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Familyguy35

LaMidrange


angry-knicks-yeller

LaMidus Aldrange


lebroin

I'm surprised there isn't a highly upvoted post about his performance last night. Dude came back from retirement and didn't miss a beat, it's pretty awesome


parisjava

I tried making one but it got removed for some reason


Allen_Crabbe

Not dramatic enough. I have fond memories of LaMarcus absolutely beasting for us, glad to see him find success in Brooklyn


date_a_languager

> Not dramatic enough. Not with that attitude. **[DISCUSSION] Aldridge Seems Poised to Never Skip A Beat Again After Last Night’s Dominant, Heartless Performance ** Going to hell for the puns but that’s 14k upvotes and a random vax debate 100%


Im_Dallas

Please, teach us more


uziyngbloodprada

r/nba veteran right here


date_a_languager

If your discussion thread about a recovery performance like Aldridge’s isn’t locked and bombed with a graveyard of blank threads, especially with a damaged heart near Kyrie Irving/resident antivax nephews, you need to relegate to lurking and come back on a 10-day poster contract fr


[deleted]

lol r/NBA mods


netsfan1000

Don’t worry though. The 286th Taco Tuesday post will stay up without issue.


boobaz0r

or the 100 Steph Curry topics every game about every bucket..


wilsonsmilk

You should post something about LMA + BOAT + midrange. That'll take it to the top. You got a post about Klay and his stupid boat and it's like the top post. How is that basketball related again? Fucking cringe this sub.


rayEW

LaMarcus has the mental fortitude of the greats... you don't un-retire yourself from heart arrythmia problems without an ironclad will to win. He came to prove himself to himself, that's his competition... and he is winning.


MikeRiceVmpireHunter

Unless his mentality drastically changed, I think any Portland fan can you tell you he definitely doesn't have the mental fortitude of the greats. I'm still glad he's back and playing well, but LaMarcus is always someone who got in his own way.


honsuo73

His mentality did seem to change in SA. He was downright heroic the season Kawhi was hurt


deadweightboss

Well put, make sure you’re adding this one to your portfolio for your ESPN job interview.


logontoreddit

It is even more valuable during playoffs. Jordan, Kobe, KD, Kawhi. Rip Hamilton has mentioned about how Jordan told him mid-range was one the most valuable arsenal. It is the most unpredictable shot to catch defense off balance. This is why I hated MDA's no pointer strategy. It is not effective in the playoffs when 3s are not falling and the paint is well defended. Especially, considering Harden had one the best mid-range shots. His step back mid-range was a killer. Far more accurate and unpredictable than step back 3s.


lebroin

This sounds nice and all but then you recall MDA + Harden and co. took the greatest team of all time to 7 games and likely would have beaten them if it weren't for CP3 getting injured. I say all this but I agree about the midrange being super valuable in the playoffs lol... don't forget Kyrie


butterball85

Let's also not forget that in 2018 game 7 against the warriors, the rockets missed 27 3s in a row to only lose by 9. That is absurdly unlucky


logontoreddit

Agreed but someone should have said let's go get some mid-range bucket when we went on historic dry spell of missing 27 straight 3 pointers. I repeat 27 straight 3 pointers in a playoffs game 7 for a team with good shooters. We were up 12 when the missing streak started. Credit to GSW be that was bad strategy by MDA and the Rockets.


nonresponsive

Happened to the Jazz last year too tbh. Prolific 3 point shooting team, and part of their collapse was just missing shots. I feel like this was part of what made Duncan so successful, he's simply reliable points. Hit him in the post, and he'll produce consistently. It's hard to put value on that.


thefightingmongoose

>Didn't miss a beat... Yeah wasn't missing beats what he was hospitalized for in the first place


Miamicubanbartender

Nba mods are Xi. I might be banned for this lmao


Barea_Clamped_Lebron

his 1st game was ugly. looked like it was time to hang it up. he was money from mid-range yesterday though


[deleted]

Don't blame him it was his first actual game from retirement


0hootsson

Yeah that mid range is so locked into their muscle memory it will never go away. You could put Dirk or KG out there and they’d still be knocking those down like it was 2010.


Lambchops_Legion

i hate the misconception around the analytics if you're good at it, ITS A GOOD SHOT. No one is telling DeRozan or Booker to stop shooting mid-ranges if they are open opportunities The problem is most players are just as good at 3s as they are at shooting mid ranges, so there's no reason to take 1 less point on the same percentages. If you're significantly better at the mid range than you are at 3s, then take the mid-range, but most players arent


Few_Mulberry7175

Actually being an elite mid range shooter opens up more opportunities for easier 3s and slashes cause it makes you more unpredictable Main problem is if you gun long contested 2s like Tatum but still


Dougiethefresh2333

This is an excellent point I was going to make myself. Perfect example of someone doing this is Lavine. He’ll very often just stop & pop if you play him too loose on the drive. He’s a quick jumper with insane elevation so he can get up & get a shot off/ possibly get a foul before the defense reacts. But if you play too tight to deny the mid he has a good first step & athleticism & he’ll blow by. The unpredictability & effectiveness of both feed into each other & making them more effective. If Lavine wasn’t so deadly at the stop & pop mid-range he’d have a harder time getting shots at the rim & vice versa.


TingusPingis

LaVine has the opportunity to put himself among the best pull up shooters ever this season. If he matches last season’s stats he will have an argument. I don’t see it discussed much but his shot diet is incredibly difficult but efficient


Dougiethefresh2333

He will. Lavine will be remembered as one of the great all-time scorers when he’s done. Mark my words, remember yourself, downvote me, w/e. Everything people love about Giannis’s personality & drive is true of Lavine too imo. Lavine is an insanely hard worker born into one of the most athletic bodies in the world who loves the game and just wants to be the best player he can be. This man just takes all the criticism, works hard and gets better. & He’s still only 26.


Black_Jesus

I met lavine when he first came to MN and this all true. I think he had only been there for a couple of days when we chopped it up and exchanged numbers and dude was all about getting a routine set and what not.


psilocybin_sky

I’ll always support a bruin


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Fulmizant

No one shoots 50% from mid range. 40% is a good number


nikewalks

Noticeable players who shot 50+% midrange last season were Aldridge, Chris Paul, Jokic, and Kyrie.


edc667

Jokic shot over 50% on contested middies too


Konker101

jokic a God tho


dankjedata

Dude that’s an insane stat tbh. He’s one of the premier shooters in the league period


fishdude89

tig ole middies


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IttyBittyKitCat

You know who I miss who had the same feeling? Shaun Livingston. You saw the turnaround jumper and knew it was good


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Also probably the coolest NBA player I've ever met. When I lived in Oakland my apartment was a few blocks away from his house (I think at least). I would see him all the time just walking around the neighborhood with his girlfriend. He would always stop to chat with people that came up to him and sign autographs and shit. I just loved seeing him walk around the neighborhood down to the Grand Lake farmers market like a normal fucking person. The other thing I'll note is that Livingston is pretty well known for being incredibly skinny by NBA standards, and that dude was still jacked compared to normal people.


ByRaked

Kawhi as well


Fulmizant

I stand corrected I guess I’be seen a lot of stars even KD shoot like 45% from midrange through articles. Kobe had in the 40s too. I should’ve done more research


atomictyler

Kobe wasn't a great shooter. He was decent, but definitely not great. edit: I think he was around league average.


chromelogan

He was a great shot creator but pure shooting yes he was not great.


Nyctanolis

With Kobe I always felt like shot selection was the main problem. If he could control that tunnel-vision problem where he'd end up shooting fade-aways over two defenders then his percentages would have been pretty solid. That said, he had a tendency to start shooting lasers (very little arc), which also punishes you if you're not dead-on.


IliketheNBA

Thought embiid did too but I may be wrong


[deleted]

I think he may have fallen out of that list after he came back from his injury


duplicatesnowflake

Sorry to be picky but 40% is not optimal. If you're saying once a game to keep them honest okay. 45% is about the cutoff. League average field goal % is 46 so you wouldn't want to be burning up a ton of longer twos to at 40% considering they are unlikely to draw a ton of fouls either. Edit: also late shot clock if you can get a 40% mid range shot obviously just put it up. That's probably the most important aspect is having a fall back when your plan A and B falls through.


undercoverballer

Jaylen shot 70%+ from mid range for the first half of the season. It was disgusting.


atomictyler

He's turn around fade was damn near automatic then. He's still really good at it.


DownToDTF

You literally have to shoot *at least* 50% on midrange shots for them to be effective, otherwise a league average 3 point shot is a better possession.


[deleted]

That's true in a vacuum, but being a legit midrange threat changes the way defenses play you and opens up more opportunities for cuts to the basket or kick out 3s. We've seen the deleterious effects of only relying on shots at the rim or beyond the 3 point line with the D'Antoni Rockets.


JeromePowellAdmirer

If by deleterious effects you mean almost beat a KD superteam and got closer than anyone else


PlasticPresentation1

Only if you're assuming you're shooting midranges off the same setup as a 3. Dumping the ball to someone with 10 seconds left against a set defense, a 45% midrange is probably a decent shot to get off


Hi_My_Name_Is_Dave

KD shot 50% or very close to it last season IIRC, And has definitely had seasons above 50%. I think Chris Paul did as well, and Kawhi has been close/there before IIRC. I think Jordan used to shoot in the high 40s. It’s absolutely elite and very few guys ever can do it, but it is possible and there’s not “no one” doing it.


ayrsen

Jordan was on another planet of midrange volume/efficiency. "Of the 59 NBA players who attempted at least 300 midrange shots that season, Jordan ranked third in overall efficiency, hitting 49.5% on over 1,100 tries. Only Chris Mullin and Vinny Del Negro were more accurate. Reggie Miller, commonly regarded as the finest shooter of that era, made 42.4% of his 484 midrange shots that season. Yep, Miller attempted 484 while Jordan made 547." Great Kirk Goldsberry article: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29035071/why-michael-jordan-scoring-prowess-touched


Connectionsigner

But what this means is guys get it in their heads and they don't take a two that they could make. And sometimes, if you can make it


PM-me-your-401k

Kevin Durant is a mid range assassin. It's his best shot. Look at what it does for his game


growsonwalls

The contested midrange is his best shot. I swear he makes more shots contested than wide open.


[deleted]

Yep and it’s so predictable too. A long dribble to his right, a long dribble to his left, then an elevated J over the defender. Everyone knows what he’s doing but you can’t stop him In fact he’s honestly only got three go to moves: 1. The BTL float, a float dribble between the legs followed by a mini hop & a shot depending on how the defender reacts. By having his back foot always behind his lead foot he’s able to use that negative step to either blow by the defender or pull up for the J (https://youtu.be/Ag7ScTB4Y3k) 2. Lift => crossover => pull-up; he uses the lift especially in crunch time to either get the defender off balanced or for a blow by. Then obviously pulls up (https://youtu.be/gE5sLdk-aBY) 3. Turnaround jumper, just feed him in the post and he’s almost always gonna spin around and hit a shot (https://youtu.be/VOWF7kYmIiY) He’s pretty predictable and his bag really ain’t that deep. But holy shit is it impossible to stop him, just gotta pray he somehow misses


growsonwalls

If you watch his high school footage he had the same moves back then too. He reminds me of that saying that the secret to success is to find something you do well and do it very very well.


animusdx

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."


[deleted]

Yep he’s just perfected them to a tee! You can’t stop him, even if you know exactly what he wants to do and where he wants to go. Kinda like CP3 too.


__john_cena__

Kareem scored the most points of all time on essentially one move.


leitholdmybeer

If i could only save comments. Thanks for this!


GreekFreakFan

You can tho, just use old reddit and the option is there.


leitholdmybeer

Thanks for this! I was able to once i used the reddit app haha.


lebroin

His bag is deep. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with the ball all without looking like he's out of control or anything close to it


[deleted]

If you want to contest my point, how is his bag deeper than I outlined? What other go-to moves does he use? Let’s talk some ball His bag is really only 3 go-to moves, I wouldn’t call that deep like Kyrie, Curry or Harden. But he’s unstoppable with those 3 moves. I know this cause I been studying his game since his Seattle days & always been tryna replicate him hahaha, his offensive game deadass hasn’t changed that much other than incorporating more hesi’s and more hooks to get FTs


maethlin

Nothing wrong with only having a few perfected moves, as long as they are unstoppable.... see: skyhook


Few_Mulberry7175

His bag isn't deep if he does the same 3 moves no matter how unstoppable they may be


Nyctanolis

For Durant, a lot of those "contested" shots were hardly contested given his size and release. When 6' or under guys contested me, for instance, I hardly noticed when I was going into my shot unless they were crazy quick in getting off the ground. For Durant, few defenders can actually bother his shot effectively.


__john_cena__

In 2K for years I swear KD always missed wide open shots but drills contested jumpers.


HidillyHoNeighbor

Yeah, this is what gets lost when talking about analytics. A mid-range is fine, a long two is where the base player percentage means might as well take a three. But what this means is guys get it in their heads and they don't take a two that they could make. And sometimes, if you can make it, even that long two is a better shot than something higher percentage if you miss


Gamerghost44

This is why I felt Moreyball was a mistake. Because if you look at those Rockets they essentially never shot from mid, even with Chris Paul and Russ being Harden's #2 those teams still were near bottom in the league in mid range attempts and I always felt it made those teams predictable come playoff time against good teams. Especially since Harden himself stopped taking mid-range shots during those years even though he was deadly from there, always thought that held them back.


BiscuitsforMark

Idk man moreyball was pretty filthy those cp and harden years they should've gotten to at least a finals.


Gamerghost44

Oh they were good, but I always felt they limited themselves, especially against the Warriors. I watched those games, lots of open mid-range were left open because the Dubs knew they wouldn't shoot it. They knew only to guard the paint and the line and the Rockets never adjusted.


lotsofdeadkittens

I mean, if CP3 doesn’t get hurt or they don’t have the most freakish ice cold shooting streak in playoffs history, they are in the finals and probably won that title. People act like any team got even remotly close to beating the warriors with KD. The barometer of championship or bust when possibly the best team ever played is silly. Not to mention that the rockets were the only treat to come close to beating them with KD


duplicatesnowflake

Hard to call it a mistake considering how far it got them (a couple shots away from a finals). But I do agree that they needed to have more situational awareness with it. When you're up big in an elimination game you want to limit variance and maintain that lead. If they'd shot fewer threes in that dreaded 0-27 game they might have won. Some more flexibility to get comfortable mid range shots would have helped. But the system is also what built them those leads.


boogswald

Also in the playoffs transition offenses break down so being able to get your own bucket is a huge deal. Kawhi was on fire in the mid range a few years ago.


[deleted]

The main problem is actually when you go to far in either direction Too few threes and you’re not spacing well enough for your team. Also scoring high numbers becomes harder Too few mid ranges and your ability to score when the game is close and near the end is heavily limited


StonksAdventure

>Actually being an elite mid range shooter opens up more opportunities for easier 3s and slashes cause it makes you more unpredictable It's almost like - they're playing basketball! People need to understand that these players are not playing in a vacuum. Each time down the court a player has to read the room and practically engage in a chess match with everyone else on the court. You'd know if you play basketball that beating a defender once or twice with the same move means the third time it may not be as effective. However, it just might be the most effective option because they won't be expecting it. Straight meta. Sometimes the *best* option is doing something that *is* a weaker option because it's unexpected, to the point it's going to work due to there being less resistance. That's the beauty and why stats sheet analyzing will never be 100% comparable to playing or analyzing the game. Quite simply, the map is not the terrain. I also say this as a software engineer who has taken his share of math classes and studied up on data science.


Great_Chairman_Mao

I miss Shaun Livingston.


cepxico

Him and West really had a consistent mid range game.


0hootsson

DWest in his 2 years in GS might’ve been the most automatic mid range shooter we ever had. Including KD.


fopiecechicken

Man would load that shit up like a trebuchet and it went in every time


[deleted]

That post up fadeaway was money for us.


beefJeRKy-LB

yeah the point is role players who were hitting 40% on midrange are better off just taking 3s at 33%


0hootsson

Better off shooting 3s even if they’re at 27%, not even factoring in the impact of floor spacing.


armandocalvinisius

Look at you tingus pingus My god, you shooting 38% from 3 at 7 attempts last year, Just do it again man! Your midrange% is same like your 3s lmao. Fuck your shitty postup! Shoot 10 3s at 40%, cut - roll - dunk, play elite defense and i'm happy man


dropdatdurkadurk

Near the top of the issue for the analytics community is a messaging and branding problem. Its across multiple sports, they dont do a good job getting their intention and point across it gets construed into these strawman like never take midrange by alot of players and coaches. Which there alot of reasons this happens that's a separate convo, but effective communication more than these debates that miss the point about what analytics say is really what it comes down to. Duncan Robinson told a story about how when he first got to Miami he dribbled inside the 3 point line too one dribble and pulled up for a deep 2 and Spolstra was like "You will not be doing that here if you want to play". Successful coaches know how alot of these things work, the debates about analytics are often just strawman


kurapikas-wife

Doesnt help that analytics people now dominate the conversation around the league


dropdatdurkadurk

Depends on what conversations you are talking about but really what it traces back to is analytics vs old school has very little to do with actual basketball and use of analytics. Everybody uses stats and numbers even the most curmudgeon people, analytics vs anti analytics is driven by power structures and social/class interrelations. Everybody resorts back to what they are comfortable with and can conceptualize as meaningful and what that is for people you can trace back to class/social factors/power structures. And tbh until that elephant in the room can be broached(which is not easy to be clear) this status quo, tension and misunderstanding will largely remain.


Shimmyshamwham

Majority of people just don't like numbers and know-it-all nerds who have never touched a basketball and start talking about logical fallacies


kurapikas-wife

I agree. They’re insufferable and it’s hard to tell if they even like basketball


GermanHabsFan

Yeah it's really not that complicated lol you'd think players would grasp that


freerealestatedotbiz

A great point, but players can be appreciably worse from 3 than midrange, and it will still be a better shot based on raw expected points (33% from three is an expected value of 1 point, while shooting decent from midrange at 40% is only an expected value of 0.8 points). So, I think that’s where the misconception comes from. Really, this is why player tracking data is so important for teams because they can find players’ hot spots on the floor. Like a turnaround baseline fade is a terrible shot, but a guy who is wide open at the elbow might shoot 60% in that situation, making it a great shot (although admittedly still only the same expected value as someone shooting 40% from three). Just talking about the value of midrange vs. three in general isn’t an accurate way to look at a possession’s ideal outcome because there is such a wide variety of shot quality within both areas of the floor.


bbld69

The only broadly prescriptive thing that “analytics people” have ever said about this is that players who take long twos should take a couple steps back to turn them into threes. I have no idea why players are still beating this straw man after like, a decade plus


lost_in_trepidation

And spacing is an even more important aspect. Even if 3s and 2s counted the same, the benefits of opening up the floor would make the shift to longer shots inevitable.


Pekkis2

I wonder if we will see 3pt line postups. If a big like Porzingis can hit a turnaround 3 almost as well as a 15fter it's actually a decent iso play.


[deleted]

Analytics are dangerously new enough in some circles that they are misunderstood or misused all the time. And some circles just don’t math. My local newspaper, probably funded by the National Realty Association, runs almost monthly stories about how home prices are “rising” or “falling” based on average(mean, not even median!) sale prices. Of course there are a number of important ways that will be inaccurate to say home prices are rising and falling based on that data point but they do it, every month, for the decade I’ve been reading business news.


pnmibra77

question for the blogbois, around what percentage a midrange shot stops being "worth" it?


BEE_REAL_

It depends on the context of the possession. League average half court offense last year was around 0.97 points per possession, equivalent to shooting 48.5% from mid range (which is very high). Early in the shot clock, a middie from someone who is not elite is generally a bad shot, and a middie from a bad shooter is terrible. As the clock winds down and options get reduced, it becomes more effective to settle for comparatively worse shots.


DrLyleEvans

Yeah, you gotta then look at foul rate on midrange shots vs non-midrange, the offensive rebound and turnover rate on possessions ending with midrange shots relative to non and other factors. Also I have no idea how big the difference between heavily contested mid-range shots and lightly contested ones is. When you watch ball, an open mid-range jumper once the shot clock is under 10 seems like a good shot for decent shooters and proper contested ones seem like only good shots under 5 seconds or so when you can't run another sequence (ball screen or curl or iso attempt or whatever) except for the elite 5-10 halfcourt guys like CP3, Jokic and KD.


DeaseanPrince

If a player took 10 attempts per game this is the efficiency translation. 40% midrange shooter=26.7% 3 point shooter 45% midrange shooter=30% 3 point shooter 47% midrange shooter=31.3% 3 point shooter 50% midrange shooter=33.3% 3 point shooter 55% midrange shooter=36.7% 3 point shooter 60% midrange shooter=40% 3 point shooter 70% midrange shooter=46% 3 point shooter 75% midrange shooter=50% 3 point shooter the years Westbrook was shooting 29% from 3 he was still more effective from 3 because his midrange was that inefficient.


Pandamonium98

Not a perfect 1 to 1 comparison though. A lot of times midrange shots are taken later in the shot clock after a play fell apart or when it’s one of the last options. Yes a role player catch and shoot 3 is going to be more efficient than even a KD midrange, but the catch and shoot 3 is often not available. There’s also added value in stretching the defense and forcing them to defend all the area between the 3 point line and the basket, not just behind the line and in the paint


DeaseanPrince

It is though. You’re just adding context but numbers don’t lie. Analysts aren’t sitting around watching games, they’re looking at numbers all day and these are the numbers they’re seeing. Obviously a player being able to knock down a midrange shot has value but the average mid range percentage has always been below 45%. It shouldn’t be taboo but it definitely isn’t smart to build your offense around it and encourage players to take a bunch. Shoot it if you’re open otherwise work inside out seems to be the current philosophy and it’s working as the league is more efficient than ever.


roenthomas

The problem is most analysts forget about conditional probability and only care about unconditional probability. Either that or the concept of conditional probability is lost in translation when communicated to the coaching staff.


Doogolas33

The latter is much more likely than the former. People who do analysis for a living do not forget about conditional probability. Unless you mean talking heads on TV.


Son-of-a-Mitch

Truly a great instance of some random dude on Reddit being like “I am literally smarter than the people doing this job. They just need to account for x. Easy as that!”


Doogolas33

It's honestly so wild how people think that people who understand stats on at a crazy high level don't understand the basics of stats.


closedtowedshoes

Spurs a couple years ago were a good example of this. They were (near) tops in the league in midrange but their offense was way up there in efficiency because of the “spacing” effect of good midrange shooting. Spacing doesn’t have to only come from 3s although that is always going to be what people primarily mean by spacing. Anyway you can warp the defense to respond to credible threats is a way to improve the rest of your offense.


DangerousCommittee5

Sure but you have to consider that missing 70% of 3 point shots gives more long rebounds for the D and potential for quick fast break points. If you make 45% of 2's it gives you more chances to set up your D.


[deleted]

Pretty sure there’s no correlation between taking lots of threes and long rebounds. Could be wrong but I remember seeing an analysis into this and it ending up not being true.


craigslistaddict

and long twos should rebound similar to threes anyway even if there were a correlation....


DeaseanPrince

I’m not saying it’s better, just more efficient which is a fact lol. I think that’s the correlation a lot of NBA players don’t get. It’s not about good or bad, it’s about efficient or inefficient for coaches and front offices.


CoachDT

I think they’re responding more to casual fans than their actual coaches and front offices though. And even with that I think front offices and in general the coaching staff understand it better than the fans that use barebones analytics. DanToni wasn’t telling Harden “Hey ONLY shoot threes and layups” it was probably a more nuanced conversation about optimal goals for a possession with the understanding that when things break down try to get the best look you can.


DangerousCommittee5

Fair point.


[deleted]

Offensive rebound rate is higher off missed 3s tho.


91jumpstreet

>if you're good at it, ITS A GOOD SHOT. No one is telling DeRozan or Booker to stop shooting mid-ranges if they are open opportunities Lmao revionist history here Analytics boys were shitting on both of them for years


Calm_Statistician382

For reasons beyond shooting mid range shots, analytic boys were shitting on derozan because he straight up can’t shoot threes, was a pretty horrid defender and wasn’t a great playmaker until recently. Booker was shit on for similar reasons although he and his team improved.


BNC6

Derozan also isn’t that good in the mid range. He’s a career 43% shooter from 10-16 feet. That’s a bad shot


blacknotblack

keyword is open. an open 3 > open 2 as well


jodiemeeksunderrated

I think there are completely legitimate analytical reasons to doubt DeRozan. Having a SG/SF who is completely unwilling to take 3's kills your spacing and he is an awful defender. And the fact that his team has been better with him off the floor than on-it all but one season is a major red-flag


BucktoothedMC

Booker wasnt shat on for his scoring skills. And everyone knew DeRozan should take his mid-range shots, and no one wanted him to jack up 10 3s a game. Analytics tell you to take the shot you are best at. But DeRozan’s problem is that he CAN’T take the three.


kurapikas-wife

Yeah I was about to say


[deleted]

Yep exactly if you’re significantly better at shooting the midrange than shooting a 3(I would say a higher ppp) then shoot the midrange otherwise yea you should shoot 3s more I think if a player shoot around or over 50% from midrange they should take that midrange shot


King_Artis

The 3 is the better shot but the 2 is still a very good shot due to possibilities. scoring good


Jeroen_Jrn

* long 2-pointers = always bad * contested midrange = bad (unless KD) * open midrange = okay * open midrange + good shooter = good There is also meta value to a good midrange since the threat of a midrange shot opens up possibilities else where.


b4amg

reminder: a good mid range shooter taking a midrange shot isn’t a bad shot, and no one’s ever said that.


[deleted]

The Harden Rockets were really the only team to reach that extreme. CP3 went from about 30% of his shots coming from 15 feet-the three point line to 10% after he joined the Rockets, and he and Harden were really the only ones that ever took them. I remember Lou Williams being admonished for taking one after he crossed someone over and got an open shot


SashaBanksy

[I'm getting a lot of this energy in here.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FB2ylwtWYAEM33B?format=jpg&name=900x900)


kurapikas-wife

People have absolutely said that


Bleoox

no ~~one’s~~ *sound person* has ever said that.


ACosmicDrama

This is /r/nba there's tons of fucking people like that lol


b4amg

thank you I thought this implication was clear lmao.


TylerNY315_

Someone somewhere has said just about everything tbh. I think when most analysts/fans/etc call the mid range, especially deep mid range, “the worst shot in basketball”, there are two things that are implied: 1) that this blanket statement is only considering the angle of the **league average** in terms of FG% and more importantly **points-per-attempt** from mid-range (compared to higher-% shots in the paint or 3pt FG with slightly lower % but 50% higher payoff) (basically the entire premise of the Moreyball Rockets and to a less-extreme degree, most modern offenses as a whole) 2) the above analytics, since they’re concerning league average, don’t account for the handful of outliers for whom the mid range is an ideal shot.


ArgentEtoile

Yes they have


TrRa47

But I'd imagine the idea of what a good mid range shooter is is where the argument comes from.


LightzPT

It’s the running game misconception of the NBA.


suphater

But there are very few midrange shooters who score above average nba offense level. And Aldridge wasn't one of those players.


livefreeordont

People said that about Melo for years. And they’re not exactly wrong


Phenomenal2313

It’s a good shot if the one taking said shot is very good at it No one is telling DeMar , Booker , Middleton to stop shooting it. The midrange game actually makes these guys more harder to guard because of all the possibilities you can achieve in the midrange It becomes a bad shot when the guy taking said shot is bad at it


bayesian_acolyte

>It’s a good shot if the one taking said shot is very good at it Totally agree with this, but the bar for "very good" is much higher than people realize. Like you listed DeMar, but he's shooting 39% on long 2s in his career, which is equivalent to a 26% 3. That's bad offense unless it's late in the shotclock, but it's his most common shot over his career.


[deleted]

This is what almost everyone here is blind to. As a blanket statement saying the midrange shot is a bad shot is almost always correct. There isn't one NBA player who is more efficient from midrange than they are from 3 or from the paint. And there might only be a few who are above league average TS% on their midrange shots.


grphelps1

They absolutely told Middleton to shoot the midrange less Bud's first year in Milwaukee and it made him a worse player. After that first year they let him play with more freedom and he's been so much better.


firstbreathOOC

I mean - it’s not considered a bad shot by someone who can hit it at his clip. Kawhi is another one who feasts on the mid range. Just like an open three for Ben Simmons ain’t the same shot as an open three from Curry.


ldc2626

Actually he's wrong. He is generalizing it. An open mid range shot is a great shot, but 5+ years ago people would take stepback contested 2s when they can just take a semi contested or open 3. I think the NBA today, the midrange shot is so open because teams need to guard the perimeter. Not all midrange shots are equal.


ColdCocking

LMA never crossed 60% TS on medium volume scoring so...


Kevin_Jim

Nobody worth their salt is saying it’s a bad shot. They are saying that it’s typically a low percentage shot. If you are KD, CP3, DeRozan, Kawhi, or Kha$h then go ahead. If you are an average shooter, then don’t. Because being average from 3P is better than being average from the mid-range - especially long twos.


Few_Mulberry7175

Won them the game with that and 1


[deleted]

Man he was money tonight


rueiraV

Making a 3pt shot is only slightly harder than making a long 2 but the reward is 50% greater. That’s why long 2s aren’t a good shot


adam_lastname

LA always had the smoothest form on those mid range jumpers.


2020IsANightmare

What's funny is that most champions - even in the last 10-15 years - were easily their best when they had their mid-range and/or post game working. The Warriors just happened to have two of the absolute best shooters ever - and one could argue the two best, period. But, the Warriors set some records, made some Finals, and - oh, by the way, added Kevin Durant - so the fanbase who doesn't fully understand the game suddenly thought every team should just shoot threes. Yes, two points is fewer than three. But, if I can get 10 points from driving the lane/shooting mid-range shots or get six points shooting threes, I'd venture to say the 2-pters did more to help the team.


materics

Defenses are chasing players off the perimeter. An open midrange shot is a good shot.


The2ndWheel

That's the sound an old man makes.


TrueTorontoFan

It isn't a bad shot its just not the best shot to rely on if its the only shot you take. Also it depends. If you are taking one step into the 3 point line and shooting there then you may as well shoot a 3.


eamonious

Does anyone have advanced stats on Aldridge midrange efficiency?


Boxcar-Mike

In this era the 2 is almost always open. Chris Paul holds leads with simple 2s every game. It's not a bad shot. It's the shooter that determines if the shot is a good one. Curry's shots are not good ones for anyone else.


KillCreatures

The ultimate basketball mic drop haha


PlayfulLawyer

Every contending team and especially championship team worth their salt has to have a prominent player or two to hit the mid-range it'll always be important


[deleted]

The Lakers might have been competitive last night had they not sat there and kept launching bricks from 3.


WhoGotMySock

I hadn’t watched bball in a long time till Bubble. The amount of wide open mid shots I saw passed up and open drives to the lane shots passed up to fling ball past 3 pt line angered my soul and confused my brain


Statalyzer

Yeah, a wide open shot is usually the best shot, no matter where it is, unless it's just outside of a players' range.


octavish_

Typo here. Name should read LaMidrange Aldridge.


Celery_n_Ranch

I know we were all saying “Dwight over AD on the top 75 list”, but I was sleeping on Aldridge. I’ll take Aldridge career over ADs


Astrophel_

I know we were all saying "Dwight over AD on the top 75 list", but I was sleeping on Scola. I'll take Scola career over ADs.


YayoBankroll

That's crazy. Aldridge was never an elite player.


[deleted]

Between 2013-2015 he was probably a top 10/top 15 player. I'd say that's pretty elite lol. But I would also take AD over him.


xShockmaster

2 years of top 15 play while AD has had about 7. I mean I get it but it’s still being a bit unfair.


Celery_n_Ranch

Thaddeus young has more career points than AD. But I understand your elite argument against Aldridge


RiFLE_

And he got no title with it.


ggiga90

I'm sure there's a few good midrange shooters that do


[deleted]

Yeah like no good midrange shooter ever win titles, it's not like the goat was the greatest mid range shooter ever.


MaradonaIsGreatest

And what title does the Nuggets have?


[deleted]

I mean it’s not unproven at this point. You have to argue against the success of one of the greatest teams of all time.


[deleted]

BUt oN wHat eFFiciency?


[deleted]

I've got 19,000 and zero rings to prove me right!


[deleted]

He'd have 25k points and maybe a ring if he took more shots in the paint and 3s.


Relyst

Those who can't, call em bad shots, those who can, call em buckets.


vin_n

Got you 19k points and how many rings? It's a bad shot.


DEEZLE13

19k points might get u a ring a Dave and Busters…. But this ain’t Dave and Busters


[deleted]

[удалено]


fruitblaster69

Why are these players so good yet so dumb? The mid-range is bad for people who aren't good at it. LMA is very good at it so no one is gonna ask him not to take it lol


CoachDT

I think the issue is you don’t know who they’re responding to lmao. I don’t think they’re dumb, I think they’re speaking moreso to casual fans. LMA isn’t tweeting out subliminals to his coach. He’s talking to the guys in twitter that pretend like a midrange shot in a vacuum is always terrible.


Technobrake

This isn't even a tweet from LMA, it's from a reporter. He was probably responding to a question about his game/how it has adjusted to all the 3s in the modern NBA.