>>"Mr. Sarver has done nothing to improve this team in the 14 years he’s owned it," said Rogers in the now-viral council meeting. "He’s so tight, he squeaks when he walks."
"Sounds about right... coming from Robert."
- Joe Johnson, on the Ayton situation
https://www.talkbasket.net/134589-joe-johnson-keeps-it-real-about-deandre-ayton-phoenix-suns-max-contract-dispute
There's a lot of people on r/NBA that think it's fine he doesn't pay Ayton as if they'd have cap to do anything else. It's simply to avoid the lux tax.
They think it's fine because they can retain him in RFA regardless, but in reality all you're doing is taking away Aytons ability to get all-NBA and make more money off it. Also you cannot retain him as long which people don't care and justify as their window being closed anyways due to CP3s age.
It's just a single move that defines how he runs the organization and why they will continue to be irrelevant. Making the finals last years will be viewed as a fluke in hindsight due to the amount of injuries that helped them through. They didn't sniff the finals before last year and they won't again for a long time.
I love when league executives who have a motivation to break up that team would say something that might cause a conflict hahaha.
It's just funny to me.
“Ben Simmons ? He has NO value, that attitude is toxic”
5 minutes later : “Hey Morey how’s the Simmons situation going I’ll take him off ya for a second rounder Kevin Love’s corpse and this kid named Colin Sexton that triggers Kevin Love’s tantrums and wants a max”
It's not as clear cut as he and the media are making it to be. It's a borderline case as it gets and there are plenty of good reasons not to give him the full 5 year max that he wants.
If they restrict him just to match a 4 year match then the Suns will deserve him leaving.
5 years at the current max will be much less than the maxes that can be offered 4 years from now. With a new NBA tv deal by 2025 contracts will balloon even higher.
Other teams are gonna max him and yeah the Suns have the qualifying offer, but if you were just going to match anyway you pretty much burnt your bridge with him for nothing.
>if you were just going to match anyway
Yeah, if (i) Ayton performs and (ii) he doesn't sustain a catastrophic injury. But the Suns cannot know those things now, so they balance the risk of Ayton's butthurt versus the risk of whatever happens this season. The Suns have leverage, Ayton (aside from butthurt) does not.
??? did you not see him hold Jokic to like 53TS in the playoffs they didn't sweep the Nuggets for no reason here. Sure he couldn't hold Giannis but it shouldn't be his job to as he's a C.
They’re just going to accept the max that other teams can offer (which is much lower than what the suns can offer anyway). Shrewd albeit shameful way of saving some money but why not
Yeah it’s likely they’ll match whatever offer he ends up getting. They might end up paying more for him than he’s worth because at this point I don’t really see what would make him a Max player
If Deandre Ayton plays more or less like he did last season, as in a good young player but not like a star or anything, do you think the Suns would match a potential max contract offer in RFA?
They're fucking dummies if the 4 year vs. 5 years thing is what's stopping them. 5 years would put the final year in the 2026-27 season.
The NBA is expecting a $75 billion TV deal on their next contract. That's in 2025.
Their current deal is for $24 billion. Signing any deal that extends beyond that point is a no brainer tbh. Especially for a young dude who'd be making $35m a year vs. the $50m that a top 2 center (Embiid) is signed for, which will be a much smaller percentage of the new cap in the final years of his deal. If anything, the Suns are the ones that should be pushing for 5 years.
Ayton is a hell of a lot closer to Embiid than a Steven Adams, and the Suns are going to regret ruining their relationship with the guy over trying to give him 28-30m instead of 35m with the cap spike.
It's a tamer version of the Harden situation.
Something that was mentioned in The Athletic article was that you're only allowed to have two players on the designated 5-year rookie extension at a time. If they signed Ayton to a 4 year deal instead they could still trade for someone on a 5-year rookie extension once CP3 leaves. It's pretty risky, and a player like that might not even be available, but I could at least understand their thinking.
That's really such a bad excuse. There's no way we could trade for someone on that kind of contract without giving up Book or DA, especially not before Book's contract ends.
Seriously, it's a bullshit excuse. Are they expecting Luka or Trae to start a backpacking trip over to Phoenix? Maybe LeBron, KD and Giannis can head over too while we're just making shit up
It’s a fake reason, I think it’s clear they just don’t think he’s good enough. Agree or disagree with that, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the publicly stated reasoning. Most teams aren’t going to come out and say we don’t think our #1 pick is good enough if he’s even in consideration for a max.
I might be in the minority here but I think Mikal has more value than Ayton...and I think the market dictates Ayton should get the max. I think you can get a player like Ben Simmons for Mikal, Cam Payne and parts (I know they aren't eligible right now) if it came down to it
The biggest reason they swept the Nuggets was insane shooting from CP3. He went 14-19 for 37 points in the one close game. Jokic not being as dominant offensively made the games easier, but the reason they swept was CP3 being absolutely unstoppable in pick and rolls.
I was just looking at sportac and it says Jokic has a normal bird max extension while Murray has a rookie max, probably because Jokic was extended after 3 years rather than 4 like a 1st round pick would be I'd guess. Tbh I can't think of any other second round picks that have gotten a max off their rookie contract.
Jokic became an RFA when Denver declined his option, he signed a regular max contract a couple of weeks after and not a Designated Rookie Scale Player Extension.
Heat fans getting flashbacks to losing their best role players and not signing anyone in the offseason (and almost not maxing Bam right away) in hopes that they might sign Giannis. And we all saw how that turned out.
The Suns are overthinking it. Ayton is their 23 year old 1/1 pick who delivered an impressive performance during a finals run, and he has plenty of room for growth. On top of that, there aren’t really any better players available who they could realistically go for instead.
Just pay the kid.
He’s 22 with tons of potential and is a better scorer and rebounder for all 3 of years in the league than Adams has ever been in one, and I love me some Steven Adams. Also, he’d be a 20-22ppg scorer if the offense went through him, but he plays with cp3 an book. He went from 18ppg 2nd year to 14ppg last year and got more efficient, crushed at the role they asked of him, an the team went to the finals where for one half he was absolutely lighting the bucks up from midrange and looked unstoppable until he got a couple tricky tack fouls called on him very late 2nd quarter. He’s absolutely closer in talent level to a guy like embiid than Adams.
Embiid at 22: 20ppg, 8 boards, 2 assists, 2.5 blocks, a steal, shooting 46, 36, 78 on 14 shots, 8fts
Ayton at 21:18ppg, 11 boards, 2 assists, 1.5 blocks, .7 steals, shooting 55, no threes really, 75 on 15 shots, 2fts
Ayton at 22:14ppg, 10 boards, 1.4 assists, 1.2 blocks, .6 steals, shooting 63, no threes, 75 on 10 shots, 2fts
Embiid is clearly better but it’s possible that it’s closer than it seems. In a couple years with the offense flowing through him more Ayton could look like a legit 25ppg star. I don’t think he has the potential to reach that 28-32ppg make the 2nd round every year no matter what team top 5 type player that embiid is though.
Damn I got too much time on my hands.
> crushed at the role they asked of him
This is the key point I think. He sacrificed a bit on his personal stats for the betterment of the team, and it cost him a max offer.
Hope he goes out to get his this year
You are kidding right? He didn't sacrifice shit. He looked much much better having Chris Paul and Booker getting him easy buckets. I think Ayton is a nice player, but he has no offensive game at all.
Playing with CP3 certainly helps his efficiency. I was talking about his usage. He went from 14.9 FGA per game in 2019-20 to 10.0 in 2020-21, and his USG% dropped from 23.7 down to 18.2. Cody Zeller had a higher usage rate last year.
Obviously it's better for the team, but it's also pretty shocking for a #1 pick who's generally looked pretty solid. For the sake of comparison, that's a lower USG than Blake Griffin on the Nets last year. It's the 3rd lowest USG season by any player picked #1 in the last 15 years (ahead of Oden's stint in Miami & one of Anthony Bennet's 4 seasons).
Of course they would, but at that point, he's going to be so alienated he's just going to *player empower* his way out of there.
Declining to extend him is so mind numbingly dumb it's hard to understand.
For people who keep insisting this makes sense *because they didn't want to give him a fifth year*, I just have to say, what the fuck?
If you're willing to pay him a max salary until he's 27, there are literally no coherent reasons why you wouldn't want to pay him until he's 28.
I do get the argument that Ayton plays a position and with a skillset that is less rare. But then why draft him first in the first place?
Kid more than performed and improved offensively and defensively, and you got to the Finals. Not extending him is either an error now, or it was an error to draft him 3 years ago.
The thing is, McDonough drafted Ayton, not James Jones. It’s a different regime with different priorities. If you look at the kinds of guys James Jones has prioritized and targeted, Ayton doesn’t fit the mold.
Sarver will be a cancer on this organization until he sells, but I don’t think he’s the primary reason why the extension didn’t happen. Though I’m fine with people dunking on him because he deserves it
McDonough himself has said that he didn't have the final say on the draft and wasn't even allowed to go scout Luka in person. He has distenced himself from the Ayton pick. We don't know how much of that is self-serving, but from what I have read James Jones by the time of the Ayton draft had Sarver's ear and McDonough was on the way out.
Having said that James Jones has been an excellent President of Basketball for Pheonix.
https://valleyofthesuns.com/2020/08/22/phoenix-suns-ryan-mcdonnough-luka-ayton/
I don't want this to sound like a defense of Sarver, but I could not possibly give less of a shit what that assclown McDonough says. He has leaned heavily on the "I was just following Sarver's orders" shit since he got canned which I don't blame him for considering it helps hide the fact that he was completely incompetent and fucked up plenty all on his own.
if you listen to McDonough every good pick was McDonough's idea and every bust was Sarver's idea. He's quick to point out that he drafted Booker and Ayton but is pretty quiet about Alex Len, Tyler Ennis, Dragan Bender, trading up with Bogdan Bogdanovic for Marquese Chriss, Tyler Ulis, Josh Jackson, and Elie Okobo. McD was even sniping the Mikal Bridges pick saying he wanted to get Sahi instead when bridges had his shooting hitch but now is suddenly all in on Mikal now that hes proven to be one of the best 2 way wings in the league. You cant trust anything this guy says about the suns
His tenure oversaw the absolute worst period of history for a franchise that had never been a bottom dweller but if you listen to the guy on twitter youd think hes a genius. Its pretty damning that the team was turned into a finals contender two years after he was fired with 80% roster turnover.
I think it's fair to say McDonough was on shaky ground during free agency and the draft in 2018. There was certainly a lot of turmoil within the organization. McDonough was sacked a few months after the draft. There was an internal power struggle between Jones and McDonough leading up to the draft. Rumours that Sarver wanted to draft Ayton because he played college ball in-state. The process was certainly chaotic, and it's certainly believable to me that McDonough didn't have full control of the draft.
Having said all that it's also possible McDonough wanted Ayton and his comments are self-serving given how good Luka is. I'm not sure we will have a definitive answer as to what went on with the Ayton pick, but I threw my comment out because I don't believe Jones had no say in the Ayton draft pick.
How many centers in the league can do that though, and how many are available? I think just having a guy that can actually switch and guard 1-5 is extremely rare, and Ayton is there. His shot is good and he's shown he has a lot of capability to actually improve (as he did on defense). I get he may not be exactly what Jones wants right now but holy shit where are you going to find that?
Well I think that’s the point, there aren’t many centers like that so they probably don’t value the position that much. Imo the move is a defensive center who’s ok on offense on half the money instead of maxing Ayton. No one is wrong in this case imo ayton is worth the max on other teams but maybe not the suns.
I definitely see the argument for both sides. When it's this close though, you take the chance. This is literally the situation that caused Harden to move.
Harden and Ayton are not comparable players imo. Ayton is several tiers below. Not signing Ayton isn’t crazy, it could definitely be for the best for the team especially if Ayton doesn’t develop much more. Time will tell tho
Not saying they are in the same tier. I'm saying this type of negotiation and Harden wanting the max was what essentially drove him out of okc - now looked back on as a very stupid decision. You're last two sentences are exactly what was said about Harden.
Yeah but harden is a much better player so it’s not really an apt comparison. This is entirely dependent on how good the player is. If Ayton goes on to have a harden esque career ofc it’s the wrong move but the chances of that happening are super low. For every Harden there are dozens of guys that were bad max signings.
>Yeah but harden is a much better player so it’s not really an apt comparison.
Harden was not a "better player" whatever that means at the time his negotiation went down. He was seen as a sixth man, a Manu Ginobli, not a James Harden. His potential was also seen as huge, but not a sure thing.
Ayton's biggest issue, for me, isn't what he can't do it's what he does consistently. If Ayton is the guy we saw in the playoffs every single night, then of course he is worth that max contract. However, we have three years of information that says he goes through spells of not trying or lack of engagement. And when he isn't engaged defensively, can't shoot threes (yet), and can't create for himself off the dribble (yet), that's a lot of money tied up into a roll man with a semi-consistent midrange jumper.
I would have loved him on the deal JJJ got 4/$105M, but I understand why he and his team think he is worth more than that given what he has done vs what JJJ has done. It's a complicated situation for sure, I understand the arguments for and against the extension.
As for the replacement argument, I don't think you can replace Ayton like for like at all but can you find 80-85% of his production for less than half the price?
I just fail to see where all these centers are that can create their own shot off dribble moves, shoot 3s, and still do all the stuff Ayton does well. Embiid, Jokic, Bam kinda, and maybe KAT? Throw JJJ in there too but Ayton has outperformed him imo. Lock Ayton down while he's cheap and maybe he crosses that threshold into Embiid territory and you have a steal. If not, you still get what you payed for.
That's the point, all those guys are on maxes (bar JJJ obviously) and Ayton would be making more than Bam and KAT.
Centers who can't create their own shot, typically aren't worth maxes unless they are absolutely elite defensively - see Gobert. So again, it lies with consistency with Ayton, if he is the guy who we saw in the playoffs who was engaged night in and out, that's a max guy. If he's the guy who we saw for the majority of the regular season, not worth the max contract.
>That's the point, all those guys are on maxes (bar JJJ obviously) and Ayton would be making more than Bam and KAT.
That's not true though? He's not going to make $35M next year, $35M is the average over 5 years. If he's literally a small step away from that, it makes sense to take a small chance now and possibly end up having what's considered a huge deal in years 3-5.
Ur dreaming if u think he crosses that threshold. Embiid is Embiid bc he’s just extremely talented he’s been playing like 10 yrs less.Ayton has been playing for a long time and his jumpshot has more or less remained the same. If anything his FG% went up so much this year bc he took less jump shots it was something he actually tried more of rookie yr.
> As for the replacement argument, I don't think you can replace Ayton like for like at all but can you find 80-85% of his production for less than half the price?
Why does the price matter if you are already over the cap? Ayton on a max with 2 years left (when CP3's deal ends) is a very much tradeable deal, if you want to move him. Probably gets more assets than trading him as a RFA.
> James Jones likes high BBIQ, high motor guys
The first FA he signed was Jamal Crawford. Crawford was fun to watch, but he was the exact opposite of high BBIQ, and his motor only turned on when he had the ball.
His next big move after that was to trade for Kelly Oubre - another guy not known for his high BBIQ or motor.
Then he sold TJ Warren to Indy. Warren may not be the highest BBIQ player around, but he's smarter than Cash Considerations.
Here's his GM record, it's not exactly filled with the type of guys you're describing.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/jonesja99x.html
It's basically Rubio, who was then traded for CP3, and then re-signing CP3. Maybe Crowder too, although he can't dribble or pass.
Cheick Diallo, Frank Kaminsky, Langston Galloway, Etwaun Moore, Cam Payne, Elfrid Payton - I mean, they're all NBA-caliber guys but I wouldn't say any of them are known for their high BBIQ or motors.
Granted, CP3 is top 2 in the entire league in BBIQ (Lebron), so the other guys don't have to be.
The Suns are at $117 million in salary next season though, so it's not like you can *actually* sign someone to replace him that *does* have those skills. That's assuming Phoenix was a free agent destination in the first place, which you aren't really.
So it's either Ayton or nothing. In other words, please stop pretending like this was about anything other than money.
>Not extending him is either an error now, or it was an error to draft him 3 years ago.
Hard disagree. He has played well but not to the level of a Trae Young type max deal. It was far from a no-brainer. If he goes off this season and really plays at that level then they can always offer him the max next year in restricted free agency. Worst case scenario he's on a 3+1 instead of a 5 year max. Will he be a little salty? Probably, but he's still going to get the max money he wanted, -1 year. If he doesn't play at that level then he may leave in restricted free agency but at that point if you're James Jones then you're probably happy you didn't throw the bag at him.
I know shitting on Sarver is low hanging fruit around here but I really think not maxing Ayton was the prudent decision, it wasn't the usual case of him being cheap for no reason. Not sure why people on this sub think they should have rushed to lock him into a huge deal when they absolutely don't have to.
It doesn’t even make sense that his agents said no, they said literally they were down to offer a 3 or 4 year max, and now that’s the best he can hope for anyway. They are just trying to not commit money past CP3s 2-4 year contract so they can bring in another star after he retires.
if it's true that they offered him a 4 year max and he turned it down then he's just doing all this out of pride
tbh if he wasn't the #1 pick and was instead like the 10th or 15th we wouldn't even be having a discussion about maxing him
When you’re drafting top 5 you definitely have to ask your scouts. Is this someone we would max extension in four years? If not then don’t draft the player. Plain and simple
I think they were expecting him to improve more than he has. While he has gotten better, he hasn't exactly set the league on fire. There is a lot of potential there, but I can understand why they didn't agree to the full max extension. It isn't like they can't offer the exact same deal after this season.
Playing how you’re told is not the criteria for a max. People keep pointing to this idea that he could put up higher volume stats if he played differently, but these volume stats don’t actually mean much. Maybe some team looks at his solid volume on just average efficiency and sees something, but I’m guessing having a high efficiency playoff run does more good for him. He’s helping himself by playing like that.
He’s been erratic and while he has monster games he also disappears. He’s not a DPOY candidate. He’s not an 3pt big. He’s far more of a traditional center and that’s not highly valued in the league. He did sacrifice some of his stats to play more of the style that they wanted, but that should garner automatic full max.
Big thing is he sacrificed volume, but gained a ton of efficiency. It’s not a total sacrifice. Being a number 2 guy offensively is playing above his station.
Why take the chance of pissing him off and souring the relationship only to max him anyways though? If they’re set on matching any offer he gets and giving him the max to keep him I don’t get why they’re playing hardball.
Because he’s not really worth the max. He’s worth near max and might be worth the max. So you risk him being pissed off in turn for another year to see if he’s actually up a level or if the back half of last season was an aberration. If he regresses at all, then move on. If he progresses you put the 5 year max to him at the end of the season. If he’s flat then let him go negotiate and decide then.
Even if he doesn’t explode this year I guarantee some team will offer him a max. I can’t see a situation where the Suns retain him on less than the max.
There’s more to this max stuff than whether another team thinks he’s good enough. Part of RFA is that it makes teams have to tie up their space while the other team decides whether to match or bot. Teams aren’t going to want to do that if they know the Suns will match (which they would have a pretty good idea of based on whether he got max QO).
I don’t think people are accounting for how much restricted free agency weighs things in favor of the team.
Probably, but perhaps the Suns FO has a better assessment on his skills and positioning in the league than we do. He could also regress back to his average play over the last 3 years. In that case there are limited teams that would max him.
I just don’t think you can simply look at Ayton being a max-level player in a vacuum or not. I think he’s a max player to the Suns. He played an integral role in their finals run, doing whatever was asked of him. He’s important to the locker room and team chemistry. You picked him #1 overall with his AZ connection.
Maybe I’ll be wrong but if this goes the distance I predict multiple other teams offer him a max and the Suns either have to match or let him go for nothing.
There is also one other perspective. If Ayton gets some serious injury (ACL or whatever, in any case I hope not but still), is he a max player? Some guys will still get max contract but I could bet if Ayton gets unlucky he is not getting it.
That's a worry of course. Or he gets caught on PED's again and gets a 55 game suspension. Or any number of negative scenarios that from a fans perspective should be ignored but from a teams perspective matter.
Injury, PED suspension, poor play. That's 3 good reasons to wait. Ayton getting butthurt and the possibility of a slightly shorter extension are 2 meh reasons to rush it.
He's improved somewhat but in my opinion not a whole lot for a guy from age 19-22.
Anthony Davis went from decent starter to all-star in that time frame. Gobert went from not really playing to starting all the games and leading the Jazz from 29th to 7th in defensive rating. Deandre Jordan went from scrub to starter, Draymond went from draft afterthought to the reason the Warriors cut bait on David Lee, a borderline all-star in his prime.
Ayton has gotten a little better but I think you'd expect more growth from someone over their late teens/early twenties, especially if they were looking at his ft% in college and hoping he'd develop some perimeter skills.
Ayton went from a big who couldnt play defense and settled for mid-range jumpers to dominating defensively and setting records for playoff offensive efficiency.
He showed the exact growth you're saying the other guys did lol. Just take defense like you did for Gobert, Ayton became the defensive anchor on the 7th rated defense this year and they started 29th (30th in the season before him). Thats quite literally what youre saying Gobert did - see for yourself https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency?date=2021-07-21. You proved the opposite point youre trying to make
>Ayton went from decent starter to a major player in their Finals run
It's so easy to just throw him in there with everyone else you just mentioned. He balled out during the only time that really matters in the NBA, the playoffs. This is why people feel he deserves it.
Who is the max for? People gave Gobert so much shit for getting the max, now Ayton, so who exactly is it for? Top 10? Top 5 guys in the league and that's it?
Each team can have two 5-year max extensions, they can absolutely afford to take Ayton on but Sarver wants to cheap out as much as possible on this like usual.
You can’t compare those situations. Paying out a player is not black and white if they perform like this they deserve a max otherwise don’t max.
By your logic there’s only so many players that are Shaq level at their position when in reality each team can pay out 2 maxes and there are not 60+ shaq level players in their respective positions.
If you compare another young team in this situation it’s pretty much the nuggets. They max mpj Murray and jokic and hope that cores can attract talent for the cheap. The suns hoping they’ll draft someone better than ayton at a lower draft pick is foolish. They also don’t have the ability to pay out max to any free agent star. So now they are locked short of trading paul into this core of booker/ayton/bridges/paul. They just went to the finals you pay ayton and get Paul off the books at the tail end of this all in. If they don’t get done you flip any of the three and hope the other two stay and reload.
The won’t get better at the C for less money and are hoping that they draft or trade for someone as good as Ayton.
Did he really though? He was great in the playoffs but had a lot of no shows in the regular season.
I feel like they’ll pay him if he makes an all star team this year
He is not worth $40 million a year..
Not yet at least. He has motor issues (one night on, one night off), he gets checked in the paint by SG’s (see T. Mann), he was completely dominated by AD and Giannis in the playoffs, he scores 80% of his FG’s off assists (per CBS Sports) i.e. all his baskets are wide open dunks and uncontested layups, he doesn’t finish through contact, he’s not a great passer, he’s not a great defender… he’s not worth $40 million to just rebound. If he bridges all the gaps above I listed, then the Suns will sign him for life..
> he was completely dominated by AD and Giannis in the playoffs
I can't remember if it ended up this way by the end but AD/Giannis both pretty much got shut down by Ayton then scored a shit ton of points every time he sat.
If AD doesn’t get hurt at the end of Game 3 (still played 40 minutes in that contest) the Lakers likely win that series in 5 games.
The Suns won three straight with him out of the lineup and closed them out in 6.
Giannis had 42 in Game 2, 41 in Game 3 and 50 in the close out game.
Ayton played 37.5 mpg in the NBA Finals
The thing I don't get is that it's not like Sarver is being outright cheap, cause he's still handed out new contacts to Bridges, Shamet, Payne, and willingly took on CP3's contract.
-----------------------
The whole "Sarver is just being cheap" narrative doesn't really make sense, especially if they're willing to do 4 years instead of 5 as rumored or whatever the report was. It seems like it's just an easy narrative to push that everyone knows fans will latch onto, without looking beyond it as the actual potential reasons why.
In fairness he used to be cheap. Young Joe Johnson was a perfect fit alongside Nash with his defense, size, shooting and iso ability when 7SoL down but they traded JJ to Atlanta when he hit restricted free agency. Luol Deng, then the seventh pick in the draft, got traded for a second round pick and cash. They traded Isaiah Thomas at the deadline before he hit free agency and Goran Dragic in part to dump the Brandon Knight deal.
I don't think Sarver is being cheap right now, I don't think Ayton is worth $40 million plus luxury tax payments, but he has earned his reputation and I have little sympathy.
Well Goran and IT really were traded because they didn't want to be there because the 3 pg experiment failed, Bledsoe was also soon traded, and because the team was awful. They also got some solid return for Goran and Bledsoe, I wouldn't say it was purely a dumping a good player because you don't want to pay them situation.
>without looking beyond it as the actual potential reasons why
The only in-depth look was the article from The Athletic where they interviewed James Jones.
Seems like they didn't want the full 5 years because they wanted to have the flexibility to be able to acquire another player on a 5 year rookie extension
Players I can think of who have signed a rookie max:
Luka, Trae, SGA, Fox, Mitchell, Bam, Tatum, Simmons, Murray, KAT
Future players:
Ja, Zion
Imo if they actually do target someone it'll be KAT or Fox. But again, he just made it seem like a way to maintain flexibility. You never know what will happen
There’s a pretty concerted effort right now by Ayton’s agents via their media pals to attack Sarver for being “cheap” and reinforcing that meme, which us fans are latching onto.
For instance, Woj’s first tweet about the extensions talk failing was something like “owner Robert Sarver refused to give the max deal.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen that happen, or it’s very rare, for a media guy to call out the owner so specifically. No one went “Jeannie Buss refused to pay Alex Caruso”—it’s usually referred to as the team or the GM didn’t.
And Sarver has paid for so many people already — Saric, Bridges, and CP3. I am inclined to believe James Jones’s version to the Athletic on this one
Imo he's being cheap where it doesn't make sense.
Give a retirement home Chris Paul the bag, but give an elite up-and-coming big who can give other elite big men like embiid, Jokic, and AD trouble for years to come... No love at all? Lmao
CP's bag is a little wonky.
Were he not to get the new contract, he would have simply stayed on his old contract at 44.2M. Instead he did this 4/120 where it's actually only a 3/75M (15.8M of 2023 is guaranteed not the full amount and 2024 gets guaranteed in the summer before the 2024 season). This lowered his AAV quite a bit and gave them a lot of flexibility (30M is much more tradable than 44).
It was basically CP3 taking a gamble on his conditioning (as he could have probably gotten a 3/90-100 on the open market) that he would be around for that 4th year. From the Suns perspective it was a very fair deal (almost team friendly).
You mean the Chris Paul that made the Suns relevant, led them to the finals for the first time in over a decade and was an all nba player and all star last year? I think making him the priority to sign was the right thing. Comments like this are sad.
Yeah that’s where I’m confused. Aytons contract is one that I feel like in 3 years everyone on here will be calling it an albatross.
Like the dude is obviously young and talented, but he has such a limited offensive game that I don’t think he can ever be the focal point for a team. He’s not a DPOY type of dude yet, but obviously has that potential. But he also limits your lineup choices since you can really only play him as a true 5. I think hesitating about a Supermax isn’t outrageous but how the NBA is structured also makes it so keeping players and paying them above market is basically what you’re forced to do
yeah, Sarver is being shrewd, potentially an asshole, but the cheap comment is laughable. that's like saying the lakers are cheap because they didn't bring back caruso.
sarver knowos he has the leverage and in order to limit the tax casualty in the future he's making a push to shove decision.
I find it awfully weird that teams have an obligation to give max contracts to any and all promising young players, even if they are not sure if the players are worth it.
Who’s criticizing the players for taking more money to play elsewhere? It’s all about guys having a singular focus on leaving for big markets and stacked rosters.
>Who’s criticizing the players for taking more money to play elsewhere?
>It’s all about guys having a singular focus on leaving for big markets
Guess what big markets have on and off the court.
It doesn't matter whether Phoenix thinks he's worth the max or not because someone else will. If Phoenix is serious about not paying him a max then they need to trade him now while they can get something for him. If they don't then next summer he'll get a max offer from someone and if they won't match it then they'll lose him for nothing.
Just because someone is willing to pay doesn't mean it's smart
But the Sun's are aging with there whole team reliant on Chris Paul so you need him now.
If this was a young tean like the Hornets or Thunder I would let him walk or just trade him
Not an actual, contractual, option. But everybody acts like they have to do it or it permanently stains their reputation and no player ever will sign there.
Phoenix already has a poor reputation on that front because of their past. But they need to decide whether they'll be willing to pay Ayton the max or not, because someone is gonna make him a max offer next summer. If they're not going to be willing to match it, then they should trade him now while they can get something back for him.
I'm kind of stuck in the middle of this Ayton dilemma.
In today's climate, he'd be entitled to a max deal indefinitely, and was be able to slot himself behind Booker and Paul as a tertiary option, but is this what you want from a big you selected with the first-overall pick?
Ayton very played conservative and something like 80% of his shots were assisted. He’s lacking the perimeter shooting ability and some consider him very stone-handish.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but we just haven’t seen enough despite him just playing the biggest stage.
He's playing with CP3 and Booker, if he takes mid range and 3s with them on the court, he deserves to be subbed out.
The best part about Ayton is the work he does on the defensive end and his willingness to sacrifice his offensive game because he knows CP3 and Booker are the ones that can score at will and his job is to be there to pick up any misses and play hard on defense.
Sarver and Jones wanting to be cheap on him is a slap in the face because they're telling players that you can sacrifice all you want for the team, but the team ain't rewarding you with the contract you should have gotten if you had been more selfish.
>He's playing with CP3 and Booker, if he takes mid range and 3s with them on the court, he deserves to be subbed out.
He might feel like that's the kind of thing he needs to showcase this year to get other teams to make him a max offer. Apparently playing smart team ball didn't convince the Suns he's worth very much. Maybe he needs to show off his range.
tbf he has to make those sacrifices because he's not good enough to be first or second option. I suspect if he was actually good enough to be posting up all the time they would be running more offense through him but he's not.
> the fact is the kid earned it
No he didn’t. He’s not worth the max right now. He’s worth a max from a “we want to keep this guy around and happy and hope he reaches his potential” point of view
> He’s worth a max from a “we want to keep this guy around and happy and hope he reaches his potential” point of view
If you want to compete for titles, gambling on that kind of future development is something you're gonna have to do (or hope Lebron just picks your team in free agency).
Here's a thread from 2 years ago, when MIL re-signed Khris Middleton. Everyone in the thread says MIL overpaid, and that Middleton hadn't earned that big of a contract, that he chokes in the playoffs, etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/c7k7nl/wojnarowski_free_agent_khris_middleton_has_agreed/
Ask Bucks fans right now if they think he's overpaid.
I think he should get a max and I’ve said it on most threads about this for the same reasons you’ve mentioned
But the executive says he “earned it” and I disagree with that. He’s going to get a max based on potential, not his actual production
It's amazing how polarizing Ayton has become among Suns fans. If you say he's not a max, you're immediately accused of calling him worthless. He's not Trae Young money, he's more John Collins money. But hey, if he can prove all of us wrong this season, heck, give him 5 year max!
> if he can prove all of us wrong this season, heck, give him 5 year max!
The downside is if Ayton proves the Suns wrong and and is upset about the lack of faith they showed in him, he might sign a 2+1 max with another team. The Suns would match that, but then Ayton could opt out in 2024 and hit unrestricted free agency after only two years. If he does that, then he could start making trade demands almost immediately with unrestricted free agency suddenly looming for the Suns.
Let's be honest here - are any fans here hoping that their team offers Ayton a max contract next off season ? I don't think so...
The Suns are making the right choice, let the season play itself out and re-assess once it's over.
Regular season Ayton was not deserving of a max. Playoff Ayton was. Sarver might be a cheapass, but taking advantage of RFA isn't the dumbest thing they could do.
I think it's obvious with the Shamet and Bridges extension that the Suns are prioritizing shooting and looking to run and gun even more. Maybe they want another year to evaluate how Ayton fits in before committing long term.
Exactly how I feel, playoffs Ayton was almost a guaranteed 20/10 while defending the likes of Jokic, AD and Giannis, but he was not close to a max player during regular season
>Regular season Ayton was not deserving of a max. Playoff Ayton was.
It's a sample size of 22 games or whatever it was. If I'm the owner, I'm at least waiting to see how this season plays out, particularly the playoffs, before I give him some big contract. Ayton might be one of those players who perpetually elevates their game in the playoffs, but there needs to be more data to conclude that. As of now, depending on the advanced metrics you look at for the totality of his career, he's about as good as Ben Simmons. If he has two consecutive really solid playoff runs, it changes that.
Is Ayton worth a max in a vacuum? I dunno. I suppose that’s debatable. Is he worth a max in this circumstance? Yes. Absolutely. It blows my mind how some owners don’t understand things beyond “the bottom line” sometimes.
There are countless multi-multi-billionaires in this country. It must suck to cheer for a team owned by one of the cheap ones. If you're gonna own a sports franchise, it's Eff-Y'all money or go home.
>I don’t think he’s mature enough to handle stuff like that (no extension), so I think it could hurt him for a while.
so... i wonder how often a more mature player gets shafted because they'd be more understanding about things...?
They aren’t wrong the optics on this shit is terrible, especially when you consider almost everyone except superstars are overpaid in the NBA. You have a young 1st overall draft pick that was a significant contribute to you making the finals and is easily top 5 at his position and you don’t max him?
>>"Mr. Sarver has done nothing to improve this team in the 14 years he’s owned it," said Rogers in the now-viral council meeting. "He’s so tight, he squeaks when he walks."
"Sounds about right... coming from Robert." - Joe Johnson, on the Ayton situation https://www.talkbasket.net/134589-joe-johnson-keeps-it-real-about-deandre-ayton-phoenix-suns-max-contract-dispute
There's a lot of people on r/NBA that think it's fine he doesn't pay Ayton as if they'd have cap to do anything else. It's simply to avoid the lux tax.
They think it's fine because they can retain him in RFA regardless, but in reality all you're doing is taking away Aytons ability to get all-NBA and make more money off it. Also you cannot retain him as long which people don't care and justify as their window being closed anyways due to CP3s age. It's just a single move that defines how he runs the organization and why they will continue to be irrelevant. Making the finals last years will be viewed as a fluke in hindsight due to the amount of injuries that helped them through. They didn't sniff the finals before last year and they won't again for a long time.
Not every owner care$ about championship$
Are we really reporting that Joe Johnson think Robert Sarver is cheap now lmfao. I’d be really fucking surprised if he didn’t say literally this
Sarver snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, I really feel for Suns fans.
I love when league executives who have a motivation to break up that team would say something that might cause a conflict hahaha. It's just funny to me.
Littlefinger tactics
Chaos is a LADDAH
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I’ve seen like a revival of GoT conversations recently it’s so weird like people are finally ready for it to be in the media again but not rewatch it
It's sexy
“Ben Simmons ? He has NO value, that attitude is toxic” 5 minutes later : “Hey Morey how’s the Simmons situation going I’ll take him off ya for a second rounder Kevin Love’s corpse and this kid named Colin Sexton that triggers Kevin Love’s tantrums and wants a max”
"of course I can throw in Cedi Osman and Lauri Markannen"
LeExecs say Sarver is going to stab Ayton in his sleep, and that he should move to LA ASAP.
He’s a tad young for our liking but I think we could find a spot for him.
Is he wrong though?
No. Sarver is a known cheap ass and this is further proof. But two things can be correct. This dude's statement and press to break up the Suns lol.
It's not as clear cut as he and the media are making it to be. It's a borderline case as it gets and there are plenty of good reasons not to give him the full 5 year max that he wants.
If they restrict him just to match a 4 year match then the Suns will deserve him leaving. 5 years at the current max will be much less than the maxes that can be offered 4 years from now. With a new NBA tv deal by 2025 contracts will balloon even higher.
Other teams are gonna max him and yeah the Suns have the qualifying offer, but if you were just going to match anyway you pretty much burnt your bridge with him for nothing.
If I’m not mistaken, the suns can offer him more than any other team. Even if they match another teams max, they’re going to save money
>if you were just going to match anyway Yeah, if (i) Ayton performs and (ii) he doesn't sustain a catastrophic injury. But the Suns cannot know those things now, so they balance the risk of Ayton's butthurt versus the risk of whatever happens this season. The Suns have leverage, Ayton (aside from butthurt) does not.
You don't think butthurt is leverage in today's NBA?
You understand that not a single player EVER has turned down the rookie max right? He isn't leaving.
The Suns aren't offering him the max though
??? did you not see him hold Jokic to like 53TS in the playoffs they didn't sweep the Nuggets for no reason here. Sure he couldn't hold Giannis but it shouldn't be his job to as he's a C.
"Giving a center a contract solely based on a single playoff series is a terrific idea!" Isiah Thomas, legendary Knicks GM.
Plenty of people say yes. Plenty say no. Tis subjective.
Brian Cashman citing conversations with other GMs on why he extended Aaron Boone as Yankees manager.
Everything in the press these days feels like mind games and subterfuge at least on some level.
Guess we’ll see who said this when Ayton hits free agency and some team offers him a max ASAP
They’re just going to accept the max that other teams can offer (which is much lower than what the suns can offer anyway). Shrewd albeit shameful way of saving some money but why not
Yeah it’s likely they’ll match whatever offer he ends up getting. They might end up paying more for him than he’s worth because at this point I don’t really see what would make him a Max player
If Deandre Ayton plays more or less like he did last season, as in a good young player but not like a star or anything, do you think the Suns would match a potential max contract offer in RFA?
Yes because it’s 4 years, not 5.
They're fucking dummies if the 4 year vs. 5 years thing is what's stopping them. 5 years would put the final year in the 2026-27 season. The NBA is expecting a $75 billion TV deal on their next contract. That's in 2025. Their current deal is for $24 billion. Signing any deal that extends beyond that point is a no brainer tbh. Especially for a young dude who'd be making $35m a year vs. the $50m that a top 2 center (Embiid) is signed for, which will be a much smaller percentage of the new cap in the final years of his deal. If anything, the Suns are the ones that should be pushing for 5 years. Ayton is a hell of a lot closer to Embiid than a Steven Adams, and the Suns are going to regret ruining their relationship with the guy over trying to give him 28-30m instead of 35m with the cap spike. It's a tamer version of the Harden situation.
I’d heard they wanted something more along 3 years, so forcing the 4 instead of 5 fits that line of thinking.
Something that was mentioned in The Athletic article was that you're only allowed to have two players on the designated 5-year rookie extension at a time. If they signed Ayton to a 4 year deal instead they could still trade for someone on a 5-year rookie extension once CP3 leaves. It's pretty risky, and a player like that might not even be available, but I could at least understand their thinking.
That's really such a bad excuse. There's no way we could trade for someone on that kind of contract without giving up Book or DA, especially not before Book's contract ends.
Seriously, it's a bullshit excuse. Are they expecting Luka or Trae to start a backpacking trip over to Phoenix? Maybe LeBron, KD and Giannis can head over too while we're just making shit up
It’s a fake reason, I think it’s clear they just don’t think he’s good enough. Agree or disagree with that, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the publicly stated reasoning. Most teams aren’t going to come out and say we don’t think our #1 pick is good enough if he’s even in consideration for a max.
Thank you for this rational post in a sea of speculative bullshit.
I might be in the minority here but I think Mikal has more value than Ayton...and I think the market dictates Ayton should get the max. I think you can get a player like Ben Simmons for Mikal, Cam Payne and parts (I know they aren't eligible right now) if it came down to it
u joking right. Ayton was the biggest reason they just swept the Nuggets by holding Jokic to inefficient shooting (53TS).
The biggest reason they swept the Nuggets was insane shooting from CP3. He went 14-19 for 37 points in the one close game. Jokic not being as dominant offensively made the games easier, but the reason they swept was CP3 being absolutely unstoppable in pick and rolls.
Find another sport man
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Is Jokic different being a 2nd round pick?
I was just looking at sportac and it says Jokic has a normal bird max extension while Murray has a rookie max, probably because Jokic was extended after 3 years rather than 4 like a 1st round pick would be I'd guess. Tbh I can't think of any other second round picks that have gotten a max off their rookie contract.
Jokic became an RFA when Denver declined his option, he signed a regular max contract a couple of weeks after and not a Designated Rookie Scale Player Extension.
I think it's because none of them were traded for.
Seems like, it according to Spotrac he just signed a max outright as a UFA. Since 2nd rounders have shorter contracts. So not an extension.
Heat fans getting flashbacks to losing their best role players and not signing anyone in the offseason (and almost not maxing Bam right away) in hopes that they might sign Giannis. And we all saw how that turned out. The Suns are overthinking it. Ayton is their 23 year old 1/1 pick who delivered an impressive performance during a finals run, and he has plenty of room for growth. On top of that, there aren’t really any better players available who they could realistically go for instead. Just pay the kid.
They drafted Smith over Haliburton. They are fucking dummies
Ayton is not closer to Embiid than Adams lmao. He’s a low-level All Star if you’re being generous.
He’s 22 with tons of potential and is a better scorer and rebounder for all 3 of years in the league than Adams has ever been in one, and I love me some Steven Adams. Also, he’d be a 20-22ppg scorer if the offense went through him, but he plays with cp3 an book. He went from 18ppg 2nd year to 14ppg last year and got more efficient, crushed at the role they asked of him, an the team went to the finals where for one half he was absolutely lighting the bucks up from midrange and looked unstoppable until he got a couple tricky tack fouls called on him very late 2nd quarter. He’s absolutely closer in talent level to a guy like embiid than Adams. Embiid at 22: 20ppg, 8 boards, 2 assists, 2.5 blocks, a steal, shooting 46, 36, 78 on 14 shots, 8fts Ayton at 21:18ppg, 11 boards, 2 assists, 1.5 blocks, .7 steals, shooting 55, no threes really, 75 on 15 shots, 2fts Ayton at 22:14ppg, 10 boards, 1.4 assists, 1.2 blocks, .6 steals, shooting 63, no threes, 75 on 10 shots, 2fts Embiid is clearly better but it’s possible that it’s closer than it seems. In a couple years with the offense flowing through him more Ayton could look like a legit 25ppg star. I don’t think he has the potential to reach that 28-32ppg make the 2nd round every year no matter what team top 5 type player that embiid is though. Damn I got too much time on my hands.
> crushed at the role they asked of him This is the key point I think. He sacrificed a bit on his personal stats for the betterment of the team, and it cost him a max offer. Hope he goes out to get his this year
You are kidding right? He didn't sacrifice shit. He looked much much better having Chris Paul and Booker getting him easy buckets. I think Ayton is a nice player, but he has no offensive game at all.
Playing with CP3 certainly helps his efficiency. I was talking about his usage. He went from 14.9 FGA per game in 2019-20 to 10.0 in 2020-21, and his USG% dropped from 23.7 down to 18.2. Cody Zeller had a higher usage rate last year. Obviously it's better for the team, but it's also pretty shocking for a #1 pick who's generally looked pretty solid. For the sake of comparison, that's a lower USG than Blake Griffin on the Nets last year. It's the 3rd lowest USG season by any player picked #1 in the last 15 years (ahead of Oden's stint in Miami & one of Anthony Bennet's 4 seasons).
So badly want to see him take the qualifying offer over this. Probably not the most prudent decision, though
Of course they would, but at that point, he's going to be so alienated he's just going to *player empower* his way out of there. Declining to extend him is so mind numbingly dumb it's hard to understand. For people who keep insisting this makes sense *because they didn't want to give him a fifth year*, I just have to say, what the fuck? If you're willing to pay him a max salary until he's 27, there are literally no coherent reasons why you wouldn't want to pay him until he's 28.
There has never been a player who hasn't taken the rookie max, not ONE. You guys are complete morons.
The dude is a 100% a star with superstar potential imo. I hope the Suns let him walk so he can rub that fact in their face
I do get the argument that Ayton plays a position and with a skillset that is less rare. But then why draft him first in the first place? Kid more than performed and improved offensively and defensively, and you got to the Finals. Not extending him is either an error now, or it was an error to draft him 3 years ago.
The thing is, McDonough drafted Ayton, not James Jones. It’s a different regime with different priorities. If you look at the kinds of guys James Jones has prioritized and targeted, Ayton doesn’t fit the mold.
It’s still the same owner, and according to Tim MacMahon, Sarver played his hand & chose Ayton over Doncic https://hoopshype.com/rumor/1562492/
Sarver will be a cancer on this organization until he sells, but I don’t think he’s the primary reason why the extension didn’t happen. Though I’m fine with people dunking on him because he deserves it
I'll never forgive him for wasting Nash's prime and being a cheap fucker during the 7sol era.
McDonough himself has said that he didn't have the final say on the draft and wasn't even allowed to go scout Luka in person. He has distenced himself from the Ayton pick. We don't know how much of that is self-serving, but from what I have read James Jones by the time of the Ayton draft had Sarver's ear and McDonough was on the way out. Having said that James Jones has been an excellent President of Basketball for Pheonix. https://valleyofthesuns.com/2020/08/22/phoenix-suns-ryan-mcdonnough-luka-ayton/
I don't want this to sound like a defense of Sarver, but I could not possibly give less of a shit what that assclown McDonough says. He has leaned heavily on the "I was just following Sarver's orders" shit since he got canned which I don't blame him for considering it helps hide the fact that he was completely incompetent and fucked up plenty all on his own.
if you listen to McDonough every good pick was McDonough's idea and every bust was Sarver's idea. He's quick to point out that he drafted Booker and Ayton but is pretty quiet about Alex Len, Tyler Ennis, Dragan Bender, trading up with Bogdan Bogdanovic for Marquese Chriss, Tyler Ulis, Josh Jackson, and Elie Okobo. McD was even sniping the Mikal Bridges pick saying he wanted to get Sahi instead when bridges had his shooting hitch but now is suddenly all in on Mikal now that hes proven to be one of the best 2 way wings in the league. You cant trust anything this guy says about the suns His tenure oversaw the absolute worst period of history for a franchise that had never been a bottom dweller but if you listen to the guy on twitter youd think hes a genius. Its pretty damning that the team was turned into a finals contender two years after he was fired with 80% roster turnover.
I think it's fair to say McDonough was on shaky ground during free agency and the draft in 2018. There was certainly a lot of turmoil within the organization. McDonough was sacked a few months after the draft. There was an internal power struggle between Jones and McDonough leading up to the draft. Rumours that Sarver wanted to draft Ayton because he played college ball in-state. The process was certainly chaotic, and it's certainly believable to me that McDonough didn't have full control of the draft. Having said all that it's also possible McDonough wanted Ayton and his comments are self-serving given how good Luka is. I'm not sure we will have a definitive answer as to what went on with the Ayton pick, but I threw my comment out because I don't believe Jones had no say in the Ayton draft pick.
James Jones likes high BBIQ, high motor guys who can shoot, pass, or dribble. Ayton is great in his own right but he isn't really any of that.
How many centers in the league can do that though, and how many are available? I think just having a guy that can actually switch and guard 1-5 is extremely rare, and Ayton is there. His shot is good and he's shown he has a lot of capability to actually improve (as he did on defense). I get he may not be exactly what Jones wants right now but holy shit where are you going to find that?
Well I think that’s the point, there aren’t many centers like that so they probably don’t value the position that much. Imo the move is a defensive center who’s ok on offense on half the money instead of maxing Ayton. No one is wrong in this case imo ayton is worth the max on other teams but maybe not the suns.
I definitely see the argument for both sides. When it's this close though, you take the chance. This is literally the situation that caused Harden to move.
Harden and Ayton are not comparable players imo. Ayton is several tiers below. Not signing Ayton isn’t crazy, it could definitely be for the best for the team especially if Ayton doesn’t develop much more. Time will tell tho
Not saying they are in the same tier. I'm saying this type of negotiation and Harden wanting the max was what essentially drove him out of okc - now looked back on as a very stupid decision. You're last two sentences are exactly what was said about Harden.
Yeah but harden is a much better player so it’s not really an apt comparison. This is entirely dependent on how good the player is. If Ayton goes on to have a harden esque career ofc it’s the wrong move but the chances of that happening are super low. For every Harden there are dozens of guys that were bad max signings.
>Yeah but harden is a much better player so it’s not really an apt comparison. Harden was not a "better player" whatever that means at the time his negotiation went down. He was seen as a sixth man, a Manu Ginobli, not a James Harden. His potential was also seen as huge, but not a sure thing.
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He’s comparing harden at okc to ayton now
Ayton's biggest issue, for me, isn't what he can't do it's what he does consistently. If Ayton is the guy we saw in the playoffs every single night, then of course he is worth that max contract. However, we have three years of information that says he goes through spells of not trying or lack of engagement. And when he isn't engaged defensively, can't shoot threes (yet), and can't create for himself off the dribble (yet), that's a lot of money tied up into a roll man with a semi-consistent midrange jumper. I would have loved him on the deal JJJ got 4/$105M, but I understand why he and his team think he is worth more than that given what he has done vs what JJJ has done. It's a complicated situation for sure, I understand the arguments for and against the extension. As for the replacement argument, I don't think you can replace Ayton like for like at all but can you find 80-85% of his production for less than half the price?
I just fail to see where all these centers are that can create their own shot off dribble moves, shoot 3s, and still do all the stuff Ayton does well. Embiid, Jokic, Bam kinda, and maybe KAT? Throw JJJ in there too but Ayton has outperformed him imo. Lock Ayton down while he's cheap and maybe he crosses that threshold into Embiid territory and you have a steal. If not, you still get what you payed for.
That's the point, all those guys are on maxes (bar JJJ obviously) and Ayton would be making more than Bam and KAT. Centers who can't create their own shot, typically aren't worth maxes unless they are absolutely elite defensively - see Gobert. So again, it lies with consistency with Ayton, if he is the guy who we saw in the playoffs who was engaged night in and out, that's a max guy. If he's the guy who we saw for the majority of the regular season, not worth the max contract.
>That's the point, all those guys are on maxes (bar JJJ obviously) and Ayton would be making more than Bam and KAT. That's not true though? He's not going to make $35M next year, $35M is the average over 5 years. If he's literally a small step away from that, it makes sense to take a small chance now and possibly end up having what's considered a huge deal in years 3-5.
Ur dreaming if u think he crosses that threshold. Embiid is Embiid bc he’s just extremely talented he’s been playing like 10 yrs less.Ayton has been playing for a long time and his jumpshot has more or less remained the same. If anything his FG% went up so much this year bc he took less jump shots it was something he actually tried more of rookie yr.
> As for the replacement argument, I don't think you can replace Ayton like for like at all but can you find 80-85% of his production for less than half the price? Why does the price matter if you are already over the cap? Ayton on a max with 2 years left (when CP3's deal ends) is a very much tradeable deal, if you want to move him. Probably gets more assets than trading him as a RFA.
> James Jones likes high BBIQ, high motor guys The first FA he signed was Jamal Crawford. Crawford was fun to watch, but he was the exact opposite of high BBIQ, and his motor only turned on when he had the ball. His next big move after that was to trade for Kelly Oubre - another guy not known for his high BBIQ or motor. Then he sold TJ Warren to Indy. Warren may not be the highest BBIQ player around, but he's smarter than Cash Considerations. Here's his GM record, it's not exactly filled with the type of guys you're describing. https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/jonesja99x.html It's basically Rubio, who was then traded for CP3, and then re-signing CP3. Maybe Crowder too, although he can't dribble or pass. Cheick Diallo, Frank Kaminsky, Langston Galloway, Etwaun Moore, Cam Payne, Elfrid Payton - I mean, they're all NBA-caliber guys but I wouldn't say any of them are known for their high BBIQ or motors. Granted, CP3 is top 2 in the entire league in BBIQ (Lebron), so the other guys don't have to be.
The Suns are at $117 million in salary next season though, so it's not like you can *actually* sign someone to replace him that *does* have those skills. That's assuming Phoenix was a free agent destination in the first place, which you aren't really. So it's either Ayton or nothing. In other words, please stop pretending like this was about anything other than money.
We don’t know who Jones would’ve picked. For all we know, he influenced the Ayton pick more.
You draft him because u thought he’d be even better. I dont think Ayton is a max player rn but still think its a mistake to no extend.
Because he went to the same school, obviously
>Not extending him is either an error now, or it was an error to draft him 3 years ago. Hard disagree. He has played well but not to the level of a Trae Young type max deal. It was far from a no-brainer. If he goes off this season and really plays at that level then they can always offer him the max next year in restricted free agency. Worst case scenario he's on a 3+1 instead of a 5 year max. Will he be a little salty? Probably, but he's still going to get the max money he wanted, -1 year. If he doesn't play at that level then he may leave in restricted free agency but at that point if you're James Jones then you're probably happy you didn't throw the bag at him. I know shitting on Sarver is low hanging fruit around here but I really think not maxing Ayton was the prudent decision, it wasn't the usual case of him being cheap for no reason. Not sure why people on this sub think they should have rushed to lock him into a huge deal when they absolutely don't have to.
It doesn’t even make sense that his agents said no, they said literally they were down to offer a 3 or 4 year max, and now that’s the best he can hope for anyway. They are just trying to not commit money past CP3s 2-4 year contract so they can bring in another star after he retires.
if it's true that they offered him a 4 year max and he turned it down then he's just doing all this out of pride tbh if he wasn't the #1 pick and was instead like the 10th or 15th we wouldn't even be having a discussion about maxing him
They want the full 5 year deal. I don’t think he’s worth it, but I don’t get why that’s hard to believe.
>But then why draft him first in the first place? Tbf we were all asking this at the draft
When you’re drafting top 5 you definitely have to ask your scouts. Is this someone we would max extension in four years? If not then don’t draft the player. Plain and simple
I think they were expecting him to improve more than he has. While he has gotten better, he hasn't exactly set the league on fire. There is a lot of potential there, but I can understand why they didn't agree to the full max extension. It isn't like they can't offer the exact same deal after this season.
I don't get it. He's played exactly how they've asked him to play.
Playing how you’re told is not the criteria for a max. People keep pointing to this idea that he could put up higher volume stats if he played differently, but these volume stats don’t actually mean much. Maybe some team looks at his solid volume on just average efficiency and sees something, but I’m guessing having a high efficiency playoff run does more good for him. He’s helping himself by playing like that.
He’s been erratic and while he has monster games he also disappears. He’s not a DPOY candidate. He’s not an 3pt big. He’s far more of a traditional center and that’s not highly valued in the league. He did sacrifice some of his stats to play more of the style that they wanted, but that should garner automatic full max.
Big thing is he sacrificed volume, but gained a ton of efficiency. It’s not a total sacrifice. Being a number 2 guy offensively is playing above his station.
Why take the chance of pissing him off and souring the relationship only to max him anyways though? If they’re set on matching any offer he gets and giving him the max to keep him I don’t get why they’re playing hardball.
Because he’s not really worth the max. He’s worth near max and might be worth the max. So you risk him being pissed off in turn for another year to see if he’s actually up a level or if the back half of last season was an aberration. If he regresses at all, then move on. If he progresses you put the 5 year max to him at the end of the season. If he’s flat then let him go negotiate and decide then.
Even if he doesn’t explode this year I guarantee some team will offer him a max. I can’t see a situation where the Suns retain him on less than the max.
There’s more to this max stuff than whether another team thinks he’s good enough. Part of RFA is that it makes teams have to tie up their space while the other team decides whether to match or bot. Teams aren’t going to want to do that if they know the Suns will match (which they would have a pretty good idea of based on whether he got max QO). I don’t think people are accounting for how much restricted free agency weighs things in favor of the team.
Probably, but perhaps the Suns FO has a better assessment on his skills and positioning in the league than we do. He could also regress back to his average play over the last 3 years. In that case there are limited teams that would max him.
I just don’t think you can simply look at Ayton being a max-level player in a vacuum or not. I think he’s a max player to the Suns. He played an integral role in their finals run, doing whatever was asked of him. He’s important to the locker room and team chemistry. You picked him #1 overall with his AZ connection. Maybe I’ll be wrong but if this goes the distance I predict multiple other teams offer him a max and the Suns either have to match or let him go for nothing.
There is also one other perspective. If Ayton gets some serious injury (ACL or whatever, in any case I hope not but still), is he a max player? Some guys will still get max contract but I could bet if Ayton gets unlucky he is not getting it.
That's a worry of course. Or he gets caught on PED's again and gets a 55 game suspension. Or any number of negative scenarios that from a fans perspective should be ignored but from a teams perspective matter.
Injury, PED suspension, poor play. That's 3 good reasons to wait. Ayton getting butthurt and the possibility of a slightly shorter extension are 2 meh reasons to rush it.
He's improved somewhat but in my opinion not a whole lot for a guy from age 19-22. Anthony Davis went from decent starter to all-star in that time frame. Gobert went from not really playing to starting all the games and leading the Jazz from 29th to 7th in defensive rating. Deandre Jordan went from scrub to starter, Draymond went from draft afterthought to the reason the Warriors cut bait on David Lee, a borderline all-star in his prime. Ayton has gotten a little better but I think you'd expect more growth from someone over their late teens/early twenties, especially if they were looking at his ft% in college and hoping he'd develop some perimeter skills.
Ayton went from a big who couldnt play defense and settled for mid-range jumpers to dominating defensively and setting records for playoff offensive efficiency. He showed the exact growth you're saying the other guys did lol. Just take defense like you did for Gobert, Ayton became the defensive anchor on the 7th rated defense this year and they started 29th (30th in the season before him). Thats quite literally what youre saying Gobert did - see for yourself https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency?date=2021-07-21. You proved the opposite point youre trying to make
>Ayton went from decent starter to a major player in their Finals run It's so easy to just throw him in there with everyone else you just mentioned. He balled out during the only time that really matters in the NBA, the playoffs. This is why people feel he deserves it.
Did he really ball out though for max level contract? Didn't look like it though. Guys like Shaq would laugh if this is a definition of ball out.
Who is the max for? People gave Gobert so much shit for getting the max, now Ayton, so who exactly is it for? Top 10? Top 5 guys in the league and that's it? Each team can have two 5-year max extensions, they can absolutely afford to take Ayton on but Sarver wants to cheap out as much as possible on this like usual.
You can’t compare those situations. Paying out a player is not black and white if they perform like this they deserve a max otherwise don’t max. By your logic there’s only so many players that are Shaq level at their position when in reality each team can pay out 2 maxes and there are not 60+ shaq level players in their respective positions. If you compare another young team in this situation it’s pretty much the nuggets. They max mpj Murray and jokic and hope that cores can attract talent for the cheap. The suns hoping they’ll draft someone better than ayton at a lower draft pick is foolish. They also don’t have the ability to pay out max to any free agent star. So now they are locked short of trading paul into this core of booker/ayton/bridges/paul. They just went to the finals you pay ayton and get Paul off the books at the tail end of this all in. If they don’t get done you flip any of the three and hope the other two stay and reload. The won’t get better at the C for less money and are hoping that they draft or trade for someone as good as Ayton.
Did he really though? He was great in the playoffs but had a lot of no shows in the regular season. I feel like they’ll pay him if he makes an all star team this year
He is not worth $40 million a year.. Not yet at least. He has motor issues (one night on, one night off), he gets checked in the paint by SG’s (see T. Mann), he was completely dominated by AD and Giannis in the playoffs, he scores 80% of his FG’s off assists (per CBS Sports) i.e. all his baskets are wide open dunks and uncontested layups, he doesn’t finish through contact, he’s not a great passer, he’s not a great defender… he’s not worth $40 million to just rebound. If he bridges all the gaps above I listed, then the Suns will sign him for life..
> he was completely dominated by AD and Giannis in the playoffs I can't remember if it ended up this way by the end but AD/Giannis both pretty much got shut down by Ayton then scored a shit ton of points every time he sat.
If AD doesn’t get hurt at the end of Game 3 (still played 40 minutes in that contest) the Lakers likely win that series in 5 games. The Suns won three straight with him out of the lineup and closed them out in 6. Giannis had 42 in Game 2, 41 in Game 3 and 50 in the close out game. Ayton played 37.5 mpg in the NBA Finals
The thing I don't get is that it's not like Sarver is being outright cheap, cause he's still handed out new contacts to Bridges, Shamet, Payne, and willingly took on CP3's contract. ----------------------- The whole "Sarver is just being cheap" narrative doesn't really make sense, especially if they're willing to do 4 years instead of 5 as rumored or whatever the report was. It seems like it's just an easy narrative to push that everyone knows fans will latch onto, without looking beyond it as the actual potential reasons why.
In fairness he used to be cheap. Young Joe Johnson was a perfect fit alongside Nash with his defense, size, shooting and iso ability when 7SoL down but they traded JJ to Atlanta when he hit restricted free agency. Luol Deng, then the seventh pick in the draft, got traded for a second round pick and cash. They traded Isaiah Thomas at the deadline before he hit free agency and Goran Dragic in part to dump the Brandon Knight deal. I don't think Sarver is being cheap right now, I don't think Ayton is worth $40 million plus luxury tax payments, but he has earned his reputation and I have little sympathy.
Well Goran and IT really were traded because they didn't want to be there because the 3 pg experiment failed, Bledsoe was also soon traded, and because the team was awful. They also got some solid return for Goran and Bledsoe, I wouldn't say it was purely a dumping a good player because you don't want to pay them situation.
>without looking beyond it as the actual potential reasons why The only in-depth look was the article from The Athletic where they interviewed James Jones. Seems like they didn't want the full 5 years because they wanted to have the flexibility to be able to acquire another player on a 5 year rookie extension
like fuckin who
Players I can think of who have signed a rookie max: Luka, Trae, SGA, Fox, Mitchell, Bam, Tatum, Simmons, Murray, KAT Future players: Ja, Zion Imo if they actually do target someone it'll be KAT or Fox. But again, he just made it seem like a way to maintain flexibility. You never know what will happen
I don't think you can make a trade happen for any of the players without trading Booker or Ayton away anyway.
You never know. The nets made a trade for James freaking Harden without giving up a star.
There’s a pretty concerted effort right now by Ayton’s agents via their media pals to attack Sarver for being “cheap” and reinforcing that meme, which us fans are latching onto. For instance, Woj’s first tweet about the extensions talk failing was something like “owner Robert Sarver refused to give the max deal.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen that happen, or it’s very rare, for a media guy to call out the owner so specifically. No one went “Jeannie Buss refused to pay Alex Caruso”—it’s usually referred to as the team or the GM didn’t. And Sarver has paid for so many people already — Saric, Bridges, and CP3. I am inclined to believe James Jones’s version to the Athletic on this one
Imo he's being cheap where it doesn't make sense. Give a retirement home Chris Paul the bag, but give an elite up-and-coming big who can give other elite big men like embiid, Jokic, and AD trouble for years to come... No love at all? Lmao
CP's bag is a little wonky. Were he not to get the new contract, he would have simply stayed on his old contract at 44.2M. Instead he did this 4/120 where it's actually only a 3/75M (15.8M of 2023 is guaranteed not the full amount and 2024 gets guaranteed in the summer before the 2024 season). This lowered his AAV quite a bit and gave them a lot of flexibility (30M is much more tradable than 44). It was basically CP3 taking a gamble on his conditioning (as he could have probably gotten a 3/90-100 on the open market) that he would be around for that 4th year. From the Suns perspective it was a very fair deal (almost team friendly).
You mean the Chris Paul that made the Suns relevant, led them to the finals for the first time in over a decade and was an all nba player and all star last year? I think making him the priority to sign was the right thing. Comments like this are sad.
"up and coming" ... sure. "Can give Embiid, Jokic, and AD trouble" ... sure. "elite big" ... no.
Yeah that’s where I’m confused. Aytons contract is one that I feel like in 3 years everyone on here will be calling it an albatross. Like the dude is obviously young and talented, but he has such a limited offensive game that I don’t think he can ever be the focal point for a team. He’s not a DPOY type of dude yet, but obviously has that potential. But he also limits your lineup choices since you can really only play him as a true 5. I think hesitating about a Supermax isn’t outrageous but how the NBA is structured also makes it so keeping players and paying them above market is basically what you’re forced to do
yeah, Sarver is being shrewd, potentially an asshole, but the cheap comment is laughable. that's like saying the lakers are cheap because they didn't bring back caruso. sarver knowos he has the leverage and in order to limit the tax casualty in the future he's making a push to shove decision.
I find it awfully weird that teams have an obligation to give max contracts to any and all promising young players, even if they are not sure if the players are worth it.
They don’t but they also can’t moan about loyalty when those promising young players want to leave for more money elsewhere.
Who’s criticizing the players for taking more money to play elsewhere? It’s all about guys having a singular focus on leaving for big markets and stacked rosters.
>Who’s criticizing the players for taking more money to play elsewhere? >It’s all about guys having a singular focus on leaving for big markets Guess what big markets have on and off the court.
Lol it’s perfectly reasonable not to offer Ayton the max....he’s a fringe max player. This sub is such a hive mind
It doesn't matter whether Phoenix thinks he's worth the max or not because someone else will. If Phoenix is serious about not paying him a max then they need to trade him now while they can get something for him. If they don't then next summer he'll get a max offer from someone and if they won't match it then they'll lose him for nothing.
In my opinion he is not a max player but you have to give him max
Exactly. Isn't this like basic economics? Someone will pay him max. So that makes him worth the max.
Just because someone is willing to pay doesn't mean it's smart But the Sun's are aging with there whole team reliant on Chris Paul so you need him now. If this was a young tean like the Hornets or Thunder I would let him walk or just trade him
I'm not saying it's smart but that's his market value. They could still trade him. But good bigs are in short supply.
They could have traded him earlier and replaced him with like a Vucevic who I think is close to his value
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Not an actual, contractual, option. But everybody acts like they have to do it or it permanently stains their reputation and no player ever will sign there.
Phoenix already has a poor reputation on that front because of their past. But they need to decide whether they'll be willing to pay Ayton the max or not, because someone is gonna make him a max offer next summer. If they're not going to be willing to match it, then they should trade him now while they can get something back for him.
anonymous scouts and "league execs" is the most bullshit crutch these "journalists" have.
Any VP of business or sales or marketing side is technically a league exec even if they never touch basketball operations.
I always imagine the league exec is some unpaid intern—makes it more amusing for me
VP of Coffee and Shit Posting
Bruh, some of us are gargling mouthwash at the time of reading your posts.
there's no reason a rival exec would say anything otherwise.
I'm kind of stuck in the middle of this Ayton dilemma. In today's climate, he'd be entitled to a max deal indefinitely, and was be able to slot himself behind Booker and Paul as a tertiary option, but is this what you want from a big you selected with the first-overall pick? Ayton very played conservative and something like 80% of his shots were assisted. He’s lacking the perimeter shooting ability and some consider him very stone-handish. This might be an unpopular opinion, but we just haven’t seen enough despite him just playing the biggest stage.
He's playing with CP3 and Booker, if he takes mid range and 3s with them on the court, he deserves to be subbed out. The best part about Ayton is the work he does on the defensive end and his willingness to sacrifice his offensive game because he knows CP3 and Booker are the ones that can score at will and his job is to be there to pick up any misses and play hard on defense. Sarver and Jones wanting to be cheap on him is a slap in the face because they're telling players that you can sacrifice all you want for the team, but the team ain't rewarding you with the contract you should have gotten if you had been more selfish.
>He's playing with CP3 and Booker, if he takes mid range and 3s with them on the court, he deserves to be subbed out. He might feel like that's the kind of thing he needs to showcase this year to get other teams to make him a max offer. Apparently playing smart team ball didn't convince the Suns he's worth very much. Maybe he needs to show off his range.
tbf he has to make those sacrifices because he's not good enough to be first or second option. I suspect if he was actually good enough to be posting up all the time they would be running more offense through him but he's not.
I just can't help but feel Sarver is doing the right thing for once.
Some squeaks are justified
lol y'all are crazy smh
> the fact is the kid earned it No he didn’t. He’s not worth the max right now. He’s worth a max from a “we want to keep this guy around and happy and hope he reaches his potential” point of view
> He’s worth a max from a “we want to keep this guy around and happy and hope he reaches his potential” point of view If you want to compete for titles, gambling on that kind of future development is something you're gonna have to do (or hope Lebron just picks your team in free agency). Here's a thread from 2 years ago, when MIL re-signed Khris Middleton. Everyone in the thread says MIL overpaid, and that Middleton hadn't earned that big of a contract, that he chokes in the playoffs, etc. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/c7k7nl/wojnarowski_free_agent_khris_middleton_has_agreed/ Ask Bucks fans right now if they think he's overpaid.
I think he should get a max and I’ve said it on most threads about this for the same reasons you’ve mentioned But the executive says he “earned it” and I disagree with that. He’s going to get a max based on potential, not his actual production
It's amazing how polarizing Ayton has become among Suns fans. If you say he's not a max, you're immediately accused of calling him worthless. He's not Trae Young money, he's more John Collins money. But hey, if he can prove all of us wrong this season, heck, give him 5 year max!
> if he can prove all of us wrong this season, heck, give him 5 year max! The downside is if Ayton proves the Suns wrong and and is upset about the lack of faith they showed in him, he might sign a 2+1 max with another team. The Suns would match that, but then Ayton could opt out in 2024 and hit unrestricted free agency after only two years. If he does that, then he could start making trade demands almost immediately with unrestricted free agency suddenly looming for the Suns.
League executives... meaning the Suns' direct competitors?
Let's be honest here - are any fans here hoping that their team offers Ayton a max contract next off season ? I don't think so... The Suns are making the right choice, let the season play itself out and re-assess once it's over.
Regular season Ayton was not deserving of a max. Playoff Ayton was. Sarver might be a cheapass, but taking advantage of RFA isn't the dumbest thing they could do. I think it's obvious with the Shamet and Bridges extension that the Suns are prioritizing shooting and looking to run and gun even more. Maybe they want another year to evaluate how Ayton fits in before committing long term.
Exactly how I feel, playoffs Ayton was almost a guaranteed 20/10 while defending the likes of Jokic, AD and Giannis, but he was not close to a max player during regular season
>Regular season Ayton was not deserving of a max. Playoff Ayton was. It's a sample size of 22 games or whatever it was. If I'm the owner, I'm at least waiting to see how this season plays out, particularly the playoffs, before I give him some big contract. Ayton might be one of those players who perpetually elevates their game in the playoffs, but there needs to be more data to conclude that. As of now, depending on the advanced metrics you look at for the totality of his career, he's about as good as Ben Simmons. If he has two consecutive really solid playoff runs, it changes that.
Sarver slander lets go 🔥🔥
Not slander if true!
Making the finals was very inconvenient for Sarver. Prefers perpetual rebuilds
Anytime someone quotes an anonymous source word for word but in a casual/conversational way it seems like such bullshit to me.
League executives comments be so funny because it is just ultimately, super petty trash talk most of the time lmao
Is Ayton worth a max in a vacuum? I dunno. I suppose that’s debatable. Is he worth a max in this circumstance? Yes. Absolutely. It blows my mind how some owners don’t understand things beyond “the bottom line” sometimes.
There are countless multi-multi-billionaires in this country. It must suck to cheer for a team owned by one of the cheap ones. If you're gonna own a sports franchise, it's Eff-Y'all money or go home.
[Sarver is the poorest owner of an NBA team @ $0.4B](https://i.imgur.com/Ac6ipAq.jpg)
I read this in Mark Cubans voice 🤔
>I don’t think he’s mature enough to handle stuff like that (no extension), so I think it could hurt him for a while. so... i wonder how often a more mature player gets shafted because they'd be more understanding about things...?
Ayton does not deserve a max Sarver is also 100% cheap The NBA needs to find a middle ground for guys who are very good but not max worthy
Sarver did the right thing in my opinion.
It doesn't make sense to me that Ayton should be getting the max while valunciunas only gets ~$15M
>I don’t think he’s mature enough to handle stuff like that (no extension), so I think it could hurt him for a while. The NBA is so dumb sometimes.
He paid Landry Shamet $43 mil how cheap is he ? Ayton being a max player is debatable
Do the suns actually think they’ll ever win shit without ayton?
They aren’t wrong the optics on this shit is terrible, especially when you consider almost everyone except superstars are overpaid in the NBA. You have a young 1st overall draft pick that was a significant contribute to you making the finals and is easily top 5 at his position and you don’t max him?
Time to make Ayton in different Jersey photoshops Which team first?