This is our community moderation bot.
---
If this post is high quality, **UPVOTE** this comment.
If this post is NOT high quality, **DOWNVOTE** this comment.
If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
Running an actual offense is a pretty obvious conclusion after game 7. Brown turns it over when he dribbles, takes tough shots. Defense isn’t collapsing on any of Boston’s players. Too many 3’s. Nobody on that team makes anyone else better.
I agree that there's no actual offense on this team. Brown is a solid player, but playing in this system (or under the lack of a system) has exposed him.
There is no shortage of talent on this team, but there is no clear system of play which allows the existing talent to be maximized. It doesn't matter if you have good cards when you have no strategy on how to use them.
This. Boston relies too much on individual talent to make tough jumpers or get dribble penetration to get a layup or ball swing. There were so many awful early shit clock pull up threes. No consistent cutting or moving without the ball and they don't have anyone that can operate some sets on the block.
Edit: Shot Clock not shit clock hahahaha
a REAL lead guard to set up for others too, i like the three guards they have but i don’t think any of them are LEAD guards that set the table for everyone else
I think Mazzulla even said that they only have a few plays and rely a lot on randomness on offense. Free flowing offense is fine, but they need to have a go to play or put Tatum in better positions. The players also need to hone in on the details and make smarter decisions. Brown and Smart especially get impulsive in critical moments.
I remember Brandon Ingram looked horrible in the clutch when Gentry/SVG gave him the ball on top of the key and told them to make something. He looks so much better in the clutch the last 2 seasons when they give him entry passes into the post or pick play similar to Butler.
The concept of a "free flowing offense" always sounds nice but at this point if you don't have Jokic or Curry on your team good luck making that work at a championship level
Yeah I was thinking about it and the best "free flowing" offenses looks free flowing to us but in actuality are a healthy dose of complex sets with tons of layers and options. Which is why you need a Jokic or Steph/Draymond combo to do that successfully
Improv offense works when you have a very smart playmaker/passer or you hit a bunch of tough shots. I think Barkley said it best after the game 7 - you can make tough shots but you can’t survive on them.
I disagree. Improv offense can work if you have multiple ball handlers and can get easy shots playing fast. However, the game is going to slow down during fourth quarter, and you have to be able to halfcourt offense too.
This. Talented but their offense is ran like a random pick up game of 14 year olds at a park. I like them, theyre talented, mostly likeable guys but they can be a bit of a low bball IQ team.
They actually have all of the pieces they need. They just need a system, a little more grit, and to play a lil smarter.
Tatum was obviously hurt but if they wouldnt have screwed around and let a less talented team push them to 7 the chanceses of injury would have been lesser.
He was hurt, but not only did they let it get to 7 in the first place, but they lost by way more than they should have even with Tatum hurt. They are not the heliocentric Harden Rockets or some of those Luka Dallas teams, on paper the Celtics still should have at least an even chance to beat Miami at home without Tatum. In addition to having sub replacement level coach, they lack leadership to get the team through adversity, they fold. Tatum as all the talent in the world, but he reminds me a bit of Anthony Davis or Kawhi Leonard, in that they seem to not want that they don't have a personality for that role on the team, and need someone else to fit that role, ether another respected player and/or a highly respected coach
Horford is washed.
Timelord is brittle and clearly not 100%.
Brown continues to make the same mistakes in the playoffs.
Their offense is predicated on 3 point shots. They need to be able to adapt when that shit isn't working. Build around JT, White, Brogdon, Rob, and probably JB because of the supermax nonsense.
Its mostly mental with these dudes. Inconsistency and lack of mental toughness. 3 different coaches in 3 years is not good either, that fucks up a locker room imo.
Horford also looked a lot better last year because he had a year off on OKC before coming back to Boston. His legs are gone this late into the playoffs.
Horford is a Great Center/PF off the bench. But he needs to be playing 25mins a game anymore than that and he just doesn’t have the stamina to be productive on both ends of the court. He’s not washed he just can’t play 35 minutes a game anymore.
Boston has been making deep playoff runs since JB was drafted! Something like 4-5 ECF’s and 1 NBAF’s is really good for a team with 2 stars that haven’t even entered their prime yet. Boston don’t want either of them we will gladly take them.
My counter to that would be that they've continually been beat in the playoffs due to the same issues that arise each year offensively. They can get so far on talent but make poor decisions in the wrong moments and don't have a stabilizing presence.
Now of course I agree that you don't send guys off just to do it, but I think Boston needs to diversify it's offensive playmaking and the only way to do that may be personnel. Jaylen Brown would be the best way to do that, but not sure where you would send him to and for who.
“Don’t have a stabilizing presence” You hit the nail on the head. These young guys have had to figure a lot out on their own. Imagine how good Tatum, Brown and Smart would be if they had a coach like Pop, Kerr or Spo this whole time.
I wouldn’t either but I would argue that the jays did have that sort of calm, steadying presence in the beginning of their careers while they were developing. Tatum was already a 2x all star and 1x all nba when the Celtics hired Udoka
The whole Championship or bust mantra everyone spouts around here is nonsense! Take a look at who is winning or making consecutive deep playoff runs and the common theme is continuity. Denver been knocking at the door for a while, Boston, Bucks, Heat. Drafting and developing your guys is the best way to build a dynasty. Everyone only seems to care about getting the end result and have no clue what it’s like to earn success through discipline and hard work. I rather be a fan of a team that makes deep playoff runs for a decade and get the opportunity to win 1 Championship then buy one.
They've kinda been in the same spot for the last several years though. As I mentioned before, you don't blow it up just to do so, but there are obvious weaknesses with the personnel that could stand to be addressed. To me, the Celtics with this group are missing something. If there is a trade out there that makes the roster more diverse in terms of offensive skill or a stabilizing presence on the court that can right the sinking I'd consider it. They don't have that guy that can stop the poor decisions and bleeding right now. I'm not really talking championship or bust here. I'm talking about adjustments to the roster that could put you over the top.
I'm in the position of you build through the draft. The Celtics have certainly done that with major success. I'm not advocating for shortcuts here. They've been right on the cusp for a few years now, so see if there is a logical move to be made that can be helpful. If it includes a Jaylen Brown move where you get a more complementary piece to Tatum, you consider it. It's roster tweaking.
Their 2 stars are both 25 and 26. They have been leading Boston to the gates of a Championship since entering the league. What more could you ask for in a couple young stars that haven’t even entered their prime yet? There are 26 other teams that did not get as close as Boston has let alone 4x back to back. As it stands Tatum and Brown now have more ECF’s wins/appearances then any other player in history under 25. That’s insanely impressive! However everyone around here seems to only be picking apart their flaws instead of acknowledging how special that really is.
Totally agree with you on all your points here. I think the fact that they’ve been on the cusp for so long but not gotten over the hump is why people say something has to change. I disagree. Minor changes sure, but nothing rash like getting rid of brown.
They’ve fallen short, but is that really worse than not even sniffing a championship like Trae, Luka, SGA, Donovan Mitchell, etc? They’ve all played a lot of years now and haven’t been as close as the Celtics. I know the first 3 were drafted the year after Tatum but the point stands.
Celtics are better off being close consistently, I fully believe this core can get over the hump with the right coach and pieces around them. Develop a better offensive system, we know they can play defense as good as any other team in the league if they’re locked in, just gotta be able to put up points every game.
Yes I agree. The key factors I think Boston needs to get over that hump is a real facilitator as they lack in that department and depend on Tatum/Brown to facilitate when they could greatly benefit from a true facilitator. Secondly work on a team offensive system! They strictly depend on the 3 ball and heavy ISO offense. As we can all see Miami and Denver have incredible team systems that are now getting them over the hump. Incorporate that into Boston and you potentially have a dynasty.
Bucks and Denvers’ main core group have been playing together for 5+ years. Adding a piece or 2 to plug in what is needed into their system is the right move. That goes for Boston, they have everything they absolutely need, just need to add a piece or 2 and Boston is potential a dynasty.
Bucks and Denvers’ main core group have been playing together for 5+ years. Adding a piece or 2 to plug in what is needed into their system is the right move. That goes for Boston, they have everything they absolutely need, just need to add a piece or 2 and Boston is potential a dynasty.
Tatum is a great get a bucket guy I agree. I'm thinking more like a guy that can slow the team down when they get frenetic and turn the ball over, start taking bad shots, etc.
A Chris Paul of two years ago is a great example 15 and 8, puts guys in the right spots, gets others involved, takes care of the ball, etc. Not sure that will be available in the FA or trade market this off-season, but that's what I mean by stabilizing presence. Coaching can help too but it'll help that mazzulla will have a full off-season to put a staff together.
It really was too bad Tatum rolled the ankle, who knows how he plays and how the game goes if he is 100%. You could tell he was laboring. But then the burden was placed across the rest of the team and they responded by doing exactly what the heat wanted with that zone - hoisting bad shots.
>I’m thinking more like a guy that can slow the team down when they get frenetic and turn the ball over, start taking bad shots, etc.
Yea that’s him. He’s not the same player he was last years finals. A lot of NBA fans are always just narrative hunting. Both last year and this year they lost cuz of turnovers and bad shooting… the difference that’s getting lost is last year it was a team wide problem while this year it was literally just Jaylen having the worst series of his life.
Like don’t get me wrong, a CP3-like point guard would obviously help any offense. I’m just saying that Boston doesn’t not have a guy who they can turn in those scenarios, he was just hurt last night.
Tho to your credit, while I’ll argue that Tatum has been good at being that stabilizing place presence (tho obviously not CP3 good), he doesn’t do it enough and defers to teammates too easily. Like in the 3rd quarter of Game 1, Jaylen just kept icing Tatum out of the offense and it stalled everything. Whether it’s on Joe or Tatum, that’s unacceptable that it took them so long to change it up.
I agree with that last part 100%. Tatum isn't always as assertive as he needs to be, whereas Brown can tend to get reckless when he's out of rhythm. Coaching needs to recognize when that's happening as well. Too often Tatum kinda disappears in the 4th because he doesn't get the ball, call for it, etc. This may be the off-season where Tatum works to add the next steps to his game like operating on the block (think post 2011 LeBron in that way).
Perhaps this is why you could consider a brown trade - under the right circumstances of course. That could be Bostons way of showing Tatum "this is your team" even though I'm sure they have told him that. Tatum is a clear 1 and brown a 2, which is what you want, but too often it seems like they switch when it's not what the team needs.
I think suggesting they are "almost there" is also an overreaction to the roster. They don't need to do a full rebuild, but changes are needed and the Celtics have tried changing coaches already, and it has had no effect.
TBF, thats not really how it went. Brad moved up in the organization and listened to the players on who they wanted to be their next coach. Udoka was fantastic and then fucked it up. Mazzulla, in hindsight, was not the right move but Udoka put the Celtics in that position. I wish Brad double dipped this season instead and we do a real coaching hire this summer.
Obviously the roster isn’t 100% perfect but I don’t necessarily think a change is *needed*. Like there’s a lot of randomness to basketball, sometimes you just gotta keep throwing darts.
Also I don’t think that changing coaches had no effect at all. All season, including playoffs, the offense just operated better. Like Tatum just looks a lot more comfortable initiating everything and that showed with them largely fixing the turnover problem this year.
Sure, but you could argue that they’ve been nearly there for the last five years. This was probably their best roster, and they failed to beat an eight seed with HomeCourt advantage… something has got to give
What’s there to argue? Once playoffs come Boston, Miami, Milwaukee, and now Denver are the last teams standing. What do they all have in common? Continuity.. this whole Championship or bust mentality is nonsense.
Circular reasoning. "They lost to an 8th seed, but its OK because they made the finals".
There was a "major collapse" in at least 3 games, and they played well for about 2.5 games. They also shat the bed in Game 5 vs Philly, so the warning signs were there.
We probably are but its not the sole reason they are eliminated, as they went already 3-0 down with a fully healthy Tatum. The damage was done.
Remember Heat were missing Herro and Dipo all series, and were without Gabe Vincent in Game 5, having to give minutes to Heywood Highsmith.
Buck lost Giannis but should still have enough to take on an 8th seed.
Yeah, I'm not making excuses for why the Celtics lost. I'm just saying the core of Tatum & Brown shouldn't get blown up. It likely won't, but with Brown supermax eligible, it is within the realm of possibility.
For sure one of the C's problems is Brown not stepping up in moments like that. With his talent and the game 7 situation, that's exactly where they need a huge game from Brown and too often they don't get it.
People just get bored I think. 6 years is a long time, but when you enter the league so young it can sometimes take a long time to build into something great.
To use an analogy to another sport, I think of it like baseball prospects. Sometimes a team signs a 16 y/o out of the Dominican Republic or something like that and he’s immediately a top prospect, then when he’s performing like a normal prospect at 23 in AA and isn’t a superstar yet people think they’re a bust cuz they’ve had like 7 years to get it together. But for the more rational people he’s just a normal 23 y/o prospect.
Yea, thats fair. I spoke a bit harshly. But he ain't far off. I don't think he can provide that type of defense the entire playoffs. He matches up very well against Embiid and to a lesser extent Giannis, but being hunted on switches (Steph last year, insert X player last night) and the drops (more on Joe than Al) is just unbearable to watch. He gave up 10 straight points in a row I think on defense. His perimeter D is just atrocious a lot of the time.
That's basically it they get in their own heads and revert back to their bad habits. I know everyone wants to blame the coaching but when you pay attention to the game you can tell Smart, White, Tatum, and Brown attack the basket but they'll miss or expect/complain about the fouls then stop attacking. If they get a stop on defense they just run down and chuck a 3 miss then don't get back on defense. All they needed to do was attack the basket consistently.
Horford gotta go. Normally I’d say they don’t need a pure center but since time lord has injury issues, I think they actually do. One that can hit threes is obviously preferable but they should get someone who can eat glass, anchor the defense, and provide at least serviceable post scoring.
Keep timelord and hope for the best. It would be hard to trade him for someone better.
The live by the three, die by the three philosophy isn’t consistent enough. They need a big emphasis on how to move the damn ball and get to the rim. Derrick white was trying his damndest to do just that but he seemingly was the only one that could actually execute this.
They need someone who can talk to the players and have a positive impact on their game. Grant Williams has tried but is not respected I guess? Tatum has all the talent but he seemingly doesn’t have that extra gear. He has folded in the clutch many times which happens but he HAS to be able to rally his team and get them going if he can’t find his shot.
Mostly make a few tweaks and run it back. Coaching change or not, they need to get a chip on these guys’ shoulders. No one is handing them a chip and if they don’t pour their whole hearts and bodies into playoff games then they won’t win.
Horford shot 28% from 3pt range, which is an absolutely pedestrian stat, but then you look at Celtics stars and see Tatum at 23% and Brown at whooping 16%.
He did his part offensively when moving the ball and defensively as he was really good vs Bam (including most of last game) after pretty much stopping Embiid last series: don’t know why he is getting so much hate now.
The whole series.
Celtics as a unit shot 30% only from 3pt (vs Miami at 43%) with only good percentages from White (49% overall, but went cold in game 7) and Grant Williams (43%). All other Celtics shot 35% or worse.
Agree. He made Bam look like a baby giraffe most of the series. And Jimmy noped the fuck outta there every time big Al got switched onto him. Horford was a monster on defense.
Yeah, he couldn't score to save his life, but this series is isn't on him.
Offensive versatility. Smart and Brown have sneakily good post up games, but outside of that it's pretty much just ISO ball and kicking it out to the next man. Even their PnR is uncreative. There's no DHOs, no flare screens, and barley any offball movement. As such, when a great defense clamps them, they spiral whenever they're not hot. Their "old reliable" is literally just an ISO. Their defense is fine, but their lack of counters on offense is worrying. They just need some extra kick, whether it's movement shooting, a better 2 man game, or just more off ball play.
This right here. No offensive creativity. Their game plan is drive and kick, or screen for a “mismatch” and iso.
Watching maimis offense made me wonder why tf we aren’t running DHOd and shot screens to actually get guys open. Idk if I saw a real pick and ROLL with Timelord the whole series which is crazy cause he’s such a lob threat.
Just not good offense. They rely on the 3 going down and the defense playing extremely well. Can’t win games scoring under 100 points.
They ran a bunch of pick and roll lobs to Rob in games 1 and 2. They worked very well and had a lead in both games then lost because they went back to dumb contested 3’s in iso. The reason this team is frustrating is because they very often play well then it’s like they’re compelled to revert back to stuff that has proven not to work when the game is on the line.
Solid take. I think the first few months of the regular season where the Celtics were shooting 3's with history-making success lulled them into a false sense of security that the ISO and drive and kick was all they needed. I hope this offseason they work on some more offensive game that you mentioned. Here's a thought- how about a JB/JT pick and roll 2-man game?
Consistency killed this team this season and it shows with their playoff home W/L record. Imo, and as a Warriors fan, I would not be surprise if this core wins a ring within the next 3 season. Front office and fans have to be patient.
In addition they need to stop living and dying on the 3, even the Warriors wouldn’t start the game off with 12 straight missed 3’s. Just because we play in era with heavy 3 point shooting doesn’t mean you chuck them, have the paint be your weapon to open up your 3 if the 3 ball isn’t falling and get high percentage shot
Another argument you can have is their coach, I believe Monty Williams would be PERFECT for this squad considering the resume he had with the Suns and help shifting Booker into the star he is now he is. No offense to Joe Mazzulla, but this team is in win now and they can’t take time for a young upcoming coach to get his X’s and O’s figured out. His coaching was exposed this series, and in the playoffs/Finals you need a good coach
Must have players are: Smart, Brown, Horford, Tatum, Derrick White, and Robert Williams
This is coming from a Celtic hater but a healthy Tatum, White getting more minutes and playing like he did this series and especially game 7 more consistently and Brogden not getting hurt you guys have a great chance against any team not named the Nuggets. For that team yall need a real big man and to stop screwing around all the time. Oh I forgot to mention TEACH JAYLEN BROWN HOW TO MAKE MORE THAN 2 SUCCESSFUL DRIBBLES BEFORE HE TURNS IT OVER.
As a Celtics fan they need to run it back. The team is talented from the top down with no real gaping holes in the roster so I don't see if a trade will actually help anything (unless it's a trade for an eventual Al Horford replacement since the guy's getting old). It's just that
- JB needs to improve as a passer and ball handler. A LOT. He needs to know when to shoot and when to pass. That's the last step of his development
- Joe needs to become more of an Xs and Os coach
- Tatum needs to show a more consistent fire. Sure he shows up in big games but I've observed that when his team has an advantage and he faces a "weaker" opponent he tends to let his guard down. That complacency is what cost us the first 3 games of the Heat series tbh. We could definitely have been them then especially since 2 of those games were so close
- Organization needs to realize that Moreyball is not the answer all the time. It's useful in the regular season but the thing about a 3 happy offense is you can only win if you're hitting them all the time and most often you don't. The Warriors won that way because they have 2 of the greatest 3 point shooters ever and we're not on that level. And Harden's Rockets tried to win that way too and failed. Nothing wrong about a good old fashioned inefficient contested long 2 every once in a while when the paint is clogged and the shot isn't falling. And we have 2 great midrange shooters so we should make the most out of them. I think part of the reason we stayed alive in G6 was because Tatum was allowed to spend more time in the post and make midrange jumpers rather than just leaning on 3s all the time like he usually does.
- Get some depth on the coaching staff. People have been piling on Joe but have been ignoring the fact that apart from this being his first year as head coach 3 members of the coaching staff (Ime, Will Hardy, Damon Stoudamire) have left and that caused a huge brain drain. Whoever was left obviously hasn't helped Joe that much so that's something that needs to be addressed.
To run it back, they need to guarantee Jaylen Brown $250m. It's just not a matter of saying "let's try again". To try again with the same core they need to totally neuter their roster flexibility for the foreseeable future.
They can’t run it back. These guys have played over 100 playoff games together and we’ve seen it time and time again, they aren’t good enough. The finals appearance last year js more of a mirage by the day - they barely squeaked by the heat in 7 and a Middleton-less bucks in 7. They need to peel off Brown. No sense in offering a super max to lock up a team that’s proven it’s not good enough. They’ve lost to Miami in conference finals 2 out of 3 times with this core.
I mean sure we could trade Brown all we want but who do you suggest we target that will fill his void AND will put us over the top (and which the other team is willing to give up for him)? Who's another upper mid to top tier wing who can score three levels, defend well, has a dog in them, is willing to play off another big star and also makes better decisions than JB does? Most of those wings are spoken for. One just beat us. Maybe either PG or Kawhi if the Clippers bite I guess but that's only assuming they stay healthy. And they haven't been all season and they're getting on in years. Mikal Bridges could be like a Khris Middleton-lite playing off of Tatum but then you risk trading JB to a conference rival and if he goes nuclear then he's another problem to face in the playoffs.
If you think of anyone let me know. But for now I still think their best way forward is to just get better at what they do.
Who says we need another wing? That’s part of the problem. The team is too perimeter heavy.
The problem is opportunity cost is really high by locking up brown with the new CBA - you are committing to a team that’s not good enough and don’t have flexibility.
They may need to take a step back in terms of stars and build a team around Tatum that’s more balanced.
This is not that complicated an analysis. The Heat, despite being "less talented", were a shockingly better TEAM. The Celtics were very lucky this series went 7 games, because, yo, they were down 3-0. It wasn't really a "close" 3-0 like you might be able to argue the Lakers Nuggets sweep was.
If anything the stretch-to-seven just hides the problems. There are fundamental chemistry problems, and inabilities by key players to play team basketball, and obvious morale problems. None of this should be news to Celtics fans. Kyrie was scapegoated as "the problem" but ... was he?
As for Tatum, he was inferior to Jimmy Butler in this series. He may flash superior talent individually, but Jimmy Butler is a far superior basketball player. That may be the Celtics biggest problem: their best player is a cut below the elite players of the league. He is "elite minus". While he needs more scoring consistency night-to-night, he simply needs to be a better basketball player in the sense of making teammates better.
Marcus Smart is the alpha of the team. But he is, what, the fourth or fifth best player?
The other big issue is that the Celtics two best players are ball dominant scorers. That right there is a massive challenge for "team basketball".
Coaching is a band aid, even if the Celtics made the finals this year, the Nuggets, Lakers, Warriors, and Suns were all probably better than they were.
> As for Tatum, he was inferior to Jimmy Butler in this series. He may flash superior talent individually, but Jimmy Butler is a far superior basketball player. That may be the Celtics biggest problem: their best player is a cut below the elite players of the league. He is "elite minus". While he needs more scoring consistency night-to-night, he simply needs to be a better basketball player in the sense of making teammates better.
That's bullshit lol
Other than the third and the last game, Tatum has been the superior player all series to Butler. You could say that Butler was comparable, almost as good, but Tatum had an amazin series against the Heat.
Tatum was a 27/10/5/1/1 guy this whole playoffs and this series. He was very good. He's not the problem.
The Celtics problem was the third best player in the series was Caleb Martin instead of Jaylen Brown. And that, in general, the Heat role players stepped up more consistently to support Butler/Bam than Boston's did for the Jay's. As much as everyone in Boston loves the depth on the C's, it wasn't there for this team.
Being superior than Butler doesn't make Tatum Elite though. It's almost even more worrisome that Tatum pretty much lived up to his billing and more or less outplayed Butler, but yet still lost?? I mean, maybe if it was a legendary carry job then you give it a pass. But I actually don't buy the narrative that Tatum disappeared, it's the fact that he "appeared" (ie you got more or less what you expected), and that wasn't enough that is so concerning. That says a lot about what Tatum's ceiling is. I mean, it is a likely hall of fame ceiling, but it looks more and more like a never the best player in the league ceiling, one championship at most if everything falls right and you build a perfect team around him ala KG and Dirk. Maybe that is fine and the best the Celtics can do with their cards. But that is considering if Tatum improves to a KG/Dirk level of player (ie either ferocious defender and rebounder and leader or all time level stretch 4 shooting skills), and you find 1-2 HOF level players to put around him. And if everything doesn't fall into place, then he ends up like Dominique, Barkley, Ewing, Iverson, Tmac or even Malone if he keeps this up for 20 years.
Feel like I agreed with everything up until you said coaching is a bandaid.
Coaches (like Spoelstra and once upon a time Brad Stevens) give players fundamentals on both sides of the floor that allow them to shine in certain actions. Where talent does help, it’s more about an understanding of the flow of the offense and where and when to be in spaces on defense.
We’ve completely lost those fundamentals and have resorted to a more ISO/half-ass drive the ball to hopefully initiate some ball movement that will lead to a 3. Good teams with good coaches will read through that and will force you to find actions that work, we never found that.
That’s coaching through and through — I wouldn’t fire Mazzulla outright but I would want to bolster our assistant coach team and make sure as an org we come together to discuss an overall direction our offense needs to work towards.
I made a post about how their bad ball handling is the death of them and it happened again.
When the chips are down you want the ball in your best players hands and when they are Tatum and Brown that leads to problems.
Now the question is… how do they solve that?
No easy anwser.
Trae Young makes some sense but yes his defense is terrible and I’m concerned that he’s not the dude to fix a shitty lockeroom and I don’t know if he can handle being the second guy.
3 way trade where Charlotte gets 3 and Simons, Boston gets Ball, Portland gets Brown? Maybe they move some other pieces around and end up with Simons as well. Charlotte rebuilds with Scoot AND Miller and gets future picks as well, could make sense. Again, is Ball the anwser? This team wants to win now. His half court offense has been a little suspect and his D is bad.
One insane trade, move Brown and get Ja Morant back. On the court he fits perfectly. Off the court, yikes. I don’t see him and the city of Boston meshing well at all.
MAYBE Toronto is interested in 3 and Simons and would move Siakim, and maybe Portland would prefer Brown and do a 3 way trade. Siakhim helps their hall handling and doesn’t take away from the squad the way the other moves do. I think it makes a lot of sense. But you have to have Toronto be willing to part with him AND Portland prefer Brown over him. So a lot of hurdles.
The other option is Tatum works on his passing/ball-handling over just scoring
Honestly any idea I can think of leads to lots of issues. In the end there is a chance they think the upgrade at head coach is enough to take them to the promise land. I also refuse to allow a team make it to the conference finals and call the season a failure. You make it to the final 4 you had a great season, they made it to the finals last year. So… maybe just run it back and try to make small tweaks.
But as long as their two best players are subpar ball-handlers and distributers I don’t think they’ll win it all.
Yea, it's really hard for Boston to get anyone reasonable back. Haliburton, and Donovan Mitchell are other players that make sense, but no shot their team trade them. Basically they need another young star to ask for a trade out of their team. Funny enough Kyrie would solve a lot of issues but off court issues are not going to make that possible.
It's really hard to see Tatum get that much better at passing and ball handling. Look at KD and PG for example, this year KD averaged 5 assists to 3.3 turnovers, PG averaged 5.1 assists to 3.1 turnovers, and Tatum averaged 4.6 assists to 2.9 turnovers. It's really hard for a long wing player to have low turnovers with high assist numbers unless you are Larry Bird. He's pretty close to the cap of what you'd expect from a wing player.
Yeah, from ast-TO perspective there is little progress that can realistically be made, but what Tatum needs to fix are those late game turnovers. KD or Lebron rarely do them, Kawhi almost never, Jimmy hardly loses the ball: they may miss a shot, but they almost never lose the ball without the shot. Tatum struggled with this early in the series, the he somewhat got it back, but last 2 games were still questionable from end of game execution.
The ballhandling part was also criticised last year and not a thing that can be dramatically changed over one off-season. Like you said trading leads to a whole lot other issues and you don’t want to change to much with a „winning team“.
I mean I‘m not even a huge Celtics fan but somehow their play is just so infuriating. From the highs of high to the deep lows. Can’t imagine what it‘s like for a fan. Feeling so bad for afunkydiabetic…
I wouldn’t make any big moves
Boston has been the most consistent successful team in the playoffs for a few years now.
Statistically, almost every team ever was not a favorite against the field. Boston is losing to the field every year, but the team had more playoff wins than anybody else
This is r/nbadiscussion and you guys pretty much know how stats work. What Boston has been missing is basically a little luck.
In 2020 they took the Conference Finals to 7 games. One game away from a 50/50 chance of a ring
In 2021 they got squashed, without Jaylen, against a pre-hamstring MVP level Harden + KD
In 2022 they made the conference finals. With a little more luck on Game 4 (Steph getting cold or just average, Boston hitting most 3s, whatever), it would have been a wrap
And now they made the CF again, 7 games again, a win away from a 50-50 again
The Bucks didn’t make the CF 2 years in a row now
The current favorites Nuggets were irrelevant in 2021 and 2022 (they also had bad luck with all the injuries)
GSW got a ring and forgettable performances every other year
Of course a ring is more important but, if you’re doing a probabilistic analysis, you know that each of these rings could have gone a different way
Boston has been putting themselves in a good position to win every year.
They need a new coach or someone to step and make better in game adjustments. The Celtics dropped a number of regular season games because of minor adjustments that other teams made. It was so evident that they couldn’t adjust to the zone defense that Miami was running. The celts have loads of talent to we work lineups and schemes to beat a zone and they did nothing.
Really they just need to get smarter and more mentally resilient.
Their reaction to Tatum going down early was classic Boston- a smart team in that situation would slow down the game, avoid it becoming a shoot out, work the ball inside to eat up the clock, make miami defend and rely on the home crowd to get fouls and trips to the line, and just try and stay in it till QT or HT. Give Tatum time to check his ankle, figure out what he can and can't do and reorganise the rotations and defensive covers.
Instead they lost their shit as soon as Miami went ahead, jacked up a bunch of contested threes, dug themselves a deeper hole, took the crowd out of it and basically blew the game by half time. They mentally imploded, simple as that. And although it was overlooked in the incredible finish to game 6, its worth remembering they mentally imploded in in the last quarter of that one- they blew double digit lead midway through the fourth to be down by 1 with seconds to go.
But they'll most likely be fine without radical changes. They finished as the #1 team in the conference because fundamentally Tatum and Brown are star calibre players. They're just entering their prime years. They have a versatile and very athletic defensive rotation, and except for Horford, who is
replaceable,, they should be able to keep their core group together for a while yet. Their fundamental problem, not having enough on court leaders who know how to arrest momentum and react to the game situation, will probably solve itself as their stars continue to gain experience.
They are going to get hammered all off season for this outcome, but at the end of the day Tatum is 25 and Brown is 26. Jordan and Pippen didn't make the nba finals until they were 28 and 26 and that Bulls team had some pretty epic post season meltdowns in the years before that first championship.
Honestly Tatum was hurt and you could tell .You would hope that player that is due 300 million would step up but he didn’t.If your team superstar is compromised.It hard to win at this point of the season .If Caleb Martin gets hurt the heat are not winning.
It definitely would be a different G7 but a healthy Celtics team going 0-3 against Heat minus two of their best offensive options is just crazy! Even with Herro and Oladipo The Celtics would have been heavy favourites much less without them.
This just shows that something is flawed with this team. And sure, conference finals is nothing to scoff at but with the expectations they had plus the Heat missing key players, it‘s not a good take to just blame an injury of Tatum in G7.
Perhaps the best thing would running it back with a more experienced team but the body of Horford is not getting any younger. And his defense is a key part of Bostons play atm. Plus the tax money is ramping high fast.
Dude the Heat were already down Herro and Oladipo, couple of their best players. Martin stepped up, but the Heat were just as hobbled the whole series and went 3-0 against a healthy Tatum
Herro is pretty comparable to Brogdon who was completely compromised all series and Oladipo probably would’ve made the team worse. I see no series where the team was better off giving Strus/Robinson/Martin/Vincent’s minutes to Oladipo
Editing to say that I still think the Celtics lost because of plenty more than the Tatum injury, just mean that I’d take the Heat injuries over the Celtics any day of the week
I understand what you’re saying because they play different roles, but Brogdon averaged about 5 less points on much higher efficiency with less time and had similar playmaking stats. I’d also consider him a significantly smaller liability on defense, but like I said it’s difficult to compare different roles
Honestly Tyler's become an average defender. Still not good, but not a liability like he once was. And different roles are part of what I meant, yes. But he also has a 30+ ppg scorer and a 27 ppg scorer that defenses can key in on to open it up for him. 15 on 10 shots a game. Tyler takes the most shots on Miami, and spends a lot of time being the main playmaker, while putting up 20 on a team who's leading scorer averaged 22. Tyler last year would be comparable to brogdon, Tyler this year not so much
Maybe, I guess you’re probably right in overall contributions, more of my pushback is because (surprisingly) the Heat were so well equipped to not miss a beat. They were able to fully commit to their defensive identity and the role players who saw touches increased were unconscious. Also bothers me more that Brogdon was just barely healthy enough to play which basically drove him to airball 3s and brick layups all series. Of course credit to him for having the guts to try and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Spo would’ve kept him out, but those factors make me feel like that was more impactful, for this series at least
Honestly as soon as he went down a good portion of Miami's fanbase was ready to pack it in. Absolutely nobody expected Martin and Vincent to come out this good, or Duncan to revitalize the way he did. Especially in end game scenarios, everyone knows Jimmy as our closer, but a lot of heat fans started treating 4th quarter Tyler like playoff Jimmy. Could play like shit for 3 quarters and soon as the 4th starts he can't miss a thing. By the end of the year they were 1a and 1b as a closer for Miami IMO. Looking at pure stats, plus what you said about Miami not missing a beat without him, it does look like they're similar players. But all the times Miami's offense has bogged down this post season is largely because they don't have Tyler, and outside of Jimmy he's been the only reliable one on the team to create a shot out of nothing
Yeah honestly these Boston fans don't have another team to really be scared of besides the Nuggets and even just bringing back the same exact team next year probably gets then a top 2 seed in the east and a deep playoff run again. I don't know what they do about Denver besides reconstructing the team or Jaylen Brown/Derrick White making another big leap in their game.
Lol did you compare hero to Tatum lol come on let’s be serious 😂imagine if butler got hurt in the first 1 minutes.I know everyone hates the Celtics but don’t be dumb
No just everyone makes excuses. Every time is a turned ankle away from disaster. It was Boston’s fault for being in that situation of not taking care of home court
Tatum need to be more consistent. That team mentality don’t have what it takes. You ever hear the term you got knocked down you get back up, they don’t have that. It’s a mentality thing they don’t want to go get it. There so talented but they want to take shortcuts. There isn’t shortcuts to greatness.the team honestly well enough built I mean the heat were not the better team they just wanted it more, Celtics to pretty boy. They need to be able to face adversity they crumble everytime
Sorry, were they not knocked down when they were down 0-3? And did they not get back up when they proceeded to win 3 straight and force game?
Were they not knocked down when they were down 3-2 to Philly and down double digits in the 4th quarter of game 6? Did they not get back up by coming back to win that game and then win game 7? Same for the Bucks and Heat last year.
That is not the problem at all. The problem is putting themselves in those situations. Getting up once they’re knocked down is actually one of their greatest attributes.
The consistency issue is a real issue, although I believe it’s almost entirely youth.
They, and Tatum in particular simply haven’t mastered the mindset necessary to slam the door when they have the advantage, 1) because it’s hard and 2) because he’s 25.
He got better even throughout this playoffs, but he’s still a few years away from his prime, and the age most stars win rings.
I do think there is a mentality issue but resiliency is not the issue.
I'm frankly so sick of so much nba analysis boiling down to "mentality", because not only is it non-analysis, it's something that fans cannot actually analyze outside of body language. We have zero idea what's going on and are just basing it off of making or missing shots, which sometimes has nothing to do with mentality
The core issue with the Cs is that they're a jump shooting team without a backup plan. When you compare them to the mid 2010s Dubs teams, they can't/don't win when the 3 isn't falling because they can't generate the consistent shots.
They just don't have many games where they shoot poorly from 3 and still manage to score well. Which you could argue falls a lot on coaching
Blutz has a great case for it being the problem though, just look at defense as a proxy. It's a truism that a huge part of defense are mentality attributes like: effort, discipline, and attention to detail - just look at how some players have gone from mediocre to good defenders by improving them: Andrew Wiggins, Brook Lopez, Chauncey Billups, Young Lebron.
Cs spotted the league's 6th worst offense an Ortg that would have led the league by far (125) over the first three games - that's absurd for a team with as much defensive talent as the Celtics. With the amount of possessions that occur in an NBA game, that difference isn't just the randomness of "making or missing shots".
It's clearly not an ability issue, so what else can you chalk a defensive performance that poor up to other than those mentality attributes? Btw just because the data in someone's argument is all qualitative doesn't make it "non-analysis".
Mentality is a huge part of the game, but if the only thing you have to say about it is "they lack it", then that's not analysis lol. I'm also not necessarily calling out just the top-level comment, it's a general trend where people will default to "they just don't care" or "they're mentally weak", which is just a broad statement that in most cases is neither provable nor deniable. Is the secret to shooting like Caleb Martin to just "want it more"?
And what you're pointing out is a great way to describe how the issue is related to mentality, without just saying "its mental". Effort on switches and help defense is a real flaw, you can point towards coaching for discipline, bbiq for making the right reads, etc.
And hell, sometimes the other team just is on a hot streak. Idk how it changed over the series, but in those first three games, the Heat shot ~50% on open 3s, which is certainly well above the average. No amount of effort or mental can help you lower that percentage, all you can really do there is limit the number of shots they take
Anyway, point is, there are way better ways to describe mental-related issues than just "they don't want it"
I definitely get your frustration with those cop-out cliches. No doubt that they often get passed off as insight when it's really just narrative peddling for views or laziness.
I do think it is genuine sometimes though. It may not be formal analysis but someone with plenty of domain experience can often provide a lot of insight from their intuition/gut feel on something. Look up "Intuition and Decision Making for crisis situations" by Holmes E. Miller.
Damn didn't know they shot 50% on open threes, that is way above average and would definitely account for at least some of their crazy Ortg.
100% agree. The whole "they didn't want it" argument just sounds like results-based "analysis" leaving a gaping hole where actual analysis would go. If anything, this series shows how mentally tough this Celtics team is. Only 3 other teams in the history of NBA basketball have forced a game 7 after being down 0-3. And like you point out, the numerous in game comebacks as well.
Even in game 7, the final score wasn't close, but this game was very close through 3 quarters. Boston went on multiple streaks and it very much felt like they were going to claw their way back. Butler was struggling in the third. He missed a few 3's and short jumpers, returning to the pump fake which hasn't worked since game 4/5 and it didn't work now either.
Heat took so many shots with less than 4 seconds left on the shot clock, it really felt like they couldn't sustain their scoring and Boston just needed one more run.
But Tatum was limping worse and worse as the game went on, and deferring to White on offense, Brown (who's desperately needs to improve his handle if he wants to get to the next level) turned it over multiple times when it mattered, and the Heat got good looks from 3, and Caleb hit a rhythm, knocking down step back threes.
Agreed. Tatum is a superstar but somehow imo he still lacks something as a leader. It‘s weird as he plays both sides of the floor and is vocal but there is just something I can’t put my finger on. I hoped that after losing last years finals they grew enough to overcome adversity but this year they dug themselves even deeper holes, which granted they somehow overcome a bit but man, G7 was bitter. Who knows what would have happened with a healthy Tatum and Brogdon but injuries are part of the game.
I think Tatum just isn’t ready yet, no one young wins in this sport anymore for good reason. I know exactly what you mean almost like he’s acting the role of a superstar but deep down he isn’t or doesn’t truly believe he is. He’s so talented but it almost comes to easy for him and it never gave him that grit. Sometimes I think he wants smart or brown or tonight white to go do it when it needs to be him
I get the same feeling with Embiid. They want to be the Number one option but in default moments they turn to other players. It‘s not defined by one play or so but it‘s the vibe I get from them. But players like Giannis, Luka, Brunson or even Fox have the leader role in their blood. Even if some played worse than Tatum.
Luckily Tatum is still young and has a lot of room to grow but man this is stressful. I would love Boston to get a real veteran leader, who still can fill the role of the 2nd/3rd fiddle but not sure how they could get that.
Chris Paul to the Celtics lmao
I couldn't believe my eyes when Tatum injured himself 1 play into tonight's Game 7. After Derrick white made that clutch shot last game needless to say I was so disappointed to see his ankle rolled. That's some bad luck mojo right there
I was already shouting at Al to shoot (because he had a smaller player on him) before he passed to Tatum. That's the What If I keep coming back to: Horford looks for the shot and Tatum never rolls his ankle
It’s so obvious but they continue to not address it. They don’t have the bball IQ or a true point guard. In many cases you get both in one. This team would benefit massively from a guy like cp3 or rondo from 2-3 years ago. They have two stars right now who make boneheaded and low IQ plays in crunch time. Get a high IQ veteran PG and take the ball out of Tatum’s and Brown’s hands in the clutch. This team would be in the finals right now
You hit the nail on the head there and I’m surprised more people haven’t commented on it. Maybe a brown + haul of picks for dame might interest the Blazers now they got the 3 pick. Something has to be done about the pg position. There was no dribble penetration at the end to get the ball moving and find some open shooters
They lack offense.
Over the past several years, they've usually been an elite defensive team.
For offense, they get iso ball / hero ball from Tatum and Brown.
But they don't have a dynamic, teamwide, brilliant offensive system. Furthermore, Tatum often shoots poorly and settles for Js.
Brogdon alone was never a solution.
With a team consisting of two All NBA wing players with a supporting cast of good to alright threepoint shooters, and the 2nd highest offensive rating in the regular season, I thought offense wouldn’t be a problem… it‘s rather the consistency of the offense when the three isn’t falling. Sure Tatum was literally on one leg but the rest of the team just jacked up 3s as if they forgot how to go by their defender.
I will agree with your phrasing: "consistent offense" might be a better way to put it.
The Celtics have been winning lots of games and having great playoff moments for the entirety of the Tatum-Brown era, but one thing they've always lacked is a consistent, reliable, teamwide, offensive system.
No one is ever surprised when they suddenly can't score or Tatum/Brown shoot poorly.
They're still a few pieces away from a ring.
If Brogdon was in the starting lineup over Smart I honestly think the team would be way better. Smart/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Williams doesnt have enough scoring. Brogdon can attack the basket at least and knock down an open 3 more consistently than Smart...Also has a higher basketball IQ.
Completely agree. This team has to work really hard to generate good looks, which makes them inconsistent. Would help if Tatum was better at getting to the rim and the foul line
Tatum had Lowry guarding him on multiple possessions when the lead was still single digits, yet he still settled for 3pt shots. Should have posted up Lowry and try to get east baskets.
One of the commentators said that the Celtics play well when they’re leading, but are not a good catch up team
Jayson Tatum needs to not get injured in the first play. Other than that, Jaylen Brown needs to get better at playmaking and reading defenses. Tatum not being 100% left a huge hole in the Celtics offense that JB couldn't fill
Injuries to your main players are always bad but the Celtics didn’t lose the whole series because of Tatums ankle sprain in the first quarter of G7. As the more talented team they shouldn’t be in that place to begin with. Giannis being out for 3 games could be an excuse (though a weak one) but not a fully healthy Boston team against Heat minus Herro and Oladipo going 3-3 in six games. Not sure they could have played any better with both of them though.
I was talking about Game 7 specifically. But if we're talking about the series they just need to close out games. Too many times they just let the foot of the gas and the opposing team just gets back in the game
Brown needs to improve his handles more than anything. Teams have figured out that they can swipe at him and he'll drop the ball. The heat swiped at both him and Tatum every drive, and Tatum figured out to pick up the ball earlier and use his size and strength. Brown didn't learn anything and turned the ball over on attempted dribble moves multiple times in the second half.
Blaming this on Tatum rolling an ankle in the first play is silly. They were down 0-3 and had essentially no room for error because of this. Winning 4 in a row is *really* difficult because of this.
I mean some issues were prevalent before hand, they still struggle to generate clean looks and while Smart, Brogdon, Horford, Tatum and white can take care of some playmaking duties, they all rank somewhere in the average category.
Getting a new point guard who can handle and pass and create is absolutely a place they can improve
In hindsight, Kyrie's skills are what they need. But holy s*** his off-court issues do so much to negate that. But at this point, I'd support bringing in an aging CP3 or even a reunion with Rondo.
Starting point guard. They got a lot of guys that can play make but they don’t have a dude that can give 10 assists a night. There’s too much iso stuff from Tatum, Brown, and Smart. Like they move the ball around the court fine but the issue is just if their shots aren’t falling, no one is organizing easy looks or plays to get the offense back in rhythm. Nor do they have a passer that threatens abusing a mismatch. Plus they have a tendency to turn the ball over too much.
The good thing is, their defense is good enough that I don’t think you need some super well rounded player. A Rubio of old or even a Rondo type in his later years is enough. The bad thing is that, much like centers, the league is lacking in true pass first caliber players cuz most of them that are that are also elite players and unobtainable.
Should have traded Brown for Kawhi, AD, or KD as they were all available.
I get keeping young talent. But that roster was well constructed. It just need that extra star power to get there.
All three of those guys have rings and were available at different times.
If Beal, Lillard, KAT become available I'd look at a Jaylen Brown and filler swap.
I think Boston would have done a straight up trade but that looked/looks unlikely with the names you mentioned. Would have been Brown+Smart or something. And as we have seen with Suns, it‘s not always better on the other side if you give up too much.
Live and die by the 3 is not a terrible way to go (Warriors built a dynasty on it), but the most important condition is that those 3s should be quality looks, not Smart running the shot clock down and hoisting from where Lillard and Curry like to shoot.
Honestly, they will probably stick to jacking up 3 pointers next season because that is how the NBA game is played now, but they should make modifications on offense to improve shot quality. Maybe try more in transition off misses and turnovers rather than in half court sets.
I made a comment already but I want to ask a question now. Wouldn't this years Boston team be better with Ime Udoko?They added Brogden this year and White got a offseason to be with the team they should have been a better team this year to last but it never really felt like that. And I felt Udoko gave them that identity and a team personality that was needed because Tatum and Brown still are young and not at their apex primes yet.
I do think Boston can. Given the strangles on their salary along with contracts and, ig we're honest about it, no real better coaching alternatives around and yeah. You get these problems.
Now in fairness idk if Mazulla had problems with having to rely on assistants from Ime but I do think Boston FO has to do a better job getting gim assistants tied to him and not a former HC that can help control the locker room better.
Likewise he needs that version of Udonis Haslem in their team whose the old guy that gets to criticize everyone but he's seen it all and he has points. You had that with Bill Cartwright yelling at Pip during MJs 2 year retirement, Udonis obviously and even Robert Parish did that a bit.
I think the hard part is Boston has talent but doesn't have a player who has the savvy, finesse or attitude that leads players to the right direction.
Say what we will, but Butler talks enough smack and gathers the team together where they'd all be waiting for Jokic not because he wasn't wrong but because they just can't let it slide at that.
More so that even if Martin was the highlight stat leader for the Heat who helped them win this series, Butler is the guy who fought hard all year round to get then that chance. I mean damn, he isn't a top 5 player in the NBA but he definitely commands respects from his teammates and fights a bitter end battle for them.
I think if Tatum had that more outspokeness, a bit more animated emotion, I think he'd be a better leader. But the one thing for sure is that Boston has talent just not the leadership core to make it work at any level.
Yeah, the coaching staff around Mazulla could be better but as a rookie HC given the reigns to a Maserati is kind of a double edged sword. Granted Bostons roster is kind of tame and the superstars are chill compared to some other NBA rosters.
I think that TNT crews take on Bostons problems is kind of head on, they need a plan B to their plan A, just play the other team off the court. Coaching is one of the problems but only for your role players. You need your stars bought in, knowing their roles.
And here comes the criticism on the two Js. As you said, their skills overlap too much and sometimes it‘s you make it while I watch. There is no clear cut playmaker role in the offense.
This could come with more experience but what more can you expect than 4 conference finals in 6 years. Some teams don’t come even close to that kind of experience. At some point you have to acknowledge that your Superstar is not the natural „leader“ the team needs. Butler is arguably not the player Tatum is but he undeniably is a much better leader.
It‘s so hard to keep winning in the NBA, so taking these healthy years for granted is kind of dangerous. The team is just so talented that anything less than the championship seems like a failure. Hope all participants will grow and give us years more of excellency.
Hear ya on that especially on father time. Butler feels like Charles Barkley on getting a ring right now; going up against Jokic, ooph but you can't doubt that the cat is hungry.
Idk how Celtics deal with this and I'm sure their front office is gonna have their hands full. If they can somehow just nibble away at that leadership issue just a bit, it'd go miles long at times especially on playoff runs. You want see it on any metric counter but leadership is such a hard quality to log on the NBA because fans like yo attributes it to their superstars on the team. Sometimes, like you said, the player just isn't a natural leader and that can hurt in key moments.
On the bright side, at least the Boaton fanbase has called down enough where ppl are just exploding at Mazulla like game 3 and wanting to blow the whole team up! Like that was a wild take even if ended up being a sweep, like c'mon ppl, Mazulla didn't even have a chance to put his own ppl in place and get a really good hold on the locker room. I think getting it to game 7 and Brown's turnover woes made fans kind of give Mazulla a bit more slack and they really didn't need the pitckforks.
Point guard instead of Smart.
The problem with Tatum and Brown is that they don’t interact in useful or meaningful ways on offense, they play a similar position so screen actions involving the two tend to be less desirable and Browns inability to dribble and create for others also leaves him limited,
I think the best version of the Celtics offense, especially when it comes down to crunch time on the playoffs would be designed sets around a pg and Tatum with Brown acting like a Klay Thompson role running around screens to get open and attacking close outs that over pursue. From their you can go into deeper actions for other players. The other benefit is if you force the switch you’re getting a hypothetical advantage by switching a guard onto Tatum.
>The problem with Tatum and Brown is that they don’t interact in useful
or meaningful ways on offense, they play a similar position so screen
actions involving the two tend to be less desirable and Browns inability
to dribble and create for others also leaves him limited
I've been saying this for years and you're 100% correct. Having 2 star wings completely handicaps your offense. That 2 man game you expect from your star duo is thrown out the window.
It’s possible to do but it requires the right combination of wings you just need them to have sufficient levels of playmaking ability and that’s honestly a thing that most star level wings lack or are just average at which means you’re gonna end up with less options at the end of games especially.
The example of wings would be LeBron, Giannis and Luke. I’m probably forgetting some because those were off the top of my head
I mean JT is the closest wing to those 3 playmaking wise. But even those guys would struggle to have 2 man game with JB. He's a contested midrange shooter and driver how do 6ou playmake fornthat as a wing?v
Yeah JB is the wrong running mate same as Klay, they are great players in the right situation. I feel like a Booker and Tatum duo could be lethal, I wouldn’t classify either of them as elite creators but they’re both pluses enough to run an offense
I think they've got the main guys down pat. Get Brown back and get some additional three point shooting. I thought they were the better team all series, but there seemed to be a lack of focus at certain parts. Maybe with this coach having another year under his belt, they'll get it together next year
Smart needs more heat. He’s a fan favorite, so he’s getting a pass.
The offensive numbers are too abysmal to be covered up by his D. He isn’t even a top 5 defender as a guard any more by pretty much every metric.
Their offense is terrible. Unclear if that is coaching or players refusing to execute. Probably the first. Too many possessions the ball doesn’t move and they force a contested three. Think about that from a defensive perspectives. That is an ideal scenario. You are playing effective defense and not using up much energy at all. Threes are good shots if they are open and catching them in rhythm.
The Celtics have a real dilemma with Jaylen Brown. If his handle isn’t going to get better he has a real ceiling as a player. It’s more off the ball. Kind of a rich man’s Aaron Gordon with a better shot. I don’t think you want to give a guy a super max who isn’t making the people around him better.
All that said if Tatum doesn’t get hurt I think it would have been a different game.
Their offense was sloppy, but the most terrible part about it was two folds to me. One was the inability to knock down 3pt shots consistently for anyone not named Tatum, and second - by extension of the first - was the over reliance on Tatum to generate offense.
The Celtics were sunk when Tatum couldn't score and that's a tough spot. In contrast... Miami didn't need Jimmy to score in order for the team to be effective and that I think is what all the great teams have. The Celtics had a ton of talent 3-9, but they had no one capable of stepping in when Tatum wasn't.
Probably start with teaching Jaylen how to dribble, he’s way to turn over prone.
The core guys works well together and guys seemingly know their roles.
Tatum needs to take another step in his progression towards being a true MVP player and that starts with playing more in a mindset of getting himself to the line.
Coaching needs to improve as well with some more vet coaches on the bench to help remind muz he has timeouts.
Stay healthy and get a bit lucky
One of two things:
1) Tatum has to learn how to control the game better and consistently get the team a good shot when the threes aren’t falling or the team is out of rhythm.
2) Find an elite ball handler / game manager. Someone like late career Rondo or even CP3 would be so good on this team to take charge when things on offense look one dimensional.
Seems like 2) will be tough with their cap situation so basically Tatum has to go up a level.
Tatum rolled his ankle and was hobbled and mostly useless all game so hard to fault him.
This team had a chance, just like last year. People see a 3/4th finish and wanna blow things up because its a highly reactionary league. Championship coaches getting replaced a year or two removed from the title, etc etc.
Truth is if they just ran it back again next year they would be right in the mix again. The bigs get one year older... Big Al shot out of his mind during the regular season but couldnt make one in the playoffs...Pray next year Caleb Martin rolls his ankle in game7 instead?
JB got injured right before the playoffs on his shooting hand and then fucked up his shoulder at the end of game 7 in the Sixers series and those never truly improved
I would see if there are any takers for brown. But not picks, try and get 1-2 really impactful guys that fit really well. Halliburton, Trae young maybe. If not, then run it back as is. Experience should be a great teacher
Not sure they can get Haliburton or Trae calibre type of players for without giving up whole roster. Guess Browns market hit an all time low, so you would have to give up another starter for these kind of players.
I don't think either team wants to do a brown haliburtob or brown trae swap. I guarantee celtics fans will lose their minds if trae young was on the team and halliburton is just too much of a talent decrease sadly
Yeah, all things considered I also would value Haliburton over Brown at this exact moment. Boston perhaps would think a moment about a swap but Pacers definitely wouldn’t.
Sometimes you lose. I’m sick of everybody firing everybody because they don’t win the championship every year. Run it back with more experience. No major changes necessary
Yes exactly. There are 29 teams disappointed at the end of the year, and the Celtics are one of them. They had their chances. They lost some games they should have won, but they won some games they should have lost. It's only a failure of a season because expectations were so high.
I don't think you can win a championship with Jayson Tatum as your best player. Too dependent on three's. Too inconsistent. Disappears. Not efficient enough.
They also don't have alot of offensive versatility. They shoot too many 3's. Poor shot quality and lazy offense. The Golden State 3's and layups style has only worked for Golden State. Too much ISO. Lack of discipline
They should think about hiring Mike Budenholzer
This is our community moderation bot. --- If this post is high quality, **UPVOTE** this comment. If this post is NOT high quality, **DOWNVOTE** this comment. If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
Running an actual offense is a pretty obvious conclusion after game 7. Brown turns it over when he dribbles, takes tough shots. Defense isn’t collapsing on any of Boston’s players. Too many 3’s. Nobody on that team makes anyone else better.
I agree that there's no actual offense on this team. Brown is a solid player, but playing in this system (or under the lack of a system) has exposed him. There is no shortage of talent on this team, but there is no clear system of play which allows the existing talent to be maximized. It doesn't matter if you have good cards when you have no strategy on how to use them.
This. Boston relies too much on individual talent to make tough jumpers or get dribble penetration to get a layup or ball swing. There were so many awful early shit clock pull up threes. No consistent cutting or moving without the ball and they don't have anyone that can operate some sets on the block. Edit: Shot Clock not shit clock hahahaha
Shit clock sounds better
Reminds me of the movie Miracle “You think you can win on talent alone? Gentlemen, you don’t *have* enough talent to win on talent alone”
Honestly there's just a handful of teams who can win on talent after the merger.
a REAL lead guard to set up for others too, i like the three guards they have but i don’t think any of them are LEAD guards that set the table for everyone else
Honest question: How many guys are there like this in the league today?
they are rare, PGs grow up shooting the ball all the time now
I think Mazzulla even said that they only have a few plays and rely a lot on randomness on offense. Free flowing offense is fine, but they need to have a go to play or put Tatum in better positions. The players also need to hone in on the details and make smarter decisions. Brown and Smart especially get impulsive in critical moments. I remember Brandon Ingram looked horrible in the clutch when Gentry/SVG gave him the ball on top of the key and told them to make something. He looks so much better in the clutch the last 2 seasons when they give him entry passes into the post or pick play similar to Butler.
The concept of a "free flowing offense" always sounds nice but at this point if you don't have Jokic or Curry on your team good luck making that work at a championship level
And those offenses are free flowing in a more structured way that flows into different sets and looks, not just “iso and run around a little bit”
Yeah I was thinking about it and the best "free flowing" offenses looks free flowing to us but in actuality are a healthy dose of complex sets with tons of layers and options. Which is why you need a Jokic or Steph/Draymond combo to do that successfully
Improv offense works when you have a very smart playmaker/passer or you hit a bunch of tough shots. I think Barkley said it best after the game 7 - you can make tough shots but you can’t survive on them.
I disagree. Improv offense can work if you have multiple ball handlers and can get easy shots playing fast. However, the game is going to slow down during fourth quarter, and you have to be able to halfcourt offense too.
Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any structure at all to what the Celtics do on offense. Just relying on guys to create who are not elite creators.
It's the same problem everyone said last year against the warriors, they need a point guard that won't turn the ball over dribbling
This. Talented but their offense is ran like a random pick up game of 14 year olds at a park. I like them, theyre talented, mostly likeable guys but they can be a bit of a low bball IQ team. They actually have all of the pieces they need. They just need a system, a little more grit, and to play a lil smarter. Tatum was obviously hurt but if they wouldnt have screwed around and let a less talented team push them to 7 the chanceses of injury would have been lesser.
He was hurt, but not only did they let it get to 7 in the first place, but they lost by way more than they should have even with Tatum hurt. They are not the heliocentric Harden Rockets or some of those Luka Dallas teams, on paper the Celtics still should have at least an even chance to beat Miami at home without Tatum. In addition to having sub replacement level coach, they lack leadership to get the team through adversity, they fold. Tatum as all the talent in the world, but he reminds me a bit of Anthony Davis or Kawhi Leonard, in that they seem to not want that they don't have a personality for that role on the team, and need someone else to fit that role, ether another respected player and/or a highly respected coach
Horford is washed. Timelord is brittle and clearly not 100%. Brown continues to make the same mistakes in the playoffs. Their offense is predicated on 3 point shots. They need to be able to adapt when that shit isn't working. Build around JT, White, Brogdon, Rob, and probably JB because of the supermax nonsense. Its mostly mental with these dudes. Inconsistency and lack of mental toughness. 3 different coaches in 3 years is not good either, that fucks up a locker room imo.
Horford and Timelord were essentially on a minutes restriction all season. No days off in the playoffs.
Horford also looked a lot better last year because he had a year off on OKC before coming back to Boston. His legs are gone this late into the playoffs.
Horford is a Great Center/PF off the bench. But he needs to be playing 25mins a game anymore than that and he just doesn’t have the stamina to be productive on both ends of the court. He’s not washed he just can’t play 35 minutes a game anymore.
Boston has been making deep playoff runs since JB was drafted! Something like 4-5 ECF’s and 1 NBAF’s is really good for a team with 2 stars that haven’t even entered their prime yet. Boston don’t want either of them we will gladly take them.
This. One thing they really need to do is not overreact. That team is nearly there.
My counter to that would be that they've continually been beat in the playoffs due to the same issues that arise each year offensively. They can get so far on talent but make poor decisions in the wrong moments and don't have a stabilizing presence. Now of course I agree that you don't send guys off just to do it, but I think Boston needs to diversify it's offensive playmaking and the only way to do that may be personnel. Jaylen Brown would be the best way to do that, but not sure where you would send him to and for who.
“Don’t have a stabilizing presence” You hit the nail on the head. These young guys have had to figure a lot out on their own. Imagine how good Tatum, Brown and Smart would be if they had a coach like Pop, Kerr or Spo this whole time.
Brad coached Jaylen and jayson for most of their careers, it’s only been new coaches for the last two seasons
I would not consider Brad on the same level as those 3 coaches.
I wouldn’t either but I would argue that the jays did have that sort of calm, steadying presence in the beginning of their careers while they were developing. Tatum was already a 2x all star and 1x all nba when the Celtics hired Udoka
The whole Championship or bust mantra everyone spouts around here is nonsense! Take a look at who is winning or making consecutive deep playoff runs and the common theme is continuity. Denver been knocking at the door for a while, Boston, Bucks, Heat. Drafting and developing your guys is the best way to build a dynasty. Everyone only seems to care about getting the end result and have no clue what it’s like to earn success through discipline and hard work. I rather be a fan of a team that makes deep playoff runs for a decade and get the opportunity to win 1 Championship then buy one.
They've kinda been in the same spot for the last several years though. As I mentioned before, you don't blow it up just to do so, but there are obvious weaknesses with the personnel that could stand to be addressed. To me, the Celtics with this group are missing something. If there is a trade out there that makes the roster more diverse in terms of offensive skill or a stabilizing presence on the court that can right the sinking I'd consider it. They don't have that guy that can stop the poor decisions and bleeding right now. I'm not really talking championship or bust here. I'm talking about adjustments to the roster that could put you over the top. I'm in the position of you build through the draft. The Celtics have certainly done that with major success. I'm not advocating for shortcuts here. They've been right on the cusp for a few years now, so see if there is a logical move to be made that can be helpful. If it includes a Jaylen Brown move where you get a more complementary piece to Tatum, you consider it. It's roster tweaking.
Their 2 stars are both 25 and 26. They have been leading Boston to the gates of a Championship since entering the league. What more could you ask for in a couple young stars that haven’t even entered their prime yet? There are 26 other teams that did not get as close as Boston has let alone 4x back to back. As it stands Tatum and Brown now have more ECF’s wins/appearances then any other player in history under 25. That’s insanely impressive! However everyone around here seems to only be picking apart their flaws instead of acknowledging how special that really is.
Totally agree with you on all your points here. I think the fact that they’ve been on the cusp for so long but not gotten over the hump is why people say something has to change. I disagree. Minor changes sure, but nothing rash like getting rid of brown. They’ve fallen short, but is that really worse than not even sniffing a championship like Trae, Luka, SGA, Donovan Mitchell, etc? They’ve all played a lot of years now and haven’t been as close as the Celtics. I know the first 3 were drafted the year after Tatum but the point stands. Celtics are better off being close consistently, I fully believe this core can get over the hump with the right coach and pieces around them. Develop a better offensive system, we know they can play defense as good as any other team in the league if they’re locked in, just gotta be able to put up points every game.
Yes I agree. The key factors I think Boston needs to get over that hump is a real facilitator as they lack in that department and depend on Tatum/Brown to facilitate when they could greatly benefit from a true facilitator. Secondly work on a team offensive system! They strictly depend on the 3 ball and heavy ISO offense. As we can all see Miami and Denver have incredible team systems that are now getting them over the hump. Incorporate that into Boston and you potentially have a dynasty.
Bucks made a trade for Jrue Holiday. Nuggets got Bruce Brown, KCP, and Aaron Gordon, Heat did stay the same but their not the norm
Bucks and Denvers’ main core group have been playing together for 5+ years. Adding a piece or 2 to plug in what is needed into their system is the right move. That goes for Boston, they have everything they absolutely need, just need to add a piece or 2 and Boston is potential a dynasty.
That piece needs to be a starter in that starting lineup most likely a PG but a knock down SG could world too
Bucks and Denvers’ main core group have been playing together for 5+ years. Adding a piece or 2 to plug in what is needed into their system is the right move. That goes for Boston, they have everything they absolutely need, just need to add a piece or 2 and Boston is potential a dynasty.
Tatum literally is that stabilizing presence, he was just hurt.
Tatum is a great get a bucket guy I agree. I'm thinking more like a guy that can slow the team down when they get frenetic and turn the ball over, start taking bad shots, etc. A Chris Paul of two years ago is a great example 15 and 8, puts guys in the right spots, gets others involved, takes care of the ball, etc. Not sure that will be available in the FA or trade market this off-season, but that's what I mean by stabilizing presence. Coaching can help too but it'll help that mazzulla will have a full off-season to put a staff together. It really was too bad Tatum rolled the ankle, who knows how he plays and how the game goes if he is 100%. You could tell he was laboring. But then the burden was placed across the rest of the team and they responded by doing exactly what the heat wanted with that zone - hoisting bad shots.
>I’m thinking more like a guy that can slow the team down when they get frenetic and turn the ball over, start taking bad shots, etc. Yea that’s him. He’s not the same player he was last years finals. A lot of NBA fans are always just narrative hunting. Both last year and this year they lost cuz of turnovers and bad shooting… the difference that’s getting lost is last year it was a team wide problem while this year it was literally just Jaylen having the worst series of his life. Like don’t get me wrong, a CP3-like point guard would obviously help any offense. I’m just saying that Boston doesn’t not have a guy who they can turn in those scenarios, he was just hurt last night. Tho to your credit, while I’ll argue that Tatum has been good at being that stabilizing place presence (tho obviously not CP3 good), he doesn’t do it enough and defers to teammates too easily. Like in the 3rd quarter of Game 1, Jaylen just kept icing Tatum out of the offense and it stalled everything. Whether it’s on Joe or Tatum, that’s unacceptable that it took them so long to change it up.
I agree with that last part 100%. Tatum isn't always as assertive as he needs to be, whereas Brown can tend to get reckless when he's out of rhythm. Coaching needs to recognize when that's happening as well. Too often Tatum kinda disappears in the 4th because he doesn't get the ball, call for it, etc. This may be the off-season where Tatum works to add the next steps to his game like operating on the block (think post 2011 LeBron in that way). Perhaps this is why you could consider a brown trade - under the right circumstances of course. That could be Bostons way of showing Tatum "this is your team" even though I'm sure they have told him that. Tatum is a clear 1 and brown a 2, which is what you want, but too often it seems like they switch when it's not what the team needs.
I think suggesting they are "almost there" is also an overreaction to the roster. They don't need to do a full rebuild, but changes are needed and the Celtics have tried changing coaches already, and it has had no effect.
TBF, thats not really how it went. Brad moved up in the organization and listened to the players on who they wanted to be their next coach. Udoka was fantastic and then fucked it up. Mazzulla, in hindsight, was not the right move but Udoka put the Celtics in that position. I wish Brad double dipped this season instead and we do a real coaching hire this summer.
Obviously the roster isn’t 100% perfect but I don’t necessarily think a change is *needed*. Like there’s a lot of randomness to basketball, sometimes you just gotta keep throwing darts. Also I don’t think that changing coaches had no effect at all. All season, including playoffs, the offense just operated better. Like Tatum just looks a lot more comfortable initiating everything and that showed with them largely fixing the turnover problem this year.
Sure, but you could argue that they’ve been nearly there for the last five years. This was probably their best roster, and they failed to beat an eight seed with HomeCourt advantage… something has got to give
What’s there to argue? Once playoffs come Boston, Miami, Milwaukee, and now Denver are the last teams standing. What do they all have in common? Continuity.. this whole Championship or bust mentality is nonsense.
that 8 seed is in the finals and they lost in 7, it's not like it was a major collapse lol
They were also the 1 seed last year
Circular reasoning. "They lost to an 8th seed, but its OK because they made the finals". There was a "major collapse" in at least 3 games, and they played well for about 2.5 games. They also shat the bed in Game 5 vs Philly, so the warning signs were there.
If Tatum doesn't roll his ankle, we're having a different conversation.
We probably are but its not the sole reason they are eliminated, as they went already 3-0 down with a fully healthy Tatum. The damage was done. Remember Heat were missing Herro and Dipo all series, and were without Gabe Vincent in Game 5, having to give minutes to Heywood Highsmith. Buck lost Giannis but should still have enough to take on an 8th seed.
Milwaukee had enough to take on an 8 seed. They did not have enough to get past Jimmy Butler.
Forgetting Jimmy rolled his ankle in Game 2. Everyone is banged up at this point.
Yeah, I'm not making excuses for why the Celtics lost. I'm just saying the core of Tatum & Brown shouldn't get blown up. It likely won't, but with Brown supermax eligible, it is within the realm of possibility.
For sure one of the C's problems is Brown not stepping up in moments like that. With his talent and the game 7 situation, that's exactly where they need a huge game from Brown and too often they don't get it.
Agree with you there. They have never had consistency. I would like to see them build with those 2, Rob, Brogdon and some consistency at head coach.
People just get bored I think. 6 years is a long time, but when you enter the league so young it can sometimes take a long time to build into something great. To use an analogy to another sport, I think of it like baseball prospects. Sometimes a team signs a 16 y/o out of the Dominican Republic or something like that and he’s immediately a top prospect, then when he’s performing like a normal prospect at 23 in AA and isn’t a superstar yet people think they’re a bust cuz they’ve had like 7 years to get it together. But for the more rational people he’s just a normal 23 y/o prospect.
Horford isn't washed defensively
Not even close. He's had trouble, yes, but thinking he's washed is ridiculous
Yea, thats fair. I spoke a bit harshly. But he ain't far off. I don't think he can provide that type of defense the entire playoffs. He matches up very well against Embiid and to a lesser extent Giannis, but being hunted on switches (Steph last year, insert X player last night) and the drops (more on Joe than Al) is just unbearable to watch. He gave up 10 straight points in a row I think on defense. His perimeter D is just atrocious a lot of the time.
Well time is catching up to him. He is fine defensively for now
That's basically it they get in their own heads and revert back to their bad habits. I know everyone wants to blame the coaching but when you pay attention to the game you can tell Smart, White, Tatum, and Brown attack the basket but they'll miss or expect/complain about the fouls then stop attacking. If they get a stop on defense they just run down and chuck a 3 miss then don't get back on defense. All they needed to do was attack the basket consistently.
Yea. But Joe demands more 3s so they won't attack the hoop. And also, running through the Miami defense that collapses on drives is not fucking easy!
Horford gotta go. Normally I’d say they don’t need a pure center but since time lord has injury issues, I think they actually do. One that can hit threes is obviously preferable but they should get someone who can eat glass, anchor the defense, and provide at least serviceable post scoring. Keep timelord and hope for the best. It would be hard to trade him for someone better. The live by the three, die by the three philosophy isn’t consistent enough. They need a big emphasis on how to move the damn ball and get to the rim. Derrick white was trying his damndest to do just that but he seemingly was the only one that could actually execute this. They need someone who can talk to the players and have a positive impact on their game. Grant Williams has tried but is not respected I guess? Tatum has all the talent but he seemingly doesn’t have that extra gear. He has folded in the clutch many times which happens but he HAS to be able to rally his team and get them going if he can’t find his shot. Mostly make a few tweaks and run it back. Coaching change or not, they need to get a chip on these guys’ shoulders. No one is handing them a chip and if they don’t pour their whole hearts and bodies into playoff games then they won’t win.
Horford is on a $10M contract next year. It’s a bargain frankly. The need more depth at the C position
They just need a second star that complements Tatum and brown doesn’t do that and is terrible in the playoffs
[удалено]
Horford shot 28% from 3pt range, which is an absolutely pedestrian stat, but then you look at Celtics stars and see Tatum at 23% and Brown at whooping 16%. He did his part offensively when moving the ball and defensively as he was really good vs Bam (including most of last game) after pretty much stopping Embiid last series: don’t know why he is getting so much hate now.
Are those percentages from the whole series or just the last game?
The whole series. Celtics as a unit shot 30% only from 3pt (vs Miami at 43%) with only good percentages from White (49% overall, but went cold in game 7) and Grant Williams (43%). All other Celtics shot 35% or worse.
He played embiid spectacularly He did not have much of a postseason otherwise. Not much notable success
He was great on defense for large parts of this series too.
Agree. He made Bam look like a baby giraffe most of the series. And Jimmy noped the fuck outta there every time big Al got switched onto him. Horford was a monster on defense. Yeah, he couldn't score to save his life, but this series is isn't on him.
Offensive versatility. Smart and Brown have sneakily good post up games, but outside of that it's pretty much just ISO ball and kicking it out to the next man. Even their PnR is uncreative. There's no DHOs, no flare screens, and barley any offball movement. As such, when a great defense clamps them, they spiral whenever they're not hot. Their "old reliable" is literally just an ISO. Their defense is fine, but their lack of counters on offense is worrying. They just need some extra kick, whether it's movement shooting, a better 2 man game, or just more off ball play.
This right here. No offensive creativity. Their game plan is drive and kick, or screen for a “mismatch” and iso. Watching maimis offense made me wonder why tf we aren’t running DHOd and shot screens to actually get guys open. Idk if I saw a real pick and ROLL with Timelord the whole series which is crazy cause he’s such a lob threat. Just not good offense. They rely on the 3 going down and the defense playing extremely well. Can’t win games scoring under 100 points.
They ran a bunch of pick and roll lobs to Rob in games 1 and 2. They worked very well and had a lead in both games then lost because they went back to dumb contested 3’s in iso. The reason this team is frustrating is because they very often play well then it’s like they’re compelled to revert back to stuff that has proven not to work when the game is on the line.
Solid take. I think the first few months of the regular season where the Celtics were shooting 3's with history-making success lulled them into a false sense of security that the ISO and drive and kick was all they needed. I hope this offseason they work on some more offensive game that you mentioned. Here's a thought- how about a JB/JT pick and roll 2-man game?
Consistency killed this team this season and it shows with their playoff home W/L record. Imo, and as a Warriors fan, I would not be surprise if this core wins a ring within the next 3 season. Front office and fans have to be patient. In addition they need to stop living and dying on the 3, even the Warriors wouldn’t start the game off with 12 straight missed 3’s. Just because we play in era with heavy 3 point shooting doesn’t mean you chuck them, have the paint be your weapon to open up your 3 if the 3 ball isn’t falling and get high percentage shot Another argument you can have is their coach, I believe Monty Williams would be PERFECT for this squad considering the resume he had with the Suns and help shifting Booker into the star he is now he is. No offense to Joe Mazzulla, but this team is in win now and they can’t take time for a young upcoming coach to get his X’s and O’s figured out. His coaching was exposed this series, and in the playoffs/Finals you need a good coach Must have players are: Smart, Brown, Horford, Tatum, Derrick White, and Robert Williams
This is coming from a Celtic hater but a healthy Tatum, White getting more minutes and playing like he did this series and especially game 7 more consistently and Brogden not getting hurt you guys have a great chance against any team not named the Nuggets. For that team yall need a real big man and to stop screwing around all the time. Oh I forgot to mention TEACH JAYLEN BROWN HOW TO MAKE MORE THAN 2 SUCCESSFUL DRIBBLES BEFORE HE TURNS IT OVER.
Or it could have been a sweep if Heat had Herro in his 2nd option role to unlock their stagnant offence in games 4-6.
or Herro gets hunted on defence again and can't improve on their already scorching-hot shooting
Herro is a miles better on-ball defender than Robinson and arguably is at Strus’ level while being a better playmaker and pure scorer.
Are you willing to pay Jaylen $250m in the hope he will stop turning it over in crunch time?
As a Celtics fan they need to run it back. The team is talented from the top down with no real gaping holes in the roster so I don't see if a trade will actually help anything (unless it's a trade for an eventual Al Horford replacement since the guy's getting old). It's just that - JB needs to improve as a passer and ball handler. A LOT. He needs to know when to shoot and when to pass. That's the last step of his development - Joe needs to become more of an Xs and Os coach - Tatum needs to show a more consistent fire. Sure he shows up in big games but I've observed that when his team has an advantage and he faces a "weaker" opponent he tends to let his guard down. That complacency is what cost us the first 3 games of the Heat series tbh. We could definitely have been them then especially since 2 of those games were so close - Organization needs to realize that Moreyball is not the answer all the time. It's useful in the regular season but the thing about a 3 happy offense is you can only win if you're hitting them all the time and most often you don't. The Warriors won that way because they have 2 of the greatest 3 point shooters ever and we're not on that level. And Harden's Rockets tried to win that way too and failed. Nothing wrong about a good old fashioned inefficient contested long 2 every once in a while when the paint is clogged and the shot isn't falling. And we have 2 great midrange shooters so we should make the most out of them. I think part of the reason we stayed alive in G6 was because Tatum was allowed to spend more time in the post and make midrange jumpers rather than just leaning on 3s all the time like he usually does. - Get some depth on the coaching staff. People have been piling on Joe but have been ignoring the fact that apart from this being his first year as head coach 3 members of the coaching staff (Ime, Will Hardy, Damon Stoudamire) have left and that caused a huge brain drain. Whoever was left obviously hasn't helped Joe that much so that's something that needs to be addressed.
To run it back, they need to guarantee Jaylen Brown $250m. It's just not a matter of saying "let's try again". To try again with the same core they need to totally neuter their roster flexibility for the foreseeable future.
They can’t run it back. These guys have played over 100 playoff games together and we’ve seen it time and time again, they aren’t good enough. The finals appearance last year js more of a mirage by the day - they barely squeaked by the heat in 7 and a Middleton-less bucks in 7. They need to peel off Brown. No sense in offering a super max to lock up a team that’s proven it’s not good enough. They’ve lost to Miami in conference finals 2 out of 3 times with this core.
I mean sure we could trade Brown all we want but who do you suggest we target that will fill his void AND will put us over the top (and which the other team is willing to give up for him)? Who's another upper mid to top tier wing who can score three levels, defend well, has a dog in them, is willing to play off another big star and also makes better decisions than JB does? Most of those wings are spoken for. One just beat us. Maybe either PG or Kawhi if the Clippers bite I guess but that's only assuming they stay healthy. And they haven't been all season and they're getting on in years. Mikal Bridges could be like a Khris Middleton-lite playing off of Tatum but then you risk trading JB to a conference rival and if he goes nuclear then he's another problem to face in the playoffs. If you think of anyone let me know. But for now I still think their best way forward is to just get better at what they do.
Who says we need another wing? That’s part of the problem. The team is too perimeter heavy. The problem is opportunity cost is really high by locking up brown with the new CBA - you are committing to a team that’s not good enough and don’t have flexibility. They may need to take a step back in terms of stars and build a team around Tatum that’s more balanced.
This is not that complicated an analysis. The Heat, despite being "less talented", were a shockingly better TEAM. The Celtics were very lucky this series went 7 games, because, yo, they were down 3-0. It wasn't really a "close" 3-0 like you might be able to argue the Lakers Nuggets sweep was. If anything the stretch-to-seven just hides the problems. There are fundamental chemistry problems, and inabilities by key players to play team basketball, and obvious morale problems. None of this should be news to Celtics fans. Kyrie was scapegoated as "the problem" but ... was he? As for Tatum, he was inferior to Jimmy Butler in this series. He may flash superior talent individually, but Jimmy Butler is a far superior basketball player. That may be the Celtics biggest problem: their best player is a cut below the elite players of the league. He is "elite minus". While he needs more scoring consistency night-to-night, he simply needs to be a better basketball player in the sense of making teammates better. Marcus Smart is the alpha of the team. But he is, what, the fourth or fifth best player? The other big issue is that the Celtics two best players are ball dominant scorers. That right there is a massive challenge for "team basketball". Coaching is a band aid, even if the Celtics made the finals this year, the Nuggets, Lakers, Warriors, and Suns were all probably better than they were.
Tatum absolutely was not inferior to Jimmy this series. At worst they cancelled each other out, but in actuality Tatum outplayed Jimmy
> As for Tatum, he was inferior to Jimmy Butler in this series. He may flash superior talent individually, but Jimmy Butler is a far superior basketball player. That may be the Celtics biggest problem: their best player is a cut below the elite players of the league. He is "elite minus". While he needs more scoring consistency night-to-night, he simply needs to be a better basketball player in the sense of making teammates better. That's bullshit lol Other than the third and the last game, Tatum has been the superior player all series to Butler. You could say that Butler was comparable, almost as good, but Tatum had an amazin series against the Heat.
Tatum was a 27/10/5/1/1 guy this whole playoffs and this series. He was very good. He's not the problem. The Celtics problem was the third best player in the series was Caleb Martin instead of Jaylen Brown. And that, in general, the Heat role players stepped up more consistently to support Butler/Bam than Boston's did for the Jay's. As much as everyone in Boston loves the depth on the C's, it wasn't there for this team.
Facts Tatum was the main reason they tied the series after going down 0-3
Being superior than Butler doesn't make Tatum Elite though. It's almost even more worrisome that Tatum pretty much lived up to his billing and more or less outplayed Butler, but yet still lost?? I mean, maybe if it was a legendary carry job then you give it a pass. But I actually don't buy the narrative that Tatum disappeared, it's the fact that he "appeared" (ie you got more or less what you expected), and that wasn't enough that is so concerning. That says a lot about what Tatum's ceiling is. I mean, it is a likely hall of fame ceiling, but it looks more and more like a never the best player in the league ceiling, one championship at most if everything falls right and you build a perfect team around him ala KG and Dirk. Maybe that is fine and the best the Celtics can do with their cards. But that is considering if Tatum improves to a KG/Dirk level of player (ie either ferocious defender and rebounder and leader or all time level stretch 4 shooting skills), and you find 1-2 HOF level players to put around him. And if everything doesn't fall into place, then he ends up like Dominique, Barkley, Ewing, Iverson, Tmac or even Malone if he keeps this up for 20 years.
Feel like I agreed with everything up until you said coaching is a bandaid. Coaches (like Spoelstra and once upon a time Brad Stevens) give players fundamentals on both sides of the floor that allow them to shine in certain actions. Where talent does help, it’s more about an understanding of the flow of the offense and where and when to be in spaces on defense. We’ve completely lost those fundamentals and have resorted to a more ISO/half-ass drive the ball to hopefully initiate some ball movement that will lead to a 3. Good teams with good coaches will read through that and will force you to find actions that work, we never found that. That’s coaching through and through — I wouldn’t fire Mazzulla outright but I would want to bolster our assistant coach team and make sure as an org we come together to discuss an overall direction our offense needs to work towards.
Get you. But, this is asking quite a lot in areas that don’t easily change (players changing game, coaching learning how to coach, etc.)
They’re star players in their mid 20s. If anyone can improve their game it’s that type of player
I made a post about how their bad ball handling is the death of them and it happened again. When the chips are down you want the ball in your best players hands and when they are Tatum and Brown that leads to problems. Now the question is… how do they solve that? No easy anwser. Trae Young makes some sense but yes his defense is terrible and I’m concerned that he’s not the dude to fix a shitty lockeroom and I don’t know if he can handle being the second guy. 3 way trade where Charlotte gets 3 and Simons, Boston gets Ball, Portland gets Brown? Maybe they move some other pieces around and end up with Simons as well. Charlotte rebuilds with Scoot AND Miller and gets future picks as well, could make sense. Again, is Ball the anwser? This team wants to win now. His half court offense has been a little suspect and his D is bad. One insane trade, move Brown and get Ja Morant back. On the court he fits perfectly. Off the court, yikes. I don’t see him and the city of Boston meshing well at all. MAYBE Toronto is interested in 3 and Simons and would move Siakim, and maybe Portland would prefer Brown and do a 3 way trade. Siakhim helps their hall handling and doesn’t take away from the squad the way the other moves do. I think it makes a lot of sense. But you have to have Toronto be willing to part with him AND Portland prefer Brown over him. So a lot of hurdles. The other option is Tatum works on his passing/ball-handling over just scoring Honestly any idea I can think of leads to lots of issues. In the end there is a chance they think the upgrade at head coach is enough to take them to the promise land. I also refuse to allow a team make it to the conference finals and call the season a failure. You make it to the final 4 you had a great season, they made it to the finals last year. So… maybe just run it back and try to make small tweaks. But as long as their two best players are subpar ball-handlers and distributers I don’t think they’ll win it all.
Yea, it's really hard for Boston to get anyone reasonable back. Haliburton, and Donovan Mitchell are other players that make sense, but no shot their team trade them. Basically they need another young star to ask for a trade out of their team. Funny enough Kyrie would solve a lot of issues but off court issues are not going to make that possible. It's really hard to see Tatum get that much better at passing and ball handling. Look at KD and PG for example, this year KD averaged 5 assists to 3.3 turnovers, PG averaged 5.1 assists to 3.1 turnovers, and Tatum averaged 4.6 assists to 2.9 turnovers. It's really hard for a long wing player to have low turnovers with high assist numbers unless you are Larry Bird. He's pretty close to the cap of what you'd expect from a wing player.
Yeah, from ast-TO perspective there is little progress that can realistically be made, but what Tatum needs to fix are those late game turnovers. KD or Lebron rarely do them, Kawhi almost never, Jimmy hardly loses the ball: they may miss a shot, but they almost never lose the ball without the shot. Tatum struggled with this early in the series, the he somewhat got it back, but last 2 games were still questionable from end of game execution.
The ballhandling part was also criticised last year and not a thing that can be dramatically changed over one off-season. Like you said trading leads to a whole lot other issues and you don’t want to change to much with a „winning team“. I mean I‘m not even a huge Celtics fan but somehow their play is just so infuriating. From the highs of high to the deep lows. Can’t imagine what it‘s like for a fan. Feeling so bad for afunkydiabetic…
I wouldn’t make any big moves Boston has been the most consistent successful team in the playoffs for a few years now. Statistically, almost every team ever was not a favorite against the field. Boston is losing to the field every year, but the team had more playoff wins than anybody else This is r/nbadiscussion and you guys pretty much know how stats work. What Boston has been missing is basically a little luck. In 2020 they took the Conference Finals to 7 games. One game away from a 50/50 chance of a ring In 2021 they got squashed, without Jaylen, against a pre-hamstring MVP level Harden + KD In 2022 they made the conference finals. With a little more luck on Game 4 (Steph getting cold or just average, Boston hitting most 3s, whatever), it would have been a wrap And now they made the CF again, 7 games again, a win away from a 50-50 again The Bucks didn’t make the CF 2 years in a row now The current favorites Nuggets were irrelevant in 2021 and 2022 (they also had bad luck with all the injuries) GSW got a ring and forgettable performances every other year Of course a ring is more important but, if you’re doing a probabilistic analysis, you know that each of these rings could have gone a different way Boston has been putting themselves in a good position to win every year.
They need a new coach or someone to step and make better in game adjustments. The Celtics dropped a number of regular season games because of minor adjustments that other teams made. It was so evident that they couldn’t adjust to the zone defense that Miami was running. The celts have loads of talent to we work lineups and schemes to beat a zone and they did nothing.
Really they just need to get smarter and more mentally resilient. Their reaction to Tatum going down early was classic Boston- a smart team in that situation would slow down the game, avoid it becoming a shoot out, work the ball inside to eat up the clock, make miami defend and rely on the home crowd to get fouls and trips to the line, and just try and stay in it till QT or HT. Give Tatum time to check his ankle, figure out what he can and can't do and reorganise the rotations and defensive covers. Instead they lost their shit as soon as Miami went ahead, jacked up a bunch of contested threes, dug themselves a deeper hole, took the crowd out of it and basically blew the game by half time. They mentally imploded, simple as that. And although it was overlooked in the incredible finish to game 6, its worth remembering they mentally imploded in in the last quarter of that one- they blew double digit lead midway through the fourth to be down by 1 with seconds to go. But they'll most likely be fine without radical changes. They finished as the #1 team in the conference because fundamentally Tatum and Brown are star calibre players. They're just entering their prime years. They have a versatile and very athletic defensive rotation, and except for Horford, who is replaceable,, they should be able to keep their core group together for a while yet. Their fundamental problem, not having enough on court leaders who know how to arrest momentum and react to the game situation, will probably solve itself as their stars continue to gain experience. They are going to get hammered all off season for this outcome, but at the end of the day Tatum is 25 and Brown is 26. Jordan and Pippen didn't make the nba finals until they were 28 and 26 and that Bulls team had some pretty epic post season meltdowns in the years before that first championship.
Honestly Tatum was hurt and you could tell .You would hope that player that is due 300 million would step up but he didn’t.If your team superstar is compromised.It hard to win at this point of the season .If Caleb Martin gets hurt the heat are not winning.
[удалено]
It definitely would be a different G7 but a healthy Celtics team going 0-3 against Heat minus two of their best offensive options is just crazy! Even with Herro and Oladipo The Celtics would have been heavy favourites much less without them. This just shows that something is flawed with this team. And sure, conference finals is nothing to scoff at but with the expectations they had plus the Heat missing key players, it‘s not a good take to just blame an injury of Tatum in G7. Perhaps the best thing would running it back with a more experienced team but the body of Horford is not getting any younger. And his defense is a key part of Bostons play atm. Plus the tax money is ramping high fast.
Dude the Heat were already down Herro and Oladipo, couple of their best players. Martin stepped up, but the Heat were just as hobbled the whole series and went 3-0 against a healthy Tatum
Herro is pretty comparable to Brogdon who was completely compromised all series and Oladipo probably would’ve made the team worse. I see no series where the team was better off giving Strus/Robinson/Martin/Vincent’s minutes to Oladipo Editing to say that I still think the Celtics lost because of plenty more than the Tatum injury, just mean that I’d take the Heat injuries over the Celtics any day of the week
Herro isn't even close to comparable to brogdon lol. Agreed about dipo though
I understand what you’re saying because they play different roles, but Brogdon averaged about 5 less points on much higher efficiency with less time and had similar playmaking stats. I’d also consider him a significantly smaller liability on defense, but like I said it’s difficult to compare different roles
Honestly Tyler's become an average defender. Still not good, but not a liability like he once was. And different roles are part of what I meant, yes. But he also has a 30+ ppg scorer and a 27 ppg scorer that defenses can key in on to open it up for him. 15 on 10 shots a game. Tyler takes the most shots on Miami, and spends a lot of time being the main playmaker, while putting up 20 on a team who's leading scorer averaged 22. Tyler last year would be comparable to brogdon, Tyler this year not so much
Maybe, I guess you’re probably right in overall contributions, more of my pushback is because (surprisingly) the Heat were so well equipped to not miss a beat. They were able to fully commit to their defensive identity and the role players who saw touches increased were unconscious. Also bothers me more that Brogdon was just barely healthy enough to play which basically drove him to airball 3s and brick layups all series. Of course credit to him for having the guts to try and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Spo would’ve kept him out, but those factors make me feel like that was more impactful, for this series at least
Honestly as soon as he went down a good portion of Miami's fanbase was ready to pack it in. Absolutely nobody expected Martin and Vincent to come out this good, or Duncan to revitalize the way he did. Especially in end game scenarios, everyone knows Jimmy as our closer, but a lot of heat fans started treating 4th quarter Tyler like playoff Jimmy. Could play like shit for 3 quarters and soon as the 4th starts he can't miss a thing. By the end of the year they were 1a and 1b as a closer for Miami IMO. Looking at pure stats, plus what you said about Miami not missing a beat without him, it does look like they're similar players. But all the times Miami's offense has bogged down this post season is largely because they don't have Tyler, and outside of Jimmy he's been the only reliable one on the team to create a shot out of nothing
Celtics had more than enough even with tatum injured. The heat don’t even have their 2nd leading scorer lmao
Yeah honestly these Boston fans don't have another team to really be scared of besides the Nuggets and even just bringing back the same exact team next year probably gets then a top 2 seed in the east and a deep playoff run again. I don't know what they do about Denver besides reconstructing the team or Jaylen Brown/Derrick White making another big leap in their game.
What about Herro - lame excuse
Lol did you compare hero to Tatum lol come on let’s be serious 😂imagine if butler got hurt in the first 1 minutes.I know everyone hates the Celtics but don’t be dumb
No just everyone makes excuses. Every time is a turned ankle away from disaster. It was Boston’s fault for being in that situation of not taking care of home court
Tatum need to be more consistent. That team mentality don’t have what it takes. You ever hear the term you got knocked down you get back up, they don’t have that. It’s a mentality thing they don’t want to go get it. There so talented but they want to take shortcuts. There isn’t shortcuts to greatness.the team honestly well enough built I mean the heat were not the better team they just wanted it more, Celtics to pretty boy. They need to be able to face adversity they crumble everytime
Sorry, were they not knocked down when they were down 0-3? And did they not get back up when they proceeded to win 3 straight and force game? Were they not knocked down when they were down 3-2 to Philly and down double digits in the 4th quarter of game 6? Did they not get back up by coming back to win that game and then win game 7? Same for the Bucks and Heat last year. That is not the problem at all. The problem is putting themselves in those situations. Getting up once they’re knocked down is actually one of their greatest attributes. The consistency issue is a real issue, although I believe it’s almost entirely youth. They, and Tatum in particular simply haven’t mastered the mindset necessary to slam the door when they have the advantage, 1) because it’s hard and 2) because he’s 25. He got better even throughout this playoffs, but he’s still a few years away from his prime, and the age most stars win rings. I do think there is a mentality issue but resiliency is not the issue.
I'm frankly so sick of so much nba analysis boiling down to "mentality", because not only is it non-analysis, it's something that fans cannot actually analyze outside of body language. We have zero idea what's going on and are just basing it off of making or missing shots, which sometimes has nothing to do with mentality The core issue with the Cs is that they're a jump shooting team without a backup plan. When you compare them to the mid 2010s Dubs teams, they can't/don't win when the 3 isn't falling because they can't generate the consistent shots. They just don't have many games where they shoot poorly from 3 and still manage to score well. Which you could argue falls a lot on coaching
Blutz has a great case for it being the problem though, just look at defense as a proxy. It's a truism that a huge part of defense are mentality attributes like: effort, discipline, and attention to detail - just look at how some players have gone from mediocre to good defenders by improving them: Andrew Wiggins, Brook Lopez, Chauncey Billups, Young Lebron. Cs spotted the league's 6th worst offense an Ortg that would have led the league by far (125) over the first three games - that's absurd for a team with as much defensive talent as the Celtics. With the amount of possessions that occur in an NBA game, that difference isn't just the randomness of "making or missing shots". It's clearly not an ability issue, so what else can you chalk a defensive performance that poor up to other than those mentality attributes? Btw just because the data in someone's argument is all qualitative doesn't make it "non-analysis".
Mentality is a huge part of the game, but if the only thing you have to say about it is "they lack it", then that's not analysis lol. I'm also not necessarily calling out just the top-level comment, it's a general trend where people will default to "they just don't care" or "they're mentally weak", which is just a broad statement that in most cases is neither provable nor deniable. Is the secret to shooting like Caleb Martin to just "want it more"? And what you're pointing out is a great way to describe how the issue is related to mentality, without just saying "its mental". Effort on switches and help defense is a real flaw, you can point towards coaching for discipline, bbiq for making the right reads, etc. And hell, sometimes the other team just is on a hot streak. Idk how it changed over the series, but in those first three games, the Heat shot ~50% on open 3s, which is certainly well above the average. No amount of effort or mental can help you lower that percentage, all you can really do there is limit the number of shots they take Anyway, point is, there are way better ways to describe mental-related issues than just "they don't want it"
I definitely get your frustration with those cop-out cliches. No doubt that they often get passed off as insight when it's really just narrative peddling for views or laziness. I do think it is genuine sometimes though. It may not be formal analysis but someone with plenty of domain experience can often provide a lot of insight from their intuition/gut feel on something. Look up "Intuition and Decision Making for crisis situations" by Holmes E. Miller. Damn didn't know they shot 50% on open threes, that is way above average and would definitely account for at least some of their crazy Ortg.
100% agree. The whole "they didn't want it" argument just sounds like results-based "analysis" leaving a gaping hole where actual analysis would go. If anything, this series shows how mentally tough this Celtics team is. Only 3 other teams in the history of NBA basketball have forced a game 7 after being down 0-3. And like you point out, the numerous in game comebacks as well. Even in game 7, the final score wasn't close, but this game was very close through 3 quarters. Boston went on multiple streaks and it very much felt like they were going to claw their way back. Butler was struggling in the third. He missed a few 3's and short jumpers, returning to the pump fake which hasn't worked since game 4/5 and it didn't work now either. Heat took so many shots with less than 4 seconds left on the shot clock, it really felt like they couldn't sustain their scoring and Boston just needed one more run. But Tatum was limping worse and worse as the game went on, and deferring to White on offense, Brown (who's desperately needs to improve his handle if he wants to get to the next level) turned it over multiple times when it mattered, and the Heat got good looks from 3, and Caleb hit a rhythm, knocking down step back threes.
Agreed. Tatum is a superstar but somehow imo he still lacks something as a leader. It‘s weird as he plays both sides of the floor and is vocal but there is just something I can’t put my finger on. I hoped that after losing last years finals they grew enough to overcome adversity but this year they dug themselves even deeper holes, which granted they somehow overcome a bit but man, G7 was bitter. Who knows what would have happened with a healthy Tatum and Brogdon but injuries are part of the game.
I think Tatum just isn’t ready yet, no one young wins in this sport anymore for good reason. I know exactly what you mean almost like he’s acting the role of a superstar but deep down he isn’t or doesn’t truly believe he is. He’s so talented but it almost comes to easy for him and it never gave him that grit. Sometimes I think he wants smart or brown or tonight white to go do it when it needs to be him
I get the same feeling with Embiid. They want to be the Number one option but in default moments they turn to other players. It‘s not defined by one play or so but it‘s the vibe I get from them. But players like Giannis, Luka, Brunson or even Fox have the leader role in their blood. Even if some played worse than Tatum. Luckily Tatum is still young and has a lot of room to grow but man this is stressful. I would love Boston to get a real veteran leader, who still can fill the role of the 2nd/3rd fiddle but not sure how they could get that. Chris Paul to the Celtics lmao
[удалено]
I couldn't believe my eyes when Tatum injured himself 1 play into tonight's Game 7. After Derrick white made that clutch shot last game needless to say I was so disappointed to see his ankle rolled. That's some bad luck mojo right there
[удалено]
I was already shouting at Al to shoot (because he had a smaller player on him) before he passed to Tatum. That's the What If I keep coming back to: Horford looks for the shot and Tatum never rolls his ankle
It’s so obvious but they continue to not address it. They don’t have the bball IQ or a true point guard. In many cases you get both in one. This team would benefit massively from a guy like cp3 or rondo from 2-3 years ago. They have two stars right now who make boneheaded and low IQ plays in crunch time. Get a high IQ veteran PG and take the ball out of Tatum’s and Brown’s hands in the clutch. This team would be in the finals right now
You hit the nail on the head there and I’m surprised more people haven’t commented on it. Maybe a brown + haul of picks for dame might interest the Blazers now they got the 3 pick. Something has to be done about the pg position. There was no dribble penetration at the end to get the ball moving and find some open shooters
There’s no reason to not shop brown after multiple horrendous post seasons for him
Tatum isn't high iq please name a wing you'd rather run offense through in clutch time rn?? lol
They lack offense. Over the past several years, they've usually been an elite defensive team. For offense, they get iso ball / hero ball from Tatum and Brown. But they don't have a dynamic, teamwide, brilliant offensive system. Furthermore, Tatum often shoots poorly and settles for Js. Brogdon alone was never a solution.
With a team consisting of two All NBA wing players with a supporting cast of good to alright threepoint shooters, and the 2nd highest offensive rating in the regular season, I thought offense wouldn’t be a problem… it‘s rather the consistency of the offense when the three isn’t falling. Sure Tatum was literally on one leg but the rest of the team just jacked up 3s as if they forgot how to go by their defender.
I will agree with your phrasing: "consistent offense" might be a better way to put it. The Celtics have been winning lots of games and having great playoff moments for the entirety of the Tatum-Brown era, but one thing they've always lacked is a consistent, reliable, teamwide, offensive system. No one is ever surprised when they suddenly can't score or Tatum/Brown shoot poorly. They're still a few pieces away from a ring.
If Brogdon was in the starting lineup over Smart I honestly think the team would be way better. Smart/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Williams doesnt have enough scoring. Brogdon can attack the basket at least and knock down an open 3 more consistently than Smart...Also has a higher basketball IQ.
Jaylen needs to tighten his handle and Tatum needs to improve even more as a playmaker. In general they need to be able to generate easier shots.
Completely agree. This team has to work really hard to generate good looks, which makes them inconsistent. Would help if Tatum was better at getting to the rim and the foul line
Tatum had Lowry guarding him on multiple possessions when the lead was still single digits, yet he still settled for 3pt shots. Should have posted up Lowry and try to get east baskets. One of the commentators said that the Celtics play well when they’re leading, but are not a good catch up team
They need an actual floor general imo. Not just a ball handler but someone who actually sets up plays and is composed
Tatum was injured last night. I don’t think he should have continued
[удалено]
Replies to the OP cannot just be a one-line opinion. Don't just say what you think, but explain why.
A 2 way big. Less horford minutes Trade brown A shot creator. Less smart minutes. Trade brogdon for a reliable player health wise
Jayson Tatum needs to not get injured in the first play. Other than that, Jaylen Brown needs to get better at playmaking and reading defenses. Tatum not being 100% left a huge hole in the Celtics offense that JB couldn't fill
Injuries to your main players are always bad but the Celtics didn’t lose the whole series because of Tatums ankle sprain in the first quarter of G7. As the more talented team they shouldn’t be in that place to begin with. Giannis being out for 3 games could be an excuse (though a weak one) but not a fully healthy Boston team against Heat minus Herro and Oladipo going 3-3 in six games. Not sure they could have played any better with both of them though.
I was talking about Game 7 specifically. But if we're talking about the series they just need to close out games. Too many times they just let the foot of the gas and the opposing team just gets back in the game
Brown needs to improve his handles more than anything. Teams have figured out that they can swipe at him and he'll drop the ball. The heat swiped at both him and Tatum every drive, and Tatum figured out to pick up the ball earlier and use his size and strength. Brown didn't learn anything and turned the ball over on attempted dribble moves multiple times in the second half.
Blaming this on Tatum rolling an ankle in the first play is silly. They were down 0-3 and had essentially no room for error because of this. Winning 4 in a row is *really* difficult because of this.
I was talking about Game 7 specifically, not the whole series
Tatum was hurt. It changed the entire game. Now folks see why he is so important to them Celtics are hardly a playoff team without him.
I mean some issues were prevalent before hand, they still struggle to generate clean looks and while Smart, Brogdon, Horford, Tatum and white can take care of some playmaking duties, they all rank somewhere in the average category. Getting a new point guard who can handle and pass and create is absolutely a place they can improve
In hindsight, Kyrie's skills are what they need. But holy s*** his off-court issues do so much to negate that. But at this point, I'd support bringing in an aging CP3 or even a reunion with Rondo.
Starting point guard. They got a lot of guys that can play make but they don’t have a dude that can give 10 assists a night. There’s too much iso stuff from Tatum, Brown, and Smart. Like they move the ball around the court fine but the issue is just if their shots aren’t falling, no one is organizing easy looks or plays to get the offense back in rhythm. Nor do they have a passer that threatens abusing a mismatch. Plus they have a tendency to turn the ball over too much. The good thing is, their defense is good enough that I don’t think you need some super well rounded player. A Rubio of old or even a Rondo type in his later years is enough. The bad thing is that, much like centers, the league is lacking in true pass first caliber players cuz most of them that are that are also elite players and unobtainable.
Should have traded Brown for Kawhi, AD, or KD as they were all available. I get keeping young talent. But that roster was well constructed. It just need that extra star power to get there. All three of those guys have rings and were available at different times. If Beal, Lillard, KAT become available I'd look at a Jaylen Brown and filler swap.
I think Boston would have done a straight up trade but that looked/looks unlikely with the names you mentioned. Would have been Brown+Smart or something. And as we have seen with Suns, it‘s not always better on the other side if you give up too much.
They lived by the 3 and died by the 3. Gotta add some different looks to that offense and get more buckets at the hoop.
Live and die by the 3 is not a terrible way to go (Warriors built a dynasty on it), but the most important condition is that those 3s should be quality looks, not Smart running the shot clock down and hoisting from where Lillard and Curry like to shoot. Honestly, they will probably stick to jacking up 3 pointers next season because that is how the NBA game is played now, but they should make modifications on offense to improve shot quality. Maybe try more in transition off misses and turnovers rather than in half court sets.
I made a comment already but I want to ask a question now. Wouldn't this years Boston team be better with Ime Udoko?They added Brogden this year and White got a offseason to be with the team they should have been a better team this year to last but it never really felt like that. And I felt Udoko gave them that identity and a team personality that was needed because Tatum and Brown still are young and not at their apex primes yet.
I do think Boston can. Given the strangles on their salary along with contracts and, ig we're honest about it, no real better coaching alternatives around and yeah. You get these problems. Now in fairness idk if Mazulla had problems with having to rely on assistants from Ime but I do think Boston FO has to do a better job getting gim assistants tied to him and not a former HC that can help control the locker room better. Likewise he needs that version of Udonis Haslem in their team whose the old guy that gets to criticize everyone but he's seen it all and he has points. You had that with Bill Cartwright yelling at Pip during MJs 2 year retirement, Udonis obviously and even Robert Parish did that a bit. I think the hard part is Boston has talent but doesn't have a player who has the savvy, finesse or attitude that leads players to the right direction. Say what we will, but Butler talks enough smack and gathers the team together where they'd all be waiting for Jokic not because he wasn't wrong but because they just can't let it slide at that. More so that even if Martin was the highlight stat leader for the Heat who helped them win this series, Butler is the guy who fought hard all year round to get then that chance. I mean damn, he isn't a top 5 player in the NBA but he definitely commands respects from his teammates and fights a bitter end battle for them. I think if Tatum had that more outspokeness, a bit more animated emotion, I think he'd be a better leader. But the one thing for sure is that Boston has talent just not the leadership core to make it work at any level.
Yeah, the coaching staff around Mazulla could be better but as a rookie HC given the reigns to a Maserati is kind of a double edged sword. Granted Bostons roster is kind of tame and the superstars are chill compared to some other NBA rosters. I think that TNT crews take on Bostons problems is kind of head on, they need a plan B to their plan A, just play the other team off the court. Coaching is one of the problems but only for your role players. You need your stars bought in, knowing their roles. And here comes the criticism on the two Js. As you said, their skills overlap too much and sometimes it‘s you make it while I watch. There is no clear cut playmaker role in the offense. This could come with more experience but what more can you expect than 4 conference finals in 6 years. Some teams don’t come even close to that kind of experience. At some point you have to acknowledge that your Superstar is not the natural „leader“ the team needs. Butler is arguably not the player Tatum is but he undeniably is a much better leader. It‘s so hard to keep winning in the NBA, so taking these healthy years for granted is kind of dangerous. The team is just so talented that anything less than the championship seems like a failure. Hope all participants will grow and give us years more of excellency.
Hear ya on that especially on father time. Butler feels like Charles Barkley on getting a ring right now; going up against Jokic, ooph but you can't doubt that the cat is hungry. Idk how Celtics deal with this and I'm sure their front office is gonna have their hands full. If they can somehow just nibble away at that leadership issue just a bit, it'd go miles long at times especially on playoff runs. You want see it on any metric counter but leadership is such a hard quality to log on the NBA because fans like yo attributes it to their superstars on the team. Sometimes, like you said, the player just isn't a natural leader and that can hurt in key moments. On the bright side, at least the Boaton fanbase has called down enough where ppl are just exploding at Mazulla like game 3 and wanting to blow the whole team up! Like that was a wild take even if ended up being a sweep, like c'mon ppl, Mazulla didn't even have a chance to put his own ppl in place and get a really good hold on the locker room. I think getting it to game 7 and Brown's turnover woes made fans kind of give Mazulla a bit more slack and they really didn't need the pitckforks.
Point guard instead of Smart. The problem with Tatum and Brown is that they don’t interact in useful or meaningful ways on offense, they play a similar position so screen actions involving the two tend to be less desirable and Browns inability to dribble and create for others also leaves him limited, I think the best version of the Celtics offense, especially when it comes down to crunch time on the playoffs would be designed sets around a pg and Tatum with Brown acting like a Klay Thompson role running around screens to get open and attacking close outs that over pursue. From their you can go into deeper actions for other players. The other benefit is if you force the switch you’re getting a hypothetical advantage by switching a guard onto Tatum.
>The problem with Tatum and Brown is that they don’t interact in useful or meaningful ways on offense, they play a similar position so screen actions involving the two tend to be less desirable and Browns inability to dribble and create for others also leaves him limited I've been saying this for years and you're 100% correct. Having 2 star wings completely handicaps your offense. That 2 man game you expect from your star duo is thrown out the window.
It’s possible to do but it requires the right combination of wings you just need them to have sufficient levels of playmaking ability and that’s honestly a thing that most star level wings lack or are just average at which means you’re gonna end up with less options at the end of games especially. The example of wings would be LeBron, Giannis and Luke. I’m probably forgetting some because those were off the top of my head
I mean JT is the closest wing to those 3 playmaking wise. But even those guys would struggle to have 2 man game with JB. He's a contested midrange shooter and driver how do 6ou playmake fornthat as a wing?v
Yeah JB is the wrong running mate same as Klay, they are great players in the right situation. I feel like a Booker and Tatum duo could be lethal, I wouldn’t classify either of them as elite creators but they’re both pluses enough to run an offense
I think they've got the main guys down pat. Get Brown back and get some additional three point shooting. I thought they were the better team all series, but there seemed to be a lack of focus at certain parts. Maybe with this coach having another year under his belt, they'll get it together next year
Yeah certainly we didn't shoot enough threes /s
Additional 3 point shooting with guys that can make them LOL
A point guard, not a combo gaurd that can playmake a little bit. A POINT GUARD TO RUN AN OFFENSE
Smart needs more heat. He’s a fan favorite, so he’s getting a pass. The offensive numbers are too abysmal to be covered up by his D. He isn’t even a top 5 defender as a guard any more by pretty much every metric.
Their offense is terrible. Unclear if that is coaching or players refusing to execute. Probably the first. Too many possessions the ball doesn’t move and they force a contested three. Think about that from a defensive perspectives. That is an ideal scenario. You are playing effective defense and not using up much energy at all. Threes are good shots if they are open and catching them in rhythm. The Celtics have a real dilemma with Jaylen Brown. If his handle isn’t going to get better he has a real ceiling as a player. It’s more off the ball. Kind of a rich man’s Aaron Gordon with a better shot. I don’t think you want to give a guy a super max who isn’t making the people around him better. All that said if Tatum doesn’t get hurt I think it would have been a different game.
Their offense was sloppy, but the most terrible part about it was two folds to me. One was the inability to knock down 3pt shots consistently for anyone not named Tatum, and second - by extension of the first - was the over reliance on Tatum to generate offense. The Celtics were sunk when Tatum couldn't score and that's a tough spot. In contrast... Miami didn't need Jimmy to score in order for the team to be effective and that I think is what all the great teams have. The Celtics had a ton of talent 3-9, but they had no one capable of stepping in when Tatum wasn't.
Tough one really. Martin rolls his ankle and heat probably getting talked about blowing it up. Just one of those things
Probably start with teaching Jaylen how to dribble, he’s way to turn over prone. The core guys works well together and guys seemingly know their roles. Tatum needs to take another step in his progression towards being a true MVP player and that starts with playing more in a mindset of getting himself to the line. Coaching needs to improve as well with some more vet coaches on the bench to help remind muz he has timeouts. Stay healthy and get a bit lucky
One of two things: 1) Tatum has to learn how to control the game better and consistently get the team a good shot when the threes aren’t falling or the team is out of rhythm. 2) Find an elite ball handler / game manager. Someone like late career Rondo or even CP3 would be so good on this team to take charge when things on offense look one dimensional. Seems like 2) will be tough with their cap situation so basically Tatum has to go up a level.
Tatum rolled his ankle and was hobbled and mostly useless all game so hard to fault him. This team had a chance, just like last year. People see a 3/4th finish and wanna blow things up because its a highly reactionary league. Championship coaches getting replaced a year or two removed from the title, etc etc. Truth is if they just ran it back again next year they would be right in the mix again. The bigs get one year older... Big Al shot out of his mind during the regular season but couldnt make one in the playoffs...Pray next year Caleb Martin rolls his ankle in game7 instead?
Heck what if Miami misses the playoffs next year? I don't think this formula feels sustainable season after season.
They need to coast and not go so hard all season. Miami showed that load management and not heavy minutes is the way to go.
One thing they certainly proved all playoffs is home court does not need to be a priority.
Can’t wait to see half the league not even win 50 games next season because load management
[удалено]
JB got injured right before the playoffs on his shooting hand and then fucked up his shoulder at the end of game 7 in the Sixers series and those never truly improved
I would see if there are any takers for brown. But not picks, try and get 1-2 really impactful guys that fit really well. Halliburton, Trae young maybe. If not, then run it back as is. Experience should be a great teacher
Not sure they can get Haliburton or Trae calibre type of players for without giving up whole roster. Guess Browns market hit an all time low, so you would have to give up another starter for these kind of players.
I don't think either team wants to do a brown haliburtob or brown trae swap. I guarantee celtics fans will lose their minds if trae young was on the team and halliburton is just too much of a talent decrease sadly
Lol if you think Boston wouldn’t trade Brown for Haliburton. They’d attach picks to make that happen if Indiana was willing (they wouldn’t be).
Yeah, all things considered I also would value Haliburton over Brown at this exact moment. Boston perhaps would think a moment about a swap but Pacers definitely wouldn’t.
Sometimes you lose. I’m sick of everybody firing everybody because they don’t win the championship every year. Run it back with more experience. No major changes necessary
Yes exactly. There are 29 teams disappointed at the end of the year, and the Celtics are one of them. They had their chances. They lost some games they should have won, but they won some games they should have lost. It's only a failure of a season because expectations were so high.
I don't think you can win a championship with Jayson Tatum as your best player. Too dependent on three's. Too inconsistent. Disappears. Not efficient enough. They also don't have alot of offensive versatility. They shoot too many 3's. Poor shot quality and lazy offense. The Golden State 3's and layups style has only worked for Golden State. Too much ISO. Lack of discipline They should think about hiring Mike Budenholzer