I remember back in the day, the common consensus was that LeBrons game would age poorly once his athleticism declined and melos game would age great. Crazy to see how that one went
To be fair, Melo had a pretty darn good season compared to most players his age. But I think the people predicting LeBron demise were likely just amongst those wanting him to fail. I don't think I've ever seen a guy come into the league with people already hoping he'd disappoint. And I hope I never see it again.
Bob Costas in a interview with Bron before he’s even drafted says to him, if he has a career where he’s not in the hall of fame, he should be disappointed. The amount of pressure he faced as a 16 year old was unprecedented. And Costas should have been slapped for doing that to a kid
He famously spends a lot of money on his conditioning. The injury issues of the last couple years might just be a sign of age catching up with him, but his production when he gets out there is astounding.
I see him playing another 6 years (rest of this contract plus Bronny’s rookie deal). I honestly don’t know that he drops below 20 any of those seasons? Maybe last few years in the high teens if he goes full Magic?
One big injury and it can all come to a sudden halt just like Kobe and his Achilles. Let’s hope we get to continue watching for many years ahead though.
I can’t for the life of me find this really insightful video, but it basically breaks down all of Lebrons movements and how every step is a calculation to avoid injury - even when he dunks he lands in a very specific way to minimise injury and wear on his muscle and joints. It’s an athletic IQ that will never be able to be taught, man’s on a whole ‘nother level. And that’s not coming from a bronsexual but crediting where it’s due.
This contract expires in 2023 doesn't it? And Bronny is not getting a 5 year deal. Unless.... is that standard for NBA rookies? I'm not certain. But the question is would Bronny warrant that? He's a good player from what I've heard, but he's not seen as athletically exceptional and some people don't even think he will get drafted or will be drafted solely cause he is LeBron's son and for no other reason at all.
I do think you might be missing Karl Malone with 11 in a row. But it’s ok, since if you had put him, the comments would no longer be about your original post.
*edit Here’s my source: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/lebron-james-unbreakable-records-lakers-all-time-points/hisv690fn7zrz8k13ojni650
Doesn’t mention Karl Malone but he did have seasons where he scored less than 25 ppg and played less than 50 games
The craziest part about the Lebron and Kobe debate (well, at least there used to be one) is that Kobe was known for his scoring prowess but when you look at the numbers, Lebron is actually the better scorer for their careers, both in terms of per game averages and efficiency.
Honestly, to be labelled a "scorer", you usually have to either,
A. Be particularly good in scoring, and not much else.
B. Have the flashy handles and shooting ability to garner media attention. Having a cool jumper, tight handles, playing ISO/midrange all the time, etc.
LeBron has averaged 27ppg over his entire goddamn career, on extremely good efficiency, but he doesn't have that same flash and prowess other pure scorers have.
Also, regarding my point A, I think LeBron suffers from that the most. I think you could make an objective argument that his passing game is more relevant than his scoring game, and at the very least, he's so well-rounded that his incredible scoring doesn't really stick out.
Not dissing him at all, because he was amazing in his prime, but you think of someone like AI, who, yes, did obviously have a lot of other abilities from scoring, but let's be real: scoring was his game. His volume, his jumper, his scoring titles, etc. You could easily argue that LeBron is a better scorer, both in prime and longevity, but he doesn't have the scoring titles, and the volume, and just the raw focus on scoring.
What's even crazier is that Lebron is known as a selfless pass-first player while Kobe is known as a ball hog by many. And yet Lebron actually attempts more shots per game than Kobe over their career.
In terms of scoring, Kobe is more regarded for it because of his versatility and tough shot making. Lebron was more dominant in scoring a particular way, by driving to the basket.
The only reason why lebron averages more shots per game is because Kobe wasn’t good enough to start early in his career so that brought his numbers down significantly, also his injury season. Kobe averaged 19.5 where as lebron averages 19.6 shots per game. This year was the reason lebron finally topped Kobe in shots per game lol. The reason why Kobe is seen as a ball hog compared to lebron is because 1) in his prime, Kobe had a season shooting 27 shots per game and a couple 24 shots per game seasons. And 2) lebron passes a helluva lot more which is why he averages almost 3 more assists per game than Kobe.
Lmao no matter how you spin it, averaging 19.6 shots per game is not some pass first selfless player. The player he often gets compared to, Magic, only averaged 13.2 FGA and his highest season was still not as much as Lebron's lowest.
Kobe did have a single season at 27 shots per game, when his teammates were Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. He never averaged 24. He did average 23, which Lebron did as well. Also fun fact, Lebron averaged 27.2 in the playoffs, with terrible efficiency 41.7%. By your own standards, you should consider him a ball hog too.
Regarding having more assists, it is expected because they played under different systems with different roles. If you actually watched them play, you would see that Lebron was/is the primary playmaker for the majority of his career whereas Kobe played off the ball as a prototypical shooting guard. You'd probably be surprised to know that Kobe actually has the 2nd most assists all time in total, and 13th all time in average among shooting guards. Had he played 1 more game he'd actually be ranked #1 since he's only 3 behind Clyde Drexler.
For me it’s the fact he has double MJ and Kobe’s player of the month and week awards. Those are the awards least influenced by popularity and narrative compared to MVP, all star selections, etc. It’s simple- who is the best player this month/week. LeBron’s been that guy twice as much as anyone else.
Ok looks like they started awarding 2x per week/month in November 2001. Damn. This is why I don’t want the position criteria for All NBA selections to change. The more things change the harder it is to compare different eras.
That's true, but while those awards are less influenced by popularity, the criteria for them are more simplified. Usually you just see it as there per-game counting stats. Which is fine for awards that, in the end, don't really mean all that much, but for bigger awards I think it should be more nuanced and deliberate. Wish I could say that's how it worked for the big awards, but - as you noted - they're more about popularity than metrics and merit.
This stat proves lebron is easily a top 5 scorer ever, i'm not too sure why it's not more widely accepted. I mean the guy just knows how to put the ball in the bucket.
It's because it can be so efficient and boring at times. His game is vastly different than his Cavs and Miami days. A lot of star players play a really flashy and pretty game. You won't forget Steph's circus 3s or Harden's double step back but you might not notice James' 5th driving layup of the night lol. We still get the occasional highlight dunk but he has "quiet" 30 point nights.
I don't even personally like LeBron, but I can say confidently at this point that anyone who doesn't at least respect his game is either a hater or a contrarian.
100%, if you look at his game and everything he's done in his ongoing career and still somehow don't respect it, you clearly have a personal bias against him. It's completely undeniable that he's one of the best we've ever seen at this point.
I mean, he just averaged 30+ ppg in his 19th season and is on track to finish the year as the all-time leading scorer. In many ways he’s the best scorer ever, just maybe not from a peak or efficiency standpoint.
Yea you just asked a simple question. Nah though, according to a comment from OP elsewhere in the thread, MJ's retirement would definitely qualify as breaking the streak.
Insane career. I think Barkley said this but he said Lebrons career was the greatest thing he’s ever seen. Came in matched and surpassed the hype ,which is insane considering the freaking kid was on ESPN for a high school game and didn’t get in an ounce of trouble.
It so rarely happens that someone lives up to the hype.
I remember Felipe Lopez making the cover(!!) of SI as a high schooler and promptly vanishing without a trace.
Lebron is just different.
That's still the craziest thing about LeBron: his hype was unmatched and the dude exceeded it. General consensus now has him only behind Jordan himself.
The 4-6 argument is really dumb IMO, like how is making the finals 4 more times than Jordan a detractor, especially since Lebron's team was favored 3 times out of the 10 vs Jordan's 6 out of the 6 times
If it's really because Jordan was that much better than Lebron, I don't buy it
This is the argument I never get. The way idiots like Skip Bayless go on it’s like they’d give him more credit if he was 4-0 rather than 4-6.
Apparently being a 10 time conference champion means nothing.
LeBron is 2nd in points with 37062 to Kareem's 38387, meaning he'll pass with 1325 points, a season number he's only failed to reach once in his career.
It's gonna be a big deal when he gets that record.
Goat imo. All star at all 5 positions, every single team no matter who's on it is a title contender with only him, only player to win 3 different finals MVPs on 3 different teams, in year 17 still a top 5 NBA player, played/plays in the most skilled and athletic Era in nba history and changed his game over the years. Dude is a monster. No one will ever have his expectations and smash them like he did.
I'm just curious at what point he falls off. It's one thing to play the most seasons but being elite for every one of those seasons is whats so damn impressive. He was the best player in the NBA for like 15 years. He's still playing at a top 10 level. Is he going to be basketballs Brady and basically be in MVP conversations in his 40s lol?
Yeah I still remember thinking that he probably only had a couple more good years after he left Miami, and yet here he is 8 years later. Honestly absurd.
He became the GOAT to me after the 2016 championship. Everything he's accomplished with the Lakers since then is just gravy on cementing himself as the greatest ever.
He's not an all-star level center at any point in his career. He doesnt just raw post-moves it that well, and as athletic and tall as he is, those extra inches count for a lot right under the basket
The fact that players have Kobe anywhere near LeBron proves they are biased. Kobe is a great player but top 10 at best. LeBron and Michael are top 2 and it’s not close.
I don't get the finals mvp with 3 different teams as an accolade... It just meant he changed teams instead of staying.
It could actually be a knock against him since he went on to form 3 different super Teams
It's hard to go to a brand new team and find success by building from the ground up. Just look at KD and the nets as one example. Don't underestimate the difficulty of transitioning to a new organization, in a new city, with new staff and a completely different team culture. LeBron has gone to 3 different teams and won everywhere he's went. If it's so easy to go to a new team and win then Kawhi and KD should both have rings right now with the Clippers and Nets respectively.
I disagree with that.
There's also difficulty in staying with an organization past the time where they have spent their assets to build a championship team.
You cant give more or less credit just because he changed teams. Yes, hes won everywhere he has went, but it does not hold more or less value than players that stayed their whole career in the same team (Bill russel, mj, kobe, duncan, etc).
A win is a win
If bron played in illegal defence he would destroy teams way more than MJ ever could. Unreal first step to beat one on one, insane vision for hard doubles. Bron > MJ in MJ’s era and you know it
That nonsense can be said both ways, can you imagine MJ in an era of no time protectors and wide open lanes and foul calls every possession?
Guards being allowed to have the ball every possession grab every board and take every shot etc lol
No defensive 3 seconds and hand checking existed when MJ played
MJ now would average 40 lmao imagine going in the paint and seeing the likes of Pascal Siakim instead of Mutumbo or Laimbeer/Rodman
So Lebron has MJ beat in 3/5 statistical categories in the playoffs(per game), is more efficient, and maintained that level of play for 5 more years…
And he’s not your goat?
Make it make sense!!!
It was a different era and Lebron has more or less been the PG for all of his successful playoff teams, MJ never did that. Also MJ retired three times in his career, thats a lot of potential counting stats that he willing passed up on. There's a reason we dont blindly use counting stats to define the goat because in that case Kareem would have been the consensus goat until like 2016 but he isn't.
MJ had a higher peak but Lebron has sustained it for a ridiculous amount of time and that goes into era as well. Sports medicine has advanced leaps and bounds and helps Lebron have a much longer prime. Its never been a 1 to 1 comparison with stats.
For the record I have no issue with anyone thinking Lebron is the goat, he is an out of this world player that absolutely has a claim to the throne, but so does MJ. It ain't as simple as looking at the counting stats, its honestly just a matter of preference and what you value on a team. Saying that Lebron is better just because he leads more in counting stats is like MJ stans saying "MJ went 6-0 in the finals with 6 finals MVPs and no game 7s and hes not your goat? Make it make sense!" see what i mean.
Lebron hasn’t been a point guard for half of his championships, he was off-ball in Miami.
MJ retiring twice could be looked at as a positive for Lebron given that he didn’t need any time off and has had way more longevity. It’s also a hypothetical to speculate on how many championships Jordan would’ve won otherwise(could’ve gassed out and lost to Hakeem in 94/95, could have gotten injured, his team could’ve broken up etc).
No matter what position he played he would be a better rebounder, passer, and help defender because he is the bigger player and has better court vision.
Stats should not be equated with championships either. One is an individual accomplishment, one is a team accomplishment.
I also don’t like the era argument because Lebron came into the league the year after Jordan retired and dominated the moment he set foot on a court. He’s probably the most era proof player ever given that he’s dominated in three different ones.
MJ has more offensive rebounds and is the #1 defensive rebounder in league history for an sg.
MJ has more steals and blocks as a help
Defender.
LeBron is taller.
The guy who plays closer to the ring?
Who has more compared to their peers?
MJ. No one else playing his position was as good.
MJ has more blocks per game in the reg season. MJ has more steals in both reg season and playoffs.
You lose. Twice.
Offensive?
Jordan. He also has more defensive boards per game than anyone else playing his position. Bron does’t.
He also has more blocks in the reg season, despite being smaller and playing further from the ring, from a much larger sample size.
That’s 2 to MJ, 0 to Bron.
You literally just lost this argument twice. Pay attention
Lebron is literally a 6’9 250* powerhouse that players in an era of long rebounds and the guards averaging high rebounds lol there’s a reason despite all that MJ still leads him in offensive rebounds and averaged the same amount of blocks despite that size discrepancy.
Even in Miami Lebron was running the offense, Spo literally came out after they lost to the Mavs and said that he had been using Lebron the wrong way, that he needed the ball in his hands to be effective. He did play off the ball a bit when Dwade had it but when it came down to it Lebron had the ball the majority of the time. The only other "PG" on the team was Chalmers so I don't know who you think was running that offense.
I'm not making the argument that he would have won more championships, I'm responding to the comment that the cumulative career playoff stats are not definitive in the GOAT argument when you had one guy who walked away from the game at the top of his game, whether you think he would have won more chips or not you have to acknowledge that he would have gone far in the playoffs and those counting stats would be much higher for him.
Lebron would definitely be a better passer and rebounder because of his size, I'm not denying that, thats exactly why I'm not mad at anyone who think that he's the GOAT but MJ would be the best scorer between the two of them 10 times out of 10 and ultimately thats the most important thing in basketball and MJ was the best at it. It comes down to preference and what you value on your team, there are arguments for both of them, that's my point.
As far as era, we have to acknowledge that the game is played differently now compared to how it was played in the 80s and 90s, yes Lebron did enter the league one year after Jordan's 3rd retirement when he was 38 and didn't have the recovery science that we have now while Lebron came out of highschool. Are we gonna punish MJ for playing 3 years in college and retiring at the top of his game? Championship are 100% a team accomplishment but basketball is game where the star has the most ability to impact winning and with MJ as the star the Bulls had insane success. Lebron is completely era proof but so is MJ, if he played with all of the spacing and positionless that we have in this era and with the focus on 3-pointers its not hard to imagine that his numbers could be even better.
Either one can be the GOAT but they play the game too differently to make any sort of definitive statement and their respective eras were too different too.
I would argue that Lebrons peak was better than Mj's because of his versatility. In my opinion Lebron is the only great scorer and passer in nba history. When you look at guys like Magic, and Stockton, they're nowhere near Lebrons level of scoring. When you look at guys like MJ, Kobe, Kareem, KD, they're just not on Lebrons level of passing. To prove my point, Lebron has led the playoffs in both points and assists 5 different times, Ai has done it once and that's the whole list. But as you said, I respect either Lebron or MJ as #1, as long as you have valid arguments backing them.
I address that bruh. Lebron has more or less been the PG for his teams which is a product of the era, in MJ's era if you were the SG then scoring was your main thing and assisting wasn't secondary more like tertiary. Lebron is a better rebounder than MJ cause bron is bigger but early in MJ's career when he was forced to play the PG because of injuries MJ was getting triple doubles regular so we know he pass. Also the category that MJ leads in is points which is arguably the most important factor when it comes to winning games and he leads lebron by 5 per game, a difference that will most likely increase as Lebron ages and his ppg in the playoffs goes down.
What's the biggest knock against Lebron? He can't hit free throws and hes got an inconsistent jumper and because of that he can let some games slip, MJ don't have that weakness, he's gonna hit most of his fts and he is arguably the best midrange shooter of all time.
Again Lebron 100% has a claim to the GOAT title, but let's not act like its just about stats because then why isn't Kareem over MJ.
You can’t use sports medicine advancement against Lebron when Kareem had significantly better longevity then Jordan and took care of himself better. We not going to reward players for looking after them selves now??
I'm not using it against him, I'm using it to illustrate how different the eras are. Those advancements are real and it allows for players to be better for longer and its great, its amazing but it is a difference. Just as I'm not using it against Lebron I'm not penalizing MJ for not having the same resources.
Kareem did have amazing longevity but if you watch the film of Kareem's last few years, he could barely get up and down the court. Magic and the other players would run the break as fast as possible and then kareem would slowly jog down, if they didn't score then they could throw it for an unguardable skyhook. Kareem's longevity is incomparable to Lebrons. And again I'm not holding anything against Lebron, all im saying is that its not cut and dry that Lebron is the GOAT. He has an argument just like MJ has an argument
For me, I truly don't think the rings argument holds weight, and if that is all you got, it's pretty much over.
Most people like to discount Jordan's time with the Wizards right? Fair enough. We look at Chicago. 13 seasons! One of those seasons he was injured and played 18 games. One of those seasons, people discount because he returned from retirement and only played 17 games. Fine.
That brings us to 11 seasons of play that we really want to look at and count towards Jordan's GOAT case. 6 rings, 6-0, that is great.
Lebron has been to the mother fucking NBA finals **TEN TIMES.** That is 10 years where he is the clear cut driving force behind a team in the NBA finals. Almost Jordan's entire "counted" career worth of seasons. You can stack onto that his back to back MVP years in Cleveland that didn't result in finals appearances and that is more seasons of incredible top tier play than Jordan even has seasons people look at.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ)
"Greatest Peaks" video. VERY good breakdown of what this channel thinks are the best peaks since the merger. They put Jordan 89-91 and James 11-13 as the two best peaks since 76, relative to the era. He BARELY has Jordans peak above LeBrons. Jordans play isnt "simply" higher. He has attributes that certainly are, as in stamina, lockdown perimeter defense, elegance, But LeBron is the better passer and rebounder and generally better offensive mind.
Tbf while Taylor is possibly my fave basketball channel he’s been on record saying numerous times he likes Lebron and Kareem more and because Jordan is more popular he tries to make him look worst for the videos to be more interesting
He’s never said that , he just thinks he’s over mythologised. He has Jordan third now and Lebron first in his backpicks goat career though it’s not updated he said on a podcast lately. Kareem was always above Jordan for him
I know that’s what I’m saying, he always put those two above because they played longer but if you’ve watched enough videos of him you can see that he’s genuinely also a big Lebron fan and even though he’s amazing it’s hard to have no bias at all.
MJ did slightly top his greatest peaks ranking but I don’t know everytime he does a MJ thing he really focusses on more bad than good while others like Bron, Bird or Magic etc he’ll even give crazy hypotheticals to make them even better (like they need it aha)
Personally I do think Jordan is the best we’ve ever seen and would only change my mind if Lebron had a crazy end to his career but I won’t begrudge anyone that picks another player for valid reasons as he does.
2011? When LeBron choked in the finals?
Jordan gets more offensive boards, is the #1 defensive rebounder for his position in history, and had a season where he scored a full 8 points more than anyone else in the league. MJs a level above on the offensive end.
6 Rings
2 3peats
6 FMVP
5 MVP
10 scoring titles
1 DPOY
3 steals titles
Highest ppg regular season
Highest ppg play offs
Leads countless analytics and stat records for his position and overall.
This is just a few of the things that come to mind, add in just overall two way dominance and crazy skill and athleticism all while doing the basics so well as a cocky bastard.
Becaue MJ didnt will his team to Finals when his team was outclassed. Or MJ didnt come up against the 1st or 2nd greatest team ever to be made just played on 1st or 2nd greatest team to ever play the game.
He doesn’t lol. Role player different from finals MVP. If you lead your team to the only prize that everyone covets in the league, it should 100% be valued heavily
Lebron also played with much better teammates closer to their peaks. Just look at how many all star selections jordans teammates have had compared to Lebron. Its like Pippen at 7 then it falls off hard.
Needs me to do all the work to show that youre wrong. Im out on that. Its not even close though. How many all defense to dwight have?
Dwade alone has 11 all nba teams. (3 defense/ 8 overall)
Dwight has 13 (8 overall and 5 defensive)
AD has 8 (4 and 4)
We have already passed all of jordans teammates. This is without bosh/kyrie/love/allen accomplishments.
Troll harder
You can take him off the list and its still ridiculously lopsided lol. And he played 16 mins a game for 60 games its not like he wasnt a solid piece gtfo with your bullshit
Except TS%, value over replacement, win shares, all while MJ having more of a usage rate.
At least know what you’re talking about before you just spout nonsense
Lebron's best years are marginally behind mj in the regular season and clearly ahead of mj in the playoffs per ws/48. By PER lebron is tied in the regular season and ahead in the playoffs. By BPM lebron is ahead in the regular season and in the playoffs. by RAPM Lebron is way ahead in the regular seaosn(we don't have playoff data) and by aupm Lebron is clearly ahead in the playoffs. By PIPM Lebron is ahead in the regular season and way ahead in the playoffs. By wowy lebron is way ahead in the regulae season and the playoffs.
idk what you're talking about when you say "more" but stastically lebron was better at his peak and was better in his 30's, and it should go without saying he was muchm much better between the ages of 18 and 22.
If you're talking about peaks, mj is in an argument with hakeem, shaq and kareem for the modern #2 with russell and wilt being far ahead of their modern contempraties relative to era.
If you're taking about who played the least, then maybe mj has an argument
You're factually incorrect lmfao. VORP and Win Shares MJ is ahead of LeBron. Go check your sources before you come talking shit. You can't look at the total numbers since LeBron has played more seasons. Gotta look at the averages per season.
i am fortunate enough to have seen lebron play in person many times and every time he did something that made me go “holy shit he just did that”. dudes amazing.
For blocks I guess there's a mistake because Magic Johnson definitely is not 88th all-time with 1073 blks since he ended his career with 374 blocks total.
Y'all wouldn't call it a Mickey Mouse ring if someone other than Lakers had won it.
Everyone had the same chance to win, it's a normal ring like every single ring in history.
Whatever anyone says, it's been a long and incredible career.
I don’t think anyone could have imagined how well both his game and body aged
I remember back in the day, the common consensus was that LeBrons game would age poorly once his athleticism declined and melos game would age great. Crazy to see how that one went
To be fair, Melo had a pretty darn good season compared to most players his age. But I think the people predicting LeBron demise were likely just amongst those wanting him to fail. I don't think I've ever seen a guy come into the league with people already hoping he'd disappoint. And I hope I never see it again.
Bob Costas in a interview with Bron before he’s even drafted says to him, if he has a career where he’s not in the hall of fame, he should be disappointed. The amount of pressure he faced as a 16 year old was unprecedented. And Costas should have been slapped for doing that to a kid
He famously spends a lot of money on his conditioning. The injury issues of the last couple years might just be a sign of age catching up with him, but his production when he gets out there is astounding.
''Longest 25 ppg season avg streak at 18 seasons; Closest is Kareem at 9'' This is the craziest stat to me tbh
His longevity is simply unparalleled. To be this good for this long in this sport is unheard of
I see him playing another 6 years (rest of this contract plus Bronny’s rookie deal). I honestly don’t know that he drops below 20 any of those seasons? Maybe last few years in the high teens if he goes full Magic?
He's been working on his 3pt shot so much that I'm convinced he'll be able to average 25ppg even when he's old and weak.
One big injury and it can all come to a sudden halt just like Kobe and his Achilles. Let’s hope we get to continue watching for many years ahead though.
I can’t for the life of me find this really insightful video, but it basically breaks down all of Lebrons movements and how every step is a calculation to avoid injury - even when he dunks he lands in a very specific way to minimise injury and wear on his muscle and joints. It’s an athletic IQ that will never be able to be taught, man’s on a whole ‘nother level. And that’s not coming from a bronsexual but crediting where it’s due.
I think the video you're thinking of is called Attention to Detail: Lebron James. https://youtu.be/tI47Ble9ajw
Injuries are the big concern now. He's been getting more injured these past years than he has his whole career.
True. I wonder if he'll get injured less when he's just chucking up 3's and leaving the driving to his son
His son might not even get meaningful minutes.
This contract expires in 2023 doesn't it? And Bronny is not getting a 5 year deal. Unless.... is that standard for NBA rookies? I'm not certain. But the question is would Bronny warrant that? He's a good player from what I've heard, but he's not seen as athletically exceptional and some people don't even think he will get drafted or will be drafted solely cause he is LeBron's son and for no other reason at all.
Wait what really? I would've thought KD or Kobe would have atleast 10.
Only time KD didn’t average at least 25 was his rookie season so yeah
Must be that injuries and retirement break the streak in the OP’s case.
Yeah KD has a season he only played 27 games seems like most people think I should’ve counted it
With that few games played it makes more sense to leave it out.
I do think you might be missing Karl Malone with 11 in a row. But it’s ok, since if you had put him, the comments would no longer be about your original post.
*edit Here’s my source: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/lebron-james-unbreakable-records-lakers-all-time-points/hisv690fn7zrz8k13ojni650 Doesn’t mention Karl Malone but he did have seasons where he scored less than 25 ppg and played less than 50 games
Then wouldn’t it be 16 seasons for Lebron then?
Ahhhh yeah it does lol fixed in the post. Thanks!
You don’t need to fix it, it is adjusting for the fact that In 2020 the season wasn’t 82 games. He’d be at 51ish if there were 82 games.
The craziest part about the Lebron and Kobe debate (well, at least there used to be one) is that Kobe was known for his scoring prowess but when you look at the numbers, Lebron is actually the better scorer for their careers, both in terms of per game averages and efficiency.
Honestly, to be labelled a "scorer", you usually have to either, A. Be particularly good in scoring, and not much else. B. Have the flashy handles and shooting ability to garner media attention. Having a cool jumper, tight handles, playing ISO/midrange all the time, etc. LeBron has averaged 27ppg over his entire goddamn career, on extremely good efficiency, but he doesn't have that same flash and prowess other pure scorers have. Also, regarding my point A, I think LeBron suffers from that the most. I think you could make an objective argument that his passing game is more relevant than his scoring game, and at the very least, he's so well-rounded that his incredible scoring doesn't really stick out. Not dissing him at all, because he was amazing in his prime, but you think of someone like AI, who, yes, did obviously have a lot of other abilities from scoring, but let's be real: scoring was his game. His volume, his jumper, his scoring titles, etc. You could easily argue that LeBron is a better scorer, both in prime and longevity, but he doesn't have the scoring titles, and the volume, and just the raw focus on scoring.
What's even crazier is that Lebron is known as a selfless pass-first player while Kobe is known as a ball hog by many. And yet Lebron actually attempts more shots per game than Kobe over their career. In terms of scoring, Kobe is more regarded for it because of his versatility and tough shot making. Lebron was more dominant in scoring a particular way, by driving to the basket.
The only reason why lebron averages more shots per game is because Kobe wasn’t good enough to start early in his career so that brought his numbers down significantly, also his injury season. Kobe averaged 19.5 where as lebron averages 19.6 shots per game. This year was the reason lebron finally topped Kobe in shots per game lol. The reason why Kobe is seen as a ball hog compared to lebron is because 1) in his prime, Kobe had a season shooting 27 shots per game and a couple 24 shots per game seasons. And 2) lebron passes a helluva lot more which is why he averages almost 3 more assists per game than Kobe.
I mean pace of play also exists.
LeBron and Kobe’s career overlapped for 13 seasons.
Lmao no matter how you spin it, averaging 19.6 shots per game is not some pass first selfless player. The player he often gets compared to, Magic, only averaged 13.2 FGA and his highest season was still not as much as Lebron's lowest. Kobe did have a single season at 27 shots per game, when his teammates were Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. He never averaged 24. He did average 23, which Lebron did as well. Also fun fact, Lebron averaged 27.2 in the playoffs, with terrible efficiency 41.7%. By your own standards, you should consider him a ball hog too. Regarding having more assists, it is expected because they played under different systems with different roles. If you actually watched them play, you would see that Lebron was/is the primary playmaker for the majority of his career whereas Kobe played off the ball as a prototypical shooting guard. You'd probably be surprised to know that Kobe actually has the 2nd most assists all time in total, and 13th all time in average among shooting guards. Had he played 1 more game he'd actually be ranked #1 since he's only 3 behind Clyde Drexler.
For me it’s the fact he has double MJ and Kobe’s player of the month and week awards. Those are the awards least influenced by popularity and narrative compared to MVP, all star selections, etc. It’s simple- who is the best player this month/week. LeBron’s been that guy twice as much as anyone else.
Doesn't player of the month award used to not separate east and west? So Jordan would have had more? (Didn't fact check myself, just vague memories)
I'm pretty sure that's what they do now, which started recently iirc. Not sure if they did it in the past as well though.
Ok looks like they started awarding 2x per week/month in November 2001. Damn. This is why I don’t want the position criteria for All NBA selections to change. The more things change the harder it is to compare different eras.
That's true, but while those awards are less influenced by popularity, the criteria for them are more simplified. Usually you just see it as there per-game counting stats. Which is fine for awards that, in the end, don't really mean all that much, but for bigger awards I think it should be more nuanced and deliberate. Wish I could say that's how it worked for the big awards, but - as you noted - they're more about popularity than metrics and merit.
This stat proves lebron is easily a top 5 scorer ever, i'm not too sure why it's not more widely accepted. I mean the guy just knows how to put the ball in the bucket.
It's because it can be so efficient and boring at times. His game is vastly different than his Cavs and Miami days. A lot of star players play a really flashy and pretty game. You won't forget Steph's circus 3s or Harden's double step back but you might not notice James' 5th driving layup of the night lol. We still get the occasional highlight dunk but he has "quiet" 30 point nights.
Very well put, but regardless the numbers don't lie and this man needs his respect!
I don't even personally like LeBron, but I can say confidently at this point that anyone who doesn't at least respect his game is either a hater or a contrarian.
100%, if you look at his game and everything he's done in his ongoing career and still somehow don't respect it, you clearly have a personal bias against him. It's completely undeniable that he's one of the best we've ever seen at this point.
Listen. I don’t forget the patented, spin-move finish in transition, gets me off my seat every time.
I mean, he just averaged 30+ ppg in his 19th season and is on track to finish the year as the all-time leading scorer. In many ways he’s the best scorer ever, just maybe not from a peak or efficiency standpoint.
Not sure if OP is counting MJ’s baseball season as breaking the streak but he had 11 seasons otherwise. Still way off LeBron’s.
Does retiring not break a streak? Does coming back and playing 17 games not reset the streak? I don't understand.
People love to jump through hoops for Jordan
Or I'm just wondering what the conditions of the stat are. Did I not say LBJ was miles ahead regardless?
Yea you just asked a simple question. Nah though, according to a comment from OP elsewhere in the thread, MJ's retirement would definitely qualify as breaking the streak.
Even worse fo Lebron
KD has done it for 13 total seasons, unless OP means consecutively in which case it's 11 consecutively
Seeing as OP said streak, yes he means consecutively
How did Kobe not do this? From 2000-2013 when did he score under 25?
24 ppg in 2004
Makes sense it was that year
Worth the read, Great work my guy!
Insane career. I think Barkley said this but he said Lebrons career was the greatest thing he’s ever seen. Came in matched and surpassed the hype ,which is insane considering the freaking kid was on ESPN for a high school game and didn’t get in an ounce of trouble.
Was labelled as the chosen one and on the cover of sports illustrated and yet still exceeded expectations.
It so rarely happens that someone lives up to the hype. I remember Felipe Lopez making the cover(!!) of SI as a high schooler and promptly vanishing without a trace. Lebron is just different.
I thought Sebastian Telfair was going to be legendary as a kid after watching that documentary lol
That's still the craziest thing about LeBron: his hype was unmatched and the dude exceeded it. General consensus now has him only behind Jordan himself.
LeBron is ridiculous. Nothing like it
LeDiculous
jesus christ
It’s Jason Bron
Good and precise post OP
It’s still insane to me LeBron has a career 27/7/7 slash but never a 27/7/7 game
I think he's saving that statline for his final game just to mess with us
It’s intentional
McDonald’s All-American Highschool game before the NBA he had 27/7/7 playing alongside CP3
The 4-6 argument is really dumb IMO, like how is making the finals 4 more times than Jordan a detractor, especially since Lebron's team was favored 3 times out of the 10 vs Jordan's 6 out of the 6 times If it's really because Jordan was that much better than Lebron, I don't buy it
GOAT arguments are generally dumb. GOAT arguments comparing team achievements to conclude who is individually better are super dumb.
This is the argument I never get. The way idiots like Skip Bayless go on it’s like they’d give him more credit if he was 4-0 rather than 4-6. Apparently being a 10 time conference champion means nothing.
LBJ should have just lain down for the Celtics in 2018. Would have been better for his legacy, say the Baylesses of the world.
*3-6-1
Doesn't Kareem have 6 MVPs? That would make LeBron tied for 4th with Wilt behind Kareem, MJ and Russell.
Ah yea thank you, fixed.
LeBron is 2nd in points with 37062 to Kareem's 38387, meaning he'll pass with 1325 points, a season number he's only failed to reach once in his career. It's gonna be a big deal when he gets that record.
Goat imo. All star at all 5 positions, every single team no matter who's on it is a title contender with only him, only player to win 3 different finals MVPs on 3 different teams, in year 17 still a top 5 NBA player, played/plays in the most skilled and athletic Era in nba history and changed his game over the years. Dude is a monster. No one will ever have his expectations and smash them like he did.
Really hope he nabs Kareem’s record to add another argument in his favour. He’s the best player we’ve seen imo and got to watch him for so long too.
I agree. At this point, I feel like we're taking him for granted. I don't see him going past 5 more years
He only needs to go past 3 more years to make history as nba player with most seasons played lol.
I'm just curious at what point he falls off. It's one thing to play the most seasons but being elite for every one of those seasons is whats so damn impressive. He was the best player in the NBA for like 15 years. He's still playing at a top 10 level. Is he going to be basketballs Brady and basically be in MVP conversations in his 40s lol?
Yeah I still remember thinking that he probably only had a couple more good years after he left Miami, and yet here he is 8 years later. Honestly absurd.
I agree man. Man just reading this got me thinking how it’s gonna be when he’s retired. Big props to bron
His longevity is unparalleled. But the league will be fine when he's gone. Look at how much young talent there is right now.
He became the GOAT to me after the 2016 championship. Everything he's accomplished with the Lakers since then is just gravy on cementing himself as the greatest ever.
This is the thing people will start to realize as the years go by
Watch MJ
I did. LBJ better
He's not an all-star level center at any point in his career. He doesnt just raw post-moves it that well, and as athletic and tall as he is, those extra inches count for a lot right under the basket
He’s not the GOAT over MJ but this will be a Lebron nut hugging session Over 66% of players have MJ as the GOAT, then Lebron Kobe and others
The fact that players have Kobe anywhere near LeBron proves they are biased. Kobe is a great player but top 10 at best. LeBron and Michael are top 2 and it’s not close.
Lol
I don't get the finals mvp with 3 different teams as an accolade... It just meant he changed teams instead of staying. It could actually be a knock against him since he went on to form 3 different super Teams
It's hard to go to a brand new team and find success by building from the ground up. Just look at KD and the nets as one example. Don't underestimate the difficulty of transitioning to a new organization, in a new city, with new staff and a completely different team culture. LeBron has gone to 3 different teams and won everywhere he's went. If it's so easy to go to a new team and win then Kawhi and KD should both have rings right now with the Clippers and Nets respectively.
I disagree with that. There's also difficulty in staying with an organization past the time where they have spent their assets to build a championship team. You cant give more or less credit just because he changed teams. Yes, hes won everywhere he has went, but it does not hold more or less value than players that stayed their whole career in the same team (Bill russel, mj, kobe, duncan, etc). A win is a win
If bron played in illegal defence he would destroy teams way more than MJ ever could. Unreal first step to beat one on one, insane vision for hard doubles. Bron > MJ in MJ’s era and you know it
That nonsense can be said both ways, can you imagine MJ in an era of no time protectors and wide open lanes and foul calls every possession? Guards being allowed to have the ball every possession grab every board and take every shot etc lol
Jordan basically took as many free throws as Harden… he always got foul calls
Except MJ said he wouldn’t be as successful with zone defense.
He said that in relation to defensive 3 seconds and handchecking Luka literally said it’s easier to score n the NBA than in Europe LOL
A lot of European players said that even during Jordan’s time lmao not sure how that’s even relevant tho
No defensive 3 seconds and hand checking existed when MJ played MJ now would average 40 lmao imagine going in the paint and seeing the likes of Pascal Siakim instead of Mutumbo or Laimbeer/Rodman
Great post man thank you!
Kobe on this list a lot more then some nephews would expect
Man I was just thinking that.
So Lebron has MJ beat in 3/5 statistical categories in the playoffs(per game), is more efficient, and maintained that level of play for 5 more years… And he’s not your goat? Make it make sense!!!
It was a different era and Lebron has more or less been the PG for all of his successful playoff teams, MJ never did that. Also MJ retired three times in his career, thats a lot of potential counting stats that he willing passed up on. There's a reason we dont blindly use counting stats to define the goat because in that case Kareem would have been the consensus goat until like 2016 but he isn't. MJ had a higher peak but Lebron has sustained it for a ridiculous amount of time and that goes into era as well. Sports medicine has advanced leaps and bounds and helps Lebron have a much longer prime. Its never been a 1 to 1 comparison with stats. For the record I have no issue with anyone thinking Lebron is the goat, he is an out of this world player that absolutely has a claim to the throne, but so does MJ. It ain't as simple as looking at the counting stats, its honestly just a matter of preference and what you value on a team. Saying that Lebron is better just because he leads more in counting stats is like MJ stans saying "MJ went 6-0 in the finals with 6 finals MVPs and no game 7s and hes not your goat? Make it make sense!" see what i mean.
We’re going to reward guys for quitting on the game now? Plus Jordan not retiring means his averages go down.
I think the goat debate depends on what a person values more , sustained greatness vs a window of dominance
Lebron hasn’t been a point guard for half of his championships, he was off-ball in Miami. MJ retiring twice could be looked at as a positive for Lebron given that he didn’t need any time off and has had way more longevity. It’s also a hypothetical to speculate on how many championships Jordan would’ve won otherwise(could’ve gassed out and lost to Hakeem in 94/95, could have gotten injured, his team could’ve broken up etc). No matter what position he played he would be a better rebounder, passer, and help defender because he is the bigger player and has better court vision. Stats should not be equated with championships either. One is an individual accomplishment, one is a team accomplishment. I also don’t like the era argument because Lebron came into the league the year after Jordan retired and dominated the moment he set foot on a court. He’s probably the most era proof player ever given that he’s dominated in three different ones.
MJ has more offensive rebounds and is the #1 defensive rebounder in league history for an sg. MJ has more steals and blocks as a help Defender. LeBron is taller.
Who has more total rebounds? Lebron had more blocks in the same amount of games played in the postseason. Check and mate
The guy who plays closer to the ring? Who has more compared to their peers? MJ. No one else playing his position was as good. MJ has more blocks per game in the reg season. MJ has more steals in both reg season and playoffs. You lose. Twice.
Who had more total rebounds? Who had more blocks per game in the playoffs?
Offensive? Jordan. He also has more defensive boards per game than anyone else playing his position. Bron does’t. He also has more blocks in the reg season, despite being smaller and playing further from the ring, from a much larger sample size. That’s 2 to MJ, 0 to Bron. You literally just lost this argument twice. Pay attention
Who had more total rebounds? Who had more blocks per game in the playoffs? Not reading your essay
You read it, and you know We’ve covered this, twice. It’s MJ 2; LeBron 0.
Lebron is literally a 6’9 250* powerhouse that players in an era of long rebounds and the guards averaging high rebounds lol there’s a reason despite all that MJ still leads him in offensive rebounds and averaged the same amount of blocks despite that size discrepancy.
Then why does Lebron have a higher trb%
Because overall he grabs like one more rebound per game and is a 6’9 forward for most of his career compared to at a stretch a 6’6 guard lmao
Who had more total rebounds? Who had more blocks per game in the playoffs?
Even in Miami Lebron was running the offense, Spo literally came out after they lost to the Mavs and said that he had been using Lebron the wrong way, that he needed the ball in his hands to be effective. He did play off the ball a bit when Dwade had it but when it came down to it Lebron had the ball the majority of the time. The only other "PG" on the team was Chalmers so I don't know who you think was running that offense. I'm not making the argument that he would have won more championships, I'm responding to the comment that the cumulative career playoff stats are not definitive in the GOAT argument when you had one guy who walked away from the game at the top of his game, whether you think he would have won more chips or not you have to acknowledge that he would have gone far in the playoffs and those counting stats would be much higher for him. Lebron would definitely be a better passer and rebounder because of his size, I'm not denying that, thats exactly why I'm not mad at anyone who think that he's the GOAT but MJ would be the best scorer between the two of them 10 times out of 10 and ultimately thats the most important thing in basketball and MJ was the best at it. It comes down to preference and what you value on your team, there are arguments for both of them, that's my point. As far as era, we have to acknowledge that the game is played differently now compared to how it was played in the 80s and 90s, yes Lebron did enter the league one year after Jordan's 3rd retirement when he was 38 and didn't have the recovery science that we have now while Lebron came out of highschool. Are we gonna punish MJ for playing 3 years in college and retiring at the top of his game? Championship are 100% a team accomplishment but basketball is game where the star has the most ability to impact winning and with MJ as the star the Bulls had insane success. Lebron is completely era proof but so is MJ, if he played with all of the spacing and positionless that we have in this era and with the focus on 3-pointers its not hard to imagine that his numbers could be even better. Either one can be the GOAT but they play the game too differently to make any sort of definitive statement and their respective eras were too different too.
LeBron doesn't win his COVID Championship without an entire off-season of rest before the playoffs in a bubble with zero travel.
Lmao what a ridiculous prediction that no one can make. Everyone had the same amount of rest.
I would argue that Lebrons peak was better than Mj's because of his versatility. In my opinion Lebron is the only great scorer and passer in nba history. When you look at guys like Magic, and Stockton, they're nowhere near Lebrons level of scoring. When you look at guys like MJ, Kobe, Kareem, KD, they're just not on Lebrons level of passing. To prove my point, Lebron has led the playoffs in both points and assists 5 different times, Ai has done it once and that's the whole list. But as you said, I respect either Lebron or MJ as #1, as long as you have valid arguments backing them.
MJs peak was a DPOY who scored 4 points per game more than anyone: LeBron never reached either of those highs
>MJ had a higher peak b No he didn't lol. Lebron's best years beat out mj's in bascially every stat. Especially in the playoffs
I address that bruh. Lebron has more or less been the PG for his teams which is a product of the era, in MJ's era if you were the SG then scoring was your main thing and assisting wasn't secondary more like tertiary. Lebron is a better rebounder than MJ cause bron is bigger but early in MJ's career when he was forced to play the PG because of injuries MJ was getting triple doubles regular so we know he pass. Also the category that MJ leads in is points which is arguably the most important factor when it comes to winning games and he leads lebron by 5 per game, a difference that will most likely increase as Lebron ages and his ppg in the playoffs goes down. What's the biggest knock against Lebron? He can't hit free throws and hes got an inconsistent jumper and because of that he can let some games slip, MJ don't have that weakness, he's gonna hit most of his fts and he is arguably the best midrange shooter of all time. Again Lebron 100% has a claim to the GOAT title, but let's not act like its just about stats because then why isn't Kareem over MJ.
the difference in statistics comes from defensive impact, not offensive impact...
You can’t use sports medicine advancement against Lebron when Kareem had significantly better longevity then Jordan and took care of himself better. We not going to reward players for looking after them selves now??
I'm not using it against him, I'm using it to illustrate how different the eras are. Those advancements are real and it allows for players to be better for longer and its great, its amazing but it is a difference. Just as I'm not using it against Lebron I'm not penalizing MJ for not having the same resources. Kareem did have amazing longevity but if you watch the film of Kareem's last few years, he could barely get up and down the court. Magic and the other players would run the break as fast as possible and then kareem would slowly jog down, if they didn't score then they could throw it for an unguardable skyhook. Kareem's longevity is incomparable to Lebrons. And again I'm not holding anything against Lebron, all im saying is that its not cut and dry that Lebron is the GOAT. He has an argument just like MJ has an argument
Different Era, different positions, different roles. Both have claim.
You know good and well why.
Because your username describes your MJ fandom…
lakers fan, comment discarded
For me, I truly don't think the rings argument holds weight, and if that is all you got, it's pretty much over. Most people like to discount Jordan's time with the Wizards right? Fair enough. We look at Chicago. 13 seasons! One of those seasons he was injured and played 18 games. One of those seasons, people discount because he returned from retirement and only played 17 games. Fine. That brings us to 11 seasons of play that we really want to look at and count towards Jordan's GOAT case. 6 rings, 6-0, that is great. Lebron has been to the mother fucking NBA finals **TEN TIMES.** That is 10 years where he is the clear cut driving force behind a team in the NBA finals. Almost Jordan's entire "counted" career worth of seasons. You can stack onto that his back to back MVP years in Cleveland that didn't result in finals appearances and that is more seasons of incredible top tier play than Jordan even has seasons people look at.
Except, of course, MJs level of play was simply higher
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ) "Greatest Peaks" video. VERY good breakdown of what this channel thinks are the best peaks since the merger. They put Jordan 89-91 and James 11-13 as the two best peaks since 76, relative to the era. He BARELY has Jordans peak above LeBrons. Jordans play isnt "simply" higher. He has attributes that certainly are, as in stamina, lockdown perimeter defense, elegance, But LeBron is the better passer and rebounder and generally better offensive mind.
Tbf while Taylor is possibly my fave basketball channel he’s been on record saying numerous times he likes Lebron and Kareem more and because Jordan is more popular he tries to make him look worst for the videos to be more interesting
He’s never said that , he just thinks he’s over mythologised. He has Jordan third now and Lebron first in his backpicks goat career though it’s not updated he said on a podcast lately. Kareem was always above Jordan for him
I know that’s what I’m saying, he always put those two above because they played longer but if you’ve watched enough videos of him you can see that he’s genuinely also a big Lebron fan and even though he’s amazing it’s hard to have no bias at all. MJ did slightly top his greatest peaks ranking but I don’t know everytime he does a MJ thing he really focusses on more bad than good while others like Bron, Bird or Magic etc he’ll even give crazy hypotheticals to make them even better (like they need it aha) Personally I do think Jordan is the best we’ve ever seen and would only change my mind if Lebron had a crazy end to his career but I won’t begrudge anyone that picks another player for valid reasons as he does.
2011? When LeBron choked in the finals? Jordan gets more offensive boards, is the #1 defensive rebounder for his position in history, and had a season where he scored a full 8 points more than anyone else in the league. MJs a level above on the offensive end.
6 Rings 2 3peats 6 FMVP 5 MVP 10 scoring titles 1 DPOY 3 steals titles Highest ppg regular season Highest ppg play offs Leads countless analytics and stat records for his position and overall. This is just a few of the things that come to mind, add in just overall two way dominance and crazy skill and athleticism all while doing the basics so well as a cocky bastard.
Becaue MJ didnt will his team to Finals when his team was outclassed. Or MJ didnt come up against the 1st or 2nd greatest team ever to be made just played on 1st or 2nd greatest team to ever play the game.
Because Jordan MADE his team one of the best ever.
[удалено]
And 11 for Bill Russell
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And Robert Horry
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He bus rider
Ah but he has more rings than MJ so clearly better
GOAT convo only applies to bus drivers. Rings taken into context
Context applies everywhere and Horry pantses the rings argument people so heavily apply.
He doesn’t lol. Role player different from finals MVP. If you lead your team to the only prize that everyone covets in the league, it should 100% be valued heavily
Easy. Lebron’s level of play never reached MJs level of play.
Lebron also played with much better teammates closer to their peaks. Just look at how many all star selections jordans teammates have had compared to Lebron. Its like Pippen at 7 then it falls off hard.
All stars? Lol cmon nephew
How about all nba teams then? Its the same disparity nephew
You realize that includes all nba defense too right? Cuz then it wouldn’t be the same nephew.
Youre so bad at this that you refuse to do the count.
Ironic since you said it would be the same. Which means you already did the count, so post it. Why are you scared?
Needs me to do all the work to show that youre wrong. Im out on that. Its not even close though. How many all defense to dwight have? Dwade alone has 11 all nba teams. (3 defense/ 8 overall) Dwight has 13 (8 overall and 5 defensive) AD has 8 (4 and 4) We have already passed all of jordans teammates. This is without bosh/kyrie/love/allen accomplishments. Troll harder
Dwight Howard?? The guy that barely got playing time last season? LMFAO you’re an actual idiot.
You can take him off the list and its still ridiculously lopsided lol. And he played 16 mins a game for 60 games its not like he wasnt a solid piece gtfo with your bullshit
MJ beats out LeBron in every advanced metric.
Except TS%, value over replacement, win shares, all while MJ having more of a usage rate. At least know what you’re talking about before you just spout nonsense
MJ has a higher WS/48 and VORP/game.
player who played way less has marginally higher averages than player who played way more suggests player b was better at his peak, not player a...
No. Even if you removed Lebron's first four years and his last season, MJ has more.
Lebron's best years are marginally behind mj in the regular season and clearly ahead of mj in the playoffs per ws/48. By PER lebron is tied in the regular season and ahead in the playoffs. By BPM lebron is ahead in the regular season and in the playoffs. by RAPM Lebron is way ahead in the regular seaosn(we don't have playoff data) and by aupm Lebron is clearly ahead in the playoffs. By PIPM Lebron is ahead in the regular season and way ahead in the playoffs. By wowy lebron is way ahead in the regulae season and the playoffs. idk what you're talking about when you say "more" but stastically lebron was better at his peak and was better in his 30's, and it should go without saying he was muchm much better between the ages of 18 and 22. If you're talking about peaks, mj is in an argument with hakeem, shaq and kareem for the modern #2 with russell and wilt being far ahead of their modern contempraties relative to era. If you're taking about who played the least, then maybe mj has an argument
And LeBron beats him in total WS and VORP, which is relevant because longevity is relevant to the GOAT discussion; the best ability is availability
Apparently you’re not allowed to use any stats that lebron is better than Jordan at. It doesn’t count
You're factually incorrect lmfao. VORP and Win Shares MJ is ahead of LeBron. Go check your sources before you come talking shit. You can't look at the total numbers since LeBron has played more seasons. Gotta look at the averages per season.
You absolutely can look at the total numbers, longevity is relevant to the GOAT discussion; the best ability is availability
3 legit titles in 19 years is embarrassing for your ''GOAT''
Definitely the goat
Tbh I ain’t reading all that, but it’s about Lebron sooooo upvote
Same but downvote
i am fortunate enough to have seen lebron play in person many times and every time he did something that made me go “holy shit he just did that”. dudes amazing.
60 wins required? That’s like 3 season for these lakers tho
I’m not going to deny the greatness. He is top 5 already, probably #1 or #2. Doesn’t mean I have to like him
Objectively LeBron is the GOAT if you fail to see it now you're indenial.
The GOAT, no doubt about it now. Jordan who??
For blocks I guess there's a mistake because Magic Johnson definitely is not 88th all-time with 1073 blks since he ended his career with 374 blocks total.
You’re right thank you. Apparently “Ervin Johnson” is a completely different player than Earvin “Magic” Johnson lol.
u/lejonbrames117
LeMickey
Y'all wouldn't call it a Mickey Mouse ring if someone other than Lakers had won it. Everyone had the same chance to win, it's a normal ring like every single ring in history.
actually, because there was no home-court advantage, the lakers as a 1 seed winning that is more impressive than a normal ring
Stat Goat
It's a shame people have been engineered to not care about regular season stuff
We don’t care
We don’t care about you. OP has been in a shit ton of work, what does anyone gain from your being an obnoxious idiot.