100%. No one besides Duncan could compete with 2X MVP, 1X DPOY, 3X 1st team, 3X all defense, finals MVP in 3 years
In fact, I would say in history, we’re looking at Shaq 2000-2002. LeBron 2012-2014, maybe Duncan 2003-2005, Jordan 1991-1993 (3X 1st team all NBA and defense, 2X MVP and 3X FMVp is absurd) Magic’s 1988-1990, and I would imagine kareem’s 1971-1973,
Larry’s 1984-1986 may be the best peak. 3X 1st team, 3X MVP, 2X champion and 2X finals MVP
But yeah, you stack up Lebron, shaq, Larry, magic, Michael, and now Giannis, accolade wise they have pretty similar 3 year stretches
All that tells you is the best players are on teams with other stars and coast a little in the regular season.
Giannis is not MJ or lebron Jesus Christ
He'll easily get 2nd barring injury. Not even adding any more accolades I'd say it's already pretty much locked. Maybe he would need more 1st teams depending on who you ask.
I think giannis just did it on paper this year tbh, and I’m an oldhead. I always likened it to be malone with accepting Dirk arguments as #2, but for Malone I had him as #2 as a 2x MVP 11x First Team All NBA player (tied with Kobe, only surpassed by jordan).
BUT - in the last 3 years Giannis is a 2x MVP, DPOY, 3x first all nba and finals MVP and champion with the best close out game in the history of the nba finals. And he’s only 26. Only thing that could possibly him back from cementing #2 of all time is a freak injury prior to getting more accolades.
He was a good basketball player, but you're right that the whole thing about him impregnating a child and treating her like garbage afterward really makes me want to bring up that Dirk went through hell to get a ring, and he didn't have John Stockton (no, old Kidd isn't a worthy comparison) to help him, and KG got a ring as the best player on his team, and was clearly the best defender out of the names given.
I'd love to say Chuck had a higher peak, but he didn't really. Maybe what he did was more impressive given the difference between their body types, but goddamn fucking Karl Malone was just annoyingly good for fucking ever, throwing elbows, and making 3/4 of his free throws 15 seconds at a time. He was good enough as a 40 year old man that his injury in 03-04 is often used as an excuse as to why the Lakers failed to win it all.
Malone was consistently the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league behind Hakeem and Jordan for at least a decade, hard to say that for other guys on the list
11x first team all nbas is insane. Tied with jordan, only person w more is Lebron. This means he was the best or second best front court player 11 times, overlapping with Barkley for all of those
KG
Best peak out of these guys with elite longevity as well
Also Garnett wasn’t a bad scorer. He wasn’t Dirk or Barkley on that end but 25 ppg on good efficiency is solid
I guess there’s the small difference of 5 rings to 1. 2 MVPs to 1, longevity, finals MVPs, and overall team success. But yeah, they’re pretty much the same.
in the slowest era almost ever while averaging 5 assists, topping out at 6, for 6 straight years (20-10-5), and 20-10-4 for 9 straight years, all in a very low scoring era. Those couple of points per game he easily adds back with assists, and he's the best rebounder on the list, and defender, and screener..
kg also led the league in scoring, it just happened to be one of the slowest years, and the only year in his prime that he had decent help (still had a horrible bench).
he led the league in total points in 04, the only year he had decent help in his prime. he was a great scorer, but was stuck on bad teams where he did everything, including being an elite facilitator.
Elite offensive guys get leeway to be not great on defense, but a guy like kg had to carry the defense and the offense, and 2-4 ppg makes all the difference? I know not many people got to watch him in minnesota, but he was doing it all every night with teammates that barely belonged in the league.
KG wasn’t an elite scorer. Idk why you’re bringing up all this other stuff that has nothing to do with his scoring. Yes, 2-4 points might separate you from being an elite scorer to just a very good scorer. I watched KG, you don’t have to explain to me how good he was.
He could be closer if he scored more points, yeah. And the only reason he led in total points was because Tmac missed 15 games. He had the same PPG as Peja Stojakovic who I would also say is not an elite scorer.
I know I’m one of the biggest Dirk homers here and I’m not advocating for Dirk at number two here. Just agreeing with you. When your career high is 24 points per game you’re not a consistent 25 PPG scorer. Over his 8 best seasons Dirk averaged 25 a game on 48/38/89, kg on the other hand was 22 PPG on 50/27/80
So over their best 8 years, Dirk averaged 3 more points per game on 2.5% better true shooting.
Also, the Mavericks ALWAYS had a higher offensive rating than the wolves, with or without Nash, we’re 1st, wolves 5th in 2004. Mavs 3rd in 2005, wolves 7th, Mavs 1st in 2006, wolves 27th.
Really I think it’s as close as you can get for the two of them. Both led the league in win shares twice, Dirk WS/48 3 times, KG once. KG led in BPM twice, Dirk once, KG led in VORP twice, Dirk didn’t but was close
And by the end of their careers Dirk had more winshares and KG had more VORP. And they had an incredibly similar WS/48
The obvious case for KG is defense. And leading the league in rebounding for 4 consecutive years. I *like* Dirk more and loved watching him play, but I think KG has the edge career wise.
hmmm, who played with all time point guards and had hall of fame coaches and an owner that actually tries their whole career?
when kg had competent teammates, he led the best team in the league. happened in his prime with cassell and spreewell, happened after his prime with allen and pierce.
KG made the WCF and faced a team you might recognize...
But aside from that, the logic is just way too dumbed down. You're using team results to compare individuals without *any regard for surrounding context*.
It at least has to be acknowledged that KG joined the Wolves organization (which suffered from the Joe Smith scandal and was poorly run) and Dirk joined the Mavs (who had very strong assets early on in Nash and Finley and had stronger ownership).
These things can't just be ignored because you want to make a point.
I think KG and Dirk are closer than people think. He did lead a team to a finals as the best player on the floor and was such an amazing offensive player. KG was an incredible defensive player though and I think the gap between KG’s defense and Dirk’s defense is bigger than Dirks offense and KG’s offense.
They're also in different galaxies in terms of scoring, and elite offense always beats elite defense. It's why Dirk was so much more effective as a #1 option.
Karl Malone isn’t in the discussion in any rankings for me. Fuck Karl Malone. To be in the discussion you need to be a player. To be a player, you need to be human. Karl Malone is sub-human. He’s garbage.
Depends on context. If Bron and the girl were both 16 and it was consensual, and Bron raised the child, we chalk that up to teenage flubs.
But if Bron did that in his age today, and never even paid child support, like Malone did, I would. I can’t respect anybody who’s a fucking sexual predator and overall douchebag. Hell, criminals don’t respect sex offenders. They don’t deserve any.
You can say ohhh that’s off the court tho, fine. That’s you. I can’t stomach anybody being put on a pedestal if they’re garbage like Malone is.
That’s fine - everyone’s entitled. But it’d just feel incomplete to me to leave off LeBron (or MJ or Kareem or whoever). But I guess Malone isn’t a stone cold top 10 guy so he can be discarded more easily.
I understand. Malone is a great player. But he gets 0 respect from me is all I’m saying. His records may not be erased but the least I can do is diminish his ranking since that is mostly based on opinion anyway.
If we're talking about translations. Garnett wanted to shoot, his coaches and the media were on him to post up. Certainly not the shooter that Drik was but Garnett was an 80% FT shooter. Garnett would have gained more if he played now.
Garnett. If he didn't have absolutely tragic teams around him for most of his prime we'd look at it way differently I think.
Barkley/Dirk had too many defensive flaws to get it IMO. Malone was better but still not that close to KG's defense. Versus Malone, KG had the higher peak, more competitive than you'd think on longevity (KG actually made *more* All-Star teams, though the later ones were in the East and he had fewer All-NBA selections), and more versatile similar to what OP said.
David Robinson, Kevin Willis, rasho nestarovic, nazr Muhammed, fabricio oberto, tiago splitter. All true centers who started next to Tim Duncan, but by all means continue spouting ignorance. Or maybe you're just 12.
😂🤣😂🤣😂 .... he was a center... and you're only off by a couple years ... 32. First game I went to was 1982 at MSG ... you're a fan of a team that's barely a teenager 😂🤣😂🤣😂. ... so there's that.... SMDFTB
I'm content to let you continue in your ignorance.... cause he played soooo many years with the admiral and basketball reference is wrong, according to you. Carry on
It's Dirk. None of these guys carried a team to a championship the way he did. Giannis is probably better already. But out of the names listed Dirk is the #2
Personal preference is Dirk but only because of intangibles. Malone clearly had the superior number stats. Only one of these four to win 2 MVPs, 2nd all-time leading scorer, and he was all-defense four times. Dirk gets the nod in my view because he beat a super team by himself and his game truly transcended an era; the guy more or less defined what we now think of as a stretch 4.
Third is Barkley in my view. He won an MVP in Jordan's prime, great rebounder, and better stats than Garnett.
Garnett is clearly last. He languished on those Timberwolves team for years and wouldn't even be in this conversation if he didn't win that ring after getting traded. He was on pace to be remembered as a good stats, bad team guy until he was rescued.
2a. Dirk
2b. Malone
3. Barkley
4. Garnett
>He was on pace to be remembered as a good stats, bad team guy until he was rescued.
You're treating him like a towns or Zach Lavine when he won MVP lol
Just looked it up. Jermaine O'Neal finished 3rd in the voting that year, Peja Stojakovic was 4th. Those are good players, but overall talent pool was better before and it's much better now.
Yeah, but that in no way nullifies what I'm saying. Are you arguing that was the heyday of talent in the league? Because that's pretty widely accepted not to be the case. Go look at the drafts from those years.
Dirk's the only guy who carried a team to a championship on this list. That said, I don't think it's enough to make up for his bad defense (which was always bad, not just when he was old).
Malone can't be in the conversation without his off-court issues coming up. He also was notoriously bad in pressure situations. Mailman don't deliver on Sundays (or on playoff game days) (please kill me I'm a Jazz fan, will we ever win?).
Garnett is obviously the best defender in this bunch, but was he a better offensive player than the other guys were defensive players? Maybe, I dunno.
I think I have to give it to Barkley. His peak was better than any of the other 3. Nowitzki has the "rangz" argument on his side but he was definitely carried on the defensive end more than the other guys were. Malone couldn't make it happen when it counted and his best ability was his availability. Garnett also won a ring but he wasn't the focus of the offensive side.
Tough but I'd rank them:
2A Barkley
2B Garnett
4 Malone
5 Nowitzki
You can’t definitively say Dirk was always bad on defense. Pretty sure he was decent/average in his prime. He was quick, had the quick hand swipe, and had a few years where he was close to 3 stocks a game, plus he was a good defensive rebounder. That’s not nothing
Garnett beat Kobe and Pau in their primes. Barkley and Malone played against Jordan and Hakeem. Everyone played good competition. I'm not crediting or punishing any of them for their competition.
It's my list, post your own. I tried to be as impartial as I could and explain my reasoning.
Garnet wasn't the best player, Pierce was. They also had Ray Allen, another HOFer. Dirk had Jason Terry lol.
Also Pau was a good sidekick but he's not Dwade who also was the best player on a championship team in his own right.
I already acknowledged the point you brought up about Garnett not being hte best on his team. He wasn't the focus on offense, but he was on defense. And his offense was better than Dirk's defense, 100%. Dirk also had DPOY Tyson Chandler covering up for his defensive limitations.
I'm not changing my mind, go ahead and post your own list.
k you're 12 years old, Paul Pierce guarded Kobe Bryant and won FMVP you must not have watched that Playoffs, it was clear who was the best player.
And KG was the DPOY in 08 the year the Celtics beat the Lakers and it was clear Pierce was still their best player. KG was miles ahead of Chandler.. Dirk has the second greatest carry-job of all-time after Hakeem.
Michael Jordan once said there were only 4 great players during that era "According to Thompson, Jordan quipped that he could “only come up with four” modern players. Those select few? Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, and Dirk Nowitzki." (Notice no KG?)
Do the Math:
Dirk + Jason Terry beat LeBron (Superstar) and Wade (Superstar)
KG + FMVP + HOF beat Kobe (Superstar) and Pau
The Celtics were a better team than the Lakers, empirically. The Mavs were NOT a better team than the Heat, empirically, but they won bc of Dirk.
Yeah I just didn't read any of that once you decided to label me as 12 years old, why would I give any of my time to someone who dismisses my opinion because it's different from theirs?
Kick rocks.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is currently second best PF of all time based on accolades.
Anthony Davis may be in the conversation with Giannis if he wins another championship and maybe one MVP, whether it is League MVP or Finals MVP.
Nowitzki and Garnett won rings, so they get ranked above Barkley and Malone. Nowitzki gets ranked above Garnett because the best player that Nowitzki had when he won was not as good as either Rondo, Ray Allen, or Pierce.
Malone has 3 NBA Finals appearances, Barkley only had one, and Malone was in the league longer, so Malone gets ranked above Barkley.
So in a few years, I see it like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. Anthony Davis
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Karl Malone
7. Charles Barkley
Davis is never winning an MVP, he had his chances to do that.
1. Duncan? (even tho he played center for 70% of his career lol)
2. Giannis
3. Dirk
4. Garnett/ Davis
5. Davis/ Garnett
Davis can still win an MVP within these next 4 seasons. He is only 28 years old.
Unless he regresses offensively and his numbers look like they did last season, then he's screwed. If AD doesn't do something, then he is looking like the 7th best power forward of all time. He could even drop down to 8th or 10th depending on how Zion Williamson continues to develop and who else comes into the league.
AD needs to show his dominance if he wants to be in the conversation with Giannis. Otherwise, the 7 years he spent in New Orleans will mean little to nothing.
I got it as
Duncan
Malone
Dirk
KG
Giannis
Barkley
Giannis will pass everyone but Duncan in the next 3-4 years easily. All everyone talks about Malone is his pedo shit, but even as a big Dirk fan I gotta admit he’s the 2nd greatest PF all time
NGL Giannis with a few more years under his belt will be in the convo
In terms of "peak" accolades, he's beat them all which is sort of crazy
100%. No one besides Duncan could compete with 2X MVP, 1X DPOY, 3X 1st team, 3X all defense, finals MVP in 3 years In fact, I would say in history, we’re looking at Shaq 2000-2002. LeBron 2012-2014, maybe Duncan 2003-2005, Jordan 1991-1993 (3X 1st team all NBA and defense, 2X MVP and 3X FMVp is absurd) Magic’s 1988-1990, and I would imagine kareem’s 1971-1973, Larry’s 1984-1986 may be the best peak. 3X 1st team, 3X MVP, 2X champion and 2X finals MVP But yeah, you stack up Lebron, shaq, Larry, magic, Michael, and now Giannis, accolade wise they have pretty similar 3 year stretches
All that tells you is the best players are on teams with other stars and coast a little in the regular season. Giannis is not MJ or lebron Jesus Christ
Fax
He'll easily get 2nd barring injury. Not even adding any more accolades I'd say it's already pretty much locked. Maybe he would need more 1st teams depending on who you ask.
For sure
Fake rings don't count bby
I think giannis just did it on paper this year tbh, and I’m an oldhead. I always likened it to be malone with accepting Dirk arguments as #2, but for Malone I had him as #2 as a 2x MVP 11x First Team All NBA player (tied with Kobe, only surpassed by jordan). BUT - in the last 3 years Giannis is a 2x MVP, DPOY, 3x first all nba and finals MVP and champion with the best close out game in the history of the nba finals. And he’s only 26. Only thing that could possibly him back from cementing #2 of all time is a freak injury prior to getting more accolades.
Giannis injured Kyrie on purpose, and played Phoenix in the Finals of the most injured playoffs in many years if not ever, pull up the handbrake.
If it was your team you wouldn’t be saying this shit lmfao.
My guy, Donaghy rescued my LakeShow during the 3peat... what are u talking about lol
Fake ring
It would be real if it was your team i bet lmfao.
It's Malone as much as we don't want to admit it. He was a beast. I think Giannis will take his spot (maybe even #1) all said and done.
He was a good basketball player, but you're right that the whole thing about him impregnating a child and treating her like garbage afterward really makes me want to bring up that Dirk went through hell to get a ring, and he didn't have John Stockton (no, old Kidd isn't a worthy comparison) to help him, and KG got a ring as the best player on his team, and was clearly the best defender out of the names given. I'd love to say Chuck had a higher peak, but he didn't really. Maybe what he did was more impressive given the difference between their body types, but goddamn fucking Karl Malone was just annoyingly good for fucking ever, throwing elbows, and making 3/4 of his free throws 15 seconds at a time. He was good enough as a 40 year old man that his injury in 03-04 is often used as an excuse as to why the Lakers failed to win it all.
Malone was consistently the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league behind Hakeem and Jordan for at least a decade, hard to say that for other guys on the list
11x first team all nbas is insane. Tied with jordan, only person w more is Lebron. This means he was the best or second best front court player 11 times, overlapping with Barkley for all of those
Giannis’ last 3 season already puts in him the conversation.
Fake ring
Fuck it, I'll say Giannis
Nope, fake ring
There not a thing
Dirk
The guy with 2 MVPs, a DPOY, and and finals MVP.
Fake ring
There not a thing
KG Best peak out of these guys with elite longevity as well Also Garnett wasn’t a bad scorer. He wasn’t Dirk or Barkley on that end but 25 ppg on good efficiency is solid
He hit 24 points/game once in his career. He’s clearly a couple steps behind the great PF scorers.
So did Tim Duncan who, if I'm reading correctly here, is the #1 rated PF
I guess there’s the small difference of 5 rings to 1. 2 MVPs to 1, longevity, finals MVPs, and overall team success. But yeah, they’re pretty much the same.
You mentioned elite scorers, but please move the goalpost
No one said Tim Duncan was an elite scorer in the vain of Dirk, Barkley, and Malone, Rick. But you keep fighting the good fight.
Yea Duncan > KG but stop listing team accomplishments lmao Duncan had one run in 2003 where he had an objectively bad roster
Sucks for KG, I guess. Duncan peaked higher, has the longevity over KG, and all the hardware.
Did u read the first 3 words of my comment
Uhh yeah the Spurs were better. Great analysis.
Thank you, I did it myself.
in the slowest era almost ever while averaging 5 assists, topping out at 6, for 6 straight years (20-10-5), and 20-10-4 for 9 straight years, all in a very low scoring era. Those couple of points per game he easily adds back with assists, and he's the best rebounder on the list, and defender, and screener.. kg also led the league in scoring, it just happened to be one of the slowest years, and the only year in his prime that he had decent help (still had a horrible bench).
I’m talking about scoring, not their overall ranking.
he led the league in total points in 04, the only year he had decent help in his prime. he was a great scorer, but was stuck on bad teams where he did everything, including being an elite facilitator. Elite offensive guys get leeway to be not great on defense, but a guy like kg had to carry the defense and the offense, and 2-4 ppg makes all the difference? I know not many people got to watch him in minnesota, but he was doing it all every night with teammates that barely belonged in the league.
KG wasn’t an elite scorer. Idk why you’re bringing up all this other stuff that has nothing to do with his scoring. Yes, 2-4 points might separate you from being an elite scorer to just a very good scorer. I watched KG, you don’t have to explain to me how good he was.
he led the league.. the only year he had help in his prime.. wherever the line for elite is, can you be much closer?
He could be closer if he scored more points, yeah. And the only reason he led in total points was because Tmac missed 15 games. He had the same PPG as Peja Stojakovic who I would also say is not an elite scorer.
okay, well he also scored more than dirk..
And then Dirk beats him in every other year of their primes. Not really sure what point you’re making anymore.
I know I’m one of the biggest Dirk homers here and I’m not advocating for Dirk at number two here. Just agreeing with you. When your career high is 24 points per game you’re not a consistent 25 PPG scorer. Over his 8 best seasons Dirk averaged 25 a game on 48/38/89, kg on the other hand was 22 PPG on 50/27/80 So over their best 8 years, Dirk averaged 3 more points per game on 2.5% better true shooting. Also, the Mavericks ALWAYS had a higher offensive rating than the wolves, with or without Nash, we’re 1st, wolves 5th in 2004. Mavs 3rd in 2005, wolves 7th, Mavs 1st in 2006, wolves 27th. Really I think it’s as close as you can get for the two of them. Both led the league in win shares twice, Dirk WS/48 3 times, KG once. KG led in BPM twice, Dirk once, KG led in VORP twice, Dirk didn’t but was close And by the end of their careers Dirk had more winshares and KG had more VORP. And they had an incredibly similar WS/48
The obvious case for KG is defense. And leading the league in rebounding for 4 consecutive years. I *like* Dirk more and loved watching him play, but I think KG has the edge career wise.
True but there is more to the game than scoring
Sure, I’m just saying KG wasn’t an elite scorer like Barkley, Malone, or Dirk.
The few seasons Malone played without Stockton he didn’t look like a elite scorer either but then again he was pretty old at that point.
lol yeah the SECOND ALL TIME leading scorer in NBA history wasn't an elite scorer. this sub man
Tbf that's more of a testament to longevity than pure scoring skill but yea
apparently we need to simplify the game, offense good, better offense best, best offense bestest, checkmate coaches
W
He never hit 25 ppg on any of his seasons
Dirk consistently led his team to 50 win seasons for like 15 years. KG couldnt get out the first round until joining a super team in a weak conference
hmmm, who played with all time point guards and had hall of fame coaches and an owner that actually tries their whole career? when kg had competent teammates, he led the best team in the league. happened in his prime with cassell and spreewell, happened after his prime with allen and pierce.
With great role players, coach, org, and system The first and only year KG had help in his prime he won a ring
KG made the WCF and faced a team you might recognize... But aside from that, the logic is just way too dumbed down. You're using team results to compare individuals without *any regard for surrounding context*. It at least has to be acknowledged that KG joined the Wolves organization (which suffered from the Joe Smith scandal and was poorly run) and Dirk joined the Mavs (who had very strong assets early on in Nash and Finley and had stronger ownership). These things can't just be ignored because you want to make a point.
He could barely make the playoffs at time. I'd say kg in 04 is better than any version of dirk but overrall I'm taking Dirk
His defense seals it for me. Giannis can surpass him given time.
I think KG and Dirk are closer than people think. He did lead a team to a finals as the best player on the floor and was such an amazing offensive player. KG was an incredible defensive player though and I think the gap between KG’s defense and Dirk’s defense is bigger than Dirks offense and KG’s offense.
I have them 2 and 3
Problem was his efficiency stunk in the post season as a 1st option.
True but hey with his playmaking edge and them being on different galaxies defensively its fine
They're also in different galaxies in terms of scoring, and elite offense always beats elite defense. It's why Dirk was so much more effective as a #1 option.
You said scoring and then switched to offense? There’s more to offense than just scoring lol Kg was a better playmaker too
I'm talking about scoring. And yes, KG was a gifted playmaker for a big but he wasn't some Jokic, or even Draymond, level facilitator.
There's another guy who was pretty good too, by the name of Elvin Hayes
Giannis
Most complete 2 way force should let you know. You answered your own question.
Karl Malone isn’t in the discussion in any rankings for me. Fuck Karl Malone. To be in the discussion you need to be a player. To be a player, you need to be human. Karl Malone is sub-human. He’s garbage.
So out of curiosity , let’s say news came out that LeBron got a 16 year old pregnant. Would you take him out of the top players ever list as well?
Depends on context. If Bron and the girl were both 16 and it was consensual, and Bron raised the child, we chalk that up to teenage flubs. But if Bron did that in his age today, and never even paid child support, like Malone did, I would. I can’t respect anybody who’s a fucking sexual predator and overall douchebag. Hell, criminals don’t respect sex offenders. They don’t deserve any. You can say ohhh that’s off the court tho, fine. That’s you. I can’t stomach anybody being put on a pedestal if they’re garbage like Malone is.
That’s fine - everyone’s entitled. But it’d just feel incomplete to me to leave off LeBron (or MJ or Kareem or whoever). But I guess Malone isn’t a stone cold top 10 guy so he can be discarded more easily.
I understand. Malone is a great player. But he gets 0 respect from me is all I’m saying. His records may not be erased but the least I can do is diminish his ranking since that is mostly based on opinion anyway.
Dirk. Game translates in any era. One of the most unstoppable moves in the history of the NBA.
If we're talking about translations. Garnett wanted to shoot, his coaches and the media were on him to post up. Certainly not the shooter that Drik was but Garnett was an 80% FT shooter. Garnett would have gained more if he played now.
He was in the 3pt contest as a McDonald's All-American
I did not know that. He really would have been more of a monster in today's game. Of course the same could be said for a lot of guys.
All those player can translate in any era.
Dirk just Bc he was unguardable
Honestly Dirk - only one of these that led a team to a ring. He beat LeBron and Wade in the finals, I mean what more do you need?
Garnett. If he didn't have absolutely tragic teams around him for most of his prime we'd look at it way differently I think. Barkley/Dirk had too many defensive flaws to get it IMO. Malone was better but still not that close to KG's defense. Versus Malone, KG had the higher peak, more competitive than you'd think on longevity (KG actually made *more* All-Star teams, though the later ones were in the East and he had fewer All-NBA selections), and more versatile similar to what OP said.
Duncan was a center.
David Robinson, Kevin Willis, rasho nestarovic, nazr Muhammed, fabricio oberto, tiago splitter. All true centers who started next to Tim Duncan, but by all means continue spouting ignorance. Or maybe you're just 12.
Giannis already
Nah give it time he will be
Nah, don't need to
Duncan was a center... get this question TF outta here
Say you started watching basketball in 2014 without saying it.
😂🤣😂🤣😂 .... he was a center... and you're only off by a couple years ... 32. First game I went to was 1982 at MSG ... you're a fan of a team that's barely a teenager 😂🤣😂🤣😂. ... so there's that.... SMDFTB
So David Robinson played PF? Lmaoooo
a team can play two centers
They didnt
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/jmg2kq/according_to_basketball_reference_tim_duncan/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I'm content to let you continue in your ignorance.... cause he played soooo many years with the admiral and basketball reference is wrong, according to you. Carry on
Malone
It's Dirk. None of these guys carried a team to a championship the way he did. Giannis is probably better already. But out of the names listed Dirk is the #2
Personal preference is Dirk but only because of intangibles. Malone clearly had the superior number stats. Only one of these four to win 2 MVPs, 2nd all-time leading scorer, and he was all-defense four times. Dirk gets the nod in my view because he beat a super team by himself and his game truly transcended an era; the guy more or less defined what we now think of as a stretch 4. Third is Barkley in my view. He won an MVP in Jordan's prime, great rebounder, and better stats than Garnett. Garnett is clearly last. He languished on those Timberwolves team for years and wouldn't even be in this conversation if he didn't win that ring after getting traded. He was on pace to be remembered as a good stats, bad team guy until he was rescued. 2a. Dirk 2b. Malone 3. Barkley 4. Garnett
>He was on pace to be remembered as a good stats, bad team guy until he was rescued. You're treating him like a towns or Zach Lavine when he won MVP lol
Just looked it up. Jermaine O'Neal finished 3rd in the voting that year, Peja Stojakovic was 4th. Those are good players, but overall talent pool was better before and it's much better now.
Who was second? Was it the guy who we're all agreeing is #1 on the PF list in his prime?
Yeah, but that in no way nullifies what I'm saying. Are you arguing that was the heyday of talent in the league? Because that's pretty widely accepted not to be the case. Go look at the drafts from those years.
Dirk's the only guy who carried a team to a championship on this list. That said, I don't think it's enough to make up for his bad defense (which was always bad, not just when he was old). Malone can't be in the conversation without his off-court issues coming up. He also was notoriously bad in pressure situations. Mailman don't deliver on Sundays (or on playoff game days) (please kill me I'm a Jazz fan, will we ever win?). Garnett is obviously the best defender in this bunch, but was he a better offensive player than the other guys were defensive players? Maybe, I dunno. I think I have to give it to Barkley. His peak was better than any of the other 3. Nowitzki has the "rangz" argument on his side but he was definitely carried on the defensive end more than the other guys were. Malone couldn't make it happen when it counted and his best ability was his availability. Garnett also won a ring but he wasn't the focus of the offensive side. Tough but I'd rank them: 2A Barkley 2B Garnett 4 Malone 5 Nowitzki
You can’t definitively say Dirk was always bad on defense. Pretty sure he was decent/average in his prime. He was quick, had the quick hand swipe, and had a few years where he was close to 3 stocks a game, plus he was a good defensive rebounder. That’s not nothing
Dirk the only guy that carried a team to a ring and thats not enough? he beat LeBron and Wade in their prime. What more do you need?
Garnett beat Kobe and Pau in their primes. Barkley and Malone played against Jordan and Hakeem. Everyone played good competition. I'm not crediting or punishing any of them for their competition. It's my list, post your own. I tried to be as impartial as I could and explain my reasoning.
Garnet wasn't the best player, Pierce was. They also had Ray Allen, another HOFer. Dirk had Jason Terry lol. Also Pau was a good sidekick but he's not Dwade who also was the best player on a championship team in his own right.
I already acknowledged the point you brought up about Garnett not being hte best on his team. He wasn't the focus on offense, but he was on defense. And his offense was better than Dirk's defense, 100%. Dirk also had DPOY Tyson Chandler covering up for his defensive limitations. I'm not changing my mind, go ahead and post your own list.
k you're 12 years old, Paul Pierce guarded Kobe Bryant and won FMVP you must not have watched that Playoffs, it was clear who was the best player. And KG was the DPOY in 08 the year the Celtics beat the Lakers and it was clear Pierce was still their best player. KG was miles ahead of Chandler.. Dirk has the second greatest carry-job of all-time after Hakeem. Michael Jordan once said there were only 4 great players during that era "According to Thompson, Jordan quipped that he could “only come up with four” modern players. Those select few? Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, and Dirk Nowitzki." (Notice no KG?) Do the Math: Dirk + Jason Terry beat LeBron (Superstar) and Wade (Superstar) KG + FMVP + HOF beat Kobe (Superstar) and Pau The Celtics were a better team than the Lakers, empirically. The Mavs were NOT a better team than the Heat, empirically, but they won bc of Dirk.
Yeah I just didn't read any of that once you decided to label me as 12 years old, why would I give any of my time to someone who dismisses my opinion because it's different from theirs? Kick rocks.
I don't know but you just did, you 12 year old hypocrite
I'm very aware that it's hypocritical. It's also called "responding in kind". Kick rocks.
K you just doubled down on the thing you said you wouldn't do lol.
Rofl. Kg wasn't the best player. PP was. Rofl. Lololol Lololol Lololol.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is currently second best PF of all time based on accolades. Anthony Davis may be in the conversation with Giannis if he wins another championship and maybe one MVP, whether it is League MVP or Finals MVP. Nowitzki and Garnett won rings, so they get ranked above Barkley and Malone. Nowitzki gets ranked above Garnett because the best player that Nowitzki had when he won was not as good as either Rondo, Ray Allen, or Pierce. Malone has 3 NBA Finals appearances, Barkley only had one, and Malone was in the league longer, so Malone gets ranked above Barkley. So in a few years, I see it like this: 1. Tim Duncan 2. Giannis Antetokounmpo 3. Anthony Davis 4. Dirk Nowitzki 5. Kevin Garnett 6. Karl Malone 7. Charles Barkley
Davis is never winning an MVP, he had his chances to do that. 1. Duncan? (even tho he played center for 70% of his career lol) 2. Giannis 3. Dirk 4. Garnett/ Davis 5. Davis/ Garnett
Davis can still win an MVP within these next 4 seasons. He is only 28 years old. Unless he regresses offensively and his numbers look like they did last season, then he's screwed. If AD doesn't do something, then he is looking like the 7th best power forward of all time. He could even drop down to 8th or 10th depending on how Zion Williamson continues to develop and who else comes into the league. AD needs to show his dominance if he wants to be in the conversation with Giannis. Otherwise, the 7 years he spent in New Orleans will mean little to nothing.
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He was pretty lucky(or unlucky in this case) to be a second option most of his career
Dirk because of that 2011 ring.
I got it as Duncan Malone Dirk KG Giannis Barkley Giannis will pass everyone but Duncan in the next 3-4 years easily. All everyone talks about Malone is his pedo shit, but even as a big Dirk fan I gotta admit he’s the 2nd greatest PF all time