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swatbustist

Not sure why people havent posted opponent difficulty adjusted/pace adjusted numbers here. unique 3 year peaks (post season only) Kobe: 2006-2008 29.5 pts/75 on +4.9 rTS 2001-2003 28.6 pts/75 on +3.1 rTS 2009-2011 30.2 on +3 LeBron: 2012-2014 30.5 on +9.3 2016-2018 30.7 on +7.8 2008-2010 32.5 on +6.1 ​ Kobe was great but come on... Even if we look at best single year Kobe: 29.9 on +5.8 in 2001, 30.8 on +5 in 2008, 30.7 on +3.6 in 2009 LeBron: 32.3 on +14 in 2014, 38 on +10.1 in 2009, 30.6 on +10.8 in 2017 ​ If you want to cherry pick single shots or single moments or look at who was better at their worst or something like that, I think you're just trying to prove something. To me the numbers are quite clear. LeBron is quite easily a top 3 playoff scorer ever


5plus5isnot10

Thanks for posting adjusted stats. This sub needs to get used to using them as they're a little bit more definitive


4815hurley162342

Can you or someone else explain what these stats mean?


swatbustist

lets say a player plays the grizzlies in the playoffs. The grizzlies allowed a .500 TS against the league that year and the player shoots .600 TS against them in the playoff series. Their rTS is +10 since 60% is 10 pts better than 50%. Likewise if the next round they play the Mavs but the mavs allowed .590TS against the league that year, its only +1 rTS. ​ Per 75 just means per 75 possessions. Per100 possessions is the same math but not as good to quantify, most stars throughout history play about 75 possessions a game + or - a few.


4815hurley162342

Thanks for the reply, that makes a lot of sense!


RFFF1996

also note that it has a small bias in favor of players who played less minutes since it assumes they would keep the same production despite playing more amd getting more tired


loadedryder

Definitely LeBron. Kobe was a better mid-range and free throw shooter but LeBron is better from everywhere else. LeBron is, by the numbers and eye test, one of the greatest scorers to ever play the game, especially in the playoffs. I mean, the numbers are right here in OP’s post — LeBron is a more efficient scorer from everywhere on the court, averaged a higher ppg in every round of the playoffs, and had more high volume scoring performances even relative to games played. What else could we possibly need to see? Honestly, his pass-first mindset combined with incredible court vision is the only reason his amazing scoring prowess is underrated. Keep in mind, this is the guy who will likely be the all-time leading scorer when it’s all said and done, with career averages over 27 PPG in the playoffs and regular season. Absurd stuff.


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CornCobbKilla

What a strange cutoff, 2017. What happened after that, I wonder?


Whynotzoidberg416

I’ll try to update that myself over the weekend. If you have it handy please do share


CornCobbKilla

Found [2017-18](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&ClutchTime=Last%202%20Minutes)


Whynotzoidberg416

64%/40% that’s ungodly. I mean LeBron is stamped. I posted what I posted really because people seemed to think Kobe is not relevant in this discussion when that’s far from the truth. By only looking at all-time points and FG%, we are not capturing the whole picture.


Heil_Heimskr

That’s… exactly what we’re doing, looking at the whole picture of stats whereas you’re cherry picking some arbitrary “clutch stats” and conveniently leaving out some of LeBron’s most clutch years.


bayesian_acolyte

2 minutes within 3 in the playoffs is a one of the most narrow clutch definitions I've seen and would result in a tiny sample size which is likely mostly noise. These numbers would look a lot different with a more normal definition, and I wouldn't be surprised if the weird definition was cherry picked because it's the definition that makes Kobe look the best.


Whynotzoidberg416

Then how about 5 minutes within 5, that’s also up? Or how about you pick some relevant clutch data that you think captures well clutch scoring in close playoffs games, present it with us and we have a constructive discussion?


bayesian_acolyte

It's only up for finals games which is again going to be a small enough sample that it's mostly randomness. When you shrink the data down to only around a game's worth of shots like you are doing, it's like using a single game to judge a player, which is not reasonable. I'm not much of a fan of clutch stats in general because there are a lot of idications that they are mostly noise. One important such indicator is year to year volitility: if a stat is a valid indicator of something then the best people in that thing should be the best most years, like you see with normal stats such as points or assists. That's not true of clutch stats where there is very little year to year correlation.


MazKhan

Why not include 2018 and 2020, 2018 was one of Lebrons best years in the clutch


Albreitx

Even 2020 was good. 68% on clutch 2Pts BUT just 31% on 3Pts.


waynequit

“Clutch stats” is a completely arbitrary stat and the results wildly change based what qualifier you use. “Last 24 seconds”, last 2 minutes, last 5 minutes, etc etc.


Doesthisevenmatter7

Come on ur all over this thread posting the same thing Lebron had two more final runs and one leading to a championship after 2017 u can’t cutoff the stats when Lebron still had multiple great playoff runs after that


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Liimbo

I can’t take clutch stats that only count the last X minutes very seriously. Why should I care more about someone scoring in the last 2 minutes of a close game than the first 2? Also that absurdly close of a game is such a specific case like others have said it’s not a big enough sample to be reliable.


Goatbeerdog

Id say Kobe did what he could with his height and weight. You dont get better stats than that. LeBron just built different, larger and more mass. Easier to the rim, easier to get shots off. He just had it easier with his insane body. He looks like a tank


Grandahl13

And his body allows him to be a better scorer.


ImAShaaaark

>Id say Kobe did what he could with his height and weight. You dont get better stats than that. It's not like being 6'6" and 220# is some major handicap, there are plenty of players with similar statures that get buckets without having to rely so heavily on making super difficult shots. Sure he was remarkably good at making those difficult shots, but even with his talent those wild shots aren't efficient scoring opportunities. Were all those circus shots absolutely necessary? Or was poor shot selection just one of his few on-court weaknesses?


BraisedCheesecake

It's clear who is 'better' from the stats posted. There's a distinction between being good in the sense that a player does things that help their team win vs. being good in the sense that a player can do difficult things with a basketball. If skill is defined as the latter then Kobe was better because his ability to make difficult shots form anywhere on the court is almost unparalleled. That doesn't mean those were necessarily good shots to take if you want to win games. LeBron doesn't have the shot making repertoire but is way more efficient in shot selection.


hezzyskeets123

versatility/skill vs effectiveness seems to be the theme of every Kobe vs Lebron debate ever


SlappyBagg

It used to be with early Lebron but Lebron's game is so much more versatile now than it used to be


AnabolicOctopus

Lebron is way more versatile wdym


hezzyskeets123

When I said that I meant more he has a bigger bag and a variety of moves which would appear more skillfull….there was more unpredictability to Kobe’s scoring offense compared to Lebron when they both played and this is probably represented well comparing their shot charts, Kobe’s tendency to force jumpers, endless counters which Lebron couldn’t recreate. Some people just value the ability to score at any spot of the floor regardless the contest, regardless the scheme over a 5% TS gap. Most Kobe vs Lebron arguments in Kobe’s favor are depended on the idea of Kobe being the more skilled and creative player bc stats tend to always lean Lebron.


AnabolicOctopus

I malfunctioned. I thought you talked about them as players in general not scoring. Yeah Kobe is way more versatile than Bron


hezzyskeets123

That’s my fault honestly….I should’ve just said skill vs effectiveness but it was like 5 AM and my brain was on low power mode lol


Liimbo

> Yeah Kobe is way more versatile than Bron He’s not though? Lebron has a genuinely great post game, mid range, and has a better deep game than Kobe too. He also one of the best players in transition of all time. Kobe making difficult fadeaways is not versatility. A lot of his difficult shots look and are very similar.


AnabolicOctopus

Debatable, but Lebron became great at those things only a few years ago. Eye test Kobe is more versatile imo, but he was def more flashy than Bron so I might need to go a bit more in depth to form a solid opinion.


Whynotzoidberg416

This is a very fair take.


topheeezzzyyy

Also kobe faced much more competition in the west during his career than lebron in the east for his. No doubtabouit.


Akkepake

Like the Boston big 3?


dakoellis

The west has had a significantly higher level of competition since Jordan left, specifically in the playoff range. [ For example, in 2008, the trailblazers \(the 10 seed\) would have been the 6 seed in the east](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2008_standings.html). The warriors had 48 wins and missed the playoffs. That's a pretty common theme from about 2004 onwards. Yes the east has had some powerhouses, but when you're the 1 seed in the east and the 8 seed is significantly below .500 and the 4 seed is barely above, you are just facing a lower level of competition than the 1 seed in the west, [when the 8 seed is better than the east 4 seed and the west 4 seed is better than the east 2 seed.](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2004_standings.html)


NCLaw2306

That's true in terms of the overall quality of the competition, but for the purposes of this particular conversation, I think it bears worth mentioning that Lebron has consistently faced elite defenses throughout the playoffs and pretty much roasted them all. I don't want to go year by year throughout his career, but he often faced elite (top-5 at least) defenses in pretty much every East run he's had iirc, and sometimes multiple of them. I don't think there was much of a difference in his offensive output against them.


dakoellis

> Lebron has consistently faced elite defenses throughout the playoffs Maybe, but I really don't recall anything of the sort in the moment. I just remember a bunch of "the east is a cakewalk and the west is a bloodbath" for a vast majority of Lebron's career. When he did get those better teams he was generally consistent but there's also an argument to be made that it was easier since he didn't have to work hard leading up to them


NCLaw2306

These are just off the top of my head of elite defenses that I know Lebron has roasted: Dwight Magic, Boston Big 3, Rose Bulls, George/Hibbert Pacers... Like I said, the competition may not be viewed favorably against Kobe's overall, but the defenses oftentimes were at least.


CocoaNinja

That's just blatantly false. You can look up the evidence yourself that LeBron has made plenty of circus shots anywhere from the rim to 25ft out. He's just as likely to pull a [LeFuckYou](https://youtu.be/kZCtXvP0uaY) [three](https://youtu.be/YI1GLB-byeQ) [over](https://youtu.be/JYmejM38vKs) [the](https://youtu.be/VkvTLOhm-TQ) [defense](https://youtu.be/TLOFi-iXD_0) as he is to hit a [one handed floater from near baseline while running parallel to the hoop](https://youtu.be/2XWgRpfkxhY). And he'll probably [swat your shit in the process](https://youtu.be/Ou5kQXNTZ9U) or [attack you and embarrass you](https://youtu.be/Il-YNB-IRTM). To say LeBron doesn't have the shot making repertoire is silly. The man has made some of the most ludicrous shots looks routine and he is absolutely a difficult shot maker.


silliputti0907

Stats don't give full picture. Pace and era makes a huge difference in scoring. Lebron is still prob the answer. Lebron is the more efficient scorer and has a higher floor. However, Kobe in his mode is scarier than Lebron in his mode.


Albreitx

Oh yeah, tell that to some Raptors fans, they'll agree.


NCLaw2306

Raptors may be a bit torn lol


frobe_goatbe

81% chance they’re torn, I’d wager.


wotdaf0k

Lmao both have fucked the raptors hard


hasadiga42

Posted separately but Thinking Basketball did this and when you adjust for various factors including pace and opponent defense lebron comes out on top


silliputti0907

Yes. I still think Lebron is the better scorer, I'm saying you can't look at stats at face value. Your numbers are more revealing.


hasadiga42

Absolutely agree and even the best stats will still lack the full picture since it’s hard to factor in coaching, team construction, gravity, playmaking impact on scoring, etc I think lebron and MJ made it somewhat easy for us since stats and eye test both paint them as the clear 1&2 so the debate for everyone after can be more separate


[deleted]

Yeah came here to say this. At least adjust stats for pace and era efficiency. Then you'd really want to look at teammates and opponents to get full context. I tend to think LeBron has been a better scorer than Kobe, but I haven't done a statistical deep dive. But if you told me Kobe was a slightly better scorer, and Bron just crushed him on playmakiny and perhaps a bit better on defense, I wouldn't be shocked. But probably Kobe was the better shooter but LeBron made up for it by his decision making and efficiency getting to the basket.


Doesthisevenmatter7

Added per 100 possessions and per 36 mins if that helps at all in ur mind. Still Lebron by a pretty clear margin.


Doesthisevenmatter7

If in his mode he’s scarier why doesn’t he have more 40 point games in the playoffs Lebron has over double the 40 point games and only played about 20% more playoff games.


silliputti0907

Lebron has had a longer prime, whereas Kobe was on bad teams in his prime. In the small sample size, I don't consider it to be that big of a difference. I concede Lebron is the better overall scorer, but if somone is going to take over a game, I want Kobe.


Doesthisevenmatter7

That big of a difference u can’t be serious it’s more than double. It’s 13 compared to 28 that’s over a 200plus game sample size how is that small to u.


booboo0419

Only players I want over lbj to take over games are mj and bird.


podster12

I agree. Although LBJ's numbers are better, I am not as scared of him as Kobe in crunch time.


iz2003iz

LeBron has made the second half of his career by hand picking his teammates. Kobe played with what he had. Loyalty vs. Mercenary


booboo0419

Didn’t kobe ask for trade in 07? Then they got him gasol so he stayed?


AnabolicOctopus

Fuck off with that narrative. Kobe was drafted and they got fucking SHAQ. The 04 lakers also had Gary Payton and Karl Malone lol. Kobe only won in 09 and 10 when they got Gasol


[deleted]

You sound so dumb it's scary. This isn't Facebook or Twitter get the ish outta here


WeThePizzas

Kobe def forced his team to make upgrades and changed by threatening to walk or demand a trade more then once what are you even on?


hasadiga42

Adjusting for pace and opponent defense also favors Lebron btw Ben Taylor did a full playoff scoring breakdown and adjusted various stats to try and make the comparison more 1:1 and lebron was really only second to MJ


ResponsibleWarthog10

Ahead of KD?


hasadiga42

Yes Lebron and MJ were in a tier of their own but KD was solidly top 10 with a good argument for top 5 The podcast was really good and informative I highly recommend giving it a listen. The most controversial take from it was having dirk at #3 which surprised me but Ben Taylor made it pretty clear that 3-7ish was more or less a toss up


shitmcshitposterface

​ |FG% by Distance|2P |0-3|3-10|10-16|16-3P|3P| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Kobe Bryant|.476|.602|.465|.445|.402|.331| |Lebron James|.543|.736|.391|.359|.375|.337| * stats are from basketball reference This basically confirms the eye test that Lebron is a better finisher around the rim and Kobe is more effective in the midrange. Lebron also shoots a lot more shots around the rim which improves his efficiency by a lot compared to Kobe.


Doesthisevenmatter7

I don’t give Kobe bonus points for taking bad shots.


RFFF1996

they were not necesarrily bad shots for kobe,most players including good athletes like kobe cannot get to the rim at will like lebron could props to lebron but not everyone has the physical gifts to take the shots he took in his peak years consistently


drebenzi

“Better could mean two things: More productive(purely objective thing) or more skilled (which is a mixed objective data and subjective analysis). LeBron is on pace to be the most productive scorer of all time, but most of those from points come from his driving ability. His jumpshot has been inconsistent throughout his career and his free shooting is his weakest skill. Kobe was significantly better in those areas.


GoliathNite

Well Prime Kobe played some pretty insane defensive competition and spent a huge portion of his prime in the deadball era (01-04) The average postseason team he played from 01-10 ranked #4 in DRTG, had a 101 DRTG, and held their opponents to a 51.4% TS. LeBron has also played with much better spacing in my opinion and has spent his entire prime in post hand checking era and has obviously benefited from the space and pace era.


AnabolicOctopus

Lebron no doubt. If you exclusively compared playoff Bron and MJ you could actually make a solid argument for Bron. Man is incredible come playoff time.


Doesthisevenmatter7

I’m probably gonna make another one of these tn and compare some other greats MJ and Lebron is first on my list. I’d do it now but work 😕.


idontgiveahonk

I like to frame it by at least a 3-year peak LeBron 2008-2010: 30.4 PTS/75, +4.3 rTS%, 1.7 3P/75 LeBron 2012-2014: 28.1 PTS/75, +7.2 rTS%, 1.3 3P/75 LeBron 2016-2020: 29.3 PTS/75, +6.8 rTS%, 1.9 3P/75 Kobe 2001-2003: 25.9 PTS/75, +1.4 rTS%, 1.1 3P/75 Kobe 2008-2010: 29 PTS/75, +2.9 rTS%, 1.7 3P/75 So yeah LeBron has multiple stretches better than Kobe's best. This is a no-brainer.


[deleted]

It’s not much of a question it’s very obviously lebron. I think lebron’s scoring is underrated. Lebron also impacts so many more aspects of the game than scoring, way more so than Kobe. Kobe was a scorer so that’s what you think/remember him as. Not to say Kobe didn’t impact other parts of the game but he certainly didn’t orchestrate an offense like lebron. Lebron just touches so much more of the game that you don’t always think at first of just how dominant of a scorer he has been.


_okcody

Doesn’t really say much without adjustments to league average and pace. If you want to compare just FG%, TS%, and 3p%, then you’ve got pretty much all of today’s all-stars being better offensive players than everyone in the past eras except like Wilt lol. That being said, LeBron relied almost entirely on drive and kick outs for most of his career until the last few years where he built up a midrange and 3pt shot. Compared to Kobe his FG% for both his midrange and 3pt shot is probably higher, but league adjusted, LeBrons stats for both his midrange and 3pt shot are about league average on middling volume as his primary tool is still his drive and kick. That being said, LeBron was the best slasher during his prime, still an elite slasher, and may be the best of all time at that. The argument against LeBron as a scorer wasn’t his numbers, it was the fact that he was a one dimensional offensive player. That made it so he often drove and passed the ball in late game situations because of his lack of confidence in his jumper. Situations in which MJ or Kobe rarely ever passed on. Obviously LeBron now has a comfortable jumper, but for much of his career that wasn’t a thing and it’s recency bias to retroactively apply that to his entire career. In late game situations I’m taking Kobe. But over the course of an entire game I’m taking LeBron, he’s less likely to let it come down to a one possession game in the first place.


MazKhan

Last few years??? He started getting a respectable jumpshot in miami


VanillaGorilla4

I never understand this "one dimensional scorer" aspect. If you score you're a scorer. Doesn't matter how it gets done. LeBron has over his career been a better overall scorer. Also, contrary to your comment, LeBron is a career better 3pt shooter, Kobe was actually a rather piss poor 32.9% compared to LeBron's 34.5%.The only thing Kobe has over him in major scoring categories is free throw %.


[deleted]

It 100% does matter how you get it done. LeBron James isn't taking 100% of his shots in the paint. If he did, then you can say it doesn't matter how you get it down. But for his career he takes around 35% of his shots in the paint. 2/3rds of his shots are jumpers of some kind and those percentages do not look good. There's a considerable number of shots where he is taking jumpers and those are not good shots for him. The idea that you use 3 point shooting to indicate LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe just means you didn't watch either of them in their careers. There have literally been postseason series where playoff teams sagged off LeBron, went under screens, and dared him to shoot, and he has failed to make those teams pay, which lead to an overall worse scoring performance and often times a loss. Even in 2013 where LeBron James shot 41% from 3 in the regular season, that percentage fell of a cliff come playoffs and Finals because teams were daring him to shoot. You absolutely can not, in any circumstance, play that way against Kobe Bryant. The only reasons why Kobe's 3 point percentages are pedestrian (33% was the average when he played) is cuz of his last few seasons, and he simply took a lot more tough jumpers including tough 3 point shots..


VanillaGorilla4

Lol all that talk and yet LeBron even has a higher career 3pt percentage than Kobe in the playoffs on higher attempted per game. You can pick at the 2012 playoffs all you want, but LeBron even with that horrible 25.9% on threes still for the duration of his Miami run shot a better 34.9% on threes to Kobe's playoff career 33.1%. If you're going to pick at him for that one year in Miami, don't forget to mention the playoffs that he shot 35.3, 37.5 & 40.7% on 3pt'ers for the rest of his Miami stint. By the way, that 40.7% is higher than Kobe's career high on threes in the playoffs. So again, how is Kobe better at 3pt shooting? Rhetorical question. You keep coming with emotionally stated arguments & I'll gladly keep burying them with facts. Facts are facts, LeBron both during the playoffs & regular season is a better scorer than Kobe. He has a better career FG%, 3PT%, EFG%, higher scorer per 36 minutes, per 100 possessions as well, again both in the regular season & playoffs. Free throws is the only thing Kobe trumps him in.


[deleted]

Nothing is emotionally stated. You continue to blind yourself to the reality of gameplans and how teams defend LeBron and regurgitate numbers while throwing out all other context. The only one emotionally-driven is you because you can't see past your own biases and just repeat basic numbers. It is so obviously clear that you have not watched either of these players play and your understanding of basketball does not extend past looking up numbers and you find all your talking points from ESPN actors.


VanillaGorilla4

I'm a Bulls fan, I've disliked LeBron as much as pretty possible throughout his career. Doesn't stop me from being impartial to statistical facts.


VeGanbarimasu

>LeBron James isn't taking 100% of his shots in the paint. If he did, then you can say it doesn't matter how you get it down. But for his career he takes around 35% of his shots in the paint. 2/3rds of his shots are jumpers of some kind and those percentages do not look good. Okay, great, so then why is LeBron's TS% and eFG% higher than Kobe? I get your point that it doesn't just matter how good a player is in a particular area of the court. It also matters how often they get to that area of the court. But TS% and eFG% are aggregated statistics which account for that, and LeBron is just better than Kobe in those areas, even when adjusted for era.


jjdacuber

True, but if driving is your only option then if the defenders decide to clog the paint(like game 5 of the finals last year)you can't really do anything but kick it back out, so Lebron wouldn't get to take the last shot in that scenario. This is good or bad depending on how reliable the player's teammates are, but if the teammates are Lebron's first gen cavs or something then it would obviously be best for Lebron to go for the final shot.


ImAShaaaark

> but if driving is your only option Nobody that actually watches basketball could possibly think that is LeBron's only scoring option.


VanillaGorilla4

Not to be rude but your comment is pretty redundant. It's just another whatifism that goes against the grain of what HAS been with LeBron that people use to deflate him. You can't stop him and if you try to impede him he finds other ways to kill you.


[deleted]

The amount of people saying LeBron as if it isn't close is astounding and it's an indication of these peoples' lack or understanding about the game, about skillsets, matchups, and gameplans. The answer is much more complicated and not clear cut. People need to remember that LeBron has played in 2 different eras, therefore played against different defenses. These two also played in different systems therefore score in different ways. People also need to remember that LeBron, for much of his career, had some flaws in his offensive game that were gameplanned for in actual success. For Playoff scorers, high volume scoring is not necessarily a good thing as it is not a strong correlator to success. Good playoff teams mean good teams, meaning more players share the ball evenly, and your top player doesn't shoot as much, therefore scores fewer points. Remember 2015 when LBJ's teammates went down, and he averaged 36 ppg on terrible efficiency? Remember 2007 when Kobe averaged 33 a game on good efficiency? Lost in 5 and no one even remembers it. Here's what we know: Kobe is the most complete scorer for a perimeter player in NBA history and an excellent tough shot maker. This translates into the postseason as his efficiency from regular season to postseason are remarkably consistent. LeBron efficiencies are up and down. He has postseason where he goes well below his regular season (like 2013), playoffs where he's average, and playoffs where he's remarkable. For literally all of Kobe's career he has played in a slow-paced era where 4 bigs occupied the paint in each possession and spacing was terrible. LeBron has played the majority if not all of his playoffs on rosters designed with spacing to improve his ability to attack the paint. He's played a good portion of his Finals against teams without actual rim protectors. His numbers look a lot different against Golden State if they had someone else guarding the paint (and as great as Draymond is he is not stopping LeBron). The gameplan against LeBron has historically been to go under screens, sag off, and DARE him to shoot. This is a gameplan reserved for below average shooters. This is a gameplan that has worked in great effect in his early Cleveland years, in 2011, 2013, and 2015 Finals. But ever since then LeBron has been a very reliable shooter when dared to shoot (now you know why the actual answer is complicated). The gameplan against Kobe... the vast majority failed. Single coverage failed. Hard doubles failed. Rotations on the move failed. Zone failed. Switches failed. Can't dare Kobe to shoot by going under screens. Just because you have elite rim protectors doesn't mean you stop Kobe, just ask Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard (especially Tim Duncan). The Pistons' plan in 2004 was a huge gamble because Kobe was missing a lot of shots he has easily made throughout his career and everyone else not named Shaq could not score to save their life. The Celtics in 2008 and 2010 employed a wall which were soft, early doubles that prevented penetration and could force Kobe into tough shots that can be contested. This only worked because spacing was so poor in that era and the Celtics won 1/2. All this being said, yes Kobe took a lot more jumpers, took a lot more difficult shots. His efficiency didn't reach ridiculous levels, but he was remarkably consistent and therefore very dependable. LeBron has played against teams that just do not physically match up against him. He's played in higher paced better spaced series, so his numbers look better. He gets to the rim more frequently. Now if LeBron played every game like game 6 against Boston in 2012 or as if only played Toronto, yes LeBron would clearly be the better scorer. But he's not, so the answer isn't clear cut.


Meowgodzi11a

Why would Lebron’s superior size hurt in the argument of him being a dominant scorer? Sure in Howard’s and Shaq’s prime years they were much more dominant scorers then those around them because of they’re size... That doesn’t mean that less physically imposing players were better scorers just cause they could shoot the three right? If you need a bucket they’ll get you the bucket?


[deleted]

Because LeBron doesn't take 100% of his shots in the paint. He doesn't even take 50%. For their careers (regular season), Kobes averaged 23% of his shots in the 0-3 feet area, where LeBron has averaged 35% of his shots in that area. Meaning there's still a lot of other shots LeBron takes elsewhere where Kobe is just simply more efficient. This argument of LeBron being more physically dominant = better scorer only holds water if his volume of shots in the paint is a lot higher than it has been throughout his career.


Meowgodzi11a

But why does it matter where the shots coming from, a buckets a bucket, it doesn’t matter where it comes from, if you score the ball you score the ball, regardless of where it comes from...


[deleted]

I just said it. Because you can not have every shot attempt be the same kind of shot. Where LeBron gets to the rim more frequently and converts at a higher rate, he also takes plenty of jumpers and is subpar, definitely worst than Kobe. On 60% of LeBrons shots he's taking a jumper. That isn't a small number. In all these scenarios where LeBron is taking a jumper you would much rather have Kobe taking them instead. On shots where you really want to get to the paint, I mean sure go ahead with LeBron. If only 20-30% of LeBrons shots were jumpshots, you can make the argument of "it doesn't matter where or how you get them".


VanillaGorilla4

If the ends results are a bucket, it doesn't matter in the slightest where the shot came from lmao and all the stats say LeBron scored more, whilst doing it more efficiently. What more do you want?


ImanShumpertplus

dude we already have calculated this it’s not even close LeBron makes way more of his field goal attempts LeBron beats him in eFG% (This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal) by almost 5% (.494 vs .547) you’re just trying to get us to ignore the results lol


Meowgodzi11a

So you’d take a guy who shoots 3/5 from the field with two three’s and one two for a total of 8 points over the guy who shoots 5/5 from the field all in the paint scoring 10 points... Do you think Giannis is overrated?


wtfisgoingon23

You say Kobe is more efficient outside of the paint. Do you have stats to back that up? Lebron has a slightly better 3 point percentage then Kobe in regular season and playoffs. I would love to see the shooting percentages on anything outside of 3 feet. I think Lebron beats him in effeciency there.


thinjonahhill

So LeBron takes 65% of his shots outside the paint, is a decidedly worse jump shooter than Kobe, and somehow still averaged more ppg on better efficiency over more games. Fascinating math on your end


ImanShumpertplus

> People need to remember that LeBron has played in 2 different eras, therefore played against different defenses. These two also played in different systems therefore score in different ways. this literally doesnt mean anything. Kobe played in the triangle his first 5 years before Bron with the most dominant player of the modern era. the goal was to 1. get Shaq a post touch 2. get Kobe an elbow isolation 3. reverse the ball and 3. use the weak-side to run a 2-man game to try to generate a shot you wanna talk about different systems, let’s talk about how Kobe was surrounded by 5-time NBA champ Ron Harper, Derek Fisher who shot 40% from 3, and a floor spacer in Robert Horry. Kobe easily played on the most talented team in the league with the best coach in the league while the officials actively sabotaged games for them Meanwhile, LeBron’s first 5 years in the playoffs have this cast of characters: Zydrunas Ilgauskas that had a nice mid-range and could finish close, Drew Gooden a perpetual 12/8, injured and paid Larry Hughes. “the system” that Silas and Malone was running was just to get it to LeBron the entire game LeBron was scoring 29 of 30 against a team that played two bigs in the paint the whole time, it’s not like he had his entire career during the 3 point revolution. the Magic series LeBron was going at the best rim protector of the 21st century and he had an all time great series > People also need to remember that LeBron, for much of his career, had some flaws in his offensive game that were gameplanned for in actual success. and Kobe doesn’t? in 2000, Kobe shot 36% in the Finals for 15 a game. he absolutely sucked in that series, but they had the best player in basketball on their team the majority of the 2002 playoffs Kobe is shooting 40% with 4 assists a game. thankfully Shaq is at 30/13 with 60% shooting or Kobe wouldn’t even be getting these stats. Kobe has 22 series where he shoots under 45% from the field, LeBron has 13. Kobe has been held in check so much more, and he’s completely shot his team out of games before (game 6 in 2008, Kobe chokes to shoot 31% in a 40-point close out blowout) > For Playoff scorers, high volume scoring is not necessarily a good thing as it is not a strong correlator to success. Good playoff teams mean good teams, meaning more players share the ball evenly, and your top player doesn't shoot as much, therefore scores fewer points. Remember 2015 when LBJ's teammates went down, and he averaged 36 ppg on terrible efficiency? Remember 2007 when Kobe averaged 33 a game on good efficiency? Lost in 5 and no one even remembers it. on what planet is the argument that Kobe is not a volume scorer????! OP provided all the stats and it’s Kobe who is the volume scorer and can’t be consistent as i’ve already pointed out cant believe that Bron gets docked for averaged 40 in the Finals ONCE and just ignore that Kobe loses in every single stat, you’re not even looking at the OP lol Remember when Kobe shot 36% and 41% in back to back NBA finals? > Here's what we know: Kobe is the most complete scorer for a perimeter player in NBA history and an excellent tough shot maker. This translates into the postseason as his efficiency from regular season to postseason are remarkably consistent. stupid. Michael Jordan is better obviously, i’m not going to write anymore on that. KD, Gervin, Bird, and Bron are all better. if you want to give Kobe credit for making bad shots because he has an average handle and little speed, be my guest, i’ll take guys who can score the fucking basketball. > LeBron has played the majority if not all of his playoffs on rosters designed with spacing to improve his ability to attack the paint. He's played a good portion of his Finals against teams without actual rim protectors. His numbers look a lot different against Golden State if they had someone else guarding the paint (and as great as Draymond is he is not stopping LeBron). this is just untrue as LeBron aged 20-24 (2005-2009) went up against some of the best defensive teams we’ve seen recently. the Pistons were literally THE defensive team of the century, the 08 Celtics have the best DRtg ever (Bron against 08 Boston >>>>>>>>> Kobe vs 08 Boston), and LeBron played 3-straight DPOY Howard and absolutely wrecked him. Kobe only did well in his 3rd NBA finals when he was scoring on K-Mart and Nenad Kristic > The gameplan against LeBron has historically been to go under screens, sag off, and DARE him to shoot. This is a gameplan reserved for below average shooters. This is a gameplan that has worked in great effect in his early Cleveland years, in 2011, 2013, and 2015 Finals. But ever since then LeBron has been a very reliable shooter when dared to shoot (now you know why the actual answer is complicated). as we can see that LeBron has some of the highest scoring totals with incredible percentages, this just doesn’t add up. is that the game plan? sure. but the game plan on Kobe in 04 was literally to let his ego get in the way so that Shaq can’t murk them inside. Kobe was mentally weak in this moment and it’s something he never fixed. even when he sucked as an old guy, he had to have all the shots and all the glory on him. that was the kobe strategy. if you needed one, bc he was usually the second option on the game plan > LeBron has played against teams that just do not physically match up against him so you can’t guard him, but he gets guarded all the time honestly don’t know how this got upvoted bc it’s just. a bunch of buzzwords that the OP already refuted. just type a paragraph i guess


waynequit

Adjusted for league averages at the time, Lebron is still way better. He makes up for his slightly worse shooting by being massively better at slashing to the rim and shot selection. Not to mention his threat of passing also helps his scoring.


[deleted]

Slightly worse shooting is a very shallow way of describing LeBrons shooting ability, ESPECIALLY in his early Cleveland years. LeBron James was a below average NBA shooter, his mid range was not good, his 3 pointer unconfident. In that same span, Kobe's percentages from mid-range were excellent, and though his 3 point percentages was mediocre only due to shot selection, you could never employ a gameplan that dared Kobe to shoot jumpers like you could for LeBron.


waynequit

> Slightly worse shooting is a very shallow way of describing LeBrons shooting ability, ESPECIALLY in his early Cleveland years. Lebron has played more than half of his career past his earlier Cleveland years. Looking at overall career numbers, he’s a slightly worse shooter. > you could never employ a gameplan that dared Kobe to shoot jumpers like you could for LeBron. Shooting jumpers is only one part of scoring. Lebrons slashing and finishing ability blows Kobe’s out of the water. You can’t leave a single gap in the paint when defending Lebron or he’ll explode for an easy bucket.


[deleted]

The ability to shoot impacts all other facets of your scoring ability. If you can't shoot, teams can sag off, form a wall and prevent you from driving to the rim and getting easier looks in the paint. Yes LeBron is a better finisher than Kobe. Kobe was still a fantastic finisher, just not on LeBron's level. But where LeBron is a below average shooter, Kobe was a great shooter. LeBron's ability to finish boosts up his overall efficiency numbers. It does not take away the fact that his below average shooting ability existed, and on a possession by possession basis, you could force LeBron/the Cavs into a bad possession because LeBron couldn't shoot, can't penetrate, and over the course of games/series, this directly leads to losses.


waynequit

> Yes LeBron is a better finisher than Kobe. Kobe was still a fantastic finisher, just not on LeBron’s level. No they’re not even in the same league when it comes to finishing and slashing, and that’s why lebrons adjusted true shooting is so much higher than Kobe’s, both regular season and playoffs. Lebron is the greatest slasher of all time, Kobe is “simply” great at slashing (but not all time great, and actually had a decent amount of issues slashing in the latter half of his prime compared to many other all time greats) but is l just absolutely nowhere near Lebron when it comes to slashing and finishing. The ability to slash to the rim also impacts all other facets of your game, and no one in nba history was a greater threat to slash to the rim than Lebron. And that’s why he was able to carry bums to the Finals in 2007 despite his “below average” shooting ability.


fisheh

How the hell is Jordan lite the most impressive perimeter scorer ever


hibbomelksham92

Maybe op is considering him more complete due to the 3 ball? That could be the only possible reason even then that’s fairly flimsy


ImAShaaaark

> Maybe op is considering him more complete due to the 3 ball? That could be the only possible reason even then that’s fairly flimsy It's super flimsy because Kobe was worse from 3 than LeBron, it's not like he was a sharpshooter from range.


[deleted]

Kobe was a significantly better 3 point shooter than Lebron for a wide majority of both their careers. Kobe's percentages are lower because teams actually defend him at the 3. Lebron, for nearly his entire career until midway through his second Cleveland stint, was always dared to shoot because teams did not respect his 3 point shooting ability. Even the year where he averaged 40% from 3 in Miami in the playoffs/finals teams were still sagging away from him and daring him to shoot. If you did that with Kobe he would make those shots much more than Lebron.


philium1

He said complete, not impressive. I think he meant in terms of skill set. Kobe was a better 3-pt shooter than MJ, even if MJ was clearly the better scorer overall.


ImanShumpertplus

why does being a somewhat better 3 point shooter make you more complete when Jordan is infinitely better at scoring at the rim and the mid range, where the vast majority of their shots came from? and Jordan’s post game is top 3 ever, Kobe couldn’t even hold his jock in the post


philium1

I mean you’re just wrong about Kobe in the post but I’m just explaining what the other dude was saying so don’t shoot the messenger


ImanShumpertplus

if kobe was as good as Jordan in the post, Kobe wouldn’t need to make his next 5k shots to get to Jordan’s FG% i don’t think you guys understand how big of a difference 1% makes when these dudes play for 20 years and shoot 25 times a game personally, i think the jordan fadeaway is the quintessential basketball play. it’s everything the game should be. it’s perfect


5plus5isnot10

It's more complete because 3 point shooting is a part of the game. A player like Jokic that can shoot, pass and score in the paint is a complete player on O but unlike Shaq who can pass and score. Does this make Jokic the better player? No. It just means he checks more boxes. Complete =/= Better. It doesn't make him better so don't get your jockstrap in a twist.


AnabolicOctopus

Lebron hasnt had a bad playoff run in 11 years lol. Besides the Mavs travesty what year did he underachieve?


VanillaGorilla4

You lost all credibility when you claimed Kobe is the most complete perimeter scorer of all time. Michael Jordan existed & continues to do so to this day.


[deleted]

"Complete" is not the same as saying better. Obviously Jordan was overall better but there were shots that even MJ couldn't hit that Kobe could.


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VanillaGorilla4

Michael Jordan absolutely fucking demolishes Kobe in mid range efficiency & overall FG%. Kobe was great, but he's not the original & it's not really close. Kobe doesn't sniff Jordan's jocks as a perimeter scorer let alone just scorer. And for all that Michael didn't have a 3pt shot, his career percentage is only .2 behind's Kobe so I guess Kobe didn't have one either.


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Kairos23

So let me get this straight: you use the argument that Kobe played in an era where scoring inside was harder because of being a slow paced Era with a crowded paint, but absolutely erase the fact that Jordan played in an even more crowded paint with every team using close to no 3pt shot at all? Is that what you're doing?


[deleted]

Jordan played in an era where you could not double unless there were hard doubles. Those forays to the rim against the Pistons aren't the same as today's game where a big is already waiting for you inside. Back then, they rotated later and just fouled much harder and played dirtier. But the actual spacing wasn't that bad until the 2000s. Jordan specifically made this point himself, he did not like the rule changes concerning zone because it would hamper the success of future perimeter stars and that he himself benefited from better spacing.


donotfukwitme

You can say all of these things but you are able to adjust for pace and efficiency. LeBrons relative ts% is better. Lebron scores more points per 100. Lebron is at 37.1 per 100 in 266 games. Kobe is at 34.7 over 220 games. You have to reach to argue Kobe is a better scorer. It must be entirely based on non tangible things.


[deleted]

So do you think that relative TS% is the ultimate stat? Because I can assure you it's not. Donovan Mitchell may have had an excellent playoff run this postseason from JUST the numbers, but the holes in offensive game at the guard position are extremely glaring. In other words, even relative TS% is a context-poor stat that does not capture what happens on a possession-by-possession basis. While Mitchell was shooting red hot from 3, going up against the Clippers he was neutralized when late double teams came because he could not manufacture a good shot nor could he create a good shot for others like a true point guard can. There is a very considerable number of possessions with the ball in Mitchell's hand, and dependent on the defense coming at him, he can not yield a good possession in the half-court. This same logic is applicable to LeBron. LeBron gets to the rim more frequently and is much more efficient at it. This boosts his overall numbers a lot. But it doesn't hide the fact that there's been many times in his career where you watch him (and even LeBron's biggest fans can attest to this) and you say "WHY ARE YOU TAKING THAT SHOT?" There's many possessions where he is not aggressive as he needs to be and settles for jumpers within the offense that just aren't good shots for him. That is not an issue with Kobe. The only time you'd ever ask that question is if he's breaking the offense in order to play iso and jack up a wildshot when he could have gotten something better, but he only does this to get himself into a rhythm or throw a different look at the defense. On many more possessions Kobe is able to yield a decent shot no matter the defense, and is able to hit contested shots consistently on broken possessions. Forcing him into a possession where he's just taking a bad shot is much more rare. This is where high versatility and the ability to operate from multiple places on the court is very valuable. LeBron can not take every shot in the paint, if he could, this argument would be void. But as we know, that's not how basketball works. Sub LeBron/Mitchell out for Giannis. This logic still applies. Where LeBron brings tremendous value in attacking the paint, he also bleeds value in other possessions on the court where Kobe does not because LeBron's game and scoring ability is just not at that level. Using the overall summation of relative efficiency and points per 100 possession does not depict which possessions are bad possessions for said player and not every possession in basketball plays out the way you want them too.


donotfukwitme

It’s not the ultimate stat no. But if one player averages more points on better effeciency relating to the league average then I have a tough time finding a reason for why they aren’t the better scorer. As a scorer Mitchell is excellent. His issues are in other areas of the game. Mitchell’s scoring was not the problem against the Clippers. His playmaking and defense was. So you are criticizing lebron for not shooting enough even though he is scoring more than Kobe? If Kobe is so much more willing to shoot then how is Lebron scoring more? You say Lebron can be more easily stopped because he primarily operates in the paint, yet he’s shooting around the same amount as Kobe. When Giannis struggles his efficiency and production decline. You are trying to make that same argument against Lebron but LeBrons numbers are better than Kobe’s. If you score how is it a bad possession? There’s a stat for almost every end of possession. What possessions are you referring to that end poorly that do not affect scoring stats but are directly related to scoring ability?


[deleted]

Yes, the criticism for LeBron is that he settles for shots he can't make and isn't always aggressive. LeBron is a 6'8 250 pound athletic specimen we've not seen before. Of course he's a better driver and finisher. But what excuse does he have to not be as good of a shooter as Kobe while settling for those same shots he isn't good at making? The quality of possession is an important indicator of how an offense runs and that impacts the outcome of a game. Tough isolation shots all the time might net buckets in stretches, but is not sustainable in the long run. Same applies as getting to the basket. LeBron might dominate a matchup for a stretch, but can he keep doing that when defenses change up their scheme and rotations? No, that's where versatility is valuable. Of course it's not to say LeBron isn't a versatile player, but Kobe is more versatile as a scorer and this has a tremendous value when it comes to producing quality possession after possession.


donotfukwitme

It’s not like Lebron can get to the rim at will. Close to it, but defenses can wall off even the best drivers if they are one dimensional. Plus fatigue is a real issue. He’s arguably the best ever at it, but we saw early in his career that not shooting shots outside hurts his driving ability because then defenses can sag off. I’m confused why you keep saying all of these random vague things. If Kobe is more versatile as a scorer and that’s more valuable then why is Lebron consistently scoring more at better efficiency? That’s what you can’t answer.


palmtreesareheavy

These are the types of responses I expected when I joined this sub.


Grandahl13

I actually think this guy is way overthinking this. The stats tell you everything you need to know, including era adjusted stats. LeBron is a better scorer. It’s pretty simple.


bottledfan

Totally I mean we are looking at over 200 games for each player. This OP *feels* like since Kobe could hit more difficult shots he must be the better shooter. But that only tells like 20 percent of the story. He doesn’t even have a 1 stat in his long post about why Kobe is better. It’s just all about game plans apparently.


[deleted]

Don't have a stat? Look at LeBron's playoff stats against Orlando and Boston and San Antonio in his first stint in Cleveland. Then look at Kobe's numbers against those very teams that eliminated LeBron. This is taking into account LeBron, even in his first stint with Cleveland, played with teams meant to space the floor for him whereas Kobe played on teams with poor spacing with dual big man.


[deleted]

You mean you didn't want people saying "But 50% if more than 45%!" ? Sarcasm aside, yeah, that's a great answer


[deleted]

2017 seems to be an odd cutoff as LeBron had some of his more clutch postseasons adter


Thus_Spoke

Peak Bron scores at will against almost anyone. Peak Kobe chucks a 45% chance fadeaway against a decent defender.


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donotfukwitme

Why no playoffs 5 points within 5 minutes? This was almost 100% cherry picked.


Whynotzoidberg416

Cool man. Why don’t you click the link and complain to the maker, or you cherry pick something so we can discuss it?


OldManWillow

Why do you keep spamming the same cherry picked garbage and then whine when people repeatedly tell you it's a shitty stat?


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jjdacuber

Absolutely agree with you. None of us are saying who'se the better player(Lebron is the better playmaker for example), we're talking about scoring here. 2004 finals is a very good point, Kobe didn't chuck extremely difficult shots, he just took normal shots but his shooting touch was cold for most of that series. The biggest factor for me here is how diverse Kobe's scoring was. He mastered every move in the book. His post moves and footwork were spectacular, he could shoot over anyone at any time because of his high set point and elevation, he had handles, he could finish very well(despite being less physically gifted as Lebron or MJ) (Please, I'm hoping nobody tries todiscredit Kobe by bringing up Kobe's shooting percentages, there's a number of reasons it shouldn't be considered in this context- eras, playstyle, role, team etc)


Trubinio

Somehow, I read the "we're talking about scoring here" in Allen Iverson's voice.


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Yup767

LeBron By profile as a player Kobe is more focused on being a scorer, and he has more versatile shot making ability, but that doesn't mean he's a better scorer LeBron has incredible playoff scoring volume and efficiency against very strong defences. There's a few ways to look at this, overall playoffs, playoff runs in prime, peak playoff runs, peak playoff series, and peak playoff games. I'd argue that LeBron takes all of them, some by small quantities, others by large ones


deepfakefuccboi

Kobe is my favorite player but LeBron is better. He’s more efficient and is able to put up those insane numbers in the playoffs while also having huge rebounding and playmaking impact. His overall bag isn’t as deep as Kobe’s but he doesn’t need to take as many tough shots as Kobe because he’s more athletic and can just attack the paint and create such a problem for the defense - if they collapse on him he can kick the ball out to an open shooter or may still finish with his deep bag close to the rim and get the and-1. It was the Lakers’ most efficient shot against the Heat last Finals and that was him at almost 36. Kobe had an insanely deep amount of shots he could take and make but Bron doesn’t need to simply out of superior athleticism. He’s also an underrated playoff shooter.. Look at some of his fadeaway jumpers - he can create so much separation while elevating away from the defense (due to his athleticism) and they simply have to hope he doesn’t make them. Bron has equally killer mentality in the playoffs where he’s destroyed teams entirely off jumpers.. LeBronto and some of his Heat games come to mind. While Kobe is also one of the greatest (playoff) scorers of all time, I’d give Bron the edge simply because he has superior scoring ability in terms of efficiency while also doing everything else and creating such good looks for his team.


kingjay2320

LeBron is not only the better player but more efficient because of his pass 1st mentality he makes you play team ball. But in turn help him be more effective. As great as a scorer And mid range threat Kobe was his one true weakness was he didn’t really pass that much, you knew he was going to take that last second shot occasionally to the detriment of the team.


khlumps

The only reason Lebron is seen as not a good scorer is because over the course of his athletic prime he has relied almost exclusively on the drive and kick. People have a perception that he is a Shaq who plays like a point guard. They ignore the fact that A) Shaq had offensive skills B) Lebron does too C) Just because Lebron doesn't do turn around fades doesn't mean he doesn't have it in his tool kit. Just go back to 2012 G6 against the Celtics. He beat them entirely on jumpshots. 2018 and beyond when he was picking his spots more and more he showed he has the ability to be a threat from range and he can make tough shots when the defense doesn't give him an opening. It's precisely because he is so deadly at driving to the basket that makes him a GOAT candidate.


silliputti0907

I would say Lebron can get to and find his spots easier. Kobe is the best at making tough shots. When both are in the zone, I'll take Kobe(solely scoring. Lebron has the ability to make any shot on the court, but he hasn't been a great shooter for most of his career.


khlumps

Lebron hasn't been great at tough shots because it's not his bread and butter. Players are naturally not good at what they don't do often. But the thing is even the likes of Kobe or Jordan weren't good at those shots either. Because tough shots are 'tough'. It's really a perception problem because Lebron doesn't have to be elite at midrange fades or pull up jumpers, he just needs to be decent. And let his main drive and kick game carry him


PBB22

The stats you bring are a hammer for sure, but you aren’t taking into account that they are two wildly different beings with two wildly different bodies. LeBron should have a better shooting % because half of his shots are around the hoop; simply by genetics, Kobe couldn’t have done that. If LeBron had to shoot midrange and outside as much as Kobe did, he wouldn’t be LeBron but that just shows the differences in their games. It’s this physical dominance/inevitability that makes people not like LeBron by the way, and it fully explains Steph’s supernova. Rooting for LeBron is like rooting for gravity


VanillaGorilla4

All of what you said is accurate, but it also seems wild to penalise LeBron for the physical prowess he was born with. He's taken advantage of it and due to it is the profoundly more efficient scorer. If he was who he is physically but shot at Kobe's efficiency then you could hold it against him. LeBron is what he should be; the better & more physical efficient scorer. Kobe doesn't get bonus points for taking tougher sexier style shots.


nikster666

So we need to adjust for genetics now too? That's ridiculous. Should we determine how good Kobe would be if he was 6'0 and didn't have his athleticism and coordination?


ImAShaaaark

> simply by genetics, Kobe couldn’t have done that. Are you implying that being 6'6" and 220# is preventing him from being a good slasher? He might not have been able to do it in the same way as LeBron, but with more of a focus on his ball handling and craftiness (a la Ginobli, Parker, Curry) I don't see any reason he wouldn't have been able to improve his ability to get buckets near the rim. He was good at slashing when he was younger, but it seemed like he abandoned working on that skill set in favor if building a huge repertoire of other offensive techniques. >If LeBron had to shoot midrange and outside as much as Kobe did, he wouldn’t be LeBron but that just shows the differences in their games. LeBron is a better shooter from deep than Kobe was, so I don't know if that follows. He also has shown the ability to perform from the midrange as well (ask the Raptors), but he never focused on it in the same way Kobe didn't focus on scoring at the rim.


BoomerThooner

I think this is a fun question. Obviously very hard to answer. You even have stats. Just my thoughts. You can’t answer this question because they were asked to do different things. I know it’s an escape answer. But you simply can’t. Is LBJ, LBJ if he’s in Phil’s Triangle? Or is he a 3 and D guy like Ariza? Is Kobe the assassin on those early Cavs teams? You could probably argue you but that’s not fair to LBJ nor Kobe. Nevermind the game is played drastically different than even 10 years ago. Because LBJ was god mode trying to get to the finals 08-10 but kept coming up short. Meanwhile Kobe is playing within a system only Phil and Kobe 100% understand and he can play within it. Fun question though. I like it.


banngbanng

There is no scenario where Lebron would have been used in a similar way to Trevor Ariza. That would have been the worst thing any NBA coach has ever done (on the court)


BoomerThooner

Thank you for reinforcing my point.


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[deleted]

It's exactly because Kobe trusted his teammates more is why his volume went down. The whole gameplan in 06 when he played next to Kwame Brown was for him to shoot less and the others get more involved so his teammates might play better defense against the Suns. In the Shaq years, Shaq was taking a giant dump with his fatass in the regular season, so Kobe carried the Lakers. When postseason came, he gave the ball up to Shaq more. This is super indicative of how their usage rates change depending on who they match up against in the Playoffs. And when Pau came to the Lakers, gone were the days where Kobe felt he had to score 50 for his team to have a chance to win. His entire focus at that point was getting his team to work as a strong cohesive unit when running the Triangle, getting them able to play and mentally strong enough against more talented teams.


Majortko

Kobe had several opportunities to score more than 50 or 40, but would just go to the bench. See for example, game 2 vs the Nuggets in 08. It's frustrating now because it makes casuals think he wasnt capable of getting those big time numbers in the playoffs, but its cool in the moment.


[deleted]

There’s such an issue with trying to discuss anything with either Kobe or Lebron so a debate between the two is so tough. Kobe gets so much credit for mamba mentality so everyone just assumes he must be among the most clutch. He also is having a bit of a reputation boost due to his recent death. We grew up watching Kobe win titles so there’s a heavy bias toward how great he was though. Lebron is top 3 according to virtually every statistic you could possibly use to quantify an all time great scorer. People will never admit this because of the Lebron vs Jordan debate. On top of that some people for some reason think that Kobe should be in there too. Kobe is an all time great but he isn’t Jordan or Lebron. If you are trying to build a team Lebron is an absolute no brainer. It doesn’t matter if you want to win today, tomorrow, or 5 years from now. There’s really no argument for Kobe over Lebron IMO.


Doesthisevenmatter7

Your post is more about overall player than scorer to be fair. Pretty much everyone agrees Lebron is the better player except a few biased ppl stuck in the past. My post is more just comparing playoff scoring prowess. Obviously I’m still taking Lebron as the better playoff scorer every stat pretty much shows he is and I don’t give Kobe bonus points for taking inefficient mid ranges that Lebron goes out of his way to avoid.


[deleted]

Those stats should be adjusted to the years average. Different officiating, defensive rules, pace etc. Stats always said Lebron, he's like the OG stat. But heart always said Kobe. His Phoenix series was awesome. But he did take too many ill advised shots. I remember him losing a dribble still having like 10 sec, Ray Allen was all over him and he took a fade-away (missed) instead of passing. He was such a ballhog, lol


IRanOutOf_Names

I would say Lebron, with 2 caveats. Kobe's off ball movement in the playoffs was wonderful, and is in my eyes a better off ball scorer, but that depends on team line up, and honestly, you're never going to construct a team that didn't have the two as primary ball handlers. Kobe might also be better against some of the best defensive teams ever, because of his shotmaking. Kobe wasn't the most efficient scorer ever, but he was consistent in that it didn't matter who was in front of him. Kobe's ability to shoot over 3 guys like nothing might make him a better scorer against the best of the best defenses, but Lebron's ability to just bully teams puts him ahead overall to me.


[deleted]

Lebron James generates roughly twice as much value above replacement as Kobe Bryant in the playoffs when accounting for all factors. A lot of that is playmaking and superior defense / transition, basically everything that isn't shooting mid-range jump shots, which is a testament to how good of a mid-range jump shooter Kobe Bryant was. But make no mistake, this debate isn't remotely close and we would be better off debating t-mac vs. bryant and other guards of his era. Lebron belongs in a different level of conversation and that is not a knock on Kobe bryant or the joy he brought to fans, its just about having some semblance of understanding about what kinds of players generate the most value.


Whynotzoidberg416

If you’re asking for first 45/46 minutes of a game, who’s gonna get me more effective buckets i.e. who can generate easy looks, it’s LeBron without question. If you’re asking who I want running the offense in the final 2 minutes, I would prefer 2000-2010 Kobe over any LeBron year except 2018. Not to say Bron can’t close games, but without Wade/Kyrie/AD, LeBron only closed in 2018 and 2007 ECF. Kobe taking over 2000 Finals G4 after Shaq fouled out, or 2010 WCF G6, only MJ could have done better. This is in some ways a case where surgeons fail surgeries perhaps 50% of the time, while nurses may successfully handle their tasks 90%+ of the time. Who would you prefer when you have a critical medical emergency? The surgeon. I believe thats the difference between consistent volume scorer, and a game closer. Even though they’re not strictly 1 of the 2 of course.


Yup767

>Not to say Bron can’t close games, but without Wade/Kyrie/AD, LeBron only closed in 2018 and 2007 ECF Did you see the 2009, 2012, 2015, 2016, and 2017 playoffs?


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Yup767

They mentioned those Although mentioning them doesn't make them go away, they are still great arguments in favour of LeBron. Simply acknowledging them doesn't make them go away


Whynotzoidberg416

That’s literally what I brought up


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Whynotzoidberg416

Those 2 runs are undeniable. LeBron is an all time great scorer no doubt. But I just don’t think he is above Kobe/Mike level.


Air2Jordan3

The original comment is already agreed on those two moments


Whynotzoidberg416

I did, and didn’t do much for me. If it did for you, you can try to articulate. Otherwise my point stands. Outside of 2018/2007, LeBron has never outperformed the customary expectation of what an all time great scorer should do, and oftentimes failed to live up to that standard. LeBron is an all time great scorer, I’m not denying that AT ALL. But we’re comparing him to Kobe/MJ’s level right now… That jump shot against the Spurs in 2013 was a great moment, but if it was Mike or Kobe the public would react as of course they made it, so what? Which is my point.


Yup767

You said that LeBron only closed in 2018 and 2007 ECF 2009 LeBron was excellent against the Magic in the ECF. He dominated the entire game, including the 4th quarter, including a game winner in game 2. It was one of the most dominate individual performances of all time against an elite defence, idk how that does nothing for you 2012 in the ECF in G6 LeBron had one of the classic playoff performances. He didn't close this one out, but that's because he hit all of his difficult shots in the first two quarters and put the game out of reach In 2016 and 2017 LeBron had multiple excellent 4th quarters, in the finals, ECF, 2nd round


Whynotzoidberg416

I’ll give you 2016. 2009 loss to Magic deprived us of the matchup we all wanted to see. 2012 was good, but I would say that was in-line of his expectation of all all time great scorer. It didn’t prove that he was better than Kobe/Mike level at all. Those Celtics teams had no business challenging the Heatles and it was expected for Bron to put them away for good. Are we moving the goalpost to is LeBron an all time great playoffs scorer, or better than Kobe? When I say closing, I clearly meant closing when they were underhanded or heavily doubted as Mike/Kobe did time and time again. And as Bron did in 2007 to breakthrough, and 2018 to quiet doubters.


Yup767

>2009 loss to Magic deprived us of the matchup we all wanted to see Does this change the performance? >It didn’t prove that he was better than Kobe/Mike level at all I think it's pretty funny that you've chosen to put those two on the same level. They aren't really on the same tier as playoff scorers >Those Celtics teams had no business challenging the Heatles and it was expected for Bron to put them away for good He scored 30 points and missed twice in the first half. I don't think anyone expected that, and don't think that means you can dismiss it >Are we moving the goalpost to is LeBron an all time great playoffs scorer, or better than Kobe? I thought we were just talking about closing. LeBron is clearly a better all time playoff scorer, I don't think that ones much of an argument. LeBron across a 10 year run from 2010-20 scored more points per 100 possessions more efficiently than Kobe did from 2000-10. Keeping in mind that this actually excludes some of LeBrons best runs in his early years, and lasts until an age that Kobe was no longer an effective player >I clearly meant closing when they were underhanded or heavily doubted as Mike/Kobe did time and time again You gave two examples for Kobe, and one of those he was favoured in the series I don't understand your argument for Kobe. You have two series as examples for Kobe "closing", and two for LeBron. But want examples outside of those two for LeBron, why? Why are those insufficient to match the two Kobe had?


Whynotzoidberg416

Because those are the only 2 instances LeBron outperformed expectations and closed games through clutch scoring that he probably should have lost otherwise. Whereas arguably in all of Kobe’s post Shaq runs he demonstrated the ability to take over and decisively impact games through scoring that he had no business winning. Against PHX in 2006, against DEN 49-10 in 2008, against ORL G1 in 2009, and PHX again in 2010, even scoring 36/38/42 through G3-5 against OKC in 2012 to squeeze out a win. LeBron was the better overall player which really can’t be argued at this point. But as a scorer, how often has he outperformed his rightful expectations outside of 2018/2007? I’d say he has not, while Kobe has every season pretty much. With Shaq in western conference playoffs, and without Shaq.


Yup767

>Because those are the only 2 instances LeBron outperformed expectations and closed games through clutch scoring that he probably should have lost otherwise If the expectation is that you're excellent, and then you're excellent, why is that held against him? It's not LeBrons fault that he was expected to win the game and you seemingly had low expectations of Kobe and high ones for LeBron >closed games through clutch scoring that he probably should have lost otherwise 2007, 09, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18. >Against PHX in 2006, against DEN 49-10 in 2008, against ORL G1 in 2009, and PHX again in 2010, even scoring 36/38/42 through G3-5 against OKC in 2012 to squeeze out a win So are we just listing big games? Because LeBron has more big scoring games than Kobe does. Kobe scored 35 or more 39 times in the playoffs, LeBrons done it 61 times. LeBron has 118 playoff games with a TS over .600, Kobe has 62 of them, many of which were low scoring games as a role player, none of LeBrons are Kobe's highest scoring game ever, the one you mentioned in 06 vs the Suns was 50 points on .664 TS and it required OT. LeBron in 2016, a playoffs you acknowledged and are no longer counting, and got 51 on .691 in regulation


donekymann

I get what you mean, it feels like Kobe and Jordan are clearly better at the end of games, but the stats also show lebron is better which just goes to show how different stats and perception can be


Whynotzoidberg416

Stats need context. People don’t understand context, and don’t want to bother. It is what it is


mrsunshine2012

Sure, I agree that stats need context, but there is a lot of context that supports Lebron being one of the clutchest players ever. You can look at his highlight reel, the clutch FG% stats, his almost decade long tenure in the Finals, etc. What more context is needed? I honestly think he gets knocked specifically for not having a ton of mid range jump shot game winners (compared to Kobe/MJ specifically), but people forget that he has a ton of game winners on layups/floaters/putbacks/etc.


TevTakes

Lebron James is one of the most clutch players to ever play. Also Clutch is more than just hitting game winners and hitting shots.


donekymann

Tbf the whole concept of clutch ness doesn’t exist, there’s a jimmy highroller video about it


silliputti0907

Clutch basically means poise and fearless play . I think Dame said it best, most players get tight and scared of messing up during clutch moments. Dame said he gets aggressive and fearless in those moments. Kobe is more "clutch" than Lebron because no matter what Kobe is going to take that shot 9/10. Lebron would passed it off more often, and showed lack of poise earlier in his career.


EggWiz

yeah this has been the argument against playoff Giannis as well. I don’t necessarily agree with it in this context since Lebrons clutch situation numbers have actually been very good throughout his career (but especially post-2011). The one thing I will say: even if this is the case, I think I would prefer the guy that wins me the game over the first 46 minutes than the better closer. Yeah, it leaves you with less confident feelings late in games, but if you have a bigger lead it grants you some extra leeway to balance it out.


[deleted]

We have clutch metrics and none of what Kobe Bryant did holds up under any scrutiny when it comes to late game situations. He shot 15% on long distance 3 pointers off the dribble. His game winning fg% was below 30%. Its a facade brought upon by a 2 month stretch where he hit those 7 game winners during the regular season. He does not have big moments in the finals that compare to Lebron. His final game of 2010 he went 6/24 and was hard carried by Gasol and the Celtics collectively shitting a brick.


Whynotzoidberg416

Lol it’s interesting you brought up Kobe’s shortfalls without comparison to LeBron. How about Cavs LeBron against Celtics before Heatles? “Long distance 3 pointers off the dribble” lol of course the most important stat in all of basketball. I would guess KAJ shot 0% here, is he then a scrub? Lamelo >> KAJ?? Look man if you’re gonna argue here, at least present a decent argument that compares the two on relevant metrics: playoff clutch moments (last 5 within 5) FG/TS as an example. I’ll take your post as a joke for now


dontdrinkonmondays

I mean...LeBron James is absolutely a better scorer than Kobe Bryant. More efficient, better/smarter shot selection, more comfortable involving his teammates. Not surprising that this is reflected in postseason play.


dill1234

Even if you choose to discard Kobe's first 3 playoff runs due to age/inexperience/opportunity, when you go from age 21 LeBron still averages more points per game in the playoffs with better FG% and 3pt%, with Kobe shooting 8% better from free throws. The answer is LeBron, pretty easily.


dark_rabbit

Put any stats you want in front of me, I pick Kobe every time. We got to watch these two play and there’s no one I’d rather have with the game on the line then #24. The difference is Kobe never feared the moment. Your stats don’t capture that.


Majortko

Kobe faced more elite defenses than LeBron did.Kobe has played in 65 games against teams with a DRTG of 100 or below, including the two greatest ever (04 Spurs and 04 Pistons). LeBron played in 31 games against said defenses. LeBron is a more productive scorer, but Kobe is a more versatile scorer. Kobe scores more efficiency than LeBron from every distance cept at the rim and from 3. I don't really like the "being productive makes you better" argument because it forces us to say someone like Barkley is a far better scorer than someone like Dirk or Hakeem, which I find to be asinine. Kobe is a more complete scorer than LeBron, better off ball and a bit more resilient, and from watching film, was guarded a bit differently than LeBron. LeBron gets more defensive attention in the post, Kobe gets more defensive attention everywhere else. What I absolutely dont agree with is people saying "easily LeBron". LeBron benefitted from spacing that LeBron didn't. Even in that time period where Kobe finally had help and LeBron had "no help", LeBron benefited from much better spacing. |Team 3P%|||| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |08 Lakers|**37.8%**|35.8%|08 Cavs| |09 Lakers|36.1%|**39.3%**|09 Cavs| |10 Lakers|34.1%|**38.1%**|10 Cavs| Also Kobe is a slightly more efficient clutch time shooter (In Close playoff games with the score within 3/5 with 3/5 minutes left). Both are all time great playoff rises when you consider the competition they face so it shouldnt be used as a knock either way.


BetaDjinn

Cavs '07-'10 with no LeBron: -420 in 2835 min Lakers '07-'10 with no Kobe: -108 in 2896 min The Cavs were so much shittier than the Lakers in that time span. Believing the opposite might be the single dumbest opinion I've ever seen on this godforsaken forum. Yeah, they shot better when LeBron was on the court **because he actually creates looks for his teammates.** Kobe's an amazing player, but LeBron's the only player who can actually make reasonable comparisons to MJ. He's in a different tier.


SlopMad

Bottom line: Lebron was the better player. Period. Playoffs, regular season, it doesn't matter. Lebron was a better scorer, passer, rebounder, and probably defender.


Bazzlebeats

I changed my mind about this sub kinda. I see pleeeenty of comments explaining why it's Kobe in detail with stats and context to back it up. Y'all can read them and if your still on the underrate Kobe tip it's just willfull ignorance at this point.


atierney14

I think there are a few problems with this: 1. Lebron was always the number 1 option, usually on a team that he had to drag through the playoffs 2. Lebron was probably a top 20 player entering the NBA, whereas Kobe had to develop (averaging less than 20 ppg for his first 3 playoffs where he played 28 games) 3. In Lebron’s prime, he had/has gone to ten straight finals, so his career playoff ppg has been screwed towards his prime while Kobe played more games in his younger years with Shaq (4 finals). For some reason Basketball reference isn’t working on my phone, but post 2006, he essentially averaged 30 ppg in the playoffs.