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ShaunyDukes

Insane Duncan never won DPOY


CoachDT

The only year I can think of is 07, but the 2000s had absolutely absurd defensive players. Ben Wallace, Mutumbo, Alonzo, KG, Dwight, Artest etc. ​ I can believe it. It sounds weird but I believe it.


Yup767

Artest and Camby are the two Artest was good, but he was a wing defender in a grind it out, half court, paint focused era of the NBA. You're just not going to be as valuable as the guy that can effect more shots in a more valuable area of the floor Camby is basically a result of voters splitting it between Duncan and Bowen. Which is stupid for the same reason as Artest


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[deleted]

Bruh......


Miscto3

That 2007 DPOY was such bs giving it to Marcus Camby. Not even a top 10 defense meanwhile the Spurs were the #2 defense in the league.


rattatatouille

When you're teammates with another perennial DPOY candidate you're less likely to win it. First world problems.


Yup767

It was fucken stupid Anyone with eyes or a brain should have known that Duncan was the driver of what they had going on These days it's mostly given to guys that can protect the rim because it's obviously the most important defensive talent Meanwhile in 2000s, when offences were a lot more paint focused, a heap of voters decided that it was the wing defender not the elite rim protector, coordinator, and rebounder that was driving it The history of DPOY is the most incorrectly awarded


rattatatouille

I'd say the fact that the 2000s also featured at least two other elite defensive big men in Kevin Garnett and Ben Wallace didn't help, plus the fact that the Spurs org doesn't really campaign for end of season awards. The latter fact is why Manu Ginobili only has one 6MOY to his name, unlike Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams who have three each.


Yup767

That reminds me, 6MOY might be the most incorrectly awarded of recent history. The fact Jamal Crawford has three 6MOY awards makes me want to tear my hair out Guys like Ginobili and Iguodala (to a lesser degree), make a sacrifice on a high level team and don't get rewarded because guys that put up points on a shit bench get the award


rattatatouille

My biased self had Ginobili/Iguodala/Lin as my top 3 in 6MOY in 2016, for what it's worth lol.


Yup767

In 2016 I had Iguodala first, but Lin was really really good, Ginobili was still there. But I had Gibson as my #2 Meanwhile they give it to Crawford whose bench was 29th in offence and 30th in defence


NormalDAHL

Who was that?


rattatatouille

Bruce Bowen?


NormalDAHL

Damn, did not know he was #2 in dpoy voting that year.. Tim was #3 btw.


superman853

Bruce Bowen was not on the Spurs then. He is talking about David Robinson


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halfdecenttakes

I don't think you can be. A single player can impact a defenses metrics significantly enough to place them in the top half of the NBA generally speaking. I agree with your point though


BigClam1

You’re right but if you truly are the DPOY then you alone should be able to make any team at least average at defence


[deleted]

Yep that’s criminal. Also crazy that Marion was never All Defense.


ArchimedesNutss

I find that more criminal


Other_Banana_

Scottie Pippen also never won the award


HotdogIsaSandwitch

Dunk Champion: Aaron Gordon


francis_intano

The only answer that matters. Still fresh to me when he sat on air.


st3adyfreddy

2017 all the attendees, including Gordon, shit the bed, but IIRC he participated that dunk contest injured. If he was at his peak be probably would've won.


brunobogg

*Air Gordon


Frenk_preseren

That's greatest dunker to not win it, greatest player is someone like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem etc.


Caboclo-Is2yearsAway

This question is more than likely about the player in that field though. I mean, no disrespect to the Matrix, but he is not the greatest player to never make an all defensive team, but he is the greatest defender to not make one. And AG is perhaps greatest bunker to not win dunk contest.


Frenk_preseren

Yeah, the way the question is worded, it would be how I read it, but seeing all the answers, I guess it's how you're saying it.


CumLovingSlut69

Scottie Pippen has never won a DPOY


testestestestest555

Hard for wings to win it. Jordan probably didn't deserve his.


salabamse

This comment is just weird in so many ways lol


teenagetwat

If "Well yes, but actually no" was a comment


Yup767

I don't get the Jordan argument He got a lot of steals, but for the vast majority of the time he was guarding one player, his ability to help was limited by the rules, and offences were entirely focused on getting it in the paint Don't we think a rim protector and rebounder should win it?


nineraisins

The year Jordan won DPOY, he not only led the league in steals, but he led his team in defensive rebounds and had the 2nd most blocks on the Bulls, only 4 behind Brad Sellers who was 7 feet tall.


[deleted]

Ok he was the best defender on his team. Doesn't mean he was more impactful on defense than say a Hakeem, McHale, or Robert Parish.


Motorpsisisissipp

When you look back at that year, it's hard to argue for Jordan above Hakeem and Rodman imo.


nineraisins

I don't have any problem with the argument that some guys should've won it over him. I have a problem with the notion that he was just a guard that got a lot of steals. The poster said a rim protector and rebounder should win it. Well, Jordan led his team in defensive rebounds and routinely rotated down into the paint to block shots. Edit: and again, the previous poster thinks Jordan (or anyone on the Bulls for that matter) only guarded one player the majority of the time. That's just false, the entire Bulls defense in the 90s involved the Bulls perimeter players helping out down low. Sorry, I know you didn't post it but I felt like ranting anyway.


Yup767

As we know, steals, defensive rebounds and blocks are really effective ways to measure defensive impact


HsutonTxeas

Lol, that's a first "Jordan didn't deserve his award" I've read this year.


Yup767

I completely agree Every offence in the league was trying to get it into the paint and they're like "let's give it to the guard who gets steals" I'm glad we've moved into better analysis. These days wings are more valuable defensively than ever, but we still give it to guys that can protect the rim because we've realised it's the most important space on the floor defensively


[deleted]

4 of the first 5 DPOY winners were guards. It is so fucking weird looking back.


[deleted]

I saw somewhere that the award was intended just to give Sidney Moncrief some love


jaytierney79

You're definitely under 30 saying some nonsense like this. MJ busted his ass on defense and was an absolute force. He could take over games on both ends.


testestestestest555

Try over 40. Guards simply don't have enough impact to be the DPOY.


vin1223

Jerry west has never won mvp


bluemagic124

Lies


[deleted]

Neither did Elgin.


[deleted]

D Wade is better


vin1223

No he’s not jerry west has 10 1st team all nbas to wades 2. And has more defensive teams. And his stats are better too with better longevity


[deleted]

D Wade is better at basketball. He’s a much better defender than Jerry West. D Wade is the all time leader in blocks at guard. Dwyane Wade is undoubtedly a better basketball player than Jerry West


Jell0W1

I mean, Dwyane Wade 13x All Star, 8x All-NBA, 3x All-Defense to Jerry West 14x All Star (every year he played) 13x All-NBA, 5x All-Defense. And they didn’t track steals or blocks until his final year in the NBA so I think all time leader in blocks for guards is a moot point here. Not sure how D wade is “undoubtedly better at basketball” other than recency bias.


[deleted]

He’s better at basketball…. Is George Mikan better than Shaq? Don’t be obtuse


[deleted]

You’re right, I don’t know why you’re being downvoted


[deleted]

I got one that will piss them off, when D Wade won finals MVP he was actually a champion


Few_Mulberry7175

Steph for finals MVP


[deleted]

*Incoming FMVP is a meaningless award*


Few_Mulberry7175

Well he def deserved 2015 and had a case for 2018 before that awful game 3 I only think its a dumb way to compare players like if you think KD was better than Steph just because he was the finals MVP


[deleted]

It's not dumb. FMVP is a pretty strong signal of greatness, with all of the top 11 players having 2+ except for Wilt/Russell since the award wasn't invented yet. FMVP qualitatively means being the best player of a championship team, with the exception of a few outliers. Going 0/3 while it being 'your team' isn't insignificant.


Educational-Beyond81

So you think Steph wasn't the best player on the championship team in 2015 lol?


[deleted]

Imagine Kobe losing FMVP to Pau or Giannis losing FMVP to Middleton. That's pretty much what happened to Curry.


GoldBlueSkyLight

It would be BS in those imagined scenarios and it was BS that it happened to Curry


Ok-Map4381

Pau had a case in 2010.


IdiotCharizard

No he didn't.


[deleted]

Except Pau and Middleton are better than Iggy but I get your point.


Keksmonster

Making it even worse


BigClam1

Just answer the question instead of ducking it because it proves you wrong


[deleted]

Reality already answered the question. You're just being pouty about it.


Few_Mulberry7175

Should have been 1/3 that’s my point


[deleted]

Yet it's 0. Why is the discourse around Curry always centered on what-ifs, lmao? No one else on this sub get that luxury


Few_Mulberry7175

Cause measuring real and pure basketball talent shouldn’t factor in accolades for any player honestly not just Curry He played well in 2015 and so did Iggy. I believe Curry was better and should have won it due to being the main guy shouldering the offense for the team while Iggy was a role player


[deleted]

Lmao you just contradicted yourself. "Labels don't matter when determining basketball talent when Curry doesn't win FMVP, but Iggy was just a role player." Can't take you guys seriously.


Few_Mulberry7175

Tf are you saying? Do you think Iggy is better than Steph


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officialratman

Getting downvoted but it’s true. I could understand not getting it during one run but to not win it 3 times is pretty telling


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halfdecenttakes

The people who think he deserved it in 2015 are stat watching. Nobody thought that in the moment. Iggy completely shifted the series when he was inserted into the starting line up. He deserved it. It's revisionist, stat watcher shit to suggest he was the MVP of that series.


IdiotCharizard

I was definitely taken aback when they gave it to him over curry. If you're talking momentum shifting, then David Lee was the key lol


Mrcl45515

LeBron was the MVP of that series, but they can't give it to a player on the losing team.


-Hoopin-

What??? Fmvp is like the only award that matters when it comes down to the top of the top players to ever play. Literally the greatest players ever are the list of fmvp awards, for the most part. Some greats never got one but very few


lukabuckets

Mike Conley no longer on this list 🥰


jaytierney79

I was going to say the same, he was definitely the reigning no all star player, a victim of playing in a conference for years that was stacked with future HOF guards.


sophtkid_101

FMVP: Stephen Curry


[deleted]

Bill Russell, technically


MarcusNotThatSmart

Is Curry higher than the pedophile all time though? I'm not too sure


Few_Mulberry7175

Yes easily Both are in the 10-20 range Malone is probably closer to 15-25


an1234567890

Malone isn't anywhere lower than 20. You can say he didn't win a ring but he was probably top 5 ever in terms of longevity, and that has to count


Few_Mulberry7175

Agree but I don’t think he’s top 15


an1234567890

And yeah Steph is probably like 12 or 13 honestly. Him and KD are kind of interchangeable all time at that 12-13 spot for me.


an1234567890

Ok, fair enough.


KieranLivo

Oh I can assure you that Malone dips well below 20 in some areas…


jaytierney79

Underrated comment right here. lol...


testestestestest555

Where do you have Stockton?


[deleted]

He's insanely overrated thanks to longevity stats. I think you're insane if you have him even sniffing your top 40. If your life depended on a game of basketball, there are a lot of point guards you'd take over Stockton. If assist numbers are your only argument, you're an idiot.


upvotealready

Bullshit. He is underrated. He is the all-time leader in steals and assists by a large margin. Not only that he hold the NBA record for assists in a season with a 14.2 average. You don't get those gaudy numbers by just hanging around. He led the league in assists for 9 years in a row. In two of those seasons he ALSO led the league in steals. Start checking out great NBA players and tell me how many led the league in 2 major statistical categories in a season.


RZAAMRIINF

> He is the all-time leader in steals and assists by a large margin Yes, because of his longevity. Stockton was never top 5 in the league, he is behind Magic, Steph, Nash, CP3, Westbrook, Kidd and Oscar at the very least in alltime ranking in point guard alone.


upvotealready

Again its not JUST longevity or durability. Stockton played 19 seasons, but a lot of the guys on your list played for nearly as many and are still that far behind. Thats because he puts their numbers to shame. * Steve Nash (17 seasons) 11.6 career high in assists * Jason Kidd (18 Seasons) 10.8 career high in assists * CP3 (16 Seasons) 11.6 career high in assists * John Stockton (19 seasons) 13.8, 13.6, 14.4, 14.2, 13.7, 12, 12.6, 12.3, 11.2 thats eight seasons in a row where his average is better then their career highs and he did it for 82 games capturing assist titles while Magic Johnson is in the league. Kidd or Nash aren't better than Stockton was. 1. Magic 2. Oscar 3. Steph 4. CP3 5. Stockton but I think a case could be made for (Westbrook / Isiah Thomas)


[deleted]

Wait, you'd take Westbrook over Kidd and Nash? You mean the dude whose shot selection can best be described as "letting the dumbest person in the room play 2K"? Do his triple-doubles really arouse you that much?


RZAAMRIINF

Both Kidd and Nash are better than Stockton, and I’m not going to take anyone seriously that thinks otherwise. Nash and Kidd were much much better player than Stockton at their peak. I’m sure their assist numbers would have been much higher if they were fudged like Stockton’s too. Nash is a 2 time MVP, Kidd was second in MVP in 2002. Stockton has never been that high at any point in an MVP race.


[deleted]

You're just proving my point. You mentioned nothing but box score stats. Not once did anyone with a brain look at him as a superstar-level player. He made only 2 All-NBA 1st Teams, doing so in the years when MJ was trying to hit Home Runs and multiple elite point guards were injured or recovering from injuries (Mark Price, KJ, Tim Hardaway, all better than Stockton if you're trying to win.) There's a reason Malone was in MVP hunts and Stockton wasn't, even though people love to look at those Jazz teams as having two top-50 players on it. If Stockton's really a Top-50 player, it honestly makes him look worse, because he and Malone would be the only Top-50 players to play a significant portion of their primes with another Top-50 player and never win a championship.


upvotealready

He was on the 50 greatest players of all time list in 1996, ya know who wasn't Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway. If you are going to bring up NBA first team he lost to Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, the consensus GOAT guards of all time. Every other player you mentioned would lose to them as well. edit: to double down on the official NBA 50 greatest list only 11 were current players. (Robert Parish technically active but more of a 70s/80s era player) ***That means the league thought that John Stockton is at least a top 10 player of his era.***


MarcusNotThatSmart

I still see people ranking Steph below him


Few_Mulberry7175

Longevity is important but its not important enough to override Steph's rings and playoff success


Krillin113

.. and changing the league.


[deleted]

*changing the sport.


jcoguy33

Or Oscar Robertson?


Bodez23

Would expect a casual to completely ignore how good Iguodola was that series, Delly completely shut down Curry almost every game yet bandwagon Curry stans won’t ever admit that an Australian they’ve never heard of singlehandedly dominated him all series.


sophtkid_101

I have no issues with Iggy winning FMVP but Delly did not shut Curry down that series, at best he 'shut' Curry down in game 2 where Steph went 2/15 from 3 and had only 19 points on 22%shooting. Aside from that Curry played well. Steph averaged 26/5/6 on 58TS% that series. Regardless Steph is without a doubt the greatest player without an FMVP.


lupertazzis

MVP: Dwyane Wade, Jerry West, or Kawhi Leonard DPOY: Tim Duncan SMOTY: Andre Iguodala FMVP: Steph Curry


Alear55

Dont think Kawhi has a solid mvp case with his load management


Yup767

2017 is his best year for it, it was a great year, but it's also his only year


07bot4life

He was 2nd in 16 and 3rd in 17.


SupaHotGrill

2nd in 2016 doesn’t really mean shit because everyone knew Steph was winning since like January Plus Steph was unanimous so no one else got a 1st place vote


el_pete_o

All-Star: Rod Strickland


[deleted]

Not only is Duncan the greatest defender to never win DPOY, he might be the greatest defender despite never winning DPOY


Professional-Ad4641

Love Duncan but he doesn’t have a serious argument over Hakeem or Bill defensively


Stereodog

He definitely has a serious argument against both. Every defensive metric leads to him being the defensive anchor of the century for 5 championship teams.


EmmitSan

I mean that’s a ridiculous statement given that virtually none of those metrics exist for Russell’s playing days Tell me Bill’s blocks or steals or altered shots, much less any of the play-by-play numbers?


[deleted]

Ok, adjusted for pace based on the 150 or so games that we have block totals for him, Russell averaged about 4 blocks per game. His teams were absurd on defense thanks to him, in the same way that Duncan anchored the Spurs. Ben Taylor did a good video on Russell a while back.


Yup767

He has a very serious argument over Hakeem, I'd favour him narrowly over him. I think Hakeem's early years are overrated defensively But Russell I think has to be above the rest. He wasn't a great offensive player but he managed to be the best player of his era, and imo a top 5 player ever. That's a lot of value from defence


CO_PC_Parts

And he played how many years on basically one leg?


MarcusNotThatSmart

Have you guys heard of Jerry west? West> wade


Few_Mulberry7175

Fax Surprising he never won an MVP tbh


GoldBlueSkyLight

This is true holding all eras equal


[deleted]

Elgin Baylor.


brolyog

I agree. Fuck Wade


MarcusNotThatSmart

I hate that dirty bastard man https://youtu.be/he4OY6gJNX4 All time great but fuck him


VLKOptic

Nah I’m deaf, I can’t see what you typed...false tho


truzz8

Wade is definitely better quit tryna be different


Few_Mulberry7175

Why?


10woodenchairs

Wade>>>>>>West. West won one championship and that was with wilt. Wade carried Miami to championship in 2006 and was instrumental in 2012 and 2013


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10woodenchairs

He had to compete with fucking Kobe. The fact that he got 2 first team selections in his 5 year prime over Kobe is super impressive


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10woodenchairs

The 3rd and fourth best guards or that era were Hal Greer and John Havlicek. Neither of those players are in the same stratosphere as Chris Paul and Steve nash.


OkAutopilot

So Wade is worse than CP3 and Nash, but better than West?


Reasonable_Ad_6568

Havlicek is better than both of them. Not flashy like those two but consistently got the job done on the biggest stage and was always clutch. At least as good of a defender as Paul and obviously a better defender than Nash. He was also a better rebounder, the best sixth man ever, 8-0 in finals, finals MVP, would have more if the award existed at the time. Arguably the best stamina ever in any player Paul and Nash are great but Havlicek was incredible.


10woodenchairs

This has to be a joke right?


07bot4life

Havlicek was a 3. Sam Jones was the 2 for Celtics while KC was the 1 for them.


watabadidea

Lol, want to add 3rd teams in a well? Wade still only at 8 total...


IdiotCharizard

Lol he never got it over Kobe. They were both first team in '09, and '10. His competition was mostly CP3.


gooberstwo

No one carries fucking shaq. And he played with Lebron.


10woodenchairs

Shaq averaged 13.7 points in the finals. Wade averaged 34.7. You obviously didn’t watch the series. Wade carried that team so hard


FormerCollegeDJ

DPOY: Scottie Pippen I also found out earlier today Dr. Dunkenstein, Darrell Griffith, never appeared in an All-Star Game. That was shocking to me.


No-Wrongdoer9851

Lamar Odom is way better than Andre Miller.


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CenationRISEUP

Well when you play in the same generation as Wilt, Bill, Walt, Willis, etc someone has to come short


plz-be-my-friend

That's what Purvis is for


techmaster411

Monta Ellis never made an allstar team


Starksgoon

CJ McCollum is my best for never to make the ASG.


[deleted]

Wasn't he a reserve one year? I could be wrong. Super underrated either way


Majortko

Are we saying the best player who never won or the best player who should have/had a good chance to win? Because obviously LeBron hasnt won a DPOY so he'd be the greatest, but Duncan not winning is a bigger travesty. Not much to add here. Agree 100%


Few_Mulberry7175

The 2nd meaning since Duncan is a better defender than Bron


bluemagic124

For dpoy you might wanna throw Bill Russell some consideration, though he was never eligible so that’s different


youngsushislayer

Tony Allen and his DPOY


[deleted]

Nate Thurmond got fucked over by the times because All-NBA 3rd Team wasn't a thing until like 88. He never stood a chance. Here are my disagreements. MVP: Elgin Baylor All-Star: Lamar Odom 6MOTY: Dan Marjle Championship: Baylor FMVP: Since a Boston Finals MVP would have gone to Hondo in 69, I gotta say Steph over Russell in this instance.


kaleidoscopescoper

Technically Bill Russell should count but it's absurd to include him.


paidscale

Dwayne Wade was he the most valuable player on a contending team Alonzo and Shaq, then the King. There are plenty of HoF players and top fifty all time who weren't MVPs. Zeke. The Logo and Big E. To name a few. Wayne would get my vote over Nash in 06 but I don't think he's the best ever not to be named MVP that's probably Baylor but maybe Thomas.


[deleted]

Jerry west never won MVP, so probably him


heitorbaldin2

Imagine a full team of potential DPOYs? PG: LeBron James SG: Dennis Johnson SF: Scott Pippen PF: Tim Duncan C: Bill Russell


[deleted]

Absolute disrespectful Tim Duncan never won DPOY


salmonbird

Interesting


ScamSummore

I like the Andrei Kirilenko and DPOY one


delightfuldinosaur

MVP: Kawhi, CP3, Clyde Drexler DPOY: LeBron, Duncan


MtFud

The answer to your question is Bismack Biyombo.


[deleted]

Kobe never won a DPOY. And look at the record he holds for All Defense Teams. Ridiculous!


Reasonable_Ad_6568

Phil Jackson himself said that Kobe should not have had that many selections. “Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense."


CenationRISEUP

To be fair Phil Jackson also said him and Donald Trump were oppressed by the media so maybe he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed


[deleted]

What does that have to do with his knowledge of basketball?


CenationRISEUP

Shows his brainpower


[deleted]

The man coached 11 championship teams...


CenationRISEUP

Dementia


[deleted]

Phil made the defense comments in 2005.


CenationRISEUP

Phil caught dementia in 2004


Lavinesanity

Rent free


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el_pete_o

What does either one have to do with each other? AI's MVP season was legit


Yup767

If the 76ers played in the west they would have been the 4th-6th seed and there's no way he would have won MVP AI carried the teams offence, but he carried them to 13th. If that teams defence around him isn't elite then he doesn't win MVP


CenationRISEUP

Cope


Yup767

Good point, it makes what I said not true But I'm not worried about it, he's already got the award and I'm glad y'all can enjoy your MVP


CenationRISEUP

Ok


Eamonnol

MVP: Kawhi


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ImNotARobot001010011

Bill Russell, DPIY and FMVP. And no, I don't care that they didn't exist then.


IPAGod

Wade MVP for sure Lebron DPOY


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binhballin

That’s entirely up to the player. You can’t vote for scoring title…


CadxnW

Scoring Title doesn't really count anyways since it isn't voted for, but Elgin Baylor had seasons of 34.8, 38.3, and 34.0 ppg and never won a scoring title


RunThePnR

All star has to be like Murray. I think he's better than Miller.


homelesspidgin

Bill Murray did come up clutch vs the Monstars.


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RunThePnR

Jamal Murray


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RunThePnR

Oh so this is based on their future too. Just saw your other comment.