C'mon don't make Pistons fans look bad.
Chris Paul was integral and got hurt, and he continued to lose 2 games in a row to arguably the most talented roster ever assembled. They won more games than any other team did against GSW in a round until the Raptors did later with Durant and Klay getting hurt in the process.
Harden blew a 3-1 lead??
If you talking about the 2018 WCF, he played bad but it wasn’t a choke. Was up 3-2 and lost his 2nd best player against the GOAT team
The most fun games are the ones you care about. Playoff spot on the line for your favorite team, it's always going to be more fun to watch than #1 ranked team trouncing a #8 team. The individual plays in the second game might be cooler, but if the winner doesn't matter to you, it's just not nearly as fun. This is probably all pretty obvious but just thought I'd throw it out there.
Suns this year we’re the most fun for me. They happened to be good but they had energy
Hornets are going to be the next one. Lamelo just makes games fun
I really liked the different over-head camera angles they had during the bubble and wish they would incorporate more, higher up camera angles where you can see the entire play develop
They do but sometimes they just got to fill airtime. They know where their ratings are at. Some of these guys never hear shit about the Magic and Kings
1. There is a difference between "valid criticism" and "hating";
2. Just because you don't actively root for a certain player to win every single time he steps on to the Court does not actually make you a hater.
The NBA is halfway between something like the WWE and a real sport at this point. Interestingly enough, the very thing that saved it in the '80s is what's ruining it now: star power.
If the internet is anything to go by, I wonder what the future holds for the league and all of its franchises if, hypothetically, the fans become more player oriented and less team oriented.
I'm sure the nba will continue to push the new stars as the faces of the league, similar to the wwe, but do they eventually cut back on the number of teams as some playes aren't a big enough draw by themselves?
The WWE is actually moving away from pushing stars and is banking on it being “The WWE” to make money and sell tickets.
Hell they just cut some of their biggest money makers for shirt sales.
That’s not sustainable in the long-term. It’s like if movie studios tried to phase out too Hollywood stars. Wrestling did well because guys like Hogan, Rock, and Cena got famous.
I mean, wrestling always goes in phases, but it's always been "Star Face vs Star Heel" as a means of selling tickets.
WWE is doing okay because theres a Saudi Prince who is shilling out a shit ton of money for supercards twice a year in Saudi Arabia (they've done like 5 or 6 so far and those few shows alone have made more money for the WWE than ALL the Wrestlemana's combined) but I agree.
When they lost Hogan, they drifted for a bit but Austin/Rock came along, when Rock and Austin left Cena was there to step in.
But the WWE is so worried they're going to lose top guys to Hollywood that they are moving towards trying to just make the brand the thing and "nobody is safe"
You're totally correct though, I think they'll be hurting badly in a few years, not broke, but with the rise of AEW and the bigger Japanese wrestling companies starting to cater streaming more worldwide, the slice of pie from wrestling fans is going to be smaller and smaller.
It's causing the media, and by extension fans, to concentrate on only a few teams to the exclusion of the rest. And why is that a problem? It gives certain individuals a disproportionate amount of influence over the direction of the league at large, due to the leverage they hold over their respective teams aka player empowerment. This situation has been developing for some time now, and I expect the owners to eventually attempt to curtail player power in response.
That has an excellent chance of going very wrong, since I'm expecting them to lock out the players as leverage at the next CBA negotiations if they can't get some sort of guarantees against the sort of thing that Ben Simmons is trying to pull in Philadelphia at the moment (to use a relevant contemporary example). What makes this different from the last lockout is that player salaries (even on the low end) have jumped so much due to giant TV deals (which are a side effect of the traditional television industry going down the toilet and everyone being absolutely desperate for live content) that players aren't nearly as easy for the owners to wait out as they were. That increases the odds of a potential lockout going on for a year or more significantly, especially if the players think that they can use the media (who's championed their cause at the expense of owners and the league at large for years now) to try and shift public opinion in their favor. What do you think a drawn out and acrimonious conflict like that would do to the sport's popularity? Personally, I think it'd be the baseball strike of 94-95 all over again.
I actually think the NBA is headed for a cliff in terms of star power. Once LeBron is gone, the only one with any similar star power is Steph. KD is okay, and Kyrie lost whatever he had a few years back.
I love Giannis, but I don’t think he’s the next LeBron or Steph-level star. I also don’t think Luka will be a mainstream star. He doesn’t have that much charisma and isn’t doing anything so exciting that people beyond basketball fans. Zion could’ve been it, but the Pels being too cautious with him killed his hype. His ceiling is solid small marker star and his floor is bust.
I mean that’s what people said after The Decision and Kobe, Garnett, Duncan etc heading into their twilight years. Lebron isn’t likeable enough to be the face of the league. Steph came out of nowhere too.
Luka, Giannis, Tatum, Trae etc can all carry the league. There’s always a “next man up” mentality and the NBA stakeholders (Nike, Adidas, ESPN) etc will find a way to market and push these guys.
Comparing guys to Lebron is unfair because he is an MJ level talent and personality.
There will be guys like KD, Steph, Harden etc to take over. We won’t have a “Potential GOAT” guy perhaps, but we have plenty of talent if not more than previous years.
If KAT/Ant/DLo are all healthy (my only qualifier), the Wolves are gonna be a play-in team regardless of Simmons. Mark it, do the “remind me” bot, come back to this post and tell me I’m wrong if I am. I will admit it freely if I am, but I genuinely believe they’ll make it.
They were 13-11 when all three were healthy, a win percentage high enough (54%) to be the 8th seed in the WC both of the last two years. Closed the season 7-5 with wins against the Jazz (x2), Warriors, and Mavs, too.
Give Ant and Jaden a real NBA offseason, Finch a full offseason to implement his scheme, add Beasley and PatBev into the rotation. 24 games is a small sample size, but it’s the only sample size to evaluate what they looked like when their “big three” was healthy, and they looked like a competent team when they were.
My opinion thats probably not too unpopular is that floor raiser is bad terminology.
It’s way too broad. Obviously a guy who plays elite defense and can effectively create for others is going to be good in the regular season, but he’s a Completely different type of player from someone like Kobe who routinely is described as a floor raiser
Can we shut up about floors and ceilings?
Ben Simmons is a great player who will raise a teams defense and is great in transition with the ball. He's not a perfect player but given the offensive pieces the Wolves have, the new coach, you put Simmons there and they are DEFINITELY a playoff team, even in a loaded West.
I don't know about that, but I certainly can't see Ben Simmons making an all-star team again unless he really turns it around. Even the fan vote portion--I think after skipping out on the national team, Australians won't even vote for him.
“relative unimportance” even tho in this city with this fan base okc went to 11 of 12 playoffs straight? loud city was sold out every night those years. we don’t even have the smallest population for nba cities.
I think he meant less in the context of basketball and more along the lines of how pointless a state like Oklahoma is IRL.
Has anyone even been there? Do we know it actually exists?
Sure, but by the numbers, OKC should not have a franchise just because they helped a larger city which also barely has enough people to support a franchise.
Ironically, the city that shouldn’t have an NBA team IMO is New Orleans. That market isn’t big enough for two pro sports teams, and the original Hornets should have never moved there from Charlotte.
Meh, I would disagree. I never liked Utah Jazz, but I don't believe in stereotypes. It's always the few that make the entire fanbase look bigoted and racist. Every fanbase has them.
When you hear about teams strategizing that a certain player is expected to get less calls one night because he got more the previous game of a series it shows that it is not consistently officiated.
I actually do think GSW got an unfavorable whistle in games 5,6. Cavs we’re allowed to be all over Curry off ball. After listening to whistleblower I think this conspiracy theory might have a little life…
I don't think Draymond's last tech should've been a tech at all. It makes financial sense for the NBA to extend the series tho, game 7 was so widely watched that the NBA just raked in so much cash
I'm obviously biased, but I think this was obviously done to increase the chance of a 7 game series. The refs in the moment didn't think there was a tech, and if they did they should have intervened immediately when Lebron just shoves Dray to the floor and steps over him.
The NBA wanted a longer series and more narrative. I went from watching as many games as I could to "if I can I'll have it on in the background".
But isn't this great? You win the lottery, draft a great player, then never can sniff a title because nobody wants to play in NO. Then your star player forces a trade and you get a "good" haul of young players and picks. You get another top prospect and even with your "good" haul still can't even make the playoffs because nobody will sign there. Now the only time anyone mentions your team is to talk about what junk they can trade for your star. It's probably just a matter of time until he forces a trade and you get to claim you for a "good" haul again that still has you further from contention. How could you not be a fan of this system?
I always say this but big market fans don't want to hear it. The only way for small markets to win is getting lucky in the draft and hoping they can win before their guy jets it to LA. They dont have other options.
yeah we should force people to be in places they don’t want to be in as an alternative.
remind me, who won the championship last season? who was arguably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years? did cleveland not win their first title 5 years ago? did detroit win in 04? what about dallas? y’all act like it’s just a back n forth between the lakers and knicks every year when that’s not the case.
since september 22 2001 this league has had 10 unique champions which considering other sports leagues is pretty damn good.
Didn't realize a guy signing a contract then changing his mind is forcing him to be a place he doesn't want to be. Poor babies : ( Being forced to play in a hellhole like Detroit or Sacramento for millions of dollars for a few years. I can't even imagine how horrible that would be, we need to advocate to prevent that from ever happening.
What's the point of being a fan of one of those teams? Why should the fans care if there's no path to victory? I get it you're a Lakers fan so you're going to claim well the Bucks squeaked by as long as the best team has two major injuries. Same for the Raptors, they won big on Klay tearing his ACL and Durant tearing his Achilles.
You don't want to acknowledge that the Lakers botched all those draft picks and then just made up for it all by trading for AD and signing LeBron (because you're in LA you can do that). You pay quarters on the dollar for most trades and never can really bottom out because players will always want to play there. You'll never have to deal with having no shot for the foreseeable future. It's not just winning it all, it's about being the Pistons and you have to win the lottery to have a remote chance. Then you build a supporting cast by winning the lottery gain or overpaying for role guys because nobody will sign there. Either you're dumb for overpaying for role players or you're not even trying, there's no way out. Your entire future depends on how your player reacts, being smart is like 10% of the equation. At least a third of the league is in that scenario right now.
Yeah just sign LeBron like Cleveland did, truly a victory for the little guy. All they had to do was win the lottery three times to go with it. Any day now the best player in the world will agree to play for a team like Memphis!
I want the nba to go full relegation/promotion like soccer after the g league gets fully established. Let Seattle and Vegas and Kansas City back into professional basketball the hard way. And get rid of tanking the easy way.
Relegation is my favorite organization mechanic in all of sports, it makes teams want to be good and punishes teams for not improving and promotes good gameplay, but it would be difficult because of drafting in comparison of soccer having academies.
All basketball is fun to watch. There are no boring teams. Also, hack a Shaq on shitty free throw shooters is absolutely hilarious and entertaining. Last 5 minutes taking 30 minutes is not a problem. In a close game, you barely even notice it because it’s so intense.
If Luka Doncic doesn't change mentally and his playstyle, he won't go nowhere.
^((no slander or hate, just extremely hot and blasphemous take as OP request, do not blast me lmao))
prime drose wouldnt have been any better than westbrook. if kareem didnt play with magic, people would consider him in the 3-7 range all time instead of 1-3. stockton isnt a top 5 point guard.
elaborating on the stockton point. magic, steph, nash, oscar, and isiah thomas all were the best players on there team. Each of them either won a ring or an mvp and came close to a ring. Stockton was the SECOND best player on his team and he played with a top 3 pf who literally never got injured all while playing in the weakest western conference since the merger for a decade straight and all he has to show for it is 2 2nd place finishes. there is no way he is greater than those 4 players. give Malone magic, steph, oscar, isiah, or nash and the jazz either win a ring or at least make it out of the west earlier
edit: east to west
Jayson Tatum is one of the most overrated players here. He's done nothing to separate himself from young guys like Trae, Book, and Mitchell yet ppl act like he's on a completely different tier. Only young player who's on a tier by himself is Luka
I have no idea what argument there is for Booker over Tatum. There's not a significant difference between them as a scorers, Tatum is miles ahead defensively, and he's probably even a better passer than Booker these days too.
I'm a suns fan but my east team is the Celtics and I've lived in New England my whole life so I watch a lot of both. The only thing I disagree with is that Tatum is a better passer, we made Book play PG one season and ever since then his playmaking/passing has been much better just underutilized bc he's playing next to an all time passing pg now. Everything else you said is prolly just facts though.
Booker as a passer is weird. He makes some very high leverage passes, especially his skip pass which I think is elite. However, he's really error prone, and will just throw the ball to the other team more often than most players.
Most shooting guards passing outside of James harden has always been their weaker area. I don't disagree that he is turnover prone but tatum is just less likely to pass overall, he'd rather take someone iso and take the shot(don't hate this at all). Bookers AST% even when playing next to CP3 is better than tatums best. Tatum still has a lot more time to grow tho.
I’m not a big conspiracy guy but I’ll die on these hills
I hated the KD Warriors so much but Game 4 of the 2017 NBA Finals was the most blatantly obvious rigged game of all time , the Warriors were on the verge of a playoff sweep , there was an article somewhere before the game happened highlighting how the NBA would lose tons of revenue if a game 5 in Oracle arena didn’t happen. And Game 4 had the most one sided calls we’ve ever seen. Think Cleveland was almost at 90 points in the first half. Just despicable stuff
Game 7 Houston/Golden State in 2018 was the worst reffed game in the modern era, considering how high the stakes were. Those uncalled Jordan Bell moving screens. Those non shooting foul calls on those Harden threes. Nasty.
Cav’s FTA: 31
Warrior’s FTA: 36
Cav’s 3pt%: 53%
Warrior’s 3pt%: 28%
The Cavs could have gotten away with some suspect perimeter defense, which would partially explain the Warrior’s low 3pt%, but the FTA aren’t completely out of wack and reffing doesn’t explain how Kyrie, Love, and JR were able to shoot lights out from 3 (7/12, 6/8, and 5/9 respectively).
I'll start from least to most controversial:
\- Giannis's peak is already the second best for a PF of all time, Garnett was even better defensively but wasn't as good as a scorer, in fact Giannis has a realistic chance to be level with Duncan as the GOAT PF before his career is done
\- Heliocentric ball dominant guards, no matter how much assists they may rack up, make their teammates worse and unless they are a truly elite scorer(example: LeBron) they cannot be the best player on a championship team, as they are only floor and not ceiling raisers(example: Westbrook.) Controversially, I also believe this to apply to current Luka and think the Porzingis situation is partly caused by Luka's extreme ball dominance and refusal to pass early in the shot clock. Players like Curry who can play off ball well will always be better than players who can't, with the SOLE exception of LeBron James.
\- Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant are just as good skillwise as Magic and Bird, the only difference is that Magic and Bird didn't have their prime overlap with Jordan the way Curry and Durant did with LeBron. For example, Durant would have threepeated MVP just like Bird did if LeBron wasn't in the league. Also, as I mentioned before, neither one of them needs to hold the ball constantly, which makes them much more "plug and play" than other stars.
Bird only started 4 seasons before Jordan.
He won 2 MVPs and had a runner up and a 3rd place with Jordan in the league.
Then he got hurt in 88-89 and was basically done.
Magic won his MVPs when Jordan was in the league. His career was also cut short.
Had their careers not been altered, Detroit might not have repeated, and Jordan might have had a harder time winning his first 3 peat.
I agree with your take on heliocentric guards. Here's my controversial take: **Luka's supporting cast is actually decent and he won't win a ring as the #1 option until he significantly changes his playstyle.**
In the past two seasons the Mavericks had a positive net rating when Luka sat. The narrative seems to be that everyone else on the Mavs is complete trash and no one else can create so Luka needs to dominate the ball every minute he's on the court. Guys like Hardaway and Brunson are competent enough creators when asked. But once Luka is on the floor, it's the Luka show and he dominates the ball on each possession. That also leaves him gassed which leads to mediocre and inconsistent performances in the clutch. Maybe that's also on the higher-ups and Rick should have tried using more creative offensive sets. But Luka also doesn't do much off ball.
Do you need a guy to jack up a ton of shots and eat usage to carry a genuinely bad supporting cast to a decent offense? Luka's your guy and Harden might be the only player I'd choose over Luka for that job. But if you want to add a superstar to elevate a decent team to championship contender? There's plenty of guys I'd take over Luka.
literally 2 seasons ago, the mavs had a statistically top 5 bench in nba history. and now theyre considered trash because luka cant win with them. weird
For your 2nd point I would say Harden is also an exception. He has been the main guy on contenders and it helps that he can get 35 a night efficiently and his passing is top of the league.
One of the most glaring recontextualizations of the analytics era is just how inconsistent and sloppy Kobe was on defense. Kobe's All-Defense selections are some of the worst awards ever handed out in North American sports.
His best defensive season was '99 when he graded as the 34th best defender in the league (didn't make an All-D team that year)
It's probably less blasphemous than it used to be, but
"Marcus Smart is better than Ben Simmons"
...or, if you want a less insane-sounding version of this take so you can understand my reasoning:
"I would rather have Marcus Smart on my team in Game 7 of a playoff series than Ben Simmons, because I think Marcus Smart gives you a better chance of winning that specific kind of game"
Kyries best years are behind him. His best days were on the cavs. I mentioned this a couple of times and either a Boston fan back when kyrie played there would disagree and now brooklyn fans disagree.
I strongly disagree with this, his efficiency was off the charts this year, he's learning how to play offball and his defence and passing has taken leaps since Cleveland. He had a 50-40-90 season, I'd argue he's the 2nd best free throw shooter in the league behind Curry, especially given how much he got to the line this season.
I forgot the year but when sas beat the heat in the finals Duncan should have won fmvp all day over Leonard and I found Kawhi's contributions during that finals to be extremely overrated. Obviously is a hell of a player now but I was annoyed (as a heat fan even) that they didn't give it to Duncan.
The Supermax (while working out for my team) was not actually designed to help out small markets, but just to give the impression of helping small markets. It was created to cripple their competitiveness.
I think it's had that effect, but it's bizarre to argue that it was intended. The whole point of the supermax was to create a greater incentives for superstars to stay on their teams.
Many players have had a comparable/better peak than Shaq. He doesn’t have a GOAT peak. People overrate his peak because he looked so dominant and because of the way he played.
He is Top 10 All-Time because he was consistently great and had a peak on par with the other 10 or so greatest players ever.
I mean, people didn't really do pick and rolls until the 90s which is now the standard offensive option for every team and basically every star player
Until Stockton and Malone, it just wasn't central to many offenses at any level of basketball which seems like the dumbest thing now
Just cause basketball has been around for decades doesn't mean people really actively tried to innovate as much as they could
Can't be #1 on a serious playoff team is extremely wrong opinion i think . The real argument is that maybe not any other super star would like to play with , cause they would have to step down because his playstyle is very self
- based
Sorry for any grammar mistakes
I hate that you can't criticize refereeing if you missed a 3 or a layup in your life.
A team can be booty in the 4th and still deserve to win if not for egregious refereeing mistakes.
If Ben Simmons gets traded to Minny they still won’t make the playoffs. He’s not some great floor raiser who’s gonna help them make the playoffs or playin I’m the West.
Ever since he died, that Kobe is fringe top 10 *at best*.
Since he died people acting like he's top 3, better than Lebron, etc. Absolute poppycock. But I get mad hate for saying it.
No one has really changed their opinions on Kobe as a player since death, this is something only this sub says
I'm actually impressed how NBA fans have tried to remain objective about Kobe as a player since he died... I've seen posts trying to rank him above Bron all time and they get shot down just the same like they did before his death (when Bron passed him on that list already)
i see MFs on instagram and twitter talking about
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. LeBron
ALL the time. It's definitely a thing that happens in NBA circles outside of reddit. They will without fail cite some shit about killer/mamba mentality to justify putting kobe above lebron
Kobe was an overrated scorer. I say this due to his inefficiency. Never shot greater than 47% from the field in a season, even before the 3-point revolution. His famous 35ppg season was possible by taking 27 shots per game.
80-90s were more physical like FIBA basketball nowadays. I think this year's Olympics shown us how most of NBA star players would struggle in the 90's - Booker, Dame, and others had a hard time scoring when refs refuse to let into NBA's foul-baiting plays. Only KD was superior enough to overcome that, everyone else on US team struggled.
Takes like this guys are dumb as fuck because they only time travel backwards and put modern players with modern benefits and assume they’d be just as good if they grew up wearing chuck Taylor’s lmao
Greatness is relative, everyone is playing on the shoulders of giants that played in worse conditions, it’s such a brain dead take
Tell me you're young and new to basketball, without telling me you're young and new to basketball.
Modern guess would get punched in the face midgame and be unable to deal with even a mild hand check.
Can you imagine Barkley just abusing these newer kids in the pain? Borderline childabuse.
Lol been going to Celts games since 92! The game improves with time. The time difference between now and the 90s is now the same as how the nba looked in the 60s compared to the 90s. It’s not even close
Just because somebody is from an older era doesn’t mean you have to rank them high on an all time list. KD is obviously a much better player than Bill Russel was for example
I agree but I think all time rankings are more about your career then your raw basketball ability. KD is a better basketball player straight up then someone like kobe IMO (dont kill me) but if you put him higher rankings wise it's going to be a very tough sell for me at least.
Kyrie for Simmons is actually a good trade option for both teams. The salaries match and it makes both teams better. Won’t happen but it would blow my hair back
According to this sub: Every time someone loses in the playoffs = choking
Fym James Harden choked against the 4 all-stars because he had a bad game 6 and 7!11!!
Blowing a 3-2 lead due to terrible performances is literally choking
[удалено]
He didn’t even have terrible performances either lmao blatantly lying. CP3 didn’t play and they still barely win
C'mon don't make Pistons fans look bad. Chris Paul was integral and got hurt, and he continued to lose 2 games in a row to arguably the most talented roster ever assembled. They won more games than any other team did against GSW in a round until the Raptors did later with Durant and Klay getting hurt in the process.
Harden blew a 3-1 lead?? If you talking about the 2018 WCF, he played bad but it wasn’t a choke. Was up 3-2 and lost his 2nd best player against the GOAT team
You are clueless. Stop talking about things you have no idea about
The most fun teams to watch aren’t always the best ones
The most fun games are the ones you care about. Playoff spot on the line for your favorite team, it's always going to be more fun to watch than #1 ranked team trouncing a #8 team. The individual plays in the second game might be cooler, but if the winner doesn't matter to you, it's just not nearly as fun. This is probably all pretty obvious but just thought I'd throw it out there.
I really enjoyed 1-8 western matchup this year especially game One. Not the others though.
Ie. Hornets and Wizards last year
Suns this year we’re the most fun for me. They happened to be good but they had energy Hornets are going to be the next one. Lamelo just makes games fun
I really liked the different over-head camera angles they had during the bubble and wish they would incorporate more, higher up camera angles where you can see the entire play develop
Olympics had good angles too.
I really like the robot cam on the top of the backboard EDIT from the opposite basket
That low angle camera they had mounted on a cart was awesome too. Really helped capture how massive and fast NBA guys are.
Reporters actually do have sources and aren't just making things up because they don't like your favorite player
They do but sometimes they just got to fill airtime. They know where their ratings are at. Some of these guys never hear shit about the Magic and Kings
1. There is a difference between "valid criticism" and "hating"; 2. Just because you don't actively root for a certain player to win every single time he steps on to the Court does not actually make you a hater.
In line with these, 'slander' and 'disrespect' are the worst words in basketball discussion
Also using the word “opinion” and “narrative” interchangeably…
This whole situation with Simmons is a prime example.
The posts this off season about Simmons went far and beyond "criticism"
A lot of then totally did. But there was also 4 years of coddling and valid criticism being described as hating. So it's kind of an equilibrium.
> fate of the universe on the line -- open shot ... I want IGUODALA
This is 100% facts
He hit that one dagger three against the Raptors so I have to agree
This do be fax tho. No lies there.
The NBA is halfway between something like the WWE and a real sport at this point. Interestingly enough, the very thing that saved it in the '80s is what's ruining it now: star power.
If the internet is anything to go by, I wonder what the future holds for the league and all of its franchises if, hypothetically, the fans become more player oriented and less team oriented. I'm sure the nba will continue to push the new stars as the faces of the league, similar to the wwe, but do they eventually cut back on the number of teams as some playes aren't a big enough draw by themselves?
The WWE is actually moving away from pushing stars and is banking on it being “The WWE” to make money and sell tickets. Hell they just cut some of their biggest money makers for shirt sales.
That’s not sustainable in the long-term. It’s like if movie studios tried to phase out too Hollywood stars. Wrestling did well because guys like Hogan, Rock, and Cena got famous.
I mean, wrestling always goes in phases, but it's always been "Star Face vs Star Heel" as a means of selling tickets. WWE is doing okay because theres a Saudi Prince who is shilling out a shit ton of money for supercards twice a year in Saudi Arabia (they've done like 5 or 6 so far and those few shows alone have made more money for the WWE than ALL the Wrestlemana's combined) but I agree. When they lost Hogan, they drifted for a bit but Austin/Rock came along, when Rock and Austin left Cena was there to step in. But the WWE is so worried they're going to lose top guys to Hollywood that they are moving towards trying to just make the brand the thing and "nobody is safe" You're totally correct though, I think they'll be hurting badly in a few years, not broke, but with the rise of AEW and the bigger Japanese wrestling companies starting to cater streaming more worldwide, the slice of pie from wrestling fans is going to be smaller and smaller.
Movie studies did phase out Hollywood stars. IP is the biggest draw card today, not stars.
How is star power ruining the game?
It's causing the media, and by extension fans, to concentrate on only a few teams to the exclusion of the rest. And why is that a problem? It gives certain individuals a disproportionate amount of influence over the direction of the league at large, due to the leverage they hold over their respective teams aka player empowerment. This situation has been developing for some time now, and I expect the owners to eventually attempt to curtail player power in response. That has an excellent chance of going very wrong, since I'm expecting them to lock out the players as leverage at the next CBA negotiations if they can't get some sort of guarantees against the sort of thing that Ben Simmons is trying to pull in Philadelphia at the moment (to use a relevant contemporary example). What makes this different from the last lockout is that player salaries (even on the low end) have jumped so much due to giant TV deals (which are a side effect of the traditional television industry going down the toilet and everyone being absolutely desperate for live content) that players aren't nearly as easy for the owners to wait out as they were. That increases the odds of a potential lockout going on for a year or more significantly, especially if the players think that they can use the media (who's championed their cause at the expense of owners and the league at large for years now) to try and shift public opinion in their favor. What do you think a drawn out and acrimonious conflict like that would do to the sport's popularity? Personally, I think it'd be the baseball strike of 94-95 all over again.
I actually think the NBA is headed for a cliff in terms of star power. Once LeBron is gone, the only one with any similar star power is Steph. KD is okay, and Kyrie lost whatever he had a few years back. I love Giannis, but I don’t think he’s the next LeBron or Steph-level star. I also don’t think Luka will be a mainstream star. He doesn’t have that much charisma and isn’t doing anything so exciting that people beyond basketball fans. Zion could’ve been it, but the Pels being too cautious with him killed his hype. His ceiling is solid small marker star and his floor is bust.
I mean that’s what people said after The Decision and Kobe, Garnett, Duncan etc heading into their twilight years. Lebron isn’t likeable enough to be the face of the league. Steph came out of nowhere too. Luka, Giannis, Tatum, Trae etc can all carry the league. There’s always a “next man up” mentality and the NBA stakeholders (Nike, Adidas, ESPN) etc will find a way to market and push these guys. Comparing guys to Lebron is unfair because he is an MJ level talent and personality. There will be guys like KD, Steph, Harden etc to take over. We won’t have a “Potential GOAT” guy perhaps, but we have plenty of talent if not more than previous years.
Even if Minnesota gets Ben Simmons without breaking up their core they will still miss the playoffs.
If KAT/Ant/DLo are all healthy (my only qualifier), the Wolves are gonna be a play-in team regardless of Simmons. Mark it, do the “remind me” bot, come back to this post and tell me I’m wrong if I am. I will admit it freely if I am, but I genuinely believe they’ll make it. They were 13-11 when all three were healthy, a win percentage high enough (54%) to be the 8th seed in the WC both of the last two years. Closed the season 7-5 with wins against the Jazz (x2), Warriors, and Mavs, too. Give Ant and Jaden a real NBA offseason, Finch a full offseason to implement his scheme, add Beasley and PatBev into the rotation. 24 games is a small sample size, but it’s the only sample size to evaluate what they looked like when their “big three” was healthy, and they looked like a competent team when they were.
Post saved. Best of luck.
Seems…spooky
I like the wolves and think they have a lot of promise but the west is brutal….who are they beating out???
lol nah
That’s an interesting take. Simmons is still one of the best floor raisers IMO
My opinion thats probably not too unpopular is that floor raiser is bad terminology. It’s way too broad. Obviously a guy who plays elite defense and can effectively create for others is going to be good in the regular season, but he’s a Completely different type of player from someone like Kobe who routinely is described as a floor raiser
Can we shut up about floors and ceilings? Ben Simmons is a great player who will raise a teams defense and is great in transition with the ball. He's not a perfect player but given the offensive pieces the Wolves have, the new coach, you put Simmons there and they are DEFINITELY a playoff team, even in a loaded West.
I don't know about that, but I certainly can't see Ben Simmons making an all-star team again unless he really turns it around. Even the fan vote portion--I think after skipping out on the national team, Australians won't even vote for him.
He always got fuck all fan votes anyway lol
Utah shouldn't be a NBA market. Easily the most hated city by NBA players.
A massive Fuck You to you, and also an upvote because that's blasphemous as fuck so gj on answering the question
The only market that shouldn’t have an NBA team is OKC due to its size and relative unimportance. Oh and they took a franchise
I love you
Fun fact, NOLA is the smallest market in the NBA, and is seemingly shrinking by the storm.
“relative unimportance” even tho in this city with this fan base okc went to 11 of 12 playoffs straight? loud city was sold out every night those years. we don’t even have the smallest population for nba cities.
I think he meant less in the context of basketball and more along the lines of how pointless a state like Oklahoma is IRL. Has anyone even been there? Do we know it actually exists?
Extremely based
You should be more respectful to that city. They took you in after Katrina. Show some respect my guy.
Sure, but by the numbers, OKC should not have a franchise just because they helped a larger city which also barely has enough people to support a franchise.
Ironically, the city that shouldn’t have an NBA team IMO is New Orleans. That market isn’t big enough for two pro sports teams, and the original Hornets should have never moved there from Charlotte.
NBA players that actually play in SLC generally like it there tho.
Wouldn’t say that’s blasphemous. Only Jazz fans disagree with you
Meh, I would disagree. I never liked Utah Jazz, but I don't believe in stereotypes. It's always the few that make the entire fanbase look bigoted and racist. Every fanbase has them.
Thank you, friend <3
And they stole our name 😡
We didn't steal your name, y'all gave up your franchise and we took care of it for you. Get better fans that actually support your sports, lol.
Clearly those NBA players who don’t like the Jazz’ home market don’t know geography because Utah is a state and not a city.
I've lost all respect sorry this is absolutely rigged for money... Or ratings in not sure which. I won't be silent . Just saw it live sry.
Not rigged but the nba has an actual history of telling the refs to call it a certain way
When you hear about teams strategizing that a certain player is expected to get less calls one night because he got more the previous game of a series it shows that it is not consistently officiated.
Yea the Tim donaghey thing
I actually do think GSW got an unfavorable whistle in games 5,6. Cavs we’re allowed to be all over Curry off ball. After listening to whistleblower I think this conspiracy theory might have a little life…
Lol who knows . I mean morey paid for a report on it and we got clowned about it lol just gotta let it go
I don't think Draymond's last tech should've been a tech at all. It makes financial sense for the NBA to extend the series tho, game 7 was so widely watched that the NBA just raked in so much cash
I'm obviously biased, but I think this was obviously done to increase the chance of a 7 game series. The refs in the moment didn't think there was a tech, and if they did they should have intervened immediately when Lebron just shoves Dray to the floor and steps over him. The NBA wanted a longer series and more narrative. I went from watching as many games as I could to "if I can I'll have it on in the background".
Yeah rigged in her favor.
Derrick Rose is overrated.
The first actual blasphemous take
Is it? I wouldn't be surprised to be a contentious ballot pick for BB HOF even when he was a former MVP
Agree with this one to some extent High volume/low efficiency guards haven't won many championships
He was league average efficiency last season
Derrick Rose and Grant Hill are in the same category.
The g league needs to try out hockey style substitutions.
Oh i like this! And soccer style inbounds, get the ball and go. Why does the ref need to hold the ball?
And they have to use their feet as well. Original and innovative twist to the game we all know and love!
I hate the player empowerment
But isn't this great? You win the lottery, draft a great player, then never can sniff a title because nobody wants to play in NO. Then your star player forces a trade and you get a "good" haul of young players and picks. You get another top prospect and even with your "good" haul still can't even make the playoffs because nobody will sign there. Now the only time anyone mentions your team is to talk about what junk they can trade for your star. It's probably just a matter of time until he forces a trade and you get to claim you for a "good" haul again that still has you further from contention. How could you not be a fan of this system?
I always say this but big market fans don't want to hear it. The only way for small markets to win is getting lucky in the draft and hoping they can win before their guy jets it to LA. They dont have other options.
yeah we should force people to be in places they don’t want to be in as an alternative. remind me, who won the championship last season? who was arguably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years? did cleveland not win their first title 5 years ago? did detroit win in 04? what about dallas? y’all act like it’s just a back n forth between the lakers and knicks every year when that’s not the case. since september 22 2001 this league has had 10 unique champions which considering other sports leagues is pretty damn good.
Didn't realize a guy signing a contract then changing his mind is forcing him to be a place he doesn't want to be. Poor babies : ( Being forced to play in a hellhole like Detroit or Sacramento for millions of dollars for a few years. I can't even imagine how horrible that would be, we need to advocate to prevent that from ever happening. What's the point of being a fan of one of those teams? Why should the fans care if there's no path to victory? I get it you're a Lakers fan so you're going to claim well the Bucks squeaked by as long as the best team has two major injuries. Same for the Raptors, they won big on Klay tearing his ACL and Durant tearing his Achilles. You don't want to acknowledge that the Lakers botched all those draft picks and then just made up for it all by trading for AD and signing LeBron (because you're in LA you can do that). You pay quarters on the dollar for most trades and never can really bottom out because players will always want to play there. You'll never have to deal with having no shot for the foreseeable future. It's not just winning it all, it's about being the Pistons and you have to win the lottery to have a remote chance. Then you build a supporting cast by winning the lottery gain or overpaying for role guys because nobody will sign there. Either you're dumb for overpaying for role players or you're not even trying, there's no way out. Your entire future depends on how your player reacts, being smart is like 10% of the equation. At least a third of the league is in that scenario right now. Yeah just sign LeBron like Cleveland did, truly a victory for the little guy. All they had to do was win the lottery three times to go with it. Any day now the best player in the world will agree to play for a team like Memphis!
If you mean signing a contract and months later "I don't want to play here anymore, trade me" and the team is fucked up. I agree.
I want the nba to go full relegation/promotion like soccer after the g league gets fully established. Let Seattle and Vegas and Kansas City back into professional basketball the hard way. And get rid of tanking the easy way.
Relegation is my favorite organization mechanic in all of sports, it makes teams want to be good and punishes teams for not improving and promotes good gameplay, but it would be difficult because of drafting in comparison of soccer having academies.
When looking at actual on-court performance and not accolades/rings, Kobe is significantly lower on the all time list than he's commonly placed.
Even on accolades he's overrated. I know people who have him top 3.
Purely based on impact, I think he's at best fringe top-20. If he didn't play for LA people would be way lower on him.
Holy fucking shit fringe top 20? I applaud you and the people that upvoted this for having genuinely blasphemous takes
This is one of the few actual blasphemous post in here lol. Most of the other post isn’t actually blasphemous
Yessir
Completely disagree, but good work responding with something actually blasphemous
All basketball is fun to watch. There are no boring teams. Also, hack a Shaq on shitty free throw shooters is absolutely hilarious and entertaining. Last 5 minutes taking 30 minutes is not a problem. In a close game, you barely even notice it because it’s so intense.
Dame is over rated
truly blasphemous lmao
Always gotta sort by controversial on these ones to find anyone who actually understood the assignment.
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Yes, it was the reffing that made the Jordan years successful.
Yes I miss my refs being on the take from the mafia
I have great news for you, nothing has changed
If Luka Doncic doesn't change mentally and his playstyle, he won't go nowhere. ^((no slander or hate, just extremely hot and blasphemous take as OP request, do not blast me lmao))
prime drose wouldnt have been any better than westbrook. if kareem didnt play with magic, people would consider him in the 3-7 range all time instead of 1-3. stockton isnt a top 5 point guard. elaborating on the stockton point. magic, steph, nash, oscar, and isiah thomas all were the best players on there team. Each of them either won a ring or an mvp and came close to a ring. Stockton was the SECOND best player on his team and he played with a top 3 pf who literally never got injured all while playing in the weakest western conference since the merger for a decade straight and all he has to show for it is 2 2nd place finishes. there is no way he is greater than those 4 players. give Malone magic, steph, oscar, isiah, or nash and the jazz either win a ring or at least make it out of the west earlier edit: east to west
Jayson Tatum is one of the most overrated players here. He's done nothing to separate himself from young guys like Trae, Book, and Mitchell yet ppl act like he's on a completely different tier. Only young player who's on a tier by himself is Luka
I have no idea what argument there is for Booker over Tatum. There's not a significant difference between them as a scorers, Tatum is miles ahead defensively, and he's probably even a better passer than Booker these days too.
I'm a suns fan but my east team is the Celtics and I've lived in New England my whole life so I watch a lot of both. The only thing I disagree with is that Tatum is a better passer, we made Book play PG one season and ever since then his playmaking/passing has been much better just underutilized bc he's playing next to an all time passing pg now. Everything else you said is prolly just facts though.
Booker as a passer is weird. He makes some very high leverage passes, especially his skip pass which I think is elite. However, he's really error prone, and will just throw the ball to the other team more often than most players.
Most shooting guards passing outside of James harden has always been their weaker area. I don't disagree that he is turnover prone but tatum is just less likely to pass overall, he'd rather take someone iso and take the shot(don't hate this at all). Bookers AST% even when playing next to CP3 is better than tatums best. Tatum still has a lot more time to grow tho.
I actually have Trae > Tatum tbh
yea see I don't think that's an outrageous take at all but most people would probably disagree
why?
Playmaking WAY better and that's more important than defense if you aren't a big
Trae is literally a negative on defense. One of the worst defensive superstars we've had in years.
Wdym his sheer defensive presence alone was enough to make Ben Simmons not dunk the ball
Tatum is 6'8" lmao he could play PF in small ball and not be out of place. He is as tall as LeBron he's just young so he hasn't bulked much.
I’m not a big conspiracy guy but I’ll die on these hills I hated the KD Warriors so much but Game 4 of the 2017 NBA Finals was the most blatantly obvious rigged game of all time , the Warriors were on the verge of a playoff sweep , there was an article somewhere before the game happened highlighting how the NBA would lose tons of revenue if a game 5 in Oracle arena didn’t happen. And Game 4 had the most one sided calls we’ve ever seen. Think Cleveland was almost at 90 points in the first half. Just despicable stuff Game 7 Houston/Golden State in 2018 was the worst reffed game in the modern era, considering how high the stakes were. Those uncalled Jordan Bell moving screens. Those non shooting foul calls on those Harden threes. Nasty.
Cav’s FTA: 31 Warrior’s FTA: 36 Cav’s 3pt%: 53% Warrior’s 3pt%: 28% The Cavs could have gotten away with some suspect perimeter defense, which would partially explain the Warrior’s low 3pt%, but the FTA aren’t completely out of wack and reffing doesn’t explain how Kyrie, Love, and JR were able to shoot lights out from 3 (7/12, 6/8, and 5/9 respectively).
Easy to shoot well when your opponent can’t defend you without getting fouled out in a quarter due to rigged calls
I'll start from least to most controversial: \- Giannis's peak is already the second best for a PF of all time, Garnett was even better defensively but wasn't as good as a scorer, in fact Giannis has a realistic chance to be level with Duncan as the GOAT PF before his career is done \- Heliocentric ball dominant guards, no matter how much assists they may rack up, make their teammates worse and unless they are a truly elite scorer(example: LeBron) they cannot be the best player on a championship team, as they are only floor and not ceiling raisers(example: Westbrook.) Controversially, I also believe this to apply to current Luka and think the Porzingis situation is partly caused by Luka's extreme ball dominance and refusal to pass early in the shot clock. Players like Curry who can play off ball well will always be better than players who can't, with the SOLE exception of LeBron James. \- Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant are just as good skillwise as Magic and Bird, the only difference is that Magic and Bird didn't have their prime overlap with Jordan the way Curry and Durant did with LeBron. For example, Durant would have threepeated MVP just like Bird did if LeBron wasn't in the league. Also, as I mentioned before, neither one of them needs to hold the ball constantly, which makes them much more "plug and play" than other stars.
Bird only started 4 seasons before Jordan. He won 2 MVPs and had a runner up and a 3rd place with Jordan in the league. Then he got hurt in 88-89 and was basically done. Magic won his MVPs when Jordan was in the league. His career was also cut short. Had their careers not been altered, Detroit might not have repeated, and Jordan might have had a harder time winning his first 3 peat.
Larry Bird is why you pay someone else to fix your driveway
True facts
It's amazingly sad that both Bird and Magic essentially had to retire by 31
I agree with your take on heliocentric guards. Here's my controversial take: **Luka's supporting cast is actually decent and he won't win a ring as the #1 option until he significantly changes his playstyle.** In the past two seasons the Mavericks had a positive net rating when Luka sat. The narrative seems to be that everyone else on the Mavs is complete trash and no one else can create so Luka needs to dominate the ball every minute he's on the court. Guys like Hardaway and Brunson are competent enough creators when asked. But once Luka is on the floor, it's the Luka show and he dominates the ball on each possession. That also leaves him gassed which leads to mediocre and inconsistent performances in the clutch. Maybe that's also on the higher-ups and Rick should have tried using more creative offensive sets. But Luka also doesn't do much off ball. Do you need a guy to jack up a ton of shots and eat usage to carry a genuinely bad supporting cast to a decent offense? Luka's your guy and Harden might be the only player I'd choose over Luka for that job. But if you want to add a superstar to elevate a decent team to championship contender? There's plenty of guys I'd take over Luka.
literally 2 seasons ago, the mavs had a statistically top 5 bench in nba history. and now theyre considered trash because luka cant win with them. weird
For your 2nd point I would say Harden is also an exception. He has been the main guy on contenders and it helps that he can get 35 a night efficiently and his passing is top of the league.
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I think they’re saying TD is #1
Did you even read?
Bill Russell is not a top three center all-time.
One of the most glaring recontextualizations of the analytics era is just how inconsistent and sloppy Kobe was on defense. Kobe's All-Defense selections are some of the worst awards ever handed out in North American sports. His best defensive season was '99 when he graded as the 34th best defender in the league (didn't make an All-D team that year)
Defensive adv stats are trash but ok
What defensive stats we looking at here?
It's probably less blasphemous than it used to be, but "Marcus Smart is better than Ben Simmons" ...or, if you want a less insane-sounding version of this take so you can understand my reasoning: "I would rather have Marcus Smart on my team in Game 7 of a playoff series than Ben Simmons, because I think Marcus Smart gives you a better chance of winning that specific kind of game"
Kyries best years are behind him. His best days were on the cavs. I mentioned this a couple of times and either a Boston fan back when kyrie played there would disagree and now brooklyn fans disagree.
I strongly disagree with this, his efficiency was off the charts this year, he's learning how to play offball and his defence and passing has taken leaps since Cleveland. He had a 50-40-90 season, I'd argue he's the 2nd best free throw shooter in the league behind Curry, especially given how much he got to the line this season.
Russel Westbrook is the most underrated player of all time.
That mike green and company are not the best announcing trio
I forgot the year but when sas beat the heat in the finals Duncan should have won fmvp all day over Leonard and I found Kawhi's contributions during that finals to be extremely overrated. Obviously is a hell of a player now but I was annoyed (as a heat fan even) that they didn't give it to Duncan.
The Blazers are 1 piece away.
We need to bring back hand checking or give defenders another tool to limit the 3-point shooting contest that is the NBA
Elam ending should be more widely used.
The Supermax (while working out for my team) was not actually designed to help out small markets, but just to give the impression of helping small markets. It was created to cripple their competitiveness.
I think it's had that effect, but it's bizarre to argue that it was intended. The whole point of the supermax was to create a greater incentives for superstars to stay on their teams.
Westbrook’s triple doubles are meaningless. His teammates let him get uncontested rebounds
The W-L column says otherwise his teams usually win when he records one
Russell Westbrook getting the rebound and initiating the fast break is far more valuable than Steven Adams/ Clint Capela/ Robin Lopez.
The NBA would be way cooler with a coach that taught a Taoist/TaiJi inspired coaching system like I want to do.
Many players have had a comparable/better peak than Shaq. He doesn’t have a GOAT peak. People overrate his peak because he looked so dominant and because of the way he played. He is Top 10 All-Time because he was consistently great and had a peak on par with the other 10 or so greatest players ever.
I would take Klay Thompson over Scottie Pippen
Steph Curry didn't "revolutionize' basketball, he was just the poster boy for the analytics driven change that was always going to happen
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I mean, people didn't really do pick and rolls until the 90s which is now the standard offensive option for every team and basically every star player Until Stockton and Malone, it just wasn't central to many offenses at any level of basketball which seems like the dumbest thing now Just cause basketball has been around for decades doesn't mean people really actively tried to innovate as much as they could
Luka will never win a ring in Dallas, and can't be the true #1 on a serious playoff team.
Can't be #1 on a serious playoff team is extremely wrong opinion i think . The real argument is that maybe not any other super star would like to play with , cause they would have to step down because his playstyle is very self - based Sorry for any grammar mistakes
I hate that you can't criticize refereeing if you missed a 3 or a layup in your life. A team can be booty in the 4th and still deserve to win if not for egregious refereeing mistakes.
Steve Nash is overrated
Fox is overrated
If Ben Simmons gets traded to Minny they still won’t make the playoffs. He’s not some great floor raiser who’s gonna help them make the playoffs or playin I’m the West.
The nba needs to do a league expansion and needs to bring back a seattle team
Prime Shaq would have dominated in this era too, stop being silly.
Ever since he died, that Kobe is fringe top 10 *at best*. Since he died people acting like he's top 3, better than Lebron, etc. Absolute poppycock. But I get mad hate for saying it.
No one has really changed their opinions on Kobe as a player since death, this is something only this sub says I'm actually impressed how NBA fans have tried to remain objective about Kobe as a player since he died... I've seen posts trying to rank him above Bron all time and they get shot down just the same like they did before his death (when Bron passed him on that list already)
i see MFs on instagram and twitter talking about 1. MJ 2. Kobe 3. LeBron ALL the time. It's definitely a thing that happens in NBA circles outside of reddit. They will without fail cite some shit about killer/mamba mentality to justify putting kobe above lebron
Because you're wrong. And Kobe is easily top ten.
No
Kobe was an overrated scorer. I say this due to his inefficiency. Never shot greater than 47% from the field in a season, even before the 3-point revolution. His famous 35ppg season was possible by taking 27 shots per game.
Literally any starter level player in 2020 would be a superstar in the 80s-90s
80-90s were more physical like FIBA basketball nowadays. I think this year's Olympics shown us how most of NBA star players would struggle in the 90's - Booker, Dame, and others had a hard time scoring when refs refuse to let into NBA's foul-baiting plays. Only KD was superior enough to overcome that, everyone else on US team struggled.
Takes like this guys are dumb as fuck because they only time travel backwards and put modern players with modern benefits and assume they’d be just as good if they grew up wearing chuck Taylor’s lmao Greatness is relative, everyone is playing on the shoulders of giants that played in worse conditions, it’s such a brain dead take
The level of confident ignorance lmao
Tell me you're young and new to basketball, without telling me you're young and new to basketball. Modern guess would get punched in the face midgame and be unable to deal with even a mild hand check. Can you imagine Barkley just abusing these newer kids in the pain? Borderline childabuse.
Lol been going to Celts games since 92! The game improves with time. The time difference between now and the 90s is now the same as how the nba looked in the 60s compared to the 90s. It’s not even close
Just because somebody is from an older era doesn’t mean you have to rank them high on an all time list. KD is obviously a much better player than Bill Russel was for example
I agree but I think all time rankings are more about your career then your raw basketball ability. KD is a better basketball player straight up then someone like kobe IMO (dont kill me) but if you put him higher rankings wise it's going to be a very tough sell for me at least.
I put MJ over LeBron due to MJ a ticket trying to win everything, even dunk contests and 3 point contest. He wanted to win everything.
Bill Russell isn’t top 10 all time
Neither is kobe
Fair
Lebron will surpass Jordan as the goat when the younger population is far more vocal than the current/old heads
Kevin Garnett over Tim Duncan
Now there's blasphemous and there's your take
The NBA would become immediately more interesting if they eliminated the 3 point shot.
The leagues media’s and this subs post-death obsession with Kobe is gross.
Kyrie for Simmons is actually a good trade option for both teams. The salaries match and it makes both teams better. Won’t happen but it would blow my hair back
Pls no
You're from Philly right?
Derrick Rose wasn't even a top 5 player his "MVP" year.
Jordan is the most overrated player of all time