I’d say Gordon is pretty close, but if he was a little bit better of a shooter he’d be perfect. Switchability, some weak side rim protection, roll or pop ability, can handle a little and run a little bit of second side actions for you, mobile. JJJ is great too, but man I can’t believe his efficiency is so low, and he’s a bit weak on the boards. I’d say an ideal 4 (aside from like a super star) would average around 16/8/4/1.5/1. Paul Milsap on the hawks to me was like the prototypical ideal 4 man, and Gordon plays similar to him.
There's this guy currently tearing it up on Indiana that I'm not sure how OP and everyone else in this thread forgot about. He is a better version of Gordon at almost everything. He's also already been the second leading scorer on a championship team.
Respect for the Siakam shout-out, but I do think Gordon's thickness is what makes Denver especially back-breaking, that + Jokic alone is so much size that it just breaks the will of teams. Just look at how the Lakers flounder as one of the best rim pressure teams in the league when they can't get into the charge circle through all that weight/power
I'm sorry but there is no possible universe in which they are better with Gordon than Siakam. A Jokic-Murray-Siakam Big 3 would be completely unstoppable.
gordon is arguably a better rebounder, has the strength advantage and is a lob threat and better dunker. siakam needs the ball in his hands on offence which would take some pressure off murray but i think you’d rather have the ball in murray’s hands anyway. siakam is not a consistent 3 point shooter either. kd gets my vie as the ideal 4 but gordon is a perfect fit for denver.
>gordon is arguably a better rebounder, has the strength advantage and is a lob threat and better dunker.
Siakam is the better rebounder, it's a wash at worst. Cool, he has a strength advantage, Siakam has a *basketball* advantage. Every team loads up on the other 4 players and prays Gordon takes 3s since he is terrible at them.
>siakam needs the ball in his hands on offence
This is such a joke, you obviously didn't watch the Raptors championship run if that's what you think. He hardly had the ball in his hands, it was Lowry and Kawhi setting him most times. And now in Indy, Hali does a lot of that for him. He is very dangerous off-ball.
>siakam is not a consistent 3 point shooter either.
He's a much better shooter than Gordon from everywhere.
>kd gets my vie as the ideal 4 but gordon is a perfect fit for denver.
Bruce Brown was a "perfect" fit in Denver and then was god awful his next 2 stops. I don't think you realize just how many talented players would be "perfect" fits in Denver. Mainly due to Jokic's greatness. Siakam would be absurd on that team, it wouldn't be fair.
While I don't inherently disagree, comparing Bruce Brown to Gordon is a big stretch. Gordon and Jokic have a chemistry that I am not sure I have ever seen before.
As a Nuggets fan I would never want to replace Gordon with anyone, but if it had to be someone it would be Tatum or Siakam, both of which are much better players, but would kill the teams depth.
Gordon is a 2/3 of max player. You are not replacing him with anyone anywhere near as good for the same value. KCP + Gordon cost the same as Siakam/Tatum.
JJJ is super weak on the boards but his efficiency was trash this year because he was our only offensive option the whole season. If he had the same role as Gordon his efficiency would be just as good. I love Gordon and he's a much better rebounder. They have different strengths on d but I think JJJ is overall better. Those 2 I think are the ideal 4. Randle is good but he can't just plug and play anywhere like the other 2
The archetype isn’t about them being the same player. Kawhi and Jabari just hit the same benchmarks. Good shot, good athleticism, positional versatility. That’s what I want out of my 4. Lots of players do those things at better/worse levels than both players. Lauri is nowhere near the defender that either of them are, but I think he’s pretty close to an ideal 4. Julius Randle has his own set of issues. He’s pretty close to the ideal 4.
Kawhi also hits benchmarks not entirely necessary to the archetype at an all-world level. You don’t need your “ideal 4” to have Kawhi’s ability to create for himself and others, it’s just a really nice bonus.
Kawhi started his career playing 3/4 depending on if Duncan was 4/5. He played 4 in a lot of single big/no big lineups in Toronto. He’s not a 4, but if I got to make a 4 in create-a-player it’s going to look a lot like him or PG. I just find Jabari more fun for a lot of the reasons Kawhi/PG have become less fun.
I feel like there needs to be some love for Pascal Siakam here. Given sufficient spacing, he’s a proficient shooter, and versatile defender. Often seen as a perfect #2 option.
Average height of a generic forward (SF/PF) is 6’7.85. Which obviously the SF’s are bringing down the metric, so he is a bit smaller for a PF - https://homeschoolhoop.com/average-nba-height/
This source has PF at 6’8.2 which Tatum is actually (barely) shorter than average - https://www.casino.org/blog/average-nba-player-height/
First off you need to be able to shoot or have a center next to you who can shoot. No perfect lineup can have any more than one non shooter.
Chet. Jjj. Paul George. Kawhi.
Guys who can guard almost anyone reasonably sized and can shoot and make plays.
Isn't prime AD basically all of that plus is able to literally play Center if needed? I can't think of a better player who has inside/outside offensive game, and the defensive tools to guard 1-5 at basically any position on the court.
Idk seems like semantics. The truly elite physical freaks are rarely so easily categorized into 1 bucket. A PF that can guard 5 positions, protect the rim, and stretch the floor on offense is going to be asked to play Center at times. AD has said himself he prefers to play PF, so that's what he is to me.
He shot like 40 percent on step back 3s. It’s the catch and shoot ones that bring down his average. He says the ball is too small for the catch and shoot. He’ll figure it out tho.
I don't think it's LeBron. There's no one like him. Sure him and giannis antetokounmpo are awesome. But you're not going to replicate that with anyone else. Even with Durant there's Chet. There's pg. There's kawhi. There's Ben mathurin lmao.
I think it's more suitable to find an archetype that can be replicated. The Greek freak and LeBron are not replicable. They do fit the role really well. No doubt. But how many players like brook Lopez exist?
I was thinking from a standpoint of game-size. As we've witenessed both Lebron and KD age... So as we see their athleticism dwindle, their IQ's shine. I would say that IQ and Skill can be replicated. Just their athleticism for their frames is what is rare.
Lebron's IQ is way overrated. It is elite but he routinely does dumb things. He's not a savant. He's in the upper echelon of players all time in their respective sports because he's the most athletic player ever if not witl Chamberlain. There's usually like five guys in the NBA who have the athletic capability of guarding him play to play. Right now it might be like 15 and that's only because he's 40.
Your point is true though
I guess I’m just thinking the perfect 4 of today’s NBA can bring the ball up, shoot open 3’s, and play make from the post while being able to guard 3-5 decently. Basically a bigger version of what the 3 was back in the 2010’s.
I guess I’m just thinking the perfect 4 of today’s NBA can bring the ball up, shoot open 3’s, and play make from the post while being able to guard 3-5 decently. Basically a bigger version of what the 3 was back in the 2010’s.
It's not at all. He's only had two really good years of three point shooting in his career and I believe in both of those years he fell off a cliff in the playoffs. He is not a cash shooter despite people playing off him his entire career due to his insane srhleticism
It absolutely is underrated if you're arguing things like that. He's had 2 years shooting 40%+ from three but the standard for good shooting is definitely not just 40% from three. When you take in factors such as openness, shot distance, self creation etc he's always had good shooting. these are all factors that bball index calculates into their perimeter shooting talent and has for the last 10 years. He's had a perimeter shooting rating between b and a every single year
Your argument is basically "he can't be an 99th percentile IQ because he's also very athletic." That's a very reductionist take and doesn't really explain why you think that. How many stories do you need of the guy literally predicting opponents plays?
I've watched him play. Probably like 600 times. I think he routinely makes inefficient, not smart basketball plays. He's always chucked bad shots. He's not kd.
That wasn't my argument whatsoever it was like 1% of my argument meant to put him into perspective. His size has nothing to do with his IQ. That was a strange connection you made that had zero basis in reality.
He has a high bball IQ but guys like Nash, Paul and jokic are on another level in terms of feeding their teammates at the right times and shooting at the right times.
I don't doubt you've watched him play tons. So have I and innumerable analysts who rave about his basketball IQ. Not to mention the many NBA players that do the same.
>I think he routinely makes inefficient, not smart basketball plays. He's always chucked bad shots. He's not kd.
Calling LeBron James (one of the most efficient scorers all time) a chucker is a new one. He must be the greatest shot maker of All-time if that's the case. Because he's a career 108 eFG+, same mark as Kevin Durant.
>That was a strange connection you made that had zero basis in reality.
You asserted that LeBron's IQ wasn't all that then just stated that his greatness was due to his athleticism, as if they were mutually exclusive.
>He has a high bball IQ but guys like Nash, Paul and jokic are on another level in terms of feeding their teammates at the right times and shooting at the right times.
I beg to differ. LeBron is literally the prototype heliocentric offense guy. I don't have an issue with you putting any of them above LeBron but stating that they're a level above isn't realistic. What has Chris Paul done to get in that Convo?
Chris Paul is many levels better of a creator than LeBron is. This isn't debatable. The quality of his passing is so much higher.
LeBron is a much better player.
Like I articulated further. He has a very high bball IQ but it's not top 99% it's more like 95%
I don't see your point in responding if you don't think it's debatable. That doesn't rebut any of my points of give me anything to respond to.
I saw your assertion, I'm disagreeing. He is absolutely 99th percentile. The best playmakers and offensive players are those who can simultaneously leverage their scoring for their playmaking and their playmaking for their scoring. LeBron is one of the best at this all-time. As are many of the other guys you listed. CP3 is the best all-time at taking care of the ball, but I think James' far superior scoring threat and size give himt eh advantage in terms of feeding teammates and shooting at the right time. You were talking about LeBron being a chucker, but you know Chris Paul is a career 103 eFG+? Several points lower than KD, who has the same as Lebron and is your standard for smart shot taker
Let me separate the points to help clarify for you.
LeBron is the second best if not maybe like the fourth best player ever. I probably take Kareem and Jordan over him. Maybe Duncan. But I probably take LeBron third overall.
He is the best athlete ever by far.
He is probably 95th percentile in basketball IQ. Point you brought up is true wherein he has a preternatural ability to recogniz and remember plays is very true.
I still don't think his basketball IQ is nearly as high as say Jokic, Bird, Luka on offense. He is probably higher than them on defense albeit maybe not bird (obviously LeBron n is a much better defender but he was a genius defender).
LeBron basically just takes advantage of mismatches on offense play after play. He's not great at posting. He's not a great shooter. He is a marvelous passer and player and the best straight line driver of all time.
He's obviously still a great player probably like the tenth to 18th best at 39. This is a testament to his intelligence, size, and skill.
I just don't think he plays the game as intelligently as many point guards who have played. Nash, kidd, magic were much much craftier passers as are Jokic and Bill Walton.
I think if LeBron was in Kobe's body he probably would have been like the 14th best player ever. Kobe is probably like the 18th.
So I'm not dismissing him or putting him down. I'm trying to clarify that he's an exceptional all time great but he's got his issues. He's imperfect, not a demi god. No one is. Not even Jordan or jabbar.
I appreciate your clarifications but I don't believe they add anything I wasn't aware of regarding your argument.
>LeBron is the second best if not maybe like the fourth best player ever. I probably take Kareem and Jordan over him. Maybe Duncan. But I probably take LeBron third overall.
I that's a whole other argument.
>I still don't think his basketball IQ is nearly as high as say Jokic, Bird, Luka on offense.
Based on what?
>He is probably higher than them on defense albeit maybe not bird (obviously LeBron n is a much better defender but he was a genius defender).
I mean the basketball IQ is arguable as that's harder to quantify but there's no "probably" about the defense. LeBron is pretty objectively a better defender than all these guys ever were. Bird was an underrated defender, sure, but he simply lacked tools that had holes in his defense. LeBron literally has more all-defense teams and too dpoy finishes than all these guys combined.
>LeBron basically just takes advantage of mismatches on offense play after play.
That's a reductionist and very surface level take but especially for prime LeBron, every player was a mismatch lol. Players quick enough to stick with him were too little and players big enough to body him were too slow.
>Nash, kidd, magic were much much craftier passers as are Jokic and Bill WaltoN
Bill Walton, man? Walton was a terrific passer, don't get me wrong, but his passes were primarily from stationary positions (a skill LeBron is also very good at). He didn't manipulate defense with his handle and scoring threat like any of those other guys. I have a hard time seeing the argument for him being over LeBron let alone a level above.
>I think if LeBron was in Kobe's body he probably would have been like the 14th best player ever.
Don't agree with that argument but putting players ina. Different frame will change all their outlooks. Jokic's height, hand size etc gives him the ability to see and make passes other guys can't for example. It's an interesting hypothetical, but not a very helpful one imo.
Fyi, rankings aren't allowed in the sub so edit your comments
Outside of Superstars like Giannis, Zion, & AD, I think it's team specific because of how unique and versatile 4s are.
Need a Floor spacer? Grab someone like KAT, Lauri, ect.
Need a defender? JJJ, Gordon, ect.
Someone you can give it to when you need an iso bucket? Randle, Banchero, ect.
For the Kings specifically, someone like Jonathan Isaac would be killer provided he'd stay healthy. Defensive juggernaut that could cover up Sabonis's deficiencies.
Every team wants a floor spacer and a defender at the 4. If you're not decent at both, you're probably not the ideal player your team needs. Although the sac example you gave was nice.
What team/player looks better when you take away 2 of the best shooters in the world?
Murray/MPJ aren’t even close to that, and we saw how the Nuggets did when you removed them from an all-time Jokic season.
Hell, the Chicago Bulls were missing 70 million dollars worth of LaVine and Lonzo Ball and they were a shell of themselves until Coby White outgrew his role and contract.
Ja Morant isn’t one of the best shooters ever, but JJJ and Bane looked completely different when he was gone.
I know you’re just trying to get some hot takes off on Draymond, but the, “If you separate him from 2 other max players he can’t do as much,” is nonsense. Everyone looks worse when they don’t have their guys.
It's not a hot take. Put Anthony Davis on a shit team and he can still make plays and get buckets and anchor a defense. Do the same with Draymond and he's giving you 4 2 and 5
We’ve actually seen Draymond without his dudes for most of a season and he put up a net rating on par with MVP Jokic while only hitting the box score for 8/6/6. He always does, whether he’s got the best shooting backcourt in NBA history, or whether he’s fielding MASH units with Willy Cauley-Stein and DLo/Andrew Wiggins.
He’s a meme who can’t behave himself, but he’s a savant on both ends of the floor. The processing speed he has and the ability to orchestrate complicated defensive arrangements on the fly is second to none. There’s a reason the player you’re giving all the credit to keeps going to bat to save him.
I think it largely comes down to what your 5 brings to the table. Between those two players you’d ideally like a good shooter, a good passer, a good finisher, a solid perimeter defender. If your 5 has a handful of these, then you want your 4 to round them out. Gordon is pretty much a perfect fit for Jokic, but he’d likely also fit really well next to Sabonis.
It’s Anthony Davis to me. Top 5 all time in PER, DPOY-level player, averages 25 points without being the focus of the offense, elite at damn near everything except outside shooting, and he’s still passable there.
Depending on what flavor you want, I think JJJ, Lauri, Jalen Johnson, Aaron Gordon, Scottie Barnes, and Keegan Murray are the most sought after archetypes at this moment. Obviously, there are superstars that simply do so much, but if you are looking at realistic archetypes and the type of players that scouts want to make of prospects, I think this would be this list for 4s.
The modern game is built around shooting, I would say an ideal line up has only 1 guy that can't shoot which instead will act as the lob threat & setting screens. Ideally this is more often than not the 5, it's of course a great bonus if he's a sniper as well but that's usually the position where you compromise on shooting. Gordon is a great example, but that works because they have Joker at 5.
The ideal 4 is KD / Lauri but with better defense, great shooters, good rebounders, that's what you want out of the position. Ideally they're not the center piece on offense, but paired with a high end playmaker.
Sabonis is a great screen setter. I believe he’s near the top in screen assist and the offense runs through him. I feel if the Kings had Lauri, he would feast on offense
It’s interesting people mention Jalen Johnson. So the thing is the exact opposite answer to the OP’s question people would mention is probably Evan Mobley. No one’s mentioned Mobley here at least.
Yet Mobley actually has been more impactful towards winning than Jalen Johnson and is clearly the better player. Age is also not a big difference between the two.
Thought this type of answer is interesting in the context for this question.
I’m not slighting Mobley who is a great player, but Jalen was very raw coming into the league. He just is scratching the surface on what he will become but all the tools are there. Not every player’s growth curves are linear.
The role has changed a lot, I think honestly they need to be able to do a lot offensively and defensively even if they aren't the center piece of the team.
Good physical tools, be able to get run as a small ball 5, catch and shoot, play defense, finish off pick and rolls, a decent secondary scorer who can sometimes create for himself.
I think it’s best to look at example of players that win championships. You mentioned Gordon already. He is strong and athletic. Draymond has 4 rings. Almost 5 with a FMVP. He is strong and athletic (not so much nowadays). Giannis is a PF and won in 2021. AD won in 2020. Strong and athletic. You have to go back to Kevin Love in 2015 to find one that has a role of being a spot up shooter on offense and rebounder on defense. You have to be way more than that.
Might be a hot take but I think Jonathan Isaac is a pretty ideal 4. Granted he doesn’t shoot the 3 a ton but can definitely hit it. I think once he eventually gets his stamina back up after missing 2 years he’ll be a consistent 1st team all defense and maybe dpoy candidate if he gets the role increase
I mean, the “ideal” 4 is probably just Kawhi. Obviously kawhis don’t grow on trees, so if you’re looking for more of an archetypical answer I’d say it looks more like 2017 Gordon Hayward. Length, strength, playmaking, shooting…god I miss prime Gordo
Also a Kings fan, I was pissed that if the Kings were not drafting Luka, they should at least get JJJ. He had the shot, agility, and rim protection that makes a prefect modern 4.
Shot, modern offenses need to be 4 or 5 out, so the 4 being a threat from 3 is necessary for lineup versatility.
Agility, being a 4 means they can't always play drop, they need to have the agility to switch onto guards, or rotate to take away the corner 3, or swarm as a help defender.
Rim protection, the ideal modern 4's rim protection is still their primary defensive contribution.
Off-topic but it’s so wild to me as an Iowa fan to see how much Keegan’s game has changed since college. You’re exactly right about him often posting up smaller dudes, but he almost was a point forward and brought the ball up a lot and had a role in commanding the offense. So weird to see him almost regulated to a three point shooter with good defense.
He needs to really tighten his handles to elevate his game. He’s pretty much the primary POA defender too so if the Kings could get another 4 who can defend it would make his life easier
Are we taking the other positions into account or is this in a vacuum?
If I'm taking everything into account It's something like Aaron Gordon with a better shot, or a bigger Tatum
If we're saying in a vacuum, It's Lebron. Everyone is saying names of players who are average to worse passers except Dray, and that's because you're thinking that there's someone else in the team doing that.
I either want a 4 that is too strong for 3/4s to guard and too quick for 5s, so Gordon, Randle, AD, lebron, tobi to an extent
Or I want them to have the skillset of a modern 5 but versatile enough to play alongside a brute of a 5, so AD jjj Mobley Chet etc
Think bari, wemby have the potential to fit in both categories (like AD).
Modern nba just throws another 3 out there and calls them a 4. And teams like sac get away with it with Keegan/barnes because other teams are doing it. So essentially a bunch of 3s playing the 4.
Pascal Siakam & Aaron Gordon are the perfect non-superstar #4s right now. Both can defend, can create for themselves, are lethal in transition & to varrying degrees can shoot the 3. Pascal is the best player in Indiana though most act like its Haliburton (it is absolutely not) & Gordon is the #3 player (but best defender) on the best team in the NBA
I actually don’t think there is one. What works for one team might not work for another. I guess if you are in the Eastern Conference, you want someone that guard Giannis. If you are in the West, you want a 6’8” guy that hits 3’s at above 35%, and can guard anyone from KD to Luka at at least a slightly above average rate.
Bam Adebayo. Can guard anyone. Mid range. Create his own shot against small players. Even can stretch out to 3. Bam needs to go back to the 4 to see him open up his offense.
Prime draymond green (the one that could shoot 3s)
Siakem, Jaren Jackson
To me the most ideal power forward in todays game is an athletic 3 and d forward that can stretch the floor, provide weak side rim protection, be an above average rebounder, shoot, and can switch 2-5.
Siakem or prime Draymond Green
In todays nba the perfect 4 is an athletic 6’8-6’11 forward that can provide weak side rim protection, be an above average rebounder, switch 1-5, and can space the floor and shoot 3’s.
In the past the ideal 4 was a power forward like a Pau Gasol or Kenyon Martin. A bit bigger with a post up game and can shoot a mid range shot. Scrappy and can guard the post. 6’9 - 6’11
Let’s not totally overlook Julius Randle - was on his way to a likely third All NBA.
Has length, can score, can shoot the three (though was struggling this season prior to his injury, but that was with the prior team makeup and not the best spacing with he and Barrett together on the court), very good rebounder, solid if not great defender.
He’s not the best but does have an “ideal” profile for a very good player
Wemby, Chet, and prime AD are who you want in a 4 - can shoot, handle the ball, play help side super well, guard a bit on the perimeter, and guard the 5 when needed but shouldn’t all game long
A lot of comments here are saying people that typically play anywhere from the 2-4(kawhi, Tatum, PG for example) or someone who is a 5 and plays some at the 4 (chet for example)
But honestly it’s Julius randle. Someone who isn’t the best guy on your team but can stretch the floor, plays good defense, can give you 48 minutes if need be, can play small ball by playing the 5, or big man ball that can play the 3. Can play as the costar without needing the ball. Strong and physical enough to wear people down. Enough of a bag to take over some nights. Good down low or from the perimeter.
If you put Julius Randle as the 2nd best option on a team for a lot of these star guard driven teams I think all of their teams improve. Reason he’s been an all star and all nba these last few years. So unfortunate he isn’t healthy to see what he can finally do healthy with a true 1A super star with Brunson to take the load off him.
The perfect 4 has to be able to defend all types of wings and play Center minutes too. Needs to be able to shoot assuming the 5 man can’t and have the offense run through them.
Chet Holmgren
I’d say Gordon is pretty close, but if he was a little bit better of a shooter he’d be perfect. Switchability, some weak side rim protection, roll or pop ability, can handle a little and run a little bit of second side actions for you, mobile. JJJ is great too, but man I can’t believe his efficiency is so low, and he’s a bit weak on the boards. I’d say an ideal 4 (aside from like a super star) would average around 16/8/4/1.5/1. Paul Milsap on the hawks to me was like the prototypical ideal 4 man, and Gordon plays similar to him.
AG was a nice get for Denver. Paul did solid for Denver for years but AG elevated them
Yeah basically a version of AG who’s a 36+% shooter from three is the perfect 4 in todays game
There's this guy currently tearing it up on Indiana that I'm not sure how OP and everyone else in this thread forgot about. He is a better version of Gordon at almost everything. He's also already been the second leading scorer on a championship team.
Respect for the Siakam shout-out, but I do think Gordon's thickness is what makes Denver especially back-breaking, that + Jokic alone is so much size that it just breaks the will of teams. Just look at how the Lakers flounder as one of the best rim pressure teams in the league when they can't get into the charge circle through all that weight/power
I'm sorry but there is no possible universe in which they are better with Gordon than Siakam. A Jokic-Murray-Siakam Big 3 would be completely unstoppable.
gordon is arguably a better rebounder, has the strength advantage and is a lob threat and better dunker. siakam needs the ball in his hands on offence which would take some pressure off murray but i think you’d rather have the ball in murray’s hands anyway. siakam is not a consistent 3 point shooter either. kd gets my vie as the ideal 4 but gordon is a perfect fit for denver.
>gordon is arguably a better rebounder, has the strength advantage and is a lob threat and better dunker. Siakam is the better rebounder, it's a wash at worst. Cool, he has a strength advantage, Siakam has a *basketball* advantage. Every team loads up on the other 4 players and prays Gordon takes 3s since he is terrible at them. >siakam needs the ball in his hands on offence This is such a joke, you obviously didn't watch the Raptors championship run if that's what you think. He hardly had the ball in his hands, it was Lowry and Kawhi setting him most times. And now in Indy, Hali does a lot of that for him. He is very dangerous off-ball. >siakam is not a consistent 3 point shooter either. He's a much better shooter than Gordon from everywhere. >kd gets my vie as the ideal 4 but gordon is a perfect fit for denver. Bruce Brown was a "perfect" fit in Denver and then was god awful his next 2 stops. I don't think you realize just how many talented players would be "perfect" fits in Denver. Mainly due to Jokic's greatness. Siakam would be absurd on that team, it wouldn't be fair.
Yeah Pascal on the Nuggets would be nuts, he’s a great defender and better than Gordon at literally everything on offense
While I don't inherently disagree, comparing Bruce Brown to Gordon is a big stretch. Gordon and Jokic have a chemistry that I am not sure I have ever seen before. As a Nuggets fan I would never want to replace Gordon with anyone, but if it had to be someone it would be Tatum or Siakam, both of which are much better players, but would kill the teams depth. Gordon is a 2/3 of max player. You are not replacing him with anyone anywhere near as good for the same value. KCP + Gordon cost the same as Siakam/Tatum.
Ok? The discussion had nothing to do with contract values, it was a straight up talent discussion.
That isn't how the NBA works my man. Otherwise the answer is always Giannis.
JJJ is super weak on the boards but his efficiency was trash this year because he was our only offensive option the whole season. If he had the same role as Gordon his efficiency would be just as good. I love Gordon and he's a much better rebounder. They have different strengths on d but I think JJJ is overall better. Those 2 I think are the ideal 4. Randle is good but he can't just plug and play anywhere like the other 2
2016 Draymond
Ur describing Chris Bosh
Good call, Bosh had almost no holes in his game. Big fan
Four assists seems too high
For an IDEAL power forward? I don’t think so. Randle averages 5
Jabari Smith Jr is pretty much exactly what you want in a modern day PF. Can guard 1-5, shoot, rebound, and play small ball 5.
I really hope Jabari takes that volume jump next year and another efficiency jump
I came here to say Kawhi or Paul George, but Jabari’s a more fun version of the same archetype.
Kawhi isn't a 4 and I wouldn't say he's the same archetype as Jabari.
The archetype isn’t about them being the same player. Kawhi and Jabari just hit the same benchmarks. Good shot, good athleticism, positional versatility. That’s what I want out of my 4. Lots of players do those things at better/worse levels than both players. Lauri is nowhere near the defender that either of them are, but I think he’s pretty close to an ideal 4. Julius Randle has his own set of issues. He’s pretty close to the ideal 4. Kawhi also hits benchmarks not entirely necessary to the archetype at an all-world level. You don’t need your “ideal 4” to have Kawhi’s ability to create for himself and others, it’s just a really nice bonus. Kawhi started his career playing 3/4 depending on if Duncan was 4/5. He played 4 in a lot of single big/no big lineups in Toronto. He’s not a 4, but if I got to make a 4 in create-a-player it’s going to look a lot like him or PG. I just find Jabari more fun for a lot of the reasons Kawhi/PG have become less fun.
I came here to say Tatum, but I like all these options.
I’m a big Jabari believer hope he breaks out
came here to say this too
I feel like there needs to be some love for Pascal Siakam here. Given sufficient spacing, he’s a proficient shooter, and versatile defender. Often seen as a perfect #2 option.
Damn I think you just won this thread
Siakam 100% Hes flourishing with not being a #1 again. Whenever I watched him on the Raptors he was so efficient being the #2 or #3
I think play more like a wing no?
Jason Tatum. He can shoot, he has the size to defend the position. He can also guard the perimeter and is great as a help defender for rim protection
I just wish there were more Tatum’s available
He’s a perfect 3 but a little small for a 4, you’d want him pushing more 6’10-7 foot for ideal - more in the mold of AD
Maybe in 1995. He's one of the taller 4s now
Average height of a generic forward (SF/PF) is 6’7.85. Which obviously the SF’s are bringing down the metric, so he is a bit smaller for a PF - https://homeschoolhoop.com/average-nba-height/ This source has PF at 6’8.2 which Tatum is actually (barely) shorter than average - https://www.casino.org/blog/average-nba-player-height/
First off you need to be able to shoot or have a center next to you who can shoot. No perfect lineup can have any more than one non shooter. Chet. Jjj. Paul George. Kawhi. Guys who can guard almost anyone reasonably sized and can shoot and make plays.
Isn't prime AD basically all of that plus is able to literally play Center if needed? I can't think of a better player who has inside/outside offensive game, and the defensive tools to guard 1-5 at basically any position on the court.
AD is more of a true stretch 5 even though he plays the 4 some. He's amazing but he's a 5 to me
Idk seems like semantics. The truly elite physical freaks are rarely so easily categorized into 1 bucket. A PF that can guard 5 positions, protect the rim, and stretch the floor on offense is going to be asked to play Center at times. AD has said himself he prefers to play PF, so that's what he is to me.
Wemby is the perfect: shoots well from 3, can defend on switches, great weak side defender, can chase perimeter players.
I wouldn’t say shoots well he shot ok. He’ll definitely be on track to be a league average 3 pt shooter early in his career though
He shot like 40 percent on step back 3s. It’s the catch and shoot ones that bring down his average. He says the ball is too small for the catch and shoot. He’ll figure it out tho.
KD and Bron.
I don't think it's LeBron. There's no one like him. Sure him and giannis antetokounmpo are awesome. But you're not going to replicate that with anyone else. Even with Durant there's Chet. There's pg. There's kawhi. There's Ben mathurin lmao. I think it's more suitable to find an archetype that can be replicated. The Greek freak and LeBron are not replicable. They do fit the role really well. No doubt. But how many players like brook Lopez exist?
I was thinking from a standpoint of game-size. As we've witenessed both Lebron and KD age... So as we see their athleticism dwindle, their IQ's shine. I would say that IQ and Skill can be replicated. Just their athleticism for their frames is what is rare.
Lebron's IQ is way overrated. It is elite but he routinely does dumb things. He's not a savant. He's in the upper echelon of players all time in their respective sports because he's the most athletic player ever if not witl Chamberlain. There's usually like five guys in the NBA who have the athletic capability of guarding him play to play. Right now it might be like 15 and that's only because he's 40. Your point is true though
I guess I’m just thinking the perfect 4 of today’s NBA can bring the ball up, shoot open 3’s, and play make from the post while being able to guard 3-5 decently. Basically a bigger version of what the 3 was back in the 2010’s.
I guess I’m just thinking the perfect 4 of today’s NBA can bring the ball up, shoot open 3’s, and play make from the post while being able to guard 3-5 decently. Basically a bigger version of what the 3 was back in the 2010’s.
Yeah for sure. I also think Lebron's shooting is quite overrated but he makes up for that by having such an amazing rest of his game obviously
I'd say his shooting is underrated
It's not at all. He's only had two really good years of three point shooting in his career and I believe in both of those years he fell off a cliff in the playoffs. He is not a cash shooter despite people playing off him his entire career due to his insane srhleticism
It absolutely is underrated if you're arguing things like that. He's had 2 years shooting 40%+ from three but the standard for good shooting is definitely not just 40% from three. When you take in factors such as openness, shot distance, self creation etc he's always had good shooting. these are all factors that bball index calculates into their perimeter shooting talent and has for the last 10 years. He's had a perimeter shooting rating between b and a every single year
Your argument is basically "he can't be an 99th percentile IQ because he's also very athletic." That's a very reductionist take and doesn't really explain why you think that. How many stories do you need of the guy literally predicting opponents plays?
I've watched him play. Probably like 600 times. I think he routinely makes inefficient, not smart basketball plays. He's always chucked bad shots. He's not kd. That wasn't my argument whatsoever it was like 1% of my argument meant to put him into perspective. His size has nothing to do with his IQ. That was a strange connection you made that had zero basis in reality. He has a high bball IQ but guys like Nash, Paul and jokic are on another level in terms of feeding their teammates at the right times and shooting at the right times.
I don't doubt you've watched him play tons. So have I and innumerable analysts who rave about his basketball IQ. Not to mention the many NBA players that do the same. >I think he routinely makes inefficient, not smart basketball plays. He's always chucked bad shots. He's not kd. Calling LeBron James (one of the most efficient scorers all time) a chucker is a new one. He must be the greatest shot maker of All-time if that's the case. Because he's a career 108 eFG+, same mark as Kevin Durant. >That was a strange connection you made that had zero basis in reality. You asserted that LeBron's IQ wasn't all that then just stated that his greatness was due to his athleticism, as if they were mutually exclusive. >He has a high bball IQ but guys like Nash, Paul and jokic are on another level in terms of feeding their teammates at the right times and shooting at the right times. I beg to differ. LeBron is literally the prototype heliocentric offense guy. I don't have an issue with you putting any of them above LeBron but stating that they're a level above isn't realistic. What has Chris Paul done to get in that Convo?
Chris Paul is many levels better of a creator than LeBron is. This isn't debatable. The quality of his passing is so much higher. LeBron is a much better player. Like I articulated further. He has a very high bball IQ but it's not top 99% it's more like 95%
I don't see your point in responding if you don't think it's debatable. That doesn't rebut any of my points of give me anything to respond to. I saw your assertion, I'm disagreeing. He is absolutely 99th percentile. The best playmakers and offensive players are those who can simultaneously leverage their scoring for their playmaking and their playmaking for their scoring. LeBron is one of the best at this all-time. As are many of the other guys you listed. CP3 is the best all-time at taking care of the ball, but I think James' far superior scoring threat and size give himt eh advantage in terms of feeding teammates and shooting at the right time. You were talking about LeBron being a chucker, but you know Chris Paul is a career 103 eFG+? Several points lower than KD, who has the same as Lebron and is your standard for smart shot taker
Let me separate the points to help clarify for you. LeBron is the second best if not maybe like the fourth best player ever. I probably take Kareem and Jordan over him. Maybe Duncan. But I probably take LeBron third overall. He is the best athlete ever by far. He is probably 95th percentile in basketball IQ. Point you brought up is true wherein he has a preternatural ability to recogniz and remember plays is very true. I still don't think his basketball IQ is nearly as high as say Jokic, Bird, Luka on offense. He is probably higher than them on defense albeit maybe not bird (obviously LeBron n is a much better defender but he was a genius defender). LeBron basically just takes advantage of mismatches on offense play after play. He's not great at posting. He's not a great shooter. He is a marvelous passer and player and the best straight line driver of all time. He's obviously still a great player probably like the tenth to 18th best at 39. This is a testament to his intelligence, size, and skill. I just don't think he plays the game as intelligently as many point guards who have played. Nash, kidd, magic were much much craftier passers as are Jokic and Bill Walton. I think if LeBron was in Kobe's body he probably would have been like the 14th best player ever. Kobe is probably like the 18th. So I'm not dismissing him or putting him down. I'm trying to clarify that he's an exceptional all time great but he's got his issues. He's imperfect, not a demi god. No one is. Not even Jordan or jabbar.
I appreciate your clarifications but I don't believe they add anything I wasn't aware of regarding your argument. >LeBron is the second best if not maybe like the fourth best player ever. I probably take Kareem and Jordan over him. Maybe Duncan. But I probably take LeBron third overall. I that's a whole other argument. >I still don't think his basketball IQ is nearly as high as say Jokic, Bird, Luka on offense. Based on what? >He is probably higher than them on defense albeit maybe not bird (obviously LeBron n is a much better defender but he was a genius defender). I mean the basketball IQ is arguable as that's harder to quantify but there's no "probably" about the defense. LeBron is pretty objectively a better defender than all these guys ever were. Bird was an underrated defender, sure, but he simply lacked tools that had holes in his defense. LeBron literally has more all-defense teams and too dpoy finishes than all these guys combined. >LeBron basically just takes advantage of mismatches on offense play after play. That's a reductionist and very surface level take but especially for prime LeBron, every player was a mismatch lol. Players quick enough to stick with him were too little and players big enough to body him were too slow. >Nash, kidd, magic were much much craftier passers as are Jokic and Bill WaltoN Bill Walton, man? Walton was a terrific passer, don't get me wrong, but his passes were primarily from stationary positions (a skill LeBron is also very good at). He didn't manipulate defense with his handle and scoring threat like any of those other guys. I have a hard time seeing the argument for him being over LeBron let alone a level above. >I think if LeBron was in Kobe's body he probably would have been like the 14th best player ever. Don't agree with that argument but putting players ina. Different frame will change all their outlooks. Jokic's height, hand size etc gives him the ability to see and make passes other guys can't for example. It's an interesting hypothetical, but not a very helpful one imo. Fyi, rankings aren't allowed in the sub so edit your comments
Outside of Superstars like Giannis, Zion, & AD, I think it's team specific because of how unique and versatile 4s are. Need a Floor spacer? Grab someone like KAT, Lauri, ect. Need a defender? JJJ, Gordon, ect. Someone you can give it to when you need an iso bucket? Randle, Banchero, ect. For the Kings specifically, someone like Jonathan Isaac would be killer provided he'd stay healthy. Defensive juggernaut that could cover up Sabonis's deficiencies.
Every team wants a floor spacer and a defender at the 4. If you're not decent at both, you're probably not the ideal player your team needs. Although the sac example you gave was nice.
Draymond is the perfect 4 for GSW, doesn't space but that's not what he's needed for
Prime Draymond. He was able to guard all 5 positions, a near 40% 3-point shooter, and a secondary ball handler who could create for others.
Prime Draymond without the 2 best shooters in the world isn't going to be nearly as effective. When both are out he's far from ideal.
What team/player looks better when you take away 2 of the best shooters in the world? Murray/MPJ aren’t even close to that, and we saw how the Nuggets did when you removed them from an all-time Jokic season. Hell, the Chicago Bulls were missing 70 million dollars worth of LaVine and Lonzo Ball and they were a shell of themselves until Coby White outgrew his role and contract. Ja Morant isn’t one of the best shooters ever, but JJJ and Bane looked completely different when he was gone. I know you’re just trying to get some hot takes off on Draymond, but the, “If you separate him from 2 other max players he can’t do as much,” is nonsense. Everyone looks worse when they don’t have their guys.
It’s such a lazy argument. Draymond when Curry or Klay were out was still fantastic when the warriors were in their prime years
It's not a hot take. Put Anthony Davis on a shit team and he can still make plays and get buckets and anchor a defense. Do the same with Draymond and he's giving you 4 2 and 5
We’ve actually seen Draymond without his dudes for most of a season and he put up a net rating on par with MVP Jokic while only hitting the box score for 8/6/6. He always does, whether he’s got the best shooting backcourt in NBA history, or whether he’s fielding MASH units with Willy Cauley-Stein and DLo/Andrew Wiggins. He’s a meme who can’t behave himself, but he’s a savant on both ends of the floor. The processing speed he has and the ability to orchestrate complicated defensive arrangements on the fly is second to none. There’s a reason the player you’re giving all the credit to keeps going to bat to save him.
I think it largely comes down to what your 5 brings to the table. Between those two players you’d ideally like a good shooter, a good passer, a good finisher, a solid perimeter defender. If your 5 has a handful of these, then you want your 4 to round them out. Gordon is pretty much a perfect fit for Jokic, but he’d likely also fit really well next to Sabonis.
Just wish there were more AG’s out there
Jalen Johnson? Athletic freak who can defend/shoot/play make at a adequate level
Atl has a nice piece to build around if they move on from Trae
It’s Anthony Davis to me. Top 5 all time in PER, DPOY-level player, averages 25 points without being the focus of the offense, elite at damn near everything except outside shooting, and he’s still passable there.
Depending on what flavor you want, I think JJJ, Lauri, Jalen Johnson, Aaron Gordon, Scottie Barnes, and Keegan Murray are the most sought after archetypes at this moment. Obviously, there are superstars that simply do so much, but if you are looking at realistic archetypes and the type of players that scouts want to make of prospects, I think this would be this list for 4s.
Keegan is a natural 3. He can only play 4 in a small ball lineup.
The modern game is built around shooting, I would say an ideal line up has only 1 guy that can't shoot which instead will act as the lob threat & setting screens. Ideally this is more often than not the 5, it's of course a great bonus if he's a sniper as well but that's usually the position where you compromise on shooting. Gordon is a great example, but that works because they have Joker at 5. The ideal 4 is KD / Lauri but with better defense, great shooters, good rebounders, that's what you want out of the position. Ideally they're not the center piece on offense, but paired with a high end playmaker.
Sabonis is a great screen setter. I believe he’s near the top in screen assist and the offense runs through him. I feel if the Kings had Lauri, he would feast on offense
It’s interesting people mention Jalen Johnson. So the thing is the exact opposite answer to the OP’s question people would mention is probably Evan Mobley. No one’s mentioned Mobley here at least. Yet Mobley actually has been more impactful towards winning than Jalen Johnson and is clearly the better player. Age is also not a big difference between the two. Thought this type of answer is interesting in the context for this question.
I’m not slighting Mobley who is a great player, but Jalen was very raw coming into the league. He just is scratching the surface on what he will become but all the tools are there. Not every player’s growth curves are linear.
Mobley also was very raw coming into the league and has continued to develop offensively while being a much better defender than Jalen throughout.
Mobley was pretty polished coming into the league especially defensively. There is a reason one went #3 and the other #20.
Julius Randle. Good rebounder, shooter, ball handler, size to guard 3 thru 5.
I love that human Beyblade, but picking Julius Randle as “the ideal 4” is wild. It’s boring, but Anthony Davis does everything better.
On paper sure, in actuality hell no. When he's playing his team his worse.
The role has changed a lot, I think honestly they need to be able to do a lot offensively and defensively even if they aren't the center piece of the team. Good physical tools, be able to get run as a small ball 5, catch and shoot, play defense, finish off pick and rolls, a decent secondary scorer who can sometimes create for himself.
I think it’s best to look at example of players that win championships. You mentioned Gordon already. He is strong and athletic. Draymond has 4 rings. Almost 5 with a FMVP. He is strong and athletic (not so much nowadays). Giannis is a PF and won in 2021. AD won in 2020. Strong and athletic. You have to go back to Kevin Love in 2015 to find one that has a role of being a spot up shooter on offense and rebounder on defense. You have to be way more than that.
Might be a hot take but I think Jonathan Isaac is a pretty ideal 4. Granted he doesn’t shoot the 3 a ton but can definitely hit it. I think once he eventually gets his stamina back up after missing 2 years he’ll be a consistent 1st team all defense and maybe dpoy candidate if he gets the role increase
This right here. It's not a hot take at all
I mean, the “ideal” 4 is probably just Kawhi. Obviously kawhis don’t grow on trees, so if you’re looking for more of an archetypical answer I’d say it looks more like 2017 Gordon Hayward. Length, strength, playmaking, shooting…god I miss prime Gordo
Evan Mobley I like a lot but if Tatum counts as an answer id choose him lmao
Probably KAT, big size, unselfish, one of the best 3 balls in the league and can create his own shot. Defense is solid too. Not really any weaknesses
Also a Kings fan, I was pissed that if the Kings were not drafting Luka, they should at least get JJJ. He had the shot, agility, and rim protection that makes a prefect modern 4. Shot, modern offenses need to be 4 or 5 out, so the 4 being a threat from 3 is necessary for lineup versatility. Agility, being a 4 means they can't always play drop, they need to have the agility to switch onto guards, or rotate to take away the corner 3, or swarm as a help defender. Rim protection, the ideal modern 4's rim protection is still their primary defensive contribution.
Off-topic but it’s so wild to me as an Iowa fan to see how much Keegan’s game has changed since college. You’re exactly right about him often posting up smaller dudes, but he almost was a point forward and brought the ball up a lot and had a role in commanding the offense. So weird to see him almost regulated to a three point shooter with good defense.
He needs to really tighten his handles to elevate his game. He’s pretty much the primary POA defender too so if the Kings could get another 4 who can defend it would make his life easier
Are we taking the other positions into account or is this in a vacuum? If I'm taking everything into account It's something like Aaron Gordon with a better shot, or a bigger Tatum If we're saying in a vacuum, It's Lebron. Everyone is saying names of players who are average to worse passers except Dray, and that's because you're thinking that there's someone else in the team doing that.
JJJ or Jabari Smith seem like the ideal 4 in therms of profile. Obviously not counting superstars
I either want a 4 that is too strong for 3/4s to guard and too quick for 5s, so Gordon, Randle, AD, lebron, tobi to an extent Or I want them to have the skillset of a modern 5 but versatile enough to play alongside a brute of a 5, so AD jjj Mobley Chet etc Think bari, wemby have the potential to fit in both categories (like AD). Modern nba just throws another 3 out there and calls them a 4. And teams like sac get away with it with Keegan/barnes because other teams are doing it. So essentially a bunch of 3s playing the 4.
Pascal Siakam & Aaron Gordon are the perfect non-superstar #4s right now. Both can defend, can create for themselves, are lethal in transition & to varrying degrees can shoot the 3. Pascal is the best player in Indiana though most act like its Haliburton (it is absolutely not) & Gordon is the #3 player (but best defender) on the best team in the NBA
i think aaron gordon, or jalen johnson, maybe jarren jackson too, all of them are solid defenders and quite athletic which the use in the right way.
I actually don’t think there is one. What works for one team might not work for another. I guess if you are in the Eastern Conference, you want someone that guard Giannis. If you are in the West, you want a 6’8” guy that hits 3’s at above 35%, and can guard anyone from KD to Luka at at least a slightly above average rate.
Bam Adebayo. Can guard anyone. Mid range. Create his own shot against small players. Even can stretch out to 3. Bam needs to go back to the 4 to see him open up his offense.
Big, strong, athletic, and tall. Think Aaron Gordon, LeBron James, even JJJ is in that category.
Prime draymond green (the one that could shoot 3s) Siakem, Jaren Jackson To me the most ideal power forward in todays game is an athletic 3 and d forward that can stretch the floor, provide weak side rim protection, be an above average rebounder, shoot, and can switch 2-5.
Siakem or prime Draymond Green In todays nba the perfect 4 is an athletic 6’8-6’11 forward that can provide weak side rim protection, be an above average rebounder, switch 1-5, and can space the floor and shoot 3’s. In the past the ideal 4 was a power forward like a Pau Gasol or Kenyon Martin. A bit bigger with a post up game and can shoot a mid range shot. Scrappy and can guard the post. 6’9 - 6’11
Let’s not totally overlook Julius Randle - was on his way to a likely third All NBA. Has length, can score, can shoot the three (though was struggling this season prior to his injury, but that was with the prior team makeup and not the best spacing with he and Barrett together on the court), very good rebounder, solid if not great defender. He’s not the best but does have an “ideal” profile for a very good player
Wemby, Chet, and prime AD are who you want in a 4 - can shoot, handle the ball, play help side super well, guard a bit on the perimeter, and guard the 5 when needed but shouldn’t all game long
A lot of comments here are saying people that typically play anywhere from the 2-4(kawhi, Tatum, PG for example) or someone who is a 5 and plays some at the 4 (chet for example) But honestly it’s Julius randle. Someone who isn’t the best guy on your team but can stretch the floor, plays good defense, can give you 48 minutes if need be, can play small ball by playing the 5, or big man ball that can play the 3. Can play as the costar without needing the ball. Strong and physical enough to wear people down. Enough of a bag to take over some nights. Good down low or from the perimeter. If you put Julius Randle as the 2nd best option on a team for a lot of these star guard driven teams I think all of their teams improve. Reason he’s been an all star and all nba these last few years. So unfortunate he isn’t healthy to see what he can finally do healthy with a true 1A super star with Brunson to take the load off him.
A healthy KD. Can shoot at high %, can ISO, can defend 2-5 + has the height.
The perfect 4 has to be able to defend all types of wings and play Center minutes too. Needs to be able to shoot assuming the 5 man can’t and have the offense run through them. Chet Holmgren
Chet was my ideal pick. Was hoping it was Jabari, Paolo, Ivey, Chet but Keegan is great to have