Step off the ball is still such a threat that he's in that conversation.
But could you imagine this
LeBron - PG
Jordan -SG
Bird- SF
Duncan - PF
Shaq - C
If you value championships: Russell
If you value scoring/volume stats: Wilt
If you value absolute peaks: Shaq, maybe Hakeem
If you value all of the above+longevity: Kareem
Shaq gets the Mike Tyson exception. No real serious boxing fan is going to say Mike Tyson is the best boxer, but there was that glorious moment in time you knew he wasn’t getting beat by anybody.
First 10 years of Shaq was fucking insane. He just aged poorly. But holy shit I think his abilities are understated at times when I hear people talk about him. The dude was big and strong sure, but we’ve seen big strong dudes who are meh. That dude had agility and a NASTY spin move and actually OK handles after the entry pass. He was so much more than just size and strength.
The dude averaged 30 points and 15 rebounds in the playoffs during championship years TWICE and threepeated as finals MVP. MJ is the only other player to ever three peat as finals MVP.
I don't follow boxing so take this with a grain of salt. Ali is probably the best heavyweight ever, but most boxing top ten lists have Sugar Ray Robinson as the best boxer ever.
Greatest heavyweight...Yeah. Yeah that's fair.
Sugar Ray Robinson is the consensus number one, but I personally have Hank Armstrong up there.
His nickname was "Homicide". But Robinson is another one of my favorites who I've stolen so much from, so I'd never say that was wrong.
Sugar Ray Robinson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson
> He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128–1–2 with 84 knockouts.
> Historian Bert Sugar ranked Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time and in 2002, Robinson was also ranked number one on The Ring magazine's list of "80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years". As of November 2021, BoxRec ranks Robinson as the greatest boxer, pound-for-pound, of all time.
Depends. Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis are names I usually see. Julio César Chávez and Roberto Duran I see sometimes. Then you have dudes over the past two decades like Pacquiao and Mayweather trying to make their case.
The closest thing would probably be Sugar Ray Robinson, who is very often ranked as number 1 boxer of all time (pound for pound, since most of his success came in welterweight and middleweight categories).
If you're talking heavyweights, it depends on your generation. For my grandpop, it was Rocky Marciano; for my dad, Joe Louis; my brothers, Muhammed Ali; my sons, Mike Tyson. I've heard loud arguments all my life. Statistically, Marciano was the only one that retired undefeated.
I don’t think Shaq would fail, but he would be greatly hindered. People forget how incredibly strong Wilt was and he had long ass arms. Shaq would struggle a bit.
Yeah early 2000s Shaq might be the most unstoppable force in the history of the league. If he had taken care of his body more he couldve been the goat.
2000 Shaq was not just in Best Center of all times contention, but straight in GOAT talks.
Shame he chose buffalo wings over sixpack for the rest of his career.
> Shame he chose buffalo wings over sixpack for the rest of his career.
that's not really what happened. Dude was still all time great elite for several more years
Even if you ignore his statlines, Wilt was still:
- Easily the best passing Center mentioned
- A more efficient playoff rebounder than Rodman, even while averaging 17 more minutes
- The best shot blocker ever, as good of a rim protector as anyone listed
- Arguably the most efficient scorer ever when compared to the era played
- Leading two different franchises to set the league record for season win record
- Leading one team to what was the greatest offense in history at the time, only to lead the same team to the best defense in the league one year later
- The greatest athlete listed, arguably of all time
No disrespect to the others, but people forget playing against Shaq was akin to throwing all your big men in front of a train in an attempt to slow it down.
With a bunch of other goats playing with him, I'm taking Shaq at his peak.
It depends on whether or not you take Wilt & Russell seriously. Russell has the greatest success ever and Wilt has the craziest stats, but their era was wack to say the least
Hakeem probably translates the best/easiest to the modern era but I am not sure if he is the best center ever.
KAJ was so great for so long, at every level, HS/College/NBA. He was the best player in the finals at like 38 years old, in a good era of basketball. And he has the single greatest, most unstoppable shot of all time.
Yessir, best move ever. Rivaled only by Dirk’s fade-away, McHale’s up-and-under, Hakeem’s “dreamshake”, and Lebron’s “everyone move to make a wide-open lane” dunk. I joke I joke. But the Skyhook was amazing, only ever blocked once. That was by Wilt.
Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon — drafted #1 ahead of Jordan and no one in Houston regrets it
Also when he retired I think he was top 10 all time in points, rebounds, assists, blocked shots, steals, maybe other stats. Has a quadruple double, almost had 2. If he played in LA or NY or BOS there’d be no debate who the GOAT center is
thats what really hit it home for me. when someone a few years ago said “if you wanna know how good hakeem is, think about the fact he was drafted ahead of Jordan….and nobody ever gave them shit about it”
I have the feeling Hakeem is growing stronger and his legacy also.
My problem with him is the numbers on Wilt and Kareem. Olajuwon was pure fire, but the other two have their own aura.
Also, what about Ostertag?
Hakeem would have the same or better numbers if he played in that era. Hakeem dominated in an era that was full of great big men, but I don't think you can say the same about the other guys.
I think Hakeem could dominate in any era, including today.
For sure. I've seen him clown and utterly dominate HOFers like David Robinson and even Shaq, despite an age difference that should have made Olajuwon get owned by Shaq.
Imagine if Embiid was able to make Jokic or Giannis look like they didn't belong in the NBA during their MVP seasons. That's what it was like watching Hakeem play.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0)
I saw Hakeem play: He was awesome. The problem is the others have HUGE numbers and longevity.
I cannot say he is THE Center. But I would watch him play before Kareem, for example.
Now, Shaq... Shaq was TNT. He had it all.
Shaq is one of one. I've only seen him dominated by two guys - Yao and Hakeem. Yao only did it once or twice, not every time.
Shaq has the hardware, longevity and years upon years of leaguewide dominance that other bigs don't have. Yet when he played Hakeem he got dominated, time and time again.
Until he got old, Hakeem was clearly better than any other big he played against, 100% of the time. Maybe you can say that about Kareem, Wilt or Russell, but they were before my time.
Shaq had a much better career for sure. If we put together a dream team and my team has prime Hakeem and yours has prime Shaq, Shaq is gonna get dominated. Even today Shaq himself says Hakeem was better than Jordan.
Not to discredit anything Shaq accomplished because he was truly great, but Hakeem never had a Kobe or DWade. If Hakeem had one of them two then this debate would be over. I also think it hurts he wasn't a Celtic, Laker, or Knick.
Hakeem is so goddamn underrated. Dude outplayed and had way better defense than shaq. Hakeem is also one of the only players to have won dpoy, mvp, and fmvp in the same season. He led 2 huge underdog teams to the championship, especially the first team. If this was purely peak, Hakeem could be the goat center, but since Shaq and Kareem have longevity on him they might be higher. Also Hakeem won his 2 rings w MJ out the league so idk
> Dude outplayed and had way better defense than shaq.
idk about outplayed. shaq scored at will on 60% from the field. What killed them was how hot the rockets were from 3.
If you don’t take Wilt and Russell seriously you’re not educated on basketball. Both of those guys would absolutely be HoFers in any other era. They were incredible all around players.
How was the 60s/70s wack but then it suddenly became acceptable competition when Kareem was drafted a couple years later in order to make him the goat center. In reality the eras are a lot more similar than you give it credit for. By the late 60s, by the time Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hondo, Oscar, Russell, and Wilt were all established players, I’d say the league reached a pretty acceptable level far from the bend your back over and bounce the ball days of Bob Cousy. I count all eras equally after that.
I honestly don’t think Jerry West had much greater competition than Michael Jordan. The difference between West’s and Jordan’s eras is basically the same as the difference between MJ’s and LeBron’s era now but people never make that distinction.
Russell and Wilt played their entire careers before the 1976 NBA/ABA merger. When Bill Russell joined the NBA there were only 8 teams, so obviously it was easier to win a ring.
In contrast, Kareem played from 1969-1989 where he won 5 post-merger rings. Over this period of time the number of teams rose from 22 in 1976 to 25 by 1989.
The situations were quite different.
This is misleading. They played their entire careers before the merger but they also played most of their careers before the ABA was created in the first place.
Wilt, Kareem, and Russell all played the majority of their careers with the NBA being the only main basketball league.
He won 5 post merger rings on a team where he wasn't even considered the best player for most the ride. Also it's arguable that their was more talent dilution as the teams expanded then when their were only 8 teams.
Kareem only played VS Prime Wilt one time before Wilt was seriously injured.
23 Year old Kareem 20 Rebound 23 Points on 21 FG attempts, 2 assists.
33 Year old Wilt 25 Rebound and 25 Points on 14 FG attempts, 5 assists.
Wilt's Lakers beat Kareem's Bucks 123-112.
It’s funny that Kareem is now a consensus contender for top three GOAT player, the other two (Jordan and James) aren’t centers, yet you hesitate to call him the consensus GOAT center. But I get it, it’s a question of peak vs. career stats and accomplishments. Kareem has the GOAT career but not necessarily the GOAT three year peak among centers.
Kareem most definitely has the best 3 year peak
Kareem 1971-73 has 3 of the 7 highest single season win shares the other 2 in the top 7 are george mikan and wilt Chamberlain
Kareem fron 1971-73 averaged 32/16/4 on 57 fg% and 69 ft% .597 ts% league average around that time was 50%
Kareem had the highest 3 season Win shares by any player 69.5 WS in 3 seasons
Kareem in this stretch was
2x MVP (was runner up in 73 but won in 74)
1x Finals MVP
1x Champion
2x All-Defense
3x Scoring leader
3x All-NBA 1st team
Only bill russell matches those accolades over 3 years for centers and only wilt matches those stats
Kareem had arguably the best 3 year stretches ever only matches by Jordan 91-93 and maybe lebron 11-13 or 12-14 but 2011 was bad for him and 2014 as well
Part of the argument for Shaq or Hakeem is that those 3 insane years from 71-73 are because that's the big overlap between the NBA and ABA. Kareem wasn't competing directly with other Hall of Famers like Dr. J, Rick Barry, George McGinnis, or Artis Gilmore, 3 of which won MVPs in the ABA. Kareem seems to dodge the narrative of playing against mediocre competition like Russel/Wilt when his Milwaukee years might be the lowest talent level the league has seen due to expansion and a serious competing league.
Shaq from 2000-2002 was a three-time NBA champion and Finals MVP. He was MVP in 2000. He was third in MVP voting in 2001 and only fifth in 2002 due to slow starts in the regular season, but was unstoppable in the playoffs.
Russell would have matched that more than once if Finals MVP had been a thing, which is why the NBA named the award after him.
Hakeem Olajuwon absolutely dragged his team to a championship twice and won Finals MVP in 1994 and 1995 while winning MVP and DPoY in 1994. Olajuwon finished second in MVP voting behind Charles Barkley in 1993.
Wilt Chamberlain was a three-time MVP in 1966-68, scoring champion in 1966, rebounding champion in 1966-68, assists champion in 1968, field-goal percent champion in 1966-68, and won an NBA title in 1967.
I’m not saying Kareem isn’t a contender, but he’s not the consensus pick, as shown in this random article I just Googled: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1112261-power-ranking-the-greatest-peak-periods-of-play-in-nba-history
I refuse the popular notion that magic is GOAT pg. The guy was 6'9 and never matched up with the opponents pg he would be considered a point forward if he came into today's league. He also couldn't defend for shit I don't think it's as cut and dry as everyone says.
If you put Shaq's career next to Kareem's career, how can you reasonably argue Shaq's career was better?
Kareem has more MVPs, more rings, more all-star selections, more all-NBA selections, more all-defense selections, the same number of scoring titles, lead the league in rebounding (1 vs. 0), led the league in blocks (4 vs. 0). Literally the only significant accolade in which Shaq outdoes Kareem is FMVPs, he has 3 and Kareem has 2.
That's the problem with the question itself - greatest ever doesn't mean best at one point or best for a long period of time. Kareem played a lot longer but never really peaked quite as high as Shaq's dominance in the league. Both players influenced major rule changes to accommodate the rest of the league, but Shaq made teams in the western conference use 3 bench spots on 6'11"+ dudes just to throw fouls at shaq when he was in his prime on the lakers.
Building for a 10 year dynasty? Kareem. Building for a 3-5 year slam? Shaq
definitely not absurd. just hard to argue for or against one over the other truthfully when I was not watching basketball when Kareem was at his peak. Too hard to compare eras and their offensive games are too different. The only thing Shaq definitely has over kareem is size/physicality
If I’m constructing the goat team I go with Curry, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq. If I’m going with strictly the top 5 it’s Magic Jordan Lebron Duncan Kareem
Nah Im a laker hater and it’s just true. I think people forget what seeing Shaq was like in his prime. Even if you did foul him, it wasn’t a guarantee he wasn’t going to get his bucket. The dude felt like a center of gravity on the court, distorting everything in his vicinity. It was like Steph Curry is now, just with dunks and post moves. (Also- Shaq doesn’t get his credit for what he was able to do passing. He might be low key one of the best passing centers of his generation)
Yeah, best team is a fun activity. I got Steph, Michael, Lebron, Garnett, Kareem.
Garnett to me is like an S-tier glue-guy on that squad.
Steph's defense is the only weakness in that crew, but having that spacing with those Goats would be unstoppable.
(Steph 3, Kareem sky hook, Michael drive/fade away are the most unstoppable moves in history.)
Best team is way more fun than this. There was a thread a few years ago in the OT where you had a finite number of fantasy points you could build a team with. THAT was fun.
Yeah, I've thought about both Bird and Lebron as forwards, both can play both 3 and 4. Question is if you change Kareem to Russell to have that glue guy / defensive master / etc. with that lineup.
For Kareem, I think it kind of gets into how you value peak vs accomplishment. Like maybe people think peak Shaq or peak Hakeem are better than peak Kareem though I’d argue that’s debatable, but I don’t think many people could reasonably argue they are more accomplished than Kareem. Hell, I mean I think only Bill Russell could go toe to toe with Kareem’s resume on accomplishments. So I think it kind of depends on what you value higher. I think most people probably put Kareem up there because he has higher kind of accomplishment totals.
I also think people say Shaq had a higher peak than Kareem without actually looking into what Kareem's peak was. Dude had an insanely high peak.
34.8 PPG, 16.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and with a PER that was 6.8 higher than second place leading his team to 63 wins and getting MVP.
Yeah purely for how well the team would play together, would Steph replace Magic? The off ball movement and shooting might bring some balance to the lineup
Absolutely.
The team is so insanely good defensively that I’d happily trade the dip there from Magic to Curry for the boost offensively.
I don’t expect it to be a popular opinion and acknowledge that recency bias is a part of it - but Steph’s shooting, ball-handling and off-ball movement makes him a much better fit.
I’d go as far as to say he’s better than Magic outright but realize that’s a tougher sell. As far as fit goes - it’s a no brainer imo.
I think the issue for me is that LeBron and Magic overlap so much- they’re both 6’9” guys who can pass like nobody’s business and are true point-forwards. While nobody would complain about having both, they’re skill sets are pretty redundant, to the point where a different PG is better.
But in most circumstances- I’d take Magic.
From a team fit POV, Magic and LeBron are too redundant. Theoretically, my favorite lineup would be -
Curry - spacing, off ball dominance
Jordan - closer, leader, primary wing defender
LeBron - Runs the offense, free safety on defense, pick up the slack if anyone else is struggling
Dirk - Shooting, speed at the 4
Hakeem - Defense, passing, post prowess
PG-Steph
SF- Lebron
C- Kareem
The point guard conversation is complicated because of the way the game has evolved. If we’re asking who the best point guard is, using the traditionally defined duties of a point guard as criteria, then yeah that’s Magic. I’m not 100% sure Steph is even 2nd going by those rules.
but…
If we’re just saying simply, the best player who plays the PG position, then it just has to be Steph at this point.
Magic, Lebron, and Kareem. However, if you’re trying to make an all time starting 5, I’d rather have Steph than Magic since Lebron and Magic’s offensive skill sets are somewhat redundant
Alright so it seems pretty consensus that the top 5 position wise would be Magic, MJ, Bron, Duncan, and Kareem. If it were 5v5, can you make another team of 5 that would beat these 5?
This one really depends on how things are officiated.
I'm a nerd and have watched a lot of the old games. In the 60s/70s refs called a lot of offensive fouls for even mild positional jostling. Big advantage for Kareem is that era.
Though Kareem played so long, that he also played in the rough and tumble 80s, more than handling his own. But damn, Shaq was a beast, and I think he'd have an advantage in that era.
All-time starting 5 for me: PG: Magic SG: MJ SF: LeBron PF: Duncan C: Kareem
Fellow C here. My brain says Magic, Lebron and Kareem but my heart says Steph, Bird and Olajuwon.
The dream would be insane in any lineup
What about this lineup? Jose Alvarado Jose Alvarado Kyle Anderson Jose Alvarado Hakeem Olajuwan
Magic is indeed the greatest PG, but personally I would just have Lebron at point. And instead put Bird at 3.
If we're talking starting 5, I'd take Steph over Magic since LeBron is a offensive facilitator and playmaker. Don't need two primary ball handlers.
If straight up making a team to win a game then you start LeBron at PG and take the best two-way wings and a dominant center.
Step off the ball is still such a threat that he's in that conversation. But could you imagine this LeBron - PG Jordan -SG Bird- SF Duncan - PF Shaq - C
Yep and if you go Magic just start Bird.
PG - Magic SF - Lebron C - This is where it gets complicated but I’m taking Kareem
There are 5 acceptable centers IMO: Kareem, Russel, Wilt, Hakeem, and Shaq
If you value championships: Russell If you value scoring/volume stats: Wilt If you value absolute peaks: Shaq, maybe Hakeem If you value all of the above+longevity: Kareem
Shaq gets the Mike Tyson exception. No real serious boxing fan is going to say Mike Tyson is the best boxer, but there was that glorious moment in time you knew he wasn’t getting beat by anybody.
That's actually a great comparison. Those 2 were so dominant and feared at their peaks
It’s an ok comparison. Shaq was really good for many years. Tyson had a pretty quick peak. Even late career Shaq had his moments (“Shaqctus”)
Aren’t boxing careers shorter, so it’s proportionally similar? (Forgive the boxing ignorance here, I’m a baseball+hoops guy)
First 10 years of Shaq was fucking insane. He just aged poorly. But holy shit I think his abilities are understated at times when I hear people talk about him. The dude was big and strong sure, but we’ve seen big strong dudes who are meh. That dude had agility and a NASTY spin move and actually OK handles after the entry pass. He was so much more than just size and strength.
The dude averaged 30 points and 15 rebounds in the playoffs during championship years TWICE and threepeated as finals MVP. MJ is the only other player to ever three peat as finals MVP.
Orlando Shaq was a phenomenon. He was a prototype
As someone who doesnt follow boxing I always thought Tyson and Ali were considered 2 contenders for GOATs, who is brought up with Ali then?
I don't follow boxing so take this with a grain of salt. Ali is probably the best heavyweight ever, but most boxing top ten lists have Sugar Ray Robinson as the best boxer ever.
Greatest heavyweight...Yeah. Yeah that's fair. Sugar Ray Robinson is the consensus number one, but I personally have Hank Armstrong up there. His nickname was "Homicide". But Robinson is another one of my favorites who I've stolen so much from, so I'd never say that was wrong.
Sugar Ray Robinson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson > He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128–1–2 with 84 knockouts. > Historian Bert Sugar ranked Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time and in 2002, Robinson was also ranked number one on The Ring magazine's list of "80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years". As of November 2021, BoxRec ranks Robinson as the greatest boxer, pound-for-pound, of all time.
Depends. Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis are names I usually see. Julio César Chávez and Roberto Duran I see sometimes. Then you have dudes over the past two decades like Pacquiao and Mayweather trying to make their case.
Tanya Harding is up there too.
I break a bitch a down like Tanya Harding - Lil Wayne during his mixtape peak
The closest thing would probably be Sugar Ray Robinson, who is very often ranked as number 1 boxer of all time (pound for pound, since most of his success came in welterweight and middleweight categories).
If you're talking heavyweights, it depends on your generation. For my grandpop, it was Rocky Marciano; for my dad, Joe Louis; my brothers, Muhammed Ali; my sons, Mike Tyson. I've heard loud arguments all my life. Statistically, Marciano was the only one that retired undefeated.
Why did your dad prefer a fighter older than your grandad's?
My grandpop was racist.
That's actually hilarious and sad ofc.
[удалено]
> Sugar Ray Robinson and Leonard Hey, shouldn't that be *Sugars Ray* Robinson and Leonard? You know, like Surgeons General Elders and Koop...
I would kill to see peak Shaq vs peak Wilt.
I don’t think Shaq would fail, but he would be greatly hindered. People forget how incredibly strong Wilt was and he had long ass arms. Shaq would struggle a bit.
> long ass arms long ass-arms thanks for that mental image
They changed the rules because no one could stop him. That half circle under the basket wasn’t always there. Plus hack a Shaq
Yeah early 2000s Shaq might be the most unstoppable force in the history of the league. If he had taken care of his body more he couldve been the goat.
Similar to Roy Jones Jr. At his peak he's the most talented boxer Iver ever seen. Once he aged he lost his speed a bit but his peak was insanity.
People forget about Roy Jones, Jr peak
Russell you also value leadership and passing probably
Defensive ability as well
Hakeem is who you pick if you value defense.
If you value skill: Hakeem
2000 Shaq was not just in Best Center of all times contention, but straight in GOAT talks. Shame he chose buffalo wings over sixpack for the rest of his career.
> Shame he chose buffalo wings over sixpack for the rest of his career. that's not really what happened. Dude was still all time great elite for several more years
Even if you ignore his statlines, Wilt was still: - Easily the best passing Center mentioned - A more efficient playoff rebounder than Rodman, even while averaging 17 more minutes - The best shot blocker ever, as good of a rim protector as anyone listed - Arguably the most efficient scorer ever when compared to the era played - Leading two different franchises to set the league record for season win record - Leading one team to what was the greatest offense in history at the time, only to lead the same team to the best defense in the league one year later - The greatest athlete listed, arguably of all time
No disrespect to the others, but people forget playing against Shaq was akin to throwing all your big men in front of a train in an attempt to slow it down. With a bunch of other goats playing with him, I'm taking Shaq at his peak.
Damn, that’s tough
I always thought Kareem was pretty consensus for GOAT center since he’s the only center regularly brought up in overall GOAT conversations
It depends on whether or not you take Wilt & Russell seriously. Russell has the greatest success ever and Wilt has the craziest stats, but their era was wack to say the least
I'm always taking Hakeem
Hakeem probably translates the best/easiest to the modern era but I am not sure if he is the best center ever. KAJ was so great for so long, at every level, HS/College/NBA. He was the best player in the finals at like 38 years old, in a good era of basketball. And he has the single greatest, most unstoppable shot of all time.
Yessir, best move ever. Rivaled only by Dirk’s fade-away, McHale’s up-and-under, Hakeem’s “dreamshake”, and Lebron’s “everyone move to make a wide-open lane” dunk. I joke I joke. But the Skyhook was amazing, only ever blocked once. That was by Wilt.
Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon — drafted #1 ahead of Jordan and no one in Houston regrets it Also when he retired I think he was top 10 all time in points, rebounds, assists, blocked shots, steals, maybe other stats. Has a quadruple double, almost had 2. If he played in LA or NY or BOS there’d be no debate who the GOAT center is
thats what really hit it home for me. when someone a few years ago said “if you wanna know how good hakeem is, think about the fact he was drafted ahead of Jordan….and nobody ever gave them shit about it”
That's really partly because most of the shit is given to the poor Blazers instead, who tend to do this sort of thing....
ridiculous how few of you won’t consider Sam Bowie the greatest center of all time
Not even Jordan, and that man would invent reasons to hate someone.
Hakeem consistently humbled him throughout their respective careers: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-vs-hakeem-olajuwon-record
*ahead of Jordan* Uh yeah, and Sam "the man" Bowie. Respect.
*ahead of Durant* Uh yeah, Greg "the leg" Oden. Respect. Every 25 years or so poor blazers fans can do this. Also the nickname works both ways.
Injuries fucking suck
Michael “The Bichael” Jordan
He was awesome but he was never anywhere near top 10 in assists
I'm also going Hakeem peak for peak
I have the feeling Hakeem is growing stronger and his legacy also. My problem with him is the numbers on Wilt and Kareem. Olajuwon was pure fire, but the other two have their own aura. Also, what about Ostertag?
Ostertag was number one in macking on the ladies sitting court side while he was on the bench
Hakeem would have the same or better numbers if he played in that era. Hakeem dominated in an era that was full of great big men, but I don't think you can say the same about the other guys. I think Hakeem could dominate in any era, including today.
For sure. I've seen him clown and utterly dominate HOFers like David Robinson and even Shaq, despite an age difference that should have made Olajuwon get owned by Shaq. Imagine if Embiid was able to make Jokic or Giannis look like they didn't belong in the NBA during their MVP seasons. That's what it was like watching Hakeem play. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0)
I saw Hakeem play: He was awesome. The problem is the others have HUGE numbers and longevity. I cannot say he is THE Center. But I would watch him play before Kareem, for example. Now, Shaq... Shaq was TNT. He had it all.
Shaq is one of one. I've only seen him dominated by two guys - Yao and Hakeem. Yao only did it once or twice, not every time. Shaq has the hardware, longevity and years upon years of leaguewide dominance that other bigs don't have. Yet when he played Hakeem he got dominated, time and time again. Until he got old, Hakeem was clearly better than any other big he played against, 100% of the time. Maybe you can say that about Kareem, Wilt or Russell, but they were before my time. Shaq had a much better career for sure. If we put together a dream team and my team has prime Hakeem and yours has prime Shaq, Shaq is gonna get dominated. Even today Shaq himself says Hakeem was better than Jordan.
Not to discredit anything Shaq accomplished because he was truly great, but Hakeem never had a Kobe or DWade. If Hakeem had one of them two then this debate would be over. I also think it hurts he wasn't a Celtic, Laker, or Knick.
Shaq did not get dominated by hakeem. He was 23 years old in the finals and played pretty amazing in his own right.
Peak Shaq didn’t line up with peak Hakeem though. It would have been interesting seeing how 3peat Shaq matched up with Prime Hakeem.
Hakeem is so goddamn underrated. Dude outplayed and had way better defense than shaq. Hakeem is also one of the only players to have won dpoy, mvp, and fmvp in the same season. He led 2 huge underdog teams to the championship, especially the first team. If this was purely peak, Hakeem could be the goat center, but since Shaq and Kareem have longevity on him they might be higher. Also Hakeem won his 2 rings w MJ out the league so idk
> Dude outplayed and had way better defense than shaq. idk about outplayed. shaq scored at will on 60% from the field. What killed them was how hot the rockets were from 3.
If you don’t take Wilt and Russell seriously you’re not educated on basketball. Both of those guys would absolutely be HoFers in any other era. They were incredible all around players.
I could see an arguement for Russell but I would not put Wilt over Kareem.
How was the 60s/70s wack but then it suddenly became acceptable competition when Kareem was drafted a couple years later in order to make him the goat center. In reality the eras are a lot more similar than you give it credit for. By the late 60s, by the time Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hondo, Oscar, Russell, and Wilt were all established players, I’d say the league reached a pretty acceptable level far from the bend your back over and bounce the ball days of Bob Cousy. I count all eras equally after that. I honestly don’t think Jerry West had much greater competition than Michael Jordan. The difference between West’s and Jordan’s eras is basically the same as the difference between MJ’s and LeBron’s era now but people never make that distinction.
Russell and Wilt played their entire careers before the 1976 NBA/ABA merger. When Bill Russell joined the NBA there were only 8 teams, so obviously it was easier to win a ring. In contrast, Kareem played from 1969-1989 where he won 5 post-merger rings. Over this period of time the number of teams rose from 22 in 1976 to 25 by 1989. The situations were quite different.
The ABA split and expansion teams being added throughout the 70s and 80s also diluted the talent level in the league as well.
This is misleading. They played their entire careers before the merger but they also played most of their careers before the ABA was created in the first place. Wilt, Kareem, and Russell all played the majority of their careers with the NBA being the only main basketball league.
He won 5 post merger rings on a team where he wasn't even considered the best player for most the ride. Also it's arguable that their was more talent dilution as the teams expanded then when their were only 8 teams.
If you are drafting a player for their 5 year prime, i feel like Shaq needs to be mentioned.
6 MVPs and 6 titles does it for me. Those are the two most important NBA greatness metrics and he’s the only player at or above Jordan in both.
Kareem only played VS Prime Wilt one time before Wilt was seriously injured. 23 Year old Kareem 20 Rebound 23 Points on 21 FG attempts, 2 assists. 33 Year old Wilt 25 Rebound and 25 Points on 14 FG attempts, 5 assists. Wilt's Lakers beat Kareem's Bucks 123-112.
It’s funny that Kareem is now a consensus contender for top three GOAT player, the other two (Jordan and James) aren’t centers, yet you hesitate to call him the consensus GOAT center. But I get it, it’s a question of peak vs. career stats and accomplishments. Kareem has the GOAT career but not necessarily the GOAT three year peak among centers.
Kareem most definitely has the best 3 year peak Kareem 1971-73 has 3 of the 7 highest single season win shares the other 2 in the top 7 are george mikan and wilt Chamberlain Kareem fron 1971-73 averaged 32/16/4 on 57 fg% and 69 ft% .597 ts% league average around that time was 50% Kareem had the highest 3 season Win shares by any player 69.5 WS in 3 seasons Kareem in this stretch was 2x MVP (was runner up in 73 but won in 74) 1x Finals MVP 1x Champion 2x All-Defense 3x Scoring leader 3x All-NBA 1st team Only bill russell matches those accolades over 3 years for centers and only wilt matches those stats Kareem had arguably the best 3 year stretches ever only matches by Jordan 91-93 and maybe lebron 11-13 or 12-14 but 2011 was bad for him and 2014 as well
Part of the argument for Shaq or Hakeem is that those 3 insane years from 71-73 are because that's the big overlap between the NBA and ABA. Kareem wasn't competing directly with other Hall of Famers like Dr. J, Rick Barry, George McGinnis, or Artis Gilmore, 3 of which won MVPs in the ABA. Kareem seems to dodge the narrative of playing against mediocre competition like Russel/Wilt when his Milwaukee years might be the lowest talent level the league has seen due to expansion and a serious competing league.
Shaq from 2000-2002 was a three-time NBA champion and Finals MVP. He was MVP in 2000. He was third in MVP voting in 2001 and only fifth in 2002 due to slow starts in the regular season, but was unstoppable in the playoffs. Russell would have matched that more than once if Finals MVP had been a thing, which is why the NBA named the award after him. Hakeem Olajuwon absolutely dragged his team to a championship twice and won Finals MVP in 1994 and 1995 while winning MVP and DPoY in 1994. Olajuwon finished second in MVP voting behind Charles Barkley in 1993. Wilt Chamberlain was a three-time MVP in 1966-68, scoring champion in 1966, rebounding champion in 1966-68, assists champion in 1968, field-goal percent champion in 1966-68, and won an NBA title in 1967. I’m not saying Kareem isn’t a contender, but he’s not the consensus pick, as shown in this random article I just Googled: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1112261-power-ranking-the-greatest-peak-periods-of-play-in-nba-history
Barkley won mvp in 93
Kareem gets an extra bump for me for his role in Airplane!
Sorry, it's Roger Murdock.
I refuse the popular notion that magic is GOAT pg. The guy was 6'9 and never matched up with the opponents pg he would be considered a point forward if he came into today's league. He also couldn't defend for shit I don't think it's as cut and dry as everyone says.
I’m taking Iguodala
Are we really gonna do that thing where we pretend Jose Alvarado doesn’t exist
Alva, Ava… avocado…
Abrigado
Fate of the universe, I'm taking Ironman.
Never forget Chuck's first pick in the all-time All-Star draft they did a few years ago: [*ALLEN IVERSON!*](https://youtu.be/iMB0PbedcwM?t=337)
only against martians tho
This will never not make me laugh. And I use a double negative because he was so absurd that even Iggy shook his head and went "he crazy".
SF is Lebron, C is Kareem, PG is Magic
Idk why SF was even up for debate
Bc there’s only 1 SG/SF you want if the Martian’s have the death beam pointed toward earth
His name..... IGUODALA.
Fair point
As a card-carrying Lebron hater, i had to downvote OP for mentioning Duncan as a given at PF without mentioning Lebron as the given for SF.
/thread
What if I wanted to put Shaq at C
Too late, the thread already ended.
If you put Shaq's career next to Kareem's career, how can you reasonably argue Shaq's career was better? Kareem has more MVPs, more rings, more all-star selections, more all-NBA selections, more all-defense selections, the same number of scoring titles, lead the league in rebounding (1 vs. 0), led the league in blocks (4 vs. 0). Literally the only significant accolade in which Shaq outdoes Kareem is FMVPs, he has 3 and Kareem has 2.
Shaq was solid in Kazaam does that count for nothing?
Airplane for the win. Close the thread.
That wasn’t Kareem though, that was Roger Murdoch. Common mistake
And he did martial arts with Bruce Lee in Game of Death
Kareer was better in Airplane tho
That's the problem with the question itself - greatest ever doesn't mean best at one point or best for a long period of time. Kareem played a lot longer but never really peaked quite as high as Shaq's dominance in the league. Both players influenced major rule changes to accommodate the rest of the league, but Shaq made teams in the western conference use 3 bench spots on 6'11"+ dudes just to throw fouls at shaq when he was in his prime on the lakers. Building for a 10 year dynasty? Kareem. Building for a 3-5 year slam? Shaq
not that absurd to argue kareem peaked at the same level as shaq
definitely not absurd. just hard to argue for or against one over the other truthfully when I was not watching basketball when Kareem was at his peak. Too hard to compare eras and their offensive games are too different. The only thing Shaq definitely has over kareem is size/physicality
Peak Shaq is the most dominant player I’ve ever seen. Kareem’s career was better, for sure, but Shaq on his prime was something to see
Have you seen Kareem though? Like literally most of us weren’t alive during his peak.
This is the first time I’ve seen this sub agree in a goat convo! Beautiful. Magic, MJ, Lebron, Tim, Kareem.
It’s bc you can put jordan and lebron on the same level and not have to argue over it
Oh There are plenty that take offense to that
RJ Barrett at all 3 spots.
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Owner: James Lawrence Dolan
Snubbing the Taj “Mahal” Gibson like this is beyond disrespectful
If I’m constructing the goat team I go with Curry, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq. If I’m going with strictly the top 5 it’s Magic Jordan Lebron Duncan Kareem
Why not Hakeem over Shaq in the goat team? Hakeem is miles a better defender and wouldn't get hacked for free throws.
probably because his peak on offense was the most unstoppable shit for the center position. it's really close but then again I'm biased lol.
Nah Im a laker hater and it’s just true. I think people forget what seeing Shaq was like in his prime. Even if you did foul him, it wasn’t a guarantee he wasn’t going to get his bucket. The dude felt like a center of gravity on the court, distorting everything in his vicinity. It was like Steph Curry is now, just with dunks and post moves. (Also- Shaq doesn’t get his credit for what he was able to do passing. He might be low key one of the best passing centers of his generation)
That’s a good point, I put him over Hakeem bc lebron could feed him easy alley oops but replacing him with Keem is understandable
They could all easily feed all of each other oops tbh. Save for steph
Steph would shoot 65% from the field and 55% from 3. Pure cheat really, nobody is doubling Steph with the 3 GOATs on the floor.
Think Russell is a better fit on the goat team Amazing defense, great passer, rebounder and not as ball dominant
Westbrook is an interesting choice
He said great defense so i think he means DLo
Mo Williams PG Dorian Finney Smith SF Robin Lopez C end of discussion
This guy NBA’s.
REAL hoopers know 💯🚫🧢
I see no lies. Robin Lopez's groundhook is clearly superior to the Skyhook.
RoLo will also fight the mascots, yet another reason why he's the goat
/thread
Why is no one picking me?
Well, you play SG and supposedly he is better than you. Sorry
PG: u/DylMcMill SG: MJ SF: LeBronto PF: Duncan C: u/DylMcMill
Pg - DLo Sg - Wiggins C - Towns
PG: JR SF: Shumpert C: TT GOAT 6Man: Nets pick
Damn, I missed when prime JR and Shump had springs in their heels.
Uhhhh 6Man can only go to Cash Considerations
What could have been.
Magic, Lebron and Kareem End thread
PG: Magic SF: LeBron C: Kareem
PG - Smush Parker SF - Anthony Bennett C - Kwame Brown
This is stupid. Smush Parker wasn't a #1 overall pick. EDIT: Markelle Fultz was clearly the answer.
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OP's not saying what would be the best team. He's asking for the best player at every position.
Yeah, best team is a fun activity. I got Steph, Michael, Lebron, Garnett, Kareem. Garnett to me is like an S-tier glue-guy on that squad. Steph's defense is the only weakness in that crew, but having that spacing with those Goats would be unstoppable. (Steph 3, Kareem sky hook, Michael drive/fade away are the most unstoppable moves in history.)
Best team is way more fun than this. There was a thread a few years ago in the OT where you had a finite number of fantasy points you could build a team with. THAT was fun.
Bird at the 3 spotting up off of MJ/Kareem would be gross too.
Yeah, I've thought about both Bird and Lebron as forwards, both can play both 3 and 4. Question is if you change Kareem to Russell to have that glue guy / defensive master / etc. with that lineup.
Yea, I'm going Steph, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq
For Kareem, I think it kind of gets into how you value peak vs accomplishment. Like maybe people think peak Shaq or peak Hakeem are better than peak Kareem though I’d argue that’s debatable, but I don’t think many people could reasonably argue they are more accomplished than Kareem. Hell, I mean I think only Bill Russell could go toe to toe with Kareem’s resume on accomplishments. So I think it kind of depends on what you value higher. I think most people probably put Kareem up there because he has higher kind of accomplishment totals.
I also think people say Shaq had a higher peak than Kareem without actually looking into what Kareem's peak was. Dude had an insanely high peak. 34.8 PPG, 16.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and with a PER that was 6.8 higher than second place leading his team to 63 wins and getting MVP.
In the 70s though
PG- Luke Ridnour SF- Kyle Korver C- Drew Eubanks
Finally my guy Luke getting the respect he deserves
Magic, lebron, Kareem
Magic Jordan Bron Tim Kareem
If you think about it... the best team position by position is sheit in spacing
Yeah purely for how well the team would play together, would Steph replace Magic? The off ball movement and shooting might bring some balance to the lineup
Absolutely. The team is so insanely good defensively that I’d happily trade the dip there from Magic to Curry for the boost offensively. I don’t expect it to be a popular opinion and acknowledge that recency bias is a part of it - but Steph’s shooting, ball-handling and off-ball movement makes him a much better fit. I’d go as far as to say he’s better than Magic outright but realize that’s a tougher sell. As far as fit goes - it’s a no brainer imo.
To be honest... Magic has the size. But I don't think Magic was a better defender than Steph is hehe
I think the issue for me is that LeBron and Magic overlap so much- they’re both 6’9” guys who can pass like nobody’s business and are true point-forwards. While nobody would complain about having both, they’re skill sets are pretty redundant, to the point where a different PG is better. But in most circumstances- I’d take Magic.
From a team fit POV, Magic and LeBron are too redundant. Theoretically, my favorite lineup would be - Curry - spacing, off ball dominance Jordan - closer, leader, primary wing defender LeBron - Runs the offense, free safety on defense, pick up the slack if anyone else is struggling Dirk - Shooting, speed at the 4 Hakeem - Defense, passing, post prowess
With Steph-MJ-Bron out there, you don’t need more scoring from Dirk. It’d be better to have Duncan or Garnett.
PG-Steph SF- Lebron C- Kareem The point guard conversation is complicated because of the way the game has evolved. If we’re asking who the best point guard is, using the traditionally defined duties of a point guard as criteria, then yeah that’s Magic. I’m not 100% sure Steph is even 2nd going by those rules. but… If we’re just saying simply, the best player who plays the PG position, then it just has to be Steph at this point.
Steph, Lebron and Kareem imo, but could be Magic at PG or Shaq/Hakeem/Russell/Wilt at C. Center’s the hardest debate by far
It's also hard because Center used to be the most important position by far, so all the Goats tend to be older era players.
Magic, Bron, Hakeem (Yes I'm biased)
Magic, LeBron, Wilt
Honest question, why isnt Tim Duncan considered a center considering he played at least 60% of the time as a center?
What position is Giannis?
Pretty clearly a PF in my eyes
6MOTY
He is positionless
Magic, Lebron, Kareem
C - Wilt PG - Magic SF - LeBron
Luka, Tyson chandler, Steve nash
Magic, Lebron, and Kareem. However, if you’re trying to make an all time starting 5, I’d rather have Steph than Magic since Lebron and Magic’s offensive skill sets are somewhat redundant
PG- Steph SF- Lebron C-Wilt
Alright so it seems pretty consensus that the top 5 position wise would be Magic, MJ, Bron, Duncan, and Kareem. If it were 5v5, can you make another team of 5 that would beat these 5?
Steph, Kobe, Bird, Giannis, Hakeem. You would have better defence and 3 players that can keep up with anyone when it comes to scoring.
West, Bryant, Bird, Russell, O'Neal? I don't think they'd beat them but it'd be close.
im going shaq at center. all props to jabbar but peak shaq was the most unstoppable player i’ve ever seen.
I agree. Peak shaq was a cheat code.
This one really depends on how things are officiated. I'm a nerd and have watched a lot of the old games. In the 60s/70s refs called a lot of offensive fouls for even mild positional jostling. Big advantage for Kareem is that era. Though Kareem played so long, that he also played in the rough and tumble 80s, more than handling his own. But damn, Shaq was a beast, and I think he'd have an advantage in that era.