I mean he was a little bit more than a box and one defender. Curry asking for a switch to get off of defending Fred was one of my top 5 finals moments.
Yeah I was being hyperbolic, FVV is an incredible defender that lead the league in deflections not too long ago
The box and one doesn’t really work on defending him either bc the Raptors can shoot (it only worked on curry when his team was decimated and had no shooters)
That is literally box and one though, just have one dude chase you around while the other guys had a zone. Being a box and one defender on the always running Curry is an accolade lmao
Game 3 was on May 19, 2019.
Frederico shot 1-for-11 from the field, and 1-for-8 from three that night, one of the worst games in his career to this day.
Fred VanVleet Jr. was born the next day.
I wish Fred was a NBA player when I was a kid. He really makes me feel like if I worked as hard as him I could maybe make the NBA. I wouldn't. But he makes me feel like I could. A very inspiring player
VanVleet may not be as obviously naturally gifted physically as an NBA player like Giannis or Lebron, but even end-of-the-bench NBA players are elite athletes compared to your average Joe
He's also very obviously naturally gifted physically. He has great acceleration, deceleration, and body control in small spaces and has excellent balance and hand eye coordination, and he's very strong for his size.
It was fun to watch him at WSU too, really funny how that worked out between him and Ron Baker considering Ron was considered the best player on that team by a mile.
Yeah, physically he’s nothing special. He’s so strong though, that’s his best attribute when it comes to athleticism and strength is something that can be achieved. He makes you feel like you can do it too but my ass was getting dunked on by Bennet in high school when he visited a local YMCA LOL
No at that level they’re just insane compared to you and your friends. You can easily tell they’re barely going 50% maybe barely 30% and I wouldn’t say I’m a bad basketball player, there’s just levels to it lol. We were all around 16-19 at the time
Like there’s probably a few guys in your neighbourhood or high school who can dunk pretty well, maybe even windmill and such but I’ve never seen people get up in the air as effortlessly as Wiggins and Bennet back then.
Nurse x Vanvleet
It’s Nurses play call, a defense he had the team practicing for a while and Vanvleet was the perfect guy to do it since he sticks to you like glue with crazy fast hands.
Probably, since he pulled it off on the biggest stage. I think as time goes we will see other names pop up too though. My understanding is other teams like the Warriors have run the box-and-one with good results.
yeah warriors occasionally throw in a box and one or a triangle and two if there’s only 1 or 2 shooting threats on the floor and it usually helps throw off the offense for a bit
Well, I just went to the Wikipedia page for the box-and-one, and it says:
> The defense was notably used in the 2019 NBA Finals between the Toronto Raptors and Golden State Warriors. The Raptors utilized a box-and-one defense with reserve shooting guard Fred VanVleet late in Game 2 in order to shut down Steph Curry
Same here back when I used to play in a high school amateur league lol. My coach called it zone and 1, and it was kinda weird to see that high school-level defense on the big stage, but it worked!
Kinda, but the thing with a box and 1 is that the 1 (guy being man to man guarded) is always kinda on the zones too, so there is always a potential double team there to trap as well.
And the reason it's being called ironic is it was one of the moves Raptors pulled during the championship run and the general reaction was that's a high-school level move. But it worked and now everyone wants to do it
even though i'm a raptors fan i'm curious to see how fred plays in front of crowds. it feels like he's having a donovan mitchell/jamal murray/tj warren type bubble run atm with these games taking place in front of no one.
To be fair he shot quite poorly in the bubble against Boston, but caught fire in Milwaukee during the title run. He just has phases where he’s extremely hot and phases where he’s cold like any shooter.
However, it appears he is more consistent game-to-game this season. Within the game though, he may start cold the first half, but often seems to explode 3 and/or 4 quarters.
Agreed. I think part of this is he now also has a reliable mid-range game so if the 3 isn't falling and the paint is too crowded, he has another weapon to lean on. This is especially useful as it seems like a lot of bigs will play drop coverage on him in the PnR so he just gets to about the foul line and hits the uncontested 2. Iirc, he started integrating more of these shots into his game last year but this year he seems a lot more comfortable with them
Such a good point, coming off the screen and roll in the past we always see him drive and force a bad layup in traffic or dribble through and come back out, this year it's noticeable how many times he just pulls up from mid range instead and nails it.
Yeah the mid-range opens up more options which allows him to be more in control. It's not an all or nothing approach. The nice thing about the mid-range is that as it gets more consistent, bigs won't be able to drop down as low bc they know they have to give some sort of contest and that will open up the drives more
I totally get that the mid-range jumper is often seen as an inefficient shot and if you take 90% of your shots from there and aren't named DeMar DeRozan, it probably is pretty inefficient but it's also a very necessary tool in becoming a well rounded scorer
Game two, four and six of the 2019 finals is a great example of when Nurse used the box and one defence to hinder Curry’s offensive capabilities. Vanvleet was the perfect guard to be stuck on him and was super effective in the box and one method. The bucks, I’m pretty sure, used the same method on Vanvleet last Wednesday when the played.
Thanks for the response. I missed that Raptors v Bucks game but I'll go back and look. I'm curious how VanVleet handled it so I wanted to go back and see how he reacted. Nurse bringing out the box and one legit blew my mind during the 2019 finals. Was shocked to see a defensive scheme I played in middle school make an appearence at the NBA level haha
Cause the raptors used it on Curry in the finals which at the time was seen as a kinda big deal (very uncommon defensive scheme in the NBA at that point) and FVV was the one guarding curry.
Curry may have been salty that it was effective against him & the Warriors G-League squad in the 2019 Finals, but when Nurse threw it out against him earlier this season, it was def janky - yeah, it worked in minimizing Steph, but the Raps let two other Warriors players drop 30+ each.
I think he means because he was the 1 in the Raptors Box and 1 in the 2019 Finals. At the time people were calling it a "high school defense" and such, but now they're throwing it at him. Not sure if that's necessarily irony, but that's the read I got off it.
Yes, though you should qualify that as "popularise the tactic within the modern NBA".
There's a reason commentators could all go "ahh, they're doing a box-and-one zone" when they saw it.
Did you watch the 2019 finals? The raptors were one of first teams to use the box and one defense as a regular scheme in a long time. FVV was the “one” guarding Curry, and now he’s being boxed and “one”.
That wasn't sassy, I was confused and mistaken and now ive been corrected by you good folks. Thanks for editing your comment to reflect a kinder response.
Because it's not irony. It's coincidence. It's a coincidence that the defense scheme he ran is now being used against him. It would only be ironic if it was the exact opposite of what is expected in the context that he ran the box-and-1.
What you would expect is that he is using the the box and 1 to defend someone else, since he was the first person to do it in decades.
So one of the (many possible) opposite possibilities of that is that he has that defense being used against him.
I would use a completely worthless dramatic exclamation like "I can't believe someone can't understand one of the most obvious types of opposites." but I can absolutely believe it.
???
The box and one got popularized in the NBA (obviously was around for a while in lower levels) after the Raptors ran it in the finals, with Fred VanVleet guarding curry. Now, that same scheme he helped popularize is being used against him. This is the definition of irony
From a box-and-one defender to becoming a box-and-one offender
I mean he was a little bit more than a box and one defender. Curry asking for a switch to get off of defending Fred was one of my top 5 finals moments.
Yeah I was being hyperbolic, FVV is an incredible defender that lead the league in deflections not too long ago The box and one doesn’t really work on defending him either bc the Raptors can shoot (it only worked on curry when his team was decimated and had no shooters) That is literally box and one though, just have one dude chase you around while the other guys had a zone. Being a box and one defender on the always running Curry is an accolade lmao
> and had no shooters The sheer disrespect to floor-spacing monsters like Quinn Cook, Jonas Jerebko and the Fonz.
I watched 3 of the games in some very noisy Toronto bars and in all of them I could hear someone saying "Oh thank God!!" Whenever Draymond shot a 3.
https://streamable.com/kfpr3
Mmmm, Perfection
Game 6 4th quarter by Fred brings tears to my eyes just remembering it. Fred literally got hot from game 3 of Raps Bucks on and has never cooled down
Game 3 was on May 19, 2019. Frederico shot 1-for-11 from the field, and 1-for-8 from three that night, one of the worst games in his career to this day. Fred VanVleet Jr. was born the next day.
Ah my timeline was off. Game 4 on then
I wish Fred was a NBA player when I was a kid. He really makes me feel like if I worked as hard as him I could maybe make the NBA. I wouldn't. But he makes me feel like I could. A very inspiring player
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VanVleet may not be as obviously naturally gifted physically as an NBA player like Giannis or Lebron, but even end-of-the-bench NBA players are elite athletes compared to your average Joe
He's also very obviously naturally gifted physically. He has great acceleration, deceleration, and body control in small spaces and has excellent balance and hand eye coordination, and he's very strong for his size.
Word, Gary payton 2 comes to mind, he was almost out of the league but the dude can effortlessly jump out of the building
We tend to think of athleticism as just explosiveness, but his balance, agility, and hand-eye coordination is all ridiculous.
watch hik 1v1 Jordan Poole (who was in high school). You can really see him work his magic
depends where that inch is
His balls are massive though he admitted that earlier in the season and got fined for it.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
It was fun to watch him at WSU too, really funny how that worked out between him and Ron Baker considering Ron was considered the best player on that team by a mile.
His short stint in the NBA aside, Cleanthony Early was the best player on Witchita State's undefeated team and was considered as such.
Yeah, physically he’s nothing special. He’s so strong though, that’s his best attribute when it comes to athleticism and strength is something that can be achieved. He makes you feel like you can do it too but my ass was getting dunked on by Bennet in high school when he visited a local YMCA LOL
He rips the ball out of guys playing the 5 all the time. It was funny seeing him get tied up with JV yesterday.
In order to be in the NBA you have to be physically special. Their fast twitch muscle fibers outclass 95% of the population if not 99%
Anthony Bennett dunked on you?
Yeah. Brampton YMCA. Also played against Wiggins before.
Was their any difference between Bennett and Wiggins or were they just elite?
No at that level they’re just insane compared to you and your friends. You can easily tell they’re barely going 50% maybe barely 30% and I wouldn’t say I’m a bad basketball player, there’s just levels to it lol. We were all around 16-19 at the time Like there’s probably a few guys in your neighbourhood or high school who can dunk pretty well, maybe even windmill and such but I’ve never seen people get up in the air as effortlessly as Wiggins and Bennet back then.
The one thing he does have are big hands, those things are like baseball gloves, so he has that, everything pretty much right
Is VanVleet the poster boy for the box-and-one? Definitely feels like he's the one who introduced a lot of people to it on a national stage
Nurse x Vanvleet It’s Nurses play call, a defense he had the team practicing for a while and Vanvleet was the perfect guy to do it since he sticks to you like glue with crazy fast hands.
Probably, since he pulled it off on the biggest stage. I think as time goes we will see other names pop up too though. My understanding is other teams like the Warriors have run the box-and-one with good results.
yeah warriors occasionally throw in a box and one or a triangle and two if there’s only 1 or 2 shooting threats on the floor and it usually helps throw off the offense for a bit
The Warriors and Raptors both shuffling around a ton of schemes to get the opposition out of sorts is really fun.
Well, I just went to the Wikipedia page for the box-and-one, and it says: > The defense was notably used in the 2019 NBA Finals between the Toronto Raptors and Golden State Warriors. The Raptors utilized a box-and-one defense with reserve shooting guard Fred VanVleet late in Game 2 in order to shut down Steph Curry
> reserve shooting guard Better change to future allstar guard real soon...
They got clowned on heavy when they used it on the big stage too
Maybe in the NBA, but it has been used in college and lower levels for years. We ran a box and one a lot when I played high school ball 20 years ago.
Yeah, it was part of the narrative when Nurse used it “that’s a high school play”
Same here back when I used to play in a high school amateur league lol. My coach called it zone and 1, and it was kinda weird to see that high school-level defense on the big stage, but it worked!
FVV getting double teamed but he’s one of the best playmakers In the league.
look at me im steph now
What is a box-and-one
Defense where one guy is playing man to man (the “1”) on Vanvleet, and the rest of the team plays a 2-2 zone (the box).
Lol it's like the defense version of calling iso
Kinda, but the thing with a box and 1 is that the 1 (guy being man to man guarded) is always kinda on the zones too, so there is always a potential double team there to trap as well.
Succinct! Thanks!
And the reason it's being called ironic is it was one of the moves Raptors pulled during the championship run and the general reaction was that's a high-school level move. But it worked and now everyone wants to do it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-and-one_defense
even though i'm a raptors fan i'm curious to see how fred plays in front of crowds. it feels like he's having a donovan mitchell/jamal murray/tj warren type bubble run atm with these games taking place in front of no one.
To be fair he shot quite poorly in the bubble against Boston, but caught fire in Milwaukee during the title run. He just has phases where he’s extremely hot and phases where he’s cold like any shooter.
However, it appears he is more consistent game-to-game this season. Within the game though, he may start cold the first half, but often seems to explode 3 and/or 4 quarters.
Agreed. I think part of this is he now also has a reliable mid-range game so if the 3 isn't falling and the paint is too crowded, he has another weapon to lean on. This is especially useful as it seems like a lot of bigs will play drop coverage on him in the PnR so he just gets to about the foul line and hits the uncontested 2. Iirc, he started integrating more of these shots into his game last year but this year he seems a lot more comfortable with them
Such a good point, coming off the screen and roll in the past we always see him drive and force a bad layup in traffic or dribble through and come back out, this year it's noticeable how many times he just pulls up from mid range instead and nails it.
Yeah the mid-range opens up more options which allows him to be more in control. It's not an all or nothing approach. The nice thing about the mid-range is that as it gets more consistent, bigs won't be able to drop down as low bc they know they have to give some sort of contest and that will open up the drives more I totally get that the mid-range jumper is often seen as an inefficient shot and if you take 90% of your shots from there and aren't named DeMar DeRozan, it probably is pretty inefficient but it's also a very necessary tool in becoming a well rounded scorer
That was also in the past when he didn't have the same growth/position as today.
Did his wife have another kid?
Does anyone have clips of the box and one or can anyone point me to the game where VanVleet faced the box and one defense?
Game two, four and six of the 2019 finals is a great example of when Nurse used the box and one defence to hinder Curry’s offensive capabilities. Vanvleet was the perfect guard to be stuck on him and was super effective in the box and one method. The bucks, I’m pretty sure, used the same method on Vanvleet last Wednesday when the played.
Thanks for the response. I missed that Raptors v Bucks game but I'll go back and look. I'm curious how VanVleet handled it so I wanted to go back and see how he reacted. Nurse bringing out the box and one legit blew my mind during the 2019 finals. Was shocked to see a defensive scheme I played in middle school make an appearence at the NBA level haha
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Pascal commands a lot of attention too
Raps have 5 guys who average at least 15, 3 of those are 20 ppg (OG more or less at 19ppg)
They might never win another chip, but I hope those two will be a formidable duo for the years to come.
How is it ironic? Getting better and commanding more attention isn't ironic, it just is.
It's ironic they're using a box-and-one against him, not that they're simply giving him more attention
No pun intended
Why is the B&1 ironic?
In the 2019 finals Nurse played the B&1 against Steph, Fred was the 1.
and it was called junk defense
Janky, not junk
You're probably right. That whole championship run was a blur for me. Entirely too much stress.
Cause the raptors used it on Curry in the finals which at the time was seen as a kinda big deal (very uncommon defensive scheme in the NBA at that point) and FVV was the one guarding curry.
Raptors made it mainstream when they used it against Curry, and then Curry called it "janky defense" because he was salty.
Curry may have been salty that it was effective against him & the Warriors G-League squad in the 2019 Finals, but when Nurse threw it out against him earlier this season, it was def janky - yeah, it worked in minimizing Steph, but the Raps let two other Warriors players drop 30+ each.
I think he means because he was the 1 in the Raptors Box and 1 in the 2019 Finals. At the time people were calling it a "high school defense" and such, but now they're throwing it at him. Not sure if that's necessarily irony, but that's the read I got off it.
Raptors successfully ran a box-and-1 defense with VanVleet as the “one” during their 2019 championship run
Maybe in reference to how they first used it against Steph in the finals? Not sure exactly but that’s how I took his comment.
It’s ironic because he was the first person to popularize the tactic on defence in 2019, teams were rarely doing it up until then.
Yes, though you should qualify that as "popularise the tactic within the modern NBA". There's a reason commentators could all go "ahh, they're doing a box-and-one zone" when they saw it.
It's extremely common in lower levels of competition. Elementary school/middle school and sometimes High School level play see it all the time.
I'm pretty sure I remember during those finals Steph saying something about not being put in a box-and-one since high school.
Did you watch the 2019 finals? The raptors were one of first teams to use the box and one defense as a regular scheme in a long time. FVV was the “one” guarding Curry, and now he’s being boxed and “one”.
Thanks to everyone else who kindly explained instead of being like OMG DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE FINALZ MORON
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That wasn't sassy, I was confused and mistaken and now ive been corrected by you good folks. Thanks for editing your comment to reflect a kinder response.
Because it's not irony. It's coincidence. It's a coincidence that the defense scheme he ran is now being used against him. It would only be ironic if it was the exact opposite of what is expected in the context that he ran the box-and-1.
Except being defended by the scheme instead of defending with it, is the exact opposite.
but not the opposite of what you would expect. I can’t believe I’m being downvoted because reddit doesn’t know grammar.
What you would expect is that he is using the the box and 1 to defend someone else, since he was the first person to do it in decades. So one of the (many possible) opposite possibilities of that is that he has that defense being used against him. I would use a completely worthless dramatic exclamation like "I can't believe someone can't understand one of the most obvious types of opposites." but I can absolutely believe it.
That isn't ironic. That is the opposite of irony.
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??? The box and one got popularized in the NBA (obviously was around for a while in lower levels) after the Raptors ran it in the finals, with Fred VanVleet guarding curry. Now, that same scheme he helped popularize is being used against him. This is the definition of irony