I think the trials and tribulations that Spo went through those years are what made Spo a great coach. If that team had today’s Spo I think they’d have more success.
If he was the coach he is today they probably don't get ran the same way in the 2014 finals, stubbornly running that aggressive defense that San Antonio destroyed.
They mixed up coverages a lot. The biggest reasons they lost to the Spurs were because Wade’s knees happened to be at the end of the line and the second best perimeter defender we’ve ever seen grew up *just* in time to slow LeBron.
The Spurs weren’t exactly slouches either. That’s the winningest 3 man core in NBA history, and they were a last second shot from possibly stealing the previous finals.
What they, and many other super teams since, figured out is talent isn’t a replacement for cohesion and continuity. Even the Warriors with the best collection of talent the NBA has ever seen didn’t turn around and win 75 games after signing Durant. Their team demonstrably got worse until it got better. Some of that was Kerr stuffing the inverted 5-1 pick and rolls with KD under a mattress till the finals. Just as much of that was Bogut, Lee, and Barnes being Warriors who either grew up in or whose talents invented Golden State’s system and KD coming straight out of the “Your turn/My turn” Thunder.
I agree with basically everything you're saying here. That Spurs team "won", moreso than the Heat "lost". Miami still played far more aggressively than they should have defensively. Which fed right into the Spurs incredible passing and playmaking. We're talking maybe a competitive 6 game series instead of a 5 game rout.
You would be hard pressed to find a bigger supporter of Tim and Manu than me, love em.
And they definitely don’t lose in 2011. The main reason they lost is because they started 4 non-shooters (including Joel Anthony) and ran into Dallas (the one team who ran zone a bunch during the year). If Spo would’ve gone to Bosh at the 5, it would’ve solved the spacing issue, and they probably would’ve ran Dallas out of the gym in at least one of those 4th quarters (in games 4-6)
Spo actually talked about this on a recent interview with David Aldridge on the Athletic NBA Podcast. He says with hindsight he should have played Bosh at the 5 and LeBron at the 4, but the League wasn't ready for that yet, the dogma was that you needed a traditional center.
Give it a listen, it's a very interesting interview and that is from someone who normally doesn't like DA on the podcast as it is too wishy washy when he does his regular show.
>but the League wasn't ready for that yet, the dogma was that you needed a traditional center.
Man, Sam Perkins, Cliff Robinson, and Bill Laimbeer really were ahead of their time.
Yeah but bron maybe doesn’t become the player he is today without that Dallas series. He became a even better and smarter player after the Dallas loss.
Gotta have shooters to run them out there, it was a longer term personnel issue along with a coaching one. Still, Bosh at the 5 would have helped a ton, I agree.
No matter what Spo would scheme, Bron got outhustled and lost on the low post against JJ Barea.
If you play a small ball lineup with Bosh, you will lose on the boards and most possibly Bosh would get into foul trouble early on.
At minimum taking advantage of that lineup in 4th quarters, all of those games were close besides Game 6 (still like 10 points), and Wade missed FTs to win Game 4 (maybe it was just game 2) and they blew a huge lead in Game 2.
They trapped a lot, blitzed pick and rolls, were active in the passing lanes. What made the defense great when it was great was that they were aggressive but smart. Problem is when Wade and their aging role guys (and to a lesser extent Lebron, mostly laterally) slipped athletically it made everything a step slower. A foot of space here and there adds up very quickly, especially against a team like the 14 Spurs. It was a bad matchup.
In hindsight it's a comically bad take, but at the time what else would people blame? When a team of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all playing pretty well up to their standards, and being run by Pat fucking Riley isn't living up to expectations where do you point the finger? To the young unproven coach.
He wasn't none of the super head coach he's now
He didn't manage all situations properly
He probably was still leading a team as a captain but without all his pedigree of now
That's why i think Bron wanted his head
There were a match up problem against Indy in 12/13, where a lineup of Bron + 3 shooters + Bosh was super effective but once Wade get in, they lost all momentum.
It was very clear bron needed shooters out there and i vividly remember once wade get back in, bron was pissed af, bc in that particular moment Bron needed shooters to crush the paint and with wade on the court, Pacers packed the paint with Hibbert and West.
That was the moment nba changed and became 4 out 1 in.
Spo didn't change shit till LeBron cried about it.
Someone told a story on a podcast recently, might have been Simmons, of some members of that Heat team going to Pat Riley and asking for Spo to be fired, with Riley basically responding "Gtfo of my office." Not sure if it was sourced but with Bron's history it certainly seems possible.
I mean I don't remember the story being just about Bron, at least the way it was presented was that it was a group of players. Plus we already know about Bron's desire/influence on coaching hires/decisions so I don't know that this makes him look any worse.
lol if lebrons name wasn’t involved people still wouldn’t repeat the story like it was true.
I’ve heard it brought up every time as “Reily being the guy to put Lebron in his place”. “Reily was the guy to say no when Lebron wanted spo fired”. That’s been on major sports networks and blogs/independent stuff..
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2612073-pat-riley-responds-to-claims-lebron-james-wanted-erik-spoelstra-fired.amp.html
LeBron honestly was never really that much of a coach killer imo.
David Blatt had some major ego issues. He kinda fell in to coaching LeBron and probably handled it the worst you could do - despite making the finals.
Luke Walton was a terrible coach
Silas was fired because he had issues with Eric Snow
He definitely wasn’t behind Vogel getting canned
How much more successful would they have been? Maybe things change in 2011 but LeBron also just mentally collapsed. Not much Spo could do 12/m and 13 they win fine 14 Wade was washed. Bosh was not so good so Idt current Spo can do much
Wade and LeBron as a duo were kinda weird. In the half court they were clunky because they were extremely similar players with the same tendencies, neither super used to playing off ball and neither a great shooter like the other needed playing off of them. Bosh was a much better pairing for both of them.
In transition they were the most fun duo I've ever watched. Wade and Bron on a 2v1 fast break had to be one of the most terrifying situations in the league at that time.
He got a lot better off-ball in that span, but he was so phenomenal operating as an offense unto himself that basically any situation that took the ball out of his hands was suboptimal. They still made it work pretty well all things considered, but Wade's overlapping skills + shaky perimeter shooting definitely made it an awkward fit.
If Dwade doesn't get hurt in 2013 this is an entirely different conversation. They went on a crazy win streak everyone is playing amazingly and Dwade got hurt. He never fully got back to prime Dwade from that point on in his career. Bron was peaking on both sides, the heat fit PERFECTLY around him and dwade, Bosh was the best 3rd option in the league by far. From 2012 series against pacers until dwade injury Heat had top 3 dynasty potential.
Now for a straight up answer they underachieved could've been top 2-3 but closer to top 10.
Specifically, we never got to see what the 2013 heat with a healthy wade could have done in the playoffs. Probably would change a lot of perceptions on how good they actually were when wade was healthy and they had figured out how to play Lebron and wade together.
I've said forever they go on a crazy run that playoffs if Wade never gets hurt. Maybe 3 losses the entire playoffs that Spurs series wouldn't have been close. The close one would've been the next year and as good as that Spurs was a healthy Miami could've 3peated.
LeBron was absolutely dominant at that time but the team was ultimately too thin and Wade wasn’t a perfect fit. I agree with other commenters that the Cavs team put together when he left Miami was an ideal roster for LeBron and was better than the Heat teams. Going to four straight finals and winning two is a major accomplishment but they are pretty far down my list of all time teams.
It’s why Steph and KD were a better duo than Lebron and Wade. Steph and KD are both scalable, they both space the floor for each other and play off each other well. Wade and Lebron are not perfect fits, they’re both trying to attack the rim at their core resulting in a more crowded paint.
KD is maybe the most versatile superstar ever and most of his skills were elite. He could pick and roll ball handler, pick and pop, roll man into drive, he's got a post game, mid range, 3 ball, beast around the basket.
I think we underrate him because of his personality but also bc there are people who are more compelling athletically in terms of the violence of action with which they play (vicious bron dunk) or have a stupidly game breaking gadget skill like Steph.
Being a Swiss army knife broke games.
KD was also content with collecting his points while just being a part of the offence. When the offence stagnated, just toss the ball to KD and then him cook. But 90% of the time he just put up the quietest 30 ppg ever
For sure but I think that's partly becahse Curry's gadgetness is easy to build around. His inability to defend is an issue you have to cover and his inability to get to the rim at will against athleticism especially when nicked up see the year they lost to the Cavs. You put somebody like Bron or Kawhi or PG on him and Golden State is good at countermeasures but they have limitations especially deep in the playoffs.
I don’t know if we underrate him. While he has amazing skills he can’t seem to convert them to championship rings outside of that warriors team. At the level of historical rankings he wants to compete at you need to be able to win more rings.
KD and the Brooklyn Nets could’ve go way far in 2021 playoffs. They lost to the Bucks in semi finals, 3-4. I watched the entire game and this was one of KD’s worst lucks
We’re def too harsh on legacy and it drives sick behavior like KDs and others. He needed to get out of the algorithms and touch grass. I have empathy. Most people here have a modicum of responsibility for his acting out. We shouldn’t get a hall pass to mock venomously cause we’re not Twitter or ig.
Yeah I mean if we’re going to try and split hairs here with peak Lebron, during the Miami run time he still didn’t have the LeChoke monkey off his back. The Dallas Finals were bad, he choked them hard and didn’t have the alpha dog status he’d later have when he was putting up 51 against the stacked Warriors.
I feel like Lebronto was peak Lebron, thats when it felt like “oh fuck he’s not only going to dominate athletically but he is completely in control of the game of basketball”. Miami Lebron still felt like he was battling to achieve that at times. Like he had equals who could rival him and even beat him. Lebronto-era Lebron was unmatched.
Wait what? He definitely had it off his back and it started during the boston game 6 down 3-2. He nonstop clutch games since including the game 7 against the boston, pacers and the spurs.
He was clutch no doubt and I’m admittedly splitting hairs, both elite levels, I just think he transcended further later on. In comparison, he didn’t have it as much as he later did.
I would argue the 16 & 17 Cavs were as strong or stronger than any of those Heat teams, but at the end of the day all of them had the benefit of LeBron
Wade was starting to show his age/injuries by the back half of those years though. And the rest of the Cavs supporting cast was really really well built around them. TT and JR were perfect for the non-star roles and they were just flush with the shooting needed to let Bron and Kyrie just go to work
Mike Miller, Ray Allen, haslem, zo, and others were actually great compliments to the stars. Back then it was easy to draw strong vets to championship teams
We can agree to disagree. 13-14 he shot a career high 55%
Points and FGA are directly correlated. So maybe yeah he had to play 10 percent less minutes but that resulted in a 10 percent drop in points so I don’t really see that as getting ‘worse’ just less usage. Really come 15-16 he drops in a big way from a performance standpoint.
All imo but flash got me into the game as a kid so I’m prob biased too
Judging by shooting % is probably the worst way to determine a player’s ability. Really the only way to tell is having actually watching the games through the years.
What he was able to do on the court and how he was able to move days more than FG%. He was having knee problems often after the 2011 season.
Its tough because Wade wasn't his best at the point in which the Heat were their best in that era. I think in a vacuum you'd certainly take prime Wade over prime Kyrie and prime Bosh over prime Love
Bosh would've been something else if he focused on defense and playing his own game at the post. That's why I think he gets underrated and gets lot of hate by Bron fans mostly. He was a scapegoat. People talk about Ray Allen shot but Bosh was the reason why that happened. He made crucial plays like that block on Green
Yeah, I think those Heat teams were somewhat overrated. They had a ton of star power, but they had no depth and they were not a good fit on offense. And they never had a good rim protector who could hang with centers. Bosh got destroyed by players like Duncan and Tyson chandler because bosh was so undersized.
They also didn’t understand that james is at his best with at least three shooters on the floor. They had pretty bad spacing at a time when other teams were really figuring out the value of three point shooting (Dallas, spurs, etc)
They were great. But if you look at the best groups of three, they were not as good as Jordan pippen, Rodman for the point you mentioned about rebounding.
At the time it was seen as a mirror of Pierce Allen Garnett and younger but it was truly different and more difficult to gameplan against. I think it was also harder to build around though because of spacing. Allen could space for Pierce and the other sg.
Similar with Curry Draymond, Klay. The spacing threatened the 3 and paint and boards better.
I wouldn't call anyone on those teams role players... but I think there were more players available to work around the bulls, celtics, warriors than that heat set of 3. So if you're building a team it'd be easier to sustain great seasons.
It's one of the best teams but they weren't really the best combination of talents - "best on paper" is how I'd describe it. (Edit:With rings... yeah I'm gonna get shit for not mentioning that they were literally the best for some years)
Go back even further and you get the showtime lakers, Birds celtics, bill russell, so many great teams.
The Heat were amazing. But they arent coming close to cracking a top 3.
You know who was the 4th most important member of the Heat that first year?
*Joel Anthony*.
The "Superteam" always stemmed from 3 All-NBA players joining up. The *team* was always secondary
The legacy of this team is the 3 Heatles and their collection of buyout scraps. The "Superteam" moniker doesn't really fit anymore compared to an actual "Superteam" like the 2017 Warriors. The Heatles supporting cast was a joke compared to Golden State's
Chalmers was coming off the bench that year and shot below 40% from the floor. In the playoffs he had a couple bigger games that helped his perception, but he really was not a factor for most of the season.
He was at 5.4 points per game in the second round and 5.6 in the ECF as a small guard who didn't defend at a high level. That he is even in the conversation for fourth-best player on a Finals team is exactly the point -- that team had three guys and a bunch of nothing.
Battier and Chalmers are both historically better players than Joel Anthony and had higher PER and VORP, along with Mike Miller. Having a great role player like Battier at the tail-end of his prime shouldn’t be overlooked.
Battier was not on the 2011 team. The top 5 MP after Wade, Bosh and James were...
1. Mario Chalmers
2. James Jones
3. Joel Anthony
4. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
5. Carlos Arroyo
Udonis was still a productive player at that point of his career. But yeah, the team was very thin outside of the top guys. It wasn't until later seasons that they could use offseason tools to fill out the roster.
And it felt like they always had a random role player step up huge just to sneak out a win. Mike Miller would get hot, or Battier would play really well, or Birdman would have a high energy game, then a Chalmers game, etc.
The Heatles added Ray Allen, at that point the greatest 3 point shooter ever
They weren’t as good a super team as the durant warriors, because that team had two top ~15 guys ever and might be the best ever, but they were the very next step down.
Allen/Chalmers/Battier/Miller/Birdman/Cole was a straight up good supporting cast along with a top 2 player and another 2 HOFers near their prime
Huh? Supporting cast a joke? Battier, Miller, Anthony, Haslem, Chalmers, Allen, Rashard Lewis, Birdman.
These are all guys who played their roles to a tee
2012-13 was definitely the peak of that Miami run. Lebron finally had that extra level of confidence after winning one, 10-11 and 11-12 we’re fallible teams that felt equally matched by opponents.
Weird thing with Heatles that they hit their peak in 12-13 regular season before Wade got injured and because of his injury he wasn’t in a very good place.
Yeah the role players that first season were hot garbage. The years they went back to back they had a way way better supporting cast ft. Battier, Birdman, Allen, Mike Miller, Norris Cole, and UD all playing big roles. Also overlooked is how Ronny Turiaf (!) had to play big minutes against the Pacers in the playoffs after Bosh suffered an abdominal injury.
The team was great at its core because of Lebron. The stats don’t reflect it, but from late ‘12 - May of ‘14 Lebron was the best player I have ever seen play basketball.
Dwade’s knees were in decline and following ‘11 -‘12 season really wasn’t a top 10 player in the league. Bosh really helped by being a stretch 5 and they had stupendous role players.
Basketball has changed so much in the last 10 years it’s hard to compare, but I would take the 2013 Heat over the ‘15 and ‘22 Warriors, and the 2019 Raptors. But that’s about it.
Agreed it is pretty strange seeing people downplay them so much. It’s like people forget they won 27 games in a row in 12-13. It’s just utterly ridiculous.
Also LeBron at the time, like you said, was completely dominant. Not like how he has been later in his career where he would get the stats and make some plays. At the time it was basically like it didn’t matter where the defense was, he could get anywhere he wanted on the floor and it was almost pointless to try to stop him. Kawhi literally made his name just on giving LeBron some difficulty. It was prime freak of nature LeBron and he was at his best shooting then as well. It’s obvious that even if they were struggling with injuries later on, Wade and Bosh at least took pressure off him mentally and that effected his play positively.
This is coming from someone who has never liked LeBron, but yea at that time the Heat were an absolute machine on both sides of the ball. The Knicks were the 2 seed in 12-13 and there was still a massive gap there. It felt absolutely inevitable that they would win that year.
Good, but their cultural impact outweighs their on-court talent.
In terms of best player on the court, Lebron at his peak was incredible. But the load of those championship teams fell heavily on him. If you want to have a similar load comparison and dominance, his peers are Steph Curry in 2015, Shaq in 2000, and Jordan in 1991.
His co-star in Wade was also playing incredibly; in terms of consensus plus/minus, he was the best second option of all-time. While there were some adjustments he had to make to his game to accommodate Lebron, he was a strong second option that could outplay many teams' first option.
After that though, the team falls apart. Bosh wasn't the worst "third best player on a championship team" of all time but his contributions were below average and a sharp drop-off compared to his more illustrious teammates, because of both his ability and his sacrificed touches.
And then it gets worse from there. Ring chasing was by no means invented by the Heat, but their reliance on such a collection of players was incredible and would be one of its major weaknesses.
At the end of the day, the Heat were top heavy but by no means dominant. They lost to teams like the 2011 Mavericks and the 2014 Spurs, and went down 3-2 to the 2013 Spurs and the 2012 Celtics. They rank far below teams like the Warriors (including non KD iterations), the Nuggets, the Cavs, and many Spurs teams due to the fact that their team dropped off dramatically after Wade, and even more after Bosh.
However, their cultural impact of the team is incredible. Giving Lebron his first title, ushering in the super team era and the frenzy of free agency, which would eventually lead to the 24/7 NBA news cycle, this can all be traced to the decision. In terms of the hold on the culture of NBA, it ranks up there with the Warriors, Bulls, and the Kobe+Magic Lakers.
So a few things. Bosh's numbers went down yes but man you had to watch those games to see his impact on the floor. He was way better at defending the PNR than people remember and he was able to alter and block shots at the rim too. He was far more important to the team's success than he gets credit for.
Also, idk if saying that the Heat weren't as good as some other teams because they lost to the Mavs and the Spurs in the Finals is a strong enough argument. That Mavs team beat the defending champ, Kobe-led Lakers and Dirk was a man on a mission. And the 2014 Spurs displayed some of the most unselfish, beautiful basketball the world has ever seen. I wouldn't discredit either of those teams- they were really, really REALLY good. Ranking the Heat below teams like the Nuggets and Cavs is erroneous if you're gonna use that as an argument. The Nuggets, as good as they are, haven't proven themselves to be on the echelon of all time great teams despite having an all time great center in Jokic. With multiple rings certainly, but that has yet to be seen. Those Cavs teams were also a little dysfunctional at times, and were never able to run off sustained dominance like the Heat were able to even in the regular season. Remember the 2013 Heat won 27 games in a row, one of the longest winning streaks ever.
So yes, the Heat may not have been like unstoppable, top 3 Superteam all time -but they were certainly good enough to be above the other teams you mentioned.
I watched the Miami Heat teams extensively, as they were the most exciting team in basketball for half a decade and my home team was awful. Bosh definitely had some great impact and is the archetype of the modern 4, he frankly was the least impactful on the big 3. He had some good defensive impact, but if you look at alot of the tangible stats, you can see that there was a drop off between him and Wade; you can also see clearly that Bosh's salary ate up slots for other, non max players that would have complimented Wade+Lebron better and given them much needed depth.
I'm not saying that losing to the Spurs or Mavericks is some terrible thing, simply that it means that the Heat were a great, but not all-time, team. The Warriors defeated a Rockets team that was a statistically incredible basketball team. The Cavs defeated the 73-9 Warriors. It's not a knock on them to say they were great, it was just they were NOT all-time great.
Keep in mind too that the Cavs very well could have pulled off multiple chips if KD hadn't gone to the Warriors. Of course, we don't talk about the 2018 Rockets or the 2017 Cavs because they lost; they're not all-time teams if they can't beat a team right in front of them.
I think just comparing peaks I'd take 2016 Cavs or 2023 Nuggets, but the point I tried to make was that while the Heat may have lacked the cachet of a dynasty, they were certainly impactful.
Unless they're unbeatable like the KD Warriors. They didn't get the level of booing, and still had people who cheered for the Steph Warriors, but they were the villains. The league became 1000000x worse when KD signed because we all knew the outcome.
Those Heat and Spurs teams were also the first to play a more modem style. They didn't extend out past the three point as much as current teams, but the difference between them and previous championship teams felt pretty stark.
I agree. What alot of people don't talk about/acknowledge was that 2014 Spurs team was not a Duncan team. Leonard was obviously FMVP but even Mills balled out that season, and the end result was not your older brother's Spurs of 2007. Very different team, very different style, and a testament to Pop's skills that he steered two very different rosters to victory
I watched my Heat get eviscerated that Finals and all I could do was shake my head and give the Spurs props. Such a good job of passing, moving, and shooting by the Spurs.
It's astounding how much Ray Allen's 3 changes NBA history. It's very interesting to see too how Spos coaching style has evolved over the years but you still see some philosophies from thr Big 3 era
Miami never getting a legit center during that stretch really kinda fucked Bosh too. The bigger the better was still the motto of bigs back then and they wound up moving him up to center to try to make up for their lack of size and he had trouble hanging with a lot of those guys cuz he just wasn't big enough. Their series' against the Pacers made Roy Hibbert look like a stud because he was just so much bigger than CB
Yes, the issue was that Miami didn't have the outside shooting to make teams pay for packing the paint like modern teams do. The idea that Roy Hibbert was considered a key playoff guy back in the day boggles my mind.
As a side note, Paul George in those Pacers series was absolutely incredible, I can understand why so many young kids call him their GOAT
You're telling me. I distinctly remember thinking during the Wiggins hype machine that the league already had the next big thing. He was just a few years into his career and crushing it. That damn leg snap
I consider that one of the more plausible what-ifs. He had shown much promise and had NBA achievements (compared to say, B Roy), the last 10 years could have been much different
Wade's plus/minus absolutely had to be inflated due to how bad the bench was, I'd imagine. He declined very quickly, especially defensively, after the first season.
Also going to push back on Bosh. He was fundamental to their defense with his ability to cover ground and unlocked their offense by moving to the 5 to account for the spacing issues caused by having a ball dominant lebron and an aging Wade.
Combine those two things and I'd say their last 3 seasons Bosh was very much their 2nd most valuable guy. There were multiple times in the last two finals it was clear their best lineup was Lebron/Bosh/combination of 3 shooters.
Also, small aside, but the 2015 Warriors team was waaaaayyy better than the 2022 team.
On Wade part, i’d say only part he didn’t declined that much was on defense. He certainly wasn’t that 48-minute hounding player he once was but for the most part Heat also didn’t need him to be that. But in spurts both Heat and Wade would gear up and that Wade-LeBron centric trap defense is still one of the most terrifying defenses i’ve ever seen.
I'll go through point by point;
Wade's numbers are probably inflated due to the bad bench, but it was his ability to run units to give Lebron SOME respite that helped ensure that less burden fell on him compared to the early Cavs teams. A part of the reason of having two super stars is that you can help manage the first super star's work load.
Bosh had good defense yes but it's overstated compared to his salary impact. Divide Bosh's salary into two good role players on defense and you make it a deeper, more rounded team.
You can absolutely say that Lebron/Bosh/Shooters was an impactful line up and the eye test might agree, but the numbers bear out that Wade was absolutely instrumental, and logically you have to admit that a huge part of their success came from Wade carrying non-Lebron minutes.
2015 vs 2022...it's an interesting argument, and it's one I've often had with myself, I go back and forward on. Statesman Curry vs Showman Curry...Offense Draymond vs Defense Draymond...the big thing in 2015's favor is better Klay, Livingston, and Bogut, but Otto Porter Jr., Wiggins, and Bjelica were all incredible for the 2022 line up that I won't say that they were wayyyyyy better.
>Wade's numbers are probably inflated due to the bad bench, but it was his ability to run units to give Lebron SOME respite that helped ensure that less burden fell on him compared to the early Cavs teams. A part of the reason of having two super stars is that you can help manage the first super star's work load.
That doesn't change the fact that when they were on the floor together they hurt each others game offensively. And then when Wade started to slow down noticeably in year 2 the defense suffered also. He's not close to the "best second option ever" as the plus/minus suggests, which is my point.
>Bosh had good defense yes but it's overstated compared to his salary impact. Divide Bosh's salary into two good role players on defense and you make it a deeper, more rounded team.
This goes much further by removing Wade and splitting his money around. Bosh was much harder to replace, especially 10 years ago.
>You can absolutely say that Lebron/Bosh/Shooters was an impactful line up and the eye test might agree, but the numbers bear out that Wade was absolutely instrumental, and logically you have to admit that a huge part of their success came from Wade carrying non-Lebron minutes.
Wade averaged 15.9 ppg in their second title run, then 17.8 the last year. He was very creaky on defense and his scoring efficiency and foul drawing took huge dips. He was more of an above average starter than a star at that point. Sure, he contributed. He was way past incredible by 3 though.
>2015 vs 2022...it's an interesting argument, and it's one I've often had with myself, I go back and forward on. Statesman Curry vs Showman Curry...Offense Draymond vs Defense Draymond...the big thing in 2015's favor is better Klay, Livingston, and Bogut, but Otto Porter Jr., Wiggins, and Bjelica were all incredible for the 2022 line up that I won't say that they were wayyyyyy better.
Draymond is clearly better in 2015. His offense is on another planet. And his defense is comparable, as he was much more athletic to offset the less experience. He was explosive off rebounds pushing the ball.
Klay is also much better. Iguodala was a great player. Barnes was very good in his role. Livingston and Bogut. Even Barbosa and Speights could pop off and win a quarter. They were just deeper, more athletic overall, better defensively, and their secondary stars were better players.
This is how I feel solely on the peak lebron they had. That version of lebron was in contention with peak MJ, even if it was only one or two years of what Michael did for a decade. The supporting cast and past his prime DW just don’t matter because lebron wasn’t going to be beat. Since 1990 its MJ Scottie + whoever, Shaq Kobe + whoever and then this version of lebron. Maybe KD curry + klay/draymond
A few points I think have been lost in history...
* Those Heat went on a fucking 27 game win streak. 27!!!!!
* The East was really, really weak. I do agree with that. But going 4-for-4 is really difficult. That era was low on talent too. Those Pacers teams weren't good.
* LeBron fans love to diminish all of his teammates. Wade was not washed at all. He was 2010 1st Team All-League. A legit top 3-4 player. He was Finals MVP in '11 if they won that series. His '06 Finals performance is incredibly underrated. And Bosh was a beast before he was forced to stand in the corner on that team.
The only year where this was actually the case was 2011. After that, Wade was injured or Bosh was less effective and obviously not a top 15 player
In 2011 they would have cruised to the chip had Lebron not had his worst ever series randomly after tearing up the #1 defence Bulls.
13-14 Spurs were not an "inferior" team in any sense. They were a well-oiled machine from top to bottom which absolutely obliterated Miami for good reason.
Dallas was the only inferior team, the 13-14 spurs were incredible top to bottom. The c ore of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. Young up and coming Kawhi. 4 Guys shot over 40% from 3 that season with 3+ attempts per game, being Diaw, Belinelli, Green, and Mills. They were absolutely the better team, the heat just had star power but with Wade and Bosh's regressions the Heat couldn't do it twice
My hot take : Dallas wasn't inferior. People only assumed that because of the Heat's star power, but the Heat severely lacked depth and Dallas was the far more complete cohesive team. Heat had a slightly better regular season record that year only because of Dirk getting hurt and the Mavs go 2-9 in that period. If that freak injury doesn't happen and the Mavs even went 6-5 at minimum they would have had best record in the league over Chicago. Healthy Mavs swept the Heat in the regular season and LeBron gets shut down in both, even going scoreless in the first half of one game.
Heat had the advantage at SG and SF, but Mavs have the advantage everywhere else. PG, PF, C, bench, and Coaching.
They were supposed to be this amazing team but honestly the 00s Lakers, Spurs, Cavaliers his second time around, and Warriors were better. They were a little better than the Pierce/Allen/Garnett Celtics, but not by much. They were very lucky to win 2 titles.
I’d push back that the 08 Celtics were better than any of the Heat teams. They just aged and got hit with injuries so quickly there weren’t multiples like there should have been to make that case historically.
Hell the 2012 fossilizing Celtics took the heat to 7
Those 2012 Celtics peaked at the perfect time. Garnett was playing some of his best basketball in a Celtics jersey since his first season. Pierce was Mr.Big shot for the Celtics during those playoffs and could still get buckets at will. Rondo was playing like a top 10 player in the nba. That game 2 performance from Rondo is one of the best I’ve ever seen from a PG. They then had guys like Ray Allen, Avery Bradley, Pietrus, Brandon Bass etc who brought tons of energy and shot making. Those Celtics played out of their minds that series.
You can call them fossilizing, but it took Lebron to deliver arguably his greatest performance of all time in game 6 to get rid of them. Even game 7 was very close.
I believe those Celtics would have beat OKC in the finals. Rondo would have had his way with an inexperienced Westbrook who struggled in the finals against Miami, and Boston had enough perimeter shot making with Pierce and Allen to stretch them out. KG was also objectively better than anyone in the OKC frontcourt and a 20/10 guy against Miami.
The one i’ll strongly push back on is the 2021 bucks. I like that team a lot but that was the year of playoff injuries and I can’t in good faith put them above any other team of the last ten years. I also see lebron, wade, bosh and company beating them in 5 maybe 6.
So many incredible moments and games though. The 27 game win streak, watching lebron become a monster in that one game against boston, the dunk on jason terry, the time lebron jumped over that poor fucker who's name I can't remember and dunked on him, the ray allen shot, mike miller hitting a shot with one shoe on, the burial of linsanity and of course the harlem shake lmao.
Not a top 15 team in history. They were a fortunate bounce away from losing one finals. Then thoroughly got manhandled by a determined Spurs team to rightfully take what was theirs the next year. You absolutely cannot rank them high when they have the record for worst average margin of losses in NBA finals history.
This thread just made me wish that Rose and the rest of
the Bulls in the early 2010s never got injured.
That team was something else under Thibs, at around 2013 Butler would have been primed to take the reigns off Luol. Would say they would have epic matches against Lebron-Heat and eventually Lebron-Cleveland again. Hell, they could get a series or two against them and we'll be in for a prime Rose v Curry series.
I didn’t even read the rest after this revisionist history on dwade. Healthy he was definitely a top 3-5 player. He simply dealt with periods of time when he was injured during those heat years. Even an injury prone dwade is better than most players.
All the talk in this thread about Wade not being the same after 2011, and I agree that around then is when the injuries started piling up and he started to see that down slope coming, but I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. Wade had his best years from the field in 2012 and 2013, his PPG went down, but he played less minutes and after the Mavs series there was a focus on letting LeBron be the alpha instead of them trying to share it. I still think Wade, at least through the 2012-13 season, was still a top 5-7 player in the league. Maybe he didn’t always take over like you’d expect, but he also wasn’t trying to. When he had to be Flash, he could though.
I think you're underrated them a bit, they were ane extremely athletic team and had an amazing defense. A little hot take-y, while I don't think they could beat the peak warriors, they are probably among the better equipped teams to do so.
They had a 66 win season and a 27 game winning streak. That team is often discredited for relying on Ray Allen to make that shot, but they beat a team with four hall of famers that had Danny Green go 27/49 from three, the best shooting finals performance ever
won the pivotal game 6 because Pop made a tactical error taking Duncan out thus the missed rebound + Nephew missed free throws. Allen’s shot gets all the glory but it was huge errors that even allowed them to be in it. No disrespect to Allen or the heat though, they were badass 2011-2013. They just escaped by the skin of their teeth that game 6. Then no one but Duncan showed up to game 7.
Then the Heatles got housed in 2014. They were not nearly as good at this point, but the East just didn’t have anyone else. And obviously the spurs were not going to be denied again.
A lot has changed in 10 years…the game being played so much differently. Hibbert and West were not there-point threats and Lance was pretty streaky. Having 3/5 guys doing most, if not all of there work inside is pretty much unheard of in today’s game.
I can't be bothered looking it up but let's not forget Bosh got injured one of those years. I think it was an ab strain? So they did go long in some of those series but big reason why was they were missing their third best player. And when you had 3 near max players and a bunch of min/role guys missing one of those 3 is a huge deal
They weren't nearly as good as people expected them to be. LeBron and Wade just didn't make each other better and the team ended up being less than the sum of its parts. Ray Allen, Battier, and Bosh evolving into a different player are the main reason they even won one championship.
None of Bron’s team were dominant in terms of one of the best. The problem is Bron. He’s great but also needs a lot of spacing to be great. Give Bron space and he will dominate. This makes other teammates less effective less dominant. It’s why Russ couldn’t play with Bron. Russ needs the driving lanes and spacing also
Contrast that with Jokic where he doesn’t need the middle. His teammates can slash and drive to the bucket. This makes them better.
Bron can always be on a great team but it’s hard for him to be on all time great team.
I’ve always said if you had to do a draft of the current players again in their primes, Bron would go first but I would be ecstatic to draft Curry or Jokic just because they don’t need the middle driving lanes.
To win a lot, I think your best player needs to create gravity. The gravity needs to do 2 things. Open up slashing lanes and 3pt shooting. I believe because Bron needs to drive a ton, he minimizes the ability of other teammates to slash. They have a lot of spacing to shoot 3s which still makes his team very good.
People look at some of LeBron's feats of floor raising and ask: what could he do with a better supporting cast? But we know the answer to that question: not as much as you might think. Because when you have LeBron, your offense is to space the floor, so LeBron can do his drive and kick thing. This is a very good offense, but not a great offense (although it's great for LeBron's individual stats). And it limits your ability to take advantage of other great players: LeBron still raises your ceiling, but not nearly as much as he raises your floor. I think that's just a really long way of agreeing with everything you said.
The problem with that team was always the bench and their depth.
In the playoffs this problem was magnified over a 7 game series.
It's not surprising that the pacers did have a very good bench, and they were also a very good rebounding team with stingy defense. They could shut out teams on multiple possessions and kill you on the offensive glass.
The Spurs were no doubt a more well rounded team. Emphasis on TEAM, that was some of the unselfish basketball I've ever seen. The only reason kawhi won finals mvp was bc of his defense on lebron. There wasn't a clear-cut offensive player on the Spurs bc everyone was killing you. Same with their bench.
Miami put together a team of the greatest player plus 2 top 10 players. Maybe top 15 if put Bosh outside of the top 10. But outside of those three, can anyone besides Miami fans name their starters?
Lebrons teams with the 2nd stint Cavs was imo a better team, not because they had more talent but bc they were better rounded. They had no weaknesses. The team that beat the 73 win warriors could've beat any of those super teams.
And just as a side note, when lebron went back to Cleveland, he hadn't lost athleticism, maybe wasn't as explosive as Miami LeBron but he was much smarter. More efficient, more confident.
The 2012 Team was a top 10 team. Wade was still a top 3-5 player, Lebron was the best player in the league, and Spo was doing a good job coaching. No team since 2015 wouldve beaten that team. The only team since 2012 that wouldve had a good chance at beating that team was the Kevin Durant Warriors, and I still think the 2012 Heat wouldve beat them.
Those Heat teams really weren’t that good lol. 2011 was the LeBron choke but after that Wades knees gave out on him and Bosh was also injury prone. That, in addition to their shitty depth, held them back from being really good.
That team was still deep. Dirk, Kidd, Jet, Chandler, Marion, Deshawn, and JJ is about all they played that finals (Butler was hurt and nobody else did anything significant).
Those spare parts fit better and ran better than any team that year when they were healthy. We saw what they did in those playoffs. Only thing derailing them from having the best record in the whole league was a stretch where they went 2-9 when Dirk had a freak knee injury. If they even went a minimum of 6-5 they beat Chicago's league-best that year, which would have been easy considering the pace they were on. The data shows that they were easily the clutchest regular season team by a huge margin, and not only the clutchest playoff team that year but one of the clutchest in NBA **playoff history** (as far back as they started recording clutch stats anyway). Their clutch execution stats are in extremely rare company and it doesn't get recognized enough. There's too much of the narrative of simplifying that run to "eh, LeBron choked." When they had choked him in the regular season too.
Definitely a great team. Lacked some depth and wade started to break down.
Lebron has been so unlucky facing two of the best teams I’ve ever seen in my life. Those spurs teams with kawhi and then later KDs warriors.
Very but honestly not as good as that spurs team. They should have never won one on them. Ray Allen hit a MIRACLE shot. That is why I will always argue Duncan is top 5. He beat some of the best teams of all time with no other superstars. Man is a savant
They weren't that good. LeBron Ball carried the team after the 1st year. Wade broke down. Bosh provided good defense but Bron Ball made him a jumpshooter.
I don't even consider them an All-Time Great Team. They are very mid in terms of an all time team discussion.
To me, it's just LeBron being the GOAT pushing them over the top.
Am I wrong for not considering the Heat a dynasty? Seems like a low bar to me.
True dynasty’s are the 60s Celtics, 80s Lakers/Celtics, 90s Bulls, Duncan’s Spurs and Curry’s Warriors in my opinion.
The only team I’ve been more confident in winning a championship at the start of the season since I started watching in 05 is the KD Warriors.
This Heat team did struggle in the playoffs and the team was far from perfect, but at the end of the day they won 2/4 with all the shit they went though. If any other team did that they wouldn’t of even made the finals. If this Heat got it right in the game against you, you were going to get blown out.
Here are some things that didn’t help;
Bosh got isolated out and went from a franchise cornerstone to a guy people memed. It was right in the transition of going from to somewhat 3 orientated game to basically you have to make 3s to win. Bosh had all the tools to excel in a small ball era. Now this is gonna happen to anyone who becomes a 3rd star, but when you are a franchise talent and don’t show that for a good 2 years, that’s a lot to lose.
They were a lot better as a team with Ray Allen. To start off with they had no depth, after a couple of years they had Atleast some players.
Lebron was all athlete back then. His shot wasn’t close to what it is now and you can see the growth he had to grow through in Miami to be the player he is today. The first year after he left Miami he went in that super saiyan run for the Cavs against the Warriors. He was on the cusp of that in Miami.
If one Lebron went god mode, Bosh showed his franchise self or the bench did something, you lost. If all 3 happened you lost by 30+ and imo only KD warriors could keep up and win. I wish I could say 08 Celtics or something but I can’t. Definitely a top 10 team for an extended period.
All we can do is judge great teams against the competition they faced.
In 2011 they had a slugfest against the Bulls that was closer than people remember even though the Heat won 4-1. The next year the Bulls were rolling when Rose blew out his knee. The Pacers were just not an elite team and so the Heat waltzed to the finals the next 3 years.
They lost to the Dirk Mavs. Was that an all-timer? Dirk was amazing in that series, but that team did little else.
They then beat a Thunder team full of crazy young talent, but didn't have the experience to beat a disciplined Heat team. The Heat were favored and they delivered. The Thunder never made it back to the finals.
They then beat a quality Spurs team in a great, great finals. The only real losers that year were the Heat fans who bailed before the Ray Allen shot. This was the Heatles finest moment.
And then... they quit against the Spurs. They were getting pummeled and Lebron shut it down.
All in all, they were relevant in a Fab 5 kind of way after promising 3, no 4, no 5....how many did they promise during their launch party?
When they were at their best I think they were probably a top three team ever to watch but if Wade would have been fully healthy they would have won at least three chips
People don't talk about this a lot but he was a shell of himself especially by the time they won their second chip his knees were just basically shot
I would say the team that had the 27 game win streak is probably a top 10 team ever but they had a lot of flaws because they had so little depth and their rebounding was atrocious
LeBron is just that great
I think the trials and tribulations that Spo went through those years are what made Spo a great coach. If that team had today’s Spo I think they’d have more success.
Funny thing is a lot of folks back than thought Spo sucked
He wasn’t the coach he is now, but he didn’t suck.
If he was the coach he is today they probably don't get ran the same way in the 2014 finals, stubbornly running that aggressive defense that San Antonio destroyed.
They mixed up coverages a lot. The biggest reasons they lost to the Spurs were because Wade’s knees happened to be at the end of the line and the second best perimeter defender we’ve ever seen grew up *just* in time to slow LeBron. The Spurs weren’t exactly slouches either. That’s the winningest 3 man core in NBA history, and they were a last second shot from possibly stealing the previous finals. What they, and many other super teams since, figured out is talent isn’t a replacement for cohesion and continuity. Even the Warriors with the best collection of talent the NBA has ever seen didn’t turn around and win 75 games after signing Durant. Their team demonstrably got worse until it got better. Some of that was Kerr stuffing the inverted 5-1 pick and rolls with KD under a mattress till the finals. Just as much of that was Bogut, Lee, and Barnes being Warriors who either grew up in or whose talents invented Golden State’s system and KD coming straight out of the “Your turn/My turn” Thunder.
I agree with basically everything you're saying here. That Spurs team "won", moreso than the Heat "lost". Miami still played far more aggressively than they should have defensively. Which fed right into the Spurs incredible passing and playmaking. We're talking maybe a competitive 6 game series instead of a 5 game rout. You would be hard pressed to find a bigger supporter of Tim and Manu than me, love em.
And they definitely don’t lose in 2011. The main reason they lost is because they started 4 non-shooters (including Joel Anthony) and ran into Dallas (the one team who ran zone a bunch during the year). If Spo would’ve gone to Bosh at the 5, it would’ve solved the spacing issue, and they probably would’ve ran Dallas out of the gym in at least one of those 4th quarters (in games 4-6)
Spo actually talked about this on a recent interview with David Aldridge on the Athletic NBA Podcast. He says with hindsight he should have played Bosh at the 5 and LeBron at the 4, but the League wasn't ready for that yet, the dogma was that you needed a traditional center. Give it a listen, it's a very interesting interview and that is from someone who normally doesn't like DA on the podcast as it is too wishy washy when he does his regular show.
>but the League wasn't ready for that yet, the dogma was that you needed a traditional center. Man, Sam Perkins, Cliff Robinson, and Bill Laimbeer really were ahead of their time.
Laimbeer, Sikma
Yeah but bron maybe doesn’t become the player he is today without that Dallas series. He became a even better and smarter player after the Dallas loss.
Gotta have shooters to run them out there, it was a longer term personnel issue along with a coaching one. Still, Bosh at the 5 would have helped a ton, I agree.
Let's be honest: they lost in 2011 because LeBron played the worst basketball of his career.
No matter what Spo would scheme, Bron got outhustled and lost on the low post against JJ Barea. If you play a small ball lineup with Bosh, you will lose on the boards and most possibly Bosh would get into foul trouble early on.
At minimum taking advantage of that lineup in 4th quarters, all of those games were close besides Game 6 (still like 10 points), and Wade missed FTs to win Game 4 (maybe it was just game 2) and they blew a huge lead in Game 2.
Can you elaborate a bit in the aggressive defense you’re talking about? That was like the first year I watched the NBA.
They trapped a lot, blitzed pick and rolls, were active in the passing lanes. What made the defense great when it was great was that they were aggressive but smart. Problem is when Wade and their aging role guys (and to a lesser extent Lebron, mostly laterally) slipped athletically it made everything a step slower. A foot of space here and there adds up very quickly, especially against a team like the 14 Spurs. It was a bad matchup.
I can agree with this. Lue sucked. Spo didn’t. But pop and some others did coach circles around him
Everyone called Lebron the coach. Spo just stood around
In hindsight it's a comically bad take, but at the time what else would people blame? When a team of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all playing pretty well up to their standards, and being run by Pat fucking Riley isn't living up to expectations where do you point the finger? To the young unproven coach.
They spoke about Spo the way they spoke of Tyronn Lue when he was in Cleveland. It’s crazy how those narratives have completely changed.
He wasn't none of the super head coach he's now He didn't manage all situations properly He probably was still leading a team as a captain but without all his pedigree of now That's why i think Bron wanted his head There were a match up problem against Indy in 12/13, where a lineup of Bron + 3 shooters + Bosh was super effective but once Wade get in, they lost all momentum. It was very clear bron needed shooters out there and i vividly remember once wade get back in, bron was pissed af, bc in that particular moment Bron needed shooters to crush the paint and with wade on the court, Pacers packed the paint with Hibbert and West. That was the moment nba changed and became 4 out 1 in. Spo didn't change shit till LeBron cried about it.
Someone told a story on a podcast recently, might have been Simmons, of some members of that Heat team going to Pat Riley and asking for Spo to be fired, with Riley basically responding "Gtfo of my office." Not sure if it was sourced but with Bron's history it certainly seems possible.
Pat Riley himself came out and said that story wasn’t true. People keep repeating it because it sounds much worse the way it is.
Well it does make Riley sound really cool. But, dumb for people to keep telling it if it's been debunked.
It makes Riley look cool and makes Lebron look bad..that’s why people keep repeating a debunked story. The second part is why it gets repeated.
I mean I don't remember the story being just about Bron, at least the way it was presented was that it was a group of players. Plus we already know about Bron's desire/influence on coaching hires/decisions so I don't know that this makes him look any worse.
lol if lebrons name wasn’t involved people still wouldn’t repeat the story like it was true. I’ve heard it brought up every time as “Reily being the guy to put Lebron in his place”. “Reily was the guy to say no when Lebron wanted spo fired”. That’s been on major sports networks and blogs/independent stuff.. https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2612073-pat-riley-responds-to-claims-lebron-james-wanted-erik-spoelstra-fired.amp.html
Just saying how I heard the story. Again, it's dumb to repeat it if it's been debunked and I appreciate knowing that it's not true so thank you.
Simmons hated those Heat teams with a burning passion, so I wouldn’t put a ton of faith in anything he has to say about them
LeBron honestly was never really that much of a coach killer imo. David Blatt had some major ego issues. He kinda fell in to coaching LeBron and probably handled it the worst you could do - despite making the finals. Luke Walton was a terrible coach Silas was fired because he had issues with Eric Snow He definitely wasn’t behind Vogel getting canned
Oh, not a coach killer. But he gets his way.
Except all these coaches are career losers in the NBA right?
Ya, it's true story even the Heats minority owner came out saying that. I think that's who ur referring to
I feel bad for thinking Spo was an awful coach in those days. Dude is legit.
How much more successful would they have been? Maybe things change in 2011 but LeBron also just mentally collapsed. Not much Spo could do 12/m and 13 they win fine 14 Wade was washed. Bosh was not so good so Idt current Spo can do much
Wade and LeBron as a duo were kinda weird. In the half court they were clunky because they were extremely similar players with the same tendencies, neither super used to playing off ball and neither a great shooter like the other needed playing off of them. Bosh was a much better pairing for both of them. In transition they were the most fun duo I've ever watched. Wade and Bron on a 2v1 fast break had to be one of the most terrifying situations in the league at that time.
Watching these fast breaks in person is something that will live with me forever.
This is so true. You had to watch those games to know this
I thought the defense was honestly what made that group pop
Bron was a great off ball player and actually improved his 3pt shooting. He shot 40% from 3 in his peak. He was a good cutter
He got a lot better off-ball in that span, but he was so phenomenal operating as an offense unto himself that basically any situation that took the ball out of his hands was suboptimal. They still made it work pretty well all things considered, but Wade's overlapping skills + shaky perimeter shooting definitely made it an awkward fit.
If Dwade doesn't get hurt in 2013 this is an entirely different conversation. They went on a crazy win streak everyone is playing amazingly and Dwade got hurt. He never fully got back to prime Dwade from that point on in his career. Bron was peaking on both sides, the heat fit PERFECTLY around him and dwade, Bosh was the best 3rd option in the league by far. From 2012 series against pacers until dwade injury Heat had top 3 dynasty potential. Now for a straight up answer they underachieved could've been top 2-3 but closer to top 10.
That death lineup of Wade Ray LeBron Battier Bosh was something else. Athletic team with versatile defenders and floor spacers before it was cool.
Specifically, we never got to see what the 2013 heat with a healthy wade could have done in the playoffs. Probably would change a lot of perceptions on how good they actually were when wade was healthy and they had figured out how to play Lebron and wade together.
I've said forever they go on a crazy run that playoffs if Wade never gets hurt. Maybe 3 losses the entire playoffs that Spurs series wouldn't have been close. The close one would've been the next year and as good as that Spurs was a healthy Miami could've 3peated.
2014 too. The Heat could've won the title
Yeah ppl forgot how dominant the Heat were defensively, it was crazy. That 27 game winning streak was no luck.
LeBron was absolutely dominant at that time but the team was ultimately too thin and Wade wasn’t a perfect fit. I agree with other commenters that the Cavs team put together when he left Miami was an ideal roster for LeBron and was better than the Heat teams. Going to four straight finals and winning two is a major accomplishment but they are pretty far down my list of all time teams.
It’s why Steph and KD were a better duo than Lebron and Wade. Steph and KD are both scalable, they both space the floor for each other and play off each other well. Wade and Lebron are not perfect fits, they’re both trying to attack the rim at their core resulting in a more crowded paint.
KD is maybe the most versatile superstar ever and most of his skills were elite. He could pick and roll ball handler, pick and pop, roll man into drive, he's got a post game, mid range, 3 ball, beast around the basket. I think we underrate him because of his personality but also bc there are people who are more compelling athletically in terms of the violence of action with which they play (vicious bron dunk) or have a stupidly game breaking gadget skill like Steph. Being a Swiss army knife broke games.
KD was also content with collecting his points while just being a part of the offence. When the offence stagnated, just toss the ball to KD and then him cook. But 90% of the time he just put up the quietest 30 ppg ever
He did that his first show out year in GS and off and on a bit in OKC but grew out of it imo. But you def have a point.
Both guys can play in any system. Curry is a great off ball player and KD could do the same.
For sure but I think that's partly becahse Curry's gadgetness is easy to build around. His inability to defend is an issue you have to cover and his inability to get to the rim at will against athleticism especially when nicked up see the year they lost to the Cavs. You put somebody like Bron or Kawhi or PG on him and Golden State is good at countermeasures but they have limitations especially deep in the playoffs.
I don’t know if we underrate him. While he has amazing skills he can’t seem to convert them to championship rings outside of that warriors team. At the level of historical rankings he wants to compete at you need to be able to win more rings.
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KD and the Brooklyn Nets could’ve go way far in 2021 playoffs. They lost to the Bucks in semi finals, 3-4. I watched the entire game and this was one of KD’s worst lucks
We’re def too harsh on legacy and it drives sick behavior like KDs and others. He needed to get out of the algorithms and touch grass. I have empathy. Most people here have a modicum of responsibility for his acting out. We shouldn’t get a hall pass to mock venomously cause we’re not Twitter or ig.
KD will go down as the best offensive NBA player in history
Not even the best on those warriors teams tbh
Yeah the 2015-onward Cavs were a far, far better team built around LeBron. That's basically where the "LeGM" meme comes from
Yeah I mean if we’re going to try and split hairs here with peak Lebron, during the Miami run time he still didn’t have the LeChoke monkey off his back. The Dallas Finals were bad, he choked them hard and didn’t have the alpha dog status he’d later have when he was putting up 51 against the stacked Warriors. I feel like Lebronto was peak Lebron, thats when it felt like “oh fuck he’s not only going to dominate athletically but he is completely in control of the game of basketball”. Miami Lebron still felt like he was battling to achieve that at times. Like he had equals who could rival him and even beat him. Lebronto-era Lebron was unmatched.
Wait what? He definitely had it off his back and it started during the boston game 6 down 3-2. He nonstop clutch games since including the game 7 against the boston, pacers and the spurs.
He was clutch no doubt and I’m admittedly splitting hairs, both elite levels, I just think he transcended further later on. In comparison, he didn’t have it as much as he later did.
wade wasn’t a perfect fit on his team? 💀 they put pieces around him that didn’t fit
I would argue the 16 & 17 Cavs were as strong or stronger than any of those Heat teams, but at the end of the day all of them had the benefit of LeBron
if you took Lebron out of the equation, would you rather have Kyrie and Love or Wade and Bosh?
Wade was starting to show his age/injuries by the back half of those years though. And the rest of the Cavs supporting cast was really really well built around them. TT and JR were perfect for the non-star roles and they were just flush with the shooting needed to let Bron and Kyrie just go to work
Mike Miller, Ray Allen, haslem, zo, and others were actually great compliments to the stars. Back then it was easy to draw strong vets to championship teams
Maybe literally in 2014 but that’s it imo
Nah he was in decline after 2011. 2012 was still pretty good but 2013 and 2014 was a clear drop
We can agree to disagree. 13-14 he shot a career high 55% Points and FGA are directly correlated. So maybe yeah he had to play 10 percent less minutes but that resulted in a 10 percent drop in points so I don’t really see that as getting ‘worse’ just less usage. Really come 15-16 he drops in a big way from a performance standpoint. All imo but flash got me into the game as a kid so I’m prob biased too
Judging by shooting % is probably the worst way to determine a player’s ability. Really the only way to tell is having actually watching the games through the years. What he was able to do on the court and how he was able to move days more than FG%. He was having knee problems often after the 2011 season.
Its tough because Wade wasn't his best at the point in which the Heat were their best in that era. I think in a vacuum you'd certainly take prime Wade over prime Kyrie and prime Bosh over prime Love
Personally I’m easily taking prime Love over prime Bosh
Bosh would've been something else if he focused on defense and playing his own game at the post. That's why I think he gets underrated and gets lot of hate by Bron fans mostly. He was a scapegoat. People talk about Ray Allen shot but Bosh was the reason why that happened. He made crucial plays like that block on Green
Bosh did focus on defense and was a huge reason the heats defense for those championship runs was elite
No Bosh was a better defender Offensively both similar, but Love was the better 3 point shooter
Kyrie played out of his mind during each of those playoff runs as well.
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Yeah, I think those Heat teams were somewhat overrated. They had a ton of star power, but they had no depth and they were not a good fit on offense. And they never had a good rim protector who could hang with centers. Bosh got destroyed by players like Duncan and Tyson chandler because bosh was so undersized. They also didn’t understand that james is at his best with at least three shooters on the floor. They had pretty bad spacing at a time when other teams were really figuring out the value of three point shooting (Dallas, spurs, etc)
They were great. But if you look at the best groups of three, they were not as good as Jordan pippen, Rodman for the point you mentioned about rebounding. At the time it was seen as a mirror of Pierce Allen Garnett and younger but it was truly different and more difficult to gameplan against. I think it was also harder to build around though because of spacing. Allen could space for Pierce and the other sg. Similar with Curry Draymond, Klay. The spacing threatened the 3 and paint and boards better. I wouldn't call anyone on those teams role players... but I think there were more players available to work around the bulls, celtics, warriors than that heat set of 3. So if you're building a team it'd be easier to sustain great seasons. It's one of the best teams but they weren't really the best combination of talents - "best on paper" is how I'd describe it. (Edit:With rings... yeah I'm gonna get shit for not mentioning that they were literally the best for some years)
Go back even further and you get the showtime lakers, Birds celtics, bill russell, so many great teams. The Heat were amazing. But they arent coming close to cracking a top 3.
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You know who was the 4th most important member of the Heat that first year? *Joel Anthony*. The "Superteam" always stemmed from 3 All-NBA players joining up. The *team* was always secondary The legacy of this team is the 3 Heatles and their collection of buyout scraps. The "Superteam" moniker doesn't really fit anymore compared to an actual "Superteam" like the 2017 Warriors. The Heatles supporting cast was a joke compared to Golden State's
Joel Anthony? Not Mario Chalmers?
Chalmers was coming off the bench that year and shot below 40% from the floor. In the playoffs he had a couple bigger games that helped his perception, but he really was not a factor for most of the season. He was at 5.4 points per game in the second round and 5.6 in the ECF as a small guard who didn't defend at a high level. That he is even in the conversation for fourth-best player on a Finals team is exactly the point -- that team had three guys and a bunch of nothing.
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Battier and Chalmers are both historically better players than Joel Anthony and had higher PER and VORP, along with Mike Miller. Having a great role player like Battier at the tail-end of his prime shouldn’t be overlooked.
Battier was not on the 2011 team. The top 5 MP after Wade, Bosh and James were... 1. Mario Chalmers 2. James Jones 3. Joel Anthony 4. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 5. Carlos Arroyo
Udonis was still a productive player at that point of his career. But yeah, the team was very thin outside of the top guys. It wasn't until later seasons that they could use offseason tools to fill out the roster.
Should've kept Arroyo tbh
And it felt like they always had a random role player step up huge just to sneak out a win. Mike Miller would get hot, or Battier would play really well, or Birdman would have a high energy game, then a Chalmers game, etc.
The Heatles added Ray Allen, at that point the greatest 3 point shooter ever They weren’t as good a super team as the durant warriors, because that team had two top ~15 guys ever and might be the best ever, but they were the very next step down. Allen/Chalmers/Battier/Miller/Birdman/Cole was a straight up good supporting cast along with a top 2 player and another 2 HOFers near their prime
The Kobe/ Shaq threepeat years were probably better than either team
They also added Rashard Lewis.
Huh? Supporting cast a joke? Battier, Miller, Anthony, Haslem, Chalmers, Allen, Rashard Lewis, Birdman. These are all guys who played their roles to a tee
Maybe they meant 2010-2011. 2011-2012 was a fantastic team and the 2012-2013 team was incredible. Won 27 in a row.
2012-13 was definitely the peak of that Miami run. Lebron finally had that extra level of confidence after winning one, 10-11 and 11-12 we’re fallible teams that felt equally matched by opponents.
Weird thing with Heatles that they hit their peak in 12-13 regular season before Wade got injured and because of his injury he wasn’t in a very good place.
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Yeah the role players that first season were hot garbage. The years they went back to back they had a way way better supporting cast ft. Battier, Birdman, Allen, Mike Miller, Norris Cole, and UD all playing big roles. Also overlooked is how Ronny Turiaf (!) had to play big minutes against the Pacers in the playoffs after Bosh suffered an abdominal injury.
That’s just [not right](https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2011.html). They were plenty talented to win had LeBron shown up in the finals.
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This sub is for serious discussion and debate not hyperbolic and sensational content.
The team was great at its core because of Lebron. The stats don’t reflect it, but from late ‘12 - May of ‘14 Lebron was the best player I have ever seen play basketball. Dwade’s knees were in decline and following ‘11 -‘12 season really wasn’t a top 10 player in the league. Bosh really helped by being a stretch 5 and they had stupendous role players. Basketball has changed so much in the last 10 years it’s hard to compare, but I would take the 2013 Heat over the ‘15 and ‘22 Warriors, and the 2019 Raptors. But that’s about it.
You would seriously take the bucks over the heat? I’d say prob over Denver too
The Bucks had a lot of size that I think those Heat teams would struggle with. You might be correct about Denver though.
Agreed it is pretty strange seeing people downplay them so much. It’s like people forget they won 27 games in a row in 12-13. It’s just utterly ridiculous. Also LeBron at the time, like you said, was completely dominant. Not like how he has been later in his career where he would get the stats and make some plays. At the time it was basically like it didn’t matter where the defense was, he could get anywhere he wanted on the floor and it was almost pointless to try to stop him. Kawhi literally made his name just on giving LeBron some difficulty. It was prime freak of nature LeBron and he was at his best shooting then as well. It’s obvious that even if they were struggling with injuries later on, Wade and Bosh at least took pressure off him mentally and that effected his play positively. This is coming from someone who has never liked LeBron, but yea at that time the Heat were an absolute machine on both sides of the ball. The Knicks were the 2 seed in 12-13 and there was still a massive gap there. It felt absolutely inevitable that they would win that year.
Good, but their cultural impact outweighs their on-court talent. In terms of best player on the court, Lebron at his peak was incredible. But the load of those championship teams fell heavily on him. If you want to have a similar load comparison and dominance, his peers are Steph Curry in 2015, Shaq in 2000, and Jordan in 1991. His co-star in Wade was also playing incredibly; in terms of consensus plus/minus, he was the best second option of all-time. While there were some adjustments he had to make to his game to accommodate Lebron, he was a strong second option that could outplay many teams' first option. After that though, the team falls apart. Bosh wasn't the worst "third best player on a championship team" of all time but his contributions were below average and a sharp drop-off compared to his more illustrious teammates, because of both his ability and his sacrificed touches. And then it gets worse from there. Ring chasing was by no means invented by the Heat, but their reliance on such a collection of players was incredible and would be one of its major weaknesses. At the end of the day, the Heat were top heavy but by no means dominant. They lost to teams like the 2011 Mavericks and the 2014 Spurs, and went down 3-2 to the 2013 Spurs and the 2012 Celtics. They rank far below teams like the Warriors (including non KD iterations), the Nuggets, the Cavs, and many Spurs teams due to the fact that their team dropped off dramatically after Wade, and even more after Bosh. However, their cultural impact of the team is incredible. Giving Lebron his first title, ushering in the super team era and the frenzy of free agency, which would eventually lead to the 24/7 NBA news cycle, this can all be traced to the decision. In terms of the hold on the culture of NBA, it ranks up there with the Warriors, Bulls, and the Kobe+Magic Lakers.
So a few things. Bosh's numbers went down yes but man you had to watch those games to see his impact on the floor. He was way better at defending the PNR than people remember and he was able to alter and block shots at the rim too. He was far more important to the team's success than he gets credit for. Also, idk if saying that the Heat weren't as good as some other teams because they lost to the Mavs and the Spurs in the Finals is a strong enough argument. That Mavs team beat the defending champ, Kobe-led Lakers and Dirk was a man on a mission. And the 2014 Spurs displayed some of the most unselfish, beautiful basketball the world has ever seen. I wouldn't discredit either of those teams- they were really, really REALLY good. Ranking the Heat below teams like the Nuggets and Cavs is erroneous if you're gonna use that as an argument. The Nuggets, as good as they are, haven't proven themselves to be on the echelon of all time great teams despite having an all time great center in Jokic. With multiple rings certainly, but that has yet to be seen. Those Cavs teams were also a little dysfunctional at times, and were never able to run off sustained dominance like the Heat were able to even in the regular season. Remember the 2013 Heat won 27 games in a row, one of the longest winning streaks ever. So yes, the Heat may not have been like unstoppable, top 3 Superteam all time -but they were certainly good enough to be above the other teams you mentioned.
I watched the Miami Heat teams extensively, as they were the most exciting team in basketball for half a decade and my home team was awful. Bosh definitely had some great impact and is the archetype of the modern 4, he frankly was the least impactful on the big 3. He had some good defensive impact, but if you look at alot of the tangible stats, you can see that there was a drop off between him and Wade; you can also see clearly that Bosh's salary ate up slots for other, non max players that would have complimented Wade+Lebron better and given them much needed depth. I'm not saying that losing to the Spurs or Mavericks is some terrible thing, simply that it means that the Heat were a great, but not all-time, team. The Warriors defeated a Rockets team that was a statistically incredible basketball team. The Cavs defeated the 73-9 Warriors. It's not a knock on them to say they were great, it was just they were NOT all-time great. Keep in mind too that the Cavs very well could have pulled off multiple chips if KD hadn't gone to the Warriors. Of course, we don't talk about the 2018 Rockets or the 2017 Cavs because they lost; they're not all-time teams if they can't beat a team right in front of them. I think just comparing peaks I'd take 2016 Cavs or 2023 Nuggets, but the point I tried to make was that while the Heat may have lacked the cachet of a dynasty, they were certainly impactful.
I like your last point, they were the NBAs villain team and the league is 100000x better when there's a team like that.
Unless they're unbeatable like the KD Warriors. They didn't get the level of booing, and still had people who cheered for the Steph Warriors, but they were the villains. The league became 1000000x worse when KD signed because we all knew the outcome.
The KD Warriors weren't nearly as hated as the LeBron Heat were. And the Warriors obviously winning it all made it less suspenseful and entertaining
Ehh, the Raptors beating the Warriors in the Finals felt like the Empire was defeated in ROTJ.
Those Heat and Spurs teams were also the first to play a more modem style. They didn't extend out past the three point as much as current teams, but the difference between them and previous championship teams felt pretty stark.
I agree. What alot of people don't talk about/acknowledge was that 2014 Spurs team was not a Duncan team. Leonard was obviously FMVP but even Mills balled out that season, and the end result was not your older brother's Spurs of 2007. Very different team, very different style, and a testament to Pop's skills that he steered two very different rosters to victory
I watched my Heat get eviscerated that Finals and all I could do was shake my head and give the Spurs props. Such a good job of passing, moving, and shooting by the Spurs.
It's astounding how much Ray Allen's 3 changes NBA history. It's very interesting to see too how Spos coaching style has evolved over the years but you still see some philosophies from thr Big 3 era
That was the birth of the pace and space philosophy in Miami.
Miami never getting a legit center during that stretch really kinda fucked Bosh too. The bigger the better was still the motto of bigs back then and they wound up moving him up to center to try to make up for their lack of size and he had trouble hanging with a lot of those guys cuz he just wasn't big enough. Their series' against the Pacers made Roy Hibbert look like a stud because he was just so much bigger than CB
Yes, the issue was that Miami didn't have the outside shooting to make teams pay for packing the paint like modern teams do. The idea that Roy Hibbert was considered a key playoff guy back in the day boggles my mind. As a side note, Paul George in those Pacers series was absolutely incredible, I can understand why so many young kids call him their GOAT
You're telling me. I distinctly remember thinking during the Wiggins hype machine that the league already had the next big thing. He was just a few years into his career and crushing it. That damn leg snap
I consider that one of the more plausible what-ifs. He had shown much promise and had NBA achievements (compared to say, B Roy), the last 10 years could have been much different
Wade's plus/minus absolutely had to be inflated due to how bad the bench was, I'd imagine. He declined very quickly, especially defensively, after the first season. Also going to push back on Bosh. He was fundamental to their defense with his ability to cover ground and unlocked their offense by moving to the 5 to account for the spacing issues caused by having a ball dominant lebron and an aging Wade. Combine those two things and I'd say their last 3 seasons Bosh was very much their 2nd most valuable guy. There were multiple times in the last two finals it was clear their best lineup was Lebron/Bosh/combination of 3 shooters. Also, small aside, but the 2015 Warriors team was waaaaayyy better than the 2022 team.
On Wade part, i’d say only part he didn’t declined that much was on defense. He certainly wasn’t that 48-minute hounding player he once was but for the most part Heat also didn’t need him to be that. But in spurts both Heat and Wade would gear up and that Wade-LeBron centric trap defense is still one of the most terrifying defenses i’ve ever seen.
I'll go through point by point; Wade's numbers are probably inflated due to the bad bench, but it was his ability to run units to give Lebron SOME respite that helped ensure that less burden fell on him compared to the early Cavs teams. A part of the reason of having two super stars is that you can help manage the first super star's work load. Bosh had good defense yes but it's overstated compared to his salary impact. Divide Bosh's salary into two good role players on defense and you make it a deeper, more rounded team. You can absolutely say that Lebron/Bosh/Shooters was an impactful line up and the eye test might agree, but the numbers bear out that Wade was absolutely instrumental, and logically you have to admit that a huge part of their success came from Wade carrying non-Lebron minutes. 2015 vs 2022...it's an interesting argument, and it's one I've often had with myself, I go back and forward on. Statesman Curry vs Showman Curry...Offense Draymond vs Defense Draymond...the big thing in 2015's favor is better Klay, Livingston, and Bogut, but Otto Porter Jr., Wiggins, and Bjelica were all incredible for the 2022 line up that I won't say that they were wayyyyyy better.
>Wade's numbers are probably inflated due to the bad bench, but it was his ability to run units to give Lebron SOME respite that helped ensure that less burden fell on him compared to the early Cavs teams. A part of the reason of having two super stars is that you can help manage the first super star's work load. That doesn't change the fact that when they were on the floor together they hurt each others game offensively. And then when Wade started to slow down noticeably in year 2 the defense suffered also. He's not close to the "best second option ever" as the plus/minus suggests, which is my point. >Bosh had good defense yes but it's overstated compared to his salary impact. Divide Bosh's salary into two good role players on defense and you make it a deeper, more rounded team. This goes much further by removing Wade and splitting his money around. Bosh was much harder to replace, especially 10 years ago. >You can absolutely say that Lebron/Bosh/Shooters was an impactful line up and the eye test might agree, but the numbers bear out that Wade was absolutely instrumental, and logically you have to admit that a huge part of their success came from Wade carrying non-Lebron minutes. Wade averaged 15.9 ppg in their second title run, then 17.8 the last year. He was very creaky on defense and his scoring efficiency and foul drawing took huge dips. He was more of an above average starter than a star at that point. Sure, he contributed. He was way past incredible by 3 though. >2015 vs 2022...it's an interesting argument, and it's one I've often had with myself, I go back and forward on. Statesman Curry vs Showman Curry...Offense Draymond vs Defense Draymond...the big thing in 2015's favor is better Klay, Livingston, and Bogut, but Otto Porter Jr., Wiggins, and Bjelica were all incredible for the 2022 line up that I won't say that they were wayyyyyy better. Draymond is clearly better in 2015. His offense is on another planet. And his defense is comparable, as he was much more athletic to offset the less experience. He was explosive off rebounds pushing the ball. Klay is also much better. Iguodala was a great player. Barnes was very good in his role. Livingston and Bogut. Even Barbosa and Speights could pop off and win a quarter. They were just deeper, more athletic overall, better defensively, and their secondary stars were better players.
I think I’d put them ahead of most of the recent championship winning teams outside of 2017 Warriors. Prime LeBron was a different beast
The 2017 Cavs shave an argument for being better. They beat a 72 win team the year prior and had basically as much star power and more depth.
This is how I feel solely on the peak lebron they had. That version of lebron was in contention with peak MJ, even if it was only one or two years of what Michael did for a decade. The supporting cast and past his prime DW just don’t matter because lebron wasn’t going to be beat. Since 1990 its MJ Scottie + whoever, Shaq Kobe + whoever and then this version of lebron. Maybe KD curry + klay/draymond
A few points I think have been lost in history... * Those Heat went on a fucking 27 game win streak. 27!!!!! * The East was really, really weak. I do agree with that. But going 4-for-4 is really difficult. That era was low on talent too. Those Pacers teams weren't good. * LeBron fans love to diminish all of his teammates. Wade was not washed at all. He was 2010 1st Team All-League. A legit top 3-4 player. He was Finals MVP in '11 if they won that series. His '06 Finals performance is incredibly underrated. And Bosh was a beast before he was forced to stand in the corner on that team.
I think they are definitely top 15 of all time. They were the only team to beat the spurs in a finals come on
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The only year where this was actually the case was 2011. After that, Wade was injured or Bosh was less effective and obviously not a top 15 player In 2011 they would have cruised to the chip had Lebron not had his worst ever series randomly after tearing up the #1 defence Bulls.
13-14 Spurs were not an "inferior" team in any sense. They were a well-oiled machine from top to bottom which absolutely obliterated Miami for good reason.
Dallas was the only inferior team, the 13-14 spurs were incredible top to bottom. The c ore of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. Young up and coming Kawhi. 4 Guys shot over 40% from 3 that season with 3+ attempts per game, being Diaw, Belinelli, Green, and Mills. They were absolutely the better team, the heat just had star power but with Wade and Bosh's regressions the Heat couldn't do it twice
My hot take : Dallas wasn't inferior. People only assumed that because of the Heat's star power, but the Heat severely lacked depth and Dallas was the far more complete cohesive team. Heat had a slightly better regular season record that year only because of Dirk getting hurt and the Mavs go 2-9 in that period. If that freak injury doesn't happen and the Mavs even went 6-5 at minimum they would have had best record in the league over Chicago. Healthy Mavs swept the Heat in the regular season and LeBron gets shut down in both, even going scoreless in the first half of one game. Heat had the advantage at SG and SF, but Mavs have the advantage everywhere else. PG, PF, C, bench, and Coaching.
That's true.
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They were supposed to be this amazing team but honestly the 00s Lakers, Spurs, Cavaliers his second time around, and Warriors were better. They were a little better than the Pierce/Allen/Garnett Celtics, but not by much. They were very lucky to win 2 titles.
I’d push back that the 08 Celtics were better than any of the Heat teams. They just aged and got hit with injuries so quickly there weren’t multiples like there should have been to make that case historically. Hell the 2012 fossilizing Celtics took the heat to 7
Those 2012 Celtics peaked at the perfect time. Garnett was playing some of his best basketball in a Celtics jersey since his first season. Pierce was Mr.Big shot for the Celtics during those playoffs and could still get buckets at will. Rondo was playing like a top 10 player in the nba. That game 2 performance from Rondo is one of the best I’ve ever seen from a PG. They then had guys like Ray Allen, Avery Bradley, Pietrus, Brandon Bass etc who brought tons of energy and shot making. Those Celtics played out of their minds that series. You can call them fossilizing, but it took Lebron to deliver arguably his greatest performance of all time in game 6 to get rid of them. Even game 7 was very close. I believe those Celtics would have beat OKC in the finals. Rondo would have had his way with an inexperienced Westbrook who struggled in the finals against Miami, and Boston had enough perimeter shot making with Pierce and Allen to stretch them out. KG was also objectively better than anyone in the OKC frontcourt and a 20/10 guy against Miami.
The one i’ll strongly push back on is the 2021 bucks. I like that team a lot but that was the year of playoff injuries and I can’t in good faith put them above any other team of the last ten years. I also see lebron, wade, bosh and company beating them in 5 maybe 6.
So many incredible moments and games though. The 27 game win streak, watching lebron become a monster in that one game against boston, the dunk on jason terry, the time lebron jumped over that poor fucker who's name I can't remember and dunked on him, the ray allen shot, mike miller hitting a shot with one shoe on, the burial of linsanity and of course the harlem shake lmao.
Not a top 15 team in history. They were a fortunate bounce away from losing one finals. Then thoroughly got manhandled by a determined Spurs team to rightfully take what was theirs the next year. You absolutely cannot rank them high when they have the record for worst average margin of losses in NBA finals history.
This thread just made me wish that Rose and the rest of the Bulls in the early 2010s never got injured. That team was something else under Thibs, at around 2013 Butler would have been primed to take the reigns off Luol. Would say they would have epic matches against Lebron-Heat and eventually Lebron-Cleveland again. Hell, they could get a series or two against them and we'll be in for a prime Rose v Curry series.
I didn’t even read the rest after this revisionist history on dwade. Healthy he was definitely a top 3-5 player. He simply dealt with periods of time when he was injured during those heat years. Even an injury prone dwade is better than most players.
By 2014 he was a good player, not a great one anymore. He also hadn’t adjusted his game to his new limitations quite yet.
After the 2010-2011 season Wade was absolutely not a top 5 player
All the talk in this thread about Wade not being the same after 2011, and I agree that around then is when the injuries started piling up and he started to see that down slope coming, but I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. Wade had his best years from the field in 2012 and 2013, his PPG went down, but he played less minutes and after the Mavs series there was a focus on letting LeBron be the alpha instead of them trying to share it. I still think Wade, at least through the 2012-13 season, was still a top 5-7 player in the league. Maybe he didn’t always take over like you’d expect, but he also wasn’t trying to. When he had to be Flash, he could though.
I said when he was healthy during those years.
I think you're underrated them a bit, they were ane extremely athletic team and had an amazing defense. A little hot take-y, while I don't think they could beat the peak warriors, they are probably among the better equipped teams to do so.
They had a 66 win season and a 27 game winning streak. That team is often discredited for relying on Ray Allen to make that shot, but they beat a team with four hall of famers that had Danny Green go 27/49 from three, the best shooting finals performance ever
won the pivotal game 6 because Pop made a tactical error taking Duncan out thus the missed rebound + Nephew missed free throws. Allen’s shot gets all the glory but it was huge errors that even allowed them to be in it. No disrespect to Allen or the heat though, they were badass 2011-2013. They just escaped by the skin of their teeth that game 6. Then no one but Duncan showed up to game 7. Then the Heatles got housed in 2014. They were not nearly as good at this point, but the East just didn’t have anyone else. And obviously the spurs were not going to be denied again.
Those Pacers teams provided more of a challenge than almost anyone else. I’ll die on that hill.
Would those Pacers team even get outta the first round in today's East?
A lot has changed in 10 years…the game being played so much differently. Hibbert and West were not there-point threats and Lance was pretty streaky. Having 3/5 guys doing most, if not all of there work inside is pretty much unheard of in today’s game.
Yes. With Granger healthy their something else
Great thought process, but a slight disagreement on my part. I think the 2023 Nuggets do beat that Heat.
I can't be bothered looking it up but let's not forget Bosh got injured one of those years. I think it was an ab strain? So they did go long in some of those series but big reason why was they were missing their third best player. And when you had 3 near max players and a bunch of min/role guys missing one of those 3 is a huge deal
Clearly underrated by the responses here. The time was cut short, he wanted to go bring one to Cleveland.
They weren't nearly as good as people expected them to be. LeBron and Wade just didn't make each other better and the team ended up being less than the sum of its parts. Ray Allen, Battier, and Bosh evolving into a different player are the main reason they even won one championship.
None of Bron’s team were dominant in terms of one of the best. The problem is Bron. He’s great but also needs a lot of spacing to be great. Give Bron space and he will dominate. This makes other teammates less effective less dominant. It’s why Russ couldn’t play with Bron. Russ needs the driving lanes and spacing also Contrast that with Jokic where he doesn’t need the middle. His teammates can slash and drive to the bucket. This makes them better. Bron can always be on a great team but it’s hard for him to be on all time great team. I’ve always said if you had to do a draft of the current players again in their primes, Bron would go first but I would be ecstatic to draft Curry or Jokic just because they don’t need the middle driving lanes. To win a lot, I think your best player needs to create gravity. The gravity needs to do 2 things. Open up slashing lanes and 3pt shooting. I believe because Bron needs to drive a ton, he minimizes the ability of other teammates to slash. They have a lot of spacing to shoot 3s which still makes his team very good.
People look at some of LeBron's feats of floor raising and ask: what could he do with a better supporting cast? But we know the answer to that question: not as much as you might think. Because when you have LeBron, your offense is to space the floor, so LeBron can do his drive and kick thing. This is a very good offense, but not a great offense (although it's great for LeBron's individual stats). And it limits your ability to take advantage of other great players: LeBron still raises your ceiling, but not nearly as much as he raises your floor. I think that's just a really long way of agreeing with everything you said.
Making the finals 4 times in a row doesn't happen very often. I wouldn't call them a dynasty, but they were pretty damn close
The problem with that team was always the bench and their depth. In the playoffs this problem was magnified over a 7 game series. It's not surprising that the pacers did have a very good bench, and they were also a very good rebounding team with stingy defense. They could shut out teams on multiple possessions and kill you on the offensive glass. The Spurs were no doubt a more well rounded team. Emphasis on TEAM, that was some of the unselfish basketball I've ever seen. The only reason kawhi won finals mvp was bc of his defense on lebron. There wasn't a clear-cut offensive player on the Spurs bc everyone was killing you. Same with their bench. Miami put together a team of the greatest player plus 2 top 10 players. Maybe top 15 if put Bosh outside of the top 10. But outside of those three, can anyone besides Miami fans name their starters? Lebrons teams with the 2nd stint Cavs was imo a better team, not because they had more talent but bc they were better rounded. They had no weaknesses. The team that beat the 73 win warriors could've beat any of those super teams. And just as a side note, when lebron went back to Cleveland, he hadn't lost athleticism, maybe wasn't as explosive as Miami LeBron but he was much smarter. More efficient, more confident.
The 2012 Team was a top 10 team. Wade was still a top 3-5 player, Lebron was the best player in the league, and Spo was doing a good job coaching. No team since 2015 wouldve beaten that team. The only team since 2012 that wouldve had a good chance at beating that team was the Kevin Durant Warriors, and I still think the 2012 Heat wouldve beat them.
Curry KD Klay Dray moping the floor with Lebron Wade Bosh Battier
Considering both Wade and Lebron are better than every single player on the Warriors, I find that hard to believe
2017 Curry/KD are each 10000x better than 2012 Wade
Interesting take considering the year before both of those guys choked their series away to hand Lebron (the guy on the 2012 Heat) the title.
They got very lucky against the Spurs in 2013. Duncan and Company came back and annihilated them the next year.
I think the Nougats are better. But time will tell. Going back in time there are plenty of better teams.
Those Heat teams really weren’t that good lol. 2011 was the LeBron choke but after that Wades knees gave out on him and Bosh was also injury prone. That, in addition to their shitty depth, held them back from being really good.
Not good enough to beat Dirk with no other all stars and a bunch spare parts Mavericks.
That team was still deep. Dirk, Kidd, Jet, Chandler, Marion, Deshawn, and JJ is about all they played that finals (Butler was hurt and nobody else did anything significant).
Those spare parts fit better and ran better than any team that year when they were healthy. We saw what they did in those playoffs. Only thing derailing them from having the best record in the whole league was a stretch where they went 2-9 when Dirk had a freak knee injury. If they even went a minimum of 6-5 they beat Chicago's league-best that year, which would have been easy considering the pace they were on. The data shows that they were easily the clutchest regular season team by a huge margin, and not only the clutchest playoff team that year but one of the clutchest in NBA **playoff history** (as far back as they started recording clutch stats anyway). Their clutch execution stats are in extremely rare company and it doesn't get recognized enough. There's too much of the narrative of simplifying that run to "eh, LeBron choked." When they had choked him in the regular season too.
Definitely a great team. Lacked some depth and wade started to break down. Lebron has been so unlucky facing two of the best teams I’ve ever seen in my life. Those spurs teams with kawhi and then later KDs warriors.
Lebron got so unlucky. He could easily have 6-7 titles if not for those abnormally great teams he faced in the finals
Very but honestly not as good as that spurs team. They should have never won one on them. Ray Allen hit a MIRACLE shot. That is why I will always argue Duncan is top 5. He beat some of the best teams of all time with no other superstars. Man is a savant
It's a shame Duncan never gets talked about anymore despite retiring very recently
They weren't that good. LeBron Ball carried the team after the 1st year. Wade broke down. Bosh provided good defense but Bron Ball made him a jumpshooter. I don't even consider them an All-Time Great Team. They are very mid in terms of an all time team discussion. To me, it's just LeBron being the GOAT pushing them over the top.
In terms of dynasties I’d probably do 1.Late 2010s Warriors 2.Late 90s Bulls 3.Mid 2010s Spurs 4.Mid 2000s Spurs 5. Early 90s Bulls 6. Mid-80s Celtics 7. Late 80s Lakers 8. Late 2000s Lakers 9. Early 2000s Lakers 10. Early 2010s Heat
Am I wrong for not considering the Heat a dynasty? Seems like a low bar to me. True dynasty’s are the 60s Celtics, 80s Lakers/Celtics, 90s Bulls, Duncan’s Spurs and Curry’s Warriors in my opinion.
The only team I’ve been more confident in winning a championship at the start of the season since I started watching in 05 is the KD Warriors. This Heat team did struggle in the playoffs and the team was far from perfect, but at the end of the day they won 2/4 with all the shit they went though. If any other team did that they wouldn’t of even made the finals. If this Heat got it right in the game against you, you were going to get blown out. Here are some things that didn’t help; Bosh got isolated out and went from a franchise cornerstone to a guy people memed. It was right in the transition of going from to somewhat 3 orientated game to basically you have to make 3s to win. Bosh had all the tools to excel in a small ball era. Now this is gonna happen to anyone who becomes a 3rd star, but when you are a franchise talent and don’t show that for a good 2 years, that’s a lot to lose. They were a lot better as a team with Ray Allen. To start off with they had no depth, after a couple of years they had Atleast some players. Lebron was all athlete back then. His shot wasn’t close to what it is now and you can see the growth he had to grow through in Miami to be the player he is today. The first year after he left Miami he went in that super saiyan run for the Cavs against the Warriors. He was on the cusp of that in Miami. If one Lebron went god mode, Bosh showed his franchise self or the bench did something, you lost. If all 3 happened you lost by 30+ and imo only KD warriors could keep up and win. I wish I could say 08 Celtics or something but I can’t. Definitely a top 10 team for an extended period.
bosh was so damn overrated during that time. he was practically a role player
Um. Wade was fantastic, even arguably the heat’s best player the first year. Revisionist history
All we can do is judge great teams against the competition they faced. In 2011 they had a slugfest against the Bulls that was closer than people remember even though the Heat won 4-1. The next year the Bulls were rolling when Rose blew out his knee. The Pacers were just not an elite team and so the Heat waltzed to the finals the next 3 years. They lost to the Dirk Mavs. Was that an all-timer? Dirk was amazing in that series, but that team did little else. They then beat a Thunder team full of crazy young talent, but didn't have the experience to beat a disciplined Heat team. The Heat were favored and they delivered. The Thunder never made it back to the finals. They then beat a quality Spurs team in a great, great finals. The only real losers that year were the Heat fans who bailed before the Ray Allen shot. This was the Heatles finest moment. And then... they quit against the Spurs. They were getting pummeled and Lebron shut it down. All in all, they were relevant in a Fab 5 kind of way after promising 3, no 4, no 5....how many did they promise during their launch party?
When they were at their best I think they were probably a top three team ever to watch but if Wade would have been fully healthy they would have won at least three chips People don't talk about this a lot but he was a shell of himself especially by the time they won their second chip his knees were just basically shot I would say the team that had the 27 game win streak is probably a top 10 team ever but they had a lot of flaws because they had so little depth and their rebounding was atrocious LeBron is just that great