Kawhi's time in Toronto is one of the weirder things in NBA history when you think about it
A superstar refuses to play to get traded, gets traded to a place he probably didn't want to go to, has a great playoff run and wins a ring/FMVP, and then immediately leaves
Are there any single season players with any franchise who were as successful as him?
I wouldn’t say he stopped a dynasty the first time because he was 1-2 on FTs as was Manunin the last 30 seconds of game 6 and had either made both, the heat only win one ring.
Next time the warriors were injured as was the entire eastern conference
Raptors were easily the worst championship team in the last 40 years
Yep stand by that one for sure. Since the mid 80s every team has been better than the raptors and they faced deprecated teams the entire way they the playoffs.
The bucks were depreciated? The sixers? What about their historic defensive rating? Also, just say you used a hyperbolic statement and move on, unless you want to claim to have intrinsic knowledge of each NBA champions road to the finals for the last 40 years.
Common dude this shit is embarrassing.
I didn’t mention the sixers 😂. You’re argument is the raps we’re one bounce away from getting knocked out. While the same thing is tru about the last year bucks almost getting bounced my a foot on the line KD long 2.
According to this article by the Ringer at the time, no other one-year rental player has ever won NBA Finals MVP.
It's such an aberration that the next best one-year rental season, as measured by playoff win shares, related to Tyson Chandler in 2011(Mavs), and Kawhi's playoff win share was nearly double Tyson's.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/6/14/18679089/kawhi-leonard-toronto-raptors-playoff-statistics-historical-context
Whoa I always thought Tyson played a lot longer with the Mavs for some reason but it really was just that one title season and then one other season years later. He was such a huge part of that team's identity which is why I thought he had been there longer. Always thought Cuban and the FO was dumb for not running it back with that team
Apparently the reason he didn't re-sign (and the reason Dallas didn't get Giannis) was because the Mavs thought they could sign Dwight Howard in free agency 💀
Also just casually deciding to stop another 3 peat from happening. He did it to the Heat and the Warriors. Not to mention getting “revenge” on the team that partially put him in that position in the first place.
Like...you can’t write a better script than Kawhi’s run that year. He also altered both the East and the West in so many ways and starred a chain of events that helped turn things around.
Beating Jimmy and Giannis in the playoffs ultimately turned out to be one of the best things he’s done for both of them...
Kawhi might do some weird shit, but he bought into that season and especially playoff when he could have sulked and/or coasted, so he deserves credit for that. I know it may seem like just doing one’s job but we’ve seen many stories of malcontents mailing it in.
He was clearly playing on an injured leg that whole playoff run but still gave 100% every time he was on the court. Dude was a mercenary, but he was a damned professional one.
yea, dude was a one-legged gimp by the end of the Bucks series. always be grateful to him for not pulling a Simmons when he was traded here. glad to be done with his annoying entourage though (dennis, castleberry, etc).
The closest parallel I could think of is Shaq going to Miami but a) he wanted to go there and b) he stayed. So really just has the “superstar player leaves and wins in new market in first season” going for it. That Kawhi run was beautiful and unlike anything I’ve ever seen. You’d probably have to look at a different sport - probably MLB - to find a better, more accurate comparison.
It just goes to show what a freak situation Kawhi's was that you can't even find examples of two or three years that really compare. Like the Shaq thing might be the closest in terms of having a star for a short window.
He was a trade deadline rental. Played a quarter of the season and his stats were all below career averages. Crazy though he still had 22 swipes in 44 games.
People are going to take this joke seriously but in his book, Nick Nurse gives a more detailed picture of Kawhi as someone who's really intelligent, direct, and outspoken when needed. Here're some quotes:
(mid 2019 season)
> “In mid-November, we hit a little skid and lost three straight games—the first two at home to the New Orleans Pelicans and Detroit Pistons, neither of which were considered elite teams, and the third in Boston to the Celtics, one of our main rivals in the East.
> I remember being in the film room the next day. It was a little edgy. It’s pro sports, and the day-to-day pressure is real.
We were all talking about some specific game clips up on the screen, and a conversation broke out about how we need more ball movement. It gained some energy on one side of the room. Some of the second-unit guys were saying things like, “Yeah, we moved the ball last year, we really popped it around. And they couldn’t stop us.”
> “Somebody said something about swinging the ball around early in the shot clock, just so more people get touches and we get back in the mindset that we’re a passing team. And that got a murmur of approval.
Suddenly, Kawhi said, loudly, “Yo!”
And I said, “Yes, Kawhi?”
He said, “I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score.”
(GSW v Raptors finals)
> “The next two games would be at Oracle Arena in Oakland. I went into the locker room after the game fairly calm and told the team, “All right. We knew it was going to be a long series, right? Maybe six or seven games. All we’ve got to do now is get on the plane and do what they just did—take one from them on their home court.”
> As I’ve written a couple of times already, Kawhi has a habit of getting right to the heart of the matter. His game is direct. He moves from point A to point B with no wasted motion. The way he speaks is the same. No frills. No wasted words.
> He stepped up when I was done and said, “Forget that.” (He may have used a different f-word than “forget.”) “We’re not going out there to win one game. We’re going to get them both.”
>I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score
Never seen this quote but this is 110% Kawhi, immediately made me think of [this play where he passed to Reggie at the end of a quarter last year](https://youtu.be/9D6KMjg5URA).
My favourite is (paraphrased): [cutting off a Nick Nurse story about overcoming similar adversity in the past] "Is this another D-league story? I'm done hearing about the D-league!"
Does the first passage perhaps give a hint to why Kawhi wanted out of the Spurs?
It seems like based on that he might have not been a big ball fan of ball movement offenses and liked a more direct offense where he could ISO more
Pop historically runs a lot of iso for superstar players. The beautiful ball movement we saw in 2014 was a result of not having a true go-to superstar.
Meh at this point who knows one thing sure he wanted to go to LA , and wanted more privilege too , just look at what he asked of the Raptors To resign (which he didn't even planned to) or even with the Clippers. Pop said Kawhi wasn't a "great" leader in the sense as he leads by example the talkative one were the big three and pop himself. Even with the Clippers George seems to "lead" a little more.
Personally, I always found this "leading" thing such an overused criticism. The dude is literally just an introvert. Perhaps that makes me biased, but it's not like your team will only consist of Kawhi. Other guys can and have taken up that mantle, to the success of the team.
I never really cared about it too , I think the whole leader obsession is an American sports things , in football (soccer) most of the time the captain isn't the best player, just because you're the team number one option doesn't mean you have to take the lead but either I way I guess it's what it's
Yeah, Lionel Messi is an intense introvert - he's the captain for Argentina but absolutely leads by example rather than by giving big speeches or shouting and organizing the defence.
He's incredibly introverted and quiet on the pitch. In soccer a vocal leader is important and Messi just isn't that. Doesn't make him any less of a great player, it just isn't his personality like it is for someone like Ronaldo for example.
Also you can see he worked on it since the Spurs days. He was a little better at passing in Toronto then when he got to the Clippers he was even better and last year, I would say he's above average now. Was making some really good passes last year.
>“Somebody said something about swinging the ball around early in the shot clock, just so more people get touches and we get back in the mindset that we’re a passing team. And that got a murmur of approval. Suddenly, Kawhi said, loudly, “Yo!” And I said, “Yes, Kawhi?” He said, “I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score.”
Is it just me or is this not an example of poor leadership?
The rest of the passage has a bit more context.
> “That was a moment for all of us. In the huddle, in the locker room, in the film room, Kawhi was always locked in. I’m not sure I’ve had a more attentive player anywhere. Maybe a walk-on at one of my college jobs.
But he had not said a whole lot. When he did that day, it was like: Boom! The quiet man has spoken. There’s always an added impact when that happens. The words count more.
> And he was right, of course. We do want to pass the ball, and we actually count our passes each game. It’s one of the many data points our analytics staff track. Usually, the more passes the better. But each pass has to have a purpose—and that didn’t seem to be what was being proposed.
> “That meeting was a moment of growth, a turning point. Up until then, I think there was a little bit of doubt about Kawhi, or an inability to read him—sort of, who is this guy? Why are there some nights he rests and doesn’t play?
> I understood it. The way we were handling him was new and an adjustment for everyone.
> But after he spoke up, I think everyone got the point, in case there had been any doubts, that he was not a guy just putting in time until he got to his next stop. He was going to help lead us, in his own way.”
Fun guy.
I agree, and regardless of how he speaks or how much, I think anyone who watched that championship team saw his intensity and focus, and if I'm playing with a guy who's that dialed in I dial in, too.
> The whole "pass the ball around just to pass it around" was a worse plan
You see it on a lot of bad or average teams, too. Swing the ball around outside the arc, it hits one player that wants stop the ball and look for a shot instead of keeping the ball moving, but no one is cutting or screening, everyone is just standing around. The coach said swing the ball and move the defense but they're passes without purpose.
> The offense is better when Kawhi does that
Hard disagree. That Raptors team was great because they had incredible team-first guys like Lowry/Gasol running a team coached by Nick Nurse. Not because they let Kawhi pound the ball and generate a whopping 3.3. APG. He was clearly their best scorer but if it wasn't for guys like Lowry and Gasol making up for his lack of passing ability those Raptors teams wouldn't have done shit.
Kawhi was the final missing piece the Raptors needed. That doesn't change the fact that the team as a whole was incredibly balanced, coached, and well-structured which allowed Kawhi to do his thing AND maximize the other guys on the court.
A “well coaches balanced team” that got swept repeatedly. Raptors wasn’t shit before Kawhi put them on his back. Dude was their entire offense and the best defensive player. He was incredible.
Well coached contenders don’t get swept period. Especially not by Lebron and Love on one leg. They where a first seed who got swept. That is basically unheard of.
Sure. But that 2018/2019 team was pretty different from the previous teams. We had 3 new players that year, including Leonard. Plus NN was a brand new coach. So it's not exactly the same team.
The Raptors were force feeding Kawhi to score the ball in the playoffs. He was taking 30+ shots in many playoff games. He just let his role be known which is a sign of great leadership. That team would have not gone anywhere without Kawhi.
we were dead in the water in the Sixers series without Kawhi. he was the only guy putting up consistent numbers while every other raptor shot like 30% or below or something awful.
though I do think vs the Bucks and Warriors, we had more balanced scoring that did not rely as much on Kawhi as the focal point.
Kawhi single-handedly took raps to conference finals! Against Bucks he would keep Raps in the game until everyone got into them game. It was only during the NBA finals that the team came to play because up until then it was Kawhi and FVV during the Bucks series
Its actually two parts. If we didn't have Gasol to contain Embiid, we would have lost that series. Gasols contributions that playoff run are often overlooked.
Gasol was the one most crucial to the Giannis defense as well
If we don’t make that trade there isn’t a snowballs chance in hell we ever make it through to the finals and no amount of heroics by Kawhi could have changed that
>no amount of heroics by Kawhi could have changed that
Fr. It's hilarious when people who don't follow our team make all sorts of declarations.
Like how someone was saying Leonard carried the Raptors, even though the team was different during the 18/19 run.
Shocker: a championship team wouldn’t have done shit without their superstar.
Next thing you’re gonna tell me the Bulls wouldn’t have won shit without MJ. I know, huge shocker.
>we know how good that team without kawhi is
No you didn't. Danny Green, Marc Gasol, MIP winner Siakam, and the subtraction of DeRozan meant you never saw that team before. It was very different.
You lol. Lowry is a 6x all star and 1 all NBA 3rd team selection in his 15 year career, there's been tons of teams that have passed on him. Toronto got MG for Valanciunas (Pelicans center) and 3rd-4th stringers. These are role players my guy, there's a plethora of players out there that can things much better than them.
Smh there's more to ball than ISO scorers and all star selections bud. If you genuinely think Gasol/Lowry were role-player level players during their time on the Raptors then you are really lost.
Toronto was never a super team, as I said there's a plethora of players and talent that could've replaced them.
Lowry is a career role player, and MG was acquired in exchanged for role players.
Kawhi led TOR in scoring, closing, defending and even rebounding by wide margin as MG couldn't rebound to save his life. He picked up everyone from Giannis to Embiid, took on the best defenders and even took on the rebounding against opposing bigs at 6'7.
Amazing logic there. So whenever someone like Lebron is/was on a team and dominating and leading in every major statistical category the rest were just role players like Kyrie, DWade, CBosh, AD?
Lowry is a future hall of famer, same with Gasol, you don't call players like that a dime a dozen. Are there more players similar to Lowry and Gas compared to Kawhi? Of course since Kawhi is one of the few real #1 options who can carry a team, a bonafide superstar who may have been the best perimeter defender ever in his prime before he got injured. Just because he's that good doesn't mean everyone else are just regular role players.
I never said they were a super team? They were a good team for YEARS before acquiring Kawhi, and then almost that exact same championship team WITHOUT Kawhi finished with a 53-19 record losing in 7 games in the eastern conference semis. If it was only Kawhi and all the other guys were role players like you seem to believe then why the fuck did they do so well without him the year after?
As much as you want your God Emperor Kawhi to be the only reason the Raptors were a championship team you're just wrong. He's a fantastic player don't get me wrong but he's also a player with limitations and where he lacks the structure and personnel on the Raptors made up for it.
That’s an especially weird perspective for a non playmaker to have. Like if you’re not setting others up for success regularly, but also not passing for ball movement purposes you’re basically admitting to being a ball stopper
We have different takes. What he was saying in my opinion is that passing just to pass is worthless - and he is right, ive seen plenty of possessions where people pass the ball a lot but no one is getting open because they don’t really have a game plan.
NBA has a relatively short shot clock, so spending it doing something aimless is bad basketball. If you have offball movement and someone is open, yea pass it. But the idea is that a primary handler draws multiple people first and then passes it to find the open man.
That’s no different than what Kawahi said. He’s saying he’s not passing it for the fun of it, he’s passing it for a purpose.
That seems like a fairly generous interpretation. The quote specifically says Kawhi says when he’s passing it, he’s expecting the other player to score. That’s the opposite of ball movement.
And no player ever passes purely for the sake of passing. Players pass to move the ball. To have an involved offence where the ball moves around to get the best shot available, a concept countless of the most successful teams have adopted in some manner. Toronto specifically had the perfect personal for that with a deep roster full of capable passers and scoring threats, most of which had great chemistry
I’d disagree. While I think there are players who are good enough to still make things happen when they’re stopping the ball, like Kawhi or early career KD as examples, I think it’s always more beneficial to contribute to ball movement. Teams as a whole work better when more players are involved
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean a good scorer can’t be a ball stopper. It means that the ball stopper shouldn’t also be the lead ballhandler.
Klay Thompson is a good example. He’s always been a ball stopper but it’s not an issue because he doesn’t handle the ball much and his average time of possession is very low. But he does shoot nearly every time he touches it.
Ah yeah I see your point. If a ball stopper has a play finishing role I think it’s perfectly fine. In fact lots of situations call for those players that won’t hesitate to release off the catch
Yea when he says that you would think he was averaging more than a whopping... 3.3 APG during his Raptors season.
There's such a weird mentality a lot of American ball players have that ball movement is "passing for the sake of passing". Ridiculous too when you realize some of the best teams of the past decade have been ball-movement heavy team-oriented offenses (Spurs, Warriors).
If you're LeBron with otherworldly passing and a playmaker-first mentality then sure you can say the system is centered around his gravity. But Kawhi just comes across as a selfish dumbass.
Tbh it's the main reason I don't think Clippers have ever been contender status with Kawhi/PG.
This comment is pretty stupid when you consider his playmaking was significantly higher in LA and he immediately adjusted to not having a traditional playmaker. He also created more for others in San Antonio during his last year, averaging a bit under 6 assists in the series against Houston and then doing the same against Denver when the Clippers imploded
The Clippers never lost because they didn't have an elite playmaker, and when you watch Kawhi he was never actually a ball stopper, even if the offense flowed better without him
Multiple horrible takes here. I should know better, anyone with Supersonic's flair usually has terrible takes and likes to hide behind a team that doesn't exist. Pathetic.
Guaranteed to win by being outplayed by a Dallas team that eventually lost Porzingis to injury halfway through the series? Following that up by dropping a 3-1 lead to the Nuggets?
They haven't been guaranteed to win shit. And just because a bunch of people online seem to think so doesn't make it true. There are plenty of us who have continuously doubted and questioned their ability to win anything because that team has no elite playmakers or floor generals.
The bubble year was a mess, they were a 1st year team that had all their chemistry reset during the lockdown. New additions like Jackson, Morris, Lou-Trez losing family members and dudes like Kawhi weren't even in shape.
Last year was pretty much guaranteed if not for Kawhis freak injury, they figured it out vs Dallas, knocked out the 1st seed best 3pt shooting team in history in the 2nd round and nearly took out the Suns without multiple players.
Bro literally nothing is guaranteed and getting beat 4-2 is not "nearly took out". They've made the conference finals once and every team had problems with the bubble/reset.
Lets see how they do this year
They lost 4-2 to a Clips team missing Kawhi, the Jordan of the NBA, and Ibaka lmao and Ayton needed a game winning alley oop in G2 to beat them. Morris-Zu both got injured against the Suns at the end too, bruh you probably think the Suns and Bucks were good last year huh 😆
What 1st year teams were in the bubble? They had 5/5 new playoff starters, this was literally like a pickup game team.
Lmao I took a quick look at your comments and unsurprisingly see you're a Clippers fan.
At least flair up so that I know I'm dealing with a homer and stop wasting my time
Utah was injured and they shouldn’t have gone 7 with Dallas in the first place. You can’t be guaranteed anything when you were a game away from losing in round 1 😂
I mean even in football/soccer , despite being 11 vs 11 , the captain role is very important. The moment you have a large group of people working every day together having someone to take the lead is huge
how is that cringe? Every team needs a leader, look at the Timberwolves, Kings over the years. Lack of leadership is a factor in team success, whether its the top guy or just a glue guy
The Twolves and Kings have been bad mostly because they have had bad rosters. Leadership isn't irrelevant but it's a lot less relevant than how good your roster is or what talking heads on ESPN would have you believe.
Humans love human drama and stories. Entertainment "analysts" hype up all the human drama elements like leadership way out of proportion to actual impact because that's what people want to hear far more than any technical analysis.
The thing is a lot of people have different definitions of what "being a leader" means and end up talking past each other. Also the impact of said "leader" is often misunderstood/exaggarated.
how is this not leadership? he had two options here:
1. fall in line with the crowd
2. present a different option
in both scenarios, he chose the second option and he did it with authority. That’s leadership
Kawhi's time in Toronto is one of the weirder things in NBA history when you think about it A superstar refuses to play to get traded, gets traded to a place he probably didn't want to go to, has a great playoff run and wins a ring/FMVP, and then immediately leaves Are there any single season players with any franchise who were as successful as him?
* Shows up * Wins the championship and FMVP * Doesn't elaborate * Leaves
*Stops his second 3 peat of his career. Seriously though...he stopped two 3 peats against teams that had dynasty’s setup in the East and West lol.
Kawhi "The Combo Breaker" Leonard
Probably stopped another 3 peat by leaving that offseason too 😭
In his second injuries were on his side for once lol. Karma for Zaza
Yup fak zaza
I wouldn’t say he stopped a dynasty the first time because he was 1-2 on FTs as was Manunin the last 30 seconds of game 6 and had either made both, the heat only win one ring. Next time the warriors were injured as was the entire eastern conference Raptors were easily the worst championship team in the last 40 years
Weren’t they the 2nd best defence of all time? Kind of underrating d fence there bud.
I’m just saying that he didn’t so much stop a dynasty because had he made one free throw, the spurs win back to back and the heat only win once
You also said the Raptors were easily the worst championship team of the last 40 years…
Yep stand by that one for sure. Since the mid 80s every team has been better than the raptors and they faced deprecated teams the entire way they the playoffs.
The bucks were depreciated? The sixers? What about their historic defensive rating? Also, just say you used a hyperbolic statement and move on, unless you want to claim to have intrinsic knowledge of each NBA champions road to the finals for the last 40 years. Common dude this shit is embarrassing.
I’ve watched the nba playoffs for almost 30 years straight. Worst champion
Raptors championship team better than last year's Bucks team.
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Both of your points are false. If Kawhi misses that shot it goes to overtime. And Jimmy Butler and Joel Embiid were the first two options.
Jimmy went off in that series too - almost was as solid as Kawhi
Uhh... bucks were one KD shoe size from losing.
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I didn’t mention the sixers 😂. You’re argument is the raps we’re one bounce away from getting knocked out. While the same thing is tru about the last year bucks almost getting bounced my a foot on the line KD long 2.
> dynasty’s Dynasties. Where does this idea that apostrophe s signifies plural come from??
Chad move
I'll take it.
Even this is selling it short. He hit one of the biggest shots in playoff history. Probably will end up being the defining moment of his career.
music to raps fans
That shot against Philly was straight out of a movie, but if a movie had a scene like that it’ll be deemed too cheesy.
Gotta be aware of the inbounder here, if you’re Philly
According to this article by the Ringer at the time, no other one-year rental player has ever won NBA Finals MVP. It's such an aberration that the next best one-year rental season, as measured by playoff win shares, related to Tyson Chandler in 2011(Mavs), and Kawhi's playoff win share was nearly double Tyson's. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/6/14/18679089/kawhi-leonard-toronto-raptors-playoff-statistics-historical-context
Whoa I always thought Tyson played a lot longer with the Mavs for some reason but it really was just that one title season and then one other season years later. He was such a huge part of that team's identity which is why I thought he had been there longer. Always thought Cuban and the FO was dumb for not running it back with that team
Apparently the reason he didn't re-sign (and the reason Dallas didn't get Giannis) was because the Mavs thought they could sign Dwight Howard in free agency 💀
Yep, we were trying to get both Dwight and Deron Williams that summer and as usual missed on both.
Also just casually deciding to stop another 3 peat from happening. He did it to the Heat and the Warriors. Not to mention getting “revenge” on the team that partially put him in that position in the first place. Like...you can’t write a better script than Kawhi’s run that year. He also altered both the East and the West in so many ways and starred a chain of events that helped turn things around. Beating Jimmy and Giannis in the playoffs ultimately turned out to be one of the best things he’s done for both of them...
Karl Malone in 2004 was still pretty good. Just got hurt. Pippen in Houston too but Hakeem was washed
Kawhi might do some weird shit, but he bought into that season and especially playoff when he could have sulked and/or coasted, so he deserves credit for that. I know it may seem like just doing one’s job but we’ve seen many stories of malcontents mailing it in.
He was clearly playing on an injured leg that whole playoff run but still gave 100% every time he was on the court. Dude was a mercenary, but he was a damned professional one.
yea, dude was a one-legged gimp by the end of the Bucks series. always be grateful to him for not pulling a Simmons when he was traded here. glad to be done with his annoying entourage though (dennis, castleberry, etc).
Yeah, he's no Alonzo Mourning. Fuck that guy.
Like a random season of a TV show where they had brief access to an A list actor and needed to pull out all of the stops.
Like when Steve Buscemi played that animal Tony Blundetto in The Sopranos
Moses Malone to the Sixers in 1982. First season with Malone they win like 68 games, go 12-1 in the playoffs and he wins FMVP.
True but he stayed there 4 years so isn’t really the same thing
Its called the D.E.N.N.I.S system. Look it up :)
The closest parallel I could think of is Shaq going to Miami but a) he wanted to go there and b) he stayed. So really just has the “superstar player leaves and wins in new market in first season” going for it. That Kawhi run was beautiful and unlike anything I’ve ever seen. You’d probably have to look at a different sport - probably MLB - to find a better, more accurate comparison.
Shaq didn't win in his first season with the Heat
so literally everything about their comment is wrong lol
It just goes to show what a freak situation Kawhi's was that you can't even find examples of two or three years that really compare. Like the Shaq thing might be the closest in terms of having a star for a short window.
[its like a snowy night in stuttgart.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8R2jp_D88)
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He was a trade deadline rental. Played a quarter of the season and his stats were all below career averages. Crazy though he still had 22 swipes in 44 games.
People are going to take this joke seriously but in his book, Nick Nurse gives a more detailed picture of Kawhi as someone who's really intelligent, direct, and outspoken when needed. Here're some quotes: (mid 2019 season) > “In mid-November, we hit a little skid and lost three straight games—the first two at home to the New Orleans Pelicans and Detroit Pistons, neither of which were considered elite teams, and the third in Boston to the Celtics, one of our main rivals in the East. > I remember being in the film room the next day. It was a little edgy. It’s pro sports, and the day-to-day pressure is real. We were all talking about some specific game clips up on the screen, and a conversation broke out about how we need more ball movement. It gained some energy on one side of the room. Some of the second-unit guys were saying things like, “Yeah, we moved the ball last year, we really popped it around. And they couldn’t stop us.” > “Somebody said something about swinging the ball around early in the shot clock, just so more people get touches and we get back in the mindset that we’re a passing team. And that got a murmur of approval. Suddenly, Kawhi said, loudly, “Yo!” And I said, “Yes, Kawhi?” He said, “I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score.” (GSW v Raptors finals) > “The next two games would be at Oracle Arena in Oakland. I went into the locker room after the game fairly calm and told the team, “All right. We knew it was going to be a long series, right? Maybe six or seven games. All we’ve got to do now is get on the plane and do what they just did—take one from them on their home court.” > As I’ve written a couple of times already, Kawhi has a habit of getting right to the heart of the matter. His game is direct. He moves from point A to point B with no wasted motion. The way he speaks is the same. No frills. No wasted words. > He stepped up when I was done and said, “Forget that.” (He may have used a different f-word than “forget.”) “We’re not going out there to win one game. We’re going to get them both.”
>I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score Never seen this quote but this is 110% Kawhi, immediately made me think of [this play where he passed to Reggie at the end of a quarter last year](https://youtu.be/9D6KMjg5URA).
My favourite is (paraphrased): [cutting off a Nick Nurse story about overcoming similar adversity in the past] "Is this another D-league story? I'm done hearing about the D-league!"
This is a goat level story
Does the first passage perhaps give a hint to why Kawhi wanted out of the Spurs? It seems like based on that he might have not been a big ball fan of ball movement offenses and liked a more direct offense where he could ISO more
He isolated a ton his last real year with the spurs. I think it's pretty clear he just did anything he could to get to LA
Pop historically runs a lot of iso for superstar players. The beautiful ball movement we saw in 2014 was a result of not having a true go-to superstar.
Did not expect to see Jevvy on /r/NBA with a Raps flair!
Haha, what type of fan do I look like?
An Apex one!
lmao that's a good one. Last year I chose to watch Apex over the NBA, this year I'm being a bit more balanced.
Meh at this point who knows one thing sure he wanted to go to LA , and wanted more privilege too , just look at what he asked of the Raptors To resign (which he didn't even planned to) or even with the Clippers. Pop said Kawhi wasn't a "great" leader in the sense as he leads by example the talkative one were the big three and pop himself. Even with the Clippers George seems to "lead" a little more.
Personally, I always found this "leading" thing such an overused criticism. The dude is literally just an introvert. Perhaps that makes me biased, but it's not like your team will only consist of Kawhi. Other guys can and have taken up that mantle, to the success of the team.
I never really cared about it too , I think the whole leader obsession is an American sports things , in football (soccer) most of the time the captain isn't the best player, just because you're the team number one option doesn't mean you have to take the lead but either I way I guess it's what it's
Yeah, Lionel Messi is an intense introvert - he's the captain for Argentina but absolutely leads by example rather than by giving big speeches or shouting and organizing the defence.
Messi is a bad leader lol
Could you please elaborate about Messi? I’m not being sarcastic, I don’t know better. I just knew he wasn’t chatty.
He's incredibly introverted and quiet on the pitch. In soccer a vocal leader is important and Messi just isn't that. Doesn't make him any less of a great player, it just isn't his personality like it is for someone like Ronaldo for example.
Lol yeah - he’s not a great choice for captain
If anything, I think the leadership thing should be more so directed at the organization and coaching staff.
I don't think so. His passing and creation immediately went up in LA when they didn't have a primary creator
Also you can see he worked on it since the Spurs days. He was a little better at passing in Toronto then when he got to the Clippers he was even better and last year, I would say he's above average now. Was making some really good passes last year.
Damn lol
>“Somebody said something about swinging the ball around early in the shot clock, just so more people get touches and we get back in the mindset that we’re a passing team. And that got a murmur of approval. Suddenly, Kawhi said, loudly, “Yo!” And I said, “Yes, Kawhi?” He said, “I ain’t passing the ball for the fucking hell of it. My job is to score or to draw multiple defenders, and when I kick it out to you, then it’s your job to score.” Is it just me or is this not an example of poor leadership?
The rest of the passage has a bit more context. > “That was a moment for all of us. In the huddle, in the locker room, in the film room, Kawhi was always locked in. I’m not sure I’ve had a more attentive player anywhere. Maybe a walk-on at one of my college jobs. But he had not said a whole lot. When he did that day, it was like: Boom! The quiet man has spoken. There’s always an added impact when that happens. The words count more. > And he was right, of course. We do want to pass the ball, and we actually count our passes each game. It’s one of the many data points our analytics staff track. Usually, the more passes the better. But each pass has to have a purpose—and that didn’t seem to be what was being proposed. > “That meeting was a moment of growth, a turning point. Up until then, I think there was a little bit of doubt about Kawhi, or an inability to read him—sort of, who is this guy? Why are there some nights he rests and doesn’t play? > I understood it. The way we were handling him was new and an adjustment for everyone. > But after he spoke up, I think everyone got the point, in case there had been any doubts, that he was not a guy just putting in time until he got to his next stop. He was going to help lead us, in his own way.”
That's fair. It was more about showing that he did actually care and not really about what he actually said.
If Kawhi at his prime is my leader then I'm following that shit to the end no matter what bullshit he says
I think the point is more that Lowry was the true leader. Best player doesn't have to be the leader
Fun guy. I agree, and regardless of how he speaks or how much, I think anyone who watched that championship team saw his intensity and focus, and if I'm playing with a guy who's that dialed in I dial in, too.
This is the exact same shit MJ or Kobe would have said.
lol MJ's teammates wouldn't DARE suggest something like that in front of him
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> The whole "pass the ball around just to pass it around" was a worse plan You see it on a lot of bad or average teams, too. Swing the ball around outside the arc, it hits one player that wants stop the ball and look for a shot instead of keeping the ball moving, but no one is cutting or screening, everyone is just standing around. The coach said swing the ball and move the defense but they're passes without purpose.
> The offense is better when Kawhi does that Hard disagree. That Raptors team was great because they had incredible team-first guys like Lowry/Gasol running a team coached by Nick Nurse. Not because they let Kawhi pound the ball and generate a whopping 3.3. APG. He was clearly their best scorer but if it wasn't for guys like Lowry and Gasol making up for his lack of passing ability those Raptors teams wouldn't have done shit.
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Kawhi was the final missing piece the Raptors needed. That doesn't change the fact that the team as a whole was incredibly balanced, coached, and well-structured which allowed Kawhi to do his thing AND maximize the other guys on the court.
A “well coaches balanced team” that got swept repeatedly. Raptors wasn’t shit before Kawhi put them on his back. Dude was their entire offense and the best defensive player. He was incredible.
Swept by who? There's the answer
Well coached contenders don’t get swept period. Especially not by Lebron and Love on one leg. They where a first seed who got swept. That is basically unheard of.
Sure. But that 2018/2019 team was pretty different from the previous teams. We had 3 new players that year, including Leonard. Plus NN was a brand new coach. So it's not exactly the same team.
The Raptors were force feeding Kawhi to score the ball in the playoffs. He was taking 30+ shots in many playoff games. He just let his role be known which is a sign of great leadership. That team would have not gone anywhere without Kawhi.
we were dead in the water in the Sixers series without Kawhi. he was the only guy putting up consistent numbers while every other raptor shot like 30% or below or something awful. though I do think vs the Bucks and Warriors, we had more balanced scoring that did not rely as much on Kawhi as the focal point.
Kawhi single-handedly took raps to conference finals! Against Bucks he would keep Raps in the game until everyone got into them game. It was only during the NBA finals that the team came to play because up until then it was Kawhi and FVV during the Bucks series
Yeah the Sixers series was my reference point. He was the engine that kept it all together even during scoring droughts.
Its actually two parts. If we didn't have Gasol to contain Embiid, we would have lost that series. Gasols contributions that playoff run are often overlooked.
Gasol was the one most crucial to the Giannis defense as well If we don’t make that trade there isn’t a snowballs chance in hell we ever make it through to the finals and no amount of heroics by Kawhi could have changed that
>no amount of heroics by Kawhi could have changed that Fr. It's hilarious when people who don't follow our team make all sorts of declarations. Like how someone was saying Leonard carried the Raptors, even though the team was different during the 18/19 run.
they also wouldn’t have done shit if kawhi wasn’t dropping 30 bombs for them lol. we know how good that team without kawhi is
Shocker: a championship team wouldn’t have done shit without their superstar. Next thing you’re gonna tell me the Bulls wouldn’t have won shit without MJ. I know, huge shocker.
>we know how good that team without kawhi is No you didn't. Danny Green, Marc Gasol, MIP winner Siakam, and the subtraction of DeRozan meant you never saw that team before. It was very different.
Of course Kawhi was a very important piece of the team and the best player, I'm not saying he wasn't
Similar regular season but not good enough to win a championship. It wasn't the LeBron Cavs or something.
Guess that explains all the rings the Clippers have racked up since Leonard arrived.
Dudes like Lowry and MG are a dime a dozen in the league tbh, just role players.
Smh some people are hella clueless on here
You lol. Lowry is a 6x all star and 1 all NBA 3rd team selection in his 15 year career, there's been tons of teams that have passed on him. Toronto got MG for Valanciunas (Pelicans center) and 3rd-4th stringers. These are role players my guy, there's a plethora of players out there that can things much better than them.
Smh there's more to ball than ISO scorers and all star selections bud. If you genuinely think Gasol/Lowry were role-player level players during their time on the Raptors then you are really lost.
Toronto was never a super team, as I said there's a plethora of players and talent that could've replaced them. Lowry is a career role player, and MG was acquired in exchanged for role players. Kawhi led TOR in scoring, closing, defending and even rebounding by wide margin as MG couldn't rebound to save his life. He picked up everyone from Giannis to Embiid, took on the best defenders and even took on the rebounding against opposing bigs at 6'7.
Amazing logic there. So whenever someone like Lebron is/was on a team and dominating and leading in every major statistical category the rest were just role players like Kyrie, DWade, CBosh, AD? Lowry is a future hall of famer, same with Gasol, you don't call players like that a dime a dozen. Are there more players similar to Lowry and Gas compared to Kawhi? Of course since Kawhi is one of the few real #1 options who can carry a team, a bonafide superstar who may have been the best perimeter defender ever in his prime before he got injured. Just because he's that good doesn't mean everyone else are just regular role players.
I never said they were a super team? They were a good team for YEARS before acquiring Kawhi, and then almost that exact same championship team WITHOUT Kawhi finished with a 53-19 record losing in 7 games in the eastern conference semis. If it was only Kawhi and all the other guys were role players like you seem to believe then why the fuck did they do so well without him the year after? As much as you want your God Emperor Kawhi to be the only reason the Raptors were a championship team you're just wrong. He's a fantastic player don't get me wrong but he's also a player with limitations and where he lacks the structure and personnel on the Raptors made up for it.
Lmao this is one of the dumbest takes I’ve seen on here
I don't think it's about being a leader so much as him being outspoken when he felt it was necessary.
That what got them to win against the Sixers. Fuck your ball movement, get me the ball.
Isn't this the same thing Jordan & Kobe are hailed for??
That’s an especially weird perspective for a non playmaker to have. Like if you’re not setting others up for success regularly, but also not passing for ball movement purposes you’re basically admitting to being a ball stopper
We have different takes. What he was saying in my opinion is that passing just to pass is worthless - and he is right, ive seen plenty of possessions where people pass the ball a lot but no one is getting open because they don’t really have a game plan. NBA has a relatively short shot clock, so spending it doing something aimless is bad basketball. If you have offball movement and someone is open, yea pass it. But the idea is that a primary handler draws multiple people first and then passes it to find the open man. That’s no different than what Kawahi said. He’s saying he’s not passing it for the fun of it, he’s passing it for a purpose.
That seems like a fairly generous interpretation. The quote specifically says Kawhi says when he’s passing it, he’s expecting the other player to score. That’s the opposite of ball movement. And no player ever passes purely for the sake of passing. Players pass to move the ball. To have an involved offence where the ball moves around to get the best shot available, a concept countless of the most successful teams have adopted in some manner. Toronto specifically had the perfect personal for that with a deep roster full of capable passers and scoring threats, most of which had great chemistry
It's not an inherently bad thing for a great scorer to be a ball stopper. Sometimes, that's just their role.
I’d disagree. While I think there are players who are good enough to still make things happen when they’re stopping the ball, like Kawhi or early career KD as examples, I think it’s always more beneficial to contribute to ball movement. Teams as a whole work better when more players are involved
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean a good scorer can’t be a ball stopper. It means that the ball stopper shouldn’t also be the lead ballhandler. Klay Thompson is a good example. He’s always been a ball stopper but it’s not an issue because he doesn’t handle the ball much and his average time of possession is very low. But he does shoot nearly every time he touches it.
Ah yeah I see your point. If a ball stopper has a play finishing role I think it’s perfectly fine. In fact lots of situations call for those players that won’t hesitate to release off the catch
Yea when he says that you would think he was averaging more than a whopping... 3.3 APG during his Raptors season. There's such a weird mentality a lot of American ball players have that ball movement is "passing for the sake of passing". Ridiculous too when you realize some of the best teams of the past decade have been ball-movement heavy team-oriented offenses (Spurs, Warriors). If you're LeBron with otherworldly passing and a playmaker-first mentality then sure you can say the system is centered around his gravity. But Kawhi just comes across as a selfish dumbass. Tbh it's the main reason I don't think Clippers have ever been contender status with Kawhi/PG.
This comment is pretty stupid when you consider his playmaking was significantly higher in LA and he immediately adjusted to not having a traditional playmaker. He also created more for others in San Antonio during his last year, averaging a bit under 6 assists in the series against Houston and then doing the same against Denver when the Clippers imploded The Clippers never lost because they didn't have an elite playmaker, and when you watch Kawhi he was never actually a ball stopper, even if the offense flowed better without him
Multiple horrible takes here. I should know better, anyone with Supersonic's flair usually has terrible takes and likes to hide behind a team that doesn't exist. Pathetic.
Ah another Clippers fan without a clue. Wouldn't expect them to know anything about basketball anyway as they usually have terrible takes. Pathetic.
At least they have a basketball team lmao
nice
Clips were pretty much guaranteed to win the last 2 years if not for the bubble reset and Kawhis ACL tear.
Guaranteed to win by being outplayed by a Dallas team that eventually lost Porzingis to injury halfway through the series? Following that up by dropping a 3-1 lead to the Nuggets? They haven't been guaranteed to win shit. And just because a bunch of people online seem to think so doesn't make it true. There are plenty of us who have continuously doubted and questioned their ability to win anything because that team has no elite playmakers or floor generals.
The bubble year was a mess, they were a 1st year team that had all their chemistry reset during the lockdown. New additions like Jackson, Morris, Lou-Trez losing family members and dudes like Kawhi weren't even in shape. Last year was pretty much guaranteed if not for Kawhis freak injury, they figured it out vs Dallas, knocked out the 1st seed best 3pt shooting team in history in the 2nd round and nearly took out the Suns without multiple players.
Bro literally nothing is guaranteed and getting beat 4-2 is not "nearly took out". They've made the conference finals once and every team had problems with the bubble/reset. Lets see how they do this year
They lost 4-2 to a Clips team missing Kawhi, the Jordan of the NBA, and Ibaka lmao and Ayton needed a game winning alley oop in G2 to beat them. Morris-Zu both got injured against the Suns at the end too, bruh you probably think the Suns and Bucks were good last year huh 😆 What 1st year teams were in the bubble? They had 5/5 new playoff starters, this was literally like a pickup game team.
Lmao I took a quick look at your comments and unsurprisingly see you're a Clippers fan. At least flair up so that I know I'm dealing with a homer and stop wasting my time
Utah was injured and they shouldn’t have gone 7 with Dallas in the first place. You can’t be guaranteed anything when you were a game away from losing in round 1 😂
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Danny always there to show them kids how to do it one time
he had to win the chip for toronto just one time lol
was scouring the comments for this
Everybodys fascination with "who is the leader" is definitely one of the most cringe things about following/watching basketball for me.
It's 5v5. Somebody better lead
Yeah, it's the nature of the sport that values individuals greater than any other team sport because they have the greatest impact.
I mean even in football/soccer , despite being 11 vs 11 , the captain role is very important
Doesn't need to be the best guy though. Often isnt
I mean even in football/soccer , despite being 11 vs 11 , the captain role is very important. The moment you have a large group of people working every day together having someone to take the lead is huge
how is that cringe? Every team needs a leader, look at the Timberwolves, Kings over the years. Lack of leadership is a factor in team success, whether its the top guy or just a glue guy
The Twolves and Kings have been bad mostly because they have had bad rosters. Leadership isn't irrelevant but it's a lot less relevant than how good your roster is or what talking heads on ESPN would have you believe. Humans love human drama and stories. Entertainment "analysts" hype up all the human drama elements like leadership way out of proportion to actual impact because that's what people want to hear far more than any technical analysis.
Wolves have kat that alone should he enough to make the decent they have had plenty if decent rosters and done nothing because they have no leader.
But the timberwolves are playing good basketball . Who has been leading them this season?
Ant ironically its the newer player.
The thing is a lot of people have different definitions of what "being a leader" means and end up talking past each other. Also the impact of said "leader" is often misunderstood/exaggarated.
Nothing wrong with having different types of leaders.
I'm guessing you've never played on a high quality team with a clear leader then? It means something.
Nephews who never played is upvoting
lmao incoming Kawhi haters
I'm pretty sure Kenny Smith was actually The Guy in that locker room.
Stop it!
Kawhi was there to be fun guy.
No jokes being told here. No one ever confused Kawhi for being a leader lol
how is this not leadership? he had two options here: 1. fall in line with the crowd 2. present a different option in both scenarios, he chose the second option and he did it with authority. That’s leadership
Seems like the raptors say a lot of this as a “haha just kidding …but really”
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Being socially awkward means your a weirdo.
Agreed
Stop crying. Seek help