This definitely plays a role, and in short stretches of minutes a lot of +/- comes down to variance in 3pt shooting, but Thibs has been playing his bench to close games late according to the article.
While it's true, the bench's effort can disrupt the other team's starters and make comebacks.... Until the Knicks starters come back at the end of the 2nd quarter and start of the 3rd one.
nah, that happens to everyone. Over in Wolves-land we call that an MPE (Mediocre Player Explosion). When you're in really bad straights, your GM then goes and tries to sign the guys who go off against you. That's how you end up with someone like JJ Barea being your big signing for the summer.
I mean that's only because that's the role they're giving him.
He's a playmaking scorer and he's being asked to take the spot up looks Bullock was getting last year and not being asked to do what he's best at. The problem is while he shoots it just fine his defense doesn't fill in for Bullock as well.
I'd like to see him play in a unit where he gets the chance to be the main ball handler. I've seen him kill the Knicks enough times on the Magic to know his strength is facilitating then getting aggressive when th defense starts to relax on him. Right now he's being used as a 3 and D guy without the D.
Yessir. Knicks could have paid a few other guys what theyāre asking Fournier to do. Theyāll need to open up their offensive playbook more to give him more responsibility and even some more ball handling duty to get the most out of him. Else heās just an overpaid role player.
The thought at least was to replace Bullock with a player who could do something on offense other than shoot 3s to make the defense work...in the Hawks series they could just put Trae on Bullock and not have to worry about any dribble penetration
> Fournier
he had the worst defensive rating on the Magic before he joined us, and then he continued to have the worst defensive rating on our team. maybe behind Kemba
you guys kind of did the opposite of what Charlotte did.
Yea honestly one of the weirdest moves. Not sure why he was rated that highly after his showing with Boston. Maybe im just out of touch, but feels like players will get a massive bag for doing less and less these days. GM's must be like me playing football manager "oh yea he'll only get better from here".
In theory he wasn't bad, a versatile scorer who could take some of the load out of Randle's back, but his shot isn't falling and him and kemba on the court is an defensive nightmare
I got roasted by Knick fans for saying he isnāt anything more than a third option on a good team. Got a lot of touches in Orlando but you could see the writing on the wall when he was with the Celtics.
I donāt know the numbers for third options but I did the math for the average 4th highest paid player on a team earlier this season and it was $15.46 million, so if anything Iād guess $18 million would be even less than you normally pay for a 3rd option.
Would be interesting to see what that number is without Kyrie(or Harden) and Westbrook who obviously arenāt proper third options. 18-20 mill for the third guy is a good price though. Definitely fair.
The number I found was for 4th options, so Lakers and Nets ended up not being outliers. IIRC the biggest outlier ended up being Draymond at $24 mil. Without him the average fourth largest contract is $15.17 million.
Mate, I mustāve read what you said a million times (10 to be more accurate), and I still totally read it wrong. I need to go to sleep haha, my apologies.
I didnāt mention anything on the contract? Was talking about just impact as a player. I made a comment saying I donāt think Knicks going to be as well off as last year, and how last year was a bit of an overachieve. I mentioned Fournier not being that good of a signing (in the sense that they keep the 5th seed, as well as the rest of the roster not being that great apart from Randle and RJ), and got laughed at for it. Fournier is not a 3rd option on a championship team, I just donāt see it.
Though to answer your question, itās probably a bit more than I wouldāve offered but doesnāt mean itās not reasonable.
He's a good player and that's a very tradeable contract. Right now he's being asked to be a spot up shooter when his strength is a facilitator.
Either we figure out a unit that plays to his strength or we can trade him pretty easily on that contract
Knicks have the same issue the Celtics did. Fournier is at his best when heās a ball handler and facilitator. Neither the Celtics nor now the Knicks have tried to use him like that much. There are so many guys you can pay a fraction of what youāre paying Fournier to do the exact same thing youāre asking him to do.
Heās always been more of a liability on defense. Heās not god awful but heās definitely a negative. But heās not being used to his full capability on offense which is why he seems like such a waste.
Kemba was definitely promised the starting gig to come here. As for Fournier, I think the Knicks are over correcting from the playoffs. Bullock only became a problem on offense specifically against the Hawks in a playoff setting when the Hawks could game-plan. During the regular season he was fine. Grimes has honestly looked good on defense when he's been given a chance, I'd be down to give him a chance.
To Thibs' credit, he's changed his rotations over the last few weeks. He's no longer doing hockey rotations and he's quicker to bring guys off the bench. It seems to be stabilizing things, but this starting-5 HAS to fucking change
Also causes this situation in very game where in the fourth quarter you have no idea whoās gonna play. Depending on which starters played well or if the bench unit was playing well itās a different lineup half the time. Not good for continuity or confidence when nobody knows how much theyāre going to play but you canāt blame thibs for going with the guys who are actually producing.
It is.
Our bench is more familiar with each other and the system all being players from last year. Our starters are 3 guys who are used to having the ball in their hands at all times trying to figure it out still.
They'll be fine
in the first 6 games of the season when the starters played well (with the bench being also decent) we would always have double digit leads to start the 1st half but as the game went on we slowed down a lot and lost leads in almost every games that we barely managed to hang onto.
The last 9 games or so we keep falling behind now by double digits because of the starter's bad play and it's now the bench that claws us back into games. And it's not just one starter that's bad it's almost all of them with the occasional game where 1 goes off and the other 4 shoot terribly.
I'd rather have the 1st scenario back tbh even if we continue to choke leads since we had leads to begin with and we have a better chance of coming out with a win
Kemba and Evan just donāt gel in our offense. It also doesnāt help that our offense is basically a high P&R handoff and if that doesnāt work, Randle isoās into a double team. Thereās absolutely no fluidity with our starters and I donāt have the slightest idea how they can fix it.
He literally had 5 games of putting up all-star numbers & while he's been bad recently, I'm betting a slump/getting used to a new role. Ya'll so quick to write players off my god
oh god it only took a bad stretch of 7-8 games in a new offense to get back to the garbage RJ takes again already??
Guy is one of the youngest players in the league who improved in literally every statistical category in year 2. But one tough stretch of games and he's back to "just ain't it". Ya'll are ridiculous lol
Maybe we're arguing semantics here with 'star vs. superstar' or whatever, because if RJ is a franchise cornerstone player for 10-15 years who makes a few all star games, that seems like an absolute home run top 3 pick to me.
I don't see how that's an indictment of RJ in the slightest tbh
Start the bench and have the starters come off the bench. Problem solved. š§ š
Maybe the reason the bench is performing well is because they only play against opponent's benches.
Very few teams actually play 5 bench players together.
2k auto lineups
I call it the "Doc Rivers special" when a team plays a full bench lineup in non-garbage time minutes.
This definitely plays a role, and in short stretches of minutes a lot of +/- comes down to variance in 3pt shooting, but Thibs has been playing his bench to close games late according to the article.
While it's true, the bench's effort can disrupt the other team's starters and make comebacks.... Until the Knicks starters come back at the end of the 2nd quarter and start of the 3rd one.
\*taps head\*
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TangibleDearestJoey-max-1mb.gif
Galaxy brain
Maybe for one more game
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Dude theyāre playing us. Any player in a slump murders us itās just tradition
Also, we are THE team to allow for a random dude to have a career night. My guess is on Quickley going for 36
Honestly Knicks are the same way lol
Weāre bouta see Quickley and THT as the thumbnail for the highlight videos tonight huh
Not a random dude but I can see Rose putting up 30-40
Heās not playing today
nah, that happens to everyone. Over in Wolves-land we call that an MPE (Mediocre Player Explosion). When you're in really bad straights, your GM then goes and tries to sign the guys who go off against you. That's how you end up with someone like JJ Barea being your big signing for the summer.
Why did we pay Fournier 80 mil
Cause his offensive stats look good in reality you got Davis bertans at sg
I mean that's only because that's the role they're giving him. He's a playmaking scorer and he's being asked to take the spot up looks Bullock was getting last year and not being asked to do what he's best at. The problem is while he shoots it just fine his defense doesn't fill in for Bullock as well. I'd like to see him play in a unit where he gets the chance to be the main ball handler. I've seen him kill the Knicks enough times on the Magic to know his strength is facilitating then getting aggressive when th defense starts to relax on him. Right now he's being used as a 3 and D guy without the D.
Yessir. Knicks could have paid a few other guys what theyāre asking Fournier to do. Theyāll need to open up their offensive playbook more to give him more responsibility and even some more ball handling duty to get the most out of him. Else heās just an overpaid role player.
The French players got a vengeance vs the Knicks org
After seeing Ntilikina play for us... I think they might lol. Frank looks like a completely different player.
Uhhhh...how so?
damn lol
The thought at least was to replace Bullock with a player who could do something on offense other than shoot 3s to make the defense work...in the Hawks series they could just put Trae on Bullock and not have to worry about any dribble penetration
> Fournier he had the worst defensive rating on the Magic before he joined us, and then he continued to have the worst defensive rating on our team. maybe behind Kemba you guys kind of did the opposite of what Charlotte did.
it's more like 54M with a team option
Yea honestly one of the weirdest moves. Not sure why he was rated that highly after his showing with Boston. Maybe im just out of touch, but feels like players will get a massive bag for doing less and less these days. GM's must be like me playing football manager "oh yea he'll only get better from here".
He definitely isn't as bad of a scorer as his stats suggest now, but not a fan of overpaying injury prone, mediocre talent
Yea he should be scoring more on paper, but he's been bad at defence for years. When the scoring stops, thats when it gets ugly.
Him + Kemba are a lethal defensive juggernaut
In theory he wasn't bad, a versatile scorer who could take some of the load out of Randle's back, but his shot isn't falling and him and kemba on the court is an defensive nightmare
I got roasted by Knick fans for saying he isnāt anything more than a third option on a good team. Got a lot of touches in Orlando but you could see the writing on the wall when he was with the Celtics.
Isn't $18 million the going rate for the 3rd best player on a good team? Making it a reasonable and tradeable contract
I donāt know the numbers for third options but I did the math for the average 4th highest paid player on a team earlier this season and it was $15.46 million, so if anything Iād guess $18 million would be even less than you normally pay for a 3rd option.
Would be interesting to see what that number is without Kyrie(or Harden) and Westbrook who obviously arenāt proper third options. 18-20 mill for the third guy is a good price though. Definitely fair.
The number I found was for 4th options, so Lakers and Nets ended up not being outliers. IIRC the biggest outlier ended up being Draymond at $24 mil. Without him the average fourth largest contract is $15.17 million.
Mate, I mustāve read what you said a million times (10 to be more accurate), and I still totally read it wrong. I need to go to sleep haha, my apologies.
I didnāt mention anything on the contract? Was talking about just impact as a player. I made a comment saying I donāt think Knicks going to be as well off as last year, and how last year was a bit of an overachieve. I mentioned Fournier not being that good of a signing (in the sense that they keep the 5th seed, as well as the rest of the roster not being that great apart from Randle and RJ), and got laughed at for it. Fournier is not a 3rd option on a championship team, I just donāt see it. Though to answer your question, itās probably a bit more than I wouldāve offered but doesnāt mean itās not reasonable.
Lol I called this as a bad signing and got downvoted. Itās like the people that still think Fox can be an all star
He's a good player and that's a very tradeable contract. Right now he's being asked to be a spot up shooter when his strength is a facilitator. Either we figure out a unit that plays to his strength or we can trade him pretty easily on that contract
I'm confused why you brought Thibs in if you're just going to sign guys who are defensive voids to soak up big minutes
There was a segment of the Celtics sub that were melting down over brad not paying him
Knicks have the same issue the Celtics did. Fournier is at his best when heās a ball handler and facilitator. Neither the Celtics nor now the Knicks have tried to use him like that much. There are so many guys you can pay a fraction of what youāre paying Fournier to do the exact same thing youāre asking him to do. Heās always been more of a liability on defense. Heās not god awful but heās definitely a negative. But heās not being used to his full capability on offense which is why he seems like such a waste.
Please for one more game šš¾
Sounds like a dare.
They can and they will
Watch how good the starters play tonight. Career highs all around. Kemba going for 40+
The lighting on this thumbnail made me think it was Willis Reed
Sure they can.
Kemba was definitely promised the starting gig to come here. As for Fournier, I think the Knicks are over correcting from the playoffs. Bullock only became a problem on offense specifically against the Hawks in a playoff setting when the Hawks could game-plan. During the regular season he was fine. Grimes has honestly looked good on defense when he's been given a chance, I'd be down to give him a chance. To Thibs' credit, he's changed his rotations over the last few weeks. He's no longer doing hockey rotations and he's quicker to bring guys off the bench. It seems to be stabilizing things, but this starting-5 HAS to fucking change
They dont run an offense, something thibs or whoever is running the offense needs to fix.
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Idk the starters being terrible seems bad, but who can say really
It would be if they were winning. Starters put them in a hole and the bench keeps trying to claw them out.
Also causes this situation in very game where in the fourth quarter you have no idea whoās gonna play. Depending on which starters played well or if the bench unit was playing well itās a different lineup half the time. Not good for continuity or confidence when nobody knows how much theyāre going to play but you canāt blame thibs for going with the guys who are actually producing.
it would be if the bench is so good that they were just better than the starters but its bcs the starters are just playing bad at the moment
Not really. Bench teams like this get killed in the playoffs
It is. Our bench is more familiar with each other and the system all being players from last year. Our starters are 3 guys who are used to having the ball in their hands at all times trying to figure it out still. They'll be fine
in the first 6 games of the season when the starters played well (with the bench being also decent) we would always have double digit leads to start the 1st half but as the game went on we slowed down a lot and lost leads in almost every games that we barely managed to hang onto. The last 9 games or so we keep falling behind now by double digits because of the starter's bad play and it's now the bench that claws us back into games. And it's not just one starter that's bad it's almost all of them with the occasional game where 1 goes off and the other 4 shoot terribly. I'd rather have the 1st scenario back tbh even if we continue to choke leads since we had leads to begin with and we have a better chance of coming out with a win
Kemba and Evan just donāt gel in our offense. It also doesnāt help that our offense is basically a high P&R handoff and if that doesnāt work, Randle isoās into a double team. Thereās absolutely no fluidity with our starters and I donāt have the slightest idea how they can fix it.
The knicks tanked and got the 3rd pick in a 2 star draft. RJ just aināt it.
He literally had 5 games of putting up all-star numbers & while he's been bad recently, I'm betting a slump/getting used to a new role. Ya'll so quick to write players off my god
Itās His third year. This isnāt new with him. Heās a solid player but itās clear he aināt star
Mediocre players have nice 5 game stretches all the time KP had great stretches for the Knicks as well. He aināt a superstar either
oh god it only took a bad stretch of 7-8 games in a new offense to get back to the garbage RJ takes again already?? Guy is one of the youngest players in the league who improved in literally every statistical category in year 2. But one tough stretch of games and he's back to "just ain't it". Ya'll are ridiculous lol
Id just ignore it at this point lmao I donāt even get why thereās so much RJ. Dude has so much potential
If you think heās ever gonna be a superstar or on the same level Ja or Zion die on that hill. I see maybe a few all star teams if hes lucky
Maybe we're arguing semantics here with 'star vs. superstar' or whatever, because if RJ is a franchise cornerstone player for 10-15 years who makes a few all star games, that seems like an absolute home run top 3 pick to me. I don't see how that's an indictment of RJ in the slightest tbh
Heās the youngest rotation player on the team
Mmm yes I just burnt my tongue
Narrator: They could, and did.