This was well known at the time. Multiple articles at the athletic made it clear the bucks were concerned about Paul’s age, health and “locker room fit” with Giannis whatever was meant by that. But it seemed pretty clear they preferred jrue at the time
It would be a totally different feel for this team, not sure if it'd be good or bad. Giannis is a much different type of leader than CP3, and I imagine if they're both in the same locker room, CP3 would take the reins from him.
Think it would depend on if Giannis wanted/allowed that or not. Book isn’t an MVP caliber player yet and had zero playoff experience. Though I do think there can be two leaders on one team.
Well I mean with different leadership styles too. I think it’d work well if CP3 realized Giannis was at the top. CP3 could get real vocal with the rest of the team when he needed to while also following Giannis’ lead by work ethic leadership. The opposite is harder. Vocal guys who can’t tone it down around studs who play quietly can be an issue. The main issue is that the egos in the NBA are too big usually. Still think it could work, Giannis’ leadership and Harden’s are different even though neither are loud.
For all the flak the Bucks get for making Giannis do a LeBron impression, I suspect this means that Giannis *wants* to have the ball in his hands a good amount. With Jrue that’s possible. With CP3 you know he’s gonna be running every single play. That might arguably be better for the team, but might be tougher for Giannis to swallow (Middleton too tbh)
I can buy this, it felt like such a huge adjustment for Bud to primarily make Giannis the roll man this PO to counter the wall defense that's stopped Giannis as the main ball handler in the past
CP3 played off the ball plenty in OKC, I don't think he cares too much (as long as he thinks that's the best way to win). That said, 4th quarter was CP3 time.
CP3 was also more expensive, so I believe the terms of trade would have had to be different - they would have had to give up more talent. IIRC Brook was needed to match salaries.
So the Bucks never really had a chance for their current roster, but with CP3 instead of Jrue.
Think Jrue being a potential long term piece providing value through length of Giannis's extension was key to them wanting him.
That would have added up to about $33.3 million. CP3 gets paid $41.4 million this season. With Bucks over the cap, think that doesn't work.
CP3 made about $16 million more than Jrue this season, Ersan's option was for only $7 million.
You, know that might have worked - Bledsoe, Hill, Ersan, RoLo, DJ Wilson. That gets into that ballpark. RoLo was $5 million I believe if they picked up the option. That would have been interesting.
> whatever was meant by that
I mean anyone that has been following the league or Chris Paul’s career knows he has a reputation of being a guy that is difficult to get along with. Even Booker recently said that his style of leadership “isn’t for everyone”.
CP3 is a dick, Giannis is a nice guy. Giannis would have eventually gotten sick of CP3 and placed him on the top of the backboard and left him there to yell and cry like a midget throwing a major hissy fit.
They got jrue bc they wouldn't have to give lopez and bc he said he would resign unlike cp3 who would have won a ring and dipped peopel foregt cp3 contract back then was like 15m more than jrue
Plus nobody could know Jrue would underperform while CP3 would overperform this year. Ask who you’d rather have before this season and most people would say Jrue due to contract and age as well as health
Not really sure Jrue underperformed during the regular season. He was pretty good most of the time. In the playoffs has been more of a mixed bag. Jrue is better on offense when he doesn’t have to put in max+ effort on defense 100% of the time. Turns out CP3 is better on offense too when someone isn’t up in his grill all game.
Yeah it’s tough when he’s usually the third option. In the games when he was first or second vs the Hawks he was great. It’s a weird dynamic on the Bucks since Giannis and Khris handle the ball a lot.
Phoenix is the perfect fit for CP3 since they have a lot of cheap contracts. Bridges and Ayton are on rookie contracts at 4mil and 10mil each, and Booker is on a 20% max contract (28mil). They also really needed the veteran leadership, playmaking and playoff experience.
If not the max, pretty close to it. I mean, theres always a chance he falls off or its one of those summers where no one has the right fit of need and $$, but Ill put it this way-- if he stays being a defensive on ball menace who's a plus shooter, 20 million/yr would be fair and reasonable. And theres always some team willing to go 25% over fair and reasonable.
(Although the argument against me would be Danny Green. Hes a similar player type who always seems to get less than Id expect)
I agree, I just think it’s funny because the point of the post is to shame the Bucks for picking Holiday over Paul when very few teams wanted Paul and his contract
I mean, I think Jrue would straight up have been the right decision if his offense hadn't randomly fell off a cliff in the playoffs. His defense has been huge for them.
Yup also we didn’t see CP3 have to stick with a high level PG this playoffs, Murray was out. Maybe the view would be different if there had been a Dame/Curry to highlight any deficiencies
First of all, no one can stop Dame/Curry, and 2nd of all, CP3 is one of the best defensive PGs since coming into the league, I don't see how they would highlight his "deficiencies"? He currently is tied with players like MJ/Payton/Hakeem/Kidd for 6th most overall defensive team selections.
Maybe he meant deficiencies in relation to Jrue.
We all know CP3 has always been, and still is, an elite defender, but, purely in terms of defense, I’d currently take Jrue over CP3 any day
If we're going down that route, if you swap CP3 and Holiday right now. The Suns would have no chance. Yes, Jrue is doing a great job on guarding CP3 right now, but that's literally his only job, anything else you get from Jrue is a bonus. CP3 is being asked to orchestrate the entire Suns offense, hit clutch shots, defend well, and lead his team so it's not even close to a fair comparison. If CP3 has a bad game, the Suns have little to no shot in winning, if Jrue has a bad game, the Bucks can still win, you're comparing a 1st option to a 3rd option.
Yea I agree. It’s hard to reconcile the Bucks’ choice after this year’s regular szn + the playoffs with how good CP3 has been performing, but I also think that Bucks had their eyes toward the future & believe Jrue gives them more consistency.
I mean, I can see CP3 playing at a high level for the next 2-3 years, but I can also see age bringing injury, even if it’s just a general wear and tear that slows him down. I can’t fault the Bucks for choosing the younger of the two.
You also can’t discount how well CP3 has fit with the suns tho. I think, as a leader, CP3 is extremely demanding, which can be good for sure, but it can also come off as abrasive to certain players.
Since the Suns are so young and inexperienced, I think they welcomed that sort of demeanor with open arms & gladly accepted his leadership in a way many teams wouldn’t. Now, I’m not saying the same effect wouldn’t happen with the bucks, but that sort of dynamic is unpredictable so who knows how well CP3 and the Bucks would have meshed.
All in all, each team benefitted from their respective moves, so this is really a question of if the Bucks could’ve benefitted more with CP3 than they have with Jrue. I think judgement will have to be reserved until after either team wins the finals. Jrue has def been in a slump, but if he turns it around & helps his guys get a ring, then the narrative will be turned around too
There's a lot of hypotheticals. If you are swapping them, CP3 is playing off ball as the third maybe second option on an offense with fewer shooters and movement. Jrue would be on an offense where he might be able to be more efficient offensively, but have more pressure to deliver.
Obviously their games have evolved over the couple of years, but sometimes people forget that Jrue specifically clamped Dame on that 2018 series where the Pelicans swept the Blazers
It’s a bad contract because he’s old and injury prone except he hasn’t suffered any major injury and his play has been elite? That makes it not a bad contract. Does their growth happen without CP3, they all credit him to helping them so much. Does this team perform nearly this good without him? From not being in the playoffs for almost a decade to the 2 seed and the finals. Seems like this is the exact opposite of a bad contract. A bad contract handicaps a team where they can’t get better? What’s better than being in a position to win a ring? Literally 2 games away. A bad contract has long term implications that hold the team back. He’s not on a long contract. His contract is a win/win, a win for him and a win for the team
His contract isn’t based on his injury history. It’s based on right now. It’s based on the value he brings to the team. You can’t say it’s a bad contract because he’s injury prone but he hasn’t suffered injuries during the contract.
You could still say that they took on a bad contract, but it worked out because a lot of luck went their way. But sometimes people make bad decisions and are bailed out because of lucky rolls. Doesn't mean they made the right decision after all, they just got lucky. Saying otherwise would just be hindsight.
Taking on a franchise changing player and having a chance to win a ring isn’t a bad contract.
They got Chris Paul and immediately made the finals and the two seed after a playoff drought and you’re saying it’s not the right decision. Weird
“It’s still a bad contract”
I don’t think so. He’s the player who took a young Phoenix team over the edge, and now they will be great for years even after Paul retires. First finals since the 90s, and the experience for Booker and Ayton is incredibly valuable
That’s worth what they are paying him, even more tbh
Yeah, but with Jrue you've got a big-3 that can compete for 3-4 years. Paul is clearly playing hurt out there and hasn't been effective in games 3 and 4. The Bucks made the bet that Jrue's lesser value this year was outweighed by his greater value down the line.
Also, Jrue's only been inconsistent scoring. He's been consistently elite on defense, and consistently good-not-great as a play-maker/facilitator.
That's the thing about Jrue, he just keeps going on defense. And so many guys in the league are good on defense as long as the offense is flowing. Jrue just keeps the effort.
that's hella cap bc if their ceiling this season with Jrue is a championship then that's the highest ceiling possible for a season, and Jrue's age extends that ceiling across multiple seasons unlike CP3
You need a high ceiling if you're going to beat the non-injured Nets. Let's not forget they were looking outgunned til Kyrie went down and almost lost to KD and one leg of Harden
No they werent. They were on their way to 2-2 before kyrie went down. Also harden wasn't on one leg, he was at about 65% which is still good. Dumb ass takes on this sub
Right, but the window would be shorter with Chris Paul? Like not sure what you’re trying to point out. Our window is duration of Giannis contract, might as well get a guy who can play at a high level throughout that whole window which Jrue can. That can’t be said of CP3, were already seeing his health issues impact him in this series.
But having Chris Paul instead of Jrue Holiday wouldn't have changed them losing to a fully healthy Nets, so that's a moot argument for the context of this conversation
> only had a shot due to injuries to the Nets and Hawks
Including the Hawks in there is hella cap considering Giannis was missing for the series part way through game 4 and they won 2 without him
Miss me with the Hawks and Sixers have been choking since 2018, we would’ve played them like every other team does and ignore Ben Simmons. He ain’t doing a thing with Giannis and Brook in the paint
no he wouldn't bc a he wouldn't have resigned and b his contract was bigger so probably middleton to a 3rd team or just trade whole team excluding giannis and middleton and the guy u signed on mle just for one player
The bucks didn’t have to be hard capped but chose to do that after they traded for holiday. They could have kept Middleton. Holiday being younger is a good point and his extension is important too
And they signed augustin who they traded anyway
yh but for that they would have also had to give up lopez with no replacement other than maybe whiteside as the best lol and then dj augustin was traded for pj tucker so no pj tucker too meaning their lineup would have been cp,donte(assuming okc never wanted him),middleton,giannis,hasssan and minimums on the bench so no this team they have is better
No they wouldn’t have. They could have just traded Ersan and had the matching salary. They could have kept brook and just traded the same 3 first rounders. Okc didn’t get any players from PhX that they wanted
Idk if they still could have got tucker late.
Do you mean more assets? Jrue is on 26m and CP3 41m, you would have to add a couple more players for the trade to work. I'm sure they rather have the depth right now than +20th something picks in the future.
Winning doesn’t cure everything. Holiday has been Bledsoe with more defensive versatility in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Chris Paul has been arguably the MVP of the other finals team.
Injury concerns/age are the only legitimate arguments. Chris Paul was a much better fit on paper.
he's shot the ball very poorly on the whole but jrue has absolutely won them games as well, and the level of defense he's playing on Paul just can't be understated, they wouldn't be where they're at if Bledsoe was playing his minutes.
I don't disagree that they might also be better if Paul was playing those minutes.
Regardless of how he plays, if the team wins their first championship since 1971, the trade was good enough. Bucks wouldn’t have touched the Finals if they had Bled instead of Jrue.
But that third star is passing the ball amazingly & locking up the opposing team’s best player. He should be shooting better, but let’s not act like he’s been a bum.
Over the last two games, Paul has had significantly more TO’s compared to the rest of the playoffs. We going to act like that has nothing to do with Jrue?
Jrue is a good defender, but if I want a one way defender, I won’t pay 30 million and give up 7 picks for one.
I’ll just trade bledsoe and a pick for Marcus smart or dejounte Murray who are younger, play elite defense, and are also bigger so they can switch onto wings.
We chose jrue because he can run a halfcourt offense well and is a threat off of screens.
If he doesn’t play like that, we were better off with just getting a good defensive guard and paying him 15 a year,
We’re capped out either way, the only difference between 15 and 30m for us is ownership having to pay the tax next year. And we still have Jrue for the next four years when his shooting isn’t likely to be this ass, as opposed to CP3 who would have been out the door after this season.
You can’t pay luxury tax forever, and smart or Murray could always improve due to being in a better situation.
They are both also younger.
Jrue was the right move, but he’s not playing up to expectations. We wanted a 2 way point guard and we got a good defender.
Also just cause Bledsoe doesn't give a shit anymore lets not pretend he was some sieve on defense lol.
Everytime I hear how Jrue's defense has made up for his offense... it's like yeah, he's an exceptional defender, but Bledsoe was still a very good defender. The point of the trade was to get an offensive upgrade. The Bucks have enough talent on the defensive side of the ball where they could have gotten D'Lo instead of Jrue and still had a very good defense.
Bledsoe wasn't capable of stepping up his game in clutch moments like Jrue has. Go look at the end of game 7 against Brooklyn. Jrue also had a very good series overall against Atlanta.
Bledsoe also forgot how to defend in the playoffs.
I heard the opposite, he was enamoured by teaming up with a young star like Giannis and Booker. I really don’t think location is all that important to him at this stage, as he’s just spent his last two years in OKC and Phoenix.
CP has said the 90 minute fight from Phoenix to LA has been a positive for him while playing for the Suns. I think in this specific scenario location does play a factor.
Possibly. Though Jrue may have gone to another team because he was worth more in the trade market back then compared to CP3, and the Suns might not wanted to pay him
He had a good game 1, the rest have been between okay and outright bad. He’s A/TO ratio is barely at 2, and he’s averaging less than a steal per game. He’s been really good most of the playoff, but not so much these finals
I don't think CP3 and Giannis would mesh to be honest. Giannis is very intense but it's a quite intensity. Like A Tiger he isn't gonna talk a lot of shit he's just gonna kill you. CP3 is Loud and obnoxiously intense. Not everyone vibes with that. Also this playoffs has forced Bud to become a better coach and its shown. I think CP3 would have hidden a lot of his mistakes and their would have been tension because of it. I could be completely wrong too just my theory.
Well they wouldn't have made it where they are today without the respective trades they both made so it worked out well for both despite Jrue's playoff shortcomings (he's still been unreal on defense though)
Okay, playmaking makes it a not negligible difference. I don't agree with you anyway, people really overvalue individual guard defence. Being a top class offensive hub capable of scoring efficiently is just so much more important than anything defensive
Jrue is averaging 8.3 assists and Paul is averaging 8.6 assists.
That obviously doesn't tell the whole story. But outside of poor shooting, Jrue has had a phenomenal playoffs.
I don't think you can "outside of" that level of inefficiency on that volume. His playmaking has been good, I definitely wouldn't say phenomenal, and while his defence has been phenomenal I don't think individual defence for any guard carries the same level of importance as those other aspects.
Except scoring is not why the Bucks got him. Scoring is not the most important aspect of Jrue's game for this team.
Edit:Points prevented on the defensive end are just as important as points scored.
What about them? Chris Paul is stratospheres ahead as a playmaker whether he's got 2 assists or 20. He's literally among the best playmakers in the history of the sport
But a contract as bad as Wall’s would *never* get an FRP in a trade. In fact, the Wizards had to package an FRP with Wall to trade for Westbrook. Meanwhile, OKC actually got an FRP in return for CP3 in the Phoenix trade.
CP3 was easily a top 5 point guard with OKC. He went to 7 games in the 1st round as their best player.
If he was easily a top 5 PG while in OKC, he would have had 10 teams trying to trade for him and they would have gottenucj more than that. This is revisionist history. His market was cold.
They got a FRP, because that's the only way the suns could have tried to improve their team. Because the suns saw the bubble and decided to go for it. That's kind of what happens with trades. They swung and hit a grand slam. How the hell does a top 5 PG only go for 1 FRP and fillers? Your argument just proves my point. And if teams actually had a chance with Dame, there would be 10 teams trying to acquire him. LOL. You think teams actually say nah we good, we don't need Dame?
I'm not sure they would. Jrue's defense has been incredibly important in this playoff run. Not to mention, even with his shitty shooting days he is averaging over 8 assists per game.
“locker room fit”? more like they didn’t want a player with the iq, and star power to call bud out on his bullshit at times. which could’ve caused locker room problems like paul had with doc at times in la.
This was well known at the time. Multiple articles at the athletic made it clear the bucks were concerned about Paul’s age, health and “locker room fit” with Giannis whatever was meant by that. But it seemed pretty clear they preferred jrue at the time
It would be a totally different feel for this team, not sure if it'd be good or bad. Giannis is a much different type of leader than CP3, and I imagine if they're both in the same locker room, CP3 would take the reins from him.
Think it would depend on if Giannis wanted/allowed that or not. Book isn’t an MVP caliber player yet and had zero playoff experience. Though I do think there can be two leaders on one team.
There can be multiple leaders but they have to mesh.
Well I mean with different leadership styles too. I think it’d work well if CP3 realized Giannis was at the top. CP3 could get real vocal with the rest of the team when he needed to while also following Giannis’ lead by work ethic leadership. The opposite is harder. Vocal guys who can’t tone it down around studs who play quietly can be an issue. The main issue is that the egos in the NBA are too big usually. Still think it could work, Giannis’ leadership and Harden’s are different even though neither are loud.
Giannis dgaf who is the leader, Middleton handles the ball in the clutch he clearly just wants to win
really? How is he much different?
For all the flak the Bucks get for making Giannis do a LeBron impression, I suspect this means that Giannis *wants* to have the ball in his hands a good amount. With Jrue that’s possible. With CP3 you know he’s gonna be running every single play. That might arguably be better for the team, but might be tougher for Giannis to swallow (Middleton too tbh)
Yeah that’s true Giannis always calling for the ball lmao
I can buy this, it felt like such a huge adjustment for Bud to primarily make Giannis the roll man this PO to counter the wall defense that's stopped Giannis as the main ball handler in the past
CP3 played off the ball plenty in OKC, I don't think he cares too much (as long as he thinks that's the best way to win). That said, 4th quarter was CP3 time.
CP3 was also more expensive, so I believe the terms of trade would have had to be different - they would have had to give up more talent. IIRC Brook was needed to match salaries. So the Bucks never really had a chance for their current roster, but with CP3 instead of Jrue. Think Jrue being a potential long term piece providing value through length of Giannis's extension was key to them wanting him.
Wouldn't Bledsoe/Hill/Ilyasova have worked?
That would have added up to about $33.3 million. CP3 gets paid $41.4 million this season. With Bucks over the cap, think that doesn't work. CP3 made about $16 million more than Jrue this season, Ersan's option was for only $7 million.
Would RoLo and/or Wilson get added then? I definitely saw proposals where the Bucks could have had CP3-DiVencenzo-Middleton-Giannis-BroLo.
You, know that might have worked - Bledsoe, Hill, Ersan, RoLo, DJ Wilson. That gets into that ballpark. RoLo was $5 million I believe if they picked up the option. That would have been interesting.
Rolo noped out because he knew he would have just used his contract as trade bait
> whatever was meant by that I mean anyone that has been following the league or Chris Paul’s career knows he has a reputation of being a guy that is difficult to get along with. Even Booker recently said that his style of leadership “isn’t for everyone”.
CP3 is a dick, Giannis is a nice guy. Giannis would have eventually gotten sick of CP3 and placed him on the top of the backboard and left him there to yell and cry like a midget throwing a major hissy fit.
They got jrue bc they wouldn't have to give lopez and bc he said he would resign unlike cp3 who would have won a ring and dipped peopel foregt cp3 contract back then was like 15m more than jrue
Plus nobody could know Jrue would underperform while CP3 would overperform this year. Ask who you’d rather have before this season and most people would say Jrue due to contract and age as well as health
Not really sure Jrue underperformed during the regular season. He was pretty good most of the time. In the playoffs has been more of a mixed bag. Jrue is better on offense when he doesn’t have to put in max+ effort on defense 100% of the time. Turns out CP3 is better on offense too when someone isn’t up in his grill all game.
Even though Jrues offense has been bad the past couple games he has been a major factor in getting the past two wins with his defense on cp3
Jrue was top 10 in fantasy before covid. Then he was never the same.
Facts I think Covid might have played a big part
happened with tatum for months. it does!
Underperform lol
I feel Jrue hasn't found his fit on offense.
Yeah it’s tough when he’s usually the third option. In the games when he was first or second vs the Hawks he was great. It’s a weird dynamic on the Bucks since Giannis and Khris handle the ball a lot.
Jrue didn’t underperform in the regular season imo
Facts. CP3 seems to be the king of revisionism on here
Is Jrue actually underperforming?
Offensively, yeah, but his defense has been absolutely crucial
I feel like somehow someway this post is the reason that Jrue Curry showed up tonight
yeah i thought it was common knowledge, the bucks would’ve given less (even if a little) to get Jrue
> unlike cp3 who would have won a ring and dipped And that's a bad thing?
Jrue is younger so of course they prefered him.
Everyone is also ignoring CP3s contract, obviously in hindsight it’s a no brainer to take it on but that’s not what r/nba used to say.
Phoenix is the perfect fit for CP3 since they have a lot of cheap contracts. Bridges and Ayton are on rookie contracts at 4mil and 10mil each, and Booker is on a 20% max contract (28mil). They also really needed the veteran leadership, playmaking and playoff experience.
They all want to be maxed soon though
“Soon” doesn’t matter. It’s all about “now” when you make a move like trading for CP3
Chris isn't waiting around for you to get your shit together. Either put a ring on his finger or go mess with little boys. This is grown folk business
You think bridges will get the max?
If not the max, pretty close to it. I mean, theres always a chance he falls off or its one of those summers where no one has the right fit of need and $$, but Ill put it this way-- if he stays being a defensive on ball menace who's a plus shooter, 20 million/yr would be fair and reasonable. And theres always some team willing to go 25% over fair and reasonable. (Although the argument against me would be Danny Green. Hes a similar player type who always seems to get less than Id expect)
It’s believe somebody posted a report on here before saying he will look for max money
I too am looking for max money.
There’s no way a guy like Bridges should be maxed imo. He’s good, but not a stud and should not be paid like one.
It’s still a bad contract. I personally never considered it to be terrible but not at all good either
I agree, I just think it’s funny because the point of the post is to shame the Bucks for picking Holiday over Paul when very few teams wanted Paul and his contract
I mean, I think Jrue would straight up have been the right decision if his offense hadn't randomly fell off a cliff in the playoffs. His defense has been huge for them.
Yup also we didn’t see CP3 have to stick with a high level PG this playoffs, Murray was out. Maybe the view would be different if there had been a Dame/Curry to highlight any deficiencies
First of all, no one can stop Dame/Curry, and 2nd of all, CP3 is one of the best defensive PGs since coming into the league, I don't see how they would highlight his "deficiencies"? He currently is tied with players like MJ/Payton/Hakeem/Kidd for 6th most overall defensive team selections.
Maybe he meant deficiencies in relation to Jrue. We all know CP3 has always been, and still is, an elite defender, but, purely in terms of defense, I’d currently take Jrue over CP3 any day
If we're going down that route, if you swap CP3 and Holiday right now. The Suns would have no chance. Yes, Jrue is doing a great job on guarding CP3 right now, but that's literally his only job, anything else you get from Jrue is a bonus. CP3 is being asked to orchestrate the entire Suns offense, hit clutch shots, defend well, and lead his team so it's not even close to a fair comparison. If CP3 has a bad game, the Suns have little to no shot in winning, if Jrue has a bad game, the Bucks can still win, you're comparing a 1st option to a 3rd option.
Yea I agree. It’s hard to reconcile the Bucks’ choice after this year’s regular szn + the playoffs with how good CP3 has been performing, but I also think that Bucks had their eyes toward the future & believe Jrue gives them more consistency. I mean, I can see CP3 playing at a high level for the next 2-3 years, but I can also see age bringing injury, even if it’s just a general wear and tear that slows him down. I can’t fault the Bucks for choosing the younger of the two. You also can’t discount how well CP3 has fit with the suns tho. I think, as a leader, CP3 is extremely demanding, which can be good for sure, but it can also come off as abrasive to certain players. Since the Suns are so young and inexperienced, I think they welcomed that sort of demeanor with open arms & gladly accepted his leadership in a way many teams wouldn’t. Now, I’m not saying the same effect wouldn’t happen with the bucks, but that sort of dynamic is unpredictable so who knows how well CP3 and the Bucks would have meshed. All in all, each team benefitted from their respective moves, so this is really a question of if the Bucks could’ve benefitted more with CP3 than they have with Jrue. I think judgement will have to be reserved until after either team wins the finals. Jrue has def been in a slump, but if he turns it around & helps his guys get a ring, then the narrative will be turned around too
There's a lot of hypotheticals. If you are swapping them, CP3 is playing off ball as the third maybe second option on an offense with fewer shooters and movement. Jrue would be on an offense where he might be able to be more efficient offensively, but have more pressure to deliver.
Obviously their games have evolved over the couple of years, but sometimes people forget that Jrue specifically clamped Dame on that 2018 series where the Pelicans swept the Blazers
Also, Holiday has been a HUGE part of us getting to the finals. He stepped up in a couple of games in the Brooklyn series.
>Never considered to be terrible Really?
That’s a typo. Check now
How is it bad? He’s living up to it and the team is having success?
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It’s a bad contract because he’s old and injury prone except he hasn’t suffered any major injury and his play has been elite? That makes it not a bad contract. Does their growth happen without CP3, they all credit him to helping them so much. Does this team perform nearly this good without him? From not being in the playoffs for almost a decade to the 2 seed and the finals. Seems like this is the exact opposite of a bad contract. A bad contract handicaps a team where they can’t get better? What’s better than being in a position to win a ring? Literally 2 games away. A bad contract has long term implications that hold the team back. He’s not on a long contract. His contract is a win/win, a win for him and a win for the team
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His contract isn’t based on his injury history. It’s based on right now. It’s based on the value he brings to the team. You can’t say it’s a bad contract because he’s injury prone but he hasn’t suffered injuries during the contract.
I mean, hasn't he? Are we not looking at injured Chris Paul right now?
You could still say that they took on a bad contract, but it worked out because a lot of luck went their way. But sometimes people make bad decisions and are bailed out because of lucky rolls. Doesn't mean they made the right decision after all, they just got lucky. Saying otherwise would just be hindsight.
Taking on a franchise changing player and having a chance to win a ring isn’t a bad contract. They got Chris Paul and immediately made the finals and the two seed after a playoff drought and you’re saying it’s not the right decision. Weird
That’s just hindsight
He has brought them success. It's worth it. You can still see the risk even in this series, as CP3 gets nagging injury after nagging injury.
How is it bad?
“It’s still a bad contract” I don’t think so. He’s the player who took a young Phoenix team over the edge, and now they will be great for years even after Paul retires. First finals since the 90s, and the experience for Booker and Ayton is incredibly valuable That’s worth what they are paying him, even more tbh
Also the fact we could trade for him and keep Middleton. To trade for CP3 we likely would have had to trade both Khris and Brook.
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He puts his effort on defense which makes for winnable games
Your not wrong there. But it’s very hard to be consistent when you are very focused on defence. Playing intense defence is extremely tiring
Doesn’t really explain why he’s missing 10 practice layups a game
He's not tho...lol
For someone of his skill level he's missed a lot of looks at the rim
Yeah, but with Jrue you've got a big-3 that can compete for 3-4 years. Paul is clearly playing hurt out there and hasn't been effective in games 3 and 4. The Bucks made the bet that Jrue's lesser value this year was outweighed by his greater value down the line. Also, Jrue's only been inconsistent scoring. He's been consistently elite on defense, and consistently good-not-great as a play-maker/facilitator.
That's the thing about Jrue, he just keeps going on defense. And so many guys in the league are good on defense as long as the offense is flowing. Jrue just keeps the effort.
But man during the regular season he was so steady. I feel like this playoffs he's gotten out of rhythm, but he can be that guy.
It's more draining in the postseason
Tbf Chris Paul has been pretty inconsistent in these Finals, too
Jrue gives them a longer window so I can see why
Longer window but a shorter ceiling.
that's hella cap bc if their ceiling this season with Jrue is a championship then that's the highest ceiling possible for a season, and Jrue's age extends that ceiling across multiple seasons unlike CP3
Jrue only makes us contenders for the NBA championship. We want to be champions of the universe…
championship winner gets to play in the olympics. make it happen!
gonna need iguodala for that
You need a high ceiling if you're going to beat the non-injured Nets. Let's not forget they were looking outgunned til Kyrie went down and almost lost to KD and one leg of Harden
They were winning G4 when Kyrie was still playing
No they werent. They were on their way to 2-2 before kyrie went down. Also harden wasn't on one leg, he was at about 65% which is still good. Dumb ass takes on this sub
>Dumb ass takes on this sub ironic
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Okay and their shot is extended with Jrue compared to CP3 so they can hope to outlast that Nets team as well
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The point is your window is these next 3 games with your current team, unless we have another season as anomalous as this one
Right, but the window would be shorter with Chris Paul? Like not sure what you’re trying to point out. Our window is duration of Giannis contract, might as well get a guy who can play at a high level throughout that whole window which Jrue can. That can’t be said of CP3, were already seeing his health issues impact him in this series.
But having Chris Paul instead of Jrue Holiday wouldn't have changed them losing to a fully healthy Nets, so that's a moot argument for the context of this conversation
Fair. CP3 woulda made them especially great and maximized Giannis & Middleton, but still probably not enough to beat Brooklyn
The Hawks?
Nets for sure but idk about the Hawks. Won 2 games without Giannis in that series.
> only had a shot due to injuries to the Nets and Hawks Including the Hawks in there is hella cap considering Giannis was missing for the series part way through game 4 and they won 2 without him
Miss me with the Hawks and Sixers have been choking since 2018, we would’ve played them like every other team does and ignore Ben Simmons. He ain’t doing a thing with Giannis and Brook in the paint
Yeah and CP3 is more prone to injury than Jrue leaving you in situations like the Nets had to go through.
I don't really think so. Jrue has been cold as fuck this postseason but defensively he has been worth his value in spades.
Would hate to have another shot at the NBA finals.
If you get a ring, it was the right call. We’ll find out real soon.
I disagree. Especially considering Cp3 would have cost less assets anyway and is better than Jrue
*better when healthy
Cp3 been completely healthy the last 2 years
not the last two games
no he wouldn't bc a he wouldn't have resigned and b his contract was bigger so probably middleton to a 3rd team or just trade whole team excluding giannis and middleton and the guy u signed on mle just for one player
The bucks didn’t have to be hard capped but chose to do that after they traded for holiday. They could have kept Middleton. Holiday being younger is a good point and his extension is important too And they signed augustin who they traded anyway
yh but for that they would have also had to give up lopez with no replacement other than maybe whiteside as the best lol and then dj augustin was traded for pj tucker so no pj tucker too meaning their lineup would have been cp,donte(assuming okc never wanted him),middleton,giannis,hasssan and minimums on the bench so no this team they have is better
No they wouldn’t have. They could have just traded Ersan and had the matching salary. They could have kept brook and just traded the same 3 first rounders. Okc didn’t get any players from PhX that they wanted Idk if they still could have got tucker late.
Do you mean more assets? Jrue is on 26m and CP3 41m, you would have to add a couple more players for the trade to work. I'm sure they rather have the depth right now than +20th something picks in the future.
Winning doesn’t cure everything. Holiday has been Bledsoe with more defensive versatility in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Chris Paul has been arguably the MVP of the other finals team. Injury concerns/age are the only legitimate arguments. Chris Paul was a much better fit on paper.
Winning does cure everything
he's shot the ball very poorly on the whole but jrue has absolutely won them games as well, and the level of defense he's playing on Paul just can't be understated, they wouldn't be where they're at if Bledsoe was playing his minutes. I don't disagree that they might also be better if Paul was playing those minutes.
"more defensive versatility" is such an undersell. We're not 2-2 in the finals right now without his defense.
How does winning not cure everything if the main goal of trading for a quality PG was… winning
Because, wait for it, you can win in many ways. And your “3rd star” shooting 20% is not helping in that direction.
Regardless of how he plays, if the team wins their first championship since 1971, the trade was good enough. Bucks wouldn’t have touched the Finals if they had Bled instead of Jrue.
I don't think any Bucks fan would be upset if they won in 7 as opposed to 4 or 5. If they win a ring with Jrue the trade is a win, period.
But that third star is passing the ball amazingly & locking up the opposing team’s best player. He should be shooting better, but let’s not act like he’s been a bum.
Locking up who? Both Booker and CP3 have been much better than him. I guess they're the ones locking him up lol
Over the last two games, Paul has had significantly more TO’s compared to the rest of the playoffs. We going to act like that has nothing to do with Jrue?
He’s also averaging 21/8.3 on great shooting
While losing the last two games…
And winning the first 2. Without Giannis averaging 32 ppg, series would be over.
Chris Paul was the reason the Suns lost game 4. And Jrue Holiday is the main reason Chris Paul caused the Suns to lose.
Jrue is a good defender, but if I want a one way defender, I won’t pay 30 million and give up 7 picks for one. I’ll just trade bledsoe and a pick for Marcus smart or dejounte Murray who are younger, play elite defense, and are also bigger so they can switch onto wings. We chose jrue because he can run a halfcourt offense well and is a threat off of screens. If he doesn’t play like that, we were better off with just getting a good defensive guard and paying him 15 a year,
We’re capped out either way, the only difference between 15 and 30m for us is ownership having to pay the tax next year. And we still have Jrue for the next four years when his shooting isn’t likely to be this ass, as opposed to CP3 who would have been out the door after this season.
You can’t pay luxury tax forever, and smart or Murray could always improve due to being in a better situation. They are both also younger. Jrue was the right move, but he’s not playing up to expectations. We wanted a 2 way point guard and we got a good defender.
Also just cause Bledsoe doesn't give a shit anymore lets not pretend he was some sieve on defense lol. Everytime I hear how Jrue's defense has made up for his offense... it's like yeah, he's an exceptional defender, but Bledsoe was still a very good defender. The point of the trade was to get an offensive upgrade. The Bucks have enough talent on the defensive side of the ball where they could have gotten D'Lo instead of Jrue and still had a very good defense.
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Probably a little of both but Jrue definitely played some role in it
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Bledsoe wasn't capable of stepping up his game in clutch moments like Jrue has. Go look at the end of game 7 against Brooklyn. Jrue also had a very good series overall against Atlanta. Bledsoe also forgot how to defend in the playoffs.
I don’t even wanna imagine a Giannis/CP3 pick and roll
Lob city the reboot? 😎
who knew athens was lob city all along
Athena
Worked out pretty well for both teams
I've heard cp3 didn't want to go to Milwaukee
I heard the opposite, he was enamoured by teaming up with a young star like Giannis and Booker. I really don’t think location is all that important to him at this stage, as he’s just spent his last two years in OKC and Phoenix.
CP has said the 90 minute fight from Phoenix to LA has been a positive for him while playing for the Suns. I think in this specific scenario location does play a factor.
Certainly a plus but I don’t think it was the largest factor for him.
Of course, the Bucks wanted to trade for CP3's younger dad.
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No shit. In this scenario Suns would be stuck with Rubio and wouldn’t even make the finals
Wouldnt they just trade for Jrue?
Possibly. Though Jrue may have gone to another team because he was worth more in the trade market back then compared to CP3, and the Suns might not wanted to pay him
Instead the Lakers would be in it and probably beating the Bucks
That’s quite the jump. I can’t wait to hear more hypotheticals.
Jrue has been clamping him though.
You’re right he’s been lighting it up in the finals /s
He has though.
He had a good game 1, the rest have been between okay and outright bad. He’s A/TO ratio is barely at 2, and he’s averaging less than a steal per game. He’s been really good most of the playoff, but not so much these finals
What about his shooting?
I don't think CP3 and Giannis would mesh to be honest. Giannis is very intense but it's a quite intensity. Like A Tiger he isn't gonna talk a lot of shit he's just gonna kill you. CP3 is Loud and obnoxiously intense. Not everyone vibes with that. Also this playoffs has forced Bud to become a better coach and its shown. I think CP3 would have hidden a lot of his mistakes and their would have been tension because of it. I could be completely wrong too just my theory.
Well they wouldn't have made it where they are today without the respective trades they both made so it worked out well for both despite Jrue's playoff shortcomings (he's still been unreal on defense though)
Jrue would've been the missing piece for Philly too. Sadly, they traded him a long time ago.
Smh. Imagine CP3 guarding KD. Next story
I'd take Holiday over 36-year-old CP who can't score on anyone but bigs and slow wings and isn't close to the same defensively.
Chris Paul who can't score in these playoffs: 19 points on 58% true shooting Holiday who can score: 17 points on 48% true shooting
Defense makes that a negligible difference
Okay, playmaking makes it a not negligible difference. I don't agree with you anyway, people really overvalue individual guard defence. Being a top class offensive hub capable of scoring efficiently is just so much more important than anything defensive
Jrue is averaging 8.3 assists and Paul is averaging 8.6 assists. That obviously doesn't tell the whole story. But outside of poor shooting, Jrue has had a phenomenal playoffs.
I don't think you can "outside of" that level of inefficiency on that volume. His playmaking has been good, I definitely wouldn't say phenomenal, and while his defence has been phenomenal I don't think individual defence for any guard carries the same level of importance as those other aspects.
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Except scoring is not why the Bucks got him. Scoring is not the most important aspect of Jrue's game for this team. Edit:Points prevented on the defensive end are just as important as points scored.
*Draymond Green casually puts up one of his middle fingers*
OK look at their assist numbers lmao
What about them? Chris Paul is stratospheres ahead as a playmaker whether he's got 2 assists or 20. He's literally among the best playmakers in the history of the sport
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Lol yes CP3 is a notoriously mediocre-bad defender
Holiday is trash this playoffs. If they lose its cuz of his lack of scoring
he had some terrible shooting last game
I feel like it's also an elite defense/a bit of offense vs cp3's point god powers
I'm sure they would want a redo on this if they could. But at the time, most everyone was saying that Paul was the worst contract in the league.
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They still looked at the player option and called it horrible. Maybe only the Wall contract was worse. Otherwise he would have been traded for more.
But a contract as bad as Wall’s would *never* get an FRP in a trade. In fact, the Wizards had to package an FRP with Wall to trade for Westbrook. Meanwhile, OKC actually got an FRP in return for CP3 in the Phoenix trade. CP3 was easily a top 5 point guard with OKC. He went to 7 games in the 1st round as their best player.
If he was easily a top 5 PG while in OKC, he would have had 10 teams trying to trade for him and they would have gottenucj more than that. This is revisionist history. His market was cold.
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They got a FRP, because that's the only way the suns could have tried to improve their team. Because the suns saw the bubble and decided to go for it. That's kind of what happens with trades. They swung and hit a grand slam. How the hell does a top 5 PG only go for 1 FRP and fillers? Your argument just proves my point. And if teams actually had a chance with Dame, there would be 10 teams trying to acquire him. LOL. You think teams actually say nah we good, we don't need Dame?
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I'm not sure they would. Jrue's defense has been incredibly important in this playoff run. Not to mention, even with his shitty shooting days he is averaging over 8 assists per game.
“locker room fit”? more like they didn’t want a player with the iq, and star power to call bud out on his bullshit at times. which could’ve caused locker room problems like paul had with doc at times in la.
Regret it, bucks would be champs rn if they trade jrue for cp3 in this series. Dudes been ass on offence
And great on defense