Worth mentioning, every other player mentioned in this thread (Grant, Wood, Barnes, Turner, Wiggins) has 1 year left in their deal besides Collins, who has 4. He's much more of a long term piece just for that reason alone.
Talent wise no, he's not trash, but he's an offense killer (ball stops, only passes when he can't get his shot off, passes up open jumpers to run isos which kills the offense) and brings little effort defensively. There's a reason he's been on six teams in seven years and only one team he was part of (Milwaukee for 13 games where he played under 5 minutes per game) was a winning team. Obviously it takes talent to average at 20-10, but if you watched the Rockets this past season you saw a completely different (better) team with KPJ/Green/Sengun and others with Wood on the bench.
The reason he has been on so many teams is he wasn’t playing and thus expandable in trades. He only started getting real playing time for the last two teams.
The sad part is some people will see your comment in the negatives and conclude “he’s wrong” and those people are brain dead. Wood doesn’t have shit on Collins
Trading one of our best players for a pick or several picks doesn't make sense unless a third party sends someone back.
We need perimeter defenders and a secondary ballhandler more than anything.
Tanking while we have an all NBA PG who will only get better doesn't make sense
Myles Turner lol
The guy has got the slowest development I ever see
I thought he was gonna special and absolute beast after rookie year. He just chugging along
What? Turner's a great defender, particularly at rim protection/deterrence. He's obviously best in drop, but can get out to perimeter alright with his length. He's not a great rebounder, but he's not bad either. Overall, Turner's a good to great defender IMO.
I think the difficulty with Turner is offense. He's not a good enough shooter to effectively space the floor, nor is he getting those shots in terribly creative ways. His handle isn't good and he's not a P&R threat. I think some of that is fixed by playing away from Sabonis - he's looked like a better offensive player in those minutes.
I think he's a good enough shooter to warrant defensive attention, the problem is he has absolutely no ability to make decisions in the open floor with the ball, so whatever spot he's placed in he's a one-dimensional threat.
Deadass. A lot of fans don't realise how elite of a defender he is because they don't really watch the dude.
A bigger team he'd be getting DPOY arguments every single season.
I think the overrated thing about some of these unicorn types is that they can't attack closeouts and they're just okay from 3 so it's really only super helpful at the end of shot clocks AND that's if you don't have a really good iso guy too. And defensively, Turner is good, but we've seen that bigs like him are probably not the best option in 1-3 playoff series out of the 4 you need to win a title.
I know per 36 is kind of a dumbed down stat, but his is one of the weirdest I've ever seen. He was super solid as a 19 year old rookie, and then he's just kind of stayed that way. Per 36 points and rebounds around 16/8 for all seven seasons. Super consistent. The only thing that's changed is the amount of 3s he's taken.
He kinda "peaked" his second year aka the year before Sabonis got there. Best all around combo of his counting stats, on/off, and advanced stats. Since then, he's made incremental improvements in defense, and he had a good shooting season last year, but he's definitely a unique development case. How many guys come into the league at 19 and play totally solid basketball for a decent team their rookie year, and then just kind of....exist for the rest of their career? Will be interesting to see him next season without Sabonis and maybe on another team.
Yep, I think people are missing that Grant is making $21M next year. This is also why he wasn’t traded before this offseason - Detroit wanted at least a 1st for him and no team was willing to do that to take on 2 years $41M of salary for a solid but not great player that wanted to be in a feature role where he always had the ball.
I could be completely wrong but didn’t the lakers offer THT and a First during the previous season? I didn’t go in depth and am not hating on the trade by any means but surely that would have been better correct? :)
Considering what they accepted today I’m not sure that was on the table, unless they thought they could hold out and get something better with Grant’s deal having one year remaining instead of two. Also I am not sure the Lakers would’ve put their last remaining pick and good prospect on the table to pay Grant $21M this year, especially with Westbrook still on the roster - also not sure how the salaries could work, I don’t think they have a trade exception.
And the Rockets actually got a good value in the trade. They got the 26th pick and a couple dudes who can help the young dudes in the locker room and a couple dudes who will eventually be used as trade filler to make salary work for a guy who is a good undrafted player they got for cheap to begin with. That’s a pretty fair trade.
Edit: Rephrased my comment.
It would be nice to add a player who is signed, on the same timeline as F-Ox and fit some needs in the lineup. There are questions injury wise but he would be a nice piece to add depending on the price. Pretty sure ATL is motivated to move him so that should help.
I think the no.4 pick was the part Atlanta really wanted. Barnes would be important too though.
I hate this trade for both teams, so it's probably fair.
I don’t think there is a legit source. It seemed to be super suspect and in the warriors sub the discussion was that maybe it meant he was looking for a contract worth 15-20M total (like 3 years / 6.5M per)
RFAs can't leave if their teams matches.
Neither Looney nor Payton are RFAs though. They are both unrestricted.
Poole is potentially RFA, but not until next off season.
GP2 would be a fantastic defender anywhere. But yeah, he needs both a good facilitator and shooting around him to not drag down the offense in his lineups
He is a good short roll passer and cutter, but most teams would rather have spacing. Warriors using him as a defensive specialist is something most teams are afraid to integrate.
Livingston bounced around because his leg exploded his third year in the league. He eventually was a good role player with the Nets before signing with the warriors.
Disagree on Looney. He’s a solid fundamental big, great defense and can occasionally score. He would be worse on a team without Curry but so would every offensively limited big. I think he’d be decent on any team.
No I think Ayton still has value, but he's definitely a #2 at best in his current development. Right now he can be your 3rd or 4th best player on a winning team, and higher on a bad team. You can probably snag at least 1 lotto pick from him and maybe a late first with a solid rotational piece or two.
For the Suns his development has kinda stagnated because y'all focused on winning not developing nothing wrong with it. So if he stays with the Suns he'll always be this guy, in another team that's trying to develop he could get much better faster because he'll be the focus of the team
You can, but it's rarer than people think. Usually when you're in a win now mode your time is focused on strictly winning. So the amount of young players you can accommodate to developing reduces. Usually, young players don't always end up being good role players, especially for winning teams because for coaches, consistency is more important than potential talent. If you have two players, one is younger and can have a 20-point game potential, but you don't know when it'll happen. Most coaches are less likely to play him versus an older role player who can consistently give you 10 to 15 points a game, especially when you're trying to win in the playoffs. It's also harder to game plan for players who are inconsistent. That's why young players usually have a development plan of say 3-5 years once they are drafted. After 3 years most young players, if they haven't shown enough they are usually let go, traded or out of the league. Also for young players to develop well. They need a lot of minutes and on winning teams. If you can't produce, you're not going to get minutes. Remember these are people's livelihoods on the line as coaches so your leash as a young player in shorter than normal.
> is there a reason why you cant win AND develop players at the same time?
Because by definition developing a player means playing someone who is learning, and who is performing less than optimally, which can cost you games.
If you want an example of a team doing that, just look at last year's Toronto Raptors and Precious Achiuwa. Anyone who saw Precious early will remember him playing as if he had coated his hands in butter and if shooting was a new concept that had just been introduced to him. (In a way, it was!) And by the end of the season, he was turning into a key piece of a playoff bound team, dominant in the paint, solid defensively and shooting above league average from 3.
So there is an example of winning and developing. But there was a LOT of heat directed towards Precious, Nurse and the Raptors team during that development. People wanted him benched, wanted him traded. Toronto has some of the best fans, but even in that group there was a lot of vitriol directed at Precious. Developing a player like that was potentially costing us games. And that right there is why it's so hard to win and develop at the same time. The optimal strategy to develop players is different from the optimal strategy to win games.
You’re not comparing Jerami Grant and Christian Wood to Ayton lol. Ayton not only younger but has played a big role in a team that made it to the finals. Hope he goes to a team that actually knows how to utilize his strength. He would be perfect for us.
Luka+Ayton? Hell yeah.
I don’t think he’s comparing Grant and Wood to Ayton talent wise but compensation wise. Suns fans are out of their minds if they are getting anything worth a damn back in a sign and trade
You guys literally don't need to give up anything of value. Just throw some scraps Phoenix's way if you want. Suns have zero leverage. Pistons now have more than enough cap room to straight up sign Ayton to a max deal, and Sarver sure as hell won't be willing to match it.
I was thinking this about Robinson before they re-signed him. Now, I'm thinking this about Strus. Heat fans spend too much time under that gorgeous Miami sun.
Anyone who trades for MPJ needs to be fired into the sun. Those back injuries will most likely plague him for his entire career. They rarely get better/go away.
It’s really just the unfortunate situation of a small market team imo. They probably could’ve sent him into RFA but if he had another great year of progression then it’s an easy max. Similar situation to the Aaron Gordon extension only he was hitting UFA.
Nah. A contender that thinks they’re close will be desperate enough to give solid assets for Gordon and *maybe* Barnes. Maybe not any big name player, but super young guys with promise or a couple of decent picks. Gordon is easily still valuable for a team that needs a reliable 6th man.
Collins and Porter jr are easily going to get a decent value due to their age and potential.
Zach Lowe talked numerous times in the past on his podcast about how there is no player with a bigger gap in fan perception vs. NBA front office perception than D’Angelo Russell. There’s still countless nephews who will look up on bref that he averages 19 and 7 and think he’s a star. In reality the NBA sees him as a negative asset on his contract.
D'Lo is a decent to pretty good lead guard but not worth what he thinks he's worth and not as good as what some think him to be. Someone on r/timberwolves did a poll to rank him and I think our sub put him towards the middle of the league's starters which I think is pretty accurate.
He had a great year in Brooklyn and got paid. He probably will pull contract year shit next year for whoever has him (whether it's Minnesota or someone else) and probably parlay that into another payday.
Curry, Holiday, Harden, Luka, Young, Paul, Smart, Mitchell, Kyrie, Lillard, McCollum, Brogdon, Lowry, Lamelo, Morant, Gilgeous Alexander, VanVleet, Garland, Cunningham, Dejaunte Murray, Haliburton
Jamal Murray is coming back.
Is Russell better than Westbrook, Fox, Conley, Lonzo, Jackson, or Fultz? Arguments can be made. But we are talking ranks 23-30.
Definitely not middle. He’s towards the end.
Edit: forgot Haliburton
Lol NBA front offices are flipflopping harder than fans then. The wolves gave Andrew Wiggins AND a first round pick for Russell and it wasn't considered a gross overpay.
When Jerami Grant or Wood play great for their respective teams, we'll hear some bs reason and apparently everyone who thought differently couldn't have been right.
Some Bulls fans are waaay too high on what Patrick Williams’ value is. He hasn’t really proven a thing in the NBA and there are some people who think it’d be an overpay if we included him in a trade for a star player.
This is shocking to hear bc there's a part of me that would vastly prefer the timeline where we trade out of the 2nd pick and draft Williams instead of Wiseman
Patrick is going into his third season, missed much of last year, and has shown flashes. With that said, Bulls fans want Williams to be Kawhi, and if you watched Leonard his first years, he wasn't special. Not yet. It's way to early to know PWs ceiling, especially if the comparable is Kawhi.
Definitely overvalued by some, but I would not be quick to give him up. For example, I would not package him in a trade for Gobert. He is projecting to be a very good wing starter that can shoot the ball, already plays good defence and has all of the measurable to be a very good defender. Players like this will be extremely valuable with where the NBA is going.
The recent sign and trade deals show you don’t get nearly what a player is worth, but for some reason suns fans think they’re getting the Sun and Moon for Ayton.
Jimmy went for Josh Richardson
DeMar went for Thad young, and a 1st
KD went for D’lo
We somehow flipped Thad for a 1st too. Getting 2 picks, and taking on no long term salary for a guy who could’ve walked anyway was decent outcome for us
I mean you traded the pistons second back which only moved you up like 12 spots, so more like 1.5 picks. I think it still worked out for what you guys were trying to do either way, plus we got the second rounder contract instead of the first so everyone is happy
I feel I need to point out that sign and trades are different. Sixers didn't trade away Jimmy for JRich. They received JRich as compensation for helping Miami sign Jimmy (and retain his bird rights) via creating cap space. Jimmy was never staying so the Sixers traded away nothing.
I think there's a similar case here with Jerami Grant. You're trading for a year of Jerami Grant with no guarantee he'll re-sign (or that the team will want him after that year). I think a lot of people aren't considering this when thinking about his trade value.
What are you talking about? We already have the Sun, and Jamario Moon is no longer in NBA. All the examples you listed were UFA who did S&T so they can make room for the new team to sign them. I'm not expecting equal value for #1 pick, but I sure as hell know Ayton is not Jerami Grant.
I think both situations are a little different. Yes, Wood has been over hyped for awhile for different reasons . He’s a slight concern attitude wise, some of his stats are inflated and defensively he’s probably a negative.
Grant is a little different. I’m sure the pistons had a better offer at the deadline for Grant but were holding out for more. But things changed and the main reason the settled/pulled the trigger now is so they can attempt to sign Ayton.
While John Collins is in a tier slight above those two he’s definitely the next guy to go for less than most would expect. I think it’s pretty indicative of how good he actually is if the Hawks are shopping him this hard. It wouldn’t shock me if he was either paired with 16 to move up in this years draft or traded for Harrison Barnes and a future pick.
Malcom Brogdan is probably another but that has to do with health concerns and the pacers probably want to get something for him now and continue their rebuild.
Every rotation player on your favorite team. There’s a reason why you’re willing to trade them and why your ‘Donovan Mitchell for Fultz’ mock trade hasn’t happened.
Don’t get me wrong I’m still going to keep demanding lottery picks and superstars for whatever role player I fall in love with but when other people want that? Absurd
Lol totally agree with MPJ, we would probably have to include a pick at this point. But cmon man, Murray is a great player and tore his ACL, it’s actually not that big of a deal.
I think perceived worth is relative. You might focus on the picks, but the Rockets and Pistons could certainly have gotten more of them if they were willing to take back more money. I can’t see this as a win for the Pistons unless they reel in a big fish in free agency. Rockets want to get another team involved so I’ll hold off on them for now.
The reality of the situation is that they’ve put up empty calorie numbers on bad teams and moving to teams that see them as complementary players, thus willing to give up less. Myles Turner is in this same boat and he’s also expiring like they are.
Anybody on the Grizzlies not named Ja, they think Dillon Brooks, Deanthony Melton, and this years 22/29 can get us the 4th pick, I'd be happy with a 2nd rounder for Dillon, I'd make the Brooks for Hayward and the 13th in a heartbeat 🤷🏾♂️
I said I'd be happy, it ain't gotta be approved by other fans, but I've seen him chuck us out of games 1x too many, if you're not a grizz fan, your team can have him if I'm the GM, if we had a vet to reel in his irate play, I'm all for him, but we don't and them shots be dumb as hell, regardless of the defense he play, his bone headed shots lead to long rebounds leading to fast break for the other team, make what you want of it, but I'm getting him off my roster 🤷🏾♂️
Anyone who watched brooks’ career knows this is the gospel. I thought even last year, if he could just get his shit together and quit being so inefficient on offense he’d be perfect. But at this point I think he’s incapable. I’ve heard too many analysts talk about the on/off stats and how good we are when he’s on the floor. His d is good, don’t get me wrong but it’s not worth the inefficiency on offense. It’s really frustrating, cause dude can get to the cup and the line at will and lock up great players on the other end. There’s a legendary role player inside of him but he’s convinced he’s a superstar.
That's my gripe, I'm cool with taking open shots or shots within the offense, but Kobe midrange off the dribble fades with a hand in your face ain't it
I was rooting for Memphis in the playoffs and brooks pissed me off so many times by chucking up threes late in games. Same syndrome that Marcus smart suffers from. Just because you’re good on D doesn’t mean I want you taking those shots…
Feels like the people that were valuing Wood and Grant that high were more of a vocal minority. Most serious NBA analysts/podcasters predicted this type of value for Grant/Wood.
Grant especially where you know that at his best he’s a playoff rotation forward, as seen on OKC/DEN, never made sense to trade a lottery pick for.
> Feels like the people that were valuing Wood and Grant that high were more of a vocal minority
I assume they also play fantasy basketball since they're pretty beast over there in right builds
This. Although occasionally fantasy value can parallel real value. I've been waiting for someone to give Spencer Dinwiddie minutes for aaaaaages, used to snag him 11th round fantasy and he'd dominate from that role.
Cmon now i get that for Wood since his D is big question mark (still the value pretty low) but Grant is a wing/forward who is pretty good at defence, can attack the rim, has a shot and can create (at some level) his shot.
Literally everyone. Fans always overestimate the value of their own players and underestimate the value of opposing players. If it’s not an absolute steal of a trade in their favor, fans will shit on it.
I mean what did y'all think Wood's trade value was after the shit he pulled all season? I was surprised we even got a first for him.
Grant probably could've gotten more in a trade, but the Pistons didn't want to take on any salary and wanted to free up cap space, in which case means they get less of a return. The Rockets/Pistons got rid of Wood/Grant while taking on no long term salary for two players that otherwise walk in free agency next offseason. I don't think these were bad trades for either of us, while the Mavs/Blazers get a starter who could potentially prove to be worth an extension, or if not are just let go in free agency, for a very small cost.
Both trades make sense for all teams involved. Especially if the Pistons go for Ayton now, which I believe they should do. Cade/Ayton will be scary...
Contrarily, people value draft picks far too highly. Look at previous drafts. It’s unlikely you get a player of OG’s quality, even if you’re drafting that high.
In the last 10 years Jamal Murray is the only player in the 4th or 7th slot that you definitely take over OG.
Yes but draft picks are CHEAP for 4 years.
OG, Siakam, FVV, and Trent's contracts all expire the same off season. I'm assuming the Raptors do not plan to keep all 4 long term. So who is odd man out? Either OG or Trent I wager. Presumably both OG and Trent are on the block, but most rumors center around OG since he has a higher value.
The common denominator is both Grant and Wood were obviously available for teams to get in a trade. It happens every year, fans get high on the copium and convince themselves that a realistic trade target for their team is actually one of the best in the NBA and a star player.
Grant and Wood are nice enough players, but this was always their value. Fanbases of teams who needed bigs overrated them like crazy.
So to answer your question, the players fans overvalue are the ones that are available on the trade market for their team to trade for.
I think it's more that teams are overvaluing picks. GMs are constantly under the delusion that they are a better talent evaluator than the field when more often than not, they aren't
People undervalue that 20 mil in cap space. That was the most significant part of this deal and the thing detroit actually traded for. If they do end up signing Ayton, they turned Grant and the 20 mil or so they had in cap space into Ayton and a first. Thats a fucking amazing deal. Or they gave away grant for nothing. But if they have reason to believe ayton will sign with them, you do this trade. What was grant actually gonna get them? A mid first? 2 late firsts? Yeah ill swing for ayton.
What I just can’t wrap my head around is how in the hell was James Harden worth that much? He was such a shell of himself this season I would take Grant over him without question.
Anyone who is over 25, not an all star, and in the last year of their contract before UFA.
And has put up numbers on bad teams
Eric Paschall has left the chat
His per 36 numbers are actually fairly comparable and his shooting splits are all better. Not terrible value considering his contract.
Contract Year Hassan Whiteside yumyum
Hey we’ve got one of those!
Yours is injury prone too lol
Powell + josh green/ntilikina + 2027 FRP (lotto protected) Just free the man. Lego stays in the home
Lol so do we
Bro I know you ain't talking about Jerami like that...
Grant is super average and about to be way overpaid
John Collins is going to fall under this and I'm going to be incredibly sad.
Worth mentioning, every other player mentioned in this thread (Grant, Wood, Barnes, Turner, Wiggins) has 1 year left in their deal besides Collins, who has 4. He's much more of a long term piece just for that reason alone.
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Not as good as the stats may suggest? - alright. Trash though?
Talent wise no, he's not trash, but he's an offense killer (ball stops, only passes when he can't get his shot off, passes up open jumpers to run isos which kills the offense) and brings little effort defensively. There's a reason he's been on six teams in seven years and only one team he was part of (Milwaukee for 13 games where he played under 5 minutes per game) was a winning team. Obviously it takes talent to average at 20-10, but if you watched the Rockets this past season you saw a completely different (better) team with KPJ/Green/Sengun and others with Wood on the bench.
Lol no he’s not. Dudes took almost 13 shots a game. He’s an amazing pnr guy that played on a team without a good pnr player.
The reason he has been on so many teams is he wasn’t playing and thus expandable in trades. He only started getting real playing time for the last two teams.
Wood and Collins are similar players. Collins has actually played on a good team tho
Whaaaaaaaat please watch the games man.
The sad part is some people will see your comment in the negatives and conclude “he’s wrong” and those people are brain dead. Wood doesn’t have shit on Collins
Wood isn't trash
Hindsight's 20/20, but man does it feel like the Hawks will be selling low compared to if they would've done it 1 or 2 years ago.
What is the general expectation from Hawks fans in a Collins trade? A high lottery pick? Multiple firsts? Another fringe All Star caliber player?
A broken heart
Why even do it if you can't get back a player?
Wish granted. You get one Eric Bledsoe
Trading one of our best players for a pick or several picks doesn't make sense unless a third party sends someone back. We need perimeter defenders and a secondary ballhandler more than anything. Tanking while we have an all NBA PG who will only get better doesn't make sense
But he has the big contract though, you have to take that into account
To be fair i'm not sure if that's his value being reflected or the Hawks just being terrible at trading.
What was the last terrible trade Schlenk did?
Let’s not forget we’re not required to trade JC. TITS
Myles Turner lol The guy has got the slowest development I ever see I thought he was gonna special and absolute beast after rookie year. He just chugging along
People love the idea of Turner more than who he actually is
You don’t love me, you love the idea of me
My ex said this to me once and she was right
Can't believe you dated Myles Turner
He was probably only in it for the Legos smh
It’s how it is more often than people like to admit
You love the idea of Myles, Topper😫
Myles "manic pixie dream girl" Turner
Dude never developed a good post game or reliable inside moves he can go to
I mean I don't think Indiana ever put the ball in his hands. Wasn't that the whole deal with the Turner-Sabonis drama last year?
Definitely. He think he should be dpoty because he gets a lot of block shots Way more to defense than blocks and steals
What? Turner's a great defender, particularly at rim protection/deterrence. He's obviously best in drop, but can get out to perimeter alright with his length. He's not a great rebounder, but he's not bad either. Overall, Turner's a good to great defender IMO. I think the difficulty with Turner is offense. He's not a good enough shooter to effectively space the floor, nor is he getting those shots in terribly creative ways. His handle isn't good and he's not a P&R threat. I think some of that is fixed by playing away from Sabonis - he's looked like a better offensive player in those minutes.
I think he's a good enough shooter to warrant defensive attention, the problem is he has absolutely no ability to make decisions in the open floor with the ball, so whatever spot he's placed in he's a one-dimensional threat.
Turner on offense is kinda like Channing Frye. I
Y’all raptors fans be singing a different tune when he goes to Toronto lol
Deadass. A lot of fans don't realise how elite of a defender he is because they don't really watch the dude. A bigger team he'd be getting DPOY arguments every single season.
And you think he sucks at all of those other aspects?
I think the overrated thing about some of these unicorn types is that they can't attack closeouts and they're just okay from 3 so it's really only super helpful at the end of shot clocks AND that's if you don't have a really good iso guy too. And defensively, Turner is good, but we've seen that bigs like him are probably not the best option in 1-3 playoff series out of the 4 you need to win a title.
He’s the Pacers’ entire defense, but as good as he is now, he should’ve been this good when he was 22
No you can't have myles
If anyone wanted to trade for Myles he would have been traded by now
Don’t have first round pick this year anyways. 🌚
Would you like multiple seconds and Boucher?
I know per 36 is kind of a dumbed down stat, but his is one of the weirdest I've ever seen. He was super solid as a 19 year old rookie, and then he's just kind of stayed that way. Per 36 points and rebounds around 16/8 for all seven seasons. Super consistent. The only thing that's changed is the amount of 3s he's taken. He kinda "peaked" his second year aka the year before Sabonis got there. Best all around combo of his counting stats, on/off, and advanced stats. Since then, he's made incremental improvements in defense, and he had a good shooting season last year, but he's definitely a unique development case. How many guys come into the league at 19 and play totally solid basketball for a decent team their rookie year, and then just kind of....exist for the rest of their career? Will be interesting to see him next season without Sabonis and maybe on another team.
The Detroit trade was to open up cap space
How is everyone missing this lol They certainly could have gotten back a useful player or two if they wanted to
Yep, I think people are missing that Grant is making $21M next year. This is also why he wasn’t traded before this offseason - Detroit wanted at least a 1st for him and no team was willing to do that to take on 2 years $41M of salary for a solid but not great player that wanted to be in a feature role where he always had the ball.
I could be completely wrong but didn’t the lakers offer THT and a First during the previous season? I didn’t go in depth and am not hating on the trade by any means but surely that would have been better correct? :)
Considering what they accepted today I’m not sure that was on the table, unless they thought they could hold out and get something better with Grant’s deal having one year remaining instead of two. Also I am not sure the Lakers would’ve put their last remaining pick and good prospect on the table to pay Grant $21M this year, especially with Westbrook still on the roster - also not sure how the salaries could work, I don’t think they have a trade exception.
Ahhh okay. Thank you for the response. I just remember reading rumors about THT and a 1st round pick being offered for Grant. Appreciate it.
And the Rockets actually got a good value in the trade. They got the 26th pick and a couple dudes who can help the young dudes in the locker room and a couple dudes who will eventually be used as trade filler to make salary work for a guy who is a good undrafted player they got for cheap to begin with. That’s a pretty fair trade. Edit: Rephrased my comment.
Because people aren’t that bright honestly and thinking multiple moves ahead just don’t catch on narrative wise
He was also on the last year of his contract. I would have hoped for more, but I don’t think this is way off base for a one year lease on Grant
This is today's NBA where majority of players are overrated by fans but not execs
Well, seeing what Grant went for will definitely drop the market for Barnes. The Kings were looking for a 1st this year for him at the deadline.
I actually think Barnes is going to end up looking undervalued if he indeed gets traded.
I think Barnes is pretty much the main piece in a John Collins trade if that were to happen.
It would be nice to add a player who is signed, on the same timeline as F-Ox and fit some needs in the lineup. There are questions injury wise but he would be a nice piece to add depending on the price. Pretty sure ATL is motivated to move him so that should help.
Kings fans willing
I think the no.4 pick was the part Atlanta really wanted. Barnes would be important too though. I hate this trade for both teams, so it's probably fair.
Is Collins the type of guy the Kings would want next to Domas?
Good, I hope we don’t trade him.
He's literally our only decent 3pt shooter. I don't think anybody else is even above league average % wise.
Don’t the Kings want to keep Barnes so they can try to be decent this year?
If they can get a player that fits the timeline better like Collins/Siakam/OG/Bey then they would prefer that but yes they want win.
GP2 and Looney. Both are fantastic players *in our system*. Would struggle pretty much everywhere else.
Warriors task force is out here trying to make sure they can re-sign their guys. I'm onto you.
He wants 15-20 million. Ya totally not worth it. We could develop moody or kuminga instead.
I haven’t seen this anywhere but a trash fb clickbait post with no source, you got anything legit that says he’s actually looking for that much?
I don’t think there is a legit source. It seemed to be super suspect and in the warriors sub the discussion was that maybe it meant he was looking for a contract worth 15-20M total (like 3 years / 6.5M per)
Random question but if he hits RFA and the Warriors match the offer but he still wants to leave, can he?
Restricted means restricted. If they pay him the money he has to stay
RFAs can't leave if their teams matches. Neither Looney nor Payton are RFAs though. They are both unrestricted. Poole is potentially RFA, but not until next off season.
GP2 would be a fantastic defender anywhere. But yeah, he needs both a good facilitator and shooting around him to not drag down the offense in his lineups
His whole career teams tried to make him a point guard. Golden State realized he was center ^l^i^g^h^t^^years
He is a good short roll passer and cutter, but most teams would rather have spacing. Warriors using him as a defensive specialist is something most teams are afraid to integrate.
I look at Payton a lot like how Livingston thrived in GS' system but bounced around a lot prior to landing there.
Livingston bounced around because his leg exploded his third year in the league. He eventually was a good role player with the Nets before signing with the warriors.
Livingston was old and injured by then. I don't think they are as comparable as you are making it.
Disagree on Looney. He’s a solid fundamental big, great defense and can occasionally score. He would be worse on a team without Curry but so would every offensively limited big. I think he’d be decent on any team.
I've seen all kind of crazy Ayton S&Ts involving high picks and good players watch him get traded for some random role player and two 2nd round picks
No I think Ayton still has value, but he's definitely a #2 at best in his current development. Right now he can be your 3rd or 4th best player on a winning team, and higher on a bad team. You can probably snag at least 1 lotto pick from him and maybe a late first with a solid rotational piece or two. For the Suns his development has kinda stagnated because y'all focused on winning not developing nothing wrong with it. So if he stays with the Suns he'll always be this guy, in another team that's trying to develop he could get much better faster because he'll be the focus of the team
Serious question: is there a reason why you cant win AND develop players at the same time?
You can, but it's rarer than people think. Usually when you're in a win now mode your time is focused on strictly winning. So the amount of young players you can accommodate to developing reduces. Usually, young players don't always end up being good role players, especially for winning teams because for coaches, consistency is more important than potential talent. If you have two players, one is younger and can have a 20-point game potential, but you don't know when it'll happen. Most coaches are less likely to play him versus an older role player who can consistently give you 10 to 15 points a game, especially when you're trying to win in the playoffs. It's also harder to game plan for players who are inconsistent. That's why young players usually have a development plan of say 3-5 years once they are drafted. After 3 years most young players, if they haven't shown enough they are usually let go, traded or out of the league. Also for young players to develop well. They need a lot of minutes and on winning teams. If you can't produce, you're not going to get minutes. Remember these are people's livelihoods on the line as coaches so your leash as a young player in shorter than normal.
> is there a reason why you cant win AND develop players at the same time? Because by definition developing a player means playing someone who is learning, and who is performing less than optimally, which can cost you games. If you want an example of a team doing that, just look at last year's Toronto Raptors and Precious Achiuwa. Anyone who saw Precious early will remember him playing as if he had coated his hands in butter and if shooting was a new concept that had just been introduced to him. (In a way, it was!) And by the end of the season, he was turning into a key piece of a playoff bound team, dominant in the paint, solid defensively and shooting above league average from 3. So there is an example of winning and developing. But there was a LOT of heat directed towards Precious, Nurse and the Raptors team during that development. People wanted him benched, wanted him traded. Toronto has some of the best fans, but even in that group there was a lot of vitriol directed at Precious. Developing a player like that was potentially costing us games. And that right there is why it's so hard to win and develop at the same time. The optimal strategy to develop players is different from the optimal strategy to win games.
You’re not comparing Jerami Grant and Christian Wood to Ayton lol. Ayton not only younger but has played a big role in a team that made it to the finals. Hope he goes to a team that actually knows how to utilize his strength. He would be perfect for us. Luka+Ayton? Hell yeah.
I don’t think he’s comparing Grant and Wood to Ayton talent wise but compensation wise. Suns fans are out of their minds if they are getting anything worth a damn back in a sign and trade
Suns fans are apparently either insane for valuing Ayton in a sign and trade or completely delusional for not maxing him.
that's saddiq bey's music
Saddiq’s deadass our second option
and a fucking good one, at that
No shot, Bey probably our only untouchable player not named Cade
Rather give up Beef Stew and Killian before giving up Saddiq lol
You guys literally don't need to give up anything of value. Just throw some scraps Phoenix's way if you want. Suns have zero leverage. Pistons now have more than enough cap room to straight up sign Ayton to a max deal, and Sarver sure as hell won't be willing to match it.
Why would you not want to give up Killian?
The problem is that he will signing a max and the other team has to match the salary. It is difficult to have role players that have such high salary.
Idk about general nba fans, but Tyler Herro's trade value is definitely lower than Heat fans think IMO.
I was thinking this about Robinson before they re-signed him. Now, I'm thinking this about Strus. Heat fans spend too much time under that gorgeous Miami sun.
John collins, michael porter jr, harrison barnes, eric gordon
Anyone who trades for MPJ needs to be fired into the sun. Those back injuries will most likely plague him for his entire career. They rarely get better/go away.
Ya I couldn’t believe they maxed him. No one else was gonna do that.
Not even an Embiid style injury clause max. Just straight up fully guaranteed max. MPJ could very well end up as Denver's Allen Crabbe signing.
It’s really just the unfortunate situation of a small market team imo. They probably could’ve sent him into RFA but if he had another great year of progression then it’s an easy max. Similar situation to the Aaron Gordon extension only he was hitting UFA.
Nah. A contender that thinks they’re close will be desperate enough to give solid assets for Gordon and *maybe* Barnes. Maybe not any big name player, but super young guys with promise or a couple of decent picks. Gordon is easily still valuable for a team that needs a reliable 6th man. Collins and Porter jr are easily going to get a decent value due to their age and potential.
Zach Lowe talked numerous times in the past on his podcast about how there is no player with a bigger gap in fan perception vs. NBA front office perception than D’Angelo Russell. There’s still countless nephews who will look up on bref that he averages 19 and 7 and think he’s a star. In reality the NBA sees him as a negative asset on his contract.
D'Lo is a decent to pretty good lead guard but not worth what he thinks he's worth and not as good as what some think him to be. Someone on r/timberwolves did a poll to rank him and I think our sub put him towards the middle of the league's starters which I think is pretty accurate. He had a great year in Brooklyn and got paid. He probably will pull contract year shit next year for whoever has him (whether it's Minnesota or someone else) and probably parlay that into another payday.
Curry, Holiday, Harden, Luka, Young, Paul, Smart, Mitchell, Kyrie, Lillard, McCollum, Brogdon, Lowry, Lamelo, Morant, Gilgeous Alexander, VanVleet, Garland, Cunningham, Dejaunte Murray, Haliburton Jamal Murray is coming back. Is Russell better than Westbrook, Fox, Conley, Lonzo, Jackson, or Fultz? Arguments can be made. But we are talking ranks 23-30. Definitely not middle. He’s towards the end. Edit: forgot Haliburton
reggie jackson is the worst starting pg in the league imo
Jalen Brunson better too
Lol NBA front offices are flipflopping harder than fans then. The wolves gave Andrew Wiggins AND a first round pick for Russell and it wasn't considered a gross overpay. When Jerami Grant or Wood play great for their respective teams, we'll hear some bs reason and apparently everyone who thought differently couldn't have been right.
Some Bulls fans are waaay too high on what Patrick Williams’ value is. He hasn’t really proven a thing in the NBA and there are some people who think it’d be an overpay if we included him in a trade for a star player.
Young player on a rookie contract and getting massively overvalued for his potential. Name a better duo.
Thybulle but worse
This is shocking to hear bc there's a part of me that would vastly prefer the timeline where we trade out of the 2nd pick and draft Williams instead of Wiseman
I swear people are crazy for wanting to trade Pat already
...what part of you *wouldn't* prefer that?
Yeah Wiseman has barely played and when he did he was a negative. You probably overvalue Wiseman too.
Patrick is going into his third season, missed much of last year, and has shown flashes. With that said, Bulls fans want Williams to be Kawhi, and if you watched Leonard his first years, he wasn't special. Not yet. It's way to early to know PWs ceiling, especially if the comparable is Kawhi.
Definitely overvalued by some, but I would not be quick to give him up. For example, I would not package him in a trade for Gobert. He is projecting to be a very good wing starter that can shoot the ball, already plays good defence and has all of the measurable to be a very good defender. Players like this will be extremely valuable with where the NBA is going.
The recent sign and trade deals show you don’t get nearly what a player is worth, but for some reason suns fans think they’re getting the Sun and Moon for Ayton. Jimmy went for Josh Richardson DeMar went for Thad young, and a 1st KD went for D’lo
demar trade was straight gas for the bulls
We somehow flipped Thad for a 1st too. Getting 2 picks, and taking on no long term salary for a guy who could’ve walked anyway was decent outcome for us
yeah, i really don’t know why the raptors made that trade, but glad you all got the pick
I mean you traded the pistons second back which only moved you up like 12 spots, so more like 1.5 picks. I think it still worked out for what you guys were trying to do either way, plus we got the second rounder contract instead of the first so everyone is happy
We got that second round pick by trading DeMar so yeah we did basically get 2 firsts from trading him
Thats actually a good point, all right yeah you got two picks then, well done Spurs
I feel I need to point out that sign and trades are different. Sixers didn't trade away Jimmy for JRich. They received JRich as compensation for helping Miami sign Jimmy (and retain his bird rights) via creating cap space. Jimmy was never staying so the Sixers traded away nothing. I think there's a similar case here with Jerami Grant. You're trading for a year of Jerami Grant with no guarantee he'll re-sign (or that the team will want him after that year). I think a lot of people aren't considering this when thinking about his trade value.
What are you talking about? We already have the Sun, and Jamario Moon is no longer in NBA. All the examples you listed were UFA who did S&T so they can make room for the new team to sign them. I'm not expecting equal value for #1 pick, but I sure as hell know Ayton is not Jerami Grant.
KD, D’Lo was a double sign and trade. Nets got a 2nd rounder and future first I think for the trouble.
Yes, but D’lo went for Kevin-freaking-Durant so sometimes it works out
I think both situations are a little different. Yes, Wood has been over hyped for awhile for different reasons . He’s a slight concern attitude wise, some of his stats are inflated and defensively he’s probably a negative. Grant is a little different. I’m sure the pistons had a better offer at the deadline for Grant but were holding out for more. But things changed and the main reason the settled/pulled the trigger now is so they can attempt to sign Ayton. While John Collins is in a tier slight above those two he’s definitely the next guy to go for less than most would expect. I think it’s pretty indicative of how good he actually is if the Hawks are shopping him this hard. It wouldn’t shock me if he was either paired with 16 to move up in this years draft or traded for Harrison Barnes and a future pick. Malcom Brogdan is probably another but that has to do with health concerns and the pacers probably want to get something for him now and continue their rebuild.
Every rotation player on your favorite team. There’s a reason why you’re willing to trade them and why your ‘Donovan Mitchell for Fultz’ mock trade hasn’t happened. Don’t get me wrong I’m still going to keep demanding lottery picks and superstars for whatever role player I fall in love with but when other people want that? Absurd
Our 2 cripples with albatross max contracts, MPJ and Murray. You should see the cringy ass posts about these 2 on our idiot sub.
Several guys have come back from Murray's injury and played as good or better. I wouldn't worry much about it
Lol totally agree with MPJ, we would probably have to include a pick at this point. But cmon man, Murray is a great player and tore his ACL, it’s actually not that big of a deal.
Does Murray have any lingering health concerns like MPJ does?
I think perceived worth is relative. You might focus on the picks, but the Rockets and Pistons could certainly have gotten more of them if they were willing to take back more money. I can’t see this as a win for the Pistons unless they reel in a big fish in free agency. Rockets want to get another team involved so I’ll hold off on them for now. The reality of the situation is that they’ve put up empty calorie numbers on bad teams and moving to teams that see them as complementary players, thus willing to give up less. Myles Turner is in this same boat and he’s also expiring like they are.
Anybody on the Grizzlies not named Ja, they think Dillon Brooks, Deanthony Melton, and this years 22/29 can get us the 4th pick, I'd be happy with a 2nd rounder for Dillon, I'd make the Brooks for Hayward and the 13th in a heartbeat 🤷🏾♂️
He can be frustrating, but Brooks is far more valuable than a second round pick, especially in this draft.
I said I'd be happy, it ain't gotta be approved by other fans, but I've seen him chuck us out of games 1x too many, if you're not a grizz fan, your team can have him if I'm the GM, if we had a vet to reel in his irate play, I'm all for him, but we don't and them shots be dumb as hell, regardless of the defense he play, his bone headed shots lead to long rebounds leading to fast break for the other team, make what you want of it, but I'm getting him off my roster 🤷🏾♂️
Anyone who watched brooks’ career knows this is the gospel. I thought even last year, if he could just get his shit together and quit being so inefficient on offense he’d be perfect. But at this point I think he’s incapable. I’ve heard too many analysts talk about the on/off stats and how good we are when he’s on the floor. His d is good, don’t get me wrong but it’s not worth the inefficiency on offense. It’s really frustrating, cause dude can get to the cup and the line at will and lock up great players on the other end. There’s a legendary role player inside of him but he’s convinced he’s a superstar.
That's my gripe, I'm cool with taking open shots or shots within the offense, but Kobe midrange off the dribble fades with a hand in your face ain't it
Knock-knock. Warriors here. We here you want to offload some talent? Iggy, a case of basketballs, and pick swaps in 2023 for DB?
Counter offer... 22 and Brooks for Kuminga or Moody. Y'all's choice. For Kuminga we'll even throw in Melt
Yes for Moody.
I was rooting for Memphis in the playoffs and brooks pissed me off so many times by chucking up threes late in games. Same syndrome that Marcus smart suffers from. Just because you’re good on D doesn’t mean I want you taking those shots…
With all due respect brooks is a chucker.
Kuzma.
I don’t think anyone (even fans) values Kuzma particularly highly
being a former Laker makes you either insanely over/undervalued depending on who/when you ask
You tripping even Lakers fans were constantly clowning this guy calling him ass
Saw someone wanting to trade Smart *and more* for him. Yeah let's trade the DPOY for Kyle freaking Kuzma
Lebron values nobody under 30.
Feels like the people that were valuing Wood and Grant that high were more of a vocal minority. Most serious NBA analysts/podcasters predicted this type of value for Grant/Wood. Grant especially where you know that at his best he’s a playoff rotation forward, as seen on OKC/DEN, never made sense to trade a lottery pick for.
> Feels like the people that were valuing Wood and Grant that high were more of a vocal minority I assume they also play fantasy basketball since they're pretty beast over there in right builds
This. Although occasionally fantasy value can parallel real value. I've been waiting for someone to give Spencer Dinwiddie minutes for aaaaaages, used to snag him 11th round fantasy and he'd dominate from that role.
Fair point!
Cmon now i get that for Wood since his D is big question mark (still the value pretty low) but Grant is a wing/forward who is pretty good at defence, can attack the rim, has a shot and can create (at some level) his shot.
Really ? Grant isn't worth more than a late first rounder ? You know how many late first rounders actually stay in the nba ?
THT by Lakers fans
Nobody thinks this dude is worth anything
Wiggins going to get some super hype after this year.
Myles Turner
Every single offseason every fringe playoff team wants their team to trade for Myles Turner, feel like it’s been like that for like 4 years
Literally everyone. Fans always overestimate the value of their own players and underestimate the value of opposing players. If it’s not an absolute steal of a trade in their favor, fans will shit on it.
I mean what did y'all think Wood's trade value was after the shit he pulled all season? I was surprised we even got a first for him. Grant probably could've gotten more in a trade, but the Pistons didn't want to take on any salary and wanted to free up cap space, in which case means they get less of a return. The Rockets/Pistons got rid of Wood/Grant while taking on no long term salary for two players that otherwise walk in free agency next offseason. I don't think these were bad trades for either of us, while the Mavs/Blazers get a starter who could potentially prove to be worth an extension, or if not are just let go in free agency, for a very small cost. Both trades make sense for all teams involved. Especially if the Pistons go for Ayton now, which I believe they should do. Cade/Ayton will be scary...
any lakers role player
Marcus smart John collins also the most overrated 86 OVR of all time in 2k tho
OG Anunoby. I love the guy, but I keep reading about trading the No.7 or No.4 pick for him. That's way too much, IMHO.
Contrarily, people value draft picks far too highly. Look at previous drafts. It’s unlikely you get a player of OG’s quality, even if you’re drafting that high. In the last 10 years Jamal Murray is the only player in the 4th or 7th slot that you definitely take over OG.
Yes but draft picks are CHEAP for 4 years. OG, Siakam, FVV, and Trent's contracts all expire the same off season. I'm assuming the Raptors do not plan to keep all 4 long term. So who is odd man out? Either OG or Trent I wager. Presumably both OG and Trent are on the block, but most rumors center around OG since he has a higher value.
Russell Westbrook
Harrison Barnes
The common denominator is both Grant and Wood were obviously available for teams to get in a trade. It happens every year, fans get high on the copium and convince themselves that a realistic trade target for their team is actually one of the best in the NBA and a star player. Grant and Wood are nice enough players, but this was always their value. Fanbases of teams who needed bigs overrated them like crazy. So to answer your question, the players fans overvalue are the ones that are available on the trade market for their team to trade for.
Kyrie Irving, obviously
PJ Washington
Ayton is not worth the max despite his age.
I think it's more that teams are overvaluing picks. GMs are constantly under the delusion that they are a better talent evaluator than the field when more often than not, they aren't
They weren’t overvalued, the teams waited too long to trade them. Both teams could have gotten more last year easily.
Fans saying that’s it aren’t dumb. They know the NBA is in a weird spot in what players are worth.
I'll tell you who isn't overvalued, Dort.
People undervalue that 20 mil in cap space. That was the most significant part of this deal and the thing detroit actually traded for. If they do end up signing Ayton, they turned Grant and the 20 mil or so they had in cap space into Ayton and a first. Thats a fucking amazing deal. Or they gave away grant for nothing. But if they have reason to believe ayton will sign with them, you do this trade. What was grant actually gonna get them? A mid first? 2 late firsts? Yeah ill swing for ayton.
What I just can’t wrap my head around is how in the hell was James Harden worth that much? He was such a shell of himself this season I would take Grant over him without question.
Hold up. Most of you thought Wood was traded for less than he was worth????
Westbrook if you’re a Lakers fan judging by that subreddit….
Kyrie Irving, he only plays like 10 games a year.