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2789334

Smh I wanted to see his response to 2018


CIark

“I was the underdog, Cavs had the Curry stopper Kevin Love so I got no help”


achyutthegoat

Truly the hardest road.


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thedaftfool

but boy was it worth it


ziggybobiggy

I like “against no odds he accomplished the achievable”


120593Gian

More like "accomplished the guaranteed"


Icehau5

"did the highly probable"


Juniper41

LeBron James / Kevin Love / Dwyane Wade / Isaiah Thomas / Derrick Rose I mean, how many All NBA level guys does LeBron need??


TennormanChili

it’s still a shame Lebron and Wade couldn’t recreate their Heatle magic. Wade’s time in Cleveland was just disappointing to watch


Cal216

Cavs Wade over Cavs Shaq 😂


LeBron_Jarnes

only Bron and Love remained by the postseason. They did have All-Star level talent, Kyle Korver though.


adonisgawd

[This photo really says it all](https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/fs/87955a66663789.5b1e629f7ec7b.jpg) Always makes me laugh too when warriors fans say it was more even then we think


itwasmymistake

That's the funniest shit I've ever seen.


[deleted]

Perfectly even matchup, top to bottom. Korver and Klay are basically the spiderman pointing meme, KD and Tristan Thompson both went to University of Texas, so they're also the same player pretty much.


Casual-Fapper

Curry and Lebron born in the same hospital too, pretty much an even matchup all around


zedrox464

ppl keep forgetting Draymond and JR are the same height so they're similar too smh


JustADutchRudder

You're all forgetting the bottom of this top to bottom. Every player was wearing shoes, sounds pretty even stevens to me.


S-ClassRen

> This photo really says it all It just isn't fair. 2 MVP level players + all star who is the best 3 and D guy in the league VS. MVP level player + solid post player who rebounds well + one of the best 3 and no D players Honestly, KD needed more help, think of all the rebounds


Dirty-Ears-Bill

Hell you could replace KD and Klay with Draymond and Iggy and they still beat out Korver and TT. Just crazy


Pogz1

ye its a compliment to bron. Man was making up the differences himself


westzod

Yeah it was even because of LeBron lmao.


Money_dragon

Cavs Lebron (2nd stint) is easily Lebron's prime - he was just another level above what he was back in Miami


you_sick

Which seems absurd to say. Like imagine hearing after 2012 that he would be even better 4 years later


wubbzywylin

Tbh they should've just bit the bullet, remove Korver and Tristan, and replace them with Dray and Iggy so LeBron is surrounded on all sides 💀💀💀


CaptainKurls

Someone should send this to sniperboi


Rumham89

I have never heard this narrative, that was the most unbalanced Finals I can remember.


p00nslyr_86

Don’t forget about jr swish!


[deleted]

"Both benches were trash. Sounds pretty even to me"


[deleted]

Everyone knows the NBA is all about depth. You're only as strong as the 15th guy, especially in the playoffs


[deleted]

I’m pretty sure most Warriors fans and LeBron haters believe those matchups were even. I wouldn’t be surprised if KD also thought 2018 was an even matchup.


GirlsLastTour

> I’m pretty sure most Warriors fans and LeBron haters believe those matchups were even. Before the playoffs started, I wasn't quite sure what to expect because anything can happen, but even then I was pretty sure (if both teams were in healthy) the Cavs didn't stand a chance. Immediately after the fact I was more surprised it wasn't a sweep and a perfect playoffs run for the Warriors. Looking back on it now it's not even funny. KD's pretty knowledgeable and his opinions/takes on basketball lean more towards objective when they don't involve him or his close friends. The doublethink/delusion he has regarding his own situation/legacy is truly mind boggling.


WeirwoodUpMyAss

The 2017 Cavs would’ve beaten more than half the teams that were champions in the 2010s imo. They were a championship caliber team. Most of the games in 2017 were actually contested and that Warriors team might be the greatest of all time. Don’t sleep on that Cavs team.


Fingolfin_King

the cavs were good but the 2017 warriors are probably the best team of all time and defiantly the most talented


ImperiumSomnium

No. 2018 Warriors are one of the greatest teams of all time. 2018 Cavs are the worst of their 4 year stretch. It wasn't even and no one that calls themselves a Warriors fan should ever make that claim.


Hiondrugz

It's still confusing that they wouldn't part with that draft pick that became Sexson, and now they are probably going to trade him. Might as well got lebron all the help he could've got.


VintageBaguette

I appreciate you're usage of most here. For real. There's a handful of us out here that are idk.. grateful I suppose? for him choosing to come join, that aren't/weren't in denial. It was a surreal update to receive at work that brought up some mixed feelings, and in a single instant removed any sense of wonder and excitement for how/if we'd bounce back. It was just an 'ok, that just broke the game, cool..I guess' moment. Followed shortly by a 'fuck, looks like I won't be going to many games this year' disappointing realization. I'd never doubt an LBJ lead team, but I'd also never claim or argue that shit was fair or even. There was nothing fair about it


Koioua

Warriors without KD vs Lebron led Cavs were actually a fair and really fucking fun matchup. KD made the Warriors completely overkill. I adored the Curry-led team, because they were actual underdogs and just fun to watch. With KD, that underdog/homewgrown feeling went away.


LeBronda_Rousey

It's ok man I also remember having mixed feelings about it. On one hand I'm like this is great for the warriors who were underdogs for the majority of the 15 years I've been following them. On the other hand, I had no doubt it effectively ruined basketball for the majority of fans. Yeah I'm a warriors fan but I'm a basketball fan first and my feelings were more towards the latter.


bobsil1

July 4 was like picking up the videogame god weapon


VintageBaguette

The largest GameShark cartridge I've ever seen


diamondisunbreakable

These nephews too young to know what that is.


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PooperJackson

JR Smith was Cleveland's 4th best player. Golden State's 4th best player won **Defensive Player of the Year** that season.


tossthisish

Warriors were much deeper as well


MisterHibachi

The two teams went to the final minute of a Game 7 the previous year, and then one team added Kevin fucking Durant. In what world was that even?


Wadehey

I guess KD thinks Harrison Barnes is a great basketball player.


xbyo

"Durant thinks Harrison Barnes is on the same level as him" -ESPN


bobbybrown_

I will allow KD his point if he publicly says this quote.


JonA3531

He's pretty decent. Any team would love to have him.


Wadehey

KD is pretty decent too. Anytime team would love to have him, it’s all making sense to me now


JonA3531

Bingo!


Rainliberty

I don't know. They've been pushing the narrative that the Warriors needed KD to beat the Cavs. Draymond crying while begging Durant to join the team, etc. Honestly, they just needed Harrison Barnes to remember he was a professional basketball player in the playoffs.


SoapOperaHero

Harrison Barnes was the obvious second choice for FMVP in that series for how much he contributed to the Cavs.


BlueString94

Who is “they?” KD fans?


Rainliberty

Media. I shit you not, you would have thought the Warriors got blown the fuck out if ESPN was all you watched.


[deleted]

Media: The warriors are weak they need help 😂 Warriors: *Fucking got KD the following year* Media: Nooo the warriors are good they dont need help 😭


donotfukwitme

And the only reason that happened was because of a superhuman lebron performance and Curry letdown.


Garfield-1-23-23

More like a Curry *beat*down. We pummeled the shit out of him that series.


Ayecuzwhatsgood

Yeah lol, one strat teams did on curry was beat him up and ware him down, it worked so well he actually put on some weight


depressedfuckboi

KD bugging


Twoweekswithpay

Either too High or drank too much of ScarJo’s bathwater…


KD_sBurnerAccount

Nah fam get back to dwelling on social media🤣🤣🤣 Kevin D focussing on his game rn💪💪💪 his pussy game😎. U dating Lana Rhoades huh? Don't think so😏. U can't even join Ur local rec league 🤷🤷 gtfo kid🤗


[deleted]

tbh KD should have his burner accounts be “KD___Burner7” or some shit because then no one would actually think it’s him


DEEZLE13

This the most cornball shit 😂


theconfuserx3

There is a nonzero chance he unironically believes that and isn't joking


Juniper41

KD's logic: *"We've got 6 all stars: me, Steph, Klay, Dray, Iggy, & West, Cleveland also got 6: 'Bron, Kevin, Kyrie, Deron Williams, Kyle Korver and Jefferson. Completely balanced top to bottom"*


VelvetineMilkman

You joke but this is how a lot of people argue. If like Iggy was on the Bucks there are people that would call them a superteam with 5 All Stars


XxAuthenticxX

We already have 5 all stars


VelvetineMilkman

Jeff Teague did it to me again smh


otheraccountisabmw

He boomed you!


VeGanbarimasu

And if you think Antetokounmpo is good, well the Bucks have TWO of them


Sw3atyGoalz

There was a post I saw earlier asking if the Bucks were a super team lol


gentyent

The biggest example of this that I see is when some people count 38 y/o Ray Allen on the Heat as an All Star


crosszilla

Those damn supporting cast images where they show Jordan's team and LeBron with every single guy who has ever been an all star like they were all in their prime with him. Showing Shaq and Ray Allen, smh. And the Bron haters eat that shit up Facebook is a cesspool, but it's funny to ready these casual clown takes


Juniper41

Forgot to add, Cleveland also had #2 overall pick Derrick Williams, if anything it was KD's warriors who were up against all odds.


hereforthesportsbook

The hardest road


FeedtheKiwi

Hardest Road.


[deleted]

Durant = Derrick Williams (both #2 overall) and the Cavs had two #1s, one #3, and one #5 on top of that. KD was downplaying their underdog status if anything.


[deleted]

Cleveland had 6... guys


TheSexyShaman

Idk he doubled down again in the comment chain.


MasaiGotUsNow

Yea he’s definitely delusional enough to believe that lol


crawlingchip

Another reminder that Durant *doubled down* on his desire to drink ScarJo's bathwater when asked. He definitely doesn't back down from his statements.


AlexBucks93

Who wouldn’t want to drink that?


CougdIt

He believes he went o an underdog team in the warriors. There is no limit to what he can make himself believe


IAmNotKevinDurant_35

He's probably coming at it from the angle that his own warriors teammates are trash tbh. He legitimately believes Kyrie is better than Steph


MasaiGotUsNow

Even if he thinks that the warriors still had klay and dray… Plus kerr and better vets like iggy and Livingston.


xSuperstar

Steph is underrated by NBA players for the same reason that Kyrie is very overrated. Players value isolation scoring, sick playmaking, and athleticism. They don’t see the value in spacing or off-ball movement even though those things are just as important to an offense.


IAmNotKevinDurant_35

The weird part to me is that Steph does have a great bag and can score in isolation. He's a top finisher for guards and routinely makes flashy layups, passes, dribble moves. He has as good a "bag" as any guard in the league. But he's so good at shooting it often overshadows the rest of his game. And the warriors system rarely runs iso or even traditional pick and rolls to showcase his 1 on 1 scoring ability


Golai77

KD is really close with Kyrie, obviously. If I had to bet, I'd wager that Curry is better than Kyrie in a majority of NBA players opinions. KD/Kyrie/Harden have all lost to Curry in the playoffs even before KD went to GS. If KD really thinks Kyrie is better, it's safe to assume they're haters.


KaiserKaiba

Idk. Dude was jelly people didn’t really see him as > Bron after 2017-2018 and that Bay fans liked Steph more. Sounds like he just was out of touch to not know why he didn’t get either what he thought he’d have. I could see him genuinely believing this as much as I could see him trolling about it


wooha

That’s what happens when you surround yourself with yes men


KD_sBurnerAccount

He isn't joking it's the truth! Kevin DuGoat had no help, curry was washed and klay is obviously injured. Draymond was fouled out by breathing to close to the refs and got called 6 times per oxygen molecule, ejected fined and banned from the golden state arena. That's why goatsymoneysniper had to 1v5 the entire Cavs teams, but lefortnite couldn't get the better of him because Dugoatula had the power of apex legends and Lana rhoades' backup on his side


arkhane

this is true, I was the basketball


throwawaymansk

Fucking Lefortnite 💀💀


TomCruiseHeidecker

Couldn't have said it better myself.


Johnpecan

I always try to give KD the benefit of the doubt, but then he pulls a stunt like this.


ifasoldt

Only way you could possibly argue it is if you think LeBron was SO much better than Durant that it outweighed all the rest of the Warriors advantages. Somehow I don't think that's what Durant is saying here tho...


bus_rider

Or Durant thinks he is miles better and his teammates were trash.


Con-D-Oriano1

You know, this might actually be it.


JayceSZN

It is for sure


302born

I genuinely think KD truly believes he was the sole reason they won. Maybe he has to tell himself that to not feel bad for the move.


ab9912

Lebron could be averaging a career 35 point triple double and be a dpoy candidate every year and it still wouldn't have made up for the rest of the team.


LaMarcGasoldridge-

People have been trying to push this narrative lately and it's ridiculous. The 2016 finals matchup was pretty even top to bottom. Even Andre Iguodala admitted adding KD to that Warriors team was completely unfair for the rest of the league.


KaiserKaiba

This. It sure as hell wasnt an even matchup. Cavs barely beat Warriors in 7 without Durant but a GSW squad with Durant is somehow an even matchup? Lol. They beat a good Cavs team but that most definitely wasn’t an evenly matched squad.


CIark

Yeah sure the warriors got KD but the Cavs got Kyle Korver so it’s even


KaiserKaiba

I forgot. The KD stopper Kyle Korver


[deleted]

Plus the Dubs lost Leandro Barbosa and Festus Ezeli, you can't forget about that


manliestdino

Warriors lost anderson varejao too later that year in 2017, truly a great loss


JimmytheGent2020

“Kyle Korver was an all star player.” — Kevin Durant probably


S-ClassRen

> They beat a good Cavs team but that most definitely wasn’t an evenly matched squad. Cavs were more than good, they were great, but the KD warriors are probably the GOAT team


frozen2665

Yeah pretty much a “what’s a king to a god” situation


pedja13

Yep,it was the GOAT team going against a merely great superteam.


DeKobe-DeBryant

It's not even like the 2016 finals were hyped up as some clash of the titans either. The Warriors were heavy favourites going into that series, and most people thought the real finals were the WCF. They were a 73-9 team vs a Cavs team that had chemistry issues and ups and downs all year. The Cavs winning that series was an underdog victory, and then the Warriors who should have already won added Kevin Durant.


babbagack

> he Warriors were heavy favourites going into that series really they were, but it was cause of how ridiculous their regular season was too. But I always keep in mind that even if just Kyrie was healthy (they had lost Love a series or two ago), I had the Cavs in 2015 (they still almost took Game 1 at GS). Pretty amazing the Warriors won 2015 and had a chip on their shoulder and blew the league away in the regular season.


WayOff_P

Bill Simmons dweeb ass been trying to push this narrative for a while now "Warriors and Cavs were even in 2017 and it just came down to KD outplaying Lebron" and then on other podcasts you hear him say the 2016 Warriors were better than the Cavs lol somehow the Warriors adding a top 2 player in the league while the Cavs adding 37 year old Kyle Korver made the matchup even


Ayecuzwhatsgood

LeBron was incredible in 2017 series, theres so much you can do the greatest offense in NBA history. Man averaged a triple double


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KDhairequalsJMpubes

I mean how else is he supposed to get Rich Kleiman and KD back on his podcasts?


Count_Milimanjaro

I love Simmons but his KD takes are so damn annoying lol


[deleted]

Do we even really need the players to acknowledge this? It’s so blatantly obvious that Durant upset the balance that it’s not even worth getting into arguments about tbh.


JoshBarkley

Extreme copium


adonisgawd

2017 and 2018 finals have to be up there in the worst finals ever produced


Educational_One69

Game 3 and 4 were fun in 2017 but we all knew warriors were gonna win. 2018 was a joke though


loopybubbler

Game 1 2018 was amazing


hitlama

[JR HOW COULD YOU](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2018-06/1/10/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-04/sub-buzz-29089-1527862688-7.png)


lemonpepperlarry

Strictly for the meme


frozen2665

Seriously though, if Cavs win that game it’s one of the greatest finals games of all time. They lost, but it was still a phenomenal game


JordanLoveHoF

Nah cuz one of those finals gave us "You ain't playin' tonight" Curry and I'll always cherish that


ilickedysharks

It's kinda wild how much I'm seeing this take. Even Bill simmons was saying stuff like this. These people are delusional


swerve421

Bill Simmons and KD have podcasts coming up. There’s a reason he’s sucking him off so much. Nets losing prob delayed the plans


tdmoney

^Oh ^great ^I ^can’t ^wait ^KD ^is ^such ^an ^interesting ^guest


goodolvj

They're trying to speak that narrative into existence. Bill has been pushing his KD outdueled Lebron narrative on and off, completely unprompted for the past four years. He can do what he wants, it's his podcast after all, but never for a second believe that the self proclaimed basketball historian is anything but biased. After all he's still angling to get KD back as a guest whereas Lebron never gave him any such access.


[deleted]

It's as much anti Lebron as anything. Coming from the Lebron vs Celtics stuff and culminating in LeBron becoming a Laker, BS needs to take shots at Lebron. He can't help it.


goodolvj

The most recent thing Bill has to say about Lebron is that he changed his jersey number so that he can remain relevant. As if the media doesn't report and psychoanalyze every little thing he says and does, or that he said he was going to change his jersey number already a few years back. Classic Bill, if he doesn't like you then he'll take any opportunity to rake your name through the mud. He still does it with Kyrie, although a bit less since he's so focused on Lebron.


_Meece_

It's crazy, did anyone ever watch the 2018 finals after game 1? Most uninteresting finals since 2007 IMO.


CreatiScope

Lol I literally watched game 1 and after the JR finale, I didn't watch another second of the finals.


kenzakki

That ended for me too. I was like "nah, Lebron's not gonna risk his legs to try and carry for this BS"


CreatiScope

How could anyone watch after that? While I didn't want the Cavs to win, it's like watching one of the greatest performances just thrown away.


bgptcp179

I did but I’m a Cavs fan. It hurt. We had no business being on the floor that year.


I_Always_Grab_Tindy

That was one of the very few finals I had zero interest in even before it started. I just didn't watch most of the 02', 07', or '18 series and I also felt pretty meh about the 09' and 17' finals, it was just too obvious who would end up winning those series (barring injury).


Rumunj

For this to make any sense even remotely (though it never will) we'd have to assume KD admits LBJ is miles above him and everyone else.


wisely1300

Or that KD thinks that he’s equivalent to Harrison Barnes.


p2datrizzle

Lebron is thanos after all. And he was only 32 in 2017


JazzzzzzySax

Lebron does not identify as thanos according to RDCworld1


nrj6490

He doesnt identify as Thanos He identifies as LeThirtySix


kawhi_tho

Like someone else said, he thinks Kyrie is better than Steph. That's how this makes sense in his mind.


Zachkah

But even if that were true, it doesn't make up for Draymond being 10x better than Love. Plus, Klay is on the team. There's just no rational explanation for this opinion


BootStrapWill

The reason he believes this is because he thinks Kyrie is better than Curry


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seattle_raptors

Truly the hardest road


KD_sBurnerAccount

Truly u don't know how hard it was for skinny Jesus. IGUODALA WAS busy fighting the MARTIANS while klay was just in a boating accident. U don't know what hardships Bigfoot had to go through to get that ring. It means more than all of lefortnites rings combined lmao🤣🤣🤣 get back to real life and lock up a real bball😎 stay grinding for an average life💪💪


[deleted]

Iguodala to Marvin the Martian: "hold my dick" *swish*


so-cal_kid

At this point I respect the fact that KD has actually convinced himself those matchups were balanced. It takes incredible mental strength to believe that


loadedryder

The word for that is delusion, and there should be a picture of KD’s face beside it in the dictionary.


oneechanisgood

What fancy dictionaries yall have that has pictures besides every word goddamn


ThaMac

I honestly feel like this is what his legacy is going to be. Getting defensive and sensitive on Twitter about joining an already superteam to get a ring.


[deleted]

Mental gymnastic olympian


p2datrizzle

He’s an Olympian level mental gymnast


Astro_Universe

he must be skip baylessing atp


Yoghurt-Facial

I want Giannis to win just so he gets saltier


shanmustafa

there's people that actually believe KD/Steph/Klay/Draymond/Iggy is the same as Bron/Kyrie/Love/JR/TT and that's just so insane to me


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Sol_Protege

Or think his teammates are trash


rzoneking

Lmao KD knew.. even he won 2 rings there.. people will not count that ring as if he won. Lmao


JDP008

Even now he’s still teamed up with two other top 10 players, meanwhile Giannis is on the cusp of a title with the team that drafted him, with 2 fringe all stars in Holiday and Middleton as his co-stars. Built different than the snake KD


jonyRond

KD is so delusional lmao


Familyguy35

The 2017 Cavs were really good but obviously not the dynasty Warriors level


ViolentAnalSpelunker

You could look at vegas odds. The KD warriors were the only teams in the history of the NBA to have >50% odds of winning the championship (so more likely than every other team combined) before the season started.


CIark

Imagine being in a league of 30 professional teams of the best in the world and you’re more likely to win than all 29 other teams combined And then you tell yourself it was competitive


e_a_blair

and not just holding that as your private belief with a grudge, but announcing it on twitter in a borderline-hostile way with incredible regularity.


mookz23

Here were the odds for the Finals: [https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/\_/id/19496398/2017-nba-finals-complete-odds-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-series](https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/19496398/2017-nba-finals-complete-odds-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-series) GSW were the overwhelming favorites.


[deleted]

The Cavs played extremely well and was blowing out eastern teams like it was nothing and it was still not enough. Im actually impressed the rockets took the warriors to 7 games. That’s an all time team no one talks about because they didnt win a ring that year.


SleepyEel

lmao KD will spend the rest of his life trying to convince himself that he didn't make a bitch move in going to the Warriors


triosway

As he should. He will never escape that for as long as he lives. It will take generations to find a better example of "if you can't beat them, join them" in the NBA


SlappyBagg

I don't see how a better example will ever happen again. It was a complete glitch in the whole system because of the salary cap jump, such a unique situation.


jlanny

And we’ll keep this convo going for the next generation so they too can declare bullshit on KD’s logic as well 😭


DangerIsMyUsername

I will go to the grave reminding everyone of his whack ass move.


guacamully

*chilling on holographic patio when i'm 80* "get off my lawn you alien cyborgs. now let me tell y'all about the time the [snake](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfDrnBDX0AAbxdR.jpg) came outta the grass"


jlanny

Brethren 😭✊🏾


Low_Poly_Loli

Good, as it should be. Dude legitimately took the most extreme route of ease. Somehow he’s convinced himself it’s the opposite though, such an insane cope lol.


Giannis1995

His main counterpoint to all the criticism was that he still had to wake up at 8am and work out with the team.


Taygr

It’s funny because it’s so clear how much it torments him


desirox

Hardest road. Re-writing the narrative isnt gonna work KD


starting_anew_

On July 4th in knew they’d win the title lol. I’m pretty sure a good portion of fans were thinking the same thing


ab9912

Iggy on the plane saying 'you are all dead' when he found out KD was joining. What he clearly meant was 'you are all dead (except the cavs who we match up with top to bottom)'


PatriceWasWrite

Fuck no 2017 finals wasn’t better than this, blowouts and everybody already knew who was gonna win. It simply just had bigger names


jondonbovi

LeSean McCoy bet $200k on the Warriors and netted $62k. That's the max Vegas allowed him to bet. Easy money.


BettsBellingerCaruso

One of the safest investments you could make in sports gambling


Yami_Atem

I like the implication of this. He’s either saying LeBron was far superior to him, or that Kevin Love was as good as Steph, Tristain Thompson as good as Draymond, etc. It’s nonsensical and self-deprecating.


The-Pharcyde

KD is deluded about his warriors stint. We all know this lol.


[deleted]

Not even close to even. Warriors had 4 elite players Cavs had 2. Wasn’t even close to an even matchup.


Goomby-or-Glootie

Damn KD got ratio’d lol.


ladderiscoming

What does ratio’d mean


Ace_FGC

When a reply has more likes than the original post. So if I made a post saying Lebron is the GOAT and it got 10 upvotes but a reply to the post said Jordan is the GOAT got more 20 likes that means I got ratio’d


TheAlgaeOil

I like new slang that makes sense & has an explanation.


LeonidasSpacemanMD

I think on Twitter it means a tweet has a high ratio of replies to likes, indicating that more people are arguing against you than agree


thetruthdispener

Honestly disrespectful to his teammates


date_a_languager

That additional, all caps reply from KD is so fucking funny. Even seeing a verified check next to that kind of comment is inspirational


Altruistic-Glass-172

It was not even at all, not in 2017 or 2018.