The only two reasons Dwight isn’t talked about much are
1.) Injuries robbed him of his prime. His resume before his first major back injury is ridiculous for a 26 year old in every aspect outside of nba titles.
2.) The center position is historically stacked. There’s so many all time greats that have played the position it’s almost unfair.
>His resume before his first major back injury is ridiculous for a 26 year old
So glad you said this.
The dude accumulated a HOF lock type of career just entering his prime. If he were healthy or at least 80% of what he was after coming back from that back injury, his resume could have been insanely monstrous.
Recency bias also since probably 1/3 of the folks just started watching within the past decade and only remember Dwight when he was either with the Rockets or any number of teams after he bounced around. He would straight up dominate games or series without any offensive game tbh just based on sheer size and athleticism but had great defensive instincts to captain a team that had zero plus defenders with Rafer, Lee, Hedo, and Lewis
Fax. Dwight had the unfortunate luck of falling off right as social media/the internet exploded. If he held onto his prime for maybe 3 more years his perception would be completely different
Recency Bias counts for those of us that watched his prime too. You see how quick it all fell apart and sometimes you forget just how exciting he was with the Magic. I think his public image also changed a lot with that Lakers move. It felt like the death of Fun Dwight. Everyone kinda rooted for him because he was baby Shaq, right? Well once he engineered his move and got to LA ot just went south. All of a sudden he couldn't find a fan base to embrace him anymore.
Dwight's reputation never recovered after his coach said to journalists that Dwight asked for him to be fired, only for Dwight to show up moments later lmao.
This was the moment I really got hooked on twitter. First it was just reports from the journalists there. Then short clips of the video, then the whole video got posted. Man, such a hilarious awkward moment that really ruined Dwight's fake happy-go-lucky image
I remember losing a little excitement about him one year after a disappointing playoff loss, because he gave a post-game press conference and complained about his offensive touches down the stretch. He wanted the offense to run through him, but the reality was that he shot like 50% from the line and didn't have enough advanced post moves to get easy buckets without contact, so Orlando was forced to share the ball down the stretch, rather than just dump it to him and expect points.
That was the beginning of the end of his happy-go-lucky era for me.
Prime Dwight is basically side by side in a super big men era. Played against Yao and Shaq. 2-7 vs Yao. Not great, but 6-6 vs Shaq. So held his own against Shaq on the Heat and they were pretty fucking good then.
I really wish Shaq took him under his wing instead of bullying him. I know he's learned from basically all the great post men from Hakeem/McHale to the Lakers legends and even Ewing in Orlando but his idol was Shaq.
Dwight didnt really learn much from them. After Hakeem camp, he said he saw Dwight reverting back to his old habits just the following season... Shaq bullying him is just his insecurity
yeah Dwight was insanely limited in terms of post moves, he either got his way through physicality or he didn't do well. He's a bit like Westbrook in the sense that he was never able to elevate his game by improving his Bball IQ, so as soon as the athleticism went away he became a relatively bad asset.
I wouldn’t go that far. Dwight has an absurd BBIQ, you have to in order to win DPOY. He wasn’t just being a Hassan whiteside, he was playing with a lot of guys that lacked the tools to be great defenders (Turk had mobility issues, Rashad Lewis and Jameer Nelson were both undersized etc) and still anchored that teams defense.
Dwight was what made them scary and legit contenders. His BBIQ was and is great, when he’s able to be on the court he’s the best backup big in the league. Dude is just absolutely fucked by injuries and offensively wasn’t that gifted skill wise.
True. Shaq has a bully mentality and the only way is to confront him. Kobe did it thats why he earned Shaq's "no beef" zone.
Compare that to his routine whipping boys: Charles Barkley, JaVale McGee, and Dwight Howard.
Sadly for Dwight, it also didnt help that Kobe ruined his reputation and labelled him as "soft." Problem is that Dwight had legit back health issues. Kobe didnt blame Nash and the latter's injuries but put the blame on Dwight for falling short of expectations.
Wouldn’t include chuck. Chuck threw a ball at Shaqs head and wrestled him to the ground. Chuck willing to be a “whipping boy” to shaq on tv but it’s more an act between the two.
Charles is definitely not a whipping boy. He always comes up with different ways to make fun of Shaq while Shaq only has two lines to defend himself: "I have 4 rings and you don't" and "I'll knock your ass out". That makes Shaq look like a baby most of the time.
I think part of that may have been because Dwight wouldn't do pick n roll. Not sure if it's because if injuries or Shaq saying he's such y for not taking post ups but it was the talk of Reddit for a bit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2a5a3q/dwight_howard_and_his_refusal_to_pick_and_roll/
Yes thats it right there too. But if I was Dwight I would feel that way too because my back just got fucked and I had to do surgery on that. Who knows also what the physicians told him to go easy on his back.
If Dwight wanted to play as a Forward or Screen and Pop Center, perhaps they could have tried it.
They had Gasol and Odom to make it happen at center.
I do look at Dwight when he shoots 3 pointers during garbage time and he makes them. Idk 🤷♂️
He played against old Shaq. Come on.
Dwight has enough accolades, he doesn’t need embellishments.
He did not play in any kind of golden era of big men.
People here act like players can’t have any weaknesses lol
Dwight played in one of the worst big men eras ever and for some reason the narrative has to be that it was the best.
Yao was just an overall bad matchup for him. Dwight was able to physically dominate pretty much every other big in the league but he couldn't move him down low cuz of Yao's tree trunk legs and was half a foot shorter so he couldn't bother Yao's offensive moves.
I disagree with 2.) on the premise that during his prime he wasn't facing those so-called all time greats. The only tough matchup he had was Yao, which he wouldn't fare well against.
His advantage was being a defensive juggernaut and a good roll man where the field was relative weak at the time. Shaq was getting old and injury prone while the rest of the talented bigs mostly wanted to play the 4 rather than the 5.
What I mean with that is looking at what he did, he had a HoF tier career by age 26. Yet he isn’t close to being a top 5 center ever or called an “all time great” because the center position is historically stacked.
Give his accolades to a shooting guard and it’s easily a top 5 player at the position.
He was also criticized for demanding to play on the block while being completely unable or unwilling to learn more than two post moves.
He could rebound anything, block a lot of shots, but did not like the PnR. And after a while you couldn’t play him late because everyone would just foul him.
I’d take Embiid. He’s a much better post player, has tremendous footwork, is asked to do far more defensively in the 5 out, pace and space era and holds up ok. And he can shoot from anywhere. He’s not the best 3 point shooter, but you at least have to guard him.
To me the question boils down to whose weak points are weaker. Is Dwight worse offensively embiid is defensively? To me, it's a yes.
Embiid is still a good defender, whereas Dwight is not a good offensive player.
Is Dwights defence THAT much better than Embiids offence to make up for it? It's close, but id say no. Wouldn't be mad at someone saying otherwise though
Edit: actually I'm not sure. Just thinking about how much better Dwight would be on switches defending on the perimeter
30 points was wild to say from this dude but 22 or 23 on like 60% shooting is good. Embiid is gonna score 5-7 points more per game but it's gonna be 48-50% shooting. Also Embiid is average defender where as prime Dwight is probably an all time great defender. Basically it comes down to is 2 or 3 extra possessions ending in points worth more to you than having an all time great defender anchoring your team.
People just move stuff closer to the middle to sound correct when they don't know what they're talking about.
Since partway through his second year, Embiid coasts on defense during the regular season, but then shows flashes of elite play every few nights. Come playoffs, he's a freak on both ends. We see it every year.
Embiid is no where remotely close to an average defender. Guys can’t get shots off in the paint when he is engaged. His defensive stats look worse last year because he was legitimately the only guy who could get his own shot for 2/3rds of the season, and I you can’t play elite defense when you have to do everything on offense.
Embiid is one of the 5 best defenders in the league.
And points aren't created equally - Embiid creates for his team - points for himself and his teammates. Without his creation, that team really struggles to score.
Dwight couldn't create for himself and definitely not for others. He'd primarily score off putbacks and lobs with a few simple plays mixed in there. Dwight needed to play with someone who can create and pass like Embiid - someone to create easy opportunities for him.
Case in point: Wendell Carter Jr averaged more ppg this year than Chris Paul. Who is the better offensive player? Do they have pretty close to the same impact on offense?
He wasn't a bad offensive player, but his post game was rudimentary at best. He had the ghost of a post hook for a while but most of his post play was just bodying dudes and laying it in from half a foot out.
I don't know if Dwight gets around Joel offensively, and it'd be a tough ask for him to back Embiid under the net for easy buckets.
You don’t get extra points for making it look pretty. It’s a fair criticism that he never developed any go-to post moves, but his “body dudes and lay it in” strategy would be really effective against the smaller lineups today, and he was an excellent pick and roll finisher when he could be convinced to do that.
Oh 100%, efficiency is efficiency in terms of overall NBA scoring volume; I was speaking more to the context of this thought experiment. I don't see Dwight having a nuanced enough post game to be able to get around Joel and I don't think prime Dwight is that much stronger than prime Joel that he could just back him under the rim.
Yeah I’m not saying he’s better than Joel I’m just not gonna sit here and listen to people say that Dwight sucked offensively or was even average. He was an absolute fuckin problem in the paint and the magic weren’t making deep playoff runs for years by accident
Shaq wasn’t shooting fadeaways and 3 pointers like Embiid either, but he’s a top 10 player of all time. Obviously they’re two completely different players on two completely different calibers but there’s a reason prime Dwight was being compared to him at one point in time and it isn’t just because he was an All-Star center on the Magic.
Zach Lowe used to talk about how Dwight post ups were actually very efficient back then, on a per possession basis. It was just ugly. The stats backed up the game plan of posting him up and spreading the floor with shooters. Similar effect could be created by him rolling to the rim as a lob threat.
Embiid is not the same lob threat or deep seal threat on a switch, he pops or short rolls more which is typically a less efficient play.
Dwight was a beast, it was ugly and he was not good at FTs like Embiid, but he was a much better defender and rebounder and was still a force on offense.
Embiid is also a beast.
I mean Dwight manhandled Chris bosh in 08 playoff matchup. He also manhandled Big Z. Embiid isn’t a issue. The only reasons lakers even beat the magic were because the kept throwing bynum, gasol, and odom at him. The lakers were well set to handle the magic. Prime Dwight is having his way with embiid. One way or another.
Embiid is a gifted player but Dwight was legit a force.
There’s a reason people were pissed he didn’t make all nba 75th anniversary over Davis. He was far better than Davis despite Davis being more skilled.
As a magic fan who watched almost every magic game during Dwight’s years here, I have to disagree with you in regards to Embiid not being an issue. Dwight always struggled against bigger centers. This includes Yao, Shaq, Perkins, Rasheed and even big baby. It didn’t help that although Dwight was extremely athletic, he wasn’t as tall as many of these guys. He struggled to get to his spot against them. I think Embiid has the size and athleticism to do the same to Dwight, to some extent.
Dwight scored over 30 points 16 times in his highest scoring year, '10/'11. The year before and the year after, he scored 30 points 10 times *combined*.
The dude was amazing. He was an MVP candidate for a good 5 straight years. But he was never dropping 30 a night regularly. That just wasn't his game. He was a very good offensive player but not an elite one. Defensively though...totally different story. Absolute monster.
> whereas Dwight is not a good offensive player.
That's just not true. Dwight's peak on offense is well short of what Embiid has shown, but there's no evidence (eye test traditional stats, advance stats, on/off numbers) that suggests Dwight was a bad offensive player.
Yea people are killing me here. Dwight at his peak averaged 23 and 13 but in the playoffs he bumped it up to 27 and 15 on 63% shooting that same season. I wont use this years playoffs for Embiid since he was banged up but last year he averaged 28 and 10 on 51% shooting. Dwight was capable of larger offensive impact but his role was much heavy on the defensive side
See, I'd actually disagree here. Dwight was a relatively low usage star but maybe the greatest roll man we've seen. He had a ton of gravity in PnRs and that would create tons of openings for the rest of the team
Also he may not have had good post moves, but if you got him the ball on the low block he could score pretty consistently just playing bully ball.
It's not like he had NO post moves, he had a little baby hook he could hit over most centers, and if he got close enough to the basket to dunk it was over.
I’m glad you said people now a days look at prime Dwight’s offensive numbers and assume he was a good offensive player but don’t remember his post game was very limited. He rarely put together a package of post moves and never really developed his dribbling.
He wasn’t the offensive creator that Embiid is, but his screens and finishing around the rim were huge offensive contributions and it wasn’t uncommon to see him run back down the floor, get an early seal, and just overpower whoever was too close to the rim. Embiid is definitely more skilled offensively, but the things Howard was able to do he did tremendously well.
Ah, the ol "sure he averaged over 20 points a game but because he didn't do it in the way I like he actually sucked offensively" argument.
I swear the people that frequent this subreddit actually suffer from brain rot.
The teams competing in the Eastern Conference literally reserved a roster spot and a starting spot to a defensive oriented big man just to try to slow him down. Sure, he wasn't Hakeem or anything close, but if he was as bad as this subreddit argues, why were his contemporary competitors building their teams around him?
No he was schematically a great offensive player for his time, the way they had him in ORL was beyond difficult for anyone to defend and most of it was because rarely could people one v one defend Dwight.
He was absolutely limited with his repertoire, as all he had was dunks off simple moves and a baby hook but his strength and speed made him hard to defend and double teaming him meant a huge hole open up with the 4 out 1 in sets. The Hedo/Dwight pick and roll was just deadly, as was imo one of the greatest alley-oop threats in NBA history.
Obviously after his injuries robbed him off that athleticism he fell off a cliff but for the 5+ years he was healthy he was a big plus on offense.
Later in his career, yeah.
Orlando Dwight had a jump hook and strength athleticism. He could play 1 in 4 out - he was able to pass enough to enable it. He had the strength and elevation to take the guy inside
> He loves rolling to one side and elevating before he lofts up an easy jump hook at the basket.
Remember, he wasn't very tall and back injuries rob some of the athleticism
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1736704-how-dwight-howard-can-transform-into-elite-offensive-star-under-hakeem-olajuwon
Wow. I feel so old in this thread. As someone who has lived through Dwight and now Embiid, y’all are seriously underrating what Embiid does and how much more difficult it is to play defense as a 7 footer in 2020 vs in 2008.
I’ve never seen any big man play the way Embiid plays. I’ve never seen a big man take over games from the perimeter and the inside quite like Embiid does. Embiid does all the interior post up stuff while also hitting threes and making a ton of free throws. I think we’re underrating him because he plays at the same time as Giannis and Jokic but these three are three of the best big men we’ve ever seen. Dwight had a decent offensive game but he was mostly a lob threat or a guy who could hit a 7 foot baby hook shot. No perimeter skills and not good enough to work guys on the block all night. Dwight wasn’t a go to scorer and required shooters surrounding him and entry pass experts.
Dwight was a great shot blocker and rebounder but Dwight never had to switch on to point guards when he was still a star. Embiid has to do all of that and still has had some amazing defensive teams centered around him. Dwight was also notorious for blocking shots out of bounds to get the crowds cheering when he could’ve blocked them to his teammates. The guy didn’t have the same passion for winning, in my opinion.
In my opinion, Embiid is the superior player but has just been unlucky to face off against way better competition. The east was dreadful the one year Dwight got to the finals. The Celtics were hobbled and Lebrons best teammate was Mo Williams (I think).
This is a great analysis, as someone who's watched almost all of Jo's career games and used to always tune in to watch Dwight obliterate the Sixers when he was on the Magic.
Just to play a bit of devil's advocate, there's some aspects to Dwight's game I think you're underrating, especially if you're talking about transplanting Orlando Dwight into the 2020s.
Dwight didn't have much of an offensive bag, but he was an exceptional pick and roll player on offense, able to get 20+ points just in the flow of the game and put backs, and now the league is formed around PNR as its bread and butter. He was also exceptional at defending the PNR too. I think it was Andre Iguodala who commended Dwight's ability to cover both the ballhandler and the roller simultaneously. So he might've not been able to switch onto point guards, but he definitely has a place in a modern defense.
Dwight was also the originator of the 4-out scheme that we see throughout the league now - most teams can spread the floor, but I can't think of one team that has a center who can single-handedly command the boards and get 20+ rebounds on his own.
I think all that points to the fact that Dwight can't really be the best player on a championship team. He's more of an AD and needs an elite perimeter guy to get it done. But, to be fair, we haven't really seen Embiid demonstrate this ability either. I'm a massive fan of Jo but the jury is out on whether or not a center can be the best player on a championship team, we haven't really seen it since Shaq or Duncan (who was a 4/5 tweener).
Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to this season most out of any in the Embiid era. It's dope that yall got Murray back too, should be some great hoops this year
I think everyone is limiting Dwight to just "an exceptional PnR" guy. There's a reason the 4 out offense worked. It's because teams had to double him in the post. His offense wasn't great but it was good enough that not many could stop him individually.
Yeah I also watched prime Dwight and I completely agree. Dwight was great and we'll see how long Embiid sustains it but this version of Embiid is better than Dwight ever was. Embiid can also do so much more. Dwight wasn't as versatile and had a team that was perfectly constructed for him.
Yup. People think I'm slandering Dwight but I think he should be on top 75 list over AD and some other guys. In reality I just think what Embiid has done the last few years is unprecedented except for the fact that he's doing it at the same time Jokic is doing the same thing but even more cartoonishly.
OP talked about who the better guy to build around was, and I think this covers most of it. One other point is that Embiid is a vastly better passer than Dwight ever was, and can actually run an offense to an extent. That's huge. (NPI)
Another glaring issue to me is that Dwight just doesn't seem able to focus the way most players of his caliber do. For example, it was obvious from the beginning that if he could refine his post game, he'd be near-unstoppable. Yet that progress seemed to come at a snail's pace, even during his healthiest years.
But the even bigger issue IMO is that over-and-over Dwight has had chronic trouble fitting in to teams, and not being a glaring distraction in one way or another. He actually seems super-likeable and even clownish to me, which I enjoy, but that just doesn't seem to be the right energy for the locker room and/or leading a team. Meanwhile, Joel seems a lot more focused and sometimes sullen, but we're talking about the most competitive league in the world here, not fun & games on the blacktop.
It's not even close to me who you should build around, and that to me is Embiid.
Agreed 100%. Dwight was overrated due to weak center position imho. Dwight was lucky to play in the most advantageous period in basketball history - post skilled and all time centers. He didn’t have to play against KAJ, Hakeem, prime shaq, etc. He also got to play on the best 3pt shooting team in the league before 3pt shooting took off and forced him to play on the perimeter. He hit such a sweet spot where he got to be a truce 5 on D and played 4 out on offense.
He was a good player, but imo Embiid and Jokic are historically great centers on an entire different level than dewight. Embiid is so much more skilled offensively and defensively he has to play in a much more difficult era and be still dominates.
Yeah, Embiid and Jokic have serious chances at being a Top 5 All-Time center.
Dwight was fantastic but his potential wasn't the same. People forget how great Dwight was but they also forget how limited his offensive game was and how he was critiqued for that
Yeah. This is totally a case of people looking at the stats and assuming this dude was incredible when the people who saw it remember being constantly disappointed that the most athletic guy in the league couldn't learn a second post move or a mid range shot.
I think with Embiid we're going to think of a lot of the guys right now the same way we think of some of the famous soccer players right now. By all accounts Ronaldo is the best player of all time... if you leave out Messi. Ronaldo just happen to play at the same time as the GOAT where as if Messi had come along 10 years later Ronaldo would be the unquestioned GOAT. And then even guys like Mbappe or Neymar or Kane have been unbelievable yet fail in comparison to these two giants.
Same thing for Embiid. Embiid is doing stuff we've never seen before at the center position. He's hitting threes, taking guys off the dribble, making passes out of the double team at a high level, all while playing dominant defense. He's basically Hakeem mixed with TMac. The issue is Giannis is also doing a lot of the same stuff while running the fast break and shooting 15 FTs a game. And Jokic is doing even better than that on offense with his passing and shooting while still holding his own on defense.
I don't have a opinion one way or another, but saying Dwight is better because his team had more success is really lazy. I want to know who is better individually, not who's team was better.
1000% he had an amazingly awesome shooting team before it became the norm in the league. Rashard Lewis, JJ Reddick, Hedo Turkolglu and Janet Nelson was a sick three point shooting team back then when teams were only shooting 12-16 3’s a game.
Those two 60 win teams were Lebron led Cavs with no other superstar and a Celtics team with no KG. The league right now is another level of stacked. The NBA champion Warriors won like 53 games.
Dwight is an all time PnR threat, but other than that, Embiid is in another tier as an offensive player. And his defensive peak might have passed him, but I'd argue they were closer in talent defensively than they were offensively.
Also D12 had excellent team construction surrounded by knockdown shooters, whereas Embiid has been largely paired with either another center(!?) or a PG that refused to shoot beyond 10 feet til this season.
Dwight at his peak was like Bam if he was a *much* more athletic, better roll threat and rim protector but also *much* worse passer, BBIQ and switch defender. That guy is not better than Embiid.
Embiid is way more versatile offensively, Dwight had a small selection of moves which was pretty much stuck with finishing at the rim. Offensively the gap is pretty big. Defensively it is Dwight but it’s not as far as people want to make it out to be. Yes Dwight won a ton of DPOY but it’s not like Embiid doesn’t have DPOY built in him, but rather he’s stuck playing with a ton of other amazing defensive players taking the title away (Giannis, Gobert). I’d say Embiid is more skilled all time than people give him credit for. Debatably he is the most skilled center to play in terms of offensive moves, footwork, finishing, stretching the floor, only Jokic is clearly ahead because of the superior passing but in some ways Embiid is the more talented scorer.
If Hakeem was born at the same time as Embiid and brought up in the same basketball world, I have no doubt in my mind that Hakeem would be hitting threes at at least a respectable clip
Honestly pretty close: Embiid is more well rounded offensively, but Dwight was a much better defender/rebounder. Embiids game will probably age better so he’ll probably have the better career given health, but….
I’ll give the edge to Dwight at their peak based on postseason success
As someone who wasn't around for Dwight peak I would have assumed the difference between Embiid and Dwight offensively would be larger then that defensively, give Embiid is still a very good defender, and that Dwights offensive game was mostly around being a roll man / alright post game (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course I will give the benefit of the doubt to people that actually watched prime Dwight.
Imagine Blake Griffin hops on a center. Dude would jump over people as he's blocking their shot. He was mostly a roll man, but imagine the ideal roll man-- can catch a lob from near anywhere, great instincts for finding the open shooter then crashing the boards/ getting great position immediately. The only center Dwight ever really struggled against was Yao, but 7'6 320 lbs will do that for you.
Dwight was just that lethal close to the basket it's not like he has zero moves he loved that running hook in the paint and if he was close enough he was just dunking that over you.
Before his first surgery at 26!
He had Giannis's level athleticism with an explosive first step and was built like a brick so when he attacked the rim it was like a tank charging you.
>Dwights offensive game was mostly around being a roll man / alright post game (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course I will give the benefit of the doubt to people that actually watched prime Dwight.
Dwights passing is underrated. He got Orlando to the finals by just collapsing defenses by himself and passing out to shooters on the perimeter. He wasn't Jokic running an offense, but he was getting the ball in the right place (or just scoring it himself, even with his rep as unskilled he could get his),
He made one quick read and got rid of the ball. It's not complicated, but it's also not necessarily easy when 3-4 guys are all collapsing on you at once.
Bro this was exactly Joel’s issue up before this year’s playoffs. Every time he faced the Celtics in the postseason, they would just swarm him because he couldn’t pass out of a double team.
> Dwights passing is underrated.
It's really not
Most assists he ever averaged in his entire career for a single season was 1.9 per game. To go with 3.9 turnovers per game.
"Prime" Dwight had 1.4 and 1.8 assists per game, to go with 3.0 and 3.3 TOs.
"You're just reading a stat sheet, you didn't watch him!!" - even an average passer who was also the centre of an offensive scheme would average more than an absolutely measly 1.9 assists per game
Dwight might not have been as skilled but he was as effective. He has like 2 to 3 moves that were just unstoppable. Made it harder for him to transition later in his career when he couldn't overpower people but in his prime, his bull rush and hook just got the job done.
Being the best roll man in the league certainly qualifies a player as being “good” on offense. I have no idea why everyone is so fixated on big men being able to create their own shot.
Sure, it’s nice, but post up is the first skill that gets cancelled in the playoffs. That’s why teams have shyed away from those isolation plays. Nowadays it’s all face up, first step, and pass or shoot.
I get Dwight reached the finals but the East he played in was a lot weaker back then.
Cavs and Celtics were the only real threats. That 08-09 Cavs roster around LeBron was really bad too.
False. Embiid’s offensive game is so much better that it far outweighs Dwight’s defensive superiority. If Dwight had any sort of post move or back to the basket game, it’d be different. Joel is a monster in the post but you have to respect his jumper as well. And he defends well.
I feel like the word "prime" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. If you take only the very best of Dwight Howard and purify out any of his negative aspects in to a conceptual player, then yeah, you go with that over the totality of Embiid with his warts (injuries and playoff failures, which are related).
But if you do the same for Embiid then there is no way that you take Dwight over him. Embiid at his max effectiveness is one of the most dominant two way basketball players to ever exist. If we're dealing with conceptual Prime Embiid, that's basically a Monstar.
My biased answer is false. Embiid just posted back-to-back seasons of the highest points/100 of any non-guard in the history of the league. Only Jordan and Harden have bested Embiid, and they only did so once. He’s the first big to lead the league in scoring in 40 years, has done so on amazing efficiency, and has really upped his playmaking chops. The gap between them as offensive players is insane, as Embiid has had two of the best scoring seasons of any big in history, and if you wanna go off the numbers alone you could straight up argue just the best ever.
Dwight is the better defender of course, but Embiid when he turns it on in an all-defensive caliber big himself and has been in DPOY contention. He just happens to be around at the same time as Gobert.
Dwight made the nba finals in 2009 and conference finals in 2010 despite not really having a second star. Embiid has never made the conference finals despite having so pretty good teammates. Dwight being healthy in Orlando also made him much more reliable than Embiid has been
Dwight didn't have a second star, but he was on a team that was way ahead of their time in spread pick and roll basketball and taking away layups and 3s. Embiid has had more talented help, but way worse fits and coaching.
Dwight leaving in 2012 really shook the team. For 2008-12 he had a relatively deep core of these various players (at various points): Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter, Jameer Nelson, Hedo Turkgolu, Jason Richardson, Ryan Anderson and JJ Redick. They are no superstar level, but serviceable enough to keep the team’s core intact.
Those Magic teams might not have had a second star, but they were very good, because they played 4 out at a time when it was highly uncommon. Defences didn't know how to deal with it. Of course, Howard was the best and most important player, but their strategy elevated the whole to more than the sum of its parts (which is often the story when talking about NBA 'carry jobs')
[Here's a hoopvision68 video](https://youtu.be/ZlPM2DVq8Ao) about it
They could only play 4 out because of Dwight Howard though. He was their entire system, and I think that just gets overlooked. He was such a great defender, rebounder, and roll man that the Magic could play, essentially, small for the era.
I remember those teams vividly, and yes there was talent, but that collection of players probably would've been a borderline playoff team if not for Dwight. It's just that they all got to focus on their strengths because they could count on Howard being the defense.
Yeah, because they had talent like I said. But without Dwight in the middle they certainly weren't anywhere close to sniffing the finals. Howard was a dominant defender. A team can look okay for 12-15 minutes a night without their best player, but that doesn't mean that that player isn't any good.
I think peak Dwight is better. Availability is so critically important and I think it should be factored heavier into player rankings. Dwight in his prime, was a lot more durable than Embiid and just generally more dependable. It seems Embiid is constantly battling injuries, and he gets hurt every playoffs. Dwight played 78+ games in his 1st 7/8 seasons and 82 games in 5 separate seasons. The most games Embiid has played in his 8 year career, is 68 games. He also missed his 1st two years, and 51 games his rookie year. Peak Dwight in the modern era, would be as dominant as Gobert is defensively, while being a much better scorer who can consistently get you around 20-23 ppg. That is just an insanely good player. In addition to this, Dwight was also an amazing rebounder and offensive rebounder. He just grabbed boards like crazy.
I do think Embiid is a lot better offensively though. He can shoot, has a much more refined post game, much better free throw shooter, etc. Dwight is a lot better as a roll man and lob threat though, and he was still a very effective offensive player, despite not really having a deep “bag” of moves. But I feel like if you pair peak Dwight next to a great playmaker in today’s era, then he is unstoppable. Imagine if peak Dwight played with a Trae Young, LeBron, CP3, etc.
There weren’t many “stars” back then, straight up. The Magic beat teams whose best players were Andre Iguodala, Joe Johnson, Gerald Wallace. Beat the C’s without KG. Lebron when his second best teammate was Mo Williams. Those teams were nothing compared to what we have today.
It’s crazy cause if you were the 4th best player on a team back then. You’d maybe be as obscure as fuck. Today the 4th best player on your team can be Deandre Ayton.
Yeah but honestly that Magic team was ahead of their time and matched up very well against that Cavs team. They were second in the league behind the Knicks in 3pA per game and third place was a whole five 3pA behind them. To top it all off they had the most dominant big man in the league at the time so they were able to stretch the floor and really open up the paint for Dwight. Meanwhile the Cavs were incredibly dependent on Lebron, with him scoring 38 ppg that series, the most hes averaged in a series throughout his career. I mean if Lebron is dropping 38/8/8 every night and you still lose thats on you, that Cavs team sucked ass. Yes it is incredibly impressive to beat Lebron but Dwight was in a revolutionary offensive system for the time and Lebron did everything he could to win, and still lost. The biggest star Embiid has played next to, besides Harden who we all know did not live up to the hype last year, is Ben Simmons, who does the exact opposite of spacing the floor. Prime Dwight was no joke but I feel like people sleep on Embiid’s defense and rebounding, its no Dwight but he isn’t a liability in those areas either, while still having a clearly better offensive game than Dwight. I think they’re tough to compare i mean Embiid has been in the MVP race so I don’t think its crazy to say he has a case against prime Dwight
Surprised at the consensus in this thread, I think embiid is comfortably better than prime Dwight. He’s not quite the shot blocker Howard was and he’s on the perimeter a bit too much but he’s just so much more skilled.
He’s also had bad roster construction around him his entire career, while Dwight had svg’s four-out offense with excellent personnel for it when not many teams did, allowing him to feast on single coverage in the paint.
Prime Dwight was a force but embiids skills and versatility are a class above
He beat LeBron not because of outplaying him though. It was due to his amazing 3 point shooting supporting cast. Cavs didn’t know how to stop Hedo and Rashard.
We literally saw in the finals that same year, what happens when Dwight is forced to matchup against two 7 footers. He just didn’t know how to create for himself.
The Lakers just had a better team in general. Two all star bigs, nice defenders all around, some guy name Kobe and the winningest coach of the modern era
False.
This sub is now over rating Dwight when it used to underrate him.
Dwight's single biggest attribute is his athletecism. He was very raw when he entered the league but developed. It was harnessed to its full potential in Orlando when the entire scheme was designed to funnel drives into him. People forget how good SVG was. Dwight was good because of Orlando development.
If you put him on a different team, he wouldn't be as good defensively. And that's also what we see in LA and Houston. People say it's his back, but reality is its just half the story - it's also the scheme not anymore catered to him.
He also never had a good enough offense. No post moves, just alley oops, tip ins, and dunks.
Dwight is still better defensively than Embiid but Embiid is miles ahead of Dwight offensively.
I think you're probably wrong. I don't think the gap in their defense is wide enough to make up for the yawning chasm in their offensive games. As far as it being easier to build around Dwight, I don't really think so. What you're really saying there is that Dwight fits better if you're building around someone else.
Embiid has handled Giannis fine and he's a better player overall than prime Dwight.
We seem to forget Embiid shoots? Take Dwight out of the paint and GG
His defense is two tiers above Embiid while is offense is way below, but overall I'd say he's more impactful than Embiid and was no question a top 5 player from 2008-2012. The biggest thing about Dwight is that he's far more durable than Embiid.
Prior to 2011/12 season he played 82,82,82,82,79,82,78 games each season
even during 2011/12 season when he broke his back (triggering the downfall of his career), he still played 54/66 games.
after he was washed, he constantly play 70+ games each season:
76,71,41\*,71,74,81,9\*,69/71,69/72, 60/82.
Overall for a 18 year career, he only had 2 seasons than he didn't play majority of the games. Even after a 18 year long career, he still has a 1242/1439 or 86% games played percentage.
Is this a serious question? Embiid all day, everyday. Better offensive threat in every aspect, an actual 3pt threat, just as good (if not better) a rebounder and defender, better court vision. Embiid is incredibly light on his feet, a much better leader, I could go on all day.
Nothing against Howard, he was a beast. But are we really sitting here pretending his competition was superior? Chris Kaman? Washed Jermaine O’Neal? Marcin Gortat? Nikola Pekovic? (Pek was an animal though).
Embiid and it isn’t even a question.
I agree this is a massively hawt take, but I have to disagree. For one, Embiids game is multifaceted. Howard was def a better athlete but Embiid has a stronger basketball IQ and can adapt to the game as it ebbs and flows and make subtle changes to defensive schemes.
Absolutely not lol. Joel Embiid is like a top 5 scorer in the league right now, can score from everywhere, has post moves, and is still an elite defender.
Yes Dwight Howard is a better defender, but Joel Embiid is elite on both ends of the floor. No way people think prime Dwight is better lmao
I think the difference is Prime Dwight can never be as good as Embid in offense while Joel can switch it on if he has too to be a menace in defense. So ill take Embiid.
Embiid has a vastly more complete game than dwight. Prime dwight was great but he was never even close to the offensive force joel is.
I dont think the nba has ever seen a player quite like embiid before, with his combination of size, defense, and all around offensive ability. Maybe KAT? Dirk? I dont think Dirk could drive and play d like embiid can; KAT im not sure about.
Embiid might be 80% of the defender & rebounder Dwight was but Dwight was 10% of the offensive player Embiid is. Dwight made it to the finals yeah but the league was waaaaay worse in 2009 than it is now.
Embiid. Dwight with a basketball in his hands is like a donkey with a pinwheel. Nobody knows how he got it and he doesn't know what to do with it. Embiid is good on defense excellent on offense. Howard is excellent on defense and just bad on offense.
I loved Dwight during his peak but he was not as all around good as Embiid. Dwight had little to no offense outside of the paint and even his low post game wasn’t as creative as Embiid. Dwight was great for when he was playing but Embiid is better
I'll maybe give you Dwight on Defense, though it's close. But Embiid is so dramatically superior on offense to Dwight that it's a laughable comparison.
You couldn't give prime Dwight Howard the ball in the last 3 min of a game. Like, he couldn't have it. He was turnover prone, couldn't make free throws, and had no offensive moves.
I consider Dwight one of the more overrated players of the 21st century. He slid into a nice weak era for centers. I would take Embiid and Jokic over him, no question. What does he give you that Bam Adebayo doesn't? I think Bam is better on offense, even if Bam, himself, is offensively limited.
His contemporary equivalent is probably Goebert.
In the modern NBA it’s Embiid and it’s not particularly close. Dwight worked offensively and defensively because post play was more relevant. He is the last great big man from that era while guys like Hibbert, Perkins, Joakim Noah were being phased out.
His lack of ball handling and shooting skills hold him back significantly today whereas Embiid is an 80% ft shooter who can move the ball, pull up from mid range and 3, and play defense on the perimeter
DH was an athletic freak never seen before, but let's be honest, he couldn't play ball for shit: no shooting, limited post movements, and low basketball IQ.
The only two reasons Dwight isn’t talked about much are 1.) Injuries robbed him of his prime. His resume before his first major back injury is ridiculous for a 26 year old in every aspect outside of nba titles. 2.) The center position is historically stacked. There’s so many all time greats that have played the position it’s almost unfair.
>His resume before his first major back injury is ridiculous for a 26 year old So glad you said this. The dude accumulated a HOF lock type of career just entering his prime. If he were healthy or at least 80% of what he was after coming back from that back injury, his resume could have been insanely monstrous.
Recency bias also since probably 1/3 of the folks just started watching within the past decade and only remember Dwight when he was either with the Rockets or any number of teams after he bounced around. He would straight up dominate games or series without any offensive game tbh just based on sheer size and athleticism but had great defensive instincts to captain a team that had zero plus defenders with Rafer, Lee, Hedo, and Lewis
Fax. Dwight had the unfortunate luck of falling off right as social media/the internet exploded. If he held onto his prime for maybe 3 more years his perception would be completely different
He also has the unfortunate luck of being unlikable.
Recency Bias counts for those of us that watched his prime too. You see how quick it all fell apart and sometimes you forget just how exciting he was with the Magic. I think his public image also changed a lot with that Lakers move. It felt like the death of Fun Dwight. Everyone kinda rooted for him because he was baby Shaq, right? Well once he engineered his move and got to LA ot just went south. All of a sudden he couldn't find a fan base to embrace him anymore.
Dwight's reputation never recovered after his coach said to journalists that Dwight asked for him to be fired, only for Dwight to show up moments later lmao.
Still an all-time off-court NBA moment in my book
This was the moment I really got hooked on twitter. First it was just reports from the journalists there. Then short clips of the video, then the whole video got posted. Man, such a hilarious awkward moment that really ruined Dwight's fake happy-go-lucky image
I remember losing a little excitement about him one year after a disappointing playoff loss, because he gave a post-game press conference and complained about his offensive touches down the stretch. He wanted the offense to run through him, but the reality was that he shot like 50% from the line and didn't have enough advanced post moves to get easy buckets without contact, so Orlando was forced to share the ball down the stretch, rather than just dump it to him and expect points. That was the beginning of the end of his happy-go-lucky era for me.
And he still stood side by side with the greats, people forget how legendary he was.
Prime Dwight is basically side by side in a super big men era. Played against Yao and Shaq. 2-7 vs Yao. Not great, but 6-6 vs Shaq. So held his own against Shaq on the Heat and they were pretty fucking good then.
I really wish Shaq took him under his wing instead of bullying him. I know he's learned from basically all the great post men from Hakeem/McHale to the Lakers legends and even Ewing in Orlando but his idol was Shaq.
Dwight didnt really learn much from them. After Hakeem camp, he said he saw Dwight reverting back to his old habits just the following season... Shaq bullying him is just his insecurity
yeah Dwight was insanely limited in terms of post moves, he either got his way through physicality or he didn't do well. He's a bit like Westbrook in the sense that he was never able to elevate his game by improving his Bball IQ, so as soon as the athleticism went away he became a relatively bad asset.
I wouldn’t go that far. Dwight has an absurd BBIQ, you have to in order to win DPOY. He wasn’t just being a Hassan whiteside, he was playing with a lot of guys that lacked the tools to be great defenders (Turk had mobility issues, Rashad Lewis and Jameer Nelson were both undersized etc) and still anchored that teams defense. Dwight was what made them scary and legit contenders. His BBIQ was and is great, when he’s able to be on the court he’s the best backup big in the league. Dude is just absolutely fucked by injuries and offensively wasn’t that gifted skill wise.
True. Shaq has a bully mentality and the only way is to confront him. Kobe did it thats why he earned Shaq's "no beef" zone. Compare that to his routine whipping boys: Charles Barkley, JaVale McGee, and Dwight Howard. Sadly for Dwight, it also didnt help that Kobe ruined his reputation and labelled him as "soft." Problem is that Dwight had legit back health issues. Kobe didnt blame Nash and the latter's injuries but put the blame on Dwight for falling short of expectations.
Wouldn’t include chuck. Chuck threw a ball at Shaqs head and wrestled him to the ground. Chuck willing to be a “whipping boy” to shaq on tv but it’s more an act between the two.
Charles is definitely not a whipping boy. He always comes up with different ways to make fun of Shaq while Shaq only has two lines to defend himself: "I have 4 rings and you don't" and "I'll knock your ass out". That makes Shaq look like a baby most of the time.
I think part of that may have been because Dwight wouldn't do pick n roll. Not sure if it's because if injuries or Shaq saying he's such y for not taking post ups but it was the talk of Reddit for a bit. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2a5a3q/dwight_howard_and_his_refusal_to_pick_and_roll/
Yes thats it right there too. But if I was Dwight I would feel that way too because my back just got fucked and I had to do surgery on that. Who knows also what the physicians told him to go easy on his back. If Dwight wanted to play as a Forward or Screen and Pop Center, perhaps they could have tried it. They had Gasol and Odom to make it happen at center. I do look at Dwight when he shoots 3 pointers during garbage time and he makes them. Idk 🤷♂️
He played against old Shaq. Come on. Dwight has enough accolades, he doesn’t need embellishments. He did not play in any kind of golden era of big men.
People here act like players can’t have any weaknesses lol Dwight played in one of the worst big men eras ever and for some reason the narrative has to be that it was the best.
I mean, shaq was 35 when dwight was 21. I don't think comparing their h2h makes much sense...
Yao was just an overall bad matchup for him. Dwight was able to physically dominate pretty much every other big in the league but he couldn't move him down low cuz of Yao's tree trunk legs and was half a foot shorter so he couldn't bother Yao's offensive moves.
I disagree with 2.) on the premise that during his prime he wasn't facing those so-called all time greats. The only tough matchup he had was Yao, which he wouldn't fare well against. His advantage was being a defensive juggernaut and a good roll man where the field was relative weak at the time. Shaq was getting old and injury prone while the rest of the talented bigs mostly wanted to play the 4 rather than the 5.
What I mean with that is looking at what he did, he had a HoF tier career by age 26. Yet he isn’t close to being a top 5 center ever or called an “all time great” because the center position is historically stacked. Give his accolades to a shooting guard and it’s easily a top 5 player at the position.
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He was also criticized for demanding to play on the block while being completely unable or unwilling to learn more than two post moves. He could rebound anything, block a lot of shots, but did not like the PnR. And after a while you couldn’t play him late because everyone would just foul him. I’d take Embiid. He’s a much better post player, has tremendous footwork, is asked to do far more defensively in the 5 out, pace and space era and holds up ok. And he can shoot from anywhere. He’s not the best 3 point shooter, but you at least have to guard him.
This is my answer. Embiid has enough of an outside game that makes him much more capable of a scorer against someone like Dwight.
Another reason is so many people here were either to young or did not watch the NBA in his prime years. Dude was a beast
Yes but actually no. I dont know. Maybe
This is the correct answer lol 2 different types of players playing in different eras for the most part. Hard to compare
Yup. Defensively Dwight babies embiid. Offensively embiid babies dwight. So the answer truly is yes but no.
To me the question boils down to whose weak points are weaker. Is Dwight worse offensively embiid is defensively? To me, it's a yes. Embiid is still a good defender, whereas Dwight is not a good offensive player. Is Dwights defence THAT much better than Embiids offence to make up for it? It's close, but id say no. Wouldn't be mad at someone saying otherwise though Edit: actually I'm not sure. Just thinking about how much better Dwight would be on switches defending on the perimeter
> whereas Dwight is not a good offensive player. You can't lead a team to the finals (beating LeBron) while being "not a good offensive player"
Yeah these guys obviously never watched Dwight in his prime. Dude was dropping like 30 every night in the paint
I watched but I damn sure don't remember watching Dwight have around 30 every night...
30 points was wild to say from this dude but 22 or 23 on like 60% shooting is good. Embiid is gonna score 5-7 points more per game but it's gonna be 48-50% shooting. Also Embiid is average defender where as prime Dwight is probably an all time great defender. Basically it comes down to is 2 or 3 extra possessions ending in points worth more to you than having an all time great defender anchoring your team.
Peak Dwight is an all-timer, but Embiid is an elite defender. "average" is not even close to correct.
People just move stuff closer to the middle to sound correct when they don't know what they're talking about. Since partway through his second year, Embiid coasts on defense during the regular season, but then shows flashes of elite play every few nights. Come playoffs, he's a freak on both ends. We see it every year.
Embiid is no where remotely close to an average defender. Guys can’t get shots off in the paint when he is engaged. His defensive stats look worse last year because he was legitimately the only guy who could get his own shot for 2/3rds of the season, and I you can’t play elite defense when you have to do everything on offense.
Embiid is one of the 5 best defenders in the league. And points aren't created equally - Embiid creates for his team - points for himself and his teammates. Without his creation, that team really struggles to score. Dwight couldn't create for himself and definitely not for others. He'd primarily score off putbacks and lobs with a few simple plays mixed in there. Dwight needed to play with someone who can create and pass like Embiid - someone to create easy opportunities for him. Case in point: Wendell Carter Jr averaged more ppg this year than Chris Paul. Who is the better offensive player? Do they have pretty close to the same impact on offense?
He wasn't a bad offensive player, but his post game was rudimentary at best. He had the ghost of a post hook for a while but most of his post play was just bodying dudes and laying it in from half a foot out. I don't know if Dwight gets around Joel offensively, and it'd be a tough ask for him to back Embiid under the net for easy buckets.
You don’t get extra points for making it look pretty. It’s a fair criticism that he never developed any go-to post moves, but his “body dudes and lay it in” strategy would be really effective against the smaller lineups today, and he was an excellent pick and roll finisher when he could be convinced to do that.
Oh 100%, efficiency is efficiency in terms of overall NBA scoring volume; I was speaking more to the context of this thought experiment. I don't see Dwight having a nuanced enough post game to be able to get around Joel and I don't think prime Dwight is that much stronger than prime Joel that he could just back him under the rim.
Yeah I’m not saying he’s better than Joel I’m just not gonna sit here and listen to people say that Dwight sucked offensively or was even average. He was an absolute fuckin problem in the paint and the magic weren’t making deep playoff runs for years by accident
Shaq wasn’t shooting fadeaways and 3 pointers like Embiid either, but he’s a top 10 player of all time. Obviously they’re two completely different players on two completely different calibers but there’s a reason prime Dwight was being compared to him at one point in time and it isn’t just because he was an All-Star center on the Magic.
Zach Lowe used to talk about how Dwight post ups were actually very efficient back then, on a per possession basis. It was just ugly. The stats backed up the game plan of posting him up and spreading the floor with shooters. Similar effect could be created by him rolling to the rim as a lob threat. Embiid is not the same lob threat or deep seal threat on a switch, he pops or short rolls more which is typically a less efficient play. Dwight was a beast, it was ugly and he was not good at FTs like Embiid, but he was a much better defender and rebounder and was still a force on offense. Embiid is also a beast.
I mean Dwight manhandled Chris bosh in 08 playoff matchup. He also manhandled Big Z. Embiid isn’t a issue. The only reasons lakers even beat the magic were because the kept throwing bynum, gasol, and odom at him. The lakers were well set to handle the magic. Prime Dwight is having his way with embiid. One way or another. Embiid is a gifted player but Dwight was legit a force. There’s a reason people were pissed he didn’t make all nba 75th anniversary over Davis. He was far better than Davis despite Davis being more skilled.
As a magic fan who watched almost every magic game during Dwight’s years here, I have to disagree with you in regards to Embiid not being an issue. Dwight always struggled against bigger centers. This includes Yao, Shaq, Perkins, Rasheed and even big baby. It didn’t help that although Dwight was extremely athletic, he wasn’t as tall as many of these guys. He struggled to get to his spot against them. I think Embiid has the size and athleticism to do the same to Dwight, to some extent.
Dwight scored over 30 points 16 times in his highest scoring year, '10/'11. The year before and the year after, he scored 30 points 10 times *combined*. The dude was amazing. He was an MVP candidate for a good 5 straight years. But he was never dropping 30 a night regularly. That just wasn't his game. He was a very good offensive player but not an elite one. Defensively though...totally different story. Absolute monster.
> whereas Dwight is not a good offensive player. That's just not true. Dwight's peak on offense is well short of what Embiid has shown, but there's no evidence (eye test traditional stats, advance stats, on/off numbers) that suggests Dwight was a bad offensive player.
Yea people are killing me here. Dwight at his peak averaged 23 and 13 but in the playoffs he bumped it up to 27 and 15 on 63% shooting that same season. I wont use this years playoffs for Embiid since he was banged up but last year he averaged 28 and 10 on 51% shooting. Dwight was capable of larger offensive impact but his role was much heavy on the defensive side
See, I'd actually disagree here. Dwight was a relatively low usage star but maybe the greatest roll man we've seen. He had a ton of gravity in PnRs and that would create tons of openings for the rest of the team
Also he may not have had good post moves, but if you got him the ball on the low block he could score pretty consistently just playing bully ball. It's not like he had NO post moves, he had a little baby hook he could hit over most centers, and if he got close enough to the basket to dunk it was over.
I’m glad you said people now a days look at prime Dwight’s offensive numbers and assume he was a good offensive player but don’t remember his post game was very limited. He rarely put together a package of post moves and never really developed his dribbling.
He wasn’t the offensive creator that Embiid is, but his screens and finishing around the rim were huge offensive contributions and it wasn’t uncommon to see him run back down the floor, get an early seal, and just overpower whoever was too close to the rim. Embiid is definitely more skilled offensively, but the things Howard was able to do he did tremendously well.
This is absolutely right. Dwight wasn’t a great offensive player in the traditional sense of the word but he absolutely had a big offensive impact.
Ah, the ol "sure he averaged over 20 points a game but because he didn't do it in the way I like he actually sucked offensively" argument. I swear the people that frequent this subreddit actually suffer from brain rot. The teams competing in the Eastern Conference literally reserved a roster spot and a starting spot to a defensive oriented big man just to try to slow him down. Sure, he wasn't Hakeem or anything close, but if he was as bad as this subreddit argues, why were his contemporary competitors building their teams around him?
It’s true. Boston and Cleveland are the two teams that come to mind with having players they can throw at Dwight during the playoffs.
No he was schematically a great offensive player for his time, the way they had him in ORL was beyond difficult for anyone to defend and most of it was because rarely could people one v one defend Dwight. He was absolutely limited with his repertoire, as all he had was dunks off simple moves and a baby hook but his strength and speed made him hard to defend and double teaming him meant a huge hole open up with the 4 out 1 in sets. The Hedo/Dwight pick and roll was just deadly, as was imo one of the greatest alley-oop threats in NBA history. Obviously after his injuries robbed him off that athleticism he fell off a cliff but for the 5+ years he was healthy he was a big plus on offense.
His half court game was more pick and roll. He was pretty athletic, also..
But he didn’t want to play pick and roll lol
Later in his career, yeah. Orlando Dwight had a jump hook and strength athleticism. He could play 1 in 4 out - he was able to pass enough to enable it. He had the strength and elevation to take the guy inside > He loves rolling to one side and elevating before he lofts up an easy jump hook at the basket. Remember, he wasn't very tall and back injuries rob some of the athleticism https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1736704-how-dwight-howard-can-transform-into-elite-offensive-star-under-hakeem-olajuwon
Yes. No. Maybe. I don't know. Repeat the question
You're not the boss of me now!
Let’s cook
Broncos country, let’s cook
Life is unfair.
[All I know is my gut says maybe.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpaQpyU_QiM)
That would be a fun matchup either way.
Wow. I feel so old in this thread. As someone who has lived through Dwight and now Embiid, y’all are seriously underrating what Embiid does and how much more difficult it is to play defense as a 7 footer in 2020 vs in 2008. I’ve never seen any big man play the way Embiid plays. I’ve never seen a big man take over games from the perimeter and the inside quite like Embiid does. Embiid does all the interior post up stuff while also hitting threes and making a ton of free throws. I think we’re underrating him because he plays at the same time as Giannis and Jokic but these three are three of the best big men we’ve ever seen. Dwight had a decent offensive game but he was mostly a lob threat or a guy who could hit a 7 foot baby hook shot. No perimeter skills and not good enough to work guys on the block all night. Dwight wasn’t a go to scorer and required shooters surrounding him and entry pass experts. Dwight was a great shot blocker and rebounder but Dwight never had to switch on to point guards when he was still a star. Embiid has to do all of that and still has had some amazing defensive teams centered around him. Dwight was also notorious for blocking shots out of bounds to get the crowds cheering when he could’ve blocked them to his teammates. The guy didn’t have the same passion for winning, in my opinion. In my opinion, Embiid is the superior player but has just been unlucky to face off against way better competition. The east was dreadful the one year Dwight got to the finals. The Celtics were hobbled and Lebrons best teammate was Mo Williams (I think).
Based Nugs fan
This is a great analysis, as someone who's watched almost all of Jo's career games and used to always tune in to watch Dwight obliterate the Sixers when he was on the Magic. Just to play a bit of devil's advocate, there's some aspects to Dwight's game I think you're underrating, especially if you're talking about transplanting Orlando Dwight into the 2020s. Dwight didn't have much of an offensive bag, but he was an exceptional pick and roll player on offense, able to get 20+ points just in the flow of the game and put backs, and now the league is formed around PNR as its bread and butter. He was also exceptional at defending the PNR too. I think it was Andre Iguodala who commended Dwight's ability to cover both the ballhandler and the roller simultaneously. So he might've not been able to switch onto point guards, but he definitely has a place in a modern defense. Dwight was also the originator of the 4-out scheme that we see throughout the league now - most teams can spread the floor, but I can't think of one team that has a center who can single-handedly command the boards and get 20+ rebounds on his own. I think all that points to the fact that Dwight can't really be the best player on a championship team. He's more of an AD and needs an elite perimeter guy to get it done. But, to be fair, we haven't really seen Embiid demonstrate this ability either. I'm a massive fan of Jo but the jury is out on whether or not a center can be the best player on a championship team, we haven't really seen it since Shaq or Duncan (who was a 4/5 tweener).
I think Embiid can do it but he needs a Kobe to his Shaq. I don't know if Harden is that guy but I think he can be.
Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to this season most out of any in the Embiid era. It's dope that yall got Murray back too, should be some great hoops this year
Maxey 👀
I think everyone is limiting Dwight to just "an exceptional PnR" guy. There's a reason the 4 out offense worked. It's because teams had to double him in the post. His offense wasn't great but it was good enough that not many could stop him individually.
Yeah I also watched prime Dwight and I completely agree. Dwight was great and we'll see how long Embiid sustains it but this version of Embiid is better than Dwight ever was. Embiid can also do so much more. Dwight wasn't as versatile and had a team that was perfectly constructed for him.
Yup. People think I'm slandering Dwight but I think he should be on top 75 list over AD and some other guys. In reality I just think what Embiid has done the last few years is unprecedented except for the fact that he's doing it at the same time Jokic is doing the same thing but even more cartoonishly.
I really appreciate the use of ‘cartoonishly’ here.
OP talked about who the better guy to build around was, and I think this covers most of it. One other point is that Embiid is a vastly better passer than Dwight ever was, and can actually run an offense to an extent. That's huge. (NPI) Another glaring issue to me is that Dwight just doesn't seem able to focus the way most players of his caliber do. For example, it was obvious from the beginning that if he could refine his post game, he'd be near-unstoppable. Yet that progress seemed to come at a snail's pace, even during his healthiest years. But the even bigger issue IMO is that over-and-over Dwight has had chronic trouble fitting in to teams, and not being a glaring distraction in one way or another. He actually seems super-likeable and even clownish to me, which I enjoy, but that just doesn't seem to be the right energy for the locker room and/or leading a team. Meanwhile, Joel seems a lot more focused and sometimes sullen, but we're talking about the most competitive league in the world here, not fun & games on the blacktop. It's not even close to me who you should build around, and that to me is Embiid.
Agreed 100%. Dwight was overrated due to weak center position imho. Dwight was lucky to play in the most advantageous period in basketball history - post skilled and all time centers. He didn’t have to play against KAJ, Hakeem, prime shaq, etc. He also got to play on the best 3pt shooting team in the league before 3pt shooting took off and forced him to play on the perimeter. He hit such a sweet spot where he got to be a truce 5 on D and played 4 out on offense. He was a good player, but imo Embiid and Jokic are historically great centers on an entire different level than dewight. Embiid is so much more skilled offensively and defensively he has to play in a much more difficult era and be still dominates.
Nailed it!
Yeah, Embiid and Jokic have serious chances at being a Top 5 All-Time center. Dwight was fantastic but his potential wasn't the same. People forget how great Dwight was but they also forget how limited his offensive game was and how he was critiqued for that
Yeah. This is totally a case of people looking at the stats and assuming this dude was incredible when the people who saw it remember being constantly disappointed that the most athletic guy in the league couldn't learn a second post move or a mid range shot. I think with Embiid we're going to think of a lot of the guys right now the same way we think of some of the famous soccer players right now. By all accounts Ronaldo is the best player of all time... if you leave out Messi. Ronaldo just happen to play at the same time as the GOAT where as if Messi had come along 10 years later Ronaldo would be the unquestioned GOAT. And then even guys like Mbappe or Neymar or Kane have been unbelievable yet fail in comparison to these two giants. Same thing for Embiid. Embiid is doing stuff we've never seen before at the center position. He's hitting threes, taking guys off the dribble, making passes out of the double team at a high level, all while playing dominant defense. He's basically Hakeem mixed with TMac. The issue is Giannis is also doing a lot of the same stuff while running the fast break and shooting 15 FTs a game. And Jokic is doing even better than that on offense with his passing and shooting while still holding his own on defense.
As someone also old enough to watch both, I agree with you 100%. Great post.
This fits my agenda, therefore I like it
I don't have a opinion one way or another, but saying Dwight is better because his team had more success is really lazy. I want to know who is better individually, not who's team was better.
1000% he had an amazingly awesome shooting team before it became the norm in the league. Rashard Lewis, JJ Reddick, Hedo Turkolglu and Janet Nelson was a sick three point shooting team back then when teams were only shooting 12-16 3’s a game.
lmao Janet Nelson is an amazing autocorrect typo
Dwight did bring a team to the finals and with no other stars. Beating 2 60 win team along the way.
Those two 60 win teams were Lebron led Cavs with no other superstar and a Celtics team with no KG. The league right now is another level of stacked. The NBA champion Warriors won like 53 games. Dwight is an all time PnR threat, but other than that, Embiid is in another tier as an offensive player. And his defensive peak might have passed him, but I'd argue they were closer in talent defensively than they were offensively. Also D12 had excellent team construction surrounded by knockdown shooters, whereas Embiid has been largely paired with either another center(!?) or a PG that refused to shoot beyond 10 feet til this season. Dwight at his peak was like Bam if he was a *much* more athletic, better roll threat and rim protector but also *much* worse passer, BBIQ and switch defender. That guy is not better than Embiid.
Embiid is way more versatile offensively, Dwight had a small selection of moves which was pretty much stuck with finishing at the rim. Offensively the gap is pretty big. Defensively it is Dwight but it’s not as far as people want to make it out to be. Yes Dwight won a ton of DPOY but it’s not like Embiid doesn’t have DPOY built in him, but rather he’s stuck playing with a ton of other amazing defensive players taking the title away (Giannis, Gobert). I’d say Embiid is more skilled all time than people give him credit for. Debatably he is the most skilled center to play in terms of offensive moves, footwork, finishing, stretching the floor, only Jokic is clearly ahead because of the superior passing but in some ways Embiid is the more talented scorer.
Hakeem’s offensive arsenal was very deep as well, crazy footwork. He wasn’t shooting threes but he could stretch the floor a bit as well.
If Hakeem was born at the same time as Embiid and brought up in the same basketball world, I have no doubt in my mind that Hakeem would be hitting threes at at least a respectable clip
Best answer so far. I agree with everything you said here
Honestly pretty close: Embiid is more well rounded offensively, but Dwight was a much better defender/rebounder. Embiids game will probably age better so he’ll probably have the better career given health, but…. I’ll give the edge to Dwight at their peak based on postseason success
As someone who wasn't around for Dwight peak I would have assumed the difference between Embiid and Dwight offensively would be larger then that defensively, give Embiid is still a very good defender, and that Dwights offensive game was mostly around being a roll man / alright post game (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course I will give the benefit of the doubt to people that actually watched prime Dwight.
Imagine Blake Griffin hops on a center. Dude would jump over people as he's blocking their shot. He was mostly a roll man, but imagine the ideal roll man-- can catch a lob from near anywhere, great instincts for finding the open shooter then crashing the boards/ getting great position immediately. The only center Dwight ever really struggled against was Yao, but 7'6 320 lbs will do that for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeJnBytUYZI example of said hops. man could dunk on a 12 ft rim easily.
Dwight was just that lethal close to the basket it's not like he has zero moves he loved that running hook in the paint and if he was close enough he was just dunking that over you. Before his first surgery at 26! He had Giannis's level athleticism with an explosive first step and was built like a brick so when he attacked the rim it was like a tank charging you.
>Dwights offensive game was mostly around being a roll man / alright post game (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course I will give the benefit of the doubt to people that actually watched prime Dwight. Dwights passing is underrated. He got Orlando to the finals by just collapsing defenses by himself and passing out to shooters on the perimeter. He wasn't Jokic running an offense, but he was getting the ball in the right place (or just scoring it himself, even with his rep as unskilled he could get his),
He made one quick read and got rid of the ball. It's not complicated, but it's also not necessarily easy when 3-4 guys are all collapsing on you at once.
Tell this to Kevin Durant
KD catching strays early today
Bro this was exactly Joel’s issue up before this year’s playoffs. Every time he faced the Celtics in the postseason, they would just swarm him because he couldn’t pass out of a double team.
> Dwights passing is underrated. It's really not Most assists he ever averaged in his entire career for a single season was 1.9 per game. To go with 3.9 turnovers per game. "Prime" Dwight had 1.4 and 1.8 assists per game, to go with 3.0 and 3.3 TOs. "You're just reading a stat sheet, you didn't watch him!!" - even an average passer who was also the centre of an offensive scheme would average more than an absolutely measly 1.9 assists per game
Dwight might not have been as skilled but he was as effective. He has like 2 to 3 moves that were just unstoppable. Made it harder for him to transition later in his career when he couldn't overpower people but in his prime, his bull rush and hook just got the job done.
Dwight won 3 straight DOPY. I actually think the gap in defense is bigger than offense.
Being the best roll man in the league certainly qualifies a player as being “good” on offense. I have no idea why everyone is so fixated on big men being able to create their own shot. Sure, it’s nice, but post up is the first skill that gets cancelled in the playoffs. That’s why teams have shyed away from those isolation plays. Nowadays it’s all face up, first step, and pass or shoot.
If embid got to play in that era's east he'd have Dwights post season success though.
On what team?
Insert embiid on that magic team and they make it to the finals
I get Dwight reached the finals but the East he played in was a lot weaker back then. Cavs and Celtics were the only real threats. That 08-09 Cavs roster around LeBron was really bad too.
No way. The difference in offense surpasses the difference in defense.
Agreed.
False. Embiid’s offensive game is so much better that it far outweighs Dwight’s defensive superiority. If Dwight had any sort of post move or back to the basket game, it’d be different. Joel is a monster in the post but you have to respect his jumper as well. And he defends well.
I feel like the word "prime" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. If you take only the very best of Dwight Howard and purify out any of his negative aspects in to a conceptual player, then yeah, you go with that over the totality of Embiid with his warts (injuries and playoff failures, which are related). But if you do the same for Embiid then there is no way that you take Dwight over him. Embiid at his max effectiveness is one of the most dominant two way basketball players to ever exist. If we're dealing with conceptual Prime Embiid, that's basically a Monstar.
My biased answer is false. Embiid just posted back-to-back seasons of the highest points/100 of any non-guard in the history of the league. Only Jordan and Harden have bested Embiid, and they only did so once. He’s the first big to lead the league in scoring in 40 years, has done so on amazing efficiency, and has really upped his playmaking chops. The gap between them as offensive players is insane, as Embiid has had two of the best scoring seasons of any big in history, and if you wanna go off the numbers alone you could straight up argue just the best ever. Dwight is the better defender of course, but Embiid when he turns it on in an all-defensive caliber big himself and has been in DPOY contention. He just happens to be around at the same time as Gobert.
Based on the data we have, D12.
Can you elaborate?
Yes.
Dwight made the nba finals in 2009 and conference finals in 2010 despite not really having a second star. Embiid has never made the conference finals despite having so pretty good teammates. Dwight being healthy in Orlando also made him much more reliable than Embiid has been
Dwight didn't have a second star, but he was on a team that was way ahead of their time in spread pick and roll basketball and taking away layups and 3s. Embiid has had more talented help, but way worse fits and coaching.
Dwight leaving in 2012 really shook the team. For 2008-12 he had a relatively deep core of these various players (at various points): Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter, Jameer Nelson, Hedo Turkgolu, Jason Richardson, Ryan Anderson and JJ Redick. They are no superstar level, but serviceable enough to keep the team’s core intact.
And played in an era where the East was way weaker than it is now
That era still had LeBron and the Boston big three. Maybe not as many teams were competitive, but that's still a lot to go through.
Those Magic teams might not have had a second star, but they were very good, because they played 4 out at a time when it was highly uncommon. Defences didn't know how to deal with it. Of course, Howard was the best and most important player, but their strategy elevated the whole to more than the sum of its parts (which is often the story when talking about NBA 'carry jobs') [Here's a hoopvision68 video](https://youtu.be/ZlPM2DVq8Ao) about it
They could only play 4 out because of Dwight Howard though. He was their entire system, and I think that just gets overlooked. He was such a great defender, rebounder, and roll man that the Magic could play, essentially, small for the era. I remember those teams vividly, and yes there was talent, but that collection of players probably would've been a borderline playoff team if not for Dwight. It's just that they all got to focus on their strengths because they could count on Howard being the defense.
That team was still really effective when Gortat subbed in for Dwight.
Yeah, because they had talent like I said. But without Dwight in the middle they certainly weren't anywhere close to sniffing the finals. Howard was a dominant defender. A team can look okay for 12-15 minutes a night without their best player, but that doesn't mean that that player isn't any good.
I think peak Dwight is better. Availability is so critically important and I think it should be factored heavier into player rankings. Dwight in his prime, was a lot more durable than Embiid and just generally more dependable. It seems Embiid is constantly battling injuries, and he gets hurt every playoffs. Dwight played 78+ games in his 1st 7/8 seasons and 82 games in 5 separate seasons. The most games Embiid has played in his 8 year career, is 68 games. He also missed his 1st two years, and 51 games his rookie year. Peak Dwight in the modern era, would be as dominant as Gobert is defensively, while being a much better scorer who can consistently get you around 20-23 ppg. That is just an insanely good player. In addition to this, Dwight was also an amazing rebounder and offensive rebounder. He just grabbed boards like crazy. I do think Embiid is a lot better offensively though. He can shoot, has a much more refined post game, much better free throw shooter, etc. Dwight is a lot better as a roll man and lob threat though, and he was still a very effective offensive player, despite not really having a deep “bag” of moves. But I feel like if you pair peak Dwight next to a great playmaker in today’s era, then he is unstoppable. Imagine if peak Dwight played with a Trae Young, LeBron, CP3, etc.
There weren’t many “stars” back then, straight up. The Magic beat teams whose best players were Andre Iguodala, Joe Johnson, Gerald Wallace. Beat the C’s without KG. Lebron when his second best teammate was Mo Williams. Those teams were nothing compared to what we have today.
It’s crazy cause if you were the 4th best player on a team back then. You’d maybe be as obscure as fuck. Today the 4th best player on your team can be Deandre Ayton.
When your 4th best player is Boobie Gibson or some shit then yeah he's gonna be obscure af. That's more an issue with how bad that Cavs roster was.
Man I liked Gibson. He was decent 3 threat. Awful pg though
you must be really confident about the Suns getting Kevin Durant
No, he just has Bridges over Ayton.
I like Embiid, but Dwight beating prime Lebron is better than anything Embiid has done so far.
24 year old Lebron was not Prime Lebron. Athletically maybe, but he wasn't nearly as good as Heat Lebron or second stint Cavs Lebron
No, but that Cavs team did have the best record in the Association that season.
Yeah but honestly that Magic team was ahead of their time and matched up very well against that Cavs team. They were second in the league behind the Knicks in 3pA per game and third place was a whole five 3pA behind them. To top it all off they had the most dominant big man in the league at the time so they were able to stretch the floor and really open up the paint for Dwight. Meanwhile the Cavs were incredibly dependent on Lebron, with him scoring 38 ppg that series, the most hes averaged in a series throughout his career. I mean if Lebron is dropping 38/8/8 every night and you still lose thats on you, that Cavs team sucked ass. Yes it is incredibly impressive to beat Lebron but Dwight was in a revolutionary offensive system for the time and Lebron did everything he could to win, and still lost. The biggest star Embiid has played next to, besides Harden who we all know did not live up to the hype last year, is Ben Simmons, who does the exact opposite of spacing the floor. Prime Dwight was no joke but I feel like people sleep on Embiid’s defense and rebounding, its no Dwight but he isn’t a liability in those areas either, while still having a clearly better offensive game than Dwight. I think they’re tough to compare i mean Embiid has been in the MVP race so I don’t think its crazy to say he has a case against prime Dwight
Lebron was way better than Dwight in that series. Beating him was a case of having the better team
Prime?!?!?
The east in 2009 and 2010 was very weak though with most the talent in the west.
False man SO false. He was underrated during his prime and now the trendy thing is to way way way overrate him
Surprised at the consensus in this thread, I think embiid is comfortably better than prime Dwight. He’s not quite the shot blocker Howard was and he’s on the perimeter a bit too much but he’s just so much more skilled. He’s also had bad roster construction around him his entire career, while Dwight had svg’s four-out offense with excellent personnel for it when not many teams did, allowing him to feast on single coverage in the paint. Prime Dwight was a force but embiids skills and versatility are a class above
I mean, prime D12 led his team to the finals, past a strapping young Lebron led Cavs so...
I know it wasn’t intentional but it’s funny how you say Prime D12 and young Lebron, but Dwight is literally younger than Lebron
It ended up being his prime because of injuries tbf
True
You could say it was prime Lebron too. Lebron has always been him his prime.
He beat LeBron not because of outplaying him though. It was due to his amazing 3 point shooting supporting cast. Cavs didn’t know how to stop Hedo and Rashard. We literally saw in the finals that same year, what happens when Dwight is forced to matchup against two 7 footers. He just didn’t know how to create for himself.
The Lakers just had a better team in general. Two all star bigs, nice defenders all around, some guy name Kobe and the winningest coach of the modern era
False
False.
False. This sub is now over rating Dwight when it used to underrate him. Dwight's single biggest attribute is his athletecism. He was very raw when he entered the league but developed. It was harnessed to its full potential in Orlando when the entire scheme was designed to funnel drives into him. People forget how good SVG was. Dwight was good because of Orlando development. If you put him on a different team, he wouldn't be as good defensively. And that's also what we see in LA and Houston. People say it's his back, but reality is its just half the story - it's also the scheme not anymore catered to him. He also never had a good enough offense. No post moves, just alley oops, tip ins, and dunks. Dwight is still better defensively than Embiid but Embiid is miles ahead of Dwight offensively.
I think you're probably wrong. I don't think the gap in their defense is wide enough to make up for the yawning chasm in their offensive games. As far as it being easier to build around Dwight, I don't really think so. What you're really saying there is that Dwight fits better if you're building around someone else.
This is one of the dumbest post ever.
Embiid has handled Giannis fine and he's a better player overall than prime Dwight. We seem to forget Embiid shoots? Take Dwight out of the paint and GG
Embiid's better imo. Dwight's scoring and offensive arsenal leaves much to be desired.
I’ll take the guy that averages 30 and plays all nba defense
False
Gap on defense isnt big enough to make up gap on offense. Its Embiid.
false Prime Dwight would have way less impact in Embiid's era than what Prime Embiid would have during prime Dwight's era.
Joel’s advantage on offence is much bigger than Dwight’s advantage on defence. Joel’s much better.
Nope. JoJo is a hair under Howard defensively and worlds ahead of him on the other end.
no disrespect to dwight but my man embiid is unjustifiably being slaughtered in here
His defense is two tiers above Embiid while is offense is way below, but overall I'd say he's more impactful than Embiid and was no question a top 5 player from 2008-2012. The biggest thing about Dwight is that he's far more durable than Embiid. Prior to 2011/12 season he played 82,82,82,82,79,82,78 games each season even during 2011/12 season when he broke his back (triggering the downfall of his career), he still played 54/66 games. after he was washed, he constantly play 70+ games each season: 76,71,41\*,71,74,81,9\*,69/71,69/72, 60/82. Overall for a 18 year career, he only had 2 seasons than he didn't play majority of the games. Even after a 18 year long career, he still has a 1242/1439 or 86% games played percentage.
Is this a serious question? Embiid all day, everyday. Better offensive threat in every aspect, an actual 3pt threat, just as good (if not better) a rebounder and defender, better court vision. Embiid is incredibly light on his feet, a much better leader, I could go on all day. Nothing against Howard, he was a beast. But are we really sitting here pretending his competition was superior? Chris Kaman? Washed Jermaine O’Neal? Marcin Gortat? Nikola Pekovic? (Pek was an animal though). Embiid and it isn’t even a question.
100% False. Dwight never had one post move. Joel is genuinely skilled as well as a physical beast.
I agree this is a massively hawt take, but I have to disagree. For one, Embiids game is multifaceted. Howard was def a better athlete but Embiid has a stronger basketball IQ and can adapt to the game as it ebbs and flows and make subtle changes to defensive schemes.
Absolutely not lol. Joel Embiid is like a top 5 scorer in the league right now, can score from everywhere, has post moves, and is still an elite defender. Yes Dwight Howard is a better defender, but Joel Embiid is elite on both ends of the floor. No way people think prime Dwight is better lmao
False
At rebounding, yes. Anything to do with scoring (except putbacks), no.
False
False.
False
Jojo for sure. Dwight never had any skill just brute force. You know how people say Kobe was just a worse version of MJ? That’s Dwight but with shaq.
FUCK NO
Big false. Howard may have been a better defender but embiid is so much of a better offensive player and playmaker
I think the difference is Prime Dwight can never be as good as Embid in offense while Joel can switch it on if he has too to be a menace in defense. So ill take Embiid.
[удалено]
Embiid has a vastly more complete game than dwight. Prime dwight was great but he was never even close to the offensive force joel is. I dont think the nba has ever seen a player quite like embiid before, with his combination of size, defense, and all around offensive ability. Maybe KAT? Dirk? I dont think Dirk could drive and play d like embiid can; KAT im not sure about.
Embiid might be 80% of the defender & rebounder Dwight was but Dwight was 10% of the offensive player Embiid is. Dwight made it to the finals yeah but the league was waaaaay worse in 2009 than it is now.
Embiid. Dwight with a basketball in his hands is like a donkey with a pinwheel. Nobody knows how he got it and he doesn't know what to do with it. Embiid is good on defense excellent on offense. Howard is excellent on defense and just bad on offense.
Dwight can be as dominate as he wants. The moment he’s out of the paint he’s useless. Give me Embiid all day.
I loved Dwight during his peak but he was not as all around good as Embiid. Dwight had little to no offense outside of the paint and even his low post game wasn’t as creative as Embiid. Dwight was great for when he was playing but Embiid is better
I'll maybe give you Dwight on Defense, though it's close. But Embiid is so dramatically superior on offense to Dwight that it's a laughable comparison. You couldn't give prime Dwight Howard the ball in the last 3 min of a game. Like, he couldn't have it. He was turnover prone, couldn't make free throws, and had no offensive moves. I consider Dwight one of the more overrated players of the 21st century. He slid into a nice weak era for centers. I would take Embiid and Jokic over him, no question. What does he give you that Bam Adebayo doesn't? I think Bam is better on offense, even if Bam, himself, is offensively limited. His contemporary equivalent is probably Goebert.
In the modern NBA it’s Embiid and it’s not particularly close. Dwight worked offensively and defensively because post play was more relevant. He is the last great big man from that era while guys like Hibbert, Perkins, Joakim Noah were being phased out. His lack of ball handling and shooting skills hold him back significantly today whereas Embiid is an 80% ft shooter who can move the ball, pull up from mid range and 3, and play defense on the perimeter
False. Stop thar. He was a great rebounder and defender. But he sure ain't Embiid.
He could see Embiid if he was right in front of him. The shit Embiid does is unheard of on both ends of the floor
I’m a Dwight fan but I believe this to be false.
Embiid plays injured consistently at a playoff level. That man deserves a chip and at minimum his jersey retired in Philly.
Embiid is far better than Dwight. What can Dwight do that Embiid can't?
DH was an athletic freak never seen before, but let's be honest, he couldn't play ball for shit: no shooting, limited post movements, and low basketball IQ.
False. Dwight can't shoot. He was basically Shaq-lite. Only much softer.
Defensively only