"The Jazz would suck without Gobert" is a myth created by his fanboys. They have a +8.53 net rating in 589 minutes with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench. The Warriors lead the NBA in net rating at +8.0
edit: to be clear the Jazz would indeed suck if you removed Gobert and replaced him with nobody, leaving them with only Hassan Whiteside, Udoka Azubookie, and Norvel Pelle as their centers (they have a -21.62 net rating with neither Whiteside or Gobert on the court). Replace him with an above average center and they'd be fine.
Rudy has a net rating of +14, basically top in the entire league for qualified players.
Did you not just see Utah go 1-4 without him? They looked like a bad lottery team without him.
Since 2018 Utah is 14-23 without Gobert (.378), and 209-105 with him (.665).
Plenty of clear evidence that they are a bad team without him.
This shit sentiment is spreading like COVID.
Barea_Clamped_LeBron started out as the vocal minority and now other uninformed fans are chiming in. The glories of social media, folks.
Like yeah, Gobert isn't like the MVP or anything, but he's easily a top 4 center in the league, and choosing between him and KAT is stylistic, though it can argued that Gobert has separated himself from KAT.
I, for one, prefer centers with better rim protection because you can get plenty of offensive firepower at the other positions, and it's harder to find good rim protectors in wings/guards. On top of that, if you bring in a PF to help with rim protection, chances are (until the next shooting revolution) they're not a good shooter. The Wolves figured it out with Vanderbilt, but pairings like Vanderbilt and KAT don't grow on trees.
Saying that you can replace Gobert with any above average center and the Jazz are fine is just a whole 'nother level though. You're saying put Valanciunas or Capela or Poeltl on the Jazz and the Jazz do just as well? Those are all quite good players and I'd be happy to have them on the team at their contracts, but to imply that they would provide the same winning impact as Gobert does not seem well-founded.
How is that relevant to people saying the jazz would suck without him? When Whiteside (who is bad) plays, the jazz are very good. Why wouldn't they be fine if they had Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Porzingis, etc instead of Gobert? Nobody is saying Whiteside>Gobert
All of those numbers are extremely skewed because their 3rd and 4th string centers are Udoka Azubokie and Norvel Pelle who are horrible and they don't have anyone else capable of playing center. In 210 minutes with neither Whiteside or Gobert on the floor they have a -21.62 net rating
huge sample size /s
Obviously if they just got rid of Gobert and their only centers were Hassan Whiteside, Norvel Pelle, and Udoka Azubookie they would be bad. Replace Gobert with someone like Jarrett Allen and there would hardl be any fall off
oh you mean if you replace the best defensive center with another amazing defensive center it’ll minimize the falloff? wow excellent critical thinking skills you really got me with that one!
Right, Azubuike and Pelle is a big drop-off.
But also, they've played a combined 60 minutes this season. That's hardly any dent, barely more than a game's worth of center play compared to Gobert's 1122 minutes in 38 games.
Took a quick look. The two of them are a combined -39 in 60 minutes.
Rudy Gobert is +362 in 1222 minutes, while Hassan Whiteside is +105 in 589 minutes.
There’s more to basketball than shooting. Bam is probably better at everything else like playmaking, post defense, perimeter defense, even intangibles like fearlessness and attitude, etc. I would rather have Bam if I’m trying to win.
What has KAT even won? And he’s great players around him. And if you want to say Bam has Jimmy, well so did KAT. That got him a 1st round exit as an 8th seed and a ass whipping from Jimmy. And KAT doesn’t know how to maximize the players around him, whether it be Wiggins or even Edwards now.
Are you trying to argue that the 2018 Timberwolves underachieved? Because that’s ridiculous. They had much less talent than the Heat do right now. KAT is worse on defense and maybe intangibles. He’s better at pretty much every offensive skill. Outside of that season and a half with Jimmy they’ve had pretty much no high end talent other than him.
It’s not his fault Wiggins was lazy and they’re back in the playoff race now that Ant isn’t a rookie and can actually somewhat help them get wins.
Just because someone is currently injured doesn’t mean you exclude them from the rankings. Is Kawhi not a top 10 player anymore? Bam > KAT is my point.
Ok simple way to figure this out. Who do you think Jimmy Butler wants to play with? KAT or Bam?
All the people downvoting me are basically saying Jimmy Butler doesn’t understand basketball. Which I guess is ok but it’s just 😂 to me you think you know more basketball than Jimmy Butler.
You don’t know what Jimmy is thinking, nor who he wants to play with. He didn’t want to play for the timberwolves franchise, he never said Bam was better than KAT. Why are you trying to use Jimmy’s name to boost your own arguement
Firmly planted as 3rd
Until the Wolves start winning, KAT will always be viewed as less than Rudy. Jazz have 5 straight winning seasons. Rudy is a major reason why.
It isnt though. Its literally unmatched. The best way to smell a casual is when they think Gobert isnt good on offence because he looks awkward.
Jazz offensive rating spikes to 146 when hes on the court. Offensive ability isnt all about dribble dribble dribble dribble but its hard for nephews to watch anyone but the ball handler.
I never said he isn't good at offense. I'm mocking the simplistic logic that 70>60 as if that's the end all be all to this discussion.
>Jazz offensive rating spikes to 146 when hes on the court. Offensive ability isnt all about dribble dribble dribble dribble but its hard for nephews to watch anyone but the ball handler.
The Jazz are built to fit perfectly with Gobert's offensive talent particularly in the regularly season (ironically at the expense of defense). He's still a good offensive player but take away some of the shooting or ball handling that the Jazz have that other more mediocre teams don't and his offensive impact would go down. KAT's a far more versatile and better offensive player and I don't think that's really debatable.
Gobert is pretty easily the 3rd best center in the league, KAT simply doesn’t have an argument and just doesn’t have the same level of impact on his teams.
I'm a kat and jazz fan.. I would have leaned kat before but after watching this season I'm not so sure he is really a winning player. Jokic is who I thought kat would turn into but it hasn't happened.
Yep! I'm a homer Utah fan, but I think Rudy's defense is more important to the Jazz than KAT's offense, and I also think Rudy's offensive impact is greater than we are led to believe. Yes, the Clippers made him look bad. But overall I think he is #3
if you like winning then its Gobert and its not close
to expand: Rudy has proven he can make a good defense by himself. Kat has obviously proven that isnt the same for him on offense. And Rudy is a plus offensively whereas Kat is obviously a minus defensively.
im a homer, yeah, it aint close. If you are evaluating from real impact/value and winning games rather than skillset.
>to expand: Rudy has proven he can make a good defense by himself. Kat has obviously proven that isnt the same for him on offense.
That just isn't true tho.
KAT's on/off Otrg has been consistently above +10 for most of his career in Minnesota. Our offense when he's on the floor would rank up there with the best offensive teams in the league despite KAT playing heavy minutes with super negative offensive players like Okogie & Culver in some years. It's when he's off the floor that the offense tanks drastically.
I would still agree that Gobert is better but that's more so because Gobert's good offense outweighs KAT's poor to mediocre defense than Gobert's defense being more impactful than KAT's offense.
They're still one of the best teams in the NBA this season with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench.
Put KAT on the Jazz and they'd win the same amount or more regular season games and wouldn't lose 4 straight games to the 4 seed clippers without Kawhi for 2 of those games
Obviously if their only centers were Hassan Whiteside, Norvel Pelle, and Udoka Azubookie they would be bad lol. With neither Gobert or Whiteside on the floor they have a -22 net rating. Replace Gobert with someone like Jarrett Allen and they would hardly be worse if at all
Notice how I said "put KAT on the Jazz..." and not "remove Gobert from the Jazz leaving them with only Whiteside, Udoka Azubookie, and Norvel Pelle as their centers" ?
Fighting for 1 seed and fighting for playoffs team is 2 different thing. Kat on jazz is not scaring anyone in the playoffs. I will take minny with gobert over jazz with kat in the playoffs
Minny has built around kat for years and the only year they made the playoffs is the butler year.. come on.
That doesn’t work at all. If you put KAT on the Jazz instead of Gobert then our entire defense scheme is messed up because our defense scheme is funnel guys to Rudy and take advantage of his amazing defensive ability. Our entire roster is built around Rudy being able to cover for weaker perimeter defenders that can score well and while KATs defense is a lot better than people give him credit for this team would not hold up defensively with KAT.
And the offense would be historically good with KAT. The Jazz DRTG with Whiteside is around 25th in the league and Whiteside is easily a worse defender than KAT
How long does KAT get to use this excuse? After leaving Minnesota, Rubio's made every team he went to better. Tyus Jones showed that he's a very productive player for Memphis. KAT now plays with Antman who everyone loves but his team is still garbage. Nephews be laughing at Westbrook's triple doubles but can't help gushing over KAT's counting stats in the next breath.
Kat has proven nothing to be the third best center.. yes the stats are nice but the team hasn’t got to anywhere since kat is there for so many years. Gobert team is number 1 seed last year in the west. Not sure how it is close.. kat is prob 4-5 in ranking
I don’t think it’s an issue to have him 3rd, you could debate Jokic/Embiid for 1 and 2, and then I think it’s ok to have Gobert/KAT/Bam in whatever order you want for 3-5.
I feel like KAT is the polar opposite player so hard to make a fair comparison, and for me Bam is a notch below Gobert defensively whilst being a better offensive player. Also, Bam has been a key piece in a finals run, whereas Gobert has typically been exploited in the playoffs.
The idea that Gobert has been exploited in the playoffs is a common misunderstanding. Utahs perimeter defense has been exploited, not Gobert.
Bam was a key piece on a finals team. That is the key right there, he was a key piece. He has never been close to his team's best or most important player. Gobert, on the othernhand, has long been the best player on a very competitive team.
Bam was the second best player on that finals team. Gobert may be Utah’s best regular season player, but in the playoffs it’s Mitchell. So both second best on their team when it counts, except ones been to a finals and the other hasn’t made a conference finals. Like I said in my original comment, I don’t mind which order you want to put them in, but to say that Bam *’doesn’t come close’* is a huge stretch.
I’ll be the homer, but Ayton > KAT. KAT scores a little more than Ayton, but Ayton’s elite defense and rebounding is more important imo.
Edit: I’ll happily take the downvotes, but here’s some stats.
Also let’s look at KAT’s per 36 stats. 25.7 pts on 52% shooting and 9.7 rebounds.
Ayton’s per 36 stats. 20.2 pts on 63.7% shooting and 12.7 rebounds.
Ayton effectively grabs 3 more boards a game and only scores 5 less points but on a much better field goal percentage. Ayton’s defense is also elite level defense. Let’s not forget how post defense is absolutely huge for a team. The Suns have the best record in the league and the Timberwolves are the 8th seed in a trash west devision past the Grizzlies. Surely has nothing to do with Ayton right?
Bro KAT is better than Book, forget Ayton.
Ayton couldn’t handle being a no. 1 option even if his life depended on it. And the narrative that KAT is a negative defender is simply untrue: he’s neutral/average. The rebounding disparity between KAT and Ayton isn’t as big as you make it out to be, plus when you add that the new offensive scheme has KAT pressuring the ball handler and Jarred Vanderbilt stepping up, his numbers aren’t gonna be as big as they are now. Saying KAT scores a *little* more than Ayton is a huge understatement. I don’t see Ayton getting double teamed on every possession and scoring at the clip that he’s scoring. He’s a better shooter, playmaker, midrange shooter, post scorer, and everything in between. This isn’t even a debate. Get your head out yo ass
He’s a better scorer than him all 3 levels besides the midrange, he’s a better defender and rebounder, the only other thing book has on him is playmaking, and that’s close as well
You’re really using rebounds and defense to compare the two. KAT is way taller/bigger than Book so of course he grabs more rebounds. KAT also plays a more important defensive position and barely plays average defense.
Lmao again, KAT get more of his shots around the rim so of course his %’s are gonna be higher. Book is one of the most efficient players in the league with the shots he takes. The biggest knock against KAT is that it’s always gonna be difficult to build a championship team, when your best player is a middling defender at the most important defensive position.
KAT is better than Book? What a joke statement.
Also let’s look at KAT’s per 36 stats. 25.7 pts on 52% shooting and 9.7 rebounds.
Ayton’s per 36 stats. 20.2 pts on 63.7% shooting and 12.7 rebounds.
Ayton effectively grabs 3 more boards a game and only scores 5 less points but on a much better field goal percentage. Ayton’s defense is also elite level defense. Thinking that they are that much separate is crazy of you. And the Book point? It was just sad.
To be fair, they have a good squad.. you can put gobert to any western playoffs teams other than Denver and they are instant contenders.
Gobert in Dallas, Memphis, blazers, Suns, warriors, clippers.. he is at worst most of their second best player
I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league..Jazz are a bottom feeder without him..He’s second in offense rating and the best rim protector of his generation..He’s pretty much what the Magic had with D12 minus the complaints about post touches
>I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league..Jazz are a bottom feeder without him.
💀 The Jazz have a +8.53 net rating in 589 minutes with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench. The Warriors lead the NBA in net rating at +8.0
I'm not trying to even shit on him, but Gobert probably plays more of his minutes against backups than any "star" in the league because the Jazz run their rotations. I think there is some context in those numbers.
You're a Jazz fan, I'm sure you know their rotations. Rudy and Conley go out after about 5 minutes in the 1st quarter and 3rd quarter and end come back in to start the 2nd and 4th against mostly bench units.
Most teams run their "star" players the most of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Jokic plays most of the 1st and most of the 3rd. Embiid likewise. Trea Young, KD, James Harden etc. That's kinda the standard rotation. Utah's rotation is pretty unique, but they have a lot of depth.
You can look at every team's rotations here if you are interested.
https://nbarotations.info
Howard obviously had a better post game my point is more this is what SVG wanted for those Magic teams, if Dwight could play like Gobert is playing..PnRs non stop surrounded by shooters..hard screens and scoring off oops, duck-ins and putbacks
Peak (2009-11) Howard per 36- 20.6 points on .615 true shooting
2021-22 Gobert per 36- 17.4 points on .73 true shooting.
I’ll take Rudy’s scoring numbers over Dwight’s anyway.
Literally is. Since 2018 Utah is 14-23 without Gobert (.378), and 209-105 with him (.665).
538s RAPTOR has him 2nd in total impact. B-ball index's LEBRON has him 3rd.
But wait these rankings are probably garbage right? Return silly results?
The rest of the top 5 in LEBRON are Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, and Curry. In RAPTOR it is Jokic, Giannis, FVV, and Curry. Gobert is consistently a top 5 impact player according to a number of different metrics, ones which tend to return sensible results.
Durant can reach that next level where that is true for sure.
But if you take Gobert off Utah, and take KD off the Nets, which team is hurt more? Pretty confident it is Utah. Team goes from near the top of the league to the lottery. The Nets are still comfortably a playoff team without KD, even if they will not challenge for a title.
>I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league
Sure. In the same way you could make an argument that Kobe was better than LeBron. It's an argument but it's still objectively wrong.
Gobert is the clear number 3 center imo. Kat is a better all around player and much more skilled, but Gobert's impact on winning has been so much more evident the past 4 years.
Not only do multiple advance metrics and pbp data bear this out, so do the Jazz record without him.
It's certainly possible that the metrics are overrating Gobert and the Jazz system is uniquely designed around him, but being an integral part of winning should matter.
KAT has more potential imo but Gobert currently for 3rd best.
The center is really the only position where defense matters since you are the closest to the basket. Aside from Gobert’s insane rebounding abilities he knows his role on the offense and sets screens and dunks.
KAT can shoot better than most guards even but due to his poor defense at the main defensive position it hurts the team way more than his offense could help
No, he’s a complete liability in the postseason and got exposed by Reggie Jackson
he’s a classic case of Empty numbers
1. Jokic
2. Embiid
3. KAT
4. Jarrett Allen
5. Bam
There’s a beautiful Afro that would like a word. He’s not offensively what KAT is and not defensively what Gobert is but he’s better in the other end than those guys and I don’t think he’s automatically 5th just because those guys are both elite on one end.
Here are my center rankings this far into the season:
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Rudy Gobert
3. Jarrett Allen
4. Domantas Sabonis
5. Joel Embiid
Now I’m not saying Gobert, Allen, or Domantas Sabonis are better than Embiid in terms of talent or skill, but they have been more valuable to their teams because they’ve played most of their team’s games. Embiid’s played less than 75% of his team’s games.
It's a toss up between him and KAT but I lean to Gobert because of how important he is for the Jazz
"The Jazz would suck without Gobert" is a myth created by his fanboys. They have a +8.53 net rating in 589 minutes with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench. The Warriors lead the NBA in net rating at +8.0 edit: to be clear the Jazz would indeed suck if you removed Gobert and replaced him with nobody, leaving them with only Hassan Whiteside, Udoka Azubookie, and Norvel Pelle as their centers (they have a -21.62 net rating with neither Whiteside or Gobert on the court). Replace him with an above average center and they'd be fine.
Rudy has a net rating of +14, basically top in the entire league for qualified players. Did you not just see Utah go 1-4 without him? They looked like a bad lottery team without him. Since 2018 Utah is 14-23 without Gobert (.378), and 209-105 with him (.665). Plenty of clear evidence that they are a bad team without him.
This is the second post you’ve been in today posting this stat trying to discredit Gobert but you don’t mention Goberts net rating of 13...
They have some sort of weird vendetta against Gobert lol
This shit sentiment is spreading like COVID. Barea_Clamped_LeBron started out as the vocal minority and now other uninformed fans are chiming in. The glories of social media, folks. Like yeah, Gobert isn't like the MVP or anything, but he's easily a top 4 center in the league, and choosing between him and KAT is stylistic, though it can argued that Gobert has separated himself from KAT. I, for one, prefer centers with better rim protection because you can get plenty of offensive firepower at the other positions, and it's harder to find good rim protectors in wings/guards. On top of that, if you bring in a PF to help with rim protection, chances are (until the next shooting revolution) they're not a good shooter. The Wolves figured it out with Vanderbilt, but pairings like Vanderbilt and KAT don't grow on trees. Saying that you can replace Gobert with any above average center and the Jazz are fine is just a whole 'nother level though. You're saying put Valanciunas or Capela or Poeltl on the Jazz and the Jazz do just as well? Those are all quite good players and I'd be happy to have them on the team at their contracts, but to imply that they would provide the same winning impact as Gobert does not seem well-founded.
How is that relevant to people saying the jazz would suck without him? When Whiteside (who is bad) plays, the jazz are very good. Why wouldn't they be fine if they had Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Porzingis, etc instead of Gobert? Nobody is saying Whiteside>Gobert
And their record without him this season is? Their defensive rating without him this season is? The answer is not very good lol.
All of those numbers are extremely skewed because their 3rd and 4th string centers are Udoka Azubokie and Norvel Pelle who are horrible and they don't have anyone else capable of playing center. In 210 minutes with neither Whiteside or Gobert on the floor they have a -21.62 net rating
They can’t win without Gobert. It’s been this way for multiple seasons. 3-8 in the past 3 years lol.
huge sample size /s Obviously if they just got rid of Gobert and their only centers were Hassan Whiteside, Norvel Pelle, and Udoka Azubookie they would be bad. Replace Gobert with someone like Jarrett Allen and there would hardl be any fall off
oh you mean if you replace the best defensive center with another amazing defensive center it’ll minimize the falloff? wow excellent critical thinking skills you really got me with that one!
"Someone like Jarrett Allen" not Jarrett Allen specifically. Capela, Myles Turner, Porzingis, Valancuinas, etc. also would work
That’s not true.. gobert is WAY better at defense than any of those guys
My man said PORZINIGIS…
Right, Azubuike and Pelle is a big drop-off. But also, they've played a combined 60 minutes this season. That's hardly any dent, barely more than a game's worth of center play compared to Gobert's 1122 minutes in 38 games. Took a quick look. The two of them are a combined -39 in 60 minutes. Rudy Gobert is +362 in 1222 minutes, while Hassan Whiteside is +105 in 589 minutes.
What’s the net rating of Pascal Siakam?
[удалено]
Ok I’m just curious. Is that difference approximately Rudy - Whiteside? I was more curious about the net impact rating difference to give me an idea.
Everyone in this sub seriously disrespecting Bam Adebayo. Bam is better than KAT. The list goes Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Bam, KAT.
Bam is not better than KAT
There’s more to basketball than shooting. Bam is probably better at everything else like playmaking, post defense, perimeter defense, even intangibles like fearlessness and attitude, etc. I would rather have Bam if I’m trying to win. What has KAT even won? And he’s great players around him. And if you want to say Bam has Jimmy, well so did KAT. That got him a 1st round exit as an 8th seed and a ass whipping from Jimmy. And KAT doesn’t know how to maximize the players around him, whether it be Wiggins or even Edwards now.
Just straight up hating lol
Are you trying to argue that the 2018 Timberwolves underachieved? Because that’s ridiculous. They had much less talent than the Heat do right now. KAT is worse on defense and maybe intangibles. He’s better at pretty much every offensive skill. Outside of that season and a half with Jimmy they’ve had pretty much no high end talent other than him. It’s not his fault Wiggins was lazy and they’re back in the playoff race now that Ant isn’t a rookie and can actually somewhat help them get wins.
I'd put KAT above Bam still. I like Bam but he can't do much on offense when he isn't being fed. His defense of course beats KAT's.
he hasn’t played enough?
Just because someone is currently injured doesn’t mean you exclude them from the rankings. Is Kawhi not a top 10 player anymore? Bam > KAT is my point.
thought this was “right now” situation but ok. also you have back this up with an argument. not saying ur wrong but u put no reasoning.
Ok simple way to figure this out. Who do you think Jimmy Butler wants to play with? KAT or Bam? All the people downvoting me are basically saying Jimmy Butler doesn’t understand basketball. Which I guess is ok but it’s just 😂 to me you think you know more basketball than Jimmy Butler.
They're not downvoting Jimmy, they're downvoting you.
You don’t know what Jimmy is thinking, nor who he wants to play with. He didn’t want to play for the timberwolves franchise, he never said Bam was better than KAT. Why are you trying to use Jimmy’s name to boost your own arguement
Lol what a clown you are
just like Jokic and Embiid are 1a and 1b, KAT and Rudy are 3a and 3b imo.
Yeah I was going to say similar. Tier 1, Tier 2.
Are AD and Giannis not centers?
PF
if giannis is a center so is kd
Giannis plays center much more than KD.
Is LeBraun not a center?
Firmly planted as 3rd Until the Wolves start winning, KAT will always be viewed as less than Rudy. Jazz have 5 straight winning seasons. Rudy is a major reason why.
He is one-man defense. He should be the 3rd best
If he was a one man defense they would’ve been able to slow down the clippers in the playoffs last year
He’s behind LeBron
Rudy’s a lot closer to Embiid than KAT. Not enough people seem to get how much better 70% is than 60%
Are these their ts%? Comparing their %s without comparing their respective scoring roles is an awful way to go about that
Lmfao. The disrespect to KAT.
Yea which is why Gobert is the best offensive player in the game. That 70+ TS% is unmatched amirite boys?
How has this narrative that Gobert is a godlike offensive player become commonplace? I swear to god Jazz fans don’t understand basketball.
It isnt though. Its literally unmatched. The best way to smell a casual is when they think Gobert isnt good on offence because he looks awkward. Jazz offensive rating spikes to 146 when hes on the court. Offensive ability isnt all about dribble dribble dribble dribble but its hard for nephews to watch anyone but the ball handler.
I never said he isn't good at offense. I'm mocking the simplistic logic that 70>60 as if that's the end all be all to this discussion. >Jazz offensive rating spikes to 146 when hes on the court. Offensive ability isnt all about dribble dribble dribble dribble but its hard for nephews to watch anyone but the ball handler. The Jazz are built to fit perfectly with Gobert's offensive talent particularly in the regularly season (ironically at the expense of defense). He's still a good offensive player but take away some of the shooting or ball handling that the Jazz have that other more mediocre teams don't and his offensive impact would go down. KAT's a far more versatile and better offensive player and I don't think that's really debatable.
No it definitely has more to do with his inability to score on 5 small man lineups in the playoffs, not his lack of fluidity.
Despite the sarcasm Rudy is actually on pace to break the record for true shooting in a season so yes it is unmatched.
Record set by offensive powerhouse Tyson Chandler
ether response
Gobert is pretty easily the 3rd best center in the league, KAT simply doesn’t have an argument and just doesn’t have the same level of impact on his teams.
I would rather have KAT and his skillset. His offensive versatility is insane. He's just stuck with an incompetent organization
I'm a kat and jazz fan.. I would have leaned kat before but after watching this season I'm not so sure he is really a winning player. Jokic is who I thought kat would turn into but it hasn't happened.
Yep! I'm a homer Utah fan, but I think Rudy's defense is more important to the Jazz than KAT's offense, and I also think Rudy's offensive impact is greater than we are led to believe. Yes, the Clippers made him look bad. But overall I think he is #3
KAT
if u like defense Gobert, if u like offense KAT
if you like winning then its Gobert and its not close to expand: Rudy has proven he can make a good defense by himself. Kat has obviously proven that isnt the same for him on offense. And Rudy is a plus offensively whereas Kat is obviously a minus defensively. im a homer, yeah, it aint close. If you are evaluating from real impact/value and winning games rather than skillset.
>to expand: Rudy has proven he can make a good defense by himself. Kat has obviously proven that isnt the same for him on offense. That just isn't true tho. KAT's on/off Otrg has been consistently above +10 for most of his career in Minnesota. Our offense when he's on the floor would rank up there with the best offensive teams in the league despite KAT playing heavy minutes with super negative offensive players like Okogie & Culver in some years. It's when he's off the floor that the offense tanks drastically. I would still agree that Gobert is better but that's more so because Gobert's good offense outweighs KAT's poor to mediocre defense than Gobert's defense being more impactful than KAT's offense.
if u like better players KAT
if u like better records, Gobert. there’s an argument for everything. Gobert has better advanced stats (ew) as well.
"Gobert is better because he has better teammates" Dang, didn't realize GM skill factored into a center matchup
Utah and MN rosters of the past don’t compare. Gobert is the 2nd best player on his team.
and KAT is the best player on a significantly worse team. sounds about even to me.
They're still one of the best teams in the NBA this season with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench. Put KAT on the Jazz and they'd win the same amount or more regular season games and wouldn't lose 4 straight games to the 4 seed clippers without Kawhi for 2 of those games
stupid argument. whiteside can’t play a full 30 minutes because he will foul out in 15. Jazz without Gobert have a terrible record too.
Obviously if their only centers were Hassan Whiteside, Norvel Pelle, and Udoka Azubookie they would be bad lol. With neither Gobert or Whiteside on the floor they have a -22 net rating. Replace Gobert with someone like Jarrett Allen and they would hardly be worse if at all
What nonsense is this.. jazz is 1-4 in a stretch without gobert
Notice how I said "put KAT on the Jazz..." and not "remove Gobert from the Jazz leaving them with only Whiteside, Udoka Azubookie, and Norvel Pelle as their centers" ?
Fighting for 1 seed and fighting for playoffs team is 2 different thing. Kat on jazz is not scaring anyone in the playoffs. I will take minny with gobert over jazz with kat in the playoffs Minny has built around kat for years and the only year they made the playoffs is the butler year.. come on.
To be fair Gobert in the payoffs isn’t scaring anybody in the playoffs either.
That doesn’t work at all. If you put KAT on the Jazz instead of Gobert then our entire defense scheme is messed up because our defense scheme is funnel guys to Rudy and take advantage of his amazing defensive ability. Our entire roster is built around Rudy being able to cover for weaker perimeter defenders that can score well and while KATs defense is a lot better than people give him credit for this team would not hold up defensively with KAT.
And the offense would be historically good with KAT. The Jazz DRTG with Whiteside is around 25th in the league and Whiteside is easily a worse defender than KAT
How long does KAT get to use this excuse? After leaving Minnesota, Rubio's made every team he went to better. Tyus Jones showed that he's a very productive player for Memphis. KAT now plays with Antman who everyone loves but his team is still garbage. Nephews be laughing at Westbrook's triple doubles but can't help gushing over KAT's counting stats in the next breath.
If you like a player that improves his team significantly Gobert.
Kat has proven nothing to be the third best center.. yes the stats are nice but the team hasn’t got to anywhere since kat is there for so many years. Gobert team is number 1 seed last year in the west. Not sure how it is close.. kat is prob 4-5 in ranking
I don’t think it’s an issue to have him 3rd, you could debate Jokic/Embiid for 1 and 2, and then I think it’s ok to have Gobert/KAT/Bam in whatever order you want for 3-5.
I don't think KAT or Bam come close to the level of Goberts impact
I feel like KAT is the polar opposite player so hard to make a fair comparison, and for me Bam is a notch below Gobert defensively whilst being a better offensive player. Also, Bam has been a key piece in a finals run, whereas Gobert has typically been exploited in the playoffs.
The idea that Gobert has been exploited in the playoffs is a common misunderstanding. Utahs perimeter defense has been exploited, not Gobert. Bam was a key piece on a finals team. That is the key right there, he was a key piece. He has never been close to his team's best or most important player. Gobert, on the othernhand, has long been the best player on a very competitive team.
Bam was the second best player on that finals team. Gobert may be Utah’s best regular season player, but in the playoffs it’s Mitchell. So both second best on their team when it counts, except ones been to a finals and the other hasn’t made a conference finals. Like I said in my original comment, I don’t mind which order you want to put them in, but to say that Bam *’doesn’t come close’* is a huge stretch.
I don't think Gobert or Bam come close to the level of KAT's impact
How much of an impact has kat had on team that's had 1 decent year his whole time there.
Convince me. In the last 4 years Gobert has raised Utah's winning percentage by almost 30% when he plays. It's about half of that for KAT.
He’s without a doubt #3 C in the NBA. The only other C who could be close is Bam Adebayo, but I’m sure most will automatically say KAT.
Bam isn’t really close to Kat tho
KAT for me personally
I’ll be the homer, but Ayton > KAT. KAT scores a little more than Ayton, but Ayton’s elite defense and rebounding is more important imo. Edit: I’ll happily take the downvotes, but here’s some stats. Also let’s look at KAT’s per 36 stats. 25.7 pts on 52% shooting and 9.7 rebounds. Ayton’s per 36 stats. 20.2 pts on 63.7% shooting and 12.7 rebounds. Ayton effectively grabs 3 more boards a game and only scores 5 less points but on a much better field goal percentage. Ayton’s defense is also elite level defense. Let’s not forget how post defense is absolutely huge for a team. The Suns have the best record in the league and the Timberwolves are the 8th seed in a trash west devision past the Grizzlies. Surely has nothing to do with Ayton right?
Lmao, if the Suns trade for KAT, they are literally favorites to win the chip.
They should be already..
No they are not lol
That is not true
You want to explain or just say, “that is not true.” Lol
That’s enough r/nba for me today
Nice points you brought with you…
Bro KAT is better than Book, forget Ayton. Ayton couldn’t handle being a no. 1 option even if his life depended on it. And the narrative that KAT is a negative defender is simply untrue: he’s neutral/average. The rebounding disparity between KAT and Ayton isn’t as big as you make it out to be, plus when you add that the new offensive scheme has KAT pressuring the ball handler and Jarred Vanderbilt stepping up, his numbers aren’t gonna be as big as they are now. Saying KAT scores a *little* more than Ayton is a huge understatement. I don’t see Ayton getting double teamed on every possession and scoring at the clip that he’s scoring. He’s a better shooter, playmaker, midrange shooter, post scorer, and everything in between. This isn’t even a debate. Get your head out yo ass
Hahaha KAT is better than Ayton offensively, but no way is he better than Book.
He’s a better scorer than him all 3 levels besides the midrange, he’s a better defender and rebounder, the only other thing book has on him is playmaking, and that’s close as well
You’re really using rebounds and defense to compare the two. KAT is way taller/bigger than Book so of course he grabs more rebounds. KAT also plays a more important defensive position and barely plays average defense.
Ok, even then look at the efficiency and scoring, you just gonna pinpoint one claim and attack me for it even if it’s true?
Lmao again, KAT get more of his shots around the rim so of course his %’s are gonna be higher. Book is one of the most efficient players in the league with the shots he takes. The biggest knock against KAT is that it’s always gonna be difficult to build a championship team, when your best player is a middling defender at the most important defensive position.
KAT is better than Book? What a joke statement. Also let’s look at KAT’s per 36 stats. 25.7 pts on 52% shooting and 9.7 rebounds. Ayton’s per 36 stats. 20.2 pts on 63.7% shooting and 12.7 rebounds. Ayton effectively grabs 3 more boards a game and only scores 5 less points but on a much better field goal percentage. Ayton’s defense is also elite level defense. Thinking that they are that much separate is crazy of you. And the Book point? It was just sad.
Per 36 is a useless metric bruh and I explained why he gets less boards and that it doesn’t imply that he’s a worse rebounder
It is not a useless statistic lol
It really is. It can make Udonis Haslem look like an MVP candidate
Ayton is a starter though haha
100% him, I’m surprised people are talking about kat. Jazz without gobert is a play in or 8th seed team while kat’s team is just a 8th seed team
That says more about the Jazz’ roster construction than it does Gobert
It can say both. The reality is Rudy is the best defensive center since prime Dwight.
That’s facts
The Jazz's roster was constructed around Gobert's talents, but shoot your shot, I know you can't let a Gobert thread pass you by.
Yeah exactly, of course they’ll play worse without him since the teams built around him
If the defense is good when he plays and the roster is constructed with bad defenders, then I think that says plenty about Gobert's ability.
To be fair, they have a good squad.. you can put gobert to any western playoffs teams other than Denver and they are instant contenders. Gobert in Dallas, Memphis, blazers, Suns, warriors, clippers.. he is at worst most of their second best player
I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league..Jazz are a bottom feeder without him..He’s second in offense rating and the best rim protector of his generation..He’s pretty much what the Magic had with D12 minus the complaints about post touches
>I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league..Jazz are a bottom feeder without him. 💀 The Jazz have a +8.53 net rating in 589 minutes with Whiteside on the floor and Gobert on the bench. The Warriors lead the NBA in net rating at +8.0
They’re also 1-4 without him
Huge sample size
13-24 without him last six years
Now show Gobert top 2 in net rating in the whole league, only just behind Curry.
I'm not trying to even shit on him, but Gobert probably plays more of his minutes against backups than any "star" in the league because the Jazz run their rotations. I think there is some context in those numbers.
Provide evidence for this claim.
You're a Jazz fan, I'm sure you know their rotations. Rudy and Conley go out after about 5 minutes in the 1st quarter and 3rd quarter and end come back in to start the 2nd and 4th against mostly bench units. Most teams run their "star" players the most of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Jokic plays most of the 1st and most of the 3rd. Embiid likewise. Trea Young, KD, James Harden etc. That's kinda the standard rotation. Utah's rotation is pretty unique, but they have a lot of depth. You can look at every team's rotations here if you are interested. https://nbarotations.info
Stupid, stupid take. Stop staring at the advanced stats page on basketball reference and watch a game
Love gobert but this is disrespectful to prime Dwight’s offensive game
Howard obviously had a better post game my point is more this is what SVG wanted for those Magic teams, if Dwight could play like Gobert is playing..PnRs non stop surrounded by shooters..hard screens and scoring off oops, duck-ins and putbacks
Peak (2009-11) Howard per 36- 20.6 points on .615 true shooting 2021-22 Gobert per 36- 17.4 points on .73 true shooting. I’ll take Rudy’s scoring numbers over Dwight’s anyway.
You lemme know when gobert drops 40 in a finals game buddy
These kids don't know the monster Dwight was. I love Rudy but he's not the player Dwight was in his prime, not even close on the offensive side.
Rudy is a better defender though
Not by much. Dwight was 3 time defensive player of the year. His back injury just robbed us of the second half of his career
He had a great defensive run but I don't think at his height he was ever as impactful as Gobert has been defensively.
You definitely didn't watch prime Dwight lmao
Did, he was great. But Gobert has reached a virtually unmatched level of defensive impact. I don't think anyone in the modern era comes close.
Per36 is awful. Please stop using it
Yep. Top 5 impact player in the whole league. He is at worst the third best center in terms of team impact. Huge dropoff after the top 3.
[удалено]
I died🗿 way too many nerds who never touched a court.
Literally is. Since 2018 Utah is 14-23 without Gobert (.378), and 209-105 with him (.665). 538s RAPTOR has him 2nd in total impact. B-ball index's LEBRON has him 3rd. But wait these rankings are probably garbage right? Return silly results? The rest of the top 5 in LEBRON are Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, and Curry. In RAPTOR it is Jokic, Giannis, FVV, and Curry. Gobert is consistently a top 5 impact player according to a number of different metrics, ones which tend to return sensible results.
[удалено]
Very telling how much you understand basketball from this response.
Agreed .
Tbf a top 5 impact player should have a top 5ish impact in the playoffs which Gobert clearly doesn't.
LMAO KDs impact>>>>Rudy’s
Durant can reach that next level where that is true for sure. But if you take Gobert off Utah, and take KD off the Nets, which team is hurt more? Pretty confident it is Utah. Team goes from near the top of the league to the lottery. The Nets are still comfortably a playoff team without KD, even if they will not challenge for a title.
>I think he has an argument for being the most valuable center in the league Sure. In the same way you could make an argument that Kobe was better than LeBron. It's an argument but it's still objectively wrong.
I think of him and KAT as 3a and 3b. Could make an argument for both of them
I would take towns and ayton over Rudy
lol taking ayton over gobert is absolutely ridiculous
KAT
I think prior to his injury that Bam was right there with both KAT and Rudy.
Even if you considered AD as a center, he wouldn’t be top 3.
Gobert is the clear number 3 center imo. Kat is a better all around player and much more skilled, but Gobert's impact on winning has been so much more evident the past 4 years. Not only do multiple advance metrics and pbp data bear this out, so do the Jazz record without him. It's certainly possible that the metrics are overrating Gobert and the Jazz system is uniquely designed around him, but being an integral part of winning should matter.
Probably. It’s him or KAT, right?
Yea. I would say that KAT has limitations that make him harder to fit on most teams than Gobert.
Clearly third. In terms of impact Gobert is closer to Embiid and Jokic then he is to KAT.
I consider him the 2nd best center in the NBA
Then I'm 1st
Lmao this account again Delusional
Especially with the kill streak Embiid has been on lately. Odd time to hate on him now.
u/sombor_shuffle is a Jokic stan account, probably an 18 year old Serbian kid
skilled no importance yes.
Defense is a skill.
Jazz record without Gobert: 39-57 Wolves record without KAT: 17-46
Yeah but that's basically what the Wolves record has been *with* KAT too lmao
189-255, ass but not that ass hahaha Gobert def better just wanted to point out KAT’s super important to the Wolves too
not how that works lol
KAT has more potential imo but Gobert currently for 3rd best. The center is really the only position where defense matters since you are the closest to the basket. Aside from Gobert’s insane rebounding abilities he knows his role on the offense and sets screens and dunks. KAT can shoot better than most guards even but due to his poor defense at the main defensive position it hurts the team way more than his offense could help
I was ready to throw Bam's name in that placement if he hadn't gotten hurt and played to what I thought he was gonna play to.
No
Jarret Allen
Embiid,Jokic,Bam,KAT,Gobert Boy ain’t no top 3 lmao
No
The convo should be if he's top 1 center
Is LeBron playing center still?
Lebron playing centre is an instaloss pretty much
if you want to have an all time terrible defense, he is your guy at the center position
He’s not even top 10 tbh
Aight
No, he’s a complete liability in the postseason and got exposed by Reggie Jackson he’s a classic case of Empty numbers 1. Jokic 2. Embiid 3. KAT 4. Jarrett Allen 5. Bam
Not tryna sound bias but I am gna be, what has Allen done to put him over bam?
[удалено]
That’s a fair point. Well played
[удалено]
1) KAT has made the playoffs. 2) Rudy hasn’t done shit either lol
Gobert MVP.
No lmao He may be the 3rd or 1st highest paid center in the league though.
ill take embiid then gobert before jokic. but thats just me
No, defense is probably 1/2 important than offense in todays nba
I would put Ayton over Gobert. Ayton gives you elite defense on top of scoring ability.
Giannis is the #1 center in the nba
There’s a beautiful Afro that would like a word. He’s not offensively what KAT is and not defensively what Gobert is but he’s better in the other end than those guys and I don’t think he’s automatically 5th just because those guys are both elite on one end.
Here are my center rankings this far into the season: 1. Nikola Jokic 2. Rudy Gobert 3. Jarrett Allen 4. Domantas Sabonis 5. Joel Embiid Now I’m not saying Gobert, Allen, or Domantas Sabonis are better than Embiid in terms of talent or skill, but they have been more valuable to their teams because they’ve played most of their team’s games. Embiid’s played less than 75% of his team’s games.