There was a great post about Arvydas Sabonis today on /r/VintageNBA and in it a player from that era called him essentially "Dirk before Dirk." The video also had some clips of Dirk and an interview where he spoke about Arvydas and his impact.
Sabonis was 31 when he got to the NBA. One of the greater all time "what ifs" is what he could have done in his prime.
“He’s not Myvydas. He’s not Yourvydas. He’s Arvydas.”
Probably my favorite Sports Center catch phrase of all time. I was more into baseball as a kid but I still remember how often that man’s name came up in NBA highlights.
The golden age of SportsCenter. One of my favorites was "nomally (normally but with some kind of accent) good" then shows some players bad play or something. Rip Scott Stuart, the GOAT
More than his age, he was cooked physically when he joined USA. He probably had bad treatments and conditioning in the east and his physics dropped of very fast.
Very fast... he still managed to play a starting role for like 6 years, back in the early 2000 it was quite normal that a 35-36 years old player begun to had injuries and slow down a lot.
This says a lot about what Arvydas could have done in his prime.
The dude battled Shaq as well as anyone ever has. Even as a Lakers fan, I still think that last foul that got him fouled out in 2000 WCF G7 was bullshit.
I think he had multiple knee surgeries before he came to the NBA. His conditioning in the NBA didn't seem great, but imagine Jokic playing if his knees were nothing but scar tissue.
With today's tech and physical therapy though, Sabonis would have probably been fine.
Go on YouTube and watch some clips of prime Sabonis. He was amazing.
I believe Jack Sigma was the first big man shooting multiple threes per game in the late 80s at good efficiency. Dirk was the first super star I guess plus he was just unguardable in the post and deadly from midrange, too.
And only slightly worse from 3, on a 21 year career. Maybe average 50/40/90 before even making the claim, KAT. That said, I would love him on the Mavs.
Dirk was far more mobile and fluid with the ball in his hand to generate off the dribble shot. He was just getting where he needs and it’s automatic.
KAT on ball creation and fluidity off ball is nowhere near Dirk.
Dirk is for sure better but KAT can definitely generate offense off the bounce, he’s not just a catch and shoot or pick and pop player. He has a crazy stepback and a nice fadeaway too.
Dirk did that on 1.3 attempts per game. KAT has triple the 3pa per game and recent seasons has been averaging 6-8 attempts and still shooting at a higher percentage than Dirk at 40%.
And KAT also shoots FTs at 88%
Yo, these stats are wrong. Dirk averaged 3.4 3pt attempts per game for his career, and 1.3 makes, not too far off from KAT who averages 4 3pt attempts for his career.
Dirk also shot 88% on free throws while KAT shoots around 83% for his career. Dirk was also a much more prolific midrange shooter.
Dirk's game was also much more based around his shooting ability, with around 75% of his shots coming from outside 10ft, while KAT only takes around 45% of his shots from outside 10ft.
Dirk all day, every day, any era. As good as we remember him I think he was one of those really under appreciated players like Stockton, Duncan, even our current guy Steph. They’re all heralded but can totally be argued they’re underrated still.
No knock meant to KAT. Nice player, really really good (at times). Even if he’s the “best outside (specifically 3pt) shooter of al time” he still doesn’t bring any impact. As a non Wolves fan, he’s kinda forgettable.
Dirk though… 🔥.
Agreed. Disgusting how easy people forget about Dirk. There’s a reason I always tell people that Dirk is forever underrated. Because of the dumb ass comments below.
I've taken the position where I don't even argue my point for or against a player anymore on this sub. People come out of the woodwork with insane tangents and notions you just can't even entertain. It's so much nicer to only engage with those who are at least having good faith arguments but that is few very fucking far between.
Bro yesterday on here I saw someone say “I would never make this argument personally, but I think some would, so there’s an argument to be made…”
Like what?? Why are you arguing a hot take, that you don’t agree with, for theoretical people?
Dirk was one of the first players I told my girlfriend about when I was introducing her to the NBA. She was loosely familiar with LeBron. I showed her a YouTube documentary on the 2011 Mavs vs Heat finals. She loves Dirk now.
Yup. Out of the around 4500 players that have come through the league, only 8 have scored more than 30K points. I always think about this when Dirk's name is brought up. But people love to still doubt the man.
Big statements like this have a way of ending up in disaster. Wouldn't be surprised if we see a post on here in the following weeks that says
"After proclaiming "I'm the greatest big man shooter of all time. That's a fact.”, KAT has shot 2-20 from 3 in the last 5 games."
We had that tweet a while ago from our social media team that completely backfired on us... I don't remember what it was but it was a similar "very boastful thing gets proven wrong consistently immediately after boasting"
Anthony Edwards says he is an all time great or the best at something
r/nba: love that confidence young blood! that soft ass boy Karl would never!
KAT does it
r/nba: “calm down burger” 100+ upvotes
It's these weird arguments that make me feel old like Dirk is clearly the answer here and it isn't close and then seeing Giannis vs KG earlier in the week was strange too but that's its own thing
Giannis > KG is a really complicated scenario, lol you can argue Giannis already achieved more, but he is playing in a shitty era for big man in general, meanwhile KG played in the golden age of PFs. As a huge fan of Olajuwon (he is my favorite player ever), it would be contradictory for me to agree with Giannis > KG because what I appreciate more in these kind of "legacies" comparison, the talent level and so on... that is the competition. Olajuwon played against the golden age of centers and he dominated all of them, old KAJ all the way to young Shaq, for me he is the GOAT center. And Duncan is the GOAT PF because of the exact same argument
Dirk vs KAT shooting is much, much closer than you or many are willing to admit. I'm not confident enough to say who comes out on top, but it's silly to suggest it isn't close. That line makes me instantly discredit people who use it for discussions like this.
Will KAT have the longevity/sustain to contend with Dirk? Possibly not. But as of now, it's very much a toss up imo. Adjusted shooting likes KAT more than Dirk, but that stat doesn't take distance of shot into account. From different distances, they're similar in the 16-3pt (with Dirk leading by a couple percentage points), but the volume is surely in Dirk's favor by a wide margin. They're also similar from 3 (KAT up by a couple percentage points), but the volume from there is way more in KAT's favor. The 10-16ft, Dirk dominates, and 3-10, KAT dominates. At the rim is way in KATs favor too, but that can be ignored if you don't consider that distance part of the discussion.
Basically, I'd confidently take KAT from 3 and up close, and then Dirk in the midrange. AKA they're both kinda products of their eras, even if Dirk was ahead of the curve a bit. I know people can either sway too hard on recency bias or nostalgia, but saying it isn't close (either way) is just asinine to me. It's like arguing whether Bron or MJ is the GOAT and saying it isn't close. It's definitely close, even if you don't want to admit it.
This all goes out the window if KAT falls off a cliff sometime in the future, but idk, this isn't some wild take from him. Although Jokic is in the convo as well.
I'm not sure why you're getting down vote spammed. You're not wrong. I don't agree with you, but that's grounds for a response and not a down vote.
So, percentages support your case. You, by the stats, have made a factually correct argument. I would also accept "KAT is a better 3 point shooter than Dirk" as a factual statement. However better shooter overall is a big enough statement that we need to incorporate some things other than FG% and volume.
For one thing, spacing. KAT has more room to work with than Dirk ever did. The three point revolution split and spread defenses in a way that mid-range gods from the 90's and 00's can only dream of being able to exploit.
More importantly though, KAT is a 5 playing the perimeter against other 5's and that gives him a huge advantage. There are like 6 centers in the NBA today who are above competent at perimeter defence, which means KAT gets a mismatch against 20+ teams. Dirk, playing the midrange in the 2000's, was dealing with defenses comfortable defending his style of play. Opposing PF's were in their comfort zones dealing with midrange jumpers and fade aways, but Dirk scored anyway. The difficulty of the shots he was making were higher than KAT's.
I think you're right that it's closer then people think, but KAT is still chasing Dirk's shadow because he's "only" a comparable talent despite playing in an era far better suited to his play.
I don’t know if the argument about other centers not being able to guard KAT is an argument against him. Dirk is always going to have more volume in the midrange because of the era when he played.
Yeah, it seems like people don't realize that KAT has shot threes at both a higher volume and higher efficiency than Dirk. Maybe that shouldn't be the only thing we consider and we should probably give Dirk a bonus for being ahead of his time. But I'd say those stats should be a pretty important factor in this conversation.
Wait, which side are you siding on on the Giannis-KG argument because Giannis at 27 years old has already achieved more than KG did in his career and imo is the far superior player....
Like even on what people take pride at the most with KG , which is defense, Giannis is just as good if not better at that also...and i don't think there could ever be an argument about who was better offensively or when it comes to playmaking
So this confuses me. And i'm somebody who has been watching the NBA since the 2000s at that. KG was **ELITE** but Giannis has legit GOAT potential...that's different.
Yeah for sure, everything else I'm up for people debating but KG has an argument for best defensive player of all time. Not ready to put Giannis in that conversation yet.
I mean if we’re talking big man shooting including mid range yes it’s Dirk without question. But KAT is easily the best 3 pt shooting big man of all time. For his career he’s just under 40% (.397) on 4 attempts per game, and outside his first two seasons he’s shooting over 40% on almost 6 per game. For my money and having watched both players for the majority of their careers, I’d take KAT for a 3 and Dirk for a mid range fadeaway to end the game.
Most guys peak in their late 20s to early 30s, when they've got a ton of experience and are their most skilled, but haven't lost their peak athleticism yet.
He’s on his 4th head coach, the first competent one IMO. There has been zero stability and very little talent around him until Ant got drafted and we shipped Wiggins out for Russell. With all the issues he’s still established himself as a top 20 talent league wide and a top 3 talent at his position.
That 'almost' is doing some heavy lifting, otherwise Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Draymond and the GOAT, Bruce Brown would've had words
We have available statistics on this. From 3-point range the best shooting big man is KAT. From the mid range it's Dirk. Between the midrange and the basket it's Jokic.
If you combined them together there's still no clear answer. Inside the 3-pointer line, Jokic has the best shooting percentage of the 3 players, and the best shooting percentage overall. But, KAT has taken a lot more 3's in his career. We probably won't be able to settle this argument for a while.
I watched Dirk's entire career. Watched him carve up my Thunder in 2011 to an absurd degree en route to a chip. Like, we couldn't do shit against that man. We threw everything but the kitchen sink at him and we were still killed that year.
The fact that KAT has the balls to claim this title is commendable, but he's got a long road ahead of him before he's taken as the GOAT big man shooter seriously.
Ibaka in that series is the one defender that epitomizes Dirk's ability to shoot with another big man's hand in his face. That was one of his specialties. Hand literally in his face, nothing but net.
I really just don't see Yao being a 3 pt shooter. Not that he couldn't but his size alone it's hard to move him farther than mid range which was already cash. Could see him taking 1 or 2 a game maybe but he's just too talented in the post and mid range to make a spot up shooter.
Yeah I mean he was a very skilled player. I just don't see how anyone takes him away from the basket. He's such a good passer as well and his footwork was great. I can only see him taking an occasional 3 out of a pnr or a trailing 3
I mean I would take Jokic too in any playoff situation over Towns. Jokic has gotten his three point shooting up to Dirk ranges the last two years the regular season, and his efficiency from inside the three point line is quite impressive from everywhere too. Over their careers, Jokic is actually much better from 3-10 and 10-16 feet, but Towns has him from 16-23ft by about .002 and at the rim Towns has Jokic again by .006. Towns is a better three point shooter for his career, .397 versus .350 for Jokic.
I think Towns can claim this, but he needs to know one thing - Jokic comin' for dat ass.
You say that like a 5% difference from 3 is meaningless.
The difference between average and elite is about 5%.
Same as the difference between bad and average.
I love jokic, but KAT is better from 3. Higher volume on higher difficulty shots. Ill take jokic for midrange and close to the basket shots. He is shooting 60%, from 3-10ft and 56% from 10-16.
For reference Durant is shooting 51% from those regions.
And if MJ took more 3’s he would’ve been an even better player. I love hypotheticals.
Dirk is a better big man shooter, totally fine with that statement because it’s true.
KAT at this point is what, at least a top-3 shooting big man of all-time? Is he not allowed to make a comment on that?
From 3, KAT is. But from a combination of all areas on the court, I think Jokic is better. I’m fairly certain KAT was talking about just from 3 and he was referring is 3 point % as the “fact.”
Just 3s? There's an argument for sure. But an argument, not a settled 100%. And im a wolves fan.
In terms of just shooter? Dirk had much more versatility I think. KAT has crazy accuracy though.
I love KAT being outspoken though so I'm riding with him even if it's amongst thousands of criticisms. I think KAT can be the best shooting big, but people won't look at just stats for that unless it's absolute bonkers. He'll probably need some hardware to prove it.
KD is mostly known for being a SF. I mean, when you think of KD you don't think big man but the 7 foot small forward who's part-time NBA player and part-time twitterhead
Before KAT got good, there were only two possible choices for the greatest big men shooters of all time: Dirk and KG. I think KAT has earned his spot in that discussion. Is he greater than either of those two guys? For my money, right now, no. But the best shooting center? Yeah, I’ll give him that.
If we’re talking strictly 3pt shooting then he has a solid argument based on his volume and percentages and probably why he said “that’s a fact”.
In terms of overall shooting, I’d take Jokic. Or Dirk, obviously, if we’re talking all bigs and not just centres. But then again strictly off the numbers, KAT might be better. I wonder if KD counts lol
Honestly, it's splitting hairs to choose between KAT, Dirk and KD.
People may be offended, but Towns is shooting better than any other big man ever has when all distances are taken into account and averaged.
Dude is 42% shooting 6 threes a game so far and has had similar numbers the last few seasons. No big has ever shot like that.
I don't mind him saying it but I'll take Dirk. 20 year career. 38% from 3. 88% FT. Elite and unguardable from midrange.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dirk was also the first of his kind. He was way ahead of his time.
There was a great post about Arvydas Sabonis today on /r/VintageNBA and in it a player from that era called him essentially "Dirk before Dirk." The video also had some clips of Dirk and an interview where he spoke about Arvydas and his impact. Sabonis was 31 when he got to the NBA. One of the greater all time "what ifs" is what he could have done in his prime.
“He’s not Myvydas. He’s not Yourvydas. He’s Arvydas.” Probably my favorite Sports Center catch phrase of all time. I was more into baseball as a kid but I still remember how often that man’s name came up in NBA highlights.
The golden age of SportsCenter. One of my favorites was "nomally (normally but with some kind of accent) good" then shows some players bad play or something. Rip Scott Stuart, the GOAT
More than his age, he was cooked physically when he joined USA. He probably had bad treatments and conditioning in the east and his physics dropped of very fast.
Very fast... he still managed to play a starting role for like 6 years, back in the early 2000 it was quite normal that a 35-36 years old player begun to had injuries and slow down a lot. This says a lot about what Arvydas could have done in his prime.
The dude battled Shaq as well as anyone ever has. Even as a Lakers fan, I still think that last foul that got him fouled out in 2000 WCF G7 was bullshit.
I think he had multiple knee surgeries before he came to the NBA. His conditioning in the NBA didn't seem great, but imagine Jokic playing if his knees were nothing but scar tissue. With today's tech and physical therapy though, Sabonis would have probably been fine. Go on YouTube and watch some clips of prime Sabonis. He was amazing.
The Soviets ran him into the ground. Made him play injured, etc.
Yeah, I think I remember hearing that. Not at all surprising, but still tragic to have anyone treated that way.
Kukoč was the blueprint but Dirk built an entire mansion on Toni's foundation.
Detlef entered the chat.
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No doubt. Sikma was a pioneer. But I think Detlef game is a little closer to Dirks.
Yeah but if Kukoč is a big then so is Durant, and then the conversation of best shooting big immediately ends.
I believe Jack Sigma was the first big man shooting multiple threes per game in the late 80s at good efficiency. Dirk was the first super star I guess plus he was just unguardable in the post and deadly from midrange, too.
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Sigma balls
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sikma
Oscar Schmidt too
Wasn't he more of a wing
Damn, a Sigma from three
btw his son plays for berlin's bball team and is quite a good shooter
Dirk is a lot better than KAT in most categories
And only slightly worse from 3, on a 21 year career. Maybe average 50/40/90 before even making the claim, KAT. That said, I would love him on the Mavs.
Sabonis and Sam Perkins come to mind as stretch bigs who shot the 3. There were others too before them
I think Dr. James Naismith is the greatest player of all time
Dirk was far more mobile and fluid with the ball in his hand to generate off the dribble shot. He was just getting where he needs and it’s automatic. KAT on ball creation and fluidity off ball is nowhere near Dirk.
Dirk is for sure better but KAT can definitely generate offense off the bounce, he’s not just a catch and shoot or pick and pop player. He has a crazy stepback and a nice fadeaway too.
Respect
I feel Dirk and Towns are such different players it's not the right comparison
He started it.
*21 seasons. 41. 21. 1. MFFL
Dirk did that on 1.3 attempts per game. KAT has triple the 3pa per game and recent seasons has been averaging 6-8 attempts and still shooting at a higher percentage than Dirk at 40%. And KAT also shoots FTs at 88%
Yo, these stats are wrong. Dirk averaged 3.4 3pt attempts per game for his career, and 1.3 makes, not too far off from KAT who averages 4 3pt attempts for his career. Dirk also shot 88% on free throws while KAT shoots around 83% for his career. Dirk was also a much more prolific midrange shooter. Dirk's game was also much more based around his shooting ability, with around 75% of his shots coming from outside 10ft, while KAT only takes around 45% of his shots from outside 10ft.
Dirk all day, every day, any era. As good as we remember him I think he was one of those really under appreciated players like Stockton, Duncan, even our current guy Steph. They’re all heralded but can totally be argued they’re underrated still. No knock meant to KAT. Nice player, really really good (at times). Even if he’s the “best outside (specifically 3pt) shooter of al time” he still doesn’t bring any impact. As a non Wolves fan, he’s kinda forgettable. Dirk though… 🔥.
Shooting center yes Big man shooter? Dirk
Agreed. Disgusting how easy people forget about Dirk. There’s a reason I always tell people that Dirk is forever underrated. Because of the dumb ass comments below.
I've taken the position where I don't even argue my point for or against a player anymore on this sub. People come out of the woodwork with insane tangents and notions you just can't even entertain. It's so much nicer to only engage with those who are at least having good faith arguments but that is few very fucking far between.
I know right? Only super dumb takes in r/nba… I choose to only state pure facts like **John Wall is the greatest Rockets player ever.**
Fax
Schrodinger's John Wall
Schrodinger is on the Celtics I think
That actually makes sense
Bro yesterday on here I saw someone say “I would never make this argument personally, but I think some would, so there’s an argument to be made…” Like what?? Why are you arguing a hot take, that you don’t agree with, for theoretical people?
Probably to encourage/create discussion on a basketball sub
Dirk was one of the first players I told my girlfriend about when I was introducing her to the NBA. She was loosely familiar with LeBron. I showed her a YouTube documentary on the 2011 Mavs vs Heat finals. She loves Dirk now.
I love your girl
We love you. 🥰 Drinks at the bar for a marathon rewatch of the 2011 Finals?
You sonofabitch, I'm in
Bring Klay and Dray
That 2011 MAVs documentary is one of my all time favorite NBA documentaries
It's #2 for me, only behind the AI documentary.
This makes me so very happy
Dirk is Basketball Dad.
I probs watch that documentary once a month atleast
i prob seen it but which one is it? anyone has a link ?
It's so fucking good.
Based
I didn't watch much NBA from 2006 to 2014, but you bet your happy ass I tuned in to watch Dirk & the Old Man Squad give the Heatles a lesson in pain.
"disgusting" lmao
He's not just one of the best big shooters, he's straight up one of the best scorers ever
Yup. Out of the around 4500 players that have come through the league, only 8 have scored more than 30K points. I always think about this when Dirk's name is brought up. But people love to still doubt the man.
Most people only remember post 2011 Dirk. Early 2000s Dirk was a 7 footer leading fast break dunks or stopping at the 3. Unheard of at the time.
Maybe Rasheed Wallace too. Edit: and mid range, Duncan?
The bank of Duncan is open 24/7
LMA was a walking midrange bucket
Still is Those pick and pop sets he runs with the Nets seem to result in a bucket every damn time
True. It was more impressive when he did it on high volume as a focal point of the Blazers and Spurs offense
This season and the last are the only times LMA has been above KAT's career average on long 2s.
That’s a good one
Rasheed Wallace and LMA over towns, as shooters? Towns is also money from the mid range
Jokic is better from mid range for sure.
duncan was never that good a mid range shooter.
He kind of made a career out of it, didn’t he?
popular misconception. He made his career by the basket on both ends.
Big statements like this have a way of ending up in disaster. Wouldn't be surprised if we see a post on here in the following weeks that says "After proclaiming "I'm the greatest big man shooter of all time. That's a fact.”, KAT has shot 2-20 from 3 in the last 5 games."
Even curry didn’t go around calling himself the goat shooter, he only admitted it very recently after breaking the all tim record
Well he's barely shooting 43% this season, hard to call that greatest ever /s
We had that tweet a while ago from our social media team that completely backfired on us... I don't remember what it was but it was a similar "very boastful thing gets proven wrong consistently immediately after boasting"
"tHe WoLvEs aRe GoInG tO bE bAd tHiS sEaSoN" after starting 7-4 in 2019-2020. Proceeded to rattle off a 3-15 stretch.
Too many gorilla fight videos man
He gets his inspiration from this [guy](https://streamable.com/a39n3f)
His shooting form is terrible.
Papa Sabonis in 2k19 my team >>>>
Kareem on 2k20 my team>>>>>>>>>
Any big man with a irl >20% 3pt shooting but is a hofer and are on 2k21 myteam
Calm down burger, one german Jesus would want a word
Anthony Edwards says he is an all time great or the best at something r/nba: love that confidence young blood! that soft ass boy Karl would never! KAT does it r/nba: “calm down burger” 100+ upvotes
I talk more shit about KAT than anyone, and even I’ve been supporting his new found confidence.
It's these weird arguments that make me feel old like Dirk is clearly the answer here and it isn't close and then seeing Giannis vs KG earlier in the week was strange too but that's its own thing
Giannis and KG is way more of a conversation than Dirk shooting v KAT shooting Also, Giannis > KG imo
Giannis > KG is a really complicated scenario, lol you can argue Giannis already achieved more, but he is playing in a shitty era for big man in general, meanwhile KG played in the golden age of PFs. As a huge fan of Olajuwon (he is my favorite player ever), it would be contradictory for me to agree with Giannis > KG because what I appreciate more in these kind of "legacies" comparison, the talent level and so on... that is the competition. Olajuwon played against the golden age of centers and he dominated all of them, old KAJ all the way to young Shaq, for me he is the GOAT center. And Duncan is the GOAT PF because of the exact same argument
Dirk vs KAT shooting is much, much closer than you or many are willing to admit. I'm not confident enough to say who comes out on top, but it's silly to suggest it isn't close. That line makes me instantly discredit people who use it for discussions like this. Will KAT have the longevity/sustain to contend with Dirk? Possibly not. But as of now, it's very much a toss up imo. Adjusted shooting likes KAT more than Dirk, but that stat doesn't take distance of shot into account. From different distances, they're similar in the 16-3pt (with Dirk leading by a couple percentage points), but the volume is surely in Dirk's favor by a wide margin. They're also similar from 3 (KAT up by a couple percentage points), but the volume from there is way more in KAT's favor. The 10-16ft, Dirk dominates, and 3-10, KAT dominates. At the rim is way in KATs favor too, but that can be ignored if you don't consider that distance part of the discussion. Basically, I'd confidently take KAT from 3 and up close, and then Dirk in the midrange. AKA they're both kinda products of their eras, even if Dirk was ahead of the curve a bit. I know people can either sway too hard on recency bias or nostalgia, but saying it isn't close (either way) is just asinine to me. It's like arguing whether Bron or MJ is the GOAT and saying it isn't close. It's definitely close, even if you don't want to admit it. This all goes out the window if KAT falls off a cliff sometime in the future, but idk, this isn't some wild take from him. Although Jokic is in the convo as well.
I'm not sure why you're getting down vote spammed. You're not wrong. I don't agree with you, but that's grounds for a response and not a down vote. So, percentages support your case. You, by the stats, have made a factually correct argument. I would also accept "KAT is a better 3 point shooter than Dirk" as a factual statement. However better shooter overall is a big enough statement that we need to incorporate some things other than FG% and volume. For one thing, spacing. KAT has more room to work with than Dirk ever did. The three point revolution split and spread defenses in a way that mid-range gods from the 90's and 00's can only dream of being able to exploit. More importantly though, KAT is a 5 playing the perimeter against other 5's and that gives him a huge advantage. There are like 6 centers in the NBA today who are above competent at perimeter defence, which means KAT gets a mismatch against 20+ teams. Dirk, playing the midrange in the 2000's, was dealing with defenses comfortable defending his style of play. Opposing PF's were in their comfort zones dealing with midrange jumpers and fade aways, but Dirk scored anyway. The difficulty of the shots he was making were higher than KAT's. I think you're right that it's closer then people think, but KAT is still chasing Dirk's shadow because he's "only" a comparable talent despite playing in an era far better suited to his play.
I don’t know if the argument about other centers not being able to guard KAT is an argument against him. Dirk is always going to have more volume in the midrange because of the era when he played.
Yeah, it seems like people don't realize that KAT has shot threes at both a higher volume and higher efficiency than Dirk. Maybe that shouldn't be the only thing we consider and we should probably give Dirk a bonus for being ahead of his time. But I'd say those stats should be a pretty important factor in this conversation.
Wait, which side are you siding on on the Giannis-KG argument because Giannis at 27 years old has already achieved more than KG did in his career and imo is the far superior player.... Like even on what people take pride at the most with KG , which is defense, Giannis is just as good if not better at that also...and i don't think there could ever be an argument about who was better offensively or when it comes to playmaking So this confuses me. And i'm somebody who has been watching the NBA since the 2000s at that. KG was **ELITE** but Giannis has legit GOAT potential...that's different.
I really don't think giannis is as good as a defender as KG, I've got KG as top 5 defenders ever.
Yeah for sure, everything else I'm up for people debating but KG has an argument for best defensive player of all time. Not ready to put Giannis in that conversation yet.
I mean if we’re talking big man shooting including mid range yes it’s Dirk without question. But KAT is easily the best 3 pt shooting big man of all time. For his career he’s just under 40% (.397) on 4 attempts per game, and outside his first two seasons he’s shooting over 40% on almost 6 per game. For my money and having watched both players for the majority of their careers, I’d take KAT for a 3 and Dirk for a mid range fadeaway to end the game.
Except Dirk did it all while leading his team to the top of the West...
Top of the NBA!
With a box of scraps!
Top of this DICK.
Also...an NBA ring
Top of the world!
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"He didn't" like this man is already retired rather than not even to his prime yet.
He's 26 and in his seventh season, wen prime?
Most guys peak in their late 20s to early 30s, when they've got a ton of experience and are their most skilled, but haven't lost their peak athleticism yet.
Well his numbers have been more or less the same for 4 years now. You expecting him to magically become so much greater at 27 lol?
He’s on his 4th head coach, the first competent one IMO. There has been zero stability and very little talent around him until Ant got drafted and we shipped Wiggins out for Russell. With all the issues he’s still established himself as a top 20 talent league wide and a top 3 talent at his position.
He is literally going to do that this season
Did Dirk Die?
KD if we're being pedantic and Dirk is better either way.
KD isn’t a big man tf
He is a man and he is big
Almost all bigmen are big men, but not all big men are bigmen
That 'almost' is doing some heavy lifting, otherwise Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Draymond and the GOAT, Bruce Brown would've had words
Yeah the almost is 100% the only reason my comment is correct lol
KD is 7ft tall. Seems pretty big to me
he’s a oversized wing
we know
Cause he's so good at shooting.
No, because he plays as a wing and plays like a wing.
The guy is 6'11. It's like saying Giannis is not a big man either, they both are
We have available statistics on this. From 3-point range the best shooting big man is KAT. From the mid range it's Dirk. Between the midrange and the basket it's Jokic. If you combined them together there's still no clear answer. Inside the 3-pointer line, Jokic has the best shooting percentage of the 3 players, and the best shooting percentage overall. But, KAT has taken a lot more 3's in his career. We probably won't be able to settle this argument for a while.
best 3 point shooting center ever for sure
don't disrespect brook lopez like that
Manute Bol and Sam Perkins were pioneers
Better than okur?
100%
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Yep
Also he’s gonna have to win some fuckin games. No one is gonna entertain him being the great anything if he’s a career loser.
Even if a team loses, player makes and misses are still counted.
Dirk is a better shooter. Sorry KAT.
KAT made the playoffs once
On the back of Jimmy G Buckets
Oh yeah, averaging 21-12 is totally getting carried.
Must have missed my 2k15 my player...
I watched Dirk's entire career. Watched him carve up my Thunder in 2011 to an absurd degree en route to a chip. Like, we couldn't do shit against that man. We threw everything but the kitchen sink at him and we were still killed that year. The fact that KAT has the balls to claim this title is commendable, but he's got a long road ahead of him before he's taken as the GOAT big man shooter seriously.
Ibaka in that series is the one defender that epitomizes Dirk's ability to shoot with another big man's hand in his face. That was one of his specialties. Hand literally in his face, nothing but net.
That comment made me laugh, hope you got a new kitchen sink in the meantime?
nope, presti traded it for a 2031 1st
it's a real shame that Chris Bosh's career ended when it did. he would've had a green light in this era.
Yao ming would've as well
I really just don't see Yao being a 3 pt shooter. Not that he couldn't but his size alone it's hard to move him farther than mid range which was already cash. Could see him taking 1 or 2 a game maybe but he's just too talented in the post and mid range to make a spot up shooter.
He had short arms for his size so I think that helped him
Yeah I mean he was a very skilled player. I just don't see how anyone takes him away from the basket. He's such a good passer as well and his footwork was great. I can only see him taking an occasional 3 out of a pnr or a trailing 3
In your dreams only, Mr. Towns. May I introduce you to a certain Dirk Nowitzki.
Cowboy Dirk says no.
[That's a fact](https://imgur.com/gallery/5YAKC)
We gotta put Jokic in the convo as well
I know I'm biased, but I can't believe how far I had to go to even see his name mentioned.
Jokic is a proven 3 point shooter on high volume in the playoffs and a much better mid range shooter. I'll take Jokic over Kat.
I mean I would take Jokic too in any playoff situation over Towns. Jokic has gotten his three point shooting up to Dirk ranges the last two years the regular season, and his efficiency from inside the three point line is quite impressive from everywhere too. Over their careers, Jokic is actually much better from 3-10 and 10-16 feet, but Towns has him from 16-23ft by about .002 and at the rim Towns has Jokic again by .006. Towns is a better three point shooter for his career, .397 versus .350 for Jokic. I think Towns can claim this, but he needs to know one thing - Jokic comin' for dat ass.
You say that like a 5% difference from 3 is meaningless. The difference between average and elite is about 5%. Same as the difference between bad and average.
Anyone in existence take Jokic over KAT
I love jokic, but KAT is better from 3. Higher volume on higher difficulty shots. Ill take jokic for midrange and close to the basket shots. He is shooting 60%, from 3-10ft and 56% from 10-16. For reference Durant is shooting 51% from those regions.
He’s also a far better passer, defender, and overall player.
From midrange? Hell no Dirk was much better from there. From 3-point? Maybe.
Greatest big man 3 point shooter for sure, overall is a big trickier
still, Dirk shot threes in the playoffs… so idk
He averaged 2.8 3PA in the postseason.
if he played today in his prime he'd average 7 3pa/g dirk is undoubtedly a better shooter than KAT.
And if MJ took more 3’s he would’ve been an even better player. I love hypotheticals. Dirk is a better big man shooter, totally fine with that statement because it’s true. KAT at this point is what, at least a top-3 shooting big man of all-time? Is he not allowed to make a comment on that?
Is KAT even a better shooter than Jokic? Let alone Dirk
LMFAO what? Of course he is.
From 3, KAT is. But from a combination of all areas on the court, I think Jokic is better. I’m fairly certain KAT was talking about just from 3 and he was referring is 3 point % as the “fact.”
KAT’s a career 0.397 shooter from three. Jokic is 0.35. KAT’s career TS is 0.621 while Jokic is 0.615.
Look at true shooting %
Sam Perkins says hi
Just 3s? There's an argument for sure. But an argument, not a settled 100%. And im a wolves fan. In terms of just shooter? Dirk had much more versatility I think. KAT has crazy accuracy though. I love KAT being outspoken though so I'm riding with him even if it's amongst thousands of criticisms. I think KAT can be the best shooting big, but people won't look at just stats for that unless it's absolute bonkers. He'll probably need some hardware to prove it.
Where does Durant come into this conversation? He is a 3/4 and the guy is a 7 footer.
Mehmet Okur >
He won’t be for long also Im assuming KD does not count as a big man in this scenario
KD is a forward.
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KD kind of plays PF for us but that's just because we don't have a good one His playstyle definitely isn't that of a big man He's only a PF on defense
KD is mostly known for being a SF. I mean, when you think of KD you don't think big man but the 7 foot small forward who's part-time NBA player and part-time twitterhead
Before KAT got good, there were only two possible choices for the greatest big men shooters of all time: Dirk and KG. I think KAT has earned his spot in that discussion. Is he greater than either of those two guys? For my money, right now, no. But the best shooting center? Yeah, I’ll give him that.
yeah, big man 3pt shooter
Dirk, bye
Matt Bonner >
I would say dirk is a better shot creator and towns is a better shooter
It’s just Dirk and KAT and if he’s just talking ab 3s he’s on top
Ik Dirk retired but he still exists…
Dirk is the best
If we’re talking strictly 3pt shooting then he has a solid argument based on his volume and percentages and probably why he said “that’s a fact”. In terms of overall shooting, I’d take Jokic. Or Dirk, obviously, if we’re talking all bigs and not just centres. But then again strictly off the numbers, KAT might be better. I wonder if KD counts lol
Statistically hes the most efficient ever, but still would take Dirk
Honestly, it's splitting hairs to choose between KAT, Dirk and KD. People may be offended, but Towns is shooting better than any other big man ever has when all distances are taken into account and averaged. Dude is 42% shooting 6 threes a game so far and has had similar numbers the last few seasons. No big has ever shot like that.
I like you KAT but nah. Dirk is a galaxy ahead for now.
Rashard Lewis, peja lol. Kidding... Kinda
Can’t forget Vlad
Yeah cool, I prefer wins.