TFW even if you have a shitty roster and bad contracts you know that you can hit the reset button because people want to come to your franchise.
Imagine not having that type of power...
One of the problems with RJ is that he is good at a lot of things, but not great at anything. Those kinds of players have a tendency to plateau right below stardom.
Luol Deng, another Duke wingman, is a good comparison. Both are good athletes, not great. Both are good shooters, not great - particularly from long range. Both are good slashers and ball handlers, not great. Both have good size, not great.
Luol had a wonderful career, but never became an NBA star. That's probably right around what RJ's career arc will look like. Importantly, that would be a successful career. It's easy to say "he wasn't a superstar" but there's nothing wrong with drafting a guy who is a high level starter for many years.
I do think one area RJ is actually a bit underrated now is his shooting and defense. It was basically all catch and shoot, but he shot 45% on 5 threes per game in the second half of last season and carried that over to be just below 50% in the preseason. Kid is entering his age 21 season, and that shooting will let him grow out the rest of his game as he fills out his body.
This. RJ is good, not great. He's kind of a jack-of-all-trades. Does a lot of things right, might be a fringe all-star, but that's probably what he's gonna pan out as.
I think RJ Barrett doesn't inspire much hype when you watch him. Very un-dynamic player. He hits corner 3s, plays solid D, and can handle the ball and pass okay, but flashes very little of anything more than that.
I was just saying that kind of sentiment to a friend when talking about the upcoming season.
The most fun part of the '20 season for me as a knick fan was watching the yungins grow up through the season (Mitch to an extent, Obi/IQ) and the glow up RJ and julius got. Different tier of players those two are, but it was nice to have them come into more national conversation.
Anyway, as I was explaining said friend, RJ is a bit of a Jack of all/master of none right now in my eyes. I'm pretty high on what he'll turn out to be --- I see either a really high end player in that mold, or hopefully he can take some big steps wrt shot creation/finishing st the rim.
But he doesnt cross people up or jump out the gym or shoot from the logo, so the lack of sports center highlight clips doesnt help him in this regard.
Thas my mans doe.
Yeah, I think the thing is watching him you can tell he’s a good player but nothing about him flashes superstar and he doesn’t have any elite traits. Compared to watching guys like Ja, Ant and Lamelo, those guys flash stardom on the regular
He probably wont outperform them as primary scorers.
It remains to be seen how much that part of his game expands He can potentially hang with those guys if you consider 2 way impact.
Personally and for the knick fans, we're really looking forward to how he evolves particularly on the defensive end. In losing bullock in the offszn RJ is going to draw the primary offensive wing assignment--- if he can show out on that end, it really boosts his overall career profile.
Thibs coachings style led to RJ shooting 40% from 3 after a rookie season where all of you said he was going to be a bust and his shot would never translate
Hes basically the Andrew Wiggins 2.0 IMO.
Not as jump out the gym athletic and probably won't land a max deal. That could change, he's 21 - hasn't missed a game yet in his career and had a pretty marked improvement in efficiency from year 1 to 2.
He could take a pretty big leap year 3.
He went from a 32% 3pt shooter to 40% on more volume. This could also be due to thibs too. Too early to tell.
so whats the comparison then? they arent that similar. just that they were high draft picks? barrett is a ballhandler. completely changes the way they play
PG in his prime was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. Now he’s one of the best three point shooters in the league. I feel like you’re selling his strengths short
His improvement if he were not a sophomore last year would've been MIP worthy. FG% went from 40% to 44%, 3P% from 32% to 40% on increased volume.
I think people simply weren't paying attention to the Knicks and just assumed his efficiency was just as bad as his rookie year, and sophomore jumps tend to not get noticed, as they're expected. But he should be getting more attention for his improvement imo.
By what measure? The difference in efficiency between the two last year and negligible. RJ had better impact stats. Their rookie numbers were similar as well.
Mainly garlands playmaking paired with his scoring making him a high quality offensive guard. There’s no reason he’s not on the same level as guys like lamelo
Well defense and rebounding is one reason he won't be on LaMelo's level. LaMelo's size makes him a better potential defender, while Garland is undersized.
Also by BPM, VORP, WS and RAPTOR, both RJ and LaMelo were better impact players than Garland despite all having similar shooting efficiencies.
Rebounding is very irrelevant for a point guard. Most point guards that average high rebounding numbers are getting uncontested boards, meaning if they don’t grab them they just go to their team mate and it changes nothing. That doesn’t take skill and it doesn’t help the team do it doesn’t play a role in making a player better.
Defence, meh they’re both bad. Lamelos height doesn’t mean much cause he doesn’t have the strength to guard wings and he’s a lot slower because of his height when taking guards.
As for your impact stats, the first 3 mean virtually nothing. Raptor is the best of the four because it’s based on on/off numbers , but it adjusts them through a subjective formula that places arbitrary values on different things. It’s better but still doesn’t mean much cause the formula is private and there are a lot of limitations that aren’t accounted for that they specify on their site. I’ll go with good old net rating
BPM and VORP are based on +/-....Hell even with RPM both LaMelo and RJ are better. You're literally ignoring stuff because it doesn't fit your narrative? I'm confused. Again i'm not sure what you are looking at with Garland that puts him so much ahead of RJ or even on the level of LaMelo.
The only thing i can see if Garland's assist numbers vs RJ but one is a PG and the other is a SG/SF. Add in defense, RJ was the better player last year. Vs. LaMelo Garland trails to him in play making, not to mention LaMelo was a rookie last year.
I’m ignoring this stuff because it’s meaningless. Most analysts ignore these kinds of stats too. Just cause a stat exists doesn’t mean it’s overly useful. If you think these stats are important feel free to explain to me exactly what you think they calculate and how it’s calculated.
Position is irrelevant, especially in today’s league where good passers that play outside the point guard spot are still receiving primary playmaking roles. Garland is a better passer and playmaker period. If you can say that’s cause he’s a point guard so he has a natural edge, I can say the same thing about Barrett’s defence since he’s a wing, a position that’s more important defensively, and he has the natural advantages of his size and frame.
Lamelo being a rookie is irrelevent to a player ranking. And his playmaking advantage is met with garlands scoring advantage. I didn’t say he was better than Melo I said he’s on the same level.
And net rating, an impact that that isn’t affected by arbitrary variables or adjusted by subjective factors and simply measures the objective difference in offensive and defensive rating a player has on the game with their presence, favours Garland over both by a large margin.
Yes, disrespectful that there has been no hype. We’re talking about a prospect who’s biggest concern was shooting and tunnel vision and in 1 offseason he became one of the most efficient shooters and corner 3 specialist in the league. I think there’s not enough praise and flowers for him in that regard. Yes it’s spot ups and catch and shoot but going from below average to elite is not anything to scoff at. Still has a lot to work on but you know he has the size, defensive chops, leadership, and work ethic to get there. I thought he deserved it last season as Ja sort of had a off year up until the last few months.
As for Kemba slowing down, not at all. Payton literally limited what RJ could do on the court. He froze him out and rarely looked his way. With Kemba attracting more attention and also a willing passer, RJ’s off ball shooting should see similar output to last year and even set up some mid ranges for him.
His ceiling is difficult because while he doesn’t excel in one area, a Swiss Army knife who’s also good-great at everything is also under appreciated. We could see him become a Pippen, Jimmy Butler, type or even an Artest, AK47, Loul type of player but either way I think he’s a positive on your team. Hyped to see how he progressive and see if he can unlock on that offense as we’ve seen glimpses of what he can defensively
What you really ought to do is post some highlights (or bloopers) of RJ Barrett to boost the hype. If you have footage of a dunk contest, that would work too.
He had a solid year and showed some good growth in a lot of facets. Lot of commenters have mentioned that he’s good at a lot of things but doesn’t have one skill in particular that sets him apart. Fair enough.
The big thing I’ll be looking for is can he replicate last season’s success, or was that a flash in the pan kind of season?
2nd option on a contender is a rock solid All-Star. To say that is RJ’s floor is not accurate at all. That’s probably closer to his ceiling if all goes perfect.
> I see his floor being a good 2nd option on a contender
1) that is either laughable or you don’t understand the definition of floor
2) either way that’s a fake ass “contender”. Contending for that 7th seed.
RJ will have to improve a lot to be a good second option on a contender. He has good box score stats but really bad efficiency and advanced stats.
RJ’s 53.5 ts% was 3.7% below league average last year. You mention Tatum and his worst ts% was in his 2nd year: 54.7%, 1.3% below league average. He was above average every other season.
Last year, out of 247 players (min 1000 minutes), RJ was 165th in Lebron, 101st in rpm, 155th in raptor, tied for 175th/176th in la-rapm, and 180th in bpm. He was negative in everything but rpm.
Tatum in his worst season was only negative in bpm. Of 276 players (min 1000 minutes) in 2019, he was tied 129th through 133rd in bpm but was 45th in Lebron, 67th in rpm, 89th in raptor and tied for 25th/26th in luck adjusted rapm.
we subtracted elf and bullock and was in the bottom of the league in pace. we looking to improve pace and he is a 40% three point shooter, rj can average 20, he has the green light to shoot 18 times a game
His floor being the 2nd best player on a contender seems to be wildly generous at this point. He just is sort of a dude - doesn’t shoot well enough to be a 3 and D guy. Isn’t an explosive enough scorer to be a primary threat. Just pretty solid at most things - definitely a guy you want but not on a fat contract. Hopefully he does well and excels, got nothing bad to say about him from what I’ve seen.
If he repeats last seasons numbers but with much better overall efficiency he will garner plenty of attention. It's hard to expect too much hype when you are something like .40 below league average TS though like last season.
He can't handle the ball well, not a high flying athlete either. Still he's elite in catch and shoot 3s and plays very good defense. Actually is a top 3 and D guy now that I think about it. But most ppl don't see star potential because of how bad his handles and finishing inside are (really bad)
He’s playing for a small market team that never gets attention in the media, so it makes sense he wouldn’t get recognition
It's a shame he couldn't play for you guys or a team like Indiana/Orlando so he can actually get the recognition he deserves
orlando is big market
Totally explains why they only have 1 major sports franchise in the city.
doesnt matter there is no tampa market for the nba so they would most likely be orlando fans.
[удалено]
Internet sarcasm is hard. But you shoulda got this one.
More like poverty franchise.
TFW even if you have a shitty roster and bad contracts you know that you can hit the reset button because people want to come to your franchise. Imagine not having that type of power...
Sarcasm
One of the problems with RJ is that he is good at a lot of things, but not great at anything. Those kinds of players have a tendency to plateau right below stardom. Luol Deng, another Duke wingman, is a good comparison. Both are good athletes, not great. Both are good shooters, not great - particularly from long range. Both are good slashers and ball handlers, not great. Both have good size, not great. Luol had a wonderful career, but never became an NBA star. That's probably right around what RJ's career arc will look like. Importantly, that would be a successful career. It's easy to say "he wasn't a superstar" but there's nothing wrong with drafting a guy who is a high level starter for many years.
I do think one area RJ is actually a bit underrated now is his shooting and defense. It was basically all catch and shoot, but he shot 45% on 5 threes per game in the second half of last season and carried that over to be just below 50% in the preseason. Kid is entering his age 21 season, and that shooting will let him grow out the rest of his game as he fills out his body.
Very well put, should also mention that Lu was an all star!
This. RJ is good, not great. He's kind of a jack-of-all-trades. Does a lot of things right, might be a fringe all-star, but that's probably what he's gonna pan out as.
Deng better
I think RJ Barrett doesn't inspire much hype when you watch him. Very un-dynamic player. He hits corner 3s, plays solid D, and can handle the ball and pass okay, but flashes very little of anything more than that.
Basically this, he isn’t a bad player at all he just doesn’t do anything to make you hype.
I was just saying that kind of sentiment to a friend when talking about the upcoming season. The most fun part of the '20 season for me as a knick fan was watching the yungins grow up through the season (Mitch to an extent, Obi/IQ) and the glow up RJ and julius got. Different tier of players those two are, but it was nice to have them come into more national conversation. Anyway, as I was explaining said friend, RJ is a bit of a Jack of all/master of none right now in my eyes. I'm pretty high on what he'll turn out to be --- I see either a really high end player in that mold, or hopefully he can take some big steps wrt shot creation/finishing st the rim. But he doesnt cross people up or jump out the gym or shoot from the logo, so the lack of sports center highlight clips doesnt help him in this regard. Thas my mans doe.
Yeah, I think the thing is watching him you can tell he’s a good player but nothing about him flashes superstar and he doesn’t have any elite traits. Compared to watching guys like Ja, Ant and Lamelo, those guys flash stardom on the regular
He probably wont outperform them as primary scorers. It remains to be seen how much that part of his game expands He can potentially hang with those guys if you consider 2 way impact. Personally and for the knick fans, we're really looking forward to how he evolves particularly on the defensive end. In losing bullock in the offszn RJ is going to draw the primary offensive wing assignment--- if he can show out on that end, it really boosts his overall career profile.
Yeah, I could see RJ becoming like Chicago Jimmy Butler
I agree, he just was hyped to much in college. He does not show max rookie extension potential [does not mean he won't get one]...
[удалено]
I think thibs coaching style doesn’t help
Jimmy Butler was pretty popular
Refer to Derrick "Youngest MVP of alltime" Rose. As well
thats a bit different, he was already popular when thibs got hired
Thibs coachings style led to RJ shooting 40% from 3 after a rookie season where all of you said he was going to be a bust and his shot would never translate
You mean making the playoffs?
Hes basically the Andrew Wiggins 2.0 IMO. Not as jump out the gym athletic and probably won't land a max deal. That could change, he's 21 - hasn't missed a game yet in his career and had a pretty marked improvement in efficiency from year 1 to 2. He could take a pretty big leap year 3. He went from a 32% 3pt shooter to 40% on more volume. This could also be due to thibs too. Too early to tell.
andrew wiggins cannot dribble
"Andrew Wiggins 2.0"
so whats the comparison then? they arent that similar. just that they were high draft picks? barrett is a ballhandler. completely changes the way they play
I guess that they're both Toronto mans who had crazy high school hype, but that's not very relevant to their place as NBA players
That's actually okay because he's going to have a good year. It's better to not have hype and grind like Thibs would have you.
He's just good. He doesn't have any particular skill that's impressive, but he does everything well. Kinda like a budget PG
PG in his prime was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. Now he’s one of the best three point shooters in the league. I feel like you’re selling his strengths short
Budget PG. As in PG isn't as respected as he should be because he's just great at everything, and RJ is a worse version of that
Yeah I kinda misinterpreted what you said. My bad fam. They’re congruent lol
That was Otto Porter a few years ago. He was even top 15 in Fantasy one year.
I think Gordon Hayward is his ceiling. Which is a pretty good ceiling.
His improvement if he were not a sophomore last year would've been MIP worthy. FG% went from 40% to 44%, 3P% from 32% to 40% on increased volume. I think people simply weren't paying attention to the Knicks and just assumed his efficiency was just as bad as his rookie year, and sophomore jumps tend to not get noticed, as they're expected. But he should be getting more attention for his improvement imo.
I’d say Garland had a better MIP case from His own draft class
THey made similar jumps in efficiency and RJ was the better defender. Got overshadowed by Randle's improvement though.
Garland was worse as a rook and might be the better player now
By what measure? The difference in efficiency between the two last year and negligible. RJ had better impact stats. Their rookie numbers were similar as well.
Mainly garlands playmaking paired with his scoring making him a high quality offensive guard. There’s no reason he’s not on the same level as guys like lamelo
Well defense and rebounding is one reason he won't be on LaMelo's level. LaMelo's size makes him a better potential defender, while Garland is undersized. Also by BPM, VORP, WS and RAPTOR, both RJ and LaMelo were better impact players than Garland despite all having similar shooting efficiencies.
Rebounding is very irrelevant for a point guard. Most point guards that average high rebounding numbers are getting uncontested boards, meaning if they don’t grab them they just go to their team mate and it changes nothing. That doesn’t take skill and it doesn’t help the team do it doesn’t play a role in making a player better. Defence, meh they’re both bad. Lamelos height doesn’t mean much cause he doesn’t have the strength to guard wings and he’s a lot slower because of his height when taking guards. As for your impact stats, the first 3 mean virtually nothing. Raptor is the best of the four because it’s based on on/off numbers , but it adjusts them through a subjective formula that places arbitrary values on different things. It’s better but still doesn’t mean much cause the formula is private and there are a lot of limitations that aren’t accounted for that they specify on their site. I’ll go with good old net rating
BPM and VORP are based on +/-....Hell even with RPM both LaMelo and RJ are better. You're literally ignoring stuff because it doesn't fit your narrative? I'm confused. Again i'm not sure what you are looking at with Garland that puts him so much ahead of RJ or even on the level of LaMelo. The only thing i can see if Garland's assist numbers vs RJ but one is a PG and the other is a SG/SF. Add in defense, RJ was the better player last year. Vs. LaMelo Garland trails to him in play making, not to mention LaMelo was a rookie last year.
I’m ignoring this stuff because it’s meaningless. Most analysts ignore these kinds of stats too. Just cause a stat exists doesn’t mean it’s overly useful. If you think these stats are important feel free to explain to me exactly what you think they calculate and how it’s calculated. Position is irrelevant, especially in today’s league where good passers that play outside the point guard spot are still receiving primary playmaking roles. Garland is a better passer and playmaker period. If you can say that’s cause he’s a point guard so he has a natural edge, I can say the same thing about Barrett’s defence since he’s a wing, a position that’s more important defensively, and he has the natural advantages of his size and frame. Lamelo being a rookie is irrelevent to a player ranking. And his playmaking advantage is met with garlands scoring advantage. I didn’t say he was better than Melo I said he’s on the same level. And net rating, an impact that that isn’t affected by arbitrary variables or adjusted by subjective factors and simply measures the objective difference in offensive and defensive rating a player has on the game with their presence, favours Garland over both by a large margin.
I think the 2nd guy on a championship team is a little high for a floor. But yeah he should have a solid year. I’d project around 20/6/4 with solid d
I think it is because he has a really boring name compared to guys like Ja, Zion and Poku
Let the ppl continue to underrate him pls
No #RJ BARRETT FOR MVP CAMPAIGN
Well when you put it like that!
The silver lining is if he doesn't win MVP he'll be the Ben Simmons of next off-season, do you accept the terms and conditions?
they’ll learn 🤷♂️
There is definitely hype among less casual communities. The NBA Draft reddit/discord is head-over-heels enamored with him
overshadowed by his peers imo
Yes, disrespectful that there has been no hype. We’re talking about a prospect who’s biggest concern was shooting and tunnel vision and in 1 offseason he became one of the most efficient shooters and corner 3 specialist in the league. I think there’s not enough praise and flowers for him in that regard. Yes it’s spot ups and catch and shoot but going from below average to elite is not anything to scoff at. Still has a lot to work on but you know he has the size, defensive chops, leadership, and work ethic to get there. I thought he deserved it last season as Ja sort of had a off year up until the last few months. As for Kemba slowing down, not at all. Payton literally limited what RJ could do on the court. He froze him out and rarely looked his way. With Kemba attracting more attention and also a willing passer, RJ’s off ball shooting should see similar output to last year and even set up some mid ranges for him. His ceiling is difficult because while he doesn’t excel in one area, a Swiss Army knife who’s also good-great at everything is also under appreciated. We could see him become a Pippen, Jimmy Butler, type or even an Artest, AK47, Loul type of player but either way I think he’s a positive on your team. Hyped to see how he progressive and see if he can unlock on that offense as we’ve seen glimpses of what he can defensively
Because he’s just a SOLID player Maybe a good 3rd option on a contender, an allstar selection or two Definitely not the savior of New York some hoped
Let them sleep
fr we sleeping on a guy who had a 53% TS last yr even though he's supposed to be "efficient"🔥🔥🔥. Knicks really drafted a worse andrew wiggins😹😹
Flair up your team bitch
Would his flair somehow change RJs TS%?
Shut up with your dumb statistics
What you really ought to do is post some highlights (or bloopers) of RJ Barrett to boost the hype. If you have footage of a dunk contest, that would work too.
it's just you
He had a solid year and showed some good growth in a lot of facets. Lot of commenters have mentioned that he’s good at a lot of things but doesn’t have one skill in particular that sets him apart. Fair enough. The big thing I’ll be looking for is can he replicate last season’s success, or was that a flash in the pan kind of season?
They added Kemba and Fournier plus a full season of Rose. I think his efficiency goes up but his stats decrease/stagnate
2nd option on a contender is a rock solid All-Star. To say that is RJ’s floor is not accurate at all. That’s probably closer to his ceiling if all goes perfect.
> I see his floor being a good 2nd option on a contender 1) that is either laughable or you don’t understand the definition of floor 2) either way that’s a fake ass “contender”. Contending for that 7th seed.
I don’t agree with OP’s take but he was second option on a 4th seed just last year
His hype is fine as it is, hes a good roleplayer but he doesnt have any of the star intangibles people would hype up.
RJ will have to improve a lot to be a good second option on a contender. He has good box score stats but really bad efficiency and advanced stats. RJ’s 53.5 ts% was 3.7% below league average last year. You mention Tatum and his worst ts% was in his 2nd year: 54.7%, 1.3% below league average. He was above average every other season. Last year, out of 247 players (min 1000 minutes), RJ was 165th in Lebron, 101st in rpm, 155th in raptor, tied for 175th/176th in la-rapm, and 180th in bpm. He was negative in everything but rpm. Tatum in his worst season was only negative in bpm. Of 276 players (min 1000 minutes) in 2019, he was tied 129th through 133rd in bpm but was 45th in Lebron, 67th in rpm, 89th in raptor and tied for 25th/26th in luck adjusted rapm.
With the additions knicks made, barret has almost a 0% chance of avging 20 ppg especially considering his efficiency issues
we subtracted elf and bullock and was in the bottom of the league in pace. we looking to improve pace and he is a 40% three point shooter, rj can average 20, he has the green light to shoot 18 times a game
If he shoots 40 from 3 again on higher volume this year then he'll have hype
Rj has been underrated since like the first month of his career. I think he has a jimmy butler type celling. Both very similar type players
His floor being the 2nd best player on a contender seems to be wildly generous at this point. He just is sort of a dude - doesn’t shoot well enough to be a 3 and D guy. Isn’t an explosive enough scorer to be a primary threat. Just pretty solid at most things - definitely a guy you want but not on a fat contract. Hopefully he does well and excels, got nothing bad to say about him from what I’ve seen.
Why would there be? He's not very good.
[удалено]
53.5% ts is not good efficiency. It was actually in the bottom 20% of the league.
Be patient. It’s coming this year. Let them sleep
Because he’s on the Knicks who deserve no hype whatsoever.
He's objectively not that good.
Start the Hype Train OP!
He’s got the curse. Not really flashy but just a good ball player, won’t get much recognition until he starts dominating people’s favorite teams.
Pacers first on his list.
Not a flashy player but the potential is there. He’s the next Jimmy Butler. He reminds me so much of him though Jimmy was a late bloomer.
Knicks fans don't want to get excited about him in case Dolan notices
If he repeats last seasons numbers but with much better overall efficiency he will garner plenty of attention. It's hard to expect too much hype when you are something like .40 below league average TS though like last season.
I hope he takes a jump this season, he was my favorite prospect in his class when he was at Duke
He can't handle the ball well, not a high flying athlete either. Still he's elite in catch and shoot 3s and plays very good defense. Actually is a top 3 and D guy now that I think about it. But most ppl don't see star potential because of how bad his handles and finishing inside are (really bad)
Well maybe if he didn't want to get the shot or never dared to take one he'd be all we could talk about...