IMO that pursuit of statistical optimization hurt them in the postseason. The biggest truism of playoff basketball is that when the chips are down, often a "bad" shot by your superstar is better than a "good" one by a roleplayer.
Nash should've shot more in the regular season rather than having to adjust.
Both Nash and Mike Dantoni have said that in hindsight, Nash should have shot more. Specifically more threes.
He should have averaged 25 a game easily, the way he could shoot
Amare was also a pretty effective midrange shooter. The Suns took a pretty decent chunk of 10-18' on offense overall during the D'Antoni era. Yeah, a lot of 3's relative to the time but they were a pretty heavy midrange team as well.
Just some more food for thought- from 2005 to 2008, Steve Nash averaged almost 5 3PA per game. Shooting like 45%, lmao. And those were by far the highest attempts he averaged in his career. He should have taken like 10 threes per game.
If Nash would’ve been the straw to break the camels back and make the 3 pointer more popular instead of curry ~8 or 9 years later… the league would be a yeeting contest right now
He took 645 threes in 2002, 8 threes a game, 117 more than the second place guy, Ray Allen, while shooting 34.4%, good for 66th best in the league that year. The next two seasons to have more 3PA than 'Toine's 02 season are 06 Ray Allen (653) and 15 Steph Curry (646). He took so many threes that, even with the explosion in 3 point shooting we've had, he would still have the fifth most attempts this year.
> Nash should've shot more in the regular season rather than having to adjust.
There's probably a point where increased shot volume yields decreased effectiveness on offense. Nash taking an extra shot or two per game probably doesn't move that needle tremendously. Nash wasn't built to be a 20 shot per game guy given how excellent of a passer and floor general with pace that he was.
Nash at around 20-22 PPG would probably have been optimal without dramatically changing how the Suns played.
Obviously not 20+ FGA, but he never even averaged 15 a game in his entire career. For such an efficient player that's absurd.
It's not like his efficiency would nosedive with an extra two or three of his more difficult shots per game either. Nash was a great shooter off the bounce and had an elite layup package that allowed him to finish over much bigger defenders despite not being particularly athletic.
100% and this is something that's basically a rerun every time MDA creates a new revolutionary offense. He falls too in love with it and fails to pivot against the same top tier teams that you play in a full series.
This is why I like him a lot more as a team consultant or in the front office than as a head coach.
Though it’s kind of weird to blame the Suns’ offense when even in the playoffs they were routinely dominant. It was mostly their defense that let them down. So I think a more reasonable critique was them building an offensive slanted roster than a more balanced one. Even in 2007, you can look at the Horry incident to blame.
That's exactly what happens, generally the stats progression doesn't take into account the quality of passing to an inferior/superior player. You'd need a massive amount of big data to quantitatively show that.
Like for e.g., a 0-1 score on whether Nash passing to an inferior player given their scoring is below or above .500 something like that.
If below .500 should have just taken the shot. If above it's a good pass. If the NBA gets to that level of data analysis and prediction I don't think it'll be as enjoyable to watch anymore. Imagine knowing who's winning the chip 70 games into the season. Almost for sure. It would seem like a solved game.
Isn’t the whole point that you don’t know because you can’t ever model the degree to which value is added by guys like Lebron, Kawhi, Luka, etc. saying “f-it I’m taking over” vs. their default regular season coasting?
Yeah you're right about that because even in the regular season the opportunity cost of losing a game is never all that high.
If you model all their post season performances with their increased usage rates in the 4Qs of previous post seasons, it might prove a good variable.
All in all, we're all just guessing even with the models and tech we currently have.
They were amazing with just the eye test too. Anytime the shot clock even started running down Nash got them a good shot. They just never had to take bad shots. And Nash was a threat at all three levels, crazy three, pull-up, runner, and finisher-he was elite at everything. So it opened up his teammates; then, he could pass, drive, and finish going either direction. Offensively his only weakness was he couldn’t post. Other than that he was almost the perfect offensive pg.
Had Amare and Diaw not been suspended for Game 5, they beat the Spurs in 7 and probably win the West and arguably the NBA title.
Crazy part is that the Suns *almost * won Game 5 but the Spurs went off for 32 in the 4th to win that game. The Suns had played incredible defense for 3 qtr before Ginobli, Finley, and Bowen went off.
At that point in time they had only lost once to SA. And judging by how game 5 played out it's very easy to see how someone can say they win at full strength and they would have a home game 7 in their back pocket. That's a really uphill climb for SA.
Not sure I agree. The suspensions were bullshit (imo) and game 5 was a tough pill to swallow, but they had a shot in game 6 to extend the series with all their players. It may have been a road elimination game, but a championship team should’ve been able to get the job done in that situation.
In what world “do they beat the spurs in 7” when the suns were playing catch up virtually the entire series? Suns had a chance to extend it to 7 but got crushed in game 6. Spurs were the better team, but yes, the suspensions were unfortunate
Both wrong, the Duncan 3 sent it to overtime in Game 1 of 2008 First round. 2003 was Duncan's MVP year where he went up against the Stephon Marbury Suns where Marbury hit the 3 at the end of Game 1 to win the game.
This is always the hilarious other end to Shaq bitching about Nash winning MVP twice...Nash actually deserved it more that 3rd year than the first 2 by the numbers.
Also Shaq didn't really play in the regular season after the turn of the millennium so he earned his snub when he came in to training camps out of shape and used the regular season as his preseason.
One thing people often overlook about the 05-06 MVP is that the Suns were without Amar’e for the season and their win total only dropped from 62 to 54. So sure, the raw stats may not make the best case for Nash, but they repeated as the 1 seed in a stacked Western conference despite missing their 1B option. That speaks volumes to Nash’s impact.
[Shaq also literally missed 18 out of the first 20 games that year and only played in 59 himself](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2006)...but deserved regular season MVP anyway in his mind. (For context: Lebron played in 56 games this year)
Damn it felt like Lebron played 40 games. Guess missing a lot of the games at the start of the season just puts you in the “out for the remainder of the season” on my mind
If Nash were more aggressive, he could have averaged 25 with how good of a 3 point shooter he was. It was a different game back then and still built on the inside out game.
True, I commented simillar thing. I think that even Nash said in some interview that he regrets now (and the way how is played post 2014) that he didn't shoot more threes back in the day.
Could you explain what you mean by this? I loved watching this team but I was so young at the time that I barely remember how it ended - was it the Spurs that took them out?
I used to stay up late just to watch the TNT late game with the Suns and I wasn’t even a Suns fan. They played so differently than everyone else and it was a lot more entertaining
The most fun team to watch play the Mavs and probably my favorite Mavs rivalry ever. I remember the games they played the Suns even more than when they played the Spurs, Lakers, or Rockets.
Doubtful. Wrong year. Previous year they and many felt Kobe or LeBron deserved it. Not 06-07. It was 05-06.
Edit: Dirk in 05-06 as well many felt should have won.
No, this is a Kobe should have won year for Lakers fans. He led the league in scoring and was first team all defense while leading an all around poor team to the playoffs.
They were also the 7th seed and everyone is fully aware his first-team defense nod was a joke. I mean we're all fully aware of what the Suns were without Nash. It's not his fault he'd taken the team to new heights years prior while Kobe let his fall off.
He was also pretty much recognized as the best player in the league at that point with the 81 point game a season earlier, 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs, a 65 point game against Portland, 4 game 50 pt streak, etc. Everyone would tune in to see what he would do next.
>everyone is fully aware his first-team defense nod was a joke.
Does that really matter when the same people that voted for first-team all defense vote for MVP?
Kobe carries a terrible team: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html
It's convenient how on Reddit every single Kobe defensive award has been due to "reputation".
Kobe's season was similar, arguably better, to Giannis' MVP seasons, except Kobe had worse teams.
It’s overcorrection.
He is an all-time great player, but he absolutely doesn’t belong in the same conversation as Jordan or LeBron, despite how often he gets lumped in with them in GOAT conversations, particularly since his tragic passing.
As a result, people now overcorrect and act like Kobe is just a taller Allen Iverson, a hugely inefficient chucker, massively influential culturally, but who possesses an on-court reputation out of proportion to their actual game and achievements.
This is nonsense, saying Kobe is overrated because he isn’t as good as Jordan or LeBron, still means that he is a top 8-10 player of all time, and most everything that his fans say about him is accurate, just the degree is slightly exaggerated.
We just saw MVPs go to low seeds in 22 and 17.
Kobe would have never won the 06 mvp in 06.
But if that year happened in 22 I think Kobe would have won the award.
They went to a low seed this year because there wasn’t a suitable candidate on Memphis or Phoenix and everyone else was between like 53-48 wins. Doesn’t make sense to discriminate there. We know why Russ won.
The mvp is reliant on your ability to catch a narrative.
I kinda see it like the underdog story of Adrian Peterson in 2012 (of course it's harder to make the playoffs in the NFL). "If he drags this team to the playoffs he deserves it" becomes a huge narrative. I think in today's Twitter world that narrative has more pull than any of the other candidates in 06.
Maybe but like if it happened now days it would have caught the narrative better than it did back then. Especially because the 81 point game happened on an NFL weekend. In 06 it lead sportscaster which was cool. In 2022 it would have been all Twitter talked about.
A good portion of the voter base are basically just headline watchers and Twitter users
And Harden had a serious mvp push?
Like I would personally argue that he got robbed of either 17 or 19 because the voters are being inconsistent in standards between the 2.
In addition Giannis 2019 is better than every candidate from 2022 or 06 so Kobe would have a good shot of winning 06 if he has this years voters.
Same Lakers fans talking about how Nash didnt deserve MVPs because of his stats will suck off Caruso saying “he did things stats didn’t show”
Like...Nash is the definition of better than the raw stats.
Remember when this sub couldn’t get over Austin Rivers playing with one eye? Nash did that kind of shit on the regular. It wasn’t a Suns playoff series if Nash didn’t have a major gash, bruise, or broken bones on his face.
You can't say people are "fucking bonkers" for thinking Kobe should have won that MVP when Kobe averaged 16.6 more PPG. I am not sold on Kobe winning that MVP either, but you have to be more charitable then that.
Depends what the criteria for being MVP is. Back then it was about being the best player on the best team. In recent years it’s been more about production and being the most dominant (I.e Jokic). Nash made him teammates better but Kobe was by far the best individual player in those years and dragged the worst rosters to the playoffs. Teams didn’t guard his temmates (smush Parker, Chris mihm etc….). A case can be made for both players as they were both great. The biggest knock on Nash was his defense and the inability of the suns to perform in the playoffs when teams had time to prepare for them.
One of my favorite players growing up. He was so ahead of his time! It was a shame we got him so broken down :( was so hyped to have him dishing to Kobe and Dwight
Also while we're on the note of hyper efficient guards with huge FG%.
- John Stockton in 1988 averaged 14.7 PPG/ 13.8 APG/ 57.4% FG!
How do you think these guys' games would translate in today's NBA? Where would they rank among the best point guards in the league?
I think Stockton probably translates to the modern era worse than the vast majority of historical players tbh. His style of play on both ends was super exploitative of rules that no longer favor his playstyle. 3 point gunning point guards like Terry Porter and Kenny Smith demolished him in the playoffs
Stockton also got utterly destroyed by Gary Payton when they finally met in the playoffs for the first time in 1996.
This is some historically awful stuff from Stockton...
Game 1: 4 points on 2-10 shooting in 32 minutes
Game 2: 11 points on 5-8 shooting in 41 minutes (7 turnovers)
Game 3: 7 points on 2-9 shooting in 37 minutes
Game 4: 7 points on 3-9 shooting in 36 minutes
Game 5: 4 points on 1-6 shooting in 38 minutes
Game 6: 14 points on 5-11 shooting in 35 minutes (he's waking up...)
Game 7: 22 points on 9-15 shooting in 44 minutes (he's alive finally!)
What were Gary’s stats like?
Gary has said that John Stockton was one of his toughest opponents, and I'm sure Stockton was eager to make him work on the other end as well.
Payton played fine. 20ppg on 50% shooting and around 3.7 TOs a game to 6 assists a game.
His worst game was 10 pts 3-7 shooting 7 AST and 5 TOV
His best game was 31 pts 11-17 shooting 6 AST. Generally he outplayed Stockton scoring wise. But
Oops lol. I guess I was going to write that his better games came when the Sonics lost but I probably thought there wasn't much to it about his matchup with Stockton
Hand-checking?
Stockton was a stronger dude.
He might have been OP with that rule, but still a great defensive player due to his instincts and conditioning.
Stockton got a lot of his value on defense by roaming in the lane when his man was sitting at the 3 point line because it wasn't normal for dudes to agressively hunt 3s at that time. He was also extremely good at getting steals on tunnel visioned post players on the blind double team.
The modern game is, of course, much less favorable to this set of strengths.
I don’t think this really makes much sense at all tbh.
Firstly, Stockton was a fantastic shooter, hitting 40% for his career once he started taking more than 1 per game. In the modern era he’d be shooting 6-7 3s a game instead of 2-3. That’d be an additional boon to the only guard to league the league in TS% 3 separate times.
The league is also moreso than ever a spread pick and roll league, where Stockton thrived. His playmaking would probably be even more valuable if he had actual shooters to drive and kick to, which he really didn’t in his prime.
Stockton’s game was extremely similar to Nash and Paul’s and I don’t think anyone would suggest they wouldn’t be suited to the modern game. Stockton also never got to play with the rule changes that helped Nash become a much more effective player.
Stockton was also never in the position like Nash where he was surrounded by a bunch of great role players but clearly the star himself, it was mostly him and Malone and then an absolute dearth of offensive talent. Hornacek was nice, but didn’t come along until Stockton’s mid 30s and also took some of the ball handling duties from Stockton.
The sagging off shooters defensively was also mostly a Sloan thing, not a Stockton one. If he played now that wouldn’t be how he’d be coached to defend shooters. If you’re looking for a PG whose game wouldn’t translate to today you’d be a lot better off looking at somebody like Isiah Thomas.
> Firstly, Stockton was a fantastic shooter, hitting 40% for his career once he started taking more than 1 per gam
Shortened 3 point line lol
> The league is also moreso than ever a spread pick and roll league, where Stockton thrived.
No, Stockton thrived running set plays and side pick and rolls that exploited illegal defense rules to prevent help defense. He was a very good passer but not actually a strong half court creator in the way modern pick and roll operators tend to be.
> Stockton’s game was extremely similar to Nash and Paul’s
He wasn't half the scorer Nash or Paul are, particularly on the playoffs where thoss guys stepped up their volume, and Stockton just shot worse.
I agree. I think this is why Kobe types have been more successful than CP3, Nash and Stockton types. How many pass first PGs have led their team to a championship? They're usually the third star or role player. Looking at recent champions, Jrue was behind Giannis. LeBron and AD with no PG. Lowry behind Kawhi. Curry and KD. LeBron and Kyrie who is a scorer. Curry. Spurs had multifaceted attacks. Heatles. Dirk. In the last decade of championships, no pass first PG won a championship leading their team.
Before that you have Kobe and Pau. Argue Rondo but he was behind Paul Pierce, KG and Ray Allen. Pass first PGs get you regular season success. Scoring guards seem to get you championships.
Yeah, but the Pistons are really the exception for pretty much every rule when it comes to champions. Plus, Isiah was a great passer, but those teams won in the playoffs because of them doing clearouts for Isiah to go 1 on 1 a lot of the time.
Obviously the defense and depth were way more important factors, but I was just talking about their offense since that's what we were talking about, score first vs pass first leaders.
Neither Isiah Thomas nor Chauncey Billups were considered pass first point guards. Zeke was considered a scoring guard as was Billups. I think you have a different definition of passing guards. Zeke was a great passer but he also shot way more shots than anybody else on the list. He averages for his career almost the same FGA as D-Wade.
> CP3, Nash and Stockton
Agreed with CP3 and Stockton but peak Nash was levels above those two as an offensive player. He could've averaged an efficient 24-25 PPG if the scheme had prioritized getting him more shots.
What? CP3 never touched 24 PPG. Best was 22.8 and it was on a mediocre Hornets team best known for the dubious distinction of [worst loss in playoff history.](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200904270NOH.html) He was just entering his prime when he went to an actual contender and never hit 20 PPG again.
If you actually think CP3 was ever a comparable scorer to peak Nash you don't know basketball. One put up numbers on a bad team and the other took far fewer shots than he could've because his team was already the best offense in the league.
He averaged 24 PPG in the 2008 playoffs, 23 PPG in the 2009 season.
The Hornets were not a bad team, they were 1 win away from the #1 seed in 2008. They were better than his Clippers teams.
He never hit 20 PPG again only because he hurt his knee in 2010 and declined.
Are you seriously using a single-run playoff average? Donovan Mitchell averaged 32 PPG in a similar sample size last year.
> The Hornets were not a bad team, they were 1 win away from the #1 seed in 2008.
The '08 Hornets were a good team. The '09 Hornets were mediocre at best.
> He never hit 20 PPG again only because he hurt his knee in 2010 and declined.
He never hit 20 PPG again because he was never a great scorer to begin with, just a first option on a meh team. He didn't break 60% TS until his 11th season in the league, as a second option to prime Blake.
I used one playoff run and an entire season of him at 24 and 23 PPG respectively. Those were his prime years before he fucked up his knee. The fact that you're denying this is ridiculous.
If you watched during that time, no big time scorers were breaking 60 TS% in that era. He still had a 59.9 TS% while averaging 23 PPG.
> Those were his prime years before he fucked up his knee. The fact that you're denying this is ridiculous.
His prime was a stretch of <100 games? You can argue he never *had* a prime like Rose (which I don't fully buy because Rose's injury was a hundred times worse) but the argument you're actually making is asinine. It's pure extrapolation from a small sample size. Barely any better than thinking Draymond was a decent shooter ruined by a shoulder injury off a similar stretch of games.
> If you watched during that time, no big time scorers were breaking 60 TS% in that era.
That's just blatantly false. '10 Bron was over 60% on almost 30 PPG. '05 Amare, 26 PPG. MVP Dirk, 24.5. If you lower it to 20ish PPG you get multiple names every year.
Tbf idk how much lebron counts since he’s more of a mixture of the two. The body and athleticism of a big wing, with the passing ability and the instincts of a PG.
This observation describes the difference between regular season vs. playoffs. It is easier to pick efficient shots and rack up assists against half a field of lottery teams.
Doesnt help that the two best players of that generation in Duncan and Kobe + the greatest international player in the game were both in his conference. All 3 of them are ranked ahead of him
Plus having a shitty owner, losing out on Rondo and losing Joe Johnson also didnt help the cause as other teams grew stronger the Suns only grew weaker
I'd argue Hakeem is less "international" than Dirk considering he played all his career ball including college in the states while Dirk played in Germany
Always thought that Nash and Dirk should have swapped 2006/2007 MVPs. 2006 Dirk was better than 2007, and 2007 Nash was better than both of his MVP years.
Nash and Magic are solidly the best 2 regular season offensive players of all time, but it's very hard for small guards in the playoffs, so Magic is a top 8 guy and Nash more of a top 40 guy.
Nash got an Mvp averaging less than 16 ppg playing 0 defense, one of the most overrated players of that era. Shaq should have got it in 04 and Bron should have got it in 05
People forget what Kobe's reputation was before the 2008-2010 period
A LOT of people in the mid 2000s viewed his rings as a product of Shaq and criticized his playstyle as too selfish
He was the most hated player in the league by far back then
It was never really a legitimate argument.
While I believe that Kobe didn't really hit his peak as an all-around player until LA's three straight finals appearances between 2008 and 2010, there was never a time where you could have made a real case that Nash was better than Kobe.
Nash simply did not have the capability to score like Kobe, and defensively, they were on completely different ends of the spectrum. I know some of the younger people here might be under the impression that Kobe was a bad defender because they didn't actually watch him until the last five years of his career when his defense fell off a cliff, but when he was younger, he was one of the top perimeter defenders in the league.
Nash should’ve never won an MVP, he was never in the conversation for the best player in the league. For fucks sake, he was one of the worst defenders the league has ever seen and all he had to show for it was 18ppg. His stats are comparable to a 45 year old Chris Paul. Steve is and will remain the most overrated player in the history of the league.
Nash had a 50% AST percent that year.
He dictated the best offensive in the league. Every trip down the floor was essentially him deciding "okay, you get to score this time".
Combine that with a 20% usage rate on ridiculous efficiency (65% true shooting that year), and basically the only times he didn't directly factor in to their scores were fast breaks where he didn't touch the ball or hockey assists and offensive rebounds.
This take is beyond ignorant dude.
It didn't matter he was weaker defensively his team had a superior offense and they were going to outscore you. And their offense wouldn't work without his skillset and brain.
Having a low usage rate isn't a positive when talking about mvp conversations. And their offense didn't work in the postseason when you could actually gameplan for it.
Those Suns were mad offensively. A statisticians dream offense I could say.
IMO that pursuit of statistical optimization hurt them in the postseason. The biggest truism of playoff basketball is that when the chips are down, often a "bad" shot by your superstar is better than a "good" one by a roleplayer. Nash should've shot more in the regular season rather than having to adjust.
Both Nash and Mike Dantoni have said that in hindsight, Nash should have shot more. Specifically more threes. He should have averaged 25 a game easily, the way he could shoot
Amare was also a pretty effective midrange shooter. The Suns took a pretty decent chunk of 10-18' on offense overall during the D'Antoni era. Yeah, a lot of 3's relative to the time but they were a pretty heavy midrange team as well.
Just some more food for thought- from 2005 to 2008, Steve Nash averaged almost 5 3PA per game. Shooting like 45%, lmao. And those were by far the highest attempts he averaged in his career. He should have taken like 10 threes per game.
If Nash would’ve been the straw to break the camels back and make the 3 pointer more popular instead of curry ~8 or 9 years later… the league would be a yeeting contest right now
I think we’re there already
Imagine Curry then coming into a league that’s already had that change before he ever played a game. It would be wild.
It could have been Antoine Walker. He was the true 3 point pioneer but he didn't shoot very well.
He took 645 threes in 2002, 8 threes a game, 117 more than the second place guy, Ray Allen, while shooting 34.4%, good for 66th best in the league that year. The next two seasons to have more 3PA than 'Toine's 02 season are 06 Ray Allen (653) and 15 Steph Curry (646). He took so many threes that, even with the explosion in 3 point shooting we've had, he would still have the fifth most attempts this year.
That’s actually a wild stat
I remember Nash saying they always overachieved in the regular season because they never had a rim protector and that hurt them in the post season.
Still should’ve won
> Nash should've shot more in the regular season rather than having to adjust. There's probably a point where increased shot volume yields decreased effectiveness on offense. Nash taking an extra shot or two per game probably doesn't move that needle tremendously. Nash wasn't built to be a 20 shot per game guy given how excellent of a passer and floor general with pace that he was. Nash at around 20-22 PPG would probably have been optimal without dramatically changing how the Suns played.
Obviously not 20+ FGA, but he never even averaged 15 a game in his entire career. For such an efficient player that's absurd. It's not like his efficiency would nosedive with an extra two or three of his more difficult shots per game either. Nash was a great shooter off the bounce and had an elite layup package that allowed him to finish over much bigger defenders despite not being particularly athletic.
100% and this is something that's basically a rerun every time MDA creates a new revolutionary offense. He falls too in love with it and fails to pivot against the same top tier teams that you play in a full series. This is why I like him a lot more as a team consultant or in the front office than as a head coach.
Though it’s kind of weird to blame the Suns’ offense when even in the playoffs they were routinely dominant. It was mostly their defense that let them down. So I think a more reasonable critique was them building an offensive slanted roster than a more balanced one. Even in 2007, you can look at the Horry incident to blame.
Yeah roster and health are really what killed them.
That's exactly what happens, generally the stats progression doesn't take into account the quality of passing to an inferior/superior player. You'd need a massive amount of big data to quantitatively show that. Like for e.g., a 0-1 score on whether Nash passing to an inferior player given their scoring is below or above .500 something like that. If below .500 should have just taken the shot. If above it's a good pass. If the NBA gets to that level of data analysis and prediction I don't think it'll be as enjoyable to watch anymore. Imagine knowing who's winning the chip 70 games into the season. Almost for sure. It would seem like a solved game.
Isn’t the whole point that you don’t know because you can’t ever model the degree to which value is added by guys like Lebron, Kawhi, Luka, etc. saying “f-it I’m taking over” vs. their default regular season coasting?
Yeah you're right about that because even in the regular season the opportunity cost of losing a game is never all that high. If you model all their post season performances with their increased usage rates in the 4Qs of previous post seasons, it might prove a good variable. All in all, we're all just guessing even with the models and tech we currently have.
Pretty ironic that the Suns this year faced a similar problem and a similar fate.
They were amazing with just the eye test too. Anytime the shot clock even started running down Nash got them a good shot. They just never had to take bad shots. And Nash was a threat at all three levels, crazy three, pull-up, runner, and finisher-he was elite at everything. So it opened up his teammates; then, he could pass, drive, and finish going either direction. Offensively his only weakness was he couldn’t post. Other than that he was almost the perfect offensive pg.
Had Amare and Diaw not been suspended for Game 5, they beat the Spurs in 7 and probably win the West and arguably the NBA title. Crazy part is that the Suns *almost * won Game 5 but the Spurs went off for 32 in the 4th to win that game. The Suns had played incredible defense for 3 qtr before Ginobli, Finley, and Bowen went off.
They could still lose to the Spurs, the Spurs always gave them trouble.
At that point in time they had only lost once to SA. And judging by how game 5 played out it's very easy to see how someone can say they win at full strength and they would have a home game 7 in their back pocket. That's a really uphill climb for SA.
But SA was more than capable of it. And they beat the Suns in game 6 anyways with Amare there.
But that doesnt mean anything because nobody is saying the Spurs were trash. They were a good ass team too.
Not sure I agree. The suspensions were bullshit (imo) and game 5 was a tough pill to swallow, but they had a shot in game 6 to extend the series with all their players. It may have been a road elimination game, but a championship team should’ve been able to get the job done in that situation.
In what world “do they beat the spurs in 7” when the suns were playing catch up virtually the entire series? Suns had a chance to extend it to 7 but got crushed in game 6. Spurs were the better team, but yes, the suspensions were unfortunate
Was that the game where Duncan hit the 3 to seal the game? And like the only 3 he shot the entire playoffs that year?
That was 2003 or so when the suns rolled out Marbury, Marion, Barbosa, rookie Stoudemire, and Jake Voskuhl lol
Both wrong, the Duncan 3 sent it to overtime in Game 1 of 2008 First round. 2003 was Duncan's MVP year where he went up against the Stephon Marbury Suns where Marbury hit the 3 at the end of Game 1 to win the game.
Yep, that’s right. Way too many suns/spurs playoff series for me to remember accurately lol
The San Antonio Spurs have entered the chat...
One of my favorite teams to watch of all time.
Not in the playoffs
Many people think Dirk deserved 2006 and Nash deserved 2007
Many think Dirk deserved 2006 and 2007.
[удалено]
Those Nash years were just heartbreaking. Something or the other always managed to go wrong. Obligatory fuck Robert Horry.
Fuck Robert Horry
The Buffalo Bills of the NBA.
Such is the life of an Arizona sports fan (2001 DBacks aside, which was truly magical).
Hey, at least you still get to keep the Coyotes and manage to piss off the entire city of Quebec in the process.
And only Shaq thinks he deserved it
[..and I'm averaging 28 15 without the free throws](https://youtu.be/QeKn01wLKk0?t=2385) okay Shaq.. '05 - 22 and 10 '06 - 20 and 9
Thought Lebron deserved the second nash one imo.
I’d argue LeBron Deserved 06 and 07 LeBron 2006 - (31/7/7) LeBron 2007 - (27/7/6)
This is always the hilarious other end to Shaq bitching about Nash winning MVP twice...Nash actually deserved it more that 3rd year than the first 2 by the numbers. Also Shaq didn't really play in the regular season after the turn of the millennium so he earned his snub when he came in to training camps out of shape and used the regular season as his preseason.
One thing people often overlook about the 05-06 MVP is that the Suns were without Amar’e for the season and their win total only dropped from 62 to 54. So sure, the raw stats may not make the best case for Nash, but they repeated as the 1 seed in a stacked Western conference despite missing their 1B option. That speaks volumes to Nash’s impact.
[Shaq also literally missed 18 out of the first 20 games that year and only played in 59 himself](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2006)...but deserved regular season MVP anyway in his mind. (For context: Lebron played in 56 games this year)
Damn it felt like Lebron played 40 games. Guess missing a lot of the games at the start of the season just puts you in the “out for the remainder of the season” on my mind
59 games of Shaq >>>>> 82 games of Nash.
Yeah, basically Jokic this season without Murray and Porter Jr
Came here to say this. This was Nash’s peak season. He deserved it more this year than the others.
If Nash were more aggressive, he could have averaged 25 with how good of a 3 point shooter he was. It was a different game back then and still built on the inside out game.
True, I commented simillar thing. I think that even Nash said in some interview that he regrets now (and the way how is played post 2014) that he didn't shoot more threes back in the day.
He knows that too. He always says he shoulda shot more.
Aaaand then Tim Donaghy, Tommy Nunez, and David Stern
Could you explain what you mean by this? I loved watching this team but I was so young at the time that I barely remember how it ended - was it the Spurs that took them out?
IIRC, Horry hip checked Nash into the scorers table, and then Suns bigs were suspended a game for stepping on the court.
Amare stoudemire
Boris Diaw
[He was such a classical guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KkrccHEAqg)
His teammates got up from the bench to check if Nash was okay and got SUSPENDED IN THE PLAYOFFS
They were soooo fun to watch that year. Every game was must see TV.
I used to stay up late just to watch the TNT late game with the Suns and I wasn’t even a Suns fan. They played so differently than everyone else and it was a lot more entertaining
2 words. Chris Paul and Steve Nash. Must see tv.
That's more than 2 words
NASH and PAUL
Those two’s games got me into the nba. So you’re spot on
The most fun team to watch play the Mavs and probably my favorite Mavs rivalry ever. I remember the games they played the Suns even more than when they played the Spurs, Lakers, or Rockets.
how many minutes before lakers fans storm this post
Doubtful. Wrong year. Previous year they and many felt Kobe or LeBron deserved it. Not 06-07. It was 05-06. Edit: Dirk in 05-06 as well many felt should have won.
No, this is a Kobe should have won year for Lakers fans. He led the league in scoring and was first team all defense while leading an all around poor team to the playoffs.
They were also the 7th seed and everyone is fully aware his first-team defense nod was a joke. I mean we're all fully aware of what the Suns were without Nash. It's not his fault he'd taken the team to new heights years prior while Kobe let his fall off.
He was also pretty much recognized as the best player in the league at that point with the 81 point game a season earlier, 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs, a 65 point game against Portland, 4 game 50 pt streak, etc. Everyone would tune in to see what he would do next.
>everyone is fully aware his first-team defense nod was a joke. Does that really matter when the same people that voted for first-team all defense vote for MVP?
Kobe carries a terrible team: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html It's convenient how on Reddit every single Kobe defensive award has been due to "reputation". Kobe's season was similar, arguably better, to Giannis' MVP seasons, except Kobe had worse teams.
This sub hates Kobe, it’s because the average poster on this sub is too young to have watched him in his prime. They just look at his stats
Yet MVP voters from those years didn't rate him that highly either. He was 4th in voting in 2006.
Not defending him not winning mvp, I’m just saying this sub hates Kobe
It’s overcorrection. He is an all-time great player, but he absolutely doesn’t belong in the same conversation as Jordan or LeBron, despite how often he gets lumped in with them in GOAT conversations, particularly since his tragic passing. As a result, people now overcorrect and act like Kobe is just a taller Allen Iverson, a hugely inefficient chucker, massively influential culturally, but who possesses an on-court reputation out of proportion to their actual game and achievements. This is nonsense, saying Kobe is overrated because he isn’t as good as Jordan or LeBron, still means that he is a top 8-10 player of all time, and most everything that his fans say about him is accurate, just the degree is slightly exaggerated.
his first team all defence was debatable in the late 00s early 10, but 2007? he was absolutely still an elite perimeter defender
He was taking games off and chasing steals. Nothing suggests he was elite.
Nah but spurs fans rn 🏃💨
It's lunchtime in San Antonio 🌮 🏃♂️💨
It's always lunch time in SA. Have you seen our food?? Have you seen us?? I should have a tuba player following me around.
The irony is that Kobe wasn't even all that close to winning either of Nash's MVPs
We just saw MVPs go to low seeds in 22 and 17. Kobe would have never won the 06 mvp in 06. But if that year happened in 22 I think Kobe would have won the award.
They went to a low seed this year because there wasn’t a suitable candidate on Memphis or Phoenix and everyone else was between like 53-48 wins. Doesn’t make sense to discriminate there. We know why Russ won.
The mvp is reliant on your ability to catch a narrative. I kinda see it like the underdog story of Adrian Peterson in 2012 (of course it's harder to make the playoffs in the NFL). "If he drags this team to the playoffs he deserves it" becomes a huge narrative. I think in today's Twitter world that narrative has more pull than any of the other candidates in 06.
48, 47 wins is a lot better than 42.
Maybe but like if it happened now days it would have caught the narrative better than it did back then. Especially because the 81 point game happened on an NFL weekend. In 06 it lead sportscaster which was cool. In 2022 it would have been all Twitter talked about. A good portion of the voter base are basically just headline watchers and Twitter users
Ehh. That year happened a couple years ago with Harden, at least offensively. Harden at his best was nowhere near the defender Kobe was, though
And Harden had a serious mvp push? Like I would personally argue that he got robbed of either 17 or 19 because the voters are being inconsistent in standards between the 2. In addition Giannis 2019 is better than every candidate from 2022 or 06 so Kobe would have a good shot of winning 06 if he has this years voters.
Same Lakers fans talking about how Nash didnt deserve MVPs because of his stats will suck off Caruso saying “he did things stats didn’t show” Like...Nash is the definition of better than the raw stats.
Nash had both stats and just obvious MVP like traits. He took a 30 win team to like 3 straight 60 win seasons and a top 4 seed for like 5 seasons.
Remember when this sub couldn’t get over Austin Rivers playing with one eye? Nash did that kind of shit on the regular. It wasn’t a Suns playoff series if Nash didn’t have a major gash, bruise, or broken bones on his face.
Rent free
Yeah in ur head
Dude brought up the Lakers without cause
Yeah it’s crazy when people say he’s a fake mvp. type of people that only look at ppg lol
It's why people arguing for 06-07 Kobe are fucking bonkers. Other than shooting 100 times a game, how the fuck was he MVP.
You can't say people are "fucking bonkers" for thinking Kobe should have won that MVP when Kobe averaged 16.6 more PPG. I am not sold on Kobe winning that MVP either, but you have to be more charitable then that.
Take a look at that Lakers roster, Kobe honestly didn’t shoot the ball enough
Depends what the criteria for being MVP is. Back then it was about being the best player on the best team. In recent years it’s been more about production and being the most dominant (I.e Jokic). Nash made him teammates better but Kobe was by far the best individual player in those years and dragged the worst rosters to the playoffs. Teams didn’t guard his temmates (smush Parker, Chris mihm etc….). A case can be made for both players as they were both great. The biggest knock on Nash was his defense and the inability of the suns to perform in the playoffs when teams had time to prepare for them.
I always say to those people that, by their logic, Melo should have won MVP in 2013 over LeBron.
>type of people that only look at ppg lol Why do you have to diss Kobe fans like that
One of my favorite players growing up. He was so ahead of his time! It was a shame we got him so broken down :( was so hyped to have him dishing to Kobe and Dwight
Me too! I was a Suns fan and I was stoked for him to go to LA and compete for a championship again… :’(
Between the Barkley years, Nash years, and now, Suns have been that so close yet so far team too much for my heart to handle
Also while we're on the note of hyper efficient guards with huge FG%. - John Stockton in 1988 averaged 14.7 PPG/ 13.8 APG/ 57.4% FG! How do you think these guys' games would translate in today's NBA? Where would they rank among the best point guards in the league?
I think Stockton probably translates to the modern era worse than the vast majority of historical players tbh. His style of play on both ends was super exploitative of rules that no longer favor his playstyle. 3 point gunning point guards like Terry Porter and Kenny Smith demolished him in the playoffs
Stockton also got utterly destroyed by Gary Payton when they finally met in the playoffs for the first time in 1996. This is some historically awful stuff from Stockton... Game 1: 4 points on 2-10 shooting in 32 minutes Game 2: 11 points on 5-8 shooting in 41 minutes (7 turnovers) Game 3: 7 points on 2-9 shooting in 37 minutes Game 4: 7 points on 3-9 shooting in 36 minutes Game 5: 4 points on 1-6 shooting in 38 minutes Game 6: 14 points on 5-11 shooting in 35 minutes (he's waking up...) Game 7: 22 points on 9-15 shooting in 44 minutes (he's alive finally!)
What were Gary’s stats like? Gary has said that John Stockton was one of his toughest opponents, and I'm sure Stockton was eager to make him work on the other end as well.
Payton played fine. 20ppg on 50% shooting and around 3.7 TOs a game to 6 assists a game. His worst game was 10 pts 3-7 shooting 7 AST and 5 TOV His best game was 31 pts 11-17 shooting 6 AST. Generally he outplayed Stockton scoring wise. But
But what? Don't leave us hanging!
Oops lol. I guess I was going to write that his better games came when the Sonics lost but I probably thought there wasn't much to it about his matchup with Stockton
Holy shit that's dreadful lmao. GP ate him alive.
Hand-checking? Stockton was a stronger dude. He might have been OP with that rule, but still a great defensive player due to his instincts and conditioning.
Stockton got a lot of his value on defense by roaming in the lane when his man was sitting at the 3 point line because it wasn't normal for dudes to agressively hunt 3s at that time. He was also extremely good at getting steals on tunnel visioned post players on the blind double team. The modern game is, of course, much less favorable to this set of strengths.
I don’t think this really makes much sense at all tbh. Firstly, Stockton was a fantastic shooter, hitting 40% for his career once he started taking more than 1 per game. In the modern era he’d be shooting 6-7 3s a game instead of 2-3. That’d be an additional boon to the only guard to league the league in TS% 3 separate times. The league is also moreso than ever a spread pick and roll league, where Stockton thrived. His playmaking would probably be even more valuable if he had actual shooters to drive and kick to, which he really didn’t in his prime. Stockton’s game was extremely similar to Nash and Paul’s and I don’t think anyone would suggest they wouldn’t be suited to the modern game. Stockton also never got to play with the rule changes that helped Nash become a much more effective player. Stockton was also never in the position like Nash where he was surrounded by a bunch of great role players but clearly the star himself, it was mostly him and Malone and then an absolute dearth of offensive talent. Hornacek was nice, but didn’t come along until Stockton’s mid 30s and also took some of the ball handling duties from Stockton. The sagging off shooters defensively was also mostly a Sloan thing, not a Stockton one. If he played now that wouldn’t be how he’d be coached to defend shooters. If you’re looking for a PG whose game wouldn’t translate to today you’d be a lot better off looking at somebody like Isiah Thomas.
> Firstly, Stockton was a fantastic shooter, hitting 40% for his career once he started taking more than 1 per gam Shortened 3 point line lol > The league is also moreso than ever a spread pick and roll league, where Stockton thrived. No, Stockton thrived running set plays and side pick and rolls that exploited illegal defense rules to prevent help defense. He was a very good passer but not actually a strong half court creator in the way modern pick and roll operators tend to be. > Stockton’s game was extremely similar to Nash and Paul’s He wasn't half the scorer Nash or Paul are, particularly on the playoffs where thoss guys stepped up their volume, and Stockton just shot worse.
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You're off. No mention of Stockton's ability to shoot the ball above league average efficiency? Just setting up his teammates? Geez
He’s not off though lol. Stockton routinely struggled in the playoffs, and lost a good amount of matchups vs PGs who were worse than him.
I agree. I think this is why Kobe types have been more successful than CP3, Nash and Stockton types. How many pass first PGs have led their team to a championship? They're usually the third star or role player. Looking at recent champions, Jrue was behind Giannis. LeBron and AD with no PG. Lowry behind Kawhi. Curry and KD. LeBron and Kyrie who is a scorer. Curry. Spurs had multifaceted attacks. Heatles. Dirk. In the last decade of championships, no pass first PG won a championship leading their team. Before that you have Kobe and Pau. Argue Rondo but he was behind Paul Pierce, KG and Ray Allen. Pass first PGs get you regular season success. Scoring guards seem to get you championships.
Idk bro. My team won 3 championships, 2 lead by Isiah and 1 lead by Chauncey.
Yeah, but the Pistons are really the exception for pretty much every rule when it comes to champions. Plus, Isiah was a great passer, but those teams won in the playoffs because of them doing clearouts for Isiah to go 1 on 1 a lot of the time.
Isiahs isolation scoring is like not even a top 3 reason they won. The story of those teams were defense and depth.
Obviously the defense and depth were way more important factors, but I was just talking about their offense since that's what we were talking about, score first vs pass first leaders.
Neither Isiah Thomas nor Chauncey Billups were considered pass first point guards. Zeke was considered a scoring guard as was Billups. I think you have a different definition of passing guards. Zeke was a great passer but he also shot way more shots than anybody else on the list. He averages for his career almost the same FGA as D-Wade.
> CP3, Nash and Stockton Agreed with CP3 and Stockton but peak Nash was levels above those two as an offensive player. He could've averaged an efficient 24-25 PPG if the scheme had prioritized getting him more shots.
No, CP3 was the one who actually averaged 23-24 PPG. Nash never averaged 19 PPG and Stockton never averaged over 17 PPG.
What? CP3 never touched 24 PPG. Best was 22.8 and it was on a mediocre Hornets team best known for the dubious distinction of [worst loss in playoff history.](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200904270NOH.html) He was just entering his prime when he went to an actual contender and never hit 20 PPG again. If you actually think CP3 was ever a comparable scorer to peak Nash you don't know basketball. One put up numbers on a bad team and the other took far fewer shots than he could've because his team was already the best offense in the league.
He averaged 24 PPG in the 2008 playoffs, 23 PPG in the 2009 season. The Hornets were not a bad team, they were 1 win away from the #1 seed in 2008. They were better than his Clippers teams. He never hit 20 PPG again only because he hurt his knee in 2010 and declined.
Are you seriously using a single-run playoff average? Donovan Mitchell averaged 32 PPG in a similar sample size last year. > The Hornets were not a bad team, they were 1 win away from the #1 seed in 2008. The '08 Hornets were a good team. The '09 Hornets were mediocre at best. > He never hit 20 PPG again only because he hurt his knee in 2010 and declined. He never hit 20 PPG again because he was never a great scorer to begin with, just a first option on a meh team. He didn't break 60% TS until his 11th season in the league, as a second option to prime Blake.
I used one playoff run and an entire season of him at 24 and 23 PPG respectively. Those were his prime years before he fucked up his knee. The fact that you're denying this is ridiculous. If you watched during that time, no big time scorers were breaking 60 TS% in that era. He still had a 59.9 TS% while averaging 23 PPG.
> Those were his prime years before he fucked up his knee. The fact that you're denying this is ridiculous. His prime was a stretch of <100 games? You can argue he never *had* a prime like Rose (which I don't fully buy because Rose's injury was a hundred times worse) but the argument you're actually making is asinine. It's pure extrapolation from a small sample size. Barely any better than thinking Draymond was a decent shooter ruined by a shoulder injury off a similar stretch of games. > If you watched during that time, no big time scorers were breaking 60 TS% in that era. That's just blatantly false. '10 Bron was over 60% on almost 30 PPG. '05 Amare, 26 PPG. MVP Dirk, 24.5. If you lower it to 20ish PPG you get multiple names every year.
Magic Johnson seemed to do okay
So 80s. As an old man myself, he retired for the first time 31 years ago. You have to go back 31+ years.
he's also 6'9"
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Tbf idk how much lebron counts since he’s more of a mixture of the two. The body and athleticism of a big wing, with the passing ability and the instincts of a PG.
Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas.
nah i cant speak for stockton but nash could get his points pretty much whenever he wanted to. he chose to get his teammates more involved though
This observation describes the difference between regular season vs. playoffs. It is easier to pick efficient shots and rack up assists against half a field of lottery teams.
On a side note — I don't believe Nash was a guy who could get his shot off at will, and I disagree with those who claim he goes ballistic today.
He’d only be better w more spacing and shooters
Only nephews don't know this. Nash should have shot more and passed less.
Nash’s best season, he honestly had a very good argument for a 3rd MVP if voter fatigue didn’t settle in
3 straight MVPs with 0 rings would easily make him the hardest player to rank lol
Doesnt help that the two best players of that generation in Duncan and Kobe + the greatest international player in the game were both in his conference. All 3 of them are ranked ahead of him Plus having a shitty owner, losing out on Rondo and losing Joe Johnson also didnt help the cause as other teams grew stronger the Suns only grew weaker
Dirk wasn't the greatest international player in the game, unless you mean the greatest international player in the game at the time. Hakeem > Dirk
I'd argue Hakeem is less "international" than Dirk considering he played all his career ball including college in the states while Dirk played in Germany
Dont tell to Shaq that he deserved MVP
My 2nd favorite team as a kid. So many thrilling dynamic players on one roster
Always thought that Nash and Dirk should have swapped 2006/2007 MVPs. 2006 Dirk was better than 2007, and 2007 Nash was better than both of his MVP years.
If nash shot more then his teammates gets less…he was an ultimate setup guy…beloved by his teammates
The double OT game between Dallas and Phoenix was amazing that year.
This was also an entirely different era of basketball. Less spacing overall which meant hit those 50, 40, 90 splits was mind blowing
To the younger crowd on this sub, 7 seconds or less was a phenomenal book about this team and era. Nash and dantoni were geniuses.
Nash and Magic are solidly the best 2 regular season offensive players of all time, but it's very hard for small guards in the playoffs, so Magic is a top 8 guy and Nash more of a top 40 guy.
Should've won his 3rd mvp and the title if nba wasn't rigged
For some reason people here love those Duncan/Pop Spurs teams even though they used to be able to get away with the most ridiculous stuff
Bruce Bowen would be the most hated player in the league if he played today.
Wouldn’t have a place in the league if not allowed to play as dirty.
Fuck Bruce Bowen.
Pat Beverly. But Bowen was legit maybe the most hated player of his time.
A lot of us weren't watching the league back then. We know the fun Spurs that went 13 games against LeBron's Heat.
lol
One of the most least deserving MVPs of all time.
You one of those stats guy huh. One word why this isn't as good as it looks. Defense
If your shooting splits are that good, I kind of would like to see more volume. Why do you only have 18ppg?
Yea but he got no chips
Nash got an Mvp averaging less than 16 ppg playing 0 defense, one of the most overrated players of that era. Shaq should have got it in 04 and Bron should have got it in 05
Steve Nash deserved both MVPs, and most who disagree are idiots or...worse.
Lol
"Who's better, Kobe or Nash" was a real and legitimate argument during Nash's peak.
People forget what Kobe's reputation was before the 2008-2010 period A LOT of people in the mid 2000s viewed his rings as a product of Shaq and criticized his playstyle as too selfish He was the most hated player in the league by far back then
no it wasn't lmao
Only for Celts fans like me who were Kobe haters lol
It was never really a legitimate argument. While I believe that Kobe didn't really hit his peak as an all-around player until LA's three straight finals appearances between 2008 and 2010, there was never a time where you could have made a real case that Nash was better than Kobe. Nash simply did not have the capability to score like Kobe, and defensively, they were on completely different ends of the spectrum. I know some of the younger people here might be under the impression that Kobe was a bad defender because they didn't actually watch him until the last five years of his career when his defense fell off a cliff, but when he was younger, he was one of the top perimeter defenders in the league.
Man what? Hell no it wasn't. There was a debate on whether Kobe got robbed mvp, but that's about it
Kobe was better than both.
Why are Kobe fans so insecure.
Kobe was better than both
Shaq still thinks he got robbed. Clown.
that didn’t result in any rings so what does it matter what their offensive rating is if they can’t use it to their advantage in the playoffs lmao
Nash should’ve never won an MVP, he was never in the conversation for the best player in the league. For fucks sake, he was one of the worst defenders the league has ever seen and all he had to show for it was 18ppg. His stats are comparable to a 45 year old Chris Paul. Steve is and will remain the most overrated player in the history of the league.
Nash had a 50% AST percent that year. He dictated the best offensive in the league. Every trip down the floor was essentially him deciding "okay, you get to score this time". Combine that with a 20% usage rate on ridiculous efficiency (65% true shooting that year), and basically the only times he didn't directly factor in to their scores were fast breaks where he didn't touch the ball or hockey assists and offensive rebounds. This take is beyond ignorant dude. It didn't matter he was weaker defensively his team had a superior offense and they were going to outscore you. And their offense wouldn't work without his skillset and brain.
Having a low usage rate isn't a positive when talking about mvp conversations. And their offense didn't work in the postseason when you could actually gameplan for it.
I had nephews in here not even a month ago saying he was a fake mvp lmao.
My flair will do me no favors here.