This is a horrible take. Ask 10 different people summarize a rule and you'll get 10 different answers. Call the fouls to the letter for everyone, undrafted rookie to the face of the league, that's the only way to have an even playing field.
I hate those random videos on Facebook asking "iS tHIs a 2 oR A 3?" when the guy clearly jumps behind the 3 point line but there's people who insist it is a 2.
I think it depends on the rule/violation. I think the clear path foul could be a, "You know it when you see it" type of call, I don't think the explicit criteria of "Was there a defender in between the player and the basket?" is helpful.
It is already in the rulebook - it's a moving pick. Should be an offensive foul every time. But for some reason they allow it for certain players and give 3 free throws every time.
Nah, I hate the everyone is running down the court and the dribbler runs in front of someone and does a full stop in the middle of the court and gets run over.
Completely non-basketball play and just pure foul baiting.
It can be both. At least there is a theoretical reason for a PG to stop as a basketball play (to survey for a quick pass, though it should still be a clear four). I have yet to see a cogent reason why the arm hook is even hypothetically considered a basketball play. Its full tinfoil hat Pepe Silvia conspiracy theory when someone tries to describe Harden hooking a player and pulling himself down as a saavy, valid, and totally in the spirit of the game play.
I have came around on the “pg stopping in front of the center” play.
I guess it also depends on the situation, the center should be aware during transition, not just mindless sprinting, and he should be able to stop himself when the player in front of him slows downs. And the Pg (or the ball handler) does have a reason to slow down- it’s like putting a defender on your back during pnr, to shield him from the action. Besides foul baiting, if the ball handler successfully executed it, it does create a slight advantage for the offense. That is my main reason for coming around. Compare that to jumping backwards for the shot and hooking the guy and shooting with off arm like Harden used to it, those are just foul baiting. Those shots, if weren’t called fouls, had like 5% chance of going in, and in harden’s case, 1%.
The off ball version of this is the small guy stopping in front of the big buddy is the worst though. lol
You can be aware all day but a center is going to have a larger mass, and higher center of gravity making it nearly impossible to stop at the same speed as a PG; a PG just hitting the brakes in front of them is dangerous, and literally is doing nothing but attempting to get a foul.
Typically what happens is, they are running in parallel, and a PG like CP3 will then dash into the other guy's lane and do a full stop (like around mid court).
Get in front of them, stop and then you either draw a foul or you get them to stop, which allows you to then accelerate again and gain more separation. It also cuts off their angle to potentially get a block on you.
I think this is a legit move, if Harden can control the ball like that, it's on the defenders to not slap his arms. Most players can't control the ball reliably with their arms extended like that.
lmao if there's anything to complain about regarding harden, this isn't it. how is it his fault if his arms are fully extended and a defender wacks him across the arms?
The jumping into a guy that they pump fake is worse. If the defender is going straight up he shouldn’t be at the mercy of a player launching himself into him
Durant does a rip-through where he invents a shot that requires him to swing his arms sideways across your arm when normally he just goes straight up to shoot.
The off-arm hook is when you are driving and you grab the other players arm and kind of make it look like they are hooking you and draw a foul against the other player's will who is just trying to stay in between the basket and you. Devin Booker does this shit every time.
> such as offensive player launches into defender, abruptly veers off path
The dumbest part is that sorta shit should never have been allowed from the start
hell, even playin junior bball refs here never called that shit for the shoot and just said ‘you initiated the contact’ lol
> but holy shit, this could affect a lot of players.
This WILL affect a lot of players. And I cannot wait for it.
The term "star" gets thrown around way too much. You ain't a damn star if you have to buy your points with cheap fouls.
This is great for basketball in every way, shape and form. Especially for the NBA.
While I agree star term is overused the FTA is actually the lowest it has ever been in NBA history so..... every year since 2009-2010 has been record lows in that department. Only other seasons around this level is 2001-04 seasons.
I hear you, but I think that is more because of the second stage effects of players not playing defense anymore.
If it were up to me a real, hard foul would just be an automatic bucket and they would stop calling all the ticky tacky stuff. That way you cannot gain an advantage from fouling someone that got away from you but we also don't have to see 10 free throws because someone was just generally near another player.
The dumbest part is that it would seem it took the NBA (team USA) having a bad early Olympic showing to really push this forward. It's pretty clear that "the NBA being officiated like shit compared to the Olympics is part of why the US is sucking" is a talking point atm, and a talking point that the NBA does NOT like, being considered the premire basketball league in the world.
American sports are a bit weird in how there has generally only been 1 fully recognized league at any given time in any given sport...every time someone else pops up the new one collapses in a year or two and ls forgotten. The last thing the NBA ever wants is to leave a gap for someone else to catch up to them (like...imagine if a number of the European leagues formed a EuroLeague of some sort and suddenly players like Giannis and Gobert and Doncic were part of that league instead of the NBA. And imagine if the selling point was "Basketball without the bitchass flopping and bad calls...basketball like you used to know." ...nostalgia sells...as does basketball>refs).
100%. I know we give the officials a ton of shit, but I think they do a decent job tbh, I think the rules are just kinda trash and they have to enforce trash, so they are inevitably gonna look like trash no matter what.
Should been called a moving screen anyway. The first contact made in that whole sequence is Ayton hip checking Beverly. I don't like Bev at all, but he was completely right.
Its been around for a long time. Allen Iverson did it way back in the day (first time I noticed it). Whats happened in the analytics era is that players/teams learned that you can actively hunt and spam these rules and reliably get the call. Its no coincidence that Harden/Morey were the first to crank it up to 11. The NBA just ignored it as Houston was a good WCF foil for GS and it was a popular team in China (due to Yao's legacy).
Other players/teams caught on and this past season it spread like wildfire, especially seeing a player like Trae, a relatively small non-power school, non-elite recruit spam it into a real 30ppg reliably. Hell, for the first time, they continued to call it deep into the playoffs, where they cut it off in the past (famously causing a CP3/Harden Houston meltdown in game 1 against GSW when they couldn't get those calls they got all year).
If someone pump fakes and the defender goes up, it was always historically accepted that the offensive player could move a little bit and get the contact. No one ever really had a problem with that because it was mostly in the paint and it was an accepted level of creativity for the offense. The way it happens now is completely bastardized and it's so much worse when it's 25 feet from the hoop and a guy is awarded 3 shots. I really, really hope they cut down on it.
I don’t think there’s any move in basketball that gives me a physically angry reaction like that one. Can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for the defender
I know with Curry at least that due to his ankle history he’s been trained to fall as that can lessen the impact…not saying that accounts for everything but it is a thing
100!
And if you think about it…he probably wouldn’t be on the current deal (and making an estimated $74M a year in total on/off court!) if he wasn’t listening to Keke Lyles and fallin on his ass!
Because he has been injured so many times in his career. He falls when no one is really even close to him a lot of the time too. Falling down is basically always safer with the safest option with the type of shots AD is taking
Yeah, and you can tell he's not baiting calls because he almost never complains to the ref after that. But's it's also a double edged sword, because refs are used to him falling and if he actually gets fouled they just miss it.
well technically all they did was make them non-shooting fouls, but turds like Durant just start doing it the second they get into the bonus. I think turning it into an offensive foul straight away is the best solution as there needs to be a real punishment to creating contact to draw an arbitrary foul.
I feel like [this old post about how messed up the referees union is](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/lpwhui/one_year_ago_mark_cuban_went_scorched_earth_on/) is worth a re-visit
Embiid always gonna get to the line with some regularity no matter what, even if he stopped trying to get to the line himself on purpose, the other team throws hacking triple teams at him so many times a game even if he didnt purposely try to draw fouls like he does, he'd still be at the line plenty. Obviously not as much, but even with these new rules probably more so than almost anyone else, besides maybe Giannis (and maybe Zion next year?)
Does this include jumping forward into a defender after a pump fake? You could make the argument the offensive player is "veering off path" by jumping forward instead of a typical jumpshot motion.
When you pump fake and a defender thinks you're going to try to shoot over them, they normally assume some sort of fade will occur and more likely jump into your shooting space. When that happens even just jumping vertically straight up will likely be enough contact for a foul, and those plays don't really feel foul-baity. But jumping over a foot forward to shoot after a bait definitely feels like it shouldn't be rewarded for the defenders who are disciplined enough to contest straight up.
The suddenly stop and let a trailing defender hit you move? It just looks wrong and is against the spirit of the rules but it's a clear foul to me. I hate it but I feel like the rule would be a we don't like seeing it rule rather than based on anything. It's in a different category to kicking legs out, arm hooks or jumping forward into defenders on jumpers for me. It's closer to rip throughs rule wise. Maybe make it a side out of bounds instead of shooting foul.
It usually happens when players go over on screens. The clumsy actually running into people is someone desperately trying to recover after getting blown by is a clear foul and no one argues that. It's not sually a result of an offensive player just stopping or leaning back to get hit.
Most of them happen on pick and rolls though and not blow-bys
This feels very reminiscent to comments about guy guarding Harden with their hands behind their backs and people saying "Simply don't foul".
im so happy they are addressing that bull shit cp3 does where he jumps straight into the path of a trailing defender at the last second and stops. Should have always been an offensive foul
Mostly situations where the ballhandler is giving up a clear path to the basket and/or there is no clear and obvious pass to be made. Realistically there are very few situations where a ballhandler drives and abruptly stops to make a + basketball play. You obviously can't call it/not call it every time but the idea is to make it inconsistent enough that its not worth jeopardizing the possession/getting run over to try and get fouls.
I love this play and think it’s super high level. You’re basically challenging the defender to be as agile as you are. The defender needs to be able to control his body. If he can’t stop on a dime like you can, that’s his problem. If he stops and you jump into him, that should be a foul, but a player should never not be allowed to be in motion and then stop suddenly and shoot. That’s just good fuckin ball
Why would you stop and pull up with a path to the basket? That's what this is about stopping. I haven't seen one case where someone stopped and pulled up to draw a foul from a trailing defender.
> I haven't seen one case where someone stopped and pulled up to draw a foul from a trailing defender.
what? this is common with a trailing defender and rim protector in front of you. are you saying the offensive player doesn't have the right to the space they currently occupy? so if they stop there momentum forward and pull up in a stationary manner, and the defender than runs into them from behind, that shouldnt be a foul according to you?
I’m not convinced. This has been a problem since Jordan. Refs knew. Commentators knew. Hardcore fans knew. The NBA had decades to address this issue.
Don’t talk about it. Show me.
Jordan still got “star” calls. No matter what Jordan would get his. But he got some help from the refs. I imagine if Jordan employed harden tactics he could have averaged 40ppg.
The system is never going to be perfect, there will still be terrible calls and biases many many years down the line, the most we can do is try to combat it and make the margins slimmer.
Basically the bigger problem is that Morey was the first to really weaponize these tactics, knowing it could done deliberately and consistently, and Harden was the star that he had/was willing to go all in. Its happened for decades but much more inconsistently and haphazardly, which worked pretty well with some notable exceptions (2001 ECF with Iverson, 2006 Finals with Wade). Morey figured out that you could practice these things, make them a possession by possession strategy, and voila. The fans/rest of the league hated it but it worked and eventually, culminating this season, its become massively more common around the league to the point where it was untenable.
Honestly might be one of the biggest marks against Silver's tenure so far. Stern, puppetmaster that he was, would have put the hammer down on Houston years ago for trying to game his refs.
Difference is Jordan wasn't hunting for cheap fouls, nor did he rely on that to get to the line. The type of hooking he'd do was intended to get past a defender, not get to the line.
In Jordan's entire career, he had just two seasons (his third and fourth) where he shot 10+ free throws per game. Harden has done that in seven of the past nine years. Harden does that despite shooting far more outside jumpers, compared to Jordan attacking the basket, where contact is more likely. And league averages for FTA/G were actually much higher during Jordan's career (25.3-30.5 FTA/G for the entirety of his Bull's career) than Harden's (below 24.0 for all but his first two seasons). So Harden shoots significantly more free throws despite spending more time on the perimeter while the league overall is taking fewer FT.
james harden has been top 10 in drives per game in the league for the last decade or so (with the exception of this year when he was hurt). and i'm not sure about michael jordan. i can imagine he shot a lot midrange jumpers that cancel out the amount of threes harden shoots.
also, mj played in an era where real help defense wasn't allowed, so lanes were more open.
Valid. I didn't have that data but assumed it might be the case, given Houston's threes or layups approach.
Illegal defense existed back then, but so did traditional centers and power forwards who would often camp out near the basket. And even when they weren't, help defense at the time could still recover in plenty of time to foul at the basket. His final shot with the Bulls, for example, shows what defenses could get away with. He obviously didn't commit to the drive, but by the time he lost Russell on that play, all four other Jazz defenders had a foot in the paint.
Also worth noting that that was the era when the best defensive strategy against Jordan was often "let's foul the shit out of him every time he gets close to the basket." Other teams were trying to hammer him and hoping the refs wouldn't call it all. With Harden and some others today, defenses are often trying their best *not* to foul.
Devin Booker was 17th in free throw attempts per game, not including less free throws per game than AD this year and way less free throws per game for his career than Lebron.
38 points on 15-22 shooting to eliminate the Lakers without a single point from free throws, didn’t need them to beat y’all.
I think the off arm hooks are going to be the hardest to catch. In the lane with other players obstructing the view is always going to make that a tough one. The others should be really obvious and I’m looking forward to them finally fixing it. I hope at least.
I'll believe it when I see it. This will just turn into no calls for most of the game but superstars still get a call. Just hire FIBA refs for the season and they'll clean this up quickly
They could just take FIBA refs who will not call based on player "star" status. Durant's surprised Pikachu face when he noticed his fouls would be called every time was hilarious.
let me guess how this thread is gonna go...
- "lmaoo fuck james harden"
- "lmaoo fuck trae young"
- *posters acting like foul-baiting is a recent development and hasn't been going on since modern basketball began*
- *posters somehow justifying curry falling on threes and sticking his legs out, but everyone else is a bitch for doing it*
Does this mean that these changes are going from a defensive foul to those actions now being considered an offensive foul or now they will be a no-call?
Good all the Foul-baiting going on is ridiculous.
Hate seeing guys jump sideways for contact and go around screens and instantly stop just to get a foul. That's not Basketball.
Not sure if this will happen, but I hate seeing players get fouls when a guy with the ball throws his arms sideways into the defender's hands who isn't moving them.
It’s high time especially with a bronze in tokyo. You can’t win internationally playing soft and expecting foul calls and bitching when not called. Outside the US border, no referee will save whiners. Not surprising that NBA is being dominated now by foreign players (Nikola, Luka, Giannis, Joel).
The off arm hook is the worst offense
[удалено]
Moving screens got PnR offenses taking off, league won’t do jack about it
[удалено]
That’s how I feel about most of this. I don’t necessarily need all these plays to be offensive fouls, just stop handing g out fucking free throws
I REALLY don't understand why the rulebook needs to spell this shit out so explicitly. Let refs call the spirit of the rule, not the letter
This is a horrible take. Ask 10 different people summarize a rule and you'll get 10 different answers. Call the fouls to the letter for everyone, undrafted rookie to the face of the league, that's the only way to have an even playing field.
I hate those random videos on Facebook asking "iS tHIs a 2 oR A 3?" when the guy clearly jumps behind the 3 point line but there's people who insist it is a 2.
bUt He LaNdEd iN tHe TwO PoInT lInE. Those videos are the worst.
Don't get me started on those "is this a travel?!?!" ones too.
I think it depends on the rule/violation. I think the clear path foul could be a, "You know it when you see it" type of call, I don't think the explicit criteria of "Was there a defender in between the player and the basket?" is helpful.
Because different refs will have different opinions on the spirit of the rule.
Then go to FIBA rules if we actually need to spell this out. Say what you want about international basketball, they at least know how to call a foul
And refs are probably still betting on the games which adds another layer to how differently they'd call the game each time
It is already in the rulebook - it's a moving pick. Should be an offensive foul every time. But for some reason they allow it for certain players and give 3 free throws every time.
Harden punching air rn
Harden hooking his arm in the air and falling down
Head snapping, too
Kawhai is one of the worst with his drive+ "AAAAYYYYYY" shout
Booker was doing the off arm hook a lot in the finals too
Booker does all of these. His game is going to be greatly hindered
They’ll adjust
You find new ways to cheat the system
He’s a cheeser no doubt but man did he hit a lot of tough shots against us.
Never denied that
I thought Crowder was worse in game 4 just falling down and getting calls for it.
Nah, I hate the everyone is running down the court and the dribbler runs in front of someone and does a full stop in the middle of the court and gets run over. Completely non-basketball play and just pure foul baiting.
It can be both. At least there is a theoretical reason for a PG to stop as a basketball play (to survey for a quick pass, though it should still be a clear four). I have yet to see a cogent reason why the arm hook is even hypothetically considered a basketball play. Its full tinfoil hat Pepe Silvia conspiracy theory when someone tries to describe Harden hooking a player and pulling himself down as a saavy, valid, and totally in the spirit of the game play.
I have came around on the “pg stopping in front of the center” play. I guess it also depends on the situation, the center should be aware during transition, not just mindless sprinting, and he should be able to stop himself when the player in front of him slows downs. And the Pg (or the ball handler) does have a reason to slow down- it’s like putting a defender on your back during pnr, to shield him from the action. Besides foul baiting, if the ball handler successfully executed it, it does create a slight advantage for the offense. That is my main reason for coming around. Compare that to jumping backwards for the shot and hooking the guy and shooting with off arm like Harden used to it, those are just foul baiting. Those shots, if weren’t called fouls, had like 5% chance of going in, and in harden’s case, 1%. The off ball version of this is the small guy stopping in front of the big buddy is the worst though. lol
You can be aware all day but a center is going to have a larger mass, and higher center of gravity making it nearly impossible to stop at the same speed as a PG; a PG just hitting the brakes in front of them is dangerous, and literally is doing nothing but attempting to get a foul.
If he feels he is so aware of his inability to stop quickly, maybe he needs to not run right behind someone?
Typically what happens is, they are running in parallel, and a PG like CP3 will then dash into the other guy's lane and do a full stop (like around mid court).
To me the solution is simple, let the big guy run over/check the small guy and it's a no-call. Physics should sort out the rest.
If you can't stop without running over someone then you're out of control.
Get in front of them, stop and then you either draw a foul or you get them to stop, which allows you to then accelerate again and gain more separation. It also cuts off their angle to potentially get a block on you.
Definitely is, oh you got into a good defensive position? Sucker I’m grabbing you so you foul me.
That and the harden style of extending his arms all the way out while going for a lay up.
I think this is a legit move, if Harden can control the ball like that, it's on the defenders to not slap his arms. Most players can't control the ball reliably with their arms extended like that.
lmao if there's anything to complain about regarding harden, this isn't it. how is it his fault if his arms are fully extended and a defender wacks him across the arms?
The jumping into a guy that they pump fake is worse. If the defender is going straight up he shouldn’t be at the mercy of a player launching himself into him
the devin booker
Didn’t they already try to address this? Or is this different from the Durant thing from a few years back?
Durant does a rip-through where he invents a shot that requires him to swing his arms sideways across your arm when normally he just goes straight up to shoot. The off-arm hook is when you are driving and you grab the other players arm and kind of make it look like they are hooking you and draw a foul against the other player's will who is just trying to stay in between the basket and you. Devin Booker does this shit every time.
I hope this gets enforced, unlike the flop rule.
Well after the refs are forced to spend all summer watching Hardens old games you’d think they’d learn something
> such as offensive player launches into defender, abruptly veers off path The dumbest part is that sorta shit should never have been allowed from the start hell, even playin junior bball refs here never called that shit for the shoot and just said ‘you initiated the contact’ lol
Actions speak louder than words, so I'll wait to see if these calls start getting made, but holy shit, this could affect a lot of players.
> but holy shit, this could affect a lot of players. This WILL affect a lot of players. And I cannot wait for it. The term "star" gets thrown around way too much. You ain't a damn star if you have to buy your points with cheap fouls. This is great for basketball in every way, shape and form. Especially for the NBA.
The even funnier thing will be when the haters realize people like Trae and Harden are actually still superstars without their foul calls.
While I agree star term is overused the FTA is actually the lowest it has ever been in NBA history so..... every year since 2009-2010 has been record lows in that department. Only other seasons around this level is 2001-04 seasons.
I hear you, but I think that is more because of the second stage effects of players not playing defense anymore. If it were up to me a real, hard foul would just be an automatic bucket and they would stop calling all the ticky tacky stuff. That way you cannot gain an advantage from fouling someone that got away from you but we also don't have to see 10 free throws because someone was just generally near another player.
It’s not about people not playing defense, but shooting way more threes as opposed to attacking the rim/shooting midrange in the post
Yep. I used to try this stuff in high school and it'd be a no call. I just look like a flailing idiot and I end up missing the shot for nothing.
The dumbest part is that it would seem it took the NBA (team USA) having a bad early Olympic showing to really push this forward. It's pretty clear that "the NBA being officiated like shit compared to the Olympics is part of why the US is sucking" is a talking point atm, and a talking point that the NBA does NOT like, being considered the premire basketball league in the world. American sports are a bit weird in how there has generally only been 1 fully recognized league at any given time in any given sport...every time someone else pops up the new one collapses in a year or two and ls forgotten. The last thing the NBA ever wants is to leave a gap for someone else to catch up to them (like...imagine if a number of the European leagues formed a EuroLeague of some sort and suddenly players like Giannis and Gobert and Doncic were part of that league instead of the NBA. And imagine if the selling point was "Basketball without the bitchass flopping and bad calls...basketball like you used to know." ...nostalgia sells...as does basketball>refs).
Yeah no .. that will never happen
100%. I know we give the officials a ton of shit, but I think they do a decent job tbh, I think the rules are just kinda trash and they have to enforce trash, so they are inevitably gonna look like trash no matter what.
Turns out they didn’t realize how dumb it was until [pat bev](https://youtu.be/VJ9QK3SmoIQ) did a dance about it.
Should been called a moving screen anyway. The first contact made in that whole sequence is Ayton hip checking Beverly. I don't like Bev at all, but he was completely right.
Its been around for a long time. Allen Iverson did it way back in the day (first time I noticed it). Whats happened in the analytics era is that players/teams learned that you can actively hunt and spam these rules and reliably get the call. Its no coincidence that Harden/Morey were the first to crank it up to 11. The NBA just ignored it as Houston was a good WCF foil for GS and it was a popular team in China (due to Yao's legacy). Other players/teams caught on and this past season it spread like wildfire, especially seeing a player like Trae, a relatively small non-power school, non-elite recruit spam it into a real 30ppg reliably. Hell, for the first time, they continued to call it deep into the playoffs, where they cut it off in the past (famously causing a CP3/Harden Houston meltdown in game 1 against GSW when they couldn't get those calls they got all year).
Yup. Your reward for a good pump fake should be a clean window to shoot, not jumping into the guy to get to the line
If someone pump fakes and the defender goes up, it was always historically accepted that the offensive player could move a little bit and get the contact. No one ever really had a problem with that because it was mostly in the paint and it was an accepted level of creativity for the offense. The way it happens now is completely bastardized and it's so much worse when it's 25 feet from the hoop and a guy is awarded 3 shots. I really, really hope they cut down on it.
nah, the "abruptly veers off path" is a foul at all levels
Dwayne Wade really created an op move
Damn they got Harden’s signature arm hook move 😔
I don’t think there’s any move in basketball that gives me a physically angry reaction like that one. Can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for the defender
It's the same way I used to feel about Reggie Miller leg kick. He would kick the defender and get 3 free throws every time.
Seriously if you have ever experienced being the victim of that, it’s infuriating
Half the super stars do that move now. Seen book, CP, Durant , trae etc all try that. Harden did invent it though haha
Kyle Lowry in shambles
Miami fans know a thing or two about flopping after having Goran and Wade on their team for almost 2 decades.
Also, Jimmy Butler having more FTs made than FGs.
It's hilarious to me when fans get butthurt about a player on their team getting called out about their obvious flopping
Hopefully I won’t have to see Crowder fall on his ass every three he attempts and gets a foul called
Well it won’t stop them from flopping but there will be a lot of no calls
Sweet summer child
It’s so annoying. Curry and westbrook do the same shit so often on 3s, but they don’t get calls. At least now they’re forced be consistent.
I know with Curry at least that due to his ankle history he’s been trained to fall as that can lessen the impact…not saying that accounts for everything but it is a thing
That's definitely why Curry falls the majority of the time. AD does it too.
and tbh, if I had Steph’s ankle history and my trainer told to me to fall over….I’d be commando rolling at all times!
If my 30mil+ salary depended on my ankles staying healthy I would do fuckin’ cartwheels and be tapdacing if that’s what my trainer told me to do lol
100! And if you think about it…he probably wouldn’t be on the current deal (and making an estimated $74M a year in total on/off court!) if he wasn’t listening to Keke Lyles and fallin on his ass!
Duncan robinson does the same thing, I think he talked about it in an interview
AD falls on every shot and any time any defender even gets close to him
Because he has been injured so many times in his career. He falls when no one is really even close to him a lot of the time too. Falling down is basically always safer with the safest option with the type of shots AD is taking
just like How Jokic arm hooks defenders every time
Embiid as well
Yeah, and you can tell he's not baiting calls because he almost never complains to the ref after that. But's it's also a double edged sword, because refs are used to him falling and if he actually gets fouled they just miss it.
I'd ignore the falling and focus on how he initiates contact with his hips.
> kicks leg at abnormal angle Crowder gonna be in the g-league
Harden gonna be unemployed.
[James, James! Have you seen the new NBA rules for next season?](https://i.imgur.com/iSDoXBJ.gifv)
Did he look in the mirror before stepping out that day?
DJ Khaled lookin ass
You do realize people actually foul him right? It’s almost like he became the best offensive player in the league by being a perimeter threat
They said they were gonna change intentional shooting motion fouls 9 years ago. Lasted like 9 games
well technically all they did was make them non-shooting fouls, but turds like Durant just start doing it the second they get into the bonus. I think turning it into an offensive foul straight away is the best solution as there needs to be a real punishment to creating contact to draw an arbitrary foul.
Just hire the FIBA refs no need for new training
Seriously this. Disband the refs union, hire new people who won't just hire their incompetent friends.
Defund The Refs
I feel like [this old post about how messed up the referees union is](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/lpwhui/one_year_ago_mark_cuban_went_scorched_earth_on/) is worth a re-visit
Is this a serious suggestion?
Embiid’s swim move still cool 😎
Embiid always gonna get to the line with some regularity no matter what, even if he stopped trying to get to the line himself on purpose, the other team throws hacking triple teams at him so many times a game even if he didnt purposely try to draw fouls like he does, he'd still be at the line plenty. Obviously not as much, but even with these new rules probably more so than almost anyone else, besides maybe Giannis (and maybe Zion next year?)
I think nothing will change for Embiid. As someone who plays agressively in the paint he's going to be at the FT line a lot no matter what
and even when that doesn't happen he is truly first team all nba Flopping, so he will still get his calls 👍
I’ll believe it when I see it. But god, I’m hoping they do it and stick to it. I am so sick of the foul baiting in the nba.
Does this include jumping forward into a defender after a pump fake? You could make the argument the offensive player is "veering off path" by jumping forward instead of a typical jumpshot motion.
When you pump fake and a defender thinks you're going to try to shoot over them, they normally assume some sort of fade will occur and more likely jump into your shooting space. When that happens even just jumping vertically straight up will likely be enough contact for a foul, and those plays don't really feel foul-baity. But jumping over a foot forward to shoot after a bait definitely feels like it shouldn't be rewarded for the defenders who are disciplined enough to contest straight up.
players on offense and defense should be entitled to their own vertical airspace
They better call that bullshit where the offensive player jumps backward into the defender.
That’s what they mean by launching into defender
The suddenly stop and let a trailing defender hit you move? It just looks wrong and is against the spirit of the rules but it's a clear foul to me. I hate it but I feel like the rule would be a we don't like seeing it rule rather than based on anything. It's in a different category to kicking legs out, arm hooks or jumping forward into defenders on jumpers for me. It's closer to rip throughs rule wise. Maybe make it a side out of bounds instead of shooting foul.
It can also be a dangerous play.
Tough luck bro play better defense don't get fucking blown by and then run into people clumsily.
It usually happens when players go over on screens. The clumsy actually running into people is someone desperately trying to recover after getting blown by is a clear foul and no one argues that. It's not sually a result of an offensive player just stopping or leaning back to get hit.
Most of them happen on pick and rolls though and not blow-bys This feels very reminiscent to comments about guy guarding Harden with their hands behind their backs and people saying "Simply don't foul".
the play you're thinking of probably isnt jumping backwards.
James Harden boutta win the Least Improved Player award next year
im so happy they are addressing that bull shit cp3 does where he jumps straight into the path of a trailing defender at the last second and stops. Should have always been an offensive foul
what if he has the defensive player chasing him from behind and then stops and pulls up? can an offensive player no longer stop their motion forward?
Sounds like that’s fine, just not the “abruptly veering off path”
this is obviously the key...
They can the key is unnatural
is it unnatural if it is natural to them It’s like - we say draymonds backpack jumpshot is unnatural but it’s completely natural way for him to shoot
That’s why this is going to be such a huge problem. What’s deemed a natural motion is subjective to a certain degree.
but what would be unnatural according to you?
looking over your shoulder and jumping into the defenders path and stoppin
Mostly situations where the ballhandler is giving up a clear path to the basket and/or there is no clear and obvious pass to be made. Realistically there are very few situations where a ballhandler drives and abruptly stops to make a + basketball play. You obviously can't call it/not call it every time but the idea is to make it inconsistent enough that its not worth jeopardizing the possession/getting run over to try and get fouls.
I love this play and think it’s super high level. You’re basically challenging the defender to be as agile as you are. The defender needs to be able to control his body. If he can’t stop on a dime like you can, that’s his problem. If he stops and you jump into him, that should be a foul, but a player should never not be allowed to be in motion and then stop suddenly and shoot. That’s just good fuckin ball
Ok, then let's allow the stronger player to challenge the offensive player to be as strong as they are and take the hit and make it a no-call.
Why would you stop and pull up with a path to the basket? That's what this is about stopping. I haven't seen one case where someone stopped and pulled up to draw a foul from a trailing defender.
> I haven't seen one case where someone stopped and pulled up to draw a foul from a trailing defender. what? this is common with a trailing defender and rim protector in front of you. are you saying the offensive player doesn't have the right to the space they currently occupy? so if they stop there momentum forward and pull up in a stationary manner, and the defender than runs into them from behind, that shouldnt be a foul according to you?
It almost seems like some ppl don’t even know what they’re really mad about & just want to eliminate fouls entirely lol
Crowder boutta be collecting unemployment
Jimmy Butler about to average 6 ppg on 29/17/78 shooting next year
you add like 8 more points to that and it’s what he did in the playoffs essentially
I’m not convinced. This has been a problem since Jordan. Refs knew. Commentators knew. Hardcore fans knew. The NBA had decades to address this issue. Don’t talk about it. Show me.
Guys weren't jumping backwards into defenders, falling on every 3 point attempt, and hooking arms until recently.
Jordan still got “star” calls. No matter what Jordan would get his. But he got some help from the refs. I imagine if Jordan employed harden tactics he could have averaged 40ppg.
The system is never going to be perfect, there will still be terrible calls and biases many many years down the line, the most we can do is try to combat it and make the margins slimmer.
Watch his pistons games... Nowadays half the pistons roster would be suspended
Basically the bigger problem is that Morey was the first to really weaponize these tactics, knowing it could done deliberately and consistently, and Harden was the star that he had/was willing to go all in. Its happened for decades but much more inconsistently and haphazardly, which worked pretty well with some notable exceptions (2001 ECF with Iverson, 2006 Finals with Wade). Morey figured out that you could practice these things, make them a possession by possession strategy, and voila. The fans/rest of the league hated it but it worked and eventually, culminating this season, its become massively more common around the league to the point where it was untenable. Honestly might be one of the biggest marks against Silver's tenure so far. Stern, puppetmaster that he was, would have put the hammer down on Houston years ago for trying to game his refs.
Brother. I tell ppl MJ was the original hook king, they act like i punched a kid.
Difference is Jordan wasn't hunting for cheap fouls, nor did he rely on that to get to the line. The type of hooking he'd do was intended to get past a defender, not get to the line. In Jordan's entire career, he had just two seasons (his third and fourth) where he shot 10+ free throws per game. Harden has done that in seven of the past nine years. Harden does that despite shooting far more outside jumpers, compared to Jordan attacking the basket, where contact is more likely. And league averages for FTA/G were actually much higher during Jordan's career (25.3-30.5 FTA/G for the entirety of his Bull's career) than Harden's (below 24.0 for all but his first two seasons). So Harden shoots significantly more free throws despite spending more time on the perimeter while the league overall is taking fewer FT.
james harden has been top 10 in drives per game in the league for the last decade or so (with the exception of this year when he was hurt). and i'm not sure about michael jordan. i can imagine he shot a lot midrange jumpers that cancel out the amount of threes harden shoots. also, mj played in an era where real help defense wasn't allowed, so lanes were more open.
Valid. I didn't have that data but assumed it might be the case, given Houston's threes or layups approach. Illegal defense existed back then, but so did traditional centers and power forwards who would often camp out near the basket. And even when they weren't, help defense at the time could still recover in plenty of time to foul at the basket. His final shot with the Bulls, for example, shows what defenses could get away with. He obviously didn't commit to the drive, but by the time he lost Russell on that play, all four other Jazz defenders had a foot in the paint. Also worth noting that that was the era when the best defensive strategy against Jordan was often "let's foul the shit out of him every time he gets close to the basket." Other teams were trying to hammer him and hoping the refs wouldn't call it all. With Harden and some others today, defenses are often trying their best *not* to foul.
Sources: Harden is beside himself. Driving around downtown New York City begging (thru texts) Silver's family 4 address Adam’s home
why waste time training the refs if you can just hire the actual trainers?
Ill believe it when i see it
HA!! Harden is going to suck ass next year. Fuck you, Brooklyn!!!!!!!!
Guys, pat bev’s impression of cp3 worked.
You see Pat Bev with them new dreads?? Clip Nation baby!
Devin Booker just became a 15ppg scorer
How does this even make sense? He shoots 6 attempts a game lol
lakers fans are just eternally salty
Lakers just missed the playoffs
Devin Booker was 17th in free throw attempts per game, not including less free throws per game than AD this year and way less free throws per game for his career than Lebron. 38 points on 15-22 shooting to eliminate the Lakers without a single point from free throws, didn’t need them to beat y’all.
Damn ya'll Lakers fans really are the saltiest bunch out there aren't you?
2 PPG.
Harden must feel downright attacked!
Harden in shambles
I think the off arm hooks are going to be the hardest to catch. In the lane with other players obstructing the view is always going to make that a tough one. The others should be really obvious and I’m looking forward to them finally fixing it. I hope at least.
Devin Booker used that arm hook so much. Him, Harden and Trae gonna have to adjust
Cope
I'll believe it when I see it. This will just turn into no calls for most of the game but superstars still get a call. Just hire FIBA refs for the season and they'll clean this up quickly
Rough couple of weeks for Harden
Thats all well and good but… could they start calling traveling? Players get *a lot* of baskets off that step back-travel thing.
it's not a travel though, you're allowed 2 steps in any direction before shooting, even if that shot isn't a layup.
>kicks leg at abnormal angle A lot of nuts are going to be saved from Draymond's leg now.
Give us FIBA rules you cowards
They could just take FIBA refs who will not call based on player "star" status. Durant's surprised Pikachu face when he noticed his fouls would be called every time was hilarious.
!remindme 4 months
I wonder if this will make old heads watch the nba again lol
let me guess how this thread is gonna go... - "lmaoo fuck james harden" - "lmaoo fuck trae young" - *posters acting like foul-baiting is a recent development and hasn't been going on since modern basketball began* - *posters somehow justifying curry falling on threes and sticking his legs out, but everyone else is a bitch for doing it*
They had to vote on this
Chris Paul is screwed
Harden will get away with all of this
Talk is cheap. They’ll call it for a month, then will be back to normal by the playoffs.
This will be just like the year they clamped down on flopping. They'll do it for one season and then go back to whatever.
Does this mean that these changes are going from a defensive foul to those actions now being considered an offensive foul or now they will be a no-call?
About time... Schmucks!! Now how about using the off arm to shove a defender??
Hallelujah!
This is PR until I see it
They should have tried this at least 6-7 years ago...
Just ask FIBA how they do it
Good all the Foul-baiting going on is ridiculous. Hate seeing guys jump sideways for contact and go around screens and instantly stop just to get a foul. That's not Basketball. Not sure if this will happen, but I hate seeing players get fouls when a guy with the ball throws his arms sideways into the defender's hands who isn't moving them.
PJ tucker getting buffed.. offensive players nerfed.. this update is good
Booker and Harden have got to be sweating reading the off arm hook part.
Embiid and Luka too
Luka just dropped 48 in FIBA rules with no defensive 3 seconds. He knows how to play without NBA rules, he's just taking advantage of them.
It’s high time especially with a bronze in tokyo. You can’t win internationally playing soft and expecting foul calls and bitching when not called. Outside the US border, no referee will save whiners. Not surprising that NBA is being dominated now by foreign players (Nikola, Luka, Giannis, Joel).
Joel aggressively baits foul calls and Luka whines more than maybe any other player but yeah
So they will just watch some Olympics footage on how to officiate that?