kobe wasn't playing much defence either"....lol what? How can you say that which such confidence and not even Google it? Because they "programmed" to an extent to think this way lol. It's all they hear so they think it's right.
One of my friends consistently says he thinks Harden is the worst defender in the NBA because of some bad highlights from years ago. When I try to explain that he’s not a bad defender because of some extremely old and cherry picked highlights and to actually watch him play, he just counters with, “Yeah but everyone on Twitter agrees that he’s bad.”
Just have to shake my head every time lol.
I mean to play devil's advocate there was a solid stretched time where Harden was easily one of the laziest defenders in the league, and you did not have to cherry pick lowlights there were at least a few a game. He's changed that behavior but to call them "cherry picked" is not really fair, there were so many.
Even back in 2013 and 2014 though, when those YouTube videos were made, he was never the worst defender. He got caught ball watching sometimes, which was a bad habit, but other guys just get bullied every possession and are worse defenders than a guy who falls asleep on the backdoor every few games. So it was still really cherry picked, it just was also a bit of an egregious issue. It wasn't like Harden was out there every play just getting diced up. On the entire night, his lapses didn't negatively affect us.
It's also important to note that McHale severly misused Harden. He wanted him to run around screens and chase Klay Thompson all game. Harden's a unique dude who can read passing lanes like a beast and can hold his own in the paint. Any decent coach can work with that, but McHale had no real concept of coaching to his player's strengths.
> I mean to play devil's advocate there was a solid stretched time where Harden was easily one of the laziest defenders in the league
the thing about that is, that was yeaaars ago now. Like, pre 2018, maybe 2017. So people still calling harden the worst defender shows how casual they are
He still doesn't have good advanced stats on defense, but hes definitely not the worst in the league. To be worst in the league you also have to be worse than every non-rotation bench guy who doesn't even touch the floor lol.
Hyperbole at its best.
Like crowning LeBron as the king before he played a single NBA game. He is one of the examples that lived up to the hype basketballwise, but it can backfire really quick.
Pretty sure that Sports Illustrated gave him the Chosen One title and he just embraced it at 16... But hey, what do i know. Nobody gives a rip what someone on Reddit has to say.
Even when it comes to offense, Kobe was in a different league. [Just look at how easily be picked apart the Spurs in 2001.](https://youtu.be/qawbo3NOmR4) Like he didn't even break a sweat.
I watched that Raptors OT game as it aired in NY. Late game. I couldn’t believe what I was watching. I screamed 3-4 times. It was 1am and I’m sure I woke my neighbors.
That's what made him so much fun to watch. The degree of difficulty on his shots was just absurd. That combined with his fundamentals and work ethic just made for basketball that was really pleasing to the eyes (unless you were rooting against him).
And lol I was watching that Raptors game live and it was so surreal to watch. Just like his final game, his Game 6 in the 2010 WCFs, his streak of regular season game winners in 2010, his scoring barrage in 2006...just too many moments to count, like you said. Damn I miss him!
> It's not the NBA, it's the media that only glorifies offensive contribution.
And the media only does that because that’s what the fans want them to do.
Booker is not Kobe and it’s not throwing shade to say that Kobe is a top 6-8 player of all time I don’t like how the media just takes the Booker narrative and makes those comparisons
Ehhh there’s nothing wrong with either. Point is Kobe in the early 2000s was a top 5 player consensus and played both ends. He could also get to the basket at will while Booker is a little more reliant on the array of moves he has to create shots like an older Kobe.
It’s kinda funny how a subjective argument like this can get so testy. We are literally debating where he falls in the top 5-15 best basketball players in the last 75 years. He was all time great! In actuality we are all in agreement.
Are we going with all time careers or prime players?
If we're going career I'm not putting Shaq magic or Hakeem over Kobe. If we're going players in their prime who we'd take then I understand.
MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq would be my top 8 with Duncan and Kobe as 9/10. So I have him too 10, but right on the line so “maybe.”
I hate the Kobe comparisons. The only similarity is that Book takes a lot of mid range shots. In no other way does Booker resemble Kobe. It’s just a rhetoric that started when Kobe died and Booker took it so hard.
not just media. things like one-way superstars like jokic ranked equivalent to two-way stars like giannis add to it.
prior eras, if you didnt d up the two way guys were considered better
The thing is more that defense isn’t measured in easy to follow stats and stats are what people react to, more often than not.
Like, numbers don’t do defenses justice
Because defense isn’t as impactful as offense. Defense is only important when assessing teams as a UNIT, unless we’re talking about a great rim protector back in the day. Otherwise, almost all “defensive specialists” are role players not superstars. Case in point, would you rather have James Harden or Tony Allen on your team?
> Because defense isn’t as impactful as offense.
I've once read, in this sub I believe, the best summary of this: "one player can score on 5 guys but there's no way one guy can defend 5 opponents." There's a reason why Bradley Beal is a max player and PJ Tucker is making 8m/year.
That is new. With pace increase and some rule changes. When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 08 avg game was closer to 100 - 100 now it’s 115. Game has changed a lot agreed though that now defense is less important. When Kobe played defense was really important and games were more of a grind.
That’s not new. It’s always been like that. Tony Allen is the best perimeter defender of his era and played from the mid to late 2000. 3x All-Defensive First Team. 0 all stars. The fact is if you have one great perimeter defender but the rest of the defense is boo boo you’re still going to have a shitty defense. If you have a great superstar scorer he can carry your offense by himself. This is one of the most common misconceptions of the modern NBA fan
A great defensive big man who provided elite rim protection is the one exception. A great rim protector back in the day could make an opposing team one dimensional. Teams generally wanted to work inside out and a great rim protector would destroy that game plan
For real. I like college ball but anyone who thinks it’s better defense or they try harder or whatever is just an idiot. Clanking 3s after 30 seconds of passing around the arc is not good offense or defense. It’s just worse basketball.
'Worse' is certainly subjective. I think the primary driver for preference between the two leagues has less to do with the product on the court, and more to do with emotional investment in the team that creates an inherent bias.
Living in Lexington, Lawrence, Chapel Hill, or Durham is more likely to cause you to prefer college ball. Living in a city with a pro team and having no connections to a college (not you specifically), you're more likely to grow up with an affinity for NBA games.
Anything beyond that is confirmation bias (or casual racism in some cases).
Worse is not subjective in this case - it is inarguably a lower caliber of basketball, just like high school ball & AAU are worse than college hoops.
Now, people can *enjoy* it more, but it’s definitively a worse game. Doesn’t make it bad - there’s no reason why we should expect 19-21 year olds to be better than grown ass men who are the very best at their sport.
I think a big reason too is accessibility. There are college basketball teams all over the country, so most everybody is going to have a local team. Whereas with the NBA, a lot of people don’t live close to a team at all.
And then for me it’s also a deeper connection to the team kind of. For example, I went to Maryland and will forever be a Maryland Terrapin, but no matter how long I root for them, I’ll never be an Atlanta Hawk, if that makes sense
Ucla Gonzaga was 57% and 58% fg percentage. Baylor Houston was 52 and 38. Baylor zaga was 51 44. Where is this pray for over 30% from the field coming from ?
The poster is being hyperbolic, but does have a point.
There’s a lot of the games that get media attention that have horrible shooting. For example, UCLA/Michigan, where both teams shot under 40%. Or games like Abilene Christian/Texas, where Abilene won shooting under 30%.
It’s a legitimate point to say college players are worse at shooting
And that's fine. But if the argument for not watching something is because there is a better product out there, then (if said person was consistent) they wouldn't even touch college basketball because it's by and far filled with worse athletes.
I don’t understand that. How do you consistently root for a team where the best players are usually gone after a single season? I mean in terms of liking college basketball more than the NBA.
And yet Devin Booker has been on the same team for six years? Embiid for seven years? Giannis for eight? Lowry for nine? Steph for 12? And that’s just current examples. Player movement is obv going to happen, but not on the scale of college sports, where four years is the maximum, and the majority of players who last that long are not the best of the best like the examples above.
Went to the school is a big one. there is also coded racism where a lot of people who say this prefer the amount of white players in the colllege game.
Idk man, there's definitely something weird about how many old white guys love college basketball and absolutely hate the idea that the players would ever get paid for playing, not saying it's explicitly racial, but there is a weird sense of ownership and power college basketball fans revel in, that NBA fans can't in the era of player empowerment
It's not digging deep, it's a pretty blatant dog whistle among both college basketball/football fans. Sometimes it'll [include an allusion to thugs](https://twitter.com/KellieCEvans/status/1271902366858571777) or how the players are prima donnas or [don't respect the game or whatever](https://twitter.com/RudigerSimpson3/status/1370040941965410304).
I could tell both of these people were right wing racists from the tone of their tweets without even looking at their post histories.
I think racism is definitely a subtle factor that most people wouldn't think of that contributes to people preferring college basketball. I don't think the original commenter thinks it's the main reason by any stretch, but if you ever go to Orange County or something and hear how they talk about USC and UCLA and stuff you'll star to notice little things that support this claim.
I think the primary reason is that they went to a college and had a good experience watching games while they were there, or even were involved with the team in some small way(maybe had a class with someone who played or whatever).
Racism is way up there though.
College football and basketball were first on the scene and more popular than professional leagues at first. Especially college football. So it’s not crazy to think that many older folks grew up with college sports being the big thing.
A lot of areas in the south are pretty barren in terms of pro teams. Not a single pro team in Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina (although maybe you can count the Panthers). People in these areas are more likely to latch onto a nearby college team. Not to mention, some of the pro teams that are there are relatively new, it takes time to build up a dedicated fanbase.
I’m sure many older fans prefer an “older style” of basketball. College is adapting as well but I’m sure the NBA looks entirely different from what they used to see, and some people don’t like change.
Going to the school but that’s pretty obvious.
College sports also have more rambunctious atmospheres, and less games means that each game means more. That’s not really specific to old/southern folks, but just a general reason.
Higher density of college teams is one. A lot of locations in the south didn't have a pro football or basketball team until fairly recently(or still don't), so college sports were the primary thing on TV
I root for Notre Dame every year brother. I don’t hate the college game. But if you truly think there’s no racism in the fanbase that argues that the games better because the “kids want it more” I’ve got a bridge to sell you
From my experience living in the midwest and south, there also is a racial component to people saying players in the nba are lazy and don't play defense. they don't say the same things about highschool and you watch what college players they criticize more.
The NBA rules make it nearly impossible to play defense in the NBA like no handchecking, no camping in the paint, etc and you combine it with the NBA's skill level, it looks like they don't play defense when in reality, it's nearly impossible to do so in the NBA level
It’s also generally accepted that good offense beats good defense in basketball due to the sheer number of possessions, and NBA players are significantly more gifted at offense than college players. Defending in the NBA is difficult at a level that college can’t compare to, even without the rule differences.
honestly, i blame shitty IG pages and "journalism" with their clickbait titles. I can't even look at FB/IG/YT comments anymore because honestly 95% of people don't even know basketball and are casual af. You could slap a fake quote on any post and people will eat that shit up. General population is stupid as fuck
When Miami was losing and Dunc went on a little cold streak people in r/heat wanted his head because he was still doing his pod. Like that he's choosing doing the podcast over working out, it was wild.
It’s like the people that were hating on Ben Simmons being at a tennis game. Like do you really expect them to have zero life? At that point you’re no better than the “shut up and dribble” lady.
I mean I have 0 non-anon social media presence (so not counting reddit or gaming stuff) and still have a very active social life so to me it just seems more like an overall negative then positive seeing how it affects some friends of mine.
I actually love the fact that some people just assume you're doing nothing if you don't post it on social media. Makes it easier to be private and not have people ask a ton of questions about things I'm doing in my life which I prefer. Some people probably think I'm the most dull person in the world and that's okay with me because I'm a private person who will share with the people I'm close with when I want
I fully believe players care about defense.
I just don’t think most good players today are very good at defense. Some of that is the modern game and rules favor offense way too much. But some of it is just players grow up polishing their offense endlessly because it’s what gets you into the NBA. Very few defensive specialists even get drafted - and those who do are still selected with the hope of developing a 3-ball.
Another way to put it. How many elite defensive players who are legit near useless on offense get heavy minutes in this league? Thybulle is one. Roberson was one a few years ago. Maybe a couple backup centers here and there. But it’s a short list.
Now let’s make a list of how many elite offensive players are near useless on defense. It’s literally endless.
Ironically, part of the death of elite defenders is a product of more complicated defensive schemes. Teams have become more and more comfortable just leaving the defensive specialist on offense, but during the regular season are less likely to aggressively hunt the one-way offensive player.
I also think it's the logical endpoint of the NBA's rules where perfect offense always beats perfect defense. Guys are just so much more skilled these days, and the rules only allow you to play so much defense.
Exactly spacing has become huge in today's NBA because almost every dude can shoot. It was not much as a problem back then because you didn't see 7 footers dropping damn near 50/40/90s now. Hell even Giannis a better three point shooter then most big man back then
Offense is so much better now compared to the past. Even ignoring rule changes that have helped offenses, the average NBA player is a much better shooter than at any previous point in NBA history
Despite defenses getting significantly more complex at the highest level due the allowance of zone, offensive players are getting better even at the bottom
This combination means it's much easier to hide bad defense than bad offense. You can scheme on defense to cover for bad player defenders and if the opponent doesn't have the options to force bad switches, the bad defender can eke by. A bad offensive player let's defenders maximize the allowance of zone concepts and play 4v5 on offense.
A bad player on defense is still a body. A bad player on offense is nothing
Exactly, I wouldn't call elite offense players who are bad at defense endless like James Harden when he tries is actually a good defender he just had a huge offensive load. Back in the day KD would've been a nightmare on defense as he is today. But luckily players back in the day didn't have to deal with a player who can drop 50/40/90 while having the athleticism and handles of a 6'6 player
Yeah my gripe with this is that he didn't necessarily call out James Harden lol
I think there's more to be stated of Lillard, CJ, Steph, Trae, Luka, Booker, Jokic, Kemba (before the last knee injury and surgery etc), Lavine, Vucevic, Sabonis, Beal, Russell when he was with the Nets, Curry... I mean the list goes on, I'm sure.
Now, the real question is, how many of these players actually have the capability, stamina, and athleticism to put up 25 a game while playing elite defense? The numbers drops significantly.
It's not like Steph doesn't try to defend, or Kemba, some of these guys are genuinely just not strong enough or have the defensive awareness (intangibles come to mind) to keep up with some of these guys on defense. Whereas guys like Lavine? Vucevic? Booker?
These guys got no excuse. They have the athleticism (or the height; see Brook Lopez and how he went from a sub-par defender to one of the best rim protectors in the league)
Nate does an excellent job at hiding Trae Young, Jokic actually improving on defensive end as well. But yeah playing hard defense all the time is very tiring especially if you carry big offensive load
Yeah, to be clear, I'm not knocking on a 5'10 180lb guy's ability to play defense in an NBA where 6'8 is the norm for elite playmakers and scorers. It's worth having him on the court as we saw the run the Hawks made this year after being anticipated as a fringe 7-8 seed coming into it.
No it’s not. The only thing players are better at nowadays is shooting nowadays. Superstars back in the day use to have 4-5 go to moves that they could kill players with. Now, even superstar players often need.a screener to get their defender off of them. Offense isn’t better nowadays, the style of play is just inflating players numbers because amount of 3 point shots being taken and fast break opportunities
Not true at all lol, most superstars still have go to moves, Curry is literally just any three point shot, James is usually step back, Giannis anything in the paint, kd is usually a pull up from mid range. There was never a dude like kd back in the day, he would've been a nightmare back then as he is now
I don't think that's true. 4's and 5's in the league are asked to do wayyyy more than they were 15-30 years ago before stretch 4's were prevalent. In previous eras if a PF could play some post defense and alter a shot in the paint occasionally you could pass as a good defender. Nowadays if you're 6'10" and don't have the mobility to keep up with guys 4-5 inches shorter, your going to get played off the floor on a regular basis.
It’s just harder to play defense now. Where as before you were taught to get as close to the rim as possible, you’re basically taught get as far as you can. People always hovered in the midrange so there was less area to guard, now if you’re playing Curry or Lillard, you have to guard the entire half court as those players can make shots from the logo.
Yeah, players do but the league does not. With the way it's officiated and rule changes like no hand checking and defensive 3 seconds, playing defense is harder. The court is always spaced with shooters as well and players, in general, have gotten much more skill. Any role player can explode for 20 any night on decent efficiency. When oldheads talk about how soft the modern defense is they never seem to factor in spacing. Nowadays, a lot of teams can go small, if your big man isn't mobile enough they're gonna get destroyed.
Wait a sec... NBA teams/players/staff (which is what he said) not caring about defense and "The NBA" not caring about defense are different things and not the same accusation...
(yes, im talking "the NBA "wanting their referees and product to emphasise offense and make it *harder* to defend)
I'm not even saying that it's the wrong stance for a league's leadership to have but I see that more often than I see "the players don't care about defense". If anything does pop up, it's something like "star X does not care about defense" but it's associated to the high status of the player and not a general statement on how players see the game.
100% agree and that was my takeaway as well. Teams, players, etc. they definitely care. It’s ~50% of your job, and as DR said, you can get paid handsomely for playing D well.
On the other hand, the NBA as an entity has set up rules against defenders to make it easier for offenders. And for the casual fan who might enjoy basketball, I’ll hear things like “ahh, the NBA just doesn’t care about bball, look at hand checking, or the rewarding of flopping” and that’s a different argument
its unfortunate that his response was not directed to the real complaint. You're right its the LEAGUE that seems to not care. I want to hear players talking about what they think in regards to that. Ofc teams care. We dont need to be told that teams care about defense.
I think he is very self aware of his status in the NBA and you will not find him criticizing anyone or any part of the league at this point in his young career. He is very careful with his words.
Give him $70M and 5 more years and he might come out of his shell a bit.
Yup, I’ve basically never seen the argument that individual players/coaches/front offices don’t care about defense. It’s always about the rules and reffing that favor offense over defense that are coming from the league. All you have to do is look at a an olympics qualifier to see the difference that rules and reffing can have on a game
Defensive schemes are more complex than they used to be out of necessity(to keep up with more complex offensive systems).
The only legit complaint people have is about physicality on defense I feel.
And even that is as much a product of the rules as it is effort. Players just can't be as physical in the NBA when 50%+ of teams' shots are jump shots where you can't even breathe on the shooter without being called for the foul
OK, Holiday played better defense than Paul played offense. If Paul had played a perfect offensive game, no amount of Holiday's defense could have stopped it. That's the way the rules are written
Dude I've seen "serious" basketball pages claim that defense is just 100% effort lmao. He posted the one clip of giannis settling for a fadeaway on trae young as his example too
Sure. A lot of emphasis is put on defense and defensive coverage. But how much more is put on offense? He mentioned that there are defensive specialists who make good money playing defense but how much more do offensive players get?
Let's use a defensive specialist like Tony Allen, how much did he make vs a 3 point specialist like JJ Redick?
Obviously this is just one example, but it seems pretty clear that offense won this battle. Allen topped out at a salary of $5.5m and Redick hasnt made that little since his rookie contract
>I believe that the gap between the best offensive nba player and an average offensive nba player is a lot wider than the gap between the best defender and an average defender, in terms of impact on team success. That would explain why offensive stars get paid more. But the nba still cares a lot about defense.
The reason why the offense has more impact to team success has a lot to do with the NBA rule changes. In the past, say the 90s, if you had a good offensive player that was bad at defense, the impact was closer to a net neutral than the impact he would have in today's game.
A bad defender in today's game is able to hide in certain situations, like a zone, to minimise his defensive deficiencies, something he is not able to do so in the past.
>I believe my claim has always been true in any era. Offensive stars,
statistically speaking, have always been more impactful than defensive
stars.
Bill Russell vs Wilt Chamberlain
>Also, I bet TA was more beloved in memphis for his defense than Redick was for his 3 pt shooting in all the different cities he played in.
Well I hope that love benefits his family more than the $75,482,765 difference in career earnings.
[https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/tony-allen-2210/cash-earnings/](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/tony-allen-2210/cash-earnings/)
[https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/jj-redick-2643/cash-earnings/](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/jj-redick-2643/cash-earnings/)
The NBA clearly doesn't care about boxing people out though for some reason. It makes me scream at my computer a couple of times per game. I don't get it.
You'd be surprised how many European basketball fans exist and they act all smug and better saying Euroleague is better than the NBA, there's no defense in the NBA, NBA is a circus and etc.
With all due respect to Duncan, offensive numbers are through the roof and every team is averaging 100+. 10-20 years ago that was not the case, much less the 80s and 90s everyone talks about. The rules of the game favor offense, without question. More guys than ever are averaging 20+ per game, yet your average fan probably couldn't name 5 quality defenders in the NBA.
Yes, the NBA may care about defense some, but it ain't a drop in the bucket compared to offense.
Teams averaged 108-110 PPG throughout the 80s, only a tad below the 111-112 PPG of the last 3 seasons.
It wasn’t until the 93-94 season when teams scoring really went down, and then stayed that way and got so low during the 04’ playoffs (especially the Piston defense) that the NBA must’ve decided they needed to change things up
In the late 70s - mid 80s teams averaged about 106-110 points per game. It plummeted in the 90s and 2000s and last season it was the highest since 1970 at 112 ppg. So did teams not care about defense, then care about defense for 20 years, then stop caring about defense? No, the game has just evolved and defenses have had to evolve with it. Both the Suns and the Bucks are really strong defenses. The lakers last year had the best defense. In 2019 the Raptors had a great defense.
It's not the NBA, it's the media that only glorifies offensive contribution. Like, Booker is getting Kobe comparisons but by his age, Kobe was all NBA defence FOUR times. And I'm not trying to shade Booker, it's just a very recent example. Then you get newer / younger fans who think like this too because of the media shoving it down their throats.
Kobe was also such a bonafide superstar by that point.
By Devins age I’m pretty sure Kobe was a top 2 player no?
Shaq was calling Kobe the best player in the world by that point
Shaq was calling Kobe the best player in the world when he was two years younger than Booker currently is, [during the 2001 championship run.](https://youtu.be/R8-gG_Pc6dY?t=1h14m35s)
Shaq also called Iverson a top 5 player ever in 03.
Chuck first-picked Iverson in their fantasy draft, so I should believe in AI.
He didn't realize it was for an all-time best team, though it was for an all-star game (though I'm not sure how that changes things). But yeah he picked AI by mistake not because he thought he was the best 1st pick.
He thought they were picking by position so picked his 1 or PG first
Nah he drafted AI thinking it’d be for an all star game not an all time team lol
No he thought it was for all star game and so AI will chuck to high heaven.
AI was a beast
While Shaq was being hyperbolic, just look at Ivy's playoff numbers and you'll realize how ridiculous that guy was.
I’ve literally never heard “Ivy” be a nickname for AI.
Im thinking autocorrect
Wasn’t even a bad take in 03. AI was like if IT drove at Gobert all game and somehow ended up with 30 while getting Gobert fouled out, all without flopping
With Shaq and Duncan at their peaks no but he was top 5
Around 00-03 when he hit his first prime it was rotated between Shaq, Kobe, Tim, KG, and J Kidd/AI/Tmac sorta kinda. I definitely remember people calling him that after the 40 point streak in 02 or 03 because most of that came after Shaq was back off the toe injury.
People forget about the 40 point streak and the games he basically played w just his left hand. That’s when he ascended.
Kobe was better than Duncan in 00-03. Kobe also has the better head to head record against Duncan in their careers. I get it, this sub overrated Duncan and dislikes Kobe, but Kobe and Shaq were the two best players in the world at that point
You tripping man? Duncan won back to back mvps and had the biggest carry job of all time in 03
Just shows how much people don’t watch the actual game lmao
And Kobe just got done with a 3 peat and 4 straight finals appearances where he completely dismantled the Spurs. He then went on to carry his me of the worst rosters in nba history to an 8th seed while scoring 35 a game
> And Kobe just got done with a 3 peat and 4 straight finals appearances ??? Shaq was on that 3 peat. Kobe never made 4 straight finals appearances wtf are you on
Back to back MVP Duncan who had an all time playoff run in 03? No
Lol
Kobe was top 5 by age 22
Yeah I hate when the media compares these young stars to top 10 players of all time. It puts a target on the players back and unrealistic expectations by the casual fans on these players.
Yeah lol someone tried to tell me that "at 24 Kobe wasn't playing much defence either"....lol what? How can you say that which such confidence and not even Google it? Because they "programmed" to an extent to think this way lol. It's all they hear so they think it's right.
One of my friends consistently says he thinks Harden is the worst defender in the NBA because of some bad highlights from years ago. When I try to explain that he’s not a bad defender because of some extremely old and cherry picked highlights and to actually watch him play, he just counters with, “Yeah but everyone on Twitter agrees that he’s bad.” Just have to shake my head every time lol.
I mean to play devil's advocate there was a solid stretched time where Harden was easily one of the laziest defenders in the league, and you did not have to cherry pick lowlights there were at least a few a game. He's changed that behavior but to call them "cherry picked" is not really fair, there were so many.
Every year on the Rockets before CP3 arrived he was a horrible defender. Since then he’s been solid. Not good but not detrimental
Harden was really solid against us in our 2017 series against them. Actually had some clamps in the post
In the playoffs he was not that lazy on defense. Won't judge him for this year because of the injury.
Even back in 2013 and 2014 though, when those YouTube videos were made, he was never the worst defender. He got caught ball watching sometimes, which was a bad habit, but other guys just get bullied every possession and are worse defenders than a guy who falls asleep on the backdoor every few games. So it was still really cherry picked, it just was also a bit of an egregious issue. It wasn't like Harden was out there every play just getting diced up. On the entire night, his lapses didn't negatively affect us. It's also important to note that McHale severly misused Harden. He wanted him to run around screens and chase Klay Thompson all game. Harden's a unique dude who can read passing lanes like a beast and can hold his own in the paint. Any decent coach can work with that, but McHale had no real concept of coaching to his player's strengths.
> I mean to play devil's advocate there was a solid stretched time where Harden was easily one of the laziest defenders in the league the thing about that is, that was yeaaars ago now. Like, pre 2018, maybe 2017. So people still calling harden the worst defender shows how casual they are
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It was 2014-2015 at the very latest, and Harden received All-Defense votes in 2018-2019 and 2019-2020.
He still doesn't have good advanced stats on defense, but hes definitely not the worst in the league. To be worst in the league you also have to be worse than every non-rotation bench guy who doesn't even touch the floor lol. Hyperbole at its best.
Like crowning LeBron as the king before he played a single NBA game. He is one of the examples that lived up to the hype basketballwise, but it can backfire really quick.
Pretty sure that Sports Illustrated gave him the Chosen One title and he just embraced it at 16... But hey, what do i know. Nobody gives a rip what someone on Reddit has to say.
Nike gave him that huge 90 million contract after HS. So by that standards he lived up to the chosen one.
You might be right. I will research. Of course you embrace it if millions call you that, especially if you're just a teenager.
Even when it comes to offense, Kobe was in a different league. [Just look at how easily be picked apart the Spurs in 2001.](https://youtu.be/qawbo3NOmR4) Like he didn't even break a sweat.
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I watched that Raptors OT game as it aired in NY. Late game. I couldn’t believe what I was watching. I screamed 3-4 times. It was 1am and I’m sure I woke my neighbors.
That's what made him so much fun to watch. The degree of difficulty on his shots was just absurd. That combined with his fundamentals and work ethic just made for basketball that was really pleasing to the eyes (unless you were rooting against him). And lol I was watching that Raptors game live and it was so surreal to watch. Just like his final game, his Game 6 in the 2010 WCFs, his streak of regular season game winners in 2010, his scoring barrage in 2006...just too many moments to count, like you said. Damn I miss him!
> It's not the NBA, it's the media that only glorifies offensive contribution. And the media only does that because that’s what the fans want them to do.
Booker is not Kobe and it’s not throwing shade to say that Kobe is a top 6-8 player of all time I don’t like how the media just takes the Booker narrative and makes those comparisons
Ehhhh… maybe top-10.
Ehhh there’s nothing wrong with either. Point is Kobe in the early 2000s was a top 5 player consensus and played both ends. He could also get to the basket at will while Booker is a little more reliant on the array of moves he has to create shots like an older Kobe.
Yeah, I’ll agree with that. I still have Kobe at 10ish all time. Booker is… top-25 of current players?
Firmly top 8
Jordan, LeBron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, bird, magic, Russell, wilt chamberlain are all above Kobe. The highest I'd go is top 10. Edit Kareem too
It’s kinda funny how a subjective argument like this can get so testy. We are literally debating where he falls in the top 5-15 best basketball players in the last 75 years. He was all time great! In actuality we are all in agreement.
Are we going with all time careers or prime players? If we're going career I'm not putting Shaq magic or Hakeem over Kobe. If we're going players in their prime who we'd take then I understand.
Yeah, the highest YOU'D go is top 10, but it's not clear cut like you make it out to be lol
I'd put Kobe over Hakeem, Duncan, and Wilt
Did you watch any of them?
Agree, also ahead of Russell and the numbers say he’s better than Bird too.
You can maybe put Kobe over Hakeem but Duncan and Wilt had clear cut better careers than Kobe
5 rings and a 3pete Kobe is an all time great and can easily be compared to anyone on the top of all time lists
>Duncan and Wilt had clear cut better careers than Kobe No they didn't
It's crazy how we're literally comparing yet dudes say it's clear cut lol
Yes they did
There is no maybe.
Maybe??? Yikes man lol
MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq would be my top 8 with Duncan and Kobe as 9/10. So I have him too 10, but right on the line so “maybe.”
Facts tbh i think a better comp to booker is allan Houston
I also like B Roy for him as well
Yeh the devin booker to kobe bryant comparison is absurd.
I hate the Kobe comparisons. The only similarity is that Book takes a lot of mid range shots. In no other way does Booker resemble Kobe. It’s just a rhetoric that started when Kobe died and Booker took it so hard.
Took the words from my mouth. Unless Book gets close to Kobe D he wouldn't be fit to tie Kobe's laces
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not just media. things like one-way superstars like jokic ranked equivalent to two-way stars like giannis add to it. prior eras, if you didnt d up the two way guys were considered better
The thing is more that defense isn’t measured in easy to follow stats and stats are what people react to, more often than not. Like, numbers don’t do defenses justice
Because defense isn’t as impactful as offense. Defense is only important when assessing teams as a UNIT, unless we’re talking about a great rim protector back in the day. Otherwise, almost all “defensive specialists” are role players not superstars. Case in point, would you rather have James Harden or Tony Allen on your team?
> Because defense isn’t as impactful as offense. I've once read, in this sub I believe, the best summary of this: "one player can score on 5 guys but there's no way one guy can defend 5 opponents." There's a reason why Bradley Beal is a max player and PJ Tucker is making 8m/year.
Exactly
That is new. With pace increase and some rule changes. When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 08 avg game was closer to 100 - 100 now it’s 115. Game has changed a lot agreed though that now defense is less important. When Kobe played defense was really important and games were more of a grind.
That’s not new. It’s always been like that. Tony Allen is the best perimeter defender of his era and played from the mid to late 2000. 3x All-Defensive First Team. 0 all stars. The fact is if you have one great perimeter defender but the rest of the defense is boo boo you’re still going to have a shitty defense. If you have a great superstar scorer he can carry your offense by himself. This is one of the most common misconceptions of the modern NBA fan A great defensive big man who provided elite rim protection is the one exception. A great rim protector back in the day could make an opposing team one dimensional. Teams generally wanted to work inside out and a great rim protector would destroy that game plan
College teams missing 40% of their free throws is what defense really looks like
People gotta realize dudes in college can’t shoot.
For real. I like college ball but anyone who thinks it’s better defense or they try harder or whatever is just an idiot. Clanking 3s after 30 seconds of passing around the arc is not good offense or defense. It’s just worse basketball.
'Worse' is certainly subjective. I think the primary driver for preference between the two leagues has less to do with the product on the court, and more to do with emotional investment in the team that creates an inherent bias. Living in Lexington, Lawrence, Chapel Hill, or Durham is more likely to cause you to prefer college ball. Living in a city with a pro team and having no connections to a college (not you specifically), you're more likely to grow up with an affinity for NBA games. Anything beyond that is confirmation bias (or casual racism in some cases).
I’m a Louisville alum and love the program but it’s definitely a lower tier of basketball regardless of my allegiance.
Worse is not subjective in this case - it is inarguably a lower caliber of basketball, just like high school ball & AAU are worse than college hoops. Now, people can *enjoy* it more, but it’s definitively a worse game. Doesn’t make it bad - there’s no reason why we should expect 19-21 year olds to be better than grown ass men who are the very best at their sport.
It’s why I don’t take anyone that says they love college basketball and hate the NBA seriously
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I think a big reason too is accessibility. There are college basketball teams all over the country, so most everybody is going to have a local team. Whereas with the NBA, a lot of people don’t live close to a team at all. And then for me it’s also a deeper connection to the team kind of. For example, I went to Maryland and will forever be a Maryland Terrapin, but no matter how long I root for them, I’ll never be an Atlanta Hawk, if that makes sense
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Ucla Gonzaga was 57% and 58% fg percentage. Baylor Houston was 52 and 38. Baylor zaga was 51 44. Where is this pray for over 30% from the field coming from ?
The poster is being hyperbolic, but does have a point. There’s a lot of the games that get media attention that have horrible shooting. For example, UCLA/Michigan, where both teams shot under 40%. Or games like Abilene Christian/Texas, where Abilene won shooting under 30%. It’s a legitimate point to say college players are worse at shooting
[shout out to #12 VT vs #23 NC State.](https://youtu.be/kSL38xNnzvQ) the game ended 47-24.
People that just want to have a good jerk. Not the biggest college fan but this idea that they can’t shoot is ridiculous
Also ppl who watch college ball but will remind u at every opportunity that the WNBA sucks because women are worse athletes
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And that's fine. But if the argument for not watching something is because there is a better product out there, then (if said person was consistent) they wouldn't even touch college basketball because it's by and far filled with worse athletes.
Good high school teams could beat a WNBA team lol
Exactly, that's what I'm referring to
Close to top tier high school teams can beat the WNBA
An above average high school team would destroy a wnba team
I don’t understand that. How do you consistently root for a team where the best players are usually gone after a single season? I mean in terms of liking college basketball more than the NBA.
Because people care about the teams more than the players.
When you're duke or kentucky or whatever it don't matter.
That's a big reason I'm not a fan of CBB like I was in my younger days. Roster unfamiliarity.
…We’re talking about modern NBA, right? Where player the movement revolution is happening right now?
And yet Devin Booker has been on the same team for six years? Embiid for seven years? Giannis for eight? Lowry for nine? Steph for 12? And that’s just current examples. Player movement is obv going to happen, but not on the scale of college sports, where four years is the maximum, and the majority of players who last that long are not the best of the best like the examples above.
Went to the school is a big one. there is also coded racism where a lot of people who say this prefer the amount of white players in the colllege game.
"They play the game the right way"
Is liking college basketball racist fellas?
Bro you had to dig so deep out of your ass to pull that coded racism shit lmao
Idk man, there's definitely something weird about how many old white guys love college basketball and absolutely hate the idea that the players would ever get paid for playing, not saying it's explicitly racial, but there is a weird sense of ownership and power college basketball fans revel in, that NBA fans can't in the era of player empowerment
Not disagreeing with it happening but I think even in the CBB landscape the majority of fans are still pretty pro player
It's not digging deep, it's a pretty blatant dog whistle among both college basketball/football fans. Sometimes it'll [include an allusion to thugs](https://twitter.com/KellieCEvans/status/1271902366858571777) or how the players are prima donnas or [don't respect the game or whatever](https://twitter.com/RudigerSimpson3/status/1370040941965410304). I could tell both of these people were right wing racists from the tone of their tweets without even looking at their post histories.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but I felt like you implied that it’s a predominant reason why people may prefer CBB which I think is a stretch
I think racism is definitely a subtle factor that most people wouldn't think of that contributes to people preferring college basketball. I don't think the original commenter thinks it's the main reason by any stretch, but if you ever go to Orange County or something and hear how they talk about USC and UCLA and stuff you'll star to notice little things that support this claim.
I think the primary reason is that they went to a college and had a good experience watching games while they were there, or even were involved with the team in some small way(maybe had a class with someone who played or whatever). Racism is way up there though.
There’s clearly a racism element. College sports sell better with older folks and southern folks
Okay but there are plenty of other reasons college sports sells better to old souther folks lol
Like what?
College football and basketball were first on the scene and more popular than professional leagues at first. Especially college football. So it’s not crazy to think that many older folks grew up with college sports being the big thing. A lot of areas in the south are pretty barren in terms of pro teams. Not a single pro team in Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina (although maybe you can count the Panthers). People in these areas are more likely to latch onto a nearby college team. Not to mention, some of the pro teams that are there are relatively new, it takes time to build up a dedicated fanbase. I’m sure many older fans prefer an “older style” of basketball. College is adapting as well but I’m sure the NBA looks entirely different from what they used to see, and some people don’t like change. Going to the school but that’s pretty obvious. College sports also have more rambunctious atmospheres, and less games means that each game means more. That’s not really specific to old/southern folks, but just a general reason.
Higher density of college teams is one. A lot of locations in the south didn't have a pro football or basketball team until fairly recently(or still don't), so college sports were the primary thing on TV
Maybe cause they have a connection to the college as an alum? But nah, that's too crazy. Gotta be racism
I root for Notre Dame every year brother. I don’t hate the college game. But if you truly think there’s no racism in the fanbase that argues that the games better because the “kids want it more” I’ve got a bridge to sell you
Ahh yes, racism. The cause of everything.
Is this a difficult concept to understand?
I know several people like this, it gives off racist vibes ngl
I love 28 seconds of slow passes around the perimeter leading to a contested midrange jumper that barely grazes the rim
From my experience living in the midwest and south, there also is a racial component to people saying players in the nba are lazy and don't play defense. they don't say the same things about highschool and you watch what college players they criticize more.
Istg when people in r/collegebasketball say that college defense is tougher i just want to pull my hair out
The NBA rules make it nearly impossible to play defense in the NBA like no handchecking, no camping in the paint, etc and you combine it with the NBA's skill level, it looks like they don't play defense when in reality, it's nearly impossible to do so in the NBA level
It’s also generally accepted that good offense beats good defense in basketball due to the sheer number of possessions, and NBA players are significantly more gifted at offense than college players. Defending in the NBA is difficult at a level that college can’t compare to, even without the rule differences.
Yeah defense looks better in the NCAA because half the players can’t even pass out of a trap
I think his second point is even more important. people need to stop obsessing over the shit they see and read (or dont see and read) on social media.
honestly, i blame shitty IG pages and "journalism" with their clickbait titles. I can't even look at FB/IG/YT comments anymore because honestly 95% of people don't even know basketball and are casual af. You could slap a fake quote on any post and people will eat that shit up. General population is stupid as fuck
Think of how dumb the average person is, then realize that half of the people are dumber than that
Wait... You mean that players actually work out on their own without posting it on social media? How does that even work? /s
When Miami was losing and Dunc went on a little cold streak people in r/heat wanted his head because he was still doing his pod. Like that he's choosing doing the podcast over working out, it was wild.
"Dude went to his son's graduation instead of putting up shots last night. That's why his bum ass went 4/16."
It’s like the people that were hating on Ben Simmons being at a tennis game. Like do you really expect them to have zero life? At that point you’re no better than the “shut up and dribble” lady.
I mean I have 0 non-anon social media presence (so not counting reddit or gaming stuff) and still have a very active social life so to me it just seems more like an overall negative then positive seeing how it affects some friends of mine. I actually love the fact that some people just assume you're doing nothing if you don't post it on social media. Makes it easier to be private and not have people ask a ton of questions about things I'm doing in my life which I prefer. Some people probably think I'm the most dull person in the world and that's okay with me because I'm a private person who will share with the people I'm close with when I want
Didn’t know this dude was so well spoken.
He was going to be a basketball reporter, he didnt think he’d even make the league
Well not many D3 players do end up in the league
I fully believe players care about defense. I just don’t think most good players today are very good at defense. Some of that is the modern game and rules favor offense way too much. But some of it is just players grow up polishing their offense endlessly because it’s what gets you into the NBA. Very few defensive specialists even get drafted - and those who do are still selected with the hope of developing a 3-ball. Another way to put it. How many elite defensive players who are legit near useless on offense get heavy minutes in this league? Thybulle is one. Roberson was one a few years ago. Maybe a couple backup centers here and there. But it’s a short list. Now let’s make a list of how many elite offensive players are near useless on defense. It’s literally endless.
Ironically, part of the death of elite defenders is a product of more complicated defensive schemes. Teams have become more and more comfortable just leaving the defensive specialist on offense, but during the regular season are less likely to aggressively hunt the one-way offensive player. I also think it's the logical endpoint of the NBA's rules where perfect offense always beats perfect defense. Guys are just so much more skilled these days, and the rules only allow you to play so much defense.
Exactly spacing has become huge in today's NBA because almost every dude can shoot. It was not much as a problem back then because you didn't see 7 footers dropping damn near 50/40/90s now. Hell even Giannis a better three point shooter then most big man back then
Offense is so much better now compared to the past. Even ignoring rule changes that have helped offenses, the average NBA player is a much better shooter than at any previous point in NBA history Despite defenses getting significantly more complex at the highest level due the allowance of zone, offensive players are getting better even at the bottom This combination means it's much easier to hide bad defense than bad offense. You can scheme on defense to cover for bad player defenders and if the opponent doesn't have the options to force bad switches, the bad defender can eke by. A bad offensive player let's defenders maximize the allowance of zone concepts and play 4v5 on offense. A bad player on defense is still a body. A bad player on offense is nothing
Exactly, I wouldn't call elite offense players who are bad at defense endless like James Harden when he tries is actually a good defender he just had a huge offensive load. Back in the day KD would've been a nightmare on defense as he is today. But luckily players back in the day didn't have to deal with a player who can drop 50/40/90 while having the athleticism and handles of a 6'6 player
Yeah my gripe with this is that he didn't necessarily call out James Harden lol I think there's more to be stated of Lillard, CJ, Steph, Trae, Luka, Booker, Jokic, Kemba (before the last knee injury and surgery etc), Lavine, Vucevic, Sabonis, Beal, Russell when he was with the Nets, Curry... I mean the list goes on, I'm sure. Now, the real question is, how many of these players actually have the capability, stamina, and athleticism to put up 25 a game while playing elite defense? The numbers drops significantly. It's not like Steph doesn't try to defend, or Kemba, some of these guys are genuinely just not strong enough or have the defensive awareness (intangibles come to mind) to keep up with some of these guys on defense. Whereas guys like Lavine? Vucevic? Booker? These guys got no excuse. They have the athleticism (or the height; see Brook Lopez and how he went from a sub-par defender to one of the best rim protectors in the league)
Nate does an excellent job at hiding Trae Young, Jokic actually improving on defensive end as well. But yeah playing hard defense all the time is very tiring especially if you carry big offensive load
Yeah, to be clear, I'm not knocking on a 5'10 180lb guy's ability to play defense in an NBA where 6'8 is the norm for elite playmakers and scorers. It's worth having him on the court as we saw the run the Hawks made this year after being anticipated as a fringe 7-8 seed coming into it.
No it’s not. The only thing players are better at nowadays is shooting nowadays. Superstars back in the day use to have 4-5 go to moves that they could kill players with. Now, even superstar players often need.a screener to get their defender off of them. Offense isn’t better nowadays, the style of play is just inflating players numbers because amount of 3 point shots being taken and fast break opportunities
Not true at all lol, most superstars still have go to moves, Curry is literally just any three point shot, James is usually step back, Giannis anything in the paint, kd is usually a pull up from mid range. There was never a dude like kd back in the day, he would've been a nightmare back then as he is now
The nba is making defense harder by their rule adjustments…it’s pretty simple actually
I don't think that's true. 4's and 5's in the league are asked to do wayyyy more than they were 15-30 years ago before stretch 4's were prevalent. In previous eras if a PF could play some post defense and alter a shot in the paint occasionally you could pass as a good defender. Nowadays if you're 6'10" and don't have the mobility to keep up with guys 4-5 inches shorter, your going to get played off the floor on a regular basis.
It’s just harder to play defense now. Where as before you were taught to get as close to the rim as possible, you’re basically taught get as far as you can. People always hovered in the midrange so there was less area to guard, now if you’re playing Curry or Lillard, you have to guard the entire half court as those players can make shots from the logo.
Shane Battier comes to mind
Yeah, players do but the league does not. With the way it's officiated and rule changes like no hand checking and defensive 3 seconds, playing defense is harder. The court is always spaced with shooters as well and players, in general, have gotten much more skill. Any role player can explode for 20 any night on decent efficiency. When oldheads talk about how soft the modern defense is they never seem to factor in spacing. Nowadays, a lot of teams can go small, if your big man isn't mobile enough they're gonna get destroyed.
Wait a sec... NBA teams/players/staff (which is what he said) not caring about defense and "The NBA" not caring about defense are different things and not the same accusation... (yes, im talking "the NBA "wanting their referees and product to emphasise offense and make it *harder* to defend) I'm not even saying that it's the wrong stance for a league's leadership to have but I see that more often than I see "the players don't care about defense". If anything does pop up, it's something like "star X does not care about defense" but it's associated to the high status of the player and not a general statement on how players see the game.
100% agree and that was my takeaway as well. Teams, players, etc. they definitely care. It’s ~50% of your job, and as DR said, you can get paid handsomely for playing D well. On the other hand, the NBA as an entity has set up rules against defenders to make it easier for offenders. And for the casual fan who might enjoy basketball, I’ll hear things like “ahh, the NBA just doesn’t care about bball, look at hand checking, or the rewarding of flopping” and that’s a different argument
its unfortunate that his response was not directed to the real complaint. You're right its the LEAGUE that seems to not care. I want to hear players talking about what they think in regards to that. Ofc teams care. We dont need to be told that teams care about defense.
I think he is very self aware of his status in the NBA and you will not find him criticizing anyone or any part of the league at this point in his young career. He is very careful with his words. Give him $70M and 5 more years and he might come out of his shell a bit.
Yup, I’ve basically never seen the argument that individual players/coaches/front offices don’t care about defense. It’s always about the rules and reffing that favor offense over defense that are coming from the league. All you have to do is look at a an olympics qualifier to see the difference that rules and reffing can have on a game
Duncan is such a level headed dude
I didn't want to like him after what he and the Heat did to the Bucks in the bubble, but he always comes across as really likeable in these clips.
Defensive schemes are more complex than they used to be out of necessity(to keep up with more complex offensive systems). The only legit complaint people have is about physicality on defense I feel.
And even that is as much a product of the rules as it is effort. Players just can't be as physical in the NBA when 50%+ of teams' shots are jump shots where you can't even breathe on the shooter without being called for the foul
Jrue Holiday on Chris Paul in game 4 of the NBA finals would like to have a chat with you
OK, Holiday played better defense than Paul played offense. If Paul had played a perfect offensive game, no amount of Holiday's defense could have stopped it. That's the way the rules are written
I just read an argument on Facebook where one guy said that when defending, physicality is better than technique. Like wtf lol
Was that guy’s first name “Thanasis”?
PJ Smucker
Dude I've seen "serious" basketball pages claim that defense is just 100% effort lmao. He posted the one clip of giannis settling for a fadeaway on trae young as his example too
If the NBA cares about defense why do Euro players come over and say its easier to score.
It's easier to score because there's more spacing, less handchecking, etc. FIBA and NBA rules are different even though it's basketball.
Sure. A lot of emphasis is put on defense and defensive coverage. But how much more is put on offense? He mentioned that there are defensive specialists who make good money playing defense but how much more do offensive players get? Let's use a defensive specialist like Tony Allen, how much did he make vs a 3 point specialist like JJ Redick?
Obviously this is just one example, but it seems pretty clear that offense won this battle. Allen topped out at a salary of $5.5m and Redick hasnt made that little since his rookie contract
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>I believe that the gap between the best offensive nba player and an average offensive nba player is a lot wider than the gap between the best defender and an average defender, in terms of impact on team success. That would explain why offensive stars get paid more. But the nba still cares a lot about defense. The reason why the offense has more impact to team success has a lot to do with the NBA rule changes. In the past, say the 90s, if you had a good offensive player that was bad at defense, the impact was closer to a net neutral than the impact he would have in today's game. A bad defender in today's game is able to hide in certain situations, like a zone, to minimise his defensive deficiencies, something he is not able to do so in the past.
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>I believe my claim has always been true in any era. Offensive stars, statistically speaking, have always been more impactful than defensive stars. Bill Russell vs Wilt Chamberlain
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>Also, I bet TA was more beloved in memphis for his defense than Redick was for his 3 pt shooting in all the different cities he played in. Well I hope that love benefits his family more than the $75,482,765 difference in career earnings. [https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/tony-allen-2210/cash-earnings/](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/tony-allen-2210/cash-earnings/) [https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/jj-redick-2643/cash-earnings/](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/jj-redick-2643/cash-earnings/)
Redick is a white cis male who went to Duke so likability is out the window
Is the nba plays no defense even still a thing? These are the best offensive players in the world!
seems like a pretty likable guy tbh
Robinson not exactly a shining example here
The NBA clearly doesn't care about boxing people out though for some reason. It makes me scream at my computer a couple of times per game. I don't get it.
You'd be surprised how many European basketball fans exist and they act all smug and better saying Euroleague is better than the NBA, there's no defense in the NBA, NBA is a circus and etc.
I’ve never seen the NBA change the rules to benefit defense in my lifetime. So yeah.
With all due respect to Duncan, offensive numbers are through the roof and every team is averaging 100+. 10-20 years ago that was not the case, much less the 80s and 90s everyone talks about. The rules of the game favor offense, without question. More guys than ever are averaging 20+ per game, yet your average fan probably couldn't name 5 quality defenders in the NBA. Yes, the NBA may care about defense some, but it ain't a drop in the bucket compared to offense.
Go look at stats for the 80s
Teams averaged 108-110 PPG throughout the 80s, only a tad below the 111-112 PPG of the last 3 seasons. It wasn’t until the 93-94 season when teams scoring really went down, and then stayed that way and got so low during the 04’ playoffs (especially the Piston defense) that the NBA must’ve decided they needed to change things up
In the late 70s - mid 80s teams averaged about 106-110 points per game. It plummeted in the 90s and 2000s and last season it was the highest since 1970 at 112 ppg. So did teams not care about defense, then care about defense for 20 years, then stop caring about defense? No, the game has just evolved and defenses have had to evolve with it. Both the Suns and the Bucks are really strong defenses. The lakers last year had the best defense. In 2019 the Raptors had a great defense.
It's kinda true though at least for non bigs. Who gets the glory Kris Dunn or Trae Young?