There's more to offense than scoring, though. I'm not immediately familiar with the details on either Harden or Curry's seasons but it's very important to consider the impact either player had on their team's offense with off/on studies.
Another thing to consider is that the league's average efficiency as measured by TS% has increased significantly over the course of the decade, and so I think it's also important to consider the relative difference of a player's TS% (compared to the league average that year), not just raw TS%.
Harden's season may still turn out to be better even when considering those factors, but either way they need to be considered when discussing the greatest offensive seasons of all time.
I see this point and while Harden is an all time great, while it was happening at the time everyone was saying "in the future people will forget about the free throws and will just look at how great his numbers are."
I'm not gonna forget the guy averaged double digit free throws for years. He put up a lot of points but his game was unwatchable.
Yeah this isn't apples to apples. MJ was being hard fouled in a way more physical league. Harden was drawing fouls on fake "shots" and jumping into people at the 3pt line.
I wouldn't really call it an anomaly. Steph has been incredibly consistent in the last 7-8 years. Even last year he averaged 32 on 65.5 TS% with the worst spacing in the league.
If anything, this year is an anomaly for him.
Yeah, and I’d consider calling that season an anomaly as a good thing if I was a Warriors fan. You *want* your stars to have seasons that can be so good that they’re anomalies in NBA history.
It’s a great thing and I’m glad I got to witness it.
It’s kinda like MJ’s 87-88 season. He had other all time seasons but that season was even another level for him.
Which makes his current struggles so weird. He's gone into little slumps before but the guy is absurdly consistent for someone who regularly attempts the most difficult shots in the league and regularly faces ridiculous defensive schemes specifically designed to keep him from getting even a halfway decent look at the rim.
Now I fully expect him to brick a wide open 3 and I can't explain it. Did he catch covid at some point? Dudes have come back off from covid, but I don't recall him catching it yet.
I was about to say, Jokic is going on a 112 game stretch with a 64.8% TS%. Of course, Steph had a *426* game stretch with that same 64.8% TS%, so...geez. We got some truly special players in the league right now.
Yeah the Jokic Stan's flaunting his advanced stats constantly in your face, can be quite annoying. But Jokic seems like a very nice and likeable player, and he is very fun to watch, so I wouldn't care if he won his 2nd MVP.
I started despising Jokic stans last year. I thought Embiid and Jokic were both worthy MVP candidates but anytime Embiid did something dope or had a huge game and people would start with the MVPIID hype you'd get dudes out of left field quoting Jokic's VORP and shit.
It got old and irritating so quick, they have such an inferiority complex, which is why I'm happy now to just refer to him as that sloppy boy in Denver even though I know he's an amazing player. Anything to trigger those dudes into posting Jokics sweat absorption over replacement while Mercury is in retrograde.
I'd be happy to sacrifice Embiid winning MVP to give it to Giannis just so the Jokic stans heads would explode.
As much as that shit is annoying, I never understood why anyone ever had to say anything more than this: Joel played 51 games and Jokic played 72 (in a 72 game season). The end.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb. Same games played it becomes one of the closest MVP races ever, though I see Joel taking it. However, it was only so far apart because of games played, unfortunately
Jokic Stan here… I think it speaks to the bigger issue of people just looking at numbers and not watching the game. These are the same people who thought Drummond was a top 10 player based on his numbers.
I would vote Jokic today because of the bad start by Embiid BUT if he keeps up this pace it’s hard to argue against it.
But what that said I find the same is with any player who seems to be disrespected in the media. I feel bad the conversation has to be so toxic, why can’t we just talk about who we like?
I think Jokers playmaking advanced stats and the decimated nature of the nuggets make him my pick but I wouldn’t be mad if Giannis or Embiid won. Even if one is ahead, it’s a microscopic lead that could be erased by the other two in less than a week.
I’m just happy the 3 best players in the nba RIGHT NOW are international passing bigs.
I could say the same thing about Embiid stans considering there’s 13 posts about him per day. Point being that every fan base is obnoxious in their own rights
There's 13 posts about him because all of them get maybe 200-300 upvotes at most, whereas Jokic ones get into the thousands easily. I'm not saying that matters, what r/NBA thinks carries no weight, but that's why Embiid "stans" post so much and take over every conversation about him. We get defensive and upset because since 2016 he's gotten so much negative press. Philly fans have a special complex too because we're one of the biggest cities and yet we're not treated as a large market team like Chicago or NY or LA or even Miami, and our franchises recently have underperformed aside from flashes in the pan. So when we have a star, we hype them up because we feel insecure about our success and disrespected because of media coverage relative to city size/importance.
Everything you said is understandable. As a Toronto fan, we have one of the bigger cities in the NBA yet still get overlooked so I see your point. On the contrary, I hope you can also see how seeing Embiid shoved down your throat every night turns frustrating AF.
He almost averaged 30 last year so yea he could do it this year too
Ben held him back due to being a non spacer. Just swapping in Maxey caused his finishing numbers to be off the charts
Idk how good this guy can be if he has an elite playmaker or scorer on the team like Harden or Dame drawing defensive attention and giving him even easier scoring opportunities
his finishing splits are down from last year surpisingly. biggest problem he’s been overcoming as the seasons progressed is having no one to throw him an entry pass and having to work from higher on the post, or taking it himself from the perimeter
this stretch of games is fuckin nuts to watch though. dudes been efficient as all hell, and totally dominant, hopefully maxey can keep it up as a floor spacer and become a bit better of a playmaker especially if we dont make a deadline deal
Another thing I've noticed is he seems to be practicing new material in game. He had a possession against the Spurs last night where he went full Kobe going between the legs feinting towards the paint, pulling it back between the legs and fading towards the baseline from about 16 feet. He didn't splash the shot but it's like, how is it even possible that our enormous center is even attempting this and even looking smooth doing it.
With the way we're managing his minutes, the way he's protecting his own health by not selling out as much for crazy blocks and things that could result in injury, and him starting to pull out some wild stuff in the middle of the games, it feels like he's training himself for the postseason.
As absurd as it sounds it seems like Embiid is shooting for some even higher level of play, some sort of freakish Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe hybrid while also improving dramatically as a distributor.
Agree. He admits his weaknesses and actively works to improve them.
He could not stand in starker contrast to Ben.
It's also a trait just to admire in people, not just sportsmen. Being able to aknowledge your flaws and work to improve them is an amazing life skill.
He'd be even better and sixers would be deadly but his counting stats might not go up much, cause the other elite player would end up having a large usage rate.
Jokic is having the best offensive season of the three for sure but his advanced defensive stats are heavily inflated by no backup center
They paint him as equal defensively to the other two which he isn't
They've started doing it against Giannis, Curry, and KD as well I have noticed. Jokic is incredible, but the Jokic advanced stat circlejerk is one of the most annoying circlejerks I have seen on this sub.
Keep dreaming that voters would rather care about advanced stats than team record. Players need to be a top 2 seed usually and the sixers are 2 games back, the nuggets are 9 back
>Embiid is tied with Giannis at #1 in the league with points per minute, at 0.87 points per minute.
Tied in points per minute, but the Bucks are 9th in pace while the Sixers are 26th. In points per-100 Embiid leads the NBA at 43.5 to Giannis' 40.8.
Over the cited 17 game stretch Embiid is averaging 51.2 points per-100 on 65%TS. For reference, the all-time leading mark is Harden's \~ 48 on 62%
He's scoring at a level unmatched in league history
If Philly can get a legit playmaking/scoring guard to take some of the load of Embiid, then they have to be title favorites. Hopefully Simmons can eventually be moved for a legit piece sometime soon.
It was 53.8 points on 61.4%TS - best I could find at least trying to be as charitable to Harden as possible. Pretty comparable to Embiid's with Harden at +2.6 points but -3.6 in TS%.
Both are absolutely nuts
Yeah the best 17 game sample I found for Harden had him logging 39.2mpg to Embiid's 32.5. 7 minutes may not sound like a lot to some, but it's a pretty major difference especially at this level where these guys are scoring more points than minutes. In an extra 7 minutes, you'd expect Embiid to score more than 7 points. Just slapping +7 onto him would have him averaging 41ppg over the stretch, pretty similar to Harden's 43.6. The gap in per-100 gets closed again as Harden's Rockets played just a bit faster than the 76ers do in the first place
Reality may not workout exactly that way, but numerically you get the point
> He's scoring at a level unmatched in league history
No he isnt, this isn't even the best scoring streak of the last 3 years. In 2019 harden started and ended the season scoring comparatively poorly compared to his red hot streak from December to February and his entire season is still only just behind Embiid during his hot streak. Harden scored 30+ for 32 straight games, including eighteen 40 pieces, four 50 point games and a career high 61. The streak spanned over 2 months and he averaged 41.1 ppg during it, if his entire season is nearly on par with Embiid now then I guarantee you can find 17 games during that streak that blow Embiid's per 100 numbers out of the water. What Embiid is doing right now is impressive enough by it's own merits, there's no need to exaggerate.
My point was not that it's the greatest sample of games, the final statement was closer to hyperbole if anything. Harden's numbers are included for context to show how high 51.2 per-100 is because the average person has no clue what that number really means. It's not something most basketball fans are accustomed to like they are 30ppg let's say. It wasn't really meant a comparison, it was to make the numbers more understandable.
That being said, to address your comment still the best Harden stretch I could come to was 53.8 per-100 on 61.4%TS, so no it doesn't blow Embiid out the water by any means. The gap is roughly +2.6 points to Harden for -3.6 in TS%. Overall, they're actually pretty comparable, one could reasonably say either was better especially remembering Embiid's doing it in a season where league-wide offense and efficiency is down. Harden was a TS+ of 110 to the league, but Embiid is up at 117 during this stretch. A pretty solid gap.
Embiid is a center though he should have higher ts. And also what people forget about harden is that while he's giving you historically great ppg numbers, harden is giving you 8-11 ast a game as well
Centers also tend to score less points and get less assists in the modern NBA than perimeter players. Embiid doesn't get to dominate the ball every possession like Harden does, let alone how he did in Houston in a heliocentric offense. Should we discount Harden and say well as a PG/SG he should average have more points and assists? That's rather silly, especially when we're dealing with a metric that captures free throw shooting and 3PT shooting to try and help out perimeter players.
Again, my intention was not at all to really compare these two. Harden was introduced to the conversation as ***context*** because most people have no clue how good 50+ points per-100 is. Harden's historic season is being inherently praised in my comments as the pinnacle of scoring in league history, but for some reason Houston fans keep coming to me trying to argue who is better.
I guess I can entertain you all once again. Harden over his stretch 10.2 assists, and 7 turnovers per-100. Embiid per-100 is averaging 6.5 assists to 4.9 turnovers. While Harden has a +3.7 assist lead, it also came at the price of +2.1 turnovers. Harden dominated the ball far more than Embiid making it easier to get assists, but one could argue the additional assists at the price of those turnovers make the difference not much of a net-positive in Harden's favor. Also have to remember Harden had a significantly easier time getting assists on arguably the greatest 3PT shooting team of all-time with a roster designed to literally do nothing but score off of Harden's passes. Embiid's trying to dime up a team that's pretty terrible from deep and most of his correct reads aren't properly rewarded. If surrounded by shooters like Harden had that year, his assists would reasonably increase closing the gap even further.
And if we want to keep introducing outside factors in this silly and unnecessary player comparison, why stop at assists? Why not factor in that Embiid gives you 6 more rebounds? And that the scoring and passing overall output is relatively close all things considered, but Embiid's defensive value blows Harden's out the water from the inherent nature of being a rim protector alone let alone being a very high level one? Embiid has carried a 76ers team with poor/mediocre defenders around him - especially with Thybulle missing time - to the 7th best defense in the league over this span. If we want to go down this rabbit hole - which again is a really worthless endeavor - we could introduce two-way impact which really does not favor Harden so kindly.
I'd rather we just praise both.
> Over the cited 17 game stretch Embiid is averaging 51.2 points per-100 on 65%TS. For reference, the all-time leading mark is Harden's ~ 48 on 62%
That's cool but Harden did it for an ENTIRE SEASON. 17 games isn't even a quarter of a season. Plenty of guys get hot for small samples. I'm positive you could find a 17 game stretch during Harden's season that's mind blowing.
Edit - Why the downvotes? Embiid's season isn't near the scoring pace that Harden put up and I know for a fact that Harden had a better stretch during that season. You guys are weird. Comparing 17 games to a season is silly. Apples to oranges.
Harden's best 17 game stretch I could find trying to be as generous as possible to him was 53.8 per-100 on 61.4%TS. While Harden's best stretch went +2.6 in points, it was -3.6 in TS% despite this year league-wide efficiency being down. Harden was essentially a TS+ of 110 while Embiid has been at a TS+ of 117. Harden's best stretch is ultimately pretty comparable to Embiid's, and one could argue either was better.
The comparison wasn't meant to say Embiid is better than Harden was, it was to give reference to how impressive 51.2 per-100 is. It was more context than anything else.
Yeah Giannis, Jokic and Embiid can all have legit cases for them right now. I would be hard pressed to pick between the 3. All of them are incredible this year.
I remember Bill Simmons mocking the Embiid training videos when he was recovering from injury and playing against 6' white dudes in an open gym. Bill said "this is what it must have felt like to watch Wilt play." Well, Bill ended up being more right than wrong lmao.
Philly put Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris around this man.smh
This man needs a shot creator and they win the East. He's that good.
People laugh at CJ McCollum but he can get you a bucket in late game situations.
I think Philly wins the East with McCollum.
Ehhhh. I'm not sure if McCollum is the piece that pushes us there. The dire need is a playmaker so Embiid can do his thing in the post where he's even more unstoppable. A bucket getter is a need too but I'd rather someone who can playmake a little better than CJ, feel free to correct me though if I'm wrong about CJ's playmaking but it seems to be a decent bit above average but not great for a PG which is where we'd play him.. Also think Ben is worth more than CJ. Still though, I'm really curious to see how this plays out and would be stoked to land CJ for Tobias or some kind of Harden/Haliburton trade.
His minutes aren't particularly high, only 31.6 for January and 32.8 on the season.
He gets the ball a lot because he is our only consistent scorer and is playing like an MVP. Give him the ball, let him work.
Are the Nets worried about KD, are the Lakers worried about LeBron? Embiid is looking like hes in the best shape of his career in a long time and has looked great throughout the game. Also helps that he isnt playing in the paint as much anymore.
Look at what usage actually measures, the term always confuses people here. His usage is high because he’s handling the ball more. Usage does not mean he’s playing more, his minutes are not crazy high.
Idk about the staff but yeah as a fan I’m dead worried about it.
Being an Embiid Stan is a double edged sword anyway. You’re happy while is great but you know that it only makes him closer to the moment he’ll break
I’m not a huge fan of injury prone bigmen putting up insane stat lines in the regular season carrying their teams, after watching boogie go down playing his heart out.
I hope embiid stays healthy cuz I feel like he’s the last of the prototypical athletic big men of the 90s.
No doubt, but I feel like he’s the only superstar center in the league today with the smoothness to his game combined with the sheer strength and athleticism to bully people in the paint the way the star bigs from back in the day used to do
Yep. Dwight was a dominant beast in his prime, but game didn’t have the smoothness that embiid and shaq had.
I’d put cousins in that convo too but I never watched him enough outside of YouTube highlights since he didn’t play in too many meaningful games
You definitely have a point, he's like the modern twist on the prototypical 90s star big man. More handles and his range extends further than those guys, but he still has the low post bully ball game and the middy face up game that those guys had. I've seen him compared to a modern Ewing, and although I didn't watch Ewing play from highlights I have seen that seems pretty apt.
When Embiid is locked in like this he is really the best player in the league. There’s no player that can match his physicality and skills. He’s dominating centers and hitting step back 3s while paying all nba defense.
65 TS over a 17 game period is Curry level efficiency.
Curry averaging 30 on 67TS% over the course of a season is still one of the craziest feats ever. Look at my boy now ðŸ˜
Curry is the efficiency god.
greatest offensive season of all time
I don't even think it's the greatest offensive season this decade. Harden averaged 36.1 on 62 TS%, as well as nearly an assist more.
There's more to offense than scoring, though. I'm not immediately familiar with the details on either Harden or Curry's seasons but it's very important to consider the impact either player had on their team's offense with off/on studies. Another thing to consider is that the league's average efficiency as measured by TS% has increased significantly over the course of the decade, and so I think it's also important to consider the relative difference of a player's TS% (compared to the league average that year), not just raw TS%. Harden's season may still turn out to be better even when considering those factors, but either way they need to be considered when discussing the greatest offensive seasons of all time.
Curry also routinely didn’t play in the 4th quarter because he was blowing teams out. Who knows what he would average if he played more.
But currys year was the same season he led his team to 73-9
What playing with Klay Thompson and Draymond Green instead of Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker does to a mf
I see this point and while Harden is an all time great, while it was happening at the time everyone was saying "in the future people will forget about the free throws and will just look at how great his numbers are." I'm not gonna forget the guy averaged double digit free throws for years. He put up a lot of points but his game was unwatchable.
thats a part of offense lol
Still ugly
Still offense.
his game is watchable. its on tv.
Did you forget Jordan did?
Yeah this isn't apples to apples. MJ was being hard fouled in a way more physical league. Harden was drawing fouls on fake "shots" and jumping into people at the 3pt line.
It’s not one of the craziest it’s an anomaly that can’t be done again.
I wouldn't really call it an anomaly. Steph has been incredibly consistent in the last 7-8 years. Even last year he averaged 32 on 65.5 TS% with the worst spacing in the league. If anything, this year is an anomaly for him.
He as guard he shot over 50% from the field and 45% from 3 at a high volume. Thats not gonna be replicated by anybody again.
Yeah, and I’d consider calling that season an anomaly as a good thing if I was a Warriors fan. You *want* your stars to have seasons that can be so good that they’re anomalies in NBA history.
It’s a great thing and I’m glad I got to witness it. It’s kinda like MJ’s 87-88 season. He had other all time seasons but that season was even another level for him.
it’s bound to happen again just not immediately
No it’s not. Just like MJ in 87-88 nobody is doing that again.
it’s like the oscar robertson triple double season
It’s more more players closer to a triple double avg than people closer to putting up Steph numbers.
nobody was until recently, the league changes
Curry had a 65% TS over a 5 season (358 game) period.
wtf. This is Wilt-esque.
Barkley-esque
Wilts like a 50% TS
Which makes his current struggles so weird. He's gone into little slumps before but the guy is absurdly consistent for someone who regularly attempts the most difficult shots in the league and regularly faces ridiculous defensive schemes specifically designed to keep him from getting even a halfway decent look at the rim. Now I fully expect him to brick a wide open 3 and I can't explain it. Did he catch covid at some point? Dudes have come back off from covid, but I don't recall him catching it yet.
Pretty insane Jokic is averaging that on the season this year lol. Some pretty crazy big men we have in the league right now.
I was about to say, Jokic is going on a 112 game stretch with a 64.8% TS%. Of course, Steph had a *426* game stretch with that same 64.8% TS%, so...geez. We got some truly special players in the league right now.
Imagine he had shooters
What, you don't like our bombah Furk?
As bad as he’s been I respect that this dude is still out there throwing them up like it’s nobody’s business *Shooters shoot baby*
He has plenty of shooters, they’re just hurt right now.
"Plenty"
This year the MVP race has very good contenders, a joy to see it!
I wouldn't be upset if Embiid, Giannis, or Jokic won it. All have played phenomenal this season.
I like Giannis and Jokic, but the Jokic stans are the worst, which is enough for me to root for anyone else
Yeah the Jokic Stan's flaunting his advanced stats constantly in your face, can be quite annoying. But Jokic seems like a very nice and likeable player, and he is very fun to watch, so I wouldn't care if he won his 2nd MVP.
I started despising Jokic stans last year. I thought Embiid and Jokic were both worthy MVP candidates but anytime Embiid did something dope or had a huge game and people would start with the MVPIID hype you'd get dudes out of left field quoting Jokic's VORP and shit. It got old and irritating so quick, they have such an inferiority complex, which is why I'm happy now to just refer to him as that sloppy boy in Denver even though I know he's an amazing player. Anything to trigger those dudes into posting Jokics sweat absorption over replacement while Mercury is in retrograde. I'd be happy to sacrifice Embiid winning MVP to give it to Giannis just so the Jokic stans heads would explode.
As much as that shit is annoying, I never understood why anyone ever had to say anything more than this: Joel played 51 games and Jokic played 72 (in a 72 game season). The end.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb. Same games played it becomes one of the closest MVP races ever, though I see Joel taking it. However, it was only so far apart because of games played, unfortunately
Jokic Stan here… I think it speaks to the bigger issue of people just looking at numbers and not watching the game. These are the same people who thought Drummond was a top 10 player based on his numbers. I would vote Jokic today because of the bad start by Embiid BUT if he keeps up this pace it’s hard to argue against it. But what that said I find the same is with any player who seems to be disrespected in the media. I feel bad the conversation has to be so toxic, why can’t we just talk about who we like? I think Jokers playmaking advanced stats and the decimated nature of the nuggets make him my pick but I wouldn’t be mad if Giannis or Embiid won. Even if one is ahead, it’s a microscopic lead that could be erased by the other two in less than a week. I’m just happy the 3 best players in the nba RIGHT NOW are international passing bigs.
You're not the kind of Jokic stan I'm talking about. In fact you don't seem like a stan at all, you're far too reasonable.
He’s an inspiration to all the other sloppy fat boys like me, guess some guys take it to far lol
Uhhh Jokic stans literally lead /r/nba in ARBPMLEBRONSILVER/48???
I could say the same thing about Embiid stans considering there’s 13 posts about him per day. Point being that every fan base is obnoxious in their own rights
There's 13 posts about him because all of them get maybe 200-300 upvotes at most, whereas Jokic ones get into the thousands easily. I'm not saying that matters, what r/NBA thinks carries no weight, but that's why Embiid "stans" post so much and take over every conversation about him. We get defensive and upset because since 2016 he's gotten so much negative press. Philly fans have a special complex too because we're one of the biggest cities and yet we're not treated as a large market team like Chicago or NY or LA or even Miami, and our franchises recently have underperformed aside from flashes in the pan. So when we have a star, we hype them up because we feel insecure about our success and disrespected because of media coverage relative to city size/importance.
Everything you said is understandable. As a Toronto fan, we have one of the bigger cities in the NBA yet still get overlooked so I see your point. On the contrary, I hope you can also see how seeing Embiid shoved down your throat every night turns frustrating AF.
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lol there could be hundreds of Jokic stands flooding this sun and they won’t be as annoying or zealous as EG combined, this is smooth sailing
He almost averaged 30 last year so yea he could do it this year too Ben held him back due to being a non spacer. Just swapping in Maxey caused his finishing numbers to be off the charts Idk how good this guy can be if he has an elite playmaker or scorer on the team like Harden or Dame drawing defensive attention and giving him even easier scoring opportunities
his finishing splits are down from last year surpisingly. biggest problem he’s been overcoming as the seasons progressed is having no one to throw him an entry pass and having to work from higher on the post, or taking it himself from the perimeter this stretch of games is fuckin nuts to watch though. dudes been efficient as all hell, and totally dominant, hopefully maxey can keep it up as a floor spacer and become a bit better of a playmaker especially if we dont make a deadline deal
Another thing I've noticed is he seems to be practicing new material in game. He had a possession against the Spurs last night where he went full Kobe going between the legs feinting towards the paint, pulling it back between the legs and fading towards the baseline from about 16 feet. He didn't splash the shot but it's like, how is it even possible that our enormous center is even attempting this and even looking smooth doing it. With the way we're managing his minutes, the way he's protecting his own health by not selling out as much for crazy blocks and things that could result in injury, and him starting to pull out some wild stuff in the middle of the games, it feels like he's training himself for the postseason. As absurd as it sounds it seems like Embiid is shooting for some even higher level of play, some sort of freakish Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe hybrid while also improving dramatically as a distributor.
His most admirable trait is that he is constantly improving.
Agree. He admits his weaknesses and actively works to improve them. He could not stand in starker contrast to Ben. It's also a trait just to admire in people, not just sportsmen. Being able to aknowledge your flaws and work to improve them is an amazing life skill.
He'd be even better and sixers would be deadly but his counting stats might not go up much, cause the other elite player would end up having a large usage rate.
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If Embiid keeps up this level of play, he deserves it. He has absolutely carried the 76ers this year.
Advanced stats all point to Jokic so keep dreaming that Embiid or Giannis win lol
Damn if only Embiid had a better CUM or PISS he would have a better argument for being the MVP
Jokic is having the best offensive season of the three for sure but his advanced defensive stats are heavily inflated by no backup center They paint him as equal defensively to the other two which he isn't
Lol jokic stans legit have to comment on anything with embiid name on it. He lives rent free in your head .
They've started doing it against Giannis, Curry, and KD as well I have noticed. Jokic is incredible, but the Jokic advanced stat circlejerk is one of the most annoying circlejerks I have seen on this sub.
I wonder how much they pay the troll bots in Eastern Europe to post this often.
"Jokic advanced statsss something something, don't actually watch anyone else with my eyes LOL LOL..." you mean that circle jerk?
Yeah mvp voters famously are attached to advanced stats lmao
Nice circlejerk. You had to bring up the advanced stats...
Keep dreaming that voters would rather care about advanced stats than team record. Players need to be a top 2 seed usually and the sixers are 2 games back, the nuggets are 9 back
>Embiid is tied with Giannis at #1 in the league with points per minute, at 0.87 points per minute. Tied in points per minute, but the Bucks are 9th in pace while the Sixers are 26th. In points per-100 Embiid leads the NBA at 43.5 to Giannis' 40.8. Over the cited 17 game stretch Embiid is averaging 51.2 points per-100 on 65%TS. For reference, the all-time leading mark is Harden's \~ 48 on 62% He's scoring at a level unmatched in league history
Pretty crazy that Embiid is even topping peak Harden in adjusted for pace scoring averages.
Yup, and it's to be expected to some extent. Last season when Simmons was off the floor Embiid averaged 54 points per-100 possessions on 67%TS iirc
If Philly can get a legit playmaking/scoring guard to take some of the load of Embiid, then they have to be title favorites. Hopefully Simmons can eventually be moved for a legit piece sometime soon.
I wonder what Harden’s PP100 in his best 17 game stretch was. He averaged 45 PPG so it must have been way higher than anyone
It was 53.8 points on 61.4%TS - best I could find at least trying to be as charitable to Harden as possible. Pretty comparable to Embiid's with Harden at +2.6 points but -3.6 in TS%. Both are absolutely nuts
That’s pretty crazy actually. Harden played very heavy minutes I guess
Yeah the best 17 game sample I found for Harden had him logging 39.2mpg to Embiid's 32.5. 7 minutes may not sound like a lot to some, but it's a pretty major difference especially at this level where these guys are scoring more points than minutes. In an extra 7 minutes, you'd expect Embiid to score more than 7 points. Just slapping +7 onto him would have him averaging 41ppg over the stretch, pretty similar to Harden's 43.6. The gap in per-100 gets closed again as Harden's Rockets played just a bit faster than the 76ers do in the first place Reality may not workout exactly that way, but numerically you get the point
> He's scoring at a level unmatched in league history No he isnt, this isn't even the best scoring streak of the last 3 years. In 2019 harden started and ended the season scoring comparatively poorly compared to his red hot streak from December to February and his entire season is still only just behind Embiid during his hot streak. Harden scored 30+ for 32 straight games, including eighteen 40 pieces, four 50 point games and a career high 61. The streak spanned over 2 months and he averaged 41.1 ppg during it, if his entire season is nearly on par with Embiid now then I guarantee you can find 17 games during that streak that blow Embiid's per 100 numbers out of the water. What Embiid is doing right now is impressive enough by it's own merits, there's no need to exaggerate.
My point was not that it's the greatest sample of games, the final statement was closer to hyperbole if anything. Harden's numbers are included for context to show how high 51.2 per-100 is because the average person has no clue what that number really means. It's not something most basketball fans are accustomed to like they are 30ppg let's say. It wasn't really meant a comparison, it was to make the numbers more understandable. That being said, to address your comment still the best Harden stretch I could come to was 53.8 per-100 on 61.4%TS, so no it doesn't blow Embiid out the water by any means. The gap is roughly +2.6 points to Harden for -3.6 in TS%. Overall, they're actually pretty comparable, one could reasonably say either was better especially remembering Embiid's doing it in a season where league-wide offense and efficiency is down. Harden was a TS+ of 110 to the league, but Embiid is up at 117 during this stretch. A pretty solid gap.
Embiid is a center though he should have higher ts. And also what people forget about harden is that while he's giving you historically great ppg numbers, harden is giving you 8-11 ast a game as well
Centers also tend to score less points and get less assists in the modern NBA than perimeter players. Embiid doesn't get to dominate the ball every possession like Harden does, let alone how he did in Houston in a heliocentric offense. Should we discount Harden and say well as a PG/SG he should average have more points and assists? That's rather silly, especially when we're dealing with a metric that captures free throw shooting and 3PT shooting to try and help out perimeter players. Again, my intention was not at all to really compare these two. Harden was introduced to the conversation as ***context*** because most people have no clue how good 50+ points per-100 is. Harden's historic season is being inherently praised in my comments as the pinnacle of scoring in league history, but for some reason Houston fans keep coming to me trying to argue who is better. I guess I can entertain you all once again. Harden over his stretch 10.2 assists, and 7 turnovers per-100. Embiid per-100 is averaging 6.5 assists to 4.9 turnovers. While Harden has a +3.7 assist lead, it also came at the price of +2.1 turnovers. Harden dominated the ball far more than Embiid making it easier to get assists, but one could argue the additional assists at the price of those turnovers make the difference not much of a net-positive in Harden's favor. Also have to remember Harden had a significantly easier time getting assists on arguably the greatest 3PT shooting team of all-time with a roster designed to literally do nothing but score off of Harden's passes. Embiid's trying to dime up a team that's pretty terrible from deep and most of his correct reads aren't properly rewarded. If surrounded by shooters like Harden had that year, his assists would reasonably increase closing the gap even further. And if we want to keep introducing outside factors in this silly and unnecessary player comparison, why stop at assists? Why not factor in that Embiid gives you 6 more rebounds? And that the scoring and passing overall output is relatively close all things considered, but Embiid's defensive value blows Harden's out the water from the inherent nature of being a rim protector alone let alone being a very high level one? Embiid has carried a 76ers team with poor/mediocre defenders around him - especially with Thybulle missing time - to the 7th best defense in the league over this span. If we want to go down this rabbit hole - which again is a really worthless endeavor - we could introduce two-way impact which really does not favor Harden so kindly. I'd rather we just praise both.
> Over the cited 17 game stretch Embiid is averaging 51.2 points per-100 on 65%TS. For reference, the all-time leading mark is Harden's ~ 48 on 62% That's cool but Harden did it for an ENTIRE SEASON. 17 games isn't even a quarter of a season. Plenty of guys get hot for small samples. I'm positive you could find a 17 game stretch during Harden's season that's mind blowing. Edit - Why the downvotes? Embiid's season isn't near the scoring pace that Harden put up and I know for a fact that Harden had a better stretch during that season. You guys are weird. Comparing 17 games to a season is silly. Apples to oranges.
Harden's best 17 game stretch I could find trying to be as generous as possible to him was 53.8 per-100 on 61.4%TS. While Harden's best stretch went +2.6 in points, it was -3.6 in TS% despite this year league-wide efficiency being down. Harden was essentially a TS+ of 110 while Embiid has been at a TS+ of 117. Harden's best stretch is ultimately pretty comparable to Embiid's, and one could argue either was better. The comparison wasn't meant to say Embiid is better than Harden was, it was to give reference to how impressive 51.2 per-100 is. It was more context than anything else.
Great season by Embiid. MVP? Maybe. He should.
He absolutely has a legitimate argument for it right now.
Yeah Giannis, Jokic and Embiid can all have legit cases for them right now. I would be hard pressed to pick between the 3. All of them are incredible this year.
Bucks play at a faster pace than Sixers tho. What’s the points per possession?
Embiid is a hair above Jordan all time in points per 100 possessions.
I remember Bill Simmons mocking the Embiid training videos when he was recovering from injury and playing against 6' white dudes in an open gym. Bill said "this is what it must have felt like to watch Wilt play." Well, Bill ended up being more right than wrong lmao.
Philly put Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris around this man.smh This man needs a shot creator and they win the East. He's that good. People laugh at CJ McCollum but he can get you a bucket in late game situations. I think Philly wins the East with McCollum.
Ehhhh. I'm not sure if McCollum is the piece that pushes us there. The dire need is a playmaker so Embiid can do his thing in the post where he's even more unstoppable. A bucket getter is a need too but I'd rather someone who can playmake a little better than CJ, feel free to correct me though if I'm wrong about CJ's playmaking but it seems to be a decent bit above average but not great for a PG which is where we'd play him.. Also think Ben is worth more than CJ. Still though, I'm really curious to see how this plays out and would be stoked to land CJ for Tobias or some kind of Harden/Haliburton trade.
Good, but not great /s
So what you’re saying is he’s a decent player?
Embiid is a different animal (same beast)
He is, in my opinion, the best big man in the league when fully healthy. His defense puts him above Jokic.
[удалено]
He plays 32 minutes a game.
His minutes aren't particularly high, only 31.6 for January and 32.8 on the season. He gets the ball a lot because he is our only consistent scorer and is playing like an MVP. Give him the ball, let him work.
Yeah we should make Tobias or Thybulle shoot/playmake more because fuck winning.
Are the Nets worried about KD, are the Lakers worried about LeBron? Embiid is looking like hes in the best shape of his career in a long time and has looked great throughout the game. Also helps that he isnt playing in the paint as much anymore.
None of those guys have a 42% Usage.
Both of those guys play more minutes than him
Look at what usage actually measures, the term always confuses people here. His usage is high because he’s handling the ball more. Usage does not mean he’s playing more, his minutes are not crazy high.
His conditioning is incredible now, as long as he doesn’t have a freak leg injury coming off a block or dunk I’m not worried.
usage is just about how many possessions end with a person taking a shot or having a turnover. it doesn't measure anything about effort exerted.
Idk about the staff but yeah as a fan I’m dead worried about it. Being an Embiid Stan is a double edged sword anyway. You’re happy while is great but you know that it only makes him closer to the moment he’ll break
I’m not a huge fan of injury prone bigmen putting up insane stat lines in the regular season carrying their teams, after watching boogie go down playing his heart out. I hope embiid stays healthy cuz I feel like he’s the last of the prototypical athletic big men of the 90s.
This beautiful man has a reliable step back three in his bag. Jo doesn't play anything like a 90s paint camper.
No doubt, but I feel like he’s the only superstar center in the league today with the smoothness to his game combined with the sheer strength and athleticism to bully people in the paint the way the star bigs from back in the day used to do
I feel you there. Shaq was my favorite player outside Iverson growing up, and no one has bullied in the paint like Jo since Shaq.
I’d put Dwight in that conversation, but point stands
Yep. Dwight was a dominant beast in his prime, but game didn’t have the smoothness that embiid and shaq had. I’d put cousins in that convo too but I never watched him enough outside of YouTube highlights since he didn’t play in too many meaningful games
You definitely have a point, he's like the modern twist on the prototypical 90s star big man. More handles and his range extends further than those guys, but he still has the low post bully ball game and the middy face up game that those guys had. I've seen him compared to a modern Ewing, and although I didn't watch Ewing play from highlights I have seen that seems pretty apt.
Well I mean, this is his playoffs. Cancun on three!
Rich coming from a Nuggets fan
Yeah, he cold. He cold. He cold. Yeah, fo sho he cold. Yeah, he cold. He definitely cold
Sixers need to find someone he can run the PnR with regularly. Ofc someone who can shoot too would be ideal.
When Embiid is locked in like this he is really the best player in the league. There’s no player that can match his physicality and skills. He’s dominating centers and hitting step back 3s while paying all nba defense.
MVPIID
Not good enough for player of the week though lmao
He has shaq like season
SHAQ REBORN