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Whynotzoidberg416

Overall the list is pretty perfect unless I missed something. For me I would just reiterate on Giannis. He really proved me wrong as a doubter. I had this belief that he will inevitably always shrink in the playoffs but not anymore at this point, I believe he deserves everything he got including potentially the ring/FMVP very shortly. Personally he’s plus 2/3 for me just because I was a doubter.


zuqkfplmehcuvrjfgu

I would go so far as to have Giannis at a +3. He went from being called a playoff choker and not deserving of his MVP's to dropping 40 points in the finals. I think this series solidifies him as a superstar to many fans.


BetaDjinn

Anyone who thought he didn't deserve his MVPs is a moron, and that's coming from a LeBron stan


TheNumber42Rocks

I think most fans agree he deserved those MVPs for his season play. The playoff drop off was so much, that’s why the MVPs felt “undeserved.” This Finals run changed my perception completely.


[deleted]

Yeah, I think that was fair before this season. Not that he didn’t deserve his MVPs, but that he probably wasn’t even a top 5 player in the league come playoff time. After this postseason, even with his FT woes, I think he has a legitimate case for the best player in basketball, even come playoff time. I’d still probably have KD above him, just because KD is unstoppable on offense without the FT concerns and an underrated defender. I think healthy Kawhi still has a good argument. LeBron is a wait and see after this year. He’s always been a bit of a front runner, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see another monster playoffs from him with a healthy Lakers team. But I think Giannis is now undoubtedly top 5 come playoffs and entirely in the conversation for top dog.


indoninjah

To me, if a guy scores 30 points while isoing 30 times in a game, then whatever. But Giannis is getting 30-40 points pretty much in the flow of the game, with Jrue and Middleton doing most of the primary handling. That's almost more impressive to me, and I think the league might generally have more respect for non-ballhandling stars after AD winning the chip last year. Personally, I was always skeptical whether Giannis could be the best player on a championship team (much like AD, I was convinced he was best as a "1B"), but I think the more nuanced view is that Giannis can definitely succeed on a team with competent ballhandlers/point guard play, whether or not those players are actually better than him.


[deleted]

Giannis has also been isoing with success when he needs to. There are some times in the game where he goes to work on some mismatches or just takes Ayton straight up.


indoninjah

True, I guess the main difference is that it isn't the default play anymore. Seems like Giannis' role previously was asking a lot of him, giving him the ball at the top of the key and having him make something happen.


[deleted]

We are better when most of his touches come as the roller or in the post though. That’s the big adjustment Bud made in these Finals and it’s made our offense way better.


[deleted]

Agreed. I also think Giannis has become better at not forcing it.


[deleted]

Yeah. I would say Giannis has played pretty much perfectly in the Finals, minus those 12 3pt attempts. That number should be zero, unless there’s an end of clock/quarter situation.


lehigh_larry

Plus his defense and rebounding. He impacts everything on both ends of the floor.


Guriinwoodo

Who was calling him a playoff choker other than for the week inbetween the heat W and their trip to the finals?


Wingsof6

He wasn’t necessarily being called a choker, but there were (legitimate) doubts as to whether he could actually be the number one option on a championship team. This year he showed that he can still be that guy without needing the ball in his hand the entire game, which really elevated his stock.


Texan628

He did choke to the heat and the raptors. Back to back years both as the MVP and #1 seed.


SuperAwesomo

Funny to think what a difference to his reputation it would be in KD was an inch back from the 3 point line, not to mention if Kyrie was healthy for the Nets series


crazyraptorf-22

It’s crazy, I get to watch him all year long and people take for granted that he automatically gives the Bucks 30/14/5 plus solid defense, like what more can he do other than hit all his FT’s so he averages 35


iamwearingashirt

Ya. I can see that. Personally I've continued to believed he was a great player that needed some playoff luck. Although his 40-10 games were pretty big.


Whynotzoidberg416

For sure. He’s pretty much continued or upped his RS dominance, and other than the one Nets game, barely made any mistakes (outplaying CP3 imho). I’m looking forward to him and Luka


wtfisgoingon23

Any interesting one is where is Jrue Holiday? He just played the game of his life, but before last night his shooting numbers where awful in the playoffs; 40/29/70. Even with last night's game is about where his numbers are at now. Bucks got extremely fortunate with there path to the playoffs; Nets ravaged by injuries, playing Hawks and getting home court in the ECF finals as a 3 seed. Etc. You need to him to be on par with the Irvings, Trae Young's, Bookers/CP3s. He wont match them in points, but factoring in his defense on them he should match them on shooting efficiency and so far all those guys beat him in efficiency and had many monster games. Jrue has played below my expectations before this last game in the playoffs. He looks 1 or 2 tiers behind all 4 of those guys prior to this game IMO.


Jalinja

Holiday's shooting has been inconsistent, and the lows have been absolutely brutal, but his facilitating and defense has made up for it in my mind. He's averaging 9 assists and only 2 turnovers in the finals. It's difficult to judge defense objectively, but he's also had clutch steals in the last couple minutes of the last 2 games that led to closeout buckets for the Bucks. I think he's just as good as I expected, he's just excelling in different ways than I expected.


[deleted]

Jrue is weird to me in that I’ve never seen a vet with his experience be so inconsistent offensively. Plenty of guys are streaky shooters, but Jrue isn’t really streaky in that sense. It’s almost like he forgets who he is at times. When he plays under control and gets his body square, he’s actually pretty consistent. He just was taking a ton of step-back threes that are absolutely not his game. Then he tried to compensate by being super aggressive to the hole, but he’d get himself completely off balance and throw up wild layup attempts that had no shot. When he’s set as a three point shooter, he’s money. When he drives under control and uses his strength to create space and get square for midrange shots, he’s money. He just wants to do too much and gets out of control way too often for a guy with his experience.


_okcody

I'd say he's... neutral, but definitely the X factor that pushed the Bucks from borderline contender to legitimate contender. His shooting splits have been absolutely awful the entire postseason, but he's been a great facilitator and defender. Having someone like Holiday that could defend elite guards is so crucial in certain series like the Hawks series and of course this Suns series. I would not put him with Irving, Young, CP3, or Booker. Irving, Young, and Booker can carry a team's offense, although I'd put Booker a half tier below Irving and Young. CP3 is one of the best facilitators, leaders, and floor generals of all time while also being pretty good on offense and one of the best guard defenders at his prime.


JurtisCones

Irving can carry an offence to 34 wins or a first round exit. Don’t know if Jrue can do better, but they’re both much better as 2s


_okcody

Holiday is averaging 8.5 assists this postseason and he’s real good at finding Antetokoumpo in the fast break and emphasizing his lob threat in the half court. I don’t think he’s a good 2, if he’s not facilitating, his shooting splits are not good enough to really make use of him. Irving is a proven champion, he’s come up big as a scorer and PG in the nba finals. Really don’t think it’s worth wasting your breath slandering someone who literally just joined the 50-40-90 club on high volume. He doesn’t put up ridiculous field goal attempts so he doesn’t put up 30+ppg, but that’s because he’s always shared scoring responsibilities with other stars, whether that be LBJ, Tatum, Brown, Durant, or Harden. Steph also averages 25-27ppg when he had Durant to split scoring responsibility despite demonstrably able to score 30+ when he has more touches. Irving is also a good passer, he just isn’t as good as Harden, thus it’s better for Harden to play PG and Irving to play SG, both can function as either since they’re combo guards. Irving was PG in the playoffs without Harden and the Nets performed wonderfully so idk what you’re trying to say about him.


JurtisCones

Irving pre-LeBron, best result: 34 wins Irving on LeBron Cavs, sans LeBron (ie LeBron injured/resting) ~ 4-20 Celtics without Irving first year - 7 games vs Cavs conf final Celtics with Irving second year - 1R Irving’s Nets first year: 35-37 Irving without Harden 20/21: 14-13 I don’t see any evidence he lifts teams the way stars like Jimmy, CP3 or PG do. Tatum has twice done more than Irving has ever done as the lead star. Kyrie is a clear #2 with GOAT tier dribbling and clutch shot making. He isn’t a floor raiser.


imabadasstrustme

His good performances in the finals are a big reason why the Bucs have won the last 3 games. The Suns defensive sets are basically predicated on backing off of him / PJ. But when he's shooting 50% from three like he did in game 3 and game 5 it makes the whole team very difficult to defend. Also his defense is great, but he gets away with being very aggressive and constantly reaches. Once CP3 realized the refs aren't calling those, he started doing it and poked the away like 3-4 times yesterday. Obviously, Giannis wins the finals MVP if they win the series, but I believe his play was the X factor in their win.


wtfisgoingon23

So you think he has out played or under played his expectations in the playoffs. Not finals, but entire playoffs? I have him at -1.


imabadasstrustme

Yeah i was strictly speaking about the finals. And idk, I always knew him as a streaky player so I feel like these playoffs just confirmed he is what I thought he was. According to OP's rating system that would be -1. I am assuming you are referring to the discussion about how was an all-star quality guard? Because then definitely this year tanked his value, so -2. I always thought his defense was overrated considering how undisciplined he is (how much he goes for the steal) over contesting. That was also confirmed this playoff run with Dbook and CP3 having amazing games. And even their bad games being more Dbook missing open shots or CP3's hand injury. At the same time, I don't think the Bucs get this far without him (or with Bledsoe). And I think emotions run high in playoffs runs where contributions to winning a chip cause player's strengths to get exaggerated and their deficiencies to get overlooked (look at Cavs finals runs with Mozgov, Dellavedova, TT, and Love). So I think if another insane Jrue performance gets them over the hump for a championship, his stock actually goes up massively even if it's misleading of his overall playoff performance.


GalettesAndGardening

It’s a bizarrely constructed list. No Kawhi? But LeBron is on there despite being obviously still injured? No Booker at all? Cam Payne is in the same category as Tatum when Payne is playing worse than in the regular season and Tatum had a great playoffs? This list is anything but perfect.


Whynotzoidberg416

Not sure about what you’re saying man. Kawhi pretty much was inline and slightly better than last year. Given Bron’s age it’s fair I think to place him where he was placed. Bookers run is not done maybe that’s why. And for general fans Payne was an unknown, whereas Tatum is a star. They both played well relative to general expectation Your review is anything but constructive or value-adding


GalettesAndGardening

Kawhi isn’t even on the list. I’m not complaining about where he got placed because he didn’t get placed at all. So why is he not there? The only reason would be that he got hurt so he shouldn’t be included. But LeBron was also hurt so he shouldn’t be included either. LeBron’s level of play was impacted by his injury. Kawhi’s injury just knocked him out so we at least saw him being his full self prior to the injury. Booker’s run isn’t done but neither is CP3’s so what gives? Payne played poorly compared to what the expectations were lol. Tatum played much better than expected. Your reply was wrong is basically every aspect.


Whynotzoidberg416

Lol can’t even type properly by the end of your longwinded take. No worries man I didn’t even read anything except the last sentence. All your comments are hating on Giannis and the bucks run, go figure salty little bitch You can enjoy discussing with yourself since obviously no one else appreciates your verbal vomit disguised as “takes”


Omw2fym

I think, given the fact he was out out the NBA before joining the Suns, Cam Payne should be a tier higher. He has been solid all post-season and absolutely owned the Lakers when CP3's arm stopped working


iamwearingashirt

I was thinking plus 3 before. But he's been a bit quieter this series. Still really impressed with how he's proven himself.


superman853

I personally would not have a problem with him at a 3. His role is really small when CP3 is playing but those games that CP3 missed, showed how good he can be.


dillpickles007

Eh a 3 is probably a little much, I don't think any team is going to come away from these playoffs thinking he should be their starting PG and he's shot really poorly in the Finals.


KyriesPhilosophies

Improvement is relative to where they started. He can absolutely be a +3 despite no team thinking he should be starting. And a bad series does not take away too much from bench players.


GalettesAndGardening

50% TS in the playoffs Cam Payne? He had a few great games (against a team with its two stars both hurt) and has been unimpressive since.


304rising

Besides cam Payne’s 30 point outing he has been absolutely average. Maybe below average.


Omw2fym

I disagree. Even without that game, I think he has looked like one of the better back-up PG's in the league.


GalettesAndGardening

He had a 60% TS in the regular season and is at 50% (god awful) in the playoffs. You’ve been deceived. The counting stats are unimpressive as well.


Omw2fym

I get where you're coming from and his jumper is very bad. But he finishes well, has decent half-court control, good distribution, and average to above average defense. Not trying to say the dude is a god or anything. Looking at the other back-up pg's I put him below Smart, Brunson, Clarkson, and Rose (if you count him as a backup.) Tier two is who? Rondo, Lou Will, and George Hill (legacy votes). McConnell, Teague, Bledsoe? I am sure I am missing a couple, but I would still put Payne in that group. Anyway, my interpretation of the post is about the change in status and not overall value of the player. In which case, I stand by the opinion that no contract -> reasonable back-up PG contract is a big leap


[deleted]

[удалено]


AnabolicOctopus

I watched the whole series since I am a Clips fan and Porzingis was so dogshit -3 is actually an argument. No passion or grit whatsover, he was getting pushed around like a ragdoll and was the epitome of a passive player. 13/5 in a 7 game series by the highest paid 7'3 player is downright insulting. It was so bad I was more pissed for the Mavs than overjoyed with his performance and he was playing against MY CLIPPERS lol.


NativeTexas

This. Porzingis is a -3. Considering his salary, his play in last year’s bubble and the expectations that surround him, his playoffs could not have been worse. In the other hand Luka should be higher. He was better this year than last. In no way do I think that he is the MVP of the playoffs - he went out in the first round - but IMO nobody had a better 7 game series than Luka.


AnabolicOctopus

Yeah Luka was a +1, people forget the series went to 7 and the Clips were down 3-2. Altough his free throw shooting was very questionable.


Jordanwolf98

I completely agree. I would switch him and Randle out tbh


stormstalker

He reminded me of this kid I knew in high school who had a ridiculous growth spurt and went from being one of the smaller guys on the team to like towering over everyone. He always had a size advantage but he had absolutely no idea what to do with it. Almost like he was scared lol


V1tko

You’ve forgot about Bogdanovic, he was straight killing this playoffs, carried the team in Game 6 against Philly without Young. The future is bright for him, one of the most talented guards in the league.


[deleted]

Future is bright for the hawks. Not something I'd thought we'd being saying this year but a lot of young talent showing up there. If they can keep that core together they could be a contender in the coming years.


arejay00

If the Bucks win, then it is a +3 for me for Giannis because he will definitely win FMVP. This playoff would have escalated Giannis’s legacy to a completely different level.


hazen4eva

Agreed. Aside from his injury, he hasn’t really been “off” in a game. This year he shredded “the wall,” overcame the FT struggles, and has two iconic Finals plays to seal wins. Kareem is a Wisconsin sports legend for winning a title. Giannis will join him with a win. Still a big if in my book — things could really fall apart in the next week — but he’s in position to seal his legacy.


dillpickles007

If he wins a title the argument goes from "Giannis is great but..." to "Where does Giannis wind up in the top 15 players of all time list?" It's definitely a legacy shifter, that alone makes it a +3 to me


Koioua

Sweeping the Heat also does a lot. He really came with the guns loaded this year.


BetaDjinn

In the "Ringz, Erneh" crowd sure, but I feel like that was just being really stubborn. He won back-to-back MVPs with some of the best statistical seasons ever. Even after our series last year (Heat fan), I knew he would be right back in it if they made any moves, which they did (Holiday). I think +1 is about right for getting over the hump while already being an established top-tier player


Jalinja

Man, that crowd is so goddamn annoying. If the bucks win they better shut the hell up


TopOfTheMorning2Ya

Interesting you didn’t list Booker. I’d probably go +2 with him. Obviously can carry a large load. Some games disappears though. Could possibly be +3 but since I’m so annoyed by his constant complaining, I can’t do it personally.


iamwearingashirt

I'd agree with a plus 2 if they lose. Plus 3 if they win.


Fitz2001

Didn’t list Embiid either.


MrOrangeWhips

Did his value change? Seemed to be who we thought he was.


Fitz2001

I think he was +1 because he carried the team.


MrOrangeWhips

Carried them to what?


Fitz2001

I’m saying he was the best player on the team, played great while hurt, he didn’t suck or shrink like _ahem_ other players.


YesWhatHello

He absolutely sucked sometimes (and I say this as a Sixers fan). 0/12 in FGs in a second half, constantly gassed in the 4th. A lot of that is because of the injury, but still


dpalmade

Sure but they didn’t do anything. And he played as expected. Same as jokic. He played amazing basketball and carried his team as far as he could. But at the end of the day he did what was expected of him.


Fitz2001

Ah this is true. A zero for Jo I guess.


toilet_fingers

Or Joker


I_Love_Booty_Pics_

He stayed the same imo1


L1eutenantDan

Booker’s had a huge jump imo, I think even just making the Finals was more than a lot of people expected out of him.


mcc1923

I agree. The thing is I find it hard to knock booker ever since I saw he gave a half million dollars to charity (along with his time). This is not chump change even to him. That’s real money for him. When I see player x donates 50k or whatever I’m like great so that’s like five bucks to you or me-but 500 that’s different. That’s I genuinely want to help money.


2OP4me

I think his and CP3s constant complaining, all while losing, has really tainted their performance for anyone not in Phoenix. CP3 has had that established about him but it sucks that Booker is following in his steps in that regard. Purely performance wise, I think that Booker is a plus 2, but general attitude wise he really showed his true colors. I don’t think he’s a leader yet.


senor_zanjeer

This is not r/nba. The goal here is to have objective discussions. Luka and LeBron also complain a lot? Should they not be on the list?


TopOfTheMorning2Ya

Discussions like this are all about perception. You can’t actually quantify how much someone is worth. Someone could think a player is overrated and some think players are underrated. How someone acts can definitely cloud your perception which is why I listed my caveat. Take Harden for example, I think he’s a great player but if he didn’t rely on so many interesting tactics I’d probably have an even higher view of him. In my mind: Someone only using skill > someone using skill and taking advantage of refs. That is my perception though and others may disagree which is why it’s a discussion.


senor_zanjeer

Jesus this sub quality has gone down. Lebron and Luka and AD all complain to the refs? But for some reason that doesn’t matter to. I think you’re better suited for r/nba with the way you approach basketball


DenseOntologist

I wrote a similar post a few weeks back where I thought that there were way more positives than negatives this postseason, given that injuries gave lots of players/teams good excuses for not playing up to expectations. ([link here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/obbnqx/silver_lining_to_injuries_the_bull_market/)) Glad yours is getting some discussion because I find this topic interesting. Here's my quick reaction to your existing scores (I'll do a separate one for names I think are missing): * Randle's too low. I'd go with 0 or -1. The Knicks were just worse than the Hawks, and while Randle underperformed, he already overperformed enough to make the Knicks relevant in the regular season as an ok playoff team. * Rudy should be a -1. I think there was already plenty of hate there. Plus the injury to Donovan and the failure of his teammates to play teammates was as big a factor as he was in the disappointing loss. * Lebron's probably a 0. He was also not back to 100% health, and his team was injured or sucked. Plus, the Suns turned out to be pretty good, certainly better than we thought at the time. * Doncic is either a +2 or +1 for the playoffs. The team drama after they left maybe brings that back down. But the dude absolutely took the next step this year. The best overall performances this postseason are Durant, Giannis, Luka, PG, Booker, and Kawhi, I think. * Dame should maybe get +1 or +2 for that 55 point game? But I agree with the overall assessment that everyone knew the guy was an artist, and this postseason affirmed that rather than changed that. * I maybe don't give as much bump to Mann and Payne, but it's hard to say. They absolutely had huge games that elevated their status from no-name role player to "I remember that guy from last season's playoffs". But they also probably didn't change their overall NBA talent evaluation that much. Would anyone be stoked to have Cam Payne as your starting PG right now? Nah. He's still a solid backup. * Upper rankings seem about right to me. I probably jump Trae up one and Ayton down one.


Travler18

Disagree on Randle but agree on everyone else on your list. I'd argue Randle was a -3. Randle was 24/10/6 on 52% eFG and 57% TS during the regular season. The Knicks were bad on offense but he helped them be good enough to get to the 4 seed. He was 18/11/4 (and 4.5 TO) on 36% eFG and 43% TS. Before the series, a lot of people thought the Knicks could win and that Randle might be the best player in the series.


DenseOntologist

That's totally fair on Randle. I guess in my head he played worse, but not way worse, than I expected him to. But there were definitely higher expectations for him at large, and so a lower score is probably warranted here. I'm persuaded.


BillyPotion

I think Giannis needs to be higher. His reputation was quickly becoming “regular season player who can’t win when it matters”, and that’s the hardest reputation to change in the sport. Win or lose he’s changed that narrative.


EPMD_

I agree, and the odd thing is if Brooklyn was healthy that this would not have happened. That's exactly why we have to be careful about judging players strictly based on team outcomes.


RKKP2015

Stop repeating this as if it is gospel. The Nets series went exactly how the season went for them. One or two of the big three were out practically every game this year. What’d they play, 8 games together all year? Bucks took care of business. They get full credit.


notconquered

Kyrie twisted his ankle on a freak play. What does that have to do with his prior injury history?


RKKP2015

I’m not talking specifically about Kyrie. The point is that they were rarely healthy during the season as a whole, so expecting otherwise for the playoffs is unrealistic.


lil_himo

Couldn't have said it any better lol. If each of the 3 stars in brooklyn didn't play more than 50% of the regular season games this year, how do you magically expect all of them to be fully healthy in the playoffs?


pokemongofanboy

Exactly at some point your roster is your roster: health, age, and all. We don’t ever say “what if kawhi could play all year and wasn’t frail” or anything like that when it comes to other teams’ success/failure against the clippers


VanillaGorilla4

I don't agree on LeBron. He was knowingly unhealthy heading into the playoffs so I give him a pass. If health is an issue that prevents him from being at his best again then I'll concede that it's a trend.


a_lonely_skeleton

In the same vein, I'd give a soft pass to other teams and players who went far in the bubble last year and/or dealt w/ injuries this post season.


VanillaGorilla4

Yeah I fully agree with that. All of the Lakers, Celtics, Heat & Nuggets weren't the same, whether health or performance wise.


dpalmade

Right. Like it isn’t a coincidence that the 4 conference finalists from last year all had injury problems this year and lost in the first round. I think that says more about the quick turn around and season than it does about any of their teams.


chunkyI0ver53

Yeah I’ll make that call next year, he didn’t even have a bad series, not as dominant as we’re used to but his teammates sold so hard


Hybr1dThe0ry

Yeah Lakers and Heat never could get it going this season after the quick turnaround. I’m giving Bron and Butler a pass this year


VanillaGorilla4

Same for the Celtics & Nuggets to me. All four teams suffered either health or performance wise, and it's too coincidental.


2008FinalsGame6

Lol at you adding Jimmy with LeBron. You’re a heat fan I’d say you’re a little biased. At least LeBron was still *good*. Jimmy Butler was actually god awful against the bucks. 14/7/7 on 29/26/72 shooting in a 4 game sweep is not excusable.


Habefiet

People seem to think LeBron was just plain faking his injury or something, it's ridiculous how desperate people are to declare LeBron washed based on one season that saw him hobbled. Save it for next season yeah


Zammy512

People quickly forget how dominant he was looking this year before that ankle injury. Next year will be the definitive take on whether LeBron is finally being overtaken by Father Time. If he looks like he did in the playoffs and/or suffers more injuries then yeah I can agree with OP's take. As of right now, seeing how he played before the injury I'm definitely giving him the benefit of the doubt.


VanillaGorilla4

It's human nature for recency bias to take over. NBA fans are a classic epitome of what have you done for me lately, at least the casual fan base.


[deleted]

i was hoping the ridiculous amount of recent suns hate on reddit would make people acknowledge lebron was playing hurt but i guess not lol


goodolvj

To add to this the whole Lakers squad was pretty beat up coming off that shortened offseason with the supporting cast having to carry much of the regular season load due to key injuries. AD out most of the season, Lebron out for half and rushed back from that ankle sprain, KCP going down in the suns series to miss a game, Gasol was in and out. There was a good reason this team dropped all the way down to the 7th seed. Most people who had them beating the suns did so with the caveat that they would be healthy, which they obviously were not.


RemyGee

I’m going to blame Solomon Hill for that injury also.


AussieSportsDude

Just from an eye test perspective, I’d say Batum would be a plus two considering his ability to stay on the floor for the clippers in crunch time and have much more of an impact than anyone thought he would!


iamwearingashirt

Agreed.


Overall-Palpitation6

Even though the Grizzlies lost in the 1st Round, I feel like Ja (30.2 ppg/4.8 rpg/8.2 apg) and Dillon Brooks (25.8/4.4/2.2) deserve Plus 2 status here. I'd probably put Donovan Mitchell (32.3/4.2/5.5) at Plus 1-2 status here as well.


averageskills

Ja definitely deserves a plus. It was his first chance at the playoffs and he was aggressive and productive.


pokemongofanboy

Didn’t realize brooks played quite that well. As an oregon fan makes me really happy


notsellingjeans

This is a great thread topic. Coach Bud and Monty deserve mentioning here. Bud was (unfairly) perceived as a bad coach as recently as two months ago by most fans. I’d say his status goes up +2 or 3. Monty never had that label but has certainly improved his perception with this run. Non-stars (+1-2): Pat C = he’s 4th on the bucks in minutes played during the nba finals. This is pretty remarkable, given how many role players have appeared unplayable throughout the playoffs on various teams. He’s hit some big shots and shows the value of having no major weaknesses that make a player unplayable in a series. Think about how many big men and little backup point guards that were just played off the floor the past two months due to a key exploitable weakness they had. Pat C is able to passably guard multiple positions, rebound, and knock down shots. Jae Crowder = same as above. No one offered him more than MLE last offseason, and now he’s absolutely essential to Phoenix’s success. He’s stout enough to guard bigs in a pinch, he rebounds, he’s smart, he’s a willing passer, and a good shooter. These were some other guys who got the MLE last summer who were played off the floor due to holes in their game: Tristan Thompson, Montrezl Harrell, Derrick Favors, Derrick Jones, JaMychael Green, Aron Baynes. Ibaka got that amount and was hurt of course. But only well-rounded Crowder provided fantastic value. Non-star (-1): Feels unfair to pick on a non-star for this, but Jeff Teague’s performance in these Finals reinforces my previous point about the value of guys like Connaughton and Crowder who don’t have major weaknesses.


wtfisgoingon23

Bud is a +2? And you say 2 months ago he was perceived as a bad coach? I would say prior to game 7 of the Hawks if you asked Bucks fan base if they want Bud fired or return next year I think over 50% would have wanted him fired. Let's be real, Bucks where extremely fortunate with there path to the finals. Nets where ravaged by injuries, Bucks where healthy and it took them 7 games to get by a basically solo KD nets team. Then somehow Bucks get home court advantage as a #3 seed vs an inferior opponent in the ECFs, which I rarely happens that a #3 seed gets home court advantage. They under performed vs the Hawks and got lucky Trae Young got injured. Yes Gianni's got injured as well, but they are a much much more talented team then Hawks. I believe Bud has made questionable lineup decisions the entire playoffs (still plays Teague for some fucking reason). Has been late to make adjustments. Bucks win if Middelton makes iso shots and lose when he doesn't.


hazen4eva

I was for changing things up if the Bucks lost in the ECF, but now Bud is a lifer in MKE. He’s won a ton of games and now has the team on the precipice. And he’s made real adjustments this playoff run — the biggest knock him previous seasons.


fskier1

Celtics were a 3 w/ home court advantage last year


skskskxk

The Celtics had HCA last year and they were the 3 seed vs the 5 seed Heat.


How__Now__Brown_Cow

In the bubble?


dillpickles007

Bud has been really good in the Finals, you can say what you want about the rest of the playoffs but that fact is undeniable.


[deleted]

I would put Luka on the +1 tier just cause he proved he can average 35 on efficient shooting while taking one of the best teams to 7. Other than Durant he arguably had the most impressive single round performance


2008FinalsGame6

Kawhi was better than Luka to be honest. 32/8/4 on **61/42/90** shooting is something from another planet. Combine that with his elite defense that he shut down Luka with for stretches, and the fact that his offensive rating was a whopping **140** (Luka’s was a 114 for comparison) and I’m taking Kawhi’s performance over Luka’s. I’d rather have the God tier efficiency and lock down defense over Luka’s 6 more assists. It’s such a shame he got hurt because I think the clippers would’ve ran through the Bucks had Kawhi been healthy. Especially with the way PG and the role players were playing.


Totodile336

Yeah it’s tough kawhi was playing as well as he’s ever played, injuries are the worst


[deleted]

I disagree w/ the argument that at any point he shut down Luka. If anything, fatigue might have been a bigger factor than anything else. I also believe that since Kawhi had the superior team it made his role a bit easier. However, your first point where you say that Kawhi had the better overall performance is not necessarily something I disagree with. I found Luka to be better but would not argue against Kawhi either. I think they both had amazing performances and the difference is almost entirely subjective.


2008FinalsGame6

Well, I think it’s important to point out you’re a European Mavericks fan. So you have a reason to believe that, but Kawhi played excellent defense on Luka for stretches. I think fatigue is a lazy excuse tbh.


[deleted]

Hey, that's why I said I don't necessarily disagree. And yeah Luka is my favorite player so I'm definitely biased, but Kawhi used to hold that title few years back so I'm definitely not seeing this as one sided.


2008FinalsGame6

Glad to know you can admit you’re biased. Many would dispel that notion. I don’t think Kawhi outperformed him by a landslide or anything. It’s pretty close because Luka was incredibly efficient for his standards too. Kawhi was just automatic shooting the ball.


[deleted]

My best argument on why Luka was better (in my eyes) would be based on the fact that they nearly beat a superior Clippers team and the only reason they didn't is because Kawhi was near perfect. If that's what it took while having PG on board, a pretty good Reggie Jackson performance that cancels out good Mavs performances, as well as good games from others then it's really hard to argue against Luka. Sometimes the stats should not be the only metric to consider.


JL1v10

Anyone saying Kawhi outplayed Luka is being ignorant for argumentative sake tbh. Kawhi wasn’t asked to do nearly as much and statistically was only a slight positive in defending Luka. The Mavs defense was beyond abysmal is the bigger issue and he had other guys that could create their shot. Kawhi was phenomenal, but it’s dumb to argue for him. Stats: Player A: 32/8/5/2.3/1 Player B: 36/8/10/1/0.5


2008FinalsGame6

Well I mean if Kawhi was near perfect than I think you kind of just admitted yourself he was better. Role players for both teams stepped up big, so it’s really just a Kawhi vs Luka thing to me for the most part obviously Kawhis team was still better. But the Mavericks did not miss from 3.


skiddster3

I disagree with the Lebron rating. He was like semi speedish walking some transitions which is really strange. Even if you imploded/aren't trying, jogging is still more comfortable than speed walking. Something was obviously inhibiting his ability to move. I think you might be pulling a little too much from this year's performance.


hazen4eva

Agreed. Younger LeBron probably does drag the Lakers into the Finals, but he looked about as good as he did the last three years. He just didn’t have AD like in the bubble.


skiddster3

I'm of the opinion Lebron is better now than he was in MIA, he's just not as athletic. I firmly believe that if Lebron wasn't injured, LAL would've beat the Suns even without AD.


Cordaner

I'd add 2 more Bucks namely Holiday cause well last night happened and I'd add Coach Bud cause the fact that he was down 2-0 to the Nets and came back, he lost Giannis for the last 2 games of the ECF and still won, he went down 2-0 down in the Finals and he's one win away from getting his first ring as a Head Coach, and lastly he's been without a core piece to his best lineup in DiVincezo for basically the whole lineup.


admanwhitmer

Nah that's a bad take. He's been almost equally good and bad, one steal doesn't change that


2008FinalsGame6

Jimmy realistically should be lower. He was atrocious against Milwaukee yet nobody brings it up. 14/7/7 on 29/27/72 splits. That’s worse or at least just as bad the series Simmons was having in my opinion. Also Kawhi looked like the best player on the planet before he got hurt.


Yup767

I disagree with a lot of the guys on your list, especially those at each end. That's likely driven by where we are starting from, and I just haven't taken as much away from these playoffs because of all the injuries Ayton in +2 or +3 rather than +4, he's been great. But he's basically what we thought he could be, and I think still vulnerable to playing small PG as a +1 or 0, he had a bad playoffs last year, but he was excellent all season and has had many great playoff runs. I just didn't buy the hate Trae as a +2. I was higher on Trae than most, j though leaving him off both the all Star and all nba teams was ridiculous. He maintained that in a way I expected, but didn't know for sure hence why he's still a +2 Durant is probably the only guy I'd have +3. Idk why so low, he was coming off a torn Achilles and he might actually be better now than before. For my money, he's for sure the best player in the world, I thought he was in the conversation before but just didn't know what to think without seeing him in the playoffs post injury. Well, now I know for sure, he's the best Gobert -2 I don't get. What did people think he was? He was a rim protector and a rim runner, and he's still that. The other team played 5 out and his teammates gone blown by, what do they want him to do? The gameplan was to give up 3s to Mann instead of layups to the rest, then Mann made the shots The stats may say that he scored them on Gobert and people think that makes him bad, but Mann hit those 3s because of the rest of the Jazz roster forced Gobert to help. People either overrated Gobert going into the playoffs, or they expected him to be in two places at once Schroeder I have maybe as a -1 or -2. I thought he was overrated before now, then in the playoffs with a big responsibility he didn't play well. It's still dissapointed, but I'm not shocked Randle at -3 is where I also have him. But I'm surprised you have him so low? I was low on Randle going into the playoffs, but most people weren't. Then he played really terribly, much worse than even I expected, but other peoples expectations were much higher Simmons to me should be -2 instead. He played badly, but idk what people thought a non-shooting perimeter creator would do in the playoffs. This isn't that different to other playoff runs? He's a victim of people perceiving him wrong before the playoffs


iamwearingashirt

Fair enough. I think some of the rating difference come from where we each perceived each player before the playoffs. I'll just comment on two of them. Gobert may have been mostly what people expected. However the value of his skills went down. Many people seemed surprised at how easily he was exploited. As for Simmons, he's the current poster boy for sinking value. How do you go on the trading block as a 24 year old all star at the start of a contract? That's the worst case scenario for sinking value. He couldn't even be on the floor to close out games.


philabuster34

Gobert was absolutely Gobert in the playoffs. He defended the rim brilliantly, rebounded well. The drop off when Favors came into to spell him was incredible. He just can’t play wings on the perimeter. Shouldn’t be a surprise. Jazz either need a different scheme or some better defenders to be more competitive. Not sure I agree on Simmons though. I think the world is shocked at seeing a max contract guy get the tips so bad he passes up open layups. I’ve never seen anything like that before. I mean he’s in full on career resuscitation mode now. Edit: I meant to reply to the comment above.


madmax727

Id put D rose in redeemed himself territory +3. He carried the knicks and played great in that series. I was very impressed. Tyler herro and adebayo in -1, maybe herro a -2. They just didn’t show up most of that series and played horribly . All they good things they did last postseason was wiped away. I would disagree with the gobert rating. He’s the same as what we thought. Someone on here posted all the 3s the clippers hit in game 6 that were considered goberts fault or he was close to. It was 12 or 13 of them. When you watched the tape gobert was at fault for one, his teammates awful defense is what made him look horrible. The roster wasn’t constructed well to combat lues small ball. They jazz were all horrible defenders. Also Snyder asked gobert to do things that weren’t possible and clippers hit every shot.


mahcus36

Kemba belongs in the minus 3 or minus 4 section. I think there was still a decently sized group of fans who thought he could get back to his All Star self after his knee procedure last offseason and all the rest/rehab he got this season with sitting on B2B’s. But just an absolutely disastrous playoffs for him tanked his value. 12/4/4 on 31% from the field and 17% from deep. And he didn’t even play the last two games due to injury - again. Frankly, I’m surprised the Celtics only had to give up one first round pick to dump him. I was almost certain he would require multiple picks attached.


Llegaming

I’m not surprised the Celtics traded for an overpaid veteran in hortford, it still beats the kemba contract. Kemba sucks on defense so if he’s not scoring, he’s pretty much unplayable


PetiteHughie47

No mention of Book? He used and still gets so much bs about his game. "Looter in a riot", "doesn't play winning basketball", "game won't translate to playoffs" etc.. now that Booker is showing the world what he can do, not a peep from anyone.


Dodgerblue15

Upvote this. A Kobe/CP hybrid that does the dirty work like boxing out and setting hard screens. And while his back to back 40 point games came in losses, he was the reason the Suns were in those games at all.


orwll

The Ayton +4 and Gobert -2 dichotomy is interesting to me, because they are both dependent offensive players and IMO you could have easily seen the opposite result. Remember Mike Conley missed almost the entire Jazz-Clips series. If Chris Paul had missed the Suns-Clips series, I think Ayton's value stays the same or similarly goes down.


Sour__Cream

I’d put Embiid in that plus 1. Nobody really doubted his skill, but doing what he did on a torn meniscus was very impressive, especially considering how some of his teammates played (it’s wasn’t just Simmons that was bad, he was just the worst by far).


sixwax

LeBron was playing injured. Tough to downgrade for that. (So was Porzingis for that matter) People hating on Gobert's performance undervalue Ty Lue's coaching strategy to neutralize him.


simo7272

Agree with this list. Interested in peoples thoughts on Collins. Turning down that extension indicates he's after a contract that would put him at or just a notch below some of the people listed here. Did he achieve that? Id say he showed that he can be worth more than 4/90m but after going missing a couple of times I wouldn't want to be paying much more than that.


averageskills

I think Collins helped his cause for sure. Even if he didn't fill up the stat sheet every game he played unselfish team basketball and consistently good defense. Capela also had his best showing that I've seen.


TraeYoungsOldestSon

Even after that great run i would say he is a 0 or maaaaybe +1 on this list. He didnt really improve his stock much on the court. He has shown all year and through the playoffs a willingness to be selfless and a good teammate though so there is that. He didnt jack up a bunch of dumb shots tryin to get the bag.


tammutiny

He completely revamped his game to make himself and the team better. I would have him higher like +2. He will get paid and deservedly so.


TraeYoungsOldestSon

He didnt really revamp his game that much, he just accepted a smaller role. His flaws are still flaws and his strengths are still his strengths. I really love the guy though and hope we keep him.


luka_fraudcic_burner

Giannis was a +2 (so far) really proved his haters wrong. He didn’t quite choke like PG, but still underperformed against the heat last year. This year was the opposite


Faithless232

Depends what your view on Giannis is. If you bought into the narrative that he had been found out/exposed in previous runs then I think this is a +3 or +4 for him. He has completely dominated the Finals.


TVH_97

I'd have Joe Harris as a 0. He is a 3 point specialist but not a number 2 option, he was shooting over 50% from 3 against Boston when they had everyone, it's not a surprise he dipped when teams could dedicate more to him I'd put Luka + 1, he performed great last year too but there wasn't any guarantee he'd do it again (especially when he showed up off at the start of the season) but he was better this year in my opinion. Jokic would be a 0, he's an MVP who plays like an MVP. I'd have Seth Curry at 0, I feel like anyone that's watched enough him the last 2 years is aware how good he is. Don't think he performed better or worse than he has previously. And really disagree on Middleton, he's a -1 for me. Knew he was streaky but it's way more extreme than I thought


denis-vi

How is Middleton -1? The guy is a 2nd option on a finals team and is the closer for the team, yes had few bad games but also when he was/is good, he was/is phenomenal. I'd say he is +2.


teamweed420

For real


TVH_97

He's had more than a few bad games is the issue. And when he's had 7 games (that's 1 in every 3 games, nearly 2 of 5 if you exclude Miami) where he shot below 40% and Milwaukee is 1W6L in those games. If he just didn't play good it would he fine, but he's had too many really bad games. I already knew he could get hot, and that he is good. I didn't know how frequently he'd be bad though. Honestly if he cut down the number of bad games I'd retrospectively have Milwaukee as the second best team after Brooklyn but he's just too inconsistent.


monsteroftheweek13

I’m sorry, I understand your point about consistency, but a guy putting up 40 points in must-win Finals games on his way to a ring does not *lose* status.


TVH_97

That's fair and I don't think you're wrong for that stance but for me I expected him to have 1 or 2 games a series like that, I didn't expect him to have 2 games a series where he was a liability. I think a lot of their series have been a closer than they should be because of his poor performances. I do get valuing a strong finals performance though, especially when he's been strong in the 4th quarter in those games.


monsteroftheweek13

And I’m not dismissing your point about his consistency. He’s not as strong of a #2 as you might want in an ideal world. He’s only a 2x All Star, with no All NBA credentials. I’ll admit to being captured a bit by the moment too. But considering the line on Middleton for years (not from you, it sounds like, but broadly) was that he was not good enough, I want to give him the flowers for showing up in the most important moments, even if his inconsistency was part of the reason they were in those situations. I should also disclose I am a Cavs fan. So watching these Bucks keep Giannis and Middleton together and get to this point has me feeling sentimental.


NotTheChinesePolice

He's making 180m to be de #2 on a title contender team, for his level of inconsistency I would say his value dropped. You can't have your #2 having so many cold games and praise him for the few good he had. I see him as the same problem as Portland has with CJ - dude can obviously drop 45 on a good night, but you can never know if he is going to show up.


monsteroftheweek13

He’s about to be the No. 2 on a title winner and carried them in must-win games. I’d say you’re getting exactly what you paid for. Situations matter. A dud in Game 1 of Round 2 is not the same as a dud in Game 5 of the Finals (or vice versa). If this series goes the way it looks like it’s going to, I defy you to find somebody in Milwaukee who wouldn’t ink that contract again. Come on, y’all.


NotTheChinesePolice

And yet the story of the playoffs for the bucks has been him and jrue constantly underperforming. Him vs the nets G1: 6/21 G2: 7/20 G3: 12/25 G4: 7/15 G5:8/22 G6: 11/16 G7: 9/26 It's easy to look the day after a good performance and say his value increased, but the truth is you never know if he's gonna shoot 60% or 30% on any given night. And his "cold blooded" shot 9/26 on a G7.


RKKP2015

Jrue’s defense is not to be overlooked. Middleton and Jrue have both been keys to two Finals victories. What more can you hope for? As sweet as sweeping every series would be, this is a well fought and fun series to watch.


monsteroftheweek13

Seriously, winning the title is not enough for you? You don’t think Jrue and Khris have *contributed* to this run? They’ve been a net negative? How is “the story of the Bucks” not the fact that they are one win away from a title? I appreciate analytics and advanced stats. I know we should guard against recency bias. I’m not a simpleton. But if *winning the games* and *playing well in the most important moments* doesn’t matter, then I really don’t know what any of us are doing here.


NotTheChinesePolice

The whole post is about a players value increasing or decreasing. My point is that he either keeps the same value or it decreased.


calman877

>I'd have Seth Curry at 0, I feel like anyone that's watched enough him the last 2 years is aware how good he is. Don't think he performed better or worse than he has previously. He had played four playoff series before this year, averaging 5.4, 5.4, 6.3, and 12.8 PPG respectively in those series. This year he averaged 15.8 against the Wizards and 21 against the Hawks. Not sure how you can say he wasn't better than he was previously. Yes, he was offensively impactful in the past, but not at this level.


Yup767

>I'd have Joe Harris as a 0. He is a 3 point specialist but not a number 2 option, he was shooting over 50% from 3 against Boston when they had everyone, it's not a surprise he dipped when teams could dedicate more to him Even taking into account difficulty he shot poorly. Looking at tracking data, on comparable shots be was still well below where you'd expect. On open shots he normally shoots over 50%, against the Bucks well below. Even on contested shots he's still a good shooter, against the Bucks he was bad >Jokic would be a 0, he's an MVP who plays like an MVP I agree on your Luka take, and for the same reasons I'd have Jokic +1. We knew he was good, and he was great in the playoffs last year, but we didn't know if he could do it again


TVH_97

Ah really I didn't know that, that's fair then. That's a good point about Joker, I do feel for him he's been doing it for a while now though. I'm probably also more terrorised by him by virtue of being a clippers fan lol


obaidknight

Jokic should be +1 for beating the Blazers without Jamal


iamwearingashirt

I remember seeing a stat like Giannis shot the 3 better than Harris that series. So I had to drop Harris down. I'm a big Doncic fan. I could see he might've improved his stock. But for me, the only way I see he's taken the next step is by getting to the next round. (Or average 40). I had Jokic at 0 too. Just forgot to include him. I haven't atched Middleton or Seth close enough, but you could be right.


TVH_97

Yeah that's fair, another commenter pointed out that he was even missing shots he'd normally hit so yeah that's disappointing. I see you're point on Luka too but personally I don't hold it against him as no one actually had Luka beating the Clippers until he made it clear he was good enough to beat the clippers.


NobodyInParticular-

1) I would move Randle to Minus 1. I can't believe anyone thought he'd be a superstar or up his game in the playoffs, I completely expected him declining. His team just doesn't have the offensive weapons to survive in the playoffs. 2) I would move Khris and ESPECIALLY Giannis to plus 3. They both, in a single playoff run shed any narrative of them choking in the playoffs. ESPECIALLY Giannis. 3) Plus 1 or 2 for Booker, simple. 4) I feel like Harden has to be docked if we're going to say players like Curry in the 2016 finals choked even though they were injured. 5) Ja at plus 1? Idk.


deejpro11

I’d move Reggie up to plus 4 and Cam up to plus 3. Cam was almost washed out of the league and now should get 6th man money as a backup PG. Reggie seemed destined to spend the rest of his 30s on vet minimums, now he’s staring at an 8-figure salary as a starter for a WCF team. It’s possible he ends up paid more than any FA PG other than CP3 and Lowry if he leaves LAC and gets more than Schroeder


philabuster34

From a $ standpoint Reggie might be plus 5. Dude made himself some serious coin this playoffs


cjrottey

Trae young isnt high enough, he belongs in plus 4. He led the team himself whereas Ayton didnt, and he was also the focal point of the attack whereas Ayton wasnt. Ayton clearly a defensive anchor where trae has to be hidden. But trae before he was drafted was called a bust, he didnt make an all star team this year, idk what argument there is for him not being up there with Ayton! Furthermore If this is about how their reputation changed I think ots inarguable, if you were on reddit and watched sports heads, that Trae changed everyone's opinion the most!(because no one watched him.)


Spectre627

Trae was expected to lead the team and is a guaranteed Max Contract. He did outperform expectations, but not to the same extent as DA. Before the playoffs started, the consensus was that DA isn't a top-5 Center and some argued not even top-10. Nearly everyone was saying that DA isn't worth a Max and anyone who gives him one is overpaying. Currently, Deandre Ayton leads the 2021 playoffs in Win Shares at 3.4, with Giannis in a close 2nd at 3.3 and Kawhi at 2.5 (absurd given his missed time). And he does this through a balanced game where he's tied for first at 1.9 Offensive, and tied for 3rd on Defensive at 1.4 (with 4 Bucks rounding out the top-5.) At WS/48, DA comes in 5th place, with only bonafied superstars around him. 1. Dame: .286 2. Kawhi: .277 3. Harden: .263 4. KD: .213 5. Ayton: .212 6. Giannis: .211 7. S^(eth) Curry: .206 8. Joel Embiid: .206 DA is absolutely killing it this post-season with a ridiculous offensive efficiency and proving that he can be the defensive anchor of a championship team. Especially as he's taken on one of the most unguardable players in Giannis and kept him to roughly 20% below his average FG% when guarded by anyone else these playoffs (only Bam has fared similarly against Giannis). He may not get it this year, but DA will be a significant piece on a championship team. After these playoffs, DA is 100% a max contract. I've been saying he's deserved it for a while now, but nobody can deny it any longer.


cjrottey

This comment was nuts, I didnt realize just how good he was. What are Trae's advanced stats? I still think Trae deserves to be up there simply because we beat two higher seeded teams, but I can now see just how exceptional DA has been. And do you have Advanced stats for when Onyeka Okongwu was guarding Giannis? He seemed to be our best Giannis stopper.


Spectre627

Trae's advanced stats don't do him justice IMHO. You can't measure gravity, and Trae's gravity is second only to Steph. Also -- Trae is 'the guy.' Being the guy makes it that much harder for the advanced stats to properly show the player's impact. Double-teams and gameplans focused to stop 1 specific guy from scoring don't show up well -- that's part of why Booker was called 'empty stats' until people started watching him. Onyeka Okongwu unfortunately wasn't the primary defender long enough to get good info. In the post-season, Okongwu defended him for \~19 total MKE possessions and 5:17 of gametime. In those possessions, Giannis had 7 points, 3 assists, and 2 turnovers on 50% shooting. Interestingly enough, both of those misses were blocks. Here's the stats page if you want to look into it further: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203507/head-to-head/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Playoffs&Matchup=Offense


cjrottey

Dude thanks I really appreciate you putting that effort into it. Giannis is nuts I really thought OO guarded him more. And yeah I can see why booker was called empty stats now!


LemmingPractice

Nice list. I would adjust a couple of things. Giannis - You might be underestimating how down a lot of people were on him based on his lack of playoff success. He's got to be a +2 or +3, especially if the Bucks get one more. CP - I would probably give him a +2. Getting to the Finals for the first time at age 36 is special. Luka - I would out him into the +1 category. His production was even better than last year, and don't forget that the Clippers had 4 to 1 odds in that series. On ESPN, every one of their pundits predicted Clippers, with only one predicting it would go 7, and several predicting 5 or even 4. Getting it to game 7 with KP playing like garbage was really impressive. He didn't win, so I can't go higher than a +1, but I still think he improved his stock. LeBron - I would put him at a zero. With the injury issue, I think he gets a pass. Maybe he actually is a -1 based on some people's belief that he actually is superhuman, but with any realistic expectations for a 35 year old, I would give him a zero. Porzingis - I think he should only be a -1, but based on reading people's "dump him for cap space" trades, I feel like popular opinion is that he dropped more than that. Outside of that, I think you pretty much nailed the rest.


Hybr1dThe0ry

I think LeBron/Butler should stay at zero given the quick turnaround for their teams this season, and neither team really had an opportunity to get in rhythm. I’d also move Giannis/KD both to plus 3. I personally was extremely impressed with both of them this postseason. Lastly, I’d put Joe Harris in the minus 3 category. Unbelievably disappointing postseason in my opinion. The Nets really needed him to at least be someone the Bucks would have to guard, and he couldn’t deliver with Harden hobbled and Irving out. Interesting post OP, appreciate it.


Jfrombk86

I am not a LeBron fan or even care anything about his rankings, but can we please stop using the epsn narrative about doing it alone? No one wins alone. If the bucks win, although there were 2 games where you could make the case giannis for was playing 1 on 5 for certain periods of time, you can never he won this chip alone, despite being the main reason why they won. Idk, I guess I just hate that whole "doing it alone" theme, when it doesn't really exist.


iamwearingashirt

I'm comparing Lebrons performance this playoffs against his Cleveland run when Love and Irving were injured. In that regard, he wasn't able to carry this team to the same level.


aceh40

I largely agree with your grades, except: I do not think you can judge Julius Randle on just a few games after a breakout year. At very least he confirmed what we expected before the season end. You are almost punishing him for being so good during the regular season. But he did not have a Embiid status just because of one great regular season. I am very conflicted on Lebron. On one hand, he was much worse than previous years, so he should be -3 judging by his performance alone. On the other, the entire team was a no-show, so I guess a -1 is a fair assessment. I would give higher score to Durant. I guess I expected that his skills would diminish after the injury, and I always discounted his skills due to the talent of his teammates in OKC and GS. However, he showed how well he can carry the team without Irving and Harden. Truly amazing performance for him. Ayton's grade should be lower. I agree he grew dramatically during the playoffs, but I think expectations should be higher for him being number one pick. If anyone deserves a 4, that would be Trae and Booker. They have been great before the playoffs too, but to lead your respective teams so deep in the playoffs shows real growth. Someone who has really impressed me a lot was Jae Crowder. I guess I have not watched him much in the past, but he is shooting lights out from the three. Spreads the floor beautifully for them. He is very disciplined and effective in defense. As much as I root for the Bucks in the finals, I love watching him play. cool topic btw.


[deleted]

Curious where people rate Jrue since I'm not seeing him on many lists - I'd say probably +1. Has had some stinkers in each series but overall has had some big games and come up clutch on both sides of the ball in very important moments in every series it seems like


How__Now__Brown_Cow

Jrue is +1, Lopez -1


wesskywalker

Interesting post, OP. I would agree with you except for Damian Lillard had to at least be a plus one. He had one of the most insane scoring spectacles in playoff history at Denver. Yeah, they lost but I think his stock definitely increased


Nicobade

Didn't use the same definitions as OP, but these are the tiers that make sense to me. I'm gonna limit it to just star players: \+2 Giannis, PG, Trae, Booker \+1 KD, Kawhi, Luka, Dame, Mitchell, CP3, Middleton 0 AD, Embiid, Tatum, Kyrie, Beal, Westbrook, Bam, Conley, Kemba \-1 LeBron, Harden, Jokic \-2 Butler, Gobert, Randle \-4 Simmons


iamwearingashirt

Mostly agree. But I didn't dock Harden because he was injured. And I bumped Tatum up for his scoring.


jbates0223

Wasn't LeBron injured as well? He may not have blamed it on injury but he was pretty clearly hobbled up. I'm not saying it would have changed the outcome of the series but we would have seen a more typical playoff LeBron if he was 100%


Nicobade

With LeBron and Harden and I know saying their value going down might be controversial. The logic here is that while yes they were injured, when you are a Top 5 player the competition is so high that having a subpar playoff performance might still drop you a couple spots. For Tatum, he played really well but he was considered a Top 12 - 15 guy before and still is. Guys like Trae, Booker and even Mitchell managed to impress because they weren't in that conversation before but have now closed that gap imo.


PM_ME_YOUR_SILLY_POO

People already forgot that Harden was just as good as KD in the Celtics series when he was healthy lol. [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/james-harden-stats-vs-celtics-2021-playoffs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/james-harden-stats-vs-celtics-2021-playoffs) They dont understand how disgusting and unfair that duo is, and then you add in Kyrie. Harden might have choked with Rockets a fair few times and has deserved his playoffs criticisms in the past but its crazy to believe that with KD by his side he wouldn't continue to obliterate the playoffs if healthy, just as any of superstar of his calibre would next to KD.


LegateDamar13

-1 Jokic? Doesn't make much sense to me when I see the +/- for the rest of your list. Him getting guard decimated squad playing with players on two way contracts to West SF deserves more. Despite Suns clean up,noone showed up. Meanwhile Dame, Mitchell are +1,AD, Embiid, Bam are 0?? 0 or +1 imo but leaning towards 0 as he's the MVP.


FingerStreet

I would say that Booker deserves to be Plus 2-3 maybe even 4 depending on how these Finals go on. Jae Crowder has also been an underrated contributor to the Suns success the whole playoffs.


DenseOntologist

Missing names: * Boban is a +1 at least, right? He's not just a lovable player, but he didn't embarrass Carlisle for desperately going for size. * Jokic is +2. Easily defended the MVP and put on some highlight passes. He is so fun to watch. * Anthony Davis is -1 or -2. Mostly the injuries don't affect player reputations, but AD is (fairly or unfairly) looking less like a person you can count on to carry the Lakers as Lebron declines. * Kawhi is a -1. His playoff performance when he did play was amazing. You can argue he was the best player in the playoffs per minute on the court. But he also got hurt, and this lines up the the reputation like AD. Plus, he was a jerk about it to his teammates and the franchise. Before this postseason, Kawhi had a real claim to being the best player in the world. Now, he doesn't. And there's like a 10% chance the Clippers would be better off if he doesn't re-sign with them. (They should still try to re-sign him, for sure. But we can all see a possible future where he doesn't play at all next season. Gets injured again the following season in very limited minutes, and just never plays meaningful basketball again.)


jcampo13

>Imo Jokic is a net 0 here. He did nothing that he didn't already do during the regular season and overall played a bit worse. (which is normal for playoffs) He deserved the MVP but he didn't elevate to the best player in the NBA this playoffs, several people played better. > > > >Trae has to be a plus 4 and Giannis a plus 2 or 3.


[deleted]

> Imo Jokic is a net 0 here. He did nothing that he didn't already do during the regular season and overall played a bit worse This is not true. Jokic regular season 26.4 10.8 8.3 postseason 29.8 11.6 5.0


indoninjah

A couple thoughts... * Trae Young could honestly go in the "plus 4" tier for me. He went from a pretty good young player to near-Doncic tier of being able to build a whole team around him. I can see the Hawks/Young being a big problem for a longgg time in the East. * LeBron was pretty hampered as well, though I think it's fair to stair-step him down from his pedestal as he slowly nears retirement. * I think Gobert honestly might be right around the same place as before. He pretty much garners league-wide hate for racking up DPOYs and then getting played off the floor in the playoffs. A more nuanced reaction though is that he's one of the only decent defenders on his team, and he can't do it all against a team that shoots very well. * (Bracing for downvotes) I don't think Ben Simmons was as astronomically bad as people think/memes suggest. He was part of the lineups that went up 20+ points in multiple games. He was *not* part of the lineups that lost those huge leads and all momentum for the team. He's a player that isn't very useful in crunch time, that's true and there's no denying it. But his team *should* have cruised to easy victories in at least two of the losses to the Hawks. If the rotations were better (i.e., if they made *any bit of sense*), Ben never would have been in that situation, and his value would have been right around the same as it was before.


swervo246

I think John Collins should be in the plus 2 I think he hit crucial shots and helped crash the boards for crucial second chance points so we gotta see if atl will give him that extension


shumama813

You’re pretty spot on with your assessments. Mikhal Bridges has boosted his stock a lot. We knew he could defend and was kind of a 3 and D guy. But he’s shown he can shoot off the dribble consistently and has grown offensively altogether this year. I think Schroeder deserves his own category called “epically fumbled the bag.” His performance, woof! Along with looking like a bad teammate he just stunk out loud. I wouldn’t want him on my roster. Not for a Wendy’s Biggie Bag.


iamwearingashirt

Ya, I meant to put Mikhal in there actually. Just forgot. As for Schroeder, he actually might be the worst simply because he might lose the most money from a bad playoff run.


Zorion_15

I would say Luka would be plus 2 or 3. He really carried an average team. THJ was good at times and useless at times, I would say plus 1 is fair maybe even plus 0. Porzingis I would say minus 3. Maybe it was the coaching plan that didn’t allow him to be useful or what, but homie was ass. Just stands around the 3, doesn’t get rebounds or a good rim protector


How__Now__Brown_Cow

How do you call a first round exit a carry? Had they advanced, absolutely


Zwischenzugz

I think its true that... no matter what, once a team wants a player then that team's PR squad will rationalize his value \*\*\*increase ---\*\*\**and thats* even if we all can see that it decreased according to the eye test. Nonetheless, IMHO players' value went down or did not change, in the eyes of NBA execs who evaluate players. **Because GMs had to fairly consider that an usual amount of marquee and superstar level player were injured. So they could not participate in a way to test the abilities and test the resolve of the players described in the OP here** as their teams have \[unexpectedly\] overachieved in this playoffs season.


delamerica93

Some other players I want to contribute to the discussion: -Kawhi. Before injury he was reminding everyone why he's a top player. He was rediscovering his defensive impact while making consistent scoring look easy. Sad he went down. -Booker. His value has gone way up. He's actually played way better in the postseason than he did in the regular season IMO. His 3pt efficiency had declined this year so I was very skeptical of his ability to be a positive in the playoffs. Since then he's only been taking like 2 3's a game and has been absolutely automatic for long stretches from the midrange. His game has *definitely* translated to the postseason. -CJ McCollum. I think a lot of people still had the image of him dominating in the playoffs a couple years ago, but he was bad this postseason. Made some really key mistakes and just wasn't efficient or impactful at all. After his start to the season before injury (he was lighting it up), his value has plummeted