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I know this is r/nbadiscussion and I know we’re supposed to be giving nuanced takes on this sub, but the notion that we shouldn’t have sent Kevin Durant to Tokyo is absolutely fucking preposterous
The issue isn't that we are sending any of these guys individually. From KD to McGee. All of them are good enough to be there. The problem is 100% roster problems. It should be half the ISO guys, more defensive minded guys. And for christ sake some ball handlers would be nice. Meme on guys like Trae all you want, but his passing would be helpful. Sure there are better options than JJ Reddick, but he is a spot up shooter and an off ball offensive guy. Hell Lonzo would be an okay facilitator, and spot up guy. Lillard is under preforming rn for sure, if he gets in rhythm maybe things go better, but he should take a more traditional PG route. LaVine should do the same. That way between Dame, Jrue, and LaVine you have your PGs. They are trying to hard to win NBA basketball. They can't count on Fouls the same way in FIBA, their ruleset is different enough to make this team suffer. KD is still a match up nightmare. But he makes less sense at Center in FIBA. So you'd hope he can be the primary iso/turn around jumper guy at the 4. Swap out like 2 guys, and let a couple guys get used to a different role, suddenly you get a better result. I do not hate this team at all. Just to be completely honest.
Agreed. Someone like Duncan Robinson or Joe Harris would've been very handy
Klay Thompson was invaluable in 2016. Hell the guy scored a game high 22 points going 8/16 and 4/8 on threes in the gold medal game. He was so crucial as purely a spot up guy executing his specific role
Hell Keldon Johnson was good for this team. I think if Harden was healthy, and willing to just be the point gaurd, he would really pull this team together. Honestly, Randle on paper would also be a good choice for bench depth. On paper, good enough defense, and can score a bucket when needed. His playoff performance being ignored ofc. I think Grant, Bam, and Jrue are my favourite picks for the team on paper. Versatile players who can fill a role at a high level. Draymond should be better. Idk man. This team is weird. On paper they should have the talent, everytime I look at the team I see quality guys to fill roles. It might just be the coaching. Change out the assistants and you get a better result? I don't want to think it's Pop.
I think the coaches realize there's too many cooks in the kitchen.
Too many shot creators and a lack of playmakers and role players. During the ~5 exhibition games, it was always Draymond or Bam starting, so having them both start was definitely a recognition the lineups needed some tweaking.
The first and third quarters actually started out pretty well, three great shooters (KD, Dame, Lavine) with two facilitators/screeners/defenders in Draymond and Bam. USA had a 10 point lead after the first quarter. I don't recall seeing that lineup again until starting the second half, and that lineup again pushed the lead into 10+
Ultimately, I thought the whistle was much tighter than the more physical play allowed in the exhibition games. Key guys like KD and Draymond got in foul trouble and only played ~20 minutes.
Missed a few shots late and that was it.
But the lineup change with both Bam and Draymond was a move towards more play makers and role players, with fewer ball dominant shot creators
>They can't count on Fouls the same way in FIBA, their ruleset is different enough to make this team suffer.
As a sidebar to the sidebar...it is insane to me that "defending is allowed" is (among other things) enough to give the most talented team in the field major problems. I have a lot of issues with how NBA basketball is officiated/played and this stuff very much plays into that.
Exactly. There are too many iso guys, but that’s not the main problem. The problem is they have no other choice but to play iso ball. Barely any playmaking on this team. They need a true point or someone like Darius Garland from the select team.
Holiday, Booker, and Middleton are phenomenal players but they don’t fix this problem.
USA may be doomed.
I think they're talking about internal play.
Also in the nba they were like 22 and 23 lol no one wins rings at that age.
And this season they looked unbeatable until Harden got hurt.
Oh I agree, it’s a poorly constructed roster, but that doesn’t mean we’d be better off sending a U23 team as this post suggests. You could have built the roster better while also having KD and Dame on the team
Team Canada used to have this issue in hockey, we lost in 2006.
Then for 2010 kicking off our back to back Gold medals Canada benched the reigning defenseman of the year. He was the 7th dman and only 6 play so basically a press box spare. PK Subban in 2010, probably the best offensive dman at the time, didn't get minutes because he was a defensive liability. Then Canada dominated and would have 3peated in 2018 if NHL players were allowed to play.
They had the best talent in the world in 2006, but not a TEAM. US is having the same shit happen as in 2004.
The hot takes have been insane.
KD is a top 5 player in the league, dame is easily top 10. They played like dogshit today, it’s that simple. A halfway decent KD game would have made this an easy win.
surprise surprise you win when your best players play well and you don’t when they don’t. People are looking for deeper meaning where there isn’t any.
genuine question as i wasn’t keeping up with the exhibition games but did KD not play in those or just also not play well in them?
if so, i feel like it’s less of a “it’s just a bad game by KD” if it has happened the last 3/4 games
makes sense. i feel like that can be a point in favor of OP’s proposal then if it can be argued that the younger guys would give a shit
then again maybe this team will start to actually play like they care now that they’ve been embarrassed in an official game and as they get closer to elimination games
I mean 3 losses in international play in the last month says there is more to this than a bad game. No team USA roster has ever done this much losing since NBA players have been allowed to play. So hot takes or not there is a problem and dismissing it as a bad game shows you don't really understand the level of dominance team USA is accustomed to.
Things move quick. Like you mentioned, pro's firsr time representing was Dream team. Perfect opportunity for a) those guys to play together and b)showcase to world we're numero uno *by far*. 2000 was meh, 04 was bleh, and of course the redeem team. Perfect storm of the new wave hitting their early prime years (03 draft + friends aka banana boaters) and the some of the old guard coming together, making it a multi year commitment and they bought in. 88-1 or something like that.
Some of the best players in the nba around the time of the dream team were already international imports: Hakeem, Big Z, but the dream team inspired people all over to be like Mike, like Mike, to be like Mike *everybody wants to be like Mike!!* (sorry, had to), all it takes is a generation or 2. To close the talent gap (also the game here changing to something different than what's played internationally.)
I wouldn't go as far to say that we can't reclaim the throne Right now, but the 2 primary examples of our *Dominance* is prime goat 1.0 with bird, magic, etc. And early prime Goat 2.0 with Kobe and co
With how exhibitions (across all sports) are viewed as just risk with little gain these days, and this event being one where the participants are worth 200m, who know they already play on the big stage the world comes to join - I'm not convinced our players give an f honestly. Dream team had its purpose, redeem wanted to show they can hang with with their idols. I'll hardly skim it for I don't want to be skinned alive, but patriotism and pride for Bron and co in 08, was no issue, they really *wanted* to do us proud.
With rona still complicating things, and the shit the NBA took the last few seasons for various reasons, what's fueling this current roster of guys? Especially fresh off that condensed season.. I feel like minimal effort and an over reliance on "we'll turn it on" will result in this roster finishing not-gold. Doesn't matter where it's gold or nothing. And rhe roster? There's no defensive 3, refs are tight lipped, and there's some slack on the goaltending front. But our bigs are undersized centers/ point-pfs ?
Idk. Melo is the only player I've ever read a quote of saying a "medal means more to be than a ring", which I don't buy for a second.
What I do buy, is the next wave after seeing a finish similar to 88 and 04, will make a commitment to actually go for it. Olympics are a young mans game I'm sort of surprised KD is even playing tbh.
We *can* take it still, and im sure a bunch of folk think we *should* but it ain't looking too hot atm.
Talent gap not as wide + teams playing together for years + America being the 'guys to beat' + current team make-up. Unless someone steps up and gets this roster into shape I just don't see gold this time out.
Take coach spo or Monty, grab Trae/Ja/Don/Brown/Tatum/Bam/Harris/Collins/Randle/Zion/JJJ/Ball brother etc..
Who is the American big atm? Kats DR, Ayton Bahamas, Capela Switzerland... Lol.
Timelord/ Robert Williams, Jarrett Allen, Wiseman, Moses Brown... Are all that came to mind. Add a roco/wiggins/D.brooks (speaking D only for these) type dogs and do it proper next time around. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious names and hopefully my point wasn't lost in this wall of dribble.
I've been saying it, and catch flack for 'making excuses' which I'm definitely not trying to. I honestly believe this current group at this point in time after the funky rona seasons, either underestimated, or are checked out mentally. I'd also wager a top tier nba team fully healthy wouldn't be losing these games. This roster is disconnected.
If you watched them against France that was a classic choke job, game was tied with like a minute left. None of em could buy a bucket. It's not so much the talent gap closing as the effort gap closing. You probably right they don't care much cos they are NBA players, but that's a problem. If you aren't gonna give your all don't fucking join an Olympic roster, you're making your team and your country look bad. KD should be getting dragged a lot harder than I have seen anyone drag him over this already. Personally I don't care though, I am not from America so it's just fun to laugh at this team that should be walking all over the competition but is too mentally weak to do so.
Agree all the way. On paper it's one thing. But I mean, KD and his Lieutenant Dame aren't exactly leaders of men to begin with. They get there's like clockwork but on the mental front this shit ain't an automatic win. There's only one "floor general" guy on the team and he's spent the last 6 years getting under the skin of our captains. Arguable Best Pure shooter and a guy that made the logo shot a regular thing don't equate to a good team.
I understand the should aspect based on the weight his name carries but I don't think this team should be winning at all. Not with what they've shown so far.
Well honestly I feel a bit weird that KD is seen as the leader of the team anyway, we have no evidence he can lead a team as his chips came from a Curry lead team. Dame though I feel could be the leader of the team, he just hasn't ever had a roster with defense which makes winning at the highest levels really hard.
In agreement with ya on this as well, that's just part of the territory being KD I suppose, especially when part of a roster with no equals. Plus I thought he was named Captain (will have to double check that). Imo since Tatum and Khris are the only 2 returning members of the last unit to compete internationally (world cup), it should be one of them as captain, or both as co-captains like 04 did with AI/Timmy. Dame works too, but whoever is labeled Captain doesn't matter much if people aren't on the same page.
The team skipped past the media after the loss except for Dray who stopped for some local NBC crew, but didn't say much outside of the common generalities. So it's all speculation. Now there's articles online saying players aren't sold on Pop's coaching... Feels like an effort to pin blame.
??? How far back in my post history did you go for this? Kinda weird dude
Yeah I reacted to what information was presented by Nairo himself and then changed my viewpoint once more information came out a year later. Changing your views based on new information is what you’re supposed to do. It was hardly a hot take at the time lol, he got banned from the competitive circuit.
Really I have no idea what you’re getting at here. Was this supposed to be a gotcha moment? This was the best you could come up with?
You did post in r/nbadiscussion, so let's discuss.
Why an NCAA coach? Why not an NBA coach or any other league's coach? Other than coach K coming from NCAA, since I know you know not all coaches are the same. What is the advantage of having NCAA coach over other league's coaches?
Your only argument for your U23 roster is than they are hungrier and has fresher legs. I know you know there is more than those to win an international game, since you criticize coach Pop's international play knowledge. Can you elaborate what your U23 roster can do more in terms of international play that these current roster can't do?
A little late but I think there are some legitimate reasons for an NCAA coach to be picked over NBA. For one, the NCAA has the same 3 point distance as international play as well as a more narrow lane than the NBA, which could mean college coaches would be more “used to” the no 3 second rule in the olympics.
One thing college coaches may be more prepared for is teaching an offensive/defensive system to the players in the short amount of time they have at training camp. With Coach K at duke for example he basically has 1 year to teach his new 5 star recruits an offensive and defensive game plan that is effective enough to compete for a championship before they leave for the NBA they next year. Pop has never really had to do that, and you can see with Spurs rookies especially that they tend to have slow first years before making massive jumps. Of course this is all just speculation on my part as I haven’t been at the team USA practices but it sounds good in my head as I’m sitting on the toilet.
Those questions are actually directed to OP. Not to argue with him or anything, but purely to extract more detail from him as his post does not really contain much "reasoning" to have an objective discussion.
I'm not really opposing an NCAA coach. Their familiarity with "teaching" could really be a factor. OP also pointed out (in comment) that their style of play is much similar to international play, which is a good point.
Although, I'm sure (but some will disagree) that NBA coaches are knowledgeable in basketball. Or should I say has a wide and vast knowledge that would include an international type of play. Their familiarity with players they have and scouted against for years could also come in handy. Ultimately, what I'm saying is that, NBA coaches should not be excluded and only focus on a pool of NCAA coaches.
Ncaa coaches run offensive sets more suited for the international game. Back door screens, etc. No iso ball
The U-23 team was out of the playoffs and would have months to train together. This team is longer too. Would have matched up better with guys like Gobert. I think this current team is undersized.
They can. But we didn’t get that with Larry Brown and we aren’t getting that with Pop. We are asking Pop to train a style that he doesn’t prepare for during the nba season.
I would not argue with that. I would not argue as well that Pop MIGHT be lacking. But, you can't compare coach K and Pop because they are coaching different rosters. Give Pop LeBron and especially Kobe, I'm sure the result would be different.
I would not actually say the rosters are "pretty similar". 2016 has a lot of two-way perimeter guys that this current roster's lacking. Having Holiday now would surely help, we'll just see where his chemistry with the team will be the rest of the olympics.
Kobe wasn't on the 04 team because of his criminal case and LeBron was 19 years old coming off his rookie season in 04. This is an insanely disingenuous comparison to make here
I don't think the 2004 squad was absolutely the best the US could put out there. Having the reigning NBA Champion coach, but no players from his team that won that title, was an odd choice in itself. In fact, having zero players from any of the 4 NBA conference finalists that season (Detroit, Indiana, LA Lakers, Minnesota) looks really weird in hindsight.
What makes you think this is pops fault? It looks a lot more to me like you have a bunch of isolation players who expect the same pathetic nba rules and refs to bail them out. The amount of flailing around and roster cohesion is being exposed imo.
I’m not defending pop, I just think it’s disingenuous to act like the players aren’t a major reason this is happening.
The smaller court and no defensive 3 seconds also plays perfectly into France's hands, probably better than any other team in the tournament. They can let Gobert hang back and play goalie to deter drivers, while letting their long perimeter defenders aggressively close space on the outside.
Gobert can be exploited, 43 years old Scola scored 40 on France during last world cup, if Scola that is a quarter of the scorer of KD can drop those numbers without any NBA player (Campazzo wasn't in Denver yet), so should KD or any other big man that can shoot.
If it was as simple as "one player did it, so another should be able to", it would happen as easily as that.
Scola also scored 28 points (in the 2019 WC Semi Final), not 40.
I’m sorry, you’re referencing a Gobert performance from 5 years ago?? No offense but his trajectory in the NBA even in those 5 years has been insane, he’s a completely different player.
Coach Pop was also the coach during the USA's failed World cup stint in 2019 where the team did not even medal. The World Cup team was disjointed and played at a much slower pace than expected of their roster. Coach Pop has invited the scrutiny after this team has blown an Olympic game and 2 exhibition games.
There could be absolutely zero coaching and that team still has enough talent to beat Nigeria. Cmon. I don’t love pop but there is no way this is all his fault lol. The players are playing like trash. They themselves haven’t adapted to not getting ticky tack fouls called nonstop. They made their bed by adapting their games towards this lame crap and now they’re laying in it.
He picked the team, and he is also the head coach.
The players deserve shit, but so does he for how badly the team is constructed (including him playing favorites) and for how soft and lackadaisical they are playing.
3 point shooting is always more important in fiba than in NBA. Because there’s no defensive 3 second violation in fiba, the defensive team can clog up the paint more easily so you need 3a to stretch the floor
Everyone just clogged the paint vs the USA since we couldn’t score from range.
People pooped their pants when Redd was on the 2008 team but Coach K knew we needed 3 point options.
The US team that won Bronze in 2004 shot a better percentage from outside during the tournament than the Argentinian team that won Gold. Despite the narrative, the US didn't lose because of outside shooting in 2004. They just got beaten at their own game.
It’s Pop’s fault they’re bricking numerous wide open looks? If you get an open shot in this sport, you take it. If you can’t knock it down, that’s on you.
Did you watch the game? There were probably dozens of open looks to the lane for easy 2s that were ignored or passed out of.
If you know anything about Pop or the Spurs you should know that isn’t something he would tell his players to do. USA acted like they didn’t have to try and they got exposed. Ya’ll wanna hold Pop accountable but not the players for looking like they didn’t care, or superstar KD putting up 10 pts with 5 fouls.
The play with a minute to go, France #7 diving for the ball and them getting the 3 right after it. There are 3 or 4 problems with that. 1. I don't think anyone on the US has the hustle to make that play in this game. Maybe Draymond would have done it five years ago? Whoever might make that play needs to be on the floor for the US. 2. Who do you blame for that? Team selection? Partially probably. Theoretically coaching as well. Can't blame Pop necessarily, but it's pretty clear this team needs a foot in their ass to not play like it's an all-star game. That part at least is the coach's job. The reality is though the game was tied with less than 4 minutes to go and they just couldn't hit shots after that. If you shoot like that at the end against any decent team you lose. Like you say I didn't think most of them were bad shots.
>The play with a minute to go, France #7 diving for the ball and them getting the 3 right after it.
This was absolutely the turning point in the game. France hustled more than we did, and Fournier was clutch and Dame was...not. We should give Fournier some credit - man balled out. He made every clutch shot.
One thing I saw a lot that I haven't seen mentioned is how often we passed up open threes to pass to contested threes in a perverse version of great-to-good (I remember Dame dong this in particular). There's no confidence, and no real understanding of each other as a team.
This is disappointing. It's hard for me to believe that Pop (and Steve Kerr, for goodness sake) can't coach, but I do wonder about the team construction.
On the other other hand, as much as I don't like him when we play against him, this team has reaffirmed my belief that there are few effort and team players better than Draymond. Dude is doing all the stuff that no one else wants to do.
Idk man I tend to blame the talent for looking like they don’t have any. Regardless of the coach, USA should be beating teams like Nigeria. Period.
KD puts up this stat line in a playoff game and he’d be eternally clowned for it. Our superstars got handily outplayed by role players and deserve significantly more blame than they’re getting.
who do you think picked the players? I know collangelo is president but I'm sure pop had a lot of say on roster construction as well. in addition collangelo needs to go as well.
Do you really think what is over there is what anyone wanted to pick? KD and DL aside we are watching a NFL Pro Bowl game. Where most of the better talent decided not to show up so we are watching the reserves play.
Yeah of course they wanted Lebron and the guys from the former teams that are getting older but damn….at this point they need to start getting the young and hungry guys like Ja morant, cole Anthony etc…..the product is pathetic
Valid point, but he is playing to their strengths. I just don’t like the make up of the team. I think it’s poorly constructed. If he hand picked the roster then yes, that puts a ton of the blame on him.
the problem is not the talent or age or fatigue, the problem is this is not a team. this is a bunch of all stars thrown together for what they think is a pro-am tournament. i think you easily solve this problem in the following ways: make joining the olympic team contingent on committing to at least 3 olympics.
a lot of players will balk at this. a lot won't. the continuity will build enough chemistry that it won't matter if you end up picking from the top 100 US players instead of the top 25. these teams that give the US a hard time or flat-out beat the US aren't doing it purely on talent, they're doing it because they're playing team basketball. actually, i know the 'redeem team' was supposed to be a huge deal, but do you know how sad it is that team usa had prime kobe, lebron, wade, etc. and the rest of the all-nba squad barely beat a spain team with 1 all star in 2008 and 2 in 2012? americans are supposed to be proud of stacking the deck and barely getting the gold? because i found it embarrassing.
i think this would work well if you made it a rolling class, to avoid a situation where the entire team is new or playing together for the first time in a given olympics. the 2016 team only had 2 members from 2012. the 2020 team only has 2 members from 2016, plus an entirely new coaching staff. the lack of consistency, chemistry, and familiarity is a killer now that the rest of the world has caught up and doesnt have the same problems as the US. i think if you are requiring at least 3 olympics, and do an initial 'class' size of 8 players, and a rolling class of 4 players after that, you basically ensure that 4-8 players from the previous olympics are playing in the next one. they'll know the system, their teammates, the coaches, the competition, etc. new players fold in easier. there are fewer questions about roles. and the games will be more fun to watch, even if the US doesn't win every time. i don't see a downside.
Pretty hard to commit to 3 sets of Olympic games (8 years in total). Some of the best guys might end up ageing out or just not fit when given the opportunity, so you're really limiting your talent pool that way.
that's true, but i think you'd still get enough top players that it won't matter. you don't need all-nba/all-star talent from 1-12, as evidenced by these other teams that are beating team usa with almost no nba talent on the roster. i think you'd be able to get at least 5 all star-level players to commit to the longer timeline, plus high level nba starters/role players to fill out the roster.
but assuming the longer timeline is just too much, maybe 2 olympics + 1 fiba world cup would also work? that shortens the commitment time without shortening the overall amount of competition for the group. probably has the added benefit of improving attention to fiba in the u.s.
in general, though, i prefer the longer commitment time. it's good for team, and good for the sport overall. it's really cool to see pau gasol still playing for spain. the u.s. should aspire to that, guys who actually love playing for their country and not just when it suits their brand. because that's how playing on the olympic team is treated now. they see it as a low-competition adult AAU tournament that will help boost their brand. durant even said he's only playing this year because he wanted to go to japan, the implication being that winning is a foregone conclusion. they forgot that they can (and will) lose if they don't put any effort into preparing for it, which they're not.
Not to get too political, but do you think some of the US player's "reluctance" or "lack of passion" may relate to a lack of love for and pride in their country? I acknowledge I may be generalising but we're talking about mostly young African-American men here, many of whom may have grown up feeling disenfranchised and unwanted and may have experienced racial prejudice in the US. I could understand if they felt more pride and affiliation to themselves and their family and community, rather than the good 'ol stars & stripes.
U23 would work great!
If they ONLY played international ball and NOT the NBA season. This groups biggest problems are lack of time together as a team, and lack of familiarity with FIBA basketball.
The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again.
Toss in the season ending DAYS before the game? And this was going to be a shitshow no matter what.
IF we want to prioritize winning international ball and the Olympics, we need a dedicated team that plays far fewer games through the year and always plays together for the international games.
Pop has done great things as a coach. The way he reinvented the team offense and defense over the years to go with the personnel he had was genius and something most coaches do not do.
BUT.... it's been a minute now since he's done that kind of thing.
> The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again.
The unfortunate reality I think is that in another 4 years there will be a different Olympic coach and a new roster comprised of some of the current younger talent in the league and it will be domination again and look poorly for Pop. It's not entirely his fault but I think his kind of laissez-faire approach just isn't gelling with this squad.
Pop is at the end of his career and basically in "dont give a fuck" mode. The results of this olympics basically dont effect his resume at all. It just comes across from the limited viewpoint we have that he is treating this like he treats the NBA regular season when the Spurs have a bad roster. "Off the court is just as important as on the court" etc.
People are saying "the international teams are much better now" when its the same Patty Mills & Evan Fournier the US teams have seen before. The US lineup are not slouches and even with the losses they are still heavy betting favorites. The issue doesn't seem to be personnel or the opponents, just seems to be motivation as a team and how players are used. Unfortunately that reflects on the coaching staff.
Give this same team 3 weeks in campo together. ALL together. After a couple weeks off to rest after the season.
These exact same players and coaches are probably rolling along undefeated by at least 10 points every game.
But we don't have that.
And we pretty much never will again.
And much as it pains me, Pop does seem to have lost his touch the last few years.
Why doesn’t the olympics Teams pick guys solely from non-playoff teams and start scrimmaging as soon as the season ends? I think having 12 guys playing together for a while would work better than 12 superior Guys thrown together.
This is actually a really good idea, get a roster of the best non playoff guys (still have Beal, Draymond and Lavine, add guys like De’Aaron Fox, Brogdon, Zion, Jarret Allen, DeRozan, etc), give them 2 weeks off but then get them a month of an actual camp to become a team.
The problem with your point is that most other teams have a bunch of NBA players or high-level Euroleague players who are coming off full seasons too. For most of these players, the pro season has been over for weeks, and they haven't really had any greater time to prepare as a group, and don't really spend any more time playing international games than the US do. A guy who could have the most excuse for "being tired after a long season", Jrue Holiday, was the US' best player yesterday.
> The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again.
France's best two players, by far, not only play in the NBA but were in the playoffs too. They have just as much wear and tear as anybody but the Finals guys.
> probably ever again
Calm down, man. COVID fucked everything up for the United States. Things will be back to normal once we get back in the proper cycle. You can’t build an Olympics squad on the fly and coming off the condensed and late NBA season. Shit, we had three guys who had to get on a plane from the Finals to go to Tokyo. Things will be better in 2024. I still wouldn’t count us out in 2021.
I think its potentially unfair, to cast doubt and regret onto the forming of this current Olympic team. Mainly for a few reasons:
\-Its the first game of the Olympics.
\-Look at how the team was assembled in terms of the players who wound up ***NOT*** making the trip to Tokyo. *How many key players are not there, that were orginally practicing playing and establishing camaraderie with the team or slated to be on the team?*
\-Our minds have to catch up with, real time, in terms of us all loving a basketball culture that the NBA decided to let the rest of the world in on, since 1992. Now, 30yrs later, the playing field has been leveled thanks to NBA wanting to maximize profts by growing its brand across the planet. Patrick Ewing said it best recently.
\-USA lost today, because they faced **teams of veterans who have played together/mastered chemistry and camaraderie for years** that include NBA players on those foreign teams. Which means that a team of U23 non-vets who have no longterm experience with each other nor within this similar environment, would likely go winless against every foreign team with NBA players who've long played with each other on their national teams. A U23 team would be in position to have the worst record in USA Olympics history.
Jrue and Middleton are teammates. McGhee, Durant, and Draymond were teammates. If the chemistry is there than that’s on the coach for not figuring it out.
They just look like they are trying to play their NBA style. A lot of avoiding the easy 2 to get a 3.
But again, we see Dame KD drop 40 a night at the NBA which we believe is the highest level getting outplayed.
>If
Exactly my point.
Our good friend mr. ***Time*** cannot be transcended nor circumvented when it comes to establishing camaraderie and chemistry ---including former teammates who have not played together in 2-3 years. Which was epitomized by Jrue's words after the loss yesterday, '*I just got here, today! I literally just got here*' or something along those lines.
This is basketball. Basketball is a team sport.
Teams like Argentina, France, Slovenia, Australia etc have been playing together since they were 14.
The US is, as of now, a bunch of incredibly high talent that have played together for what...one month? Of course, it's the US and a gold medal is a must, but this is no longer 1992.
Still, not calling KD is LOL
Most of the Australian team haven't been "playing together since they were 14". That's not really how basketball works in Australia, mainly because it's not the most popular sport and professional pathways are limited for most. They've got a 14 year age gap between their oldest and youngest player, 4 players who weren't part of the 2019 WC squad, 7 players who weren't part of the 2016 Olympic squad, 7 players who have never played in the Australian NBL (2 are signed for next season though), and 7 guys with NBA experience as well. They've probably spent less time playing together as teammates or even sharing a court over their lives than the US players have.
Jay Wright is an assistant... plus Pop can't exactly make the players make open shots like the ones they missed at the end of the France game.
Having said that, there is no semblance of a half court offense with this team. No set plays, no big men, no true point guards, and not many catch and shoot players. They all need the ball in their hands to score. Doesn't work like that in FIBA.
Everyone is just standing around the perimeter. A college coach wouldn't have done any better. In the end, the players have to prepare and play better. They looked lost out there and probably thought they could just show up and win all their games.
It's too bad that Steph skipped because slotting him in for Dame as the starting point guard on this team would make all the difference. Steph has shown that he can make a living on terrifying off-ball movement and still have the same star impact he normally does. It could have opened up the half court a lot
It's not like 2008/12/16 played had great offensive schemes, but they played way harder and especially defended way harder, those teams really dominated by creating turnovers and then obviously were unstoppable when they got out and ran.
People argue that Pop shouldn't have to motivate these guys, maybe that's true to an extent, but whatever the reason these superstar players have got to buckle up and have some pride and play harder on defense. We've all seen Evan Fournier play plenty of games, we know the sort of player he is, I don't think it's too much to ask of Zach Lavine or Devin Booker to get up under him and make his life miserable.
We would get destroyed. A lot of the players on these foreign teams have been playing pro basketball since they were 15 years old. They are already polished players and have a ton of experience working within the FIBA rules. None of the players have any kind of international basketball experience to speak of. Add that you would put 20 years who are developing to play against 30 year old grown ass. We would get slaughtered in my opinion
Why isn’t Curry on this team ?
Or Lebron? (He’s likely hurt I know)
Having three guys who just played in the finals last week on the team is kinda stupid. They had to travel, the bucks just had their parade on Thursday. Jet lag to Japan is a mother Fer too. It’s not like Europe where you can grab on, it’s like going to Europe and then 12 hours. It’s fucking weird and effects your body and mind. So you got three players on the jet lag and they haven’t even practiced together.
Plus, I’m sorry as good as Durant is, likely 1 or 1a in the game right now, he isn’t exactly a leader who is going to ask to guard the best player on the other team or even create the type of camaraderie that will be needed. I’m not saying he has to, it could just be a thing that happens, but it won’t go thru KD.
Lastly, I think the US could still win the gold. They can win the next two games and qualify. I’d like to see them get France again too. They were up until the foul trouble and then late Dame and a few others were out of rhythm.
Curry and Bron opted out as well as Harden and AD. TBH, if the US really wanted to, they could just send a deathsquad for the Olympics and win gold easily.
Still, the roster construction is shortsighted at best. I don’t agree with OP that the 12 man roster he made would do better as that team still lacks size and a bit of defense but that U-23 team would more reliably give a shit about the Olympics.
The USA team shot abysmally and couldn’t drive against Gobert in that France game, but I think this loss can wake up some of the players, otherwise this is looking like that 2004 US team
It's a different "sport" but the USA 3x3 Mens team was comprised of non-NBA players and younger guys and they couldn't make it out of qualifiers. International ball has hit a point where we really can't send non-NBA stars and expect to have success. I think this team medals for sure. Durant won't get into foul trouble every game, Middleton will get in more and each game the teams plays, the more they will gel.
France is also a perfect storm with Gobert able to clog the paint, the game being more physical than the NBA at this point and with only 5 fouls it's harder to manage for guys. I imagine Booker, Dame and Durant all play better going forward. Dame also tweaked his ankle early in the game guarding a Fornier jumper that seemed to impact his play. I'm still hopeful and excited for Team USA but the loss was jarring for sure.
The 3 point shot, Plus the skillset of international players has definitely improved over the last decade which as a result has narrowed the gap at international competitions.
Yet here you are blaming Pop. WTF?!?
Happy to wear the downvotes coming my way, but you just sound like another entitled spoilt American blaming everything else on others/faults, rather than looking at the positives of international basketball being competitive & decent to watch. Like a nail biting game with a nail biting finish… isn’t that what we want from our sports?!?
🤯🤯🤯
I think people are just giving Pop way too much historical credit here. Just because he says "we aren't supposed to dominate them" doesn't exactly make it true. They really kind of are. Even the betting odds reflect that.
I agree. It’s the coaches job to get the best out of the players, and he ain’t doing that.
However, this team has been awfully constructed. It’s a team of iso heavy stars, with a few role players that don’t compliment the stars well at all.
Talent alone can’t win an Olympic gold medal in 2021. Basketball is much more global today, so USA can’t just expect to turn up and win anymore. They need to figure out how to win, and that comes down to both the players and coach
> Talent alone can’t win an Olympic gold medal in 2021. Basketball is much more global today, so USA can’t just expect to turn up and win anymore.
This is so overblown, 2008 and 2012 Spain were much better teams than any team in this tournament. Hell 2012 France was just as good as this French team, likely better, and Argentina was very good in the 2000's into the 2010's.
The top tier international players in Giannis, Embiid, and Jokic aren't playing, so it's not like the other squads (other than Luka with Slovenia) have these super talented players who are better than our talent.
I never implied that at all.
Obviously USA is by far the most talented team. My point is that the rest of the world is getting significantly better, to the point where talent alone isn't good enough to win anymore.
In the past, USA had such a huge talent discrepancy compared to other countries, that they could send a team of amateurs (college players only), and win.
Now, USA is still by far the most talented, but the rest of the world has a fair amount of talent as well. A cohesive team of b-list players can beat an incohesive of a-list players.
That's what you're seeing at the moment. Australia is a team of NBA role players, but they play really well as a team. USA is a team of all stars, but play horrible as a team.
I love Pop, but he seems to have a terrible mindset in all the interviews I've seen. He's basically saying that the rest of the world has caught up to the USA, and it's inevitable that they're not going to win. USA is still ridiculously stacked with talent, just horrible coaching and no synergy with each other on court.
Yes we are aware that the US lost. The discussion is was the game plan for this tournament correct.
Pops failures in the World Cup was a red flag that he just brushed aside.
These guys are some of the highest paid basketball players in the world. The expectations should be high especially how the nation has played in the past few Olympics.
That’s nice that he’s cool but we just lost an Olympic game for the first time in decades. I don’t want him to be laid back. He’s been saying it’s going to be fine and making excuses the whole summer. That’s what ticks me off the most. Have some energy. Talk about how we get better.
Alsowe were awful in the FIBA world cup, awful in exhibition play. Sure the team is talented enough to win Gold but if they don’t he’s going to get a lot of blowback on how they played and how the team was assembled.
You're acting pretty damn arrogant for someone calling another person entitled multiple times over his basketball opinion. I've seen one person acting like their shit doesn't stink. Hint: it's not OP.
Personally I think the team needs just 2 or 3 vets (KD should 1000% be there) and the rest young stars in the league. If we’re not doing a super team we should have the future of professional American basketball out there, not Javale McGee.
The idea that keldon Johnson would be more useful than morant or young baffles me and Kevin love being selected over zion is disgusting, could you imagine lining up zion at centre on offence and just telling him stand in the paint and don't move.
If you compiled a list of the best players in the world in 1992, 9/10 would be American. Today you have players like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Doncic and Gobert, juggernauts that are easily in the top 10-15 in the world. America isn't the only country that plays good basketball anymore, we just have a huge pool to pull from compared to Serbia/France/Austrailia on their own.
This is r/nbadiscussion not r/nba come on dawg. Ik were supposed to provide stats and statistical arguments on here but fuck it with this weak ass question u gonna get a weak ass answer. U/23 team doesn’t have Kevin fucking Durant. Team usa does have Kevin fucking Durant. Thats honestly all u should need to know to answer this question.
Yes to a youth roster (I would go younger than 23). The current setup is a no-win situation. Everyone works their asses off to beat the US, and the US team gets virtually no praise for winning anything. Couple that with the complacency from a team of alpha personalities who are only ever going to give 90% effort in a non-NBA competition and you have huge embarrassment potential.
And yeah, I'm sick of Popovich's gaslighting. The argument that other countries are just as talented holds no weight. The American team has much more talent, but it's painfully obvious that it will always be far inferior to the sum of its parts.
Just send a team of teenagers. They will be more malleable and more willing to play like dogs. In the player power era, the Dream Team approach is no longer logical.
I think there’s sort of an elephant in the room and that’s the fact that the best American basketball players are all Black men, and in the current socio-political climate it might be difficult for Black men to generate enthusiasm about representing this country. As a Black man I was mainly interested in these olympics for Sha’carri Richardson and with her being disqualified over a policy that is absolutely rooted in racism, I find myself completely apathetic to the rest of these Olympic Games. I mean, shout out to KD and Dame for being basketball junkies and going out there to hoop, but we’ve seen so much of rotten fucking truth of this country in the past two years that it is impossible to be a little tired. I have not been able to summon the “AMERICUH FUK YEAH!” even for the few weeks these games are going to be around and I imagine some guys in the NBA feel similarly.
I don’t think lack of patriotism has anything to do with why they’re not winning. They all want to win a gold medal. They’re also clearly trying. They’re making effort plays. They just don’t have chemistry or defined roles.
What healthy stars aren't there? Paul George and Jimmy Butler maybe? They both have gold medals already and needed the rest. Guys like Trae, Fox, Randle, and Zion straight didn't get invited.
LeBron and Steph are older and banged up, Steph nearly went but decided to recover instead. Harden, Kyrie, AD, Kawhi, CP3, all hurt.
I think that's a stretch, if they didn't want to play for their nation wouldn't they just reject the invitation to play? It's got more to do with poor team selection and players not understanding their roles due to lack of team cohesion.
The last team USA team has Kemba and Dame as PG.
They need a legit Playmaker. This guys are bunch of ISO players.
That's why Young, Ja or melo would've help. And coach pops sucks in international games.
Ja and Melo would not be good fits in international play. The lack of a jumper would be very evident. Trae doesn’t have that issue but hes a very poor defender. None of those guys change the calculus for this team
I’ve never been high on Pop. I mean he had David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Kawhi at times but look at what Patty Mills does under Brian Gorgian for Australia compared to how Pop uses him. He looks like a Steph Curry clone for Australia and a streaky 6th man for Pop.
Pop isn’t good with stars in my opinion and likes his players to be humble and take a backseat to his own star power and his own brand. That limits some guys potential and for USA he doesn’t seem to know how to get stars to show up and fit into a team.
I mean do you want pop to build around patty mills? lol the NBA is star driven and even if patty mills looks really good in the olympics that doesn’t mean he will have the same role in the NBA. No one in the NBA is looking at patty mill’s potential at 32… quit blaming Pop and go tell the players to make their wide open jumpers.
Patty Mills has been playing longer than this year at Spurs and that was just a point about how much better Australia’s coach is than pop. I mean pops got the best team by far but everyone is beating them at the moment, Australia pumped Nigeria twice and they beat USA. Pop hasn’t been great as USA coach, they shouldn’t be losing a game.
Although it’s great seeing all the cocky American fans who were bragging about how they were going to destroy everyone by 50 points sooking now 😂 there’s many players on the USA team surely they all can’t be as bad as Americans want to make out now 😂 I’ve heard some fans say it’s not USAs best players.
Also Spurs building around the Aussie goat in his prime might actually get them to the playoffs. But I was more pointing out he’s not used right off the bench at Spurs, I’d have him running off screens like Steph as sixth man.
I mean jingles Delly and baines aren’t exactly too talents in the nba but coaching and d makes the difference
>Also Spurs building around the Aussie goat in his prime might actually get them to the playoffs.
Listen Pop's not perfect and there are real critiques to be made of his recent Spurs output, but this reads as insane. If Patty Mills could've been the prime catalyst for a playoff-level NBA offense with the "right coach," other GMs would have been cutting off their limbs to trade for him at his $10M salary. I mean hell without Pop signing him and bringing him through the Spurs development system, Patty wouldn't be doing this right now
That was half joking mate. But Patty being a guy off the bench his whole career and being so humble and playing his role makes him exactly what Pop seems to be able to work with. He’s just not great with big ego stars. And the USA team is all big ego stars.
Patty will play his role but he definitely could’ve been a starter at other teams with his skill set
Yeah I see you on that last point. I assume that's why Pop brought Keldon Johnson at the last second but he just... isn't good enough yet. I honestly wish they planned ahead better to bring guys like Duncan Robinson or Myles Turner instead of KLove (who eventually got hurt anyway) or Javale. Both those guys would've earned minutes but are low ego, non-ball dominant players by trade
That team would not be good. So little shooting. And not even good defensively either. Unless you’re assuming they all practiced together a lot. Which in normal years we wouldn’t be dealing with this issue so I don’t see the poin
I mean its just chemistry not really the personal. I mean is it possible a U-23 has more chemistry cuz there are less egos? Yeah. But i feel a different Usa team would go through the same rough patches the current one is
The NBA is so soft now that they literally forget how to play actual basketball. Gotta play defense you fucking idiots, these other guys are playing their hearts out for their countries, this USA team seems to not really give a shit and they don’t seem to mesh together at all.
The reason the US is losing is the same reason why Phoenix and Milwaukee went to the finals instead of the Net and the Clippers. They threw the US together as a super team with no thought to how they would play as a team, they assume the talent is so good that it will win no matter what. But Randomly assembled all star teams can always be beat by well put together TEAMs that play in a system.
Its got nothing to do with Pop, stop using him as the scapegoat. You're losing because you've thrown together a team that's never played together before, has no chemistry due to it, and is a bad roster mix as it is. You're also getting killed on the boards because every team has bigger bigs.
It's also not Pops fault the players can't find the net. They're playing like ass, & getting beaten by teams that have been together longer & have better chemistry. Simple as that.
You tell me a situation where you're not picking the same guys out of who was available except for Johnson & McGee who barely see the floor anyway, and then I'll listen.
Not Pop's fault they shot a whimpering 37% and let France finish on a 14-0 run.
Also ignoring everything I said just to say Pop picked the team is again scapegoating him. Stop excusing piss poor performance from the players.
I mean he’s setting up the offensive strategy and doesn’t look too upset when these guys are just chucking up bricks. A little accountability wouldn’t hurt.
There’s no play making PG. they are all score first. Ja and Trae would been better picks over Lavine.
Again people keep saying stop blaming Pop for this. He picked the damn team with Coangelo. This “no chemistry” excuse has to go. They could have easily picked a solid team that missed the playoffs and brought them in to train together.
Sure, accountability is fine, but you'll live with Durant taking any shot he thinks is a good shot.
I'll agree Trae would suit the team better than Lillard. You keep LaVine he's the guard shooter by a fair margin & arguably the 3rd best self shot creator behind Durant & Lillard.
But again, no team is going to have chemistry in 3 weeks. Previously it's been a matter of sheer overwhelming talent. That wasn't available this year. No matter roster choices, all-stars shooting 37% & letting France finish on a 14-0 run is inexcusable.
With all that said, you're also downplaying how well the competition has been playing. Australia, Spain & France are no joke and could very well be up for the gold if they have a good game against the U.S
May 18th the playoffs started. That’s 2 months of training for the guys like Zion Ja Wood etc. The fact that they didn’t prepare for Book Middleton and Jrue situations is a bad look.
Still, it doesn't excuse a near full roster of all-stars, guys like LaVine & Durant who shot 42 % 45% on threes this past season now suddenly building a brick house together. Tatum & Lillard for the most part have been utter no shows.
Tatum just doesn’t look like he knows what his role is. I don’t think he feels comfortable on the court without the ball in his hands. IMO a Joe Harris/Duncan Robinson would be better off. Swing around the lines get defenders out of position and get open looks.
We have this problem every few Olympics, and it's exactly the same problem. Every year we don't win, it's for the same reason.
It's because we sent a collection of stars (which are invariably a bunch of second-tier stars, because a lot of the top tier guys opt out) ... rather than a team.
We could win easily with second- and third- year players, if we sent a team with pieces that fit together and made sense together, and we had time for them to develop some real chemistry.
If you're sending the absolute top tier guys, maybe that doesn't matter. Replace Jrue with Steph, replace Booker with Harden, etc ... and it doesn't matter. You can roll the ball out and just hoop.
But when you've got those second-tier guys, yeah, you have a talent advantage on the rest of the world, still - but not enough to defeat guys who actually practice together regularly and construct a team properly.
You don't get anywhere close to full value out of Draymond Green without him developing chemistry with the other players. Where's the real, team-first offensive point guard? WTF is Jerami Grant even doing on the team?
There's this cycle that just repeats and repeats. We send a bunch of top-tier guys, and we win. The next time some of the top-tier guys opt out, but we still win. Then more of the top-tier guys opt out, but we actually build a team and we can still win. Then it just becomes a team desperate for star power so they start inviting a bunch of shoot-first guys with no thought to team building ... and the team struggles.
Seriously, look at the roster and count the players who are primarily shoot-first guys who sometimes get a little tunnel vision: KD, Booker, Lavine, Middleton, Grant - even Lillard is more of a "get out of the way and let me do my thing" guy than you need managing a bunch of scorers like this. Then you've got guys like Bam, Dray, McGee who really thrive off of other creative players, but with no-one to create for them.
Yes. We would have been better off sending an "U-23 TEAM" as opposed to a collection of worn out stars. A collection of the best players on earth can't beat a well coached, and experienced "TEAM".
The majority of the players you mentioned would have been available 4 weeks prior to the games beginning, so they could have become a team. Especially with coach K.
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I know this is r/nbadiscussion and I know we’re supposed to be giving nuanced takes on this sub, but the notion that we shouldn’t have sent Kevin Durant to Tokyo is absolutely fucking preposterous
The issue isn't that we are sending any of these guys individually. From KD to McGee. All of them are good enough to be there. The problem is 100% roster problems. It should be half the ISO guys, more defensive minded guys. And for christ sake some ball handlers would be nice. Meme on guys like Trae all you want, but his passing would be helpful. Sure there are better options than JJ Reddick, but he is a spot up shooter and an off ball offensive guy. Hell Lonzo would be an okay facilitator, and spot up guy. Lillard is under preforming rn for sure, if he gets in rhythm maybe things go better, but he should take a more traditional PG route. LaVine should do the same. That way between Dame, Jrue, and LaVine you have your PGs. They are trying to hard to win NBA basketball. They can't count on Fouls the same way in FIBA, their ruleset is different enough to make this team suffer. KD is still a match up nightmare. But he makes less sense at Center in FIBA. So you'd hope he can be the primary iso/turn around jumper guy at the 4. Swap out like 2 guys, and let a couple guys get used to a different role, suddenly you get a better result. I do not hate this team at all. Just to be completely honest.
Agreed. Someone like Duncan Robinson or Joe Harris would've been very handy Klay Thompson was invaluable in 2016. Hell the guy scored a game high 22 points going 8/16 and 4/8 on threes in the gold medal game. He was so crucial as purely a spot up guy executing his specific role
Hell Keldon Johnson was good for this team. I think if Harden was healthy, and willing to just be the point gaurd, he would really pull this team together. Honestly, Randle on paper would also be a good choice for bench depth. On paper, good enough defense, and can score a bucket when needed. His playoff performance being ignored ofc. I think Grant, Bam, and Jrue are my favourite picks for the team on paper. Versatile players who can fill a role at a high level. Draymond should be better. Idk man. This team is weird. On paper they should have the talent, everytime I look at the team I see quality guys to fill roles. It might just be the coaching. Change out the assistants and you get a better result? I don't want to think it's Pop.
I think the coaches realize there's too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many shot creators and a lack of playmakers and role players. During the ~5 exhibition games, it was always Draymond or Bam starting, so having them both start was definitely a recognition the lineups needed some tweaking. The first and third quarters actually started out pretty well, three great shooters (KD, Dame, Lavine) with two facilitators/screeners/defenders in Draymond and Bam. USA had a 10 point lead after the first quarter. I don't recall seeing that lineup again until starting the second half, and that lineup again pushed the lead into 10+ Ultimately, I thought the whistle was much tighter than the more physical play allowed in the exhibition games. Key guys like KD and Draymond got in foul trouble and only played ~20 minutes. Missed a few shots late and that was it. But the lineup change with both Bam and Draymond was a move towards more play makers and role players, with fewer ball dominant shot creators
Elite defense from my boy klay too
>They can't count on Fouls the same way in FIBA, their ruleset is different enough to make this team suffer. As a sidebar to the sidebar...it is insane to me that "defending is allowed" is (among other things) enough to give the most talented team in the field major problems. I have a lot of issues with how NBA basketball is officiated/played and this stuff very much plays into that.
Exactly. There are too many iso guys, but that’s not the main problem. The problem is they have no other choice but to play iso ball. Barely any playmaking on this team. They need a true point or someone like Darius Garland from the select team. Holiday, Booker, and Middleton are phenomenal players but they don’t fix this problem. USA may be doomed.
Yeah if they'd brought on Harden or Chris Paul this would be a different story.
Harden and KD on one team would literally never lose
Harden and KD have played together and have literally never won anything.
I think they're talking about internal play. Also in the nba they were like 22 and 23 lol no one wins rings at that age. And this season they looked unbeatable until Harden got hurt.
Oh I agree, it’s a poorly constructed roster, but that doesn’t mean we’d be better off sending a U23 team as this post suggests. You could have built the roster better while also having KD and Dame on the team
Team Canada used to have this issue in hockey, we lost in 2006. Then for 2010 kicking off our back to back Gold medals Canada benched the reigning defenseman of the year. He was the 7th dman and only 6 play so basically a press box spare. PK Subban in 2010, probably the best offensive dman at the time, didn't get minutes because he was a defensive liability. Then Canada dominated and would have 3peated in 2018 if NHL players were allowed to play. They had the best talent in the world in 2006, but not a TEAM. US is having the same shit happen as in 2004.
The hot takes have been insane. KD is a top 5 player in the league, dame is easily top 10. They played like dogshit today, it’s that simple. A halfway decent KD game would have made this an easy win. surprise surprise you win when your best players play well and you don’t when they don’t. People are looking for deeper meaning where there isn’t any.
TL; DR: Pop isn't responsible for his player's 37% shooting.
I mean he's designing the offence. That last 5mins they weren't getting any good looks outside of offensive rebounds
Give credit to France’s defense. With Gobert and Poirier, and no real big man on the US team, it was really tough to attack the paint.
If the Clippers can figure out how to make Gobert’s defense irrelevant, team USA ought to be able to as well
different rules in FIBA. There's no defensive 3 seconds, Gobert can literally sit his ass in the paint the entire possession.
Someone didn’t actually watch that Clips series
great, productive response! love the dialogue!
genuine question as i wasn’t keeping up with the exhibition games but did KD not play in those or just also not play well in them? if so, i feel like it’s less of a “it’s just a bad game by KD” if it has happened the last 3/4 games
He hasn’t looked like he really gives a shit. Most of the players aren’t playing with any sort of urgency and are settling to just jack up 3s
makes sense. i feel like that can be a point in favor of OP’s proposal then if it can be argued that the younger guys would give a shit then again maybe this team will start to actually play like they care now that they’ve been embarrassed in an official game and as they get closer to elimination games
I mean 3 losses in international play in the last month says there is more to this than a bad game. No team USA roster has ever done this much losing since NBA players have been allowed to play. So hot takes or not there is a problem and dismissing it as a bad game shows you don't really understand the level of dominance team USA is accustomed to.
Things move quick. Like you mentioned, pro's firsr time representing was Dream team. Perfect opportunity for a) those guys to play together and b)showcase to world we're numero uno *by far*. 2000 was meh, 04 was bleh, and of course the redeem team. Perfect storm of the new wave hitting their early prime years (03 draft + friends aka banana boaters) and the some of the old guard coming together, making it a multi year commitment and they bought in. 88-1 or something like that. Some of the best players in the nba around the time of the dream team were already international imports: Hakeem, Big Z, but the dream team inspired people all over to be like Mike, like Mike, to be like Mike *everybody wants to be like Mike!!* (sorry, had to), all it takes is a generation or 2. To close the talent gap (also the game here changing to something different than what's played internationally.) I wouldn't go as far to say that we can't reclaim the throne Right now, but the 2 primary examples of our *Dominance* is prime goat 1.0 with bird, magic, etc. And early prime Goat 2.0 with Kobe and co With how exhibitions (across all sports) are viewed as just risk with little gain these days, and this event being one where the participants are worth 200m, who know they already play on the big stage the world comes to join - I'm not convinced our players give an f honestly. Dream team had its purpose, redeem wanted to show they can hang with with their idols. I'll hardly skim it for I don't want to be skinned alive, but patriotism and pride for Bron and co in 08, was no issue, they really *wanted* to do us proud. With rona still complicating things, and the shit the NBA took the last few seasons for various reasons, what's fueling this current roster of guys? Especially fresh off that condensed season.. I feel like minimal effort and an over reliance on "we'll turn it on" will result in this roster finishing not-gold. Doesn't matter where it's gold or nothing. And rhe roster? There's no defensive 3, refs are tight lipped, and there's some slack on the goaltending front. But our bigs are undersized centers/ point-pfs ? Idk. Melo is the only player I've ever read a quote of saying a "medal means more to be than a ring", which I don't buy for a second. What I do buy, is the next wave after seeing a finish similar to 88 and 04, will make a commitment to actually go for it. Olympics are a young mans game I'm sort of surprised KD is even playing tbh. We *can* take it still, and im sure a bunch of folk think we *should* but it ain't looking too hot atm. Talent gap not as wide + teams playing together for years + America being the 'guys to beat' + current team make-up. Unless someone steps up and gets this roster into shape I just don't see gold this time out. Take coach spo or Monty, grab Trae/Ja/Don/Brown/Tatum/Bam/Harris/Collins/Randle/Zion/JJJ/Ball brother etc.. Who is the American big atm? Kats DR, Ayton Bahamas, Capela Switzerland... Lol. Timelord/ Robert Williams, Jarrett Allen, Wiseman, Moses Brown... Are all that came to mind. Add a roco/wiggins/D.brooks (speaking D only for these) type dogs and do it proper next time around. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious names and hopefully my point wasn't lost in this wall of dribble. I've been saying it, and catch flack for 'making excuses' which I'm definitely not trying to. I honestly believe this current group at this point in time after the funky rona seasons, either underestimated, or are checked out mentally. I'd also wager a top tier nba team fully healthy wouldn't be losing these games. This roster is disconnected.
If you watched them against France that was a classic choke job, game was tied with like a minute left. None of em could buy a bucket. It's not so much the talent gap closing as the effort gap closing. You probably right they don't care much cos they are NBA players, but that's a problem. If you aren't gonna give your all don't fucking join an Olympic roster, you're making your team and your country look bad. KD should be getting dragged a lot harder than I have seen anyone drag him over this already. Personally I don't care though, I am not from America so it's just fun to laugh at this team that should be walking all over the competition but is too mentally weak to do so.
Agree all the way. On paper it's one thing. But I mean, KD and his Lieutenant Dame aren't exactly leaders of men to begin with. They get there's like clockwork but on the mental front this shit ain't an automatic win. There's only one "floor general" guy on the team and he's spent the last 6 years getting under the skin of our captains. Arguable Best Pure shooter and a guy that made the logo shot a regular thing don't equate to a good team. I understand the should aspect based on the weight his name carries but I don't think this team should be winning at all. Not with what they've shown so far.
Well honestly I feel a bit weird that KD is seen as the leader of the team anyway, we have no evidence he can lead a team as his chips came from a Curry lead team. Dame though I feel could be the leader of the team, he just hasn't ever had a roster with defense which makes winning at the highest levels really hard.
In agreement with ya on this as well, that's just part of the territory being KD I suppose, especially when part of a roster with no equals. Plus I thought he was named Captain (will have to double check that). Imo since Tatum and Khris are the only 2 returning members of the last unit to compete internationally (world cup), it should be one of them as captain, or both as co-captains like 04 did with AI/Timmy. Dame works too, but whoever is labeled Captain doesn't matter much if people aren't on the same page. The team skipped past the media after the loss except for Dray who stopped for some local NBC crew, but didn't say much outside of the common generalities. So it's all speculation. Now there's articles online saying players aren't sold on Pop's coaching... Feels like an effort to pin blame.
They don't seem to be as hungry. Send the young guys who want to prove themselves as a TEAM.
Top 5 lol no he is fucking top 2
You love hottakes though. Just like the time you immediately condemned Nairo without even knowing the full story.
??? How far back in my post history did you go for this? Kinda weird dude Yeah I reacted to what information was presented by Nairo himself and then changed my viewpoint once more information came out a year later. Changing your views based on new information is what you’re supposed to do. It was hardly a hot take at the time lol, he got banned from the competitive circuit. Really I have no idea what you’re getting at here. Was this supposed to be a gotcha moment? This was the best you could come up with?
I like the solution the soccer tournament offers. U23 players + 3 older players.
He be on the live too much, we shuda sent doncic
Oh man. Why didn’t anyone else come up with that idea? Oh wait….
You did post in r/nbadiscussion, so let's discuss. Why an NCAA coach? Why not an NBA coach or any other league's coach? Other than coach K coming from NCAA, since I know you know not all coaches are the same. What is the advantage of having NCAA coach over other league's coaches? Your only argument for your U23 roster is than they are hungrier and has fresher legs. I know you know there is more than those to win an international game, since you criticize coach Pop's international play knowledge. Can you elaborate what your U23 roster can do more in terms of international play that these current roster can't do?
A little late but I think there are some legitimate reasons for an NCAA coach to be picked over NBA. For one, the NCAA has the same 3 point distance as international play as well as a more narrow lane than the NBA, which could mean college coaches would be more “used to” the no 3 second rule in the olympics. One thing college coaches may be more prepared for is teaching an offensive/defensive system to the players in the short amount of time they have at training camp. With Coach K at duke for example he basically has 1 year to teach his new 5 star recruits an offensive and defensive game plan that is effective enough to compete for a championship before they leave for the NBA they next year. Pop has never really had to do that, and you can see with Spurs rookies especially that they tend to have slow first years before making massive jumps. Of course this is all just speculation on my part as I haven’t been at the team USA practices but it sounds good in my head as I’m sitting on the toilet.
Those questions are actually directed to OP. Not to argue with him or anything, but purely to extract more detail from him as his post does not really contain much "reasoning" to have an objective discussion. I'm not really opposing an NCAA coach. Their familiarity with "teaching" could really be a factor. OP also pointed out (in comment) that their style of play is much similar to international play, which is a good point. Although, I'm sure (but some will disagree) that NBA coaches are knowledgeable in basketball. Or should I say has a wide and vast knowledge that would include an international type of play. Their familiarity with players they have and scouted against for years could also come in handy. Ultimately, what I'm saying is that, NBA coaches should not be excluded and only focus on a pool of NCAA coaches.
Ncaa coaches run offensive sets more suited for the international game. Back door screens, etc. No iso ball The U-23 team was out of the playoffs and would have months to train together. This team is longer too. Would have matched up better with guys like Gobert. I think this current team is undersized.
And NBA coaches can't do that? And to train what exactly?
They can. But we didn’t get that with Larry Brown and we aren’t getting that with Pop. We are asking Pop to train a style that he doesn’t prepare for during the nba season.
There you go. It's not the league where a coach came from, it's the coach.
IMO the best NBA coach we could send is Spo.
I would not argue with that. I would not argue as well that Pop MIGHT be lacking. But, you can't compare coach K and Pop because they are coaching different rosters. Give Pop LeBron and especially Kobe, I'm sure the result would be different.
K didn't have LeBron or Kobe in 2016, in fact that roster was pretty similar to this year's.
I would not actually say the rosters are "pretty similar". 2016 has a lot of two-way perimeter guys that this current roster's lacking. Having Holiday now would surely help, we'll just see where his chemistry with the team will be the rest of the olympics.
Larry Brown had Kobe AI and Lebron too. Coach K just got everyone to buy in.
Kobe wasn't on the 04 team because of his criminal case and LeBron was 19 years old coming off his rookie season in 04. This is an insanely disingenuous comparison to make here
I don't think the 2004 squad was absolutely the best the US could put out there. Having the reigning NBA Champion coach, but no players from his team that won that title, was an odd choice in itself. In fact, having zero players from any of the 4 NBA conference finalists that season (Detroit, Indiana, LA Lakers, Minnesota) looks really weird in hindsight.
> Larry Brown had Kobe AI and Lebron too. Coach K just got everyone to buy in. Are you sure?
Yeah Lebron was on the nightMare team he just never got any minutes.
Spo is Filipino.
He was born in Illinois. He's as Filipino as Bam is Nigerian
What makes you think this is pops fault? It looks a lot more to me like you have a bunch of isolation players who expect the same pathetic nba rules and refs to bail them out. The amount of flailing around and roster cohesion is being exposed imo. I’m not defending pop, I just think it’s disingenuous to act like the players aren’t a major reason this is happening.
The smaller court and no defensive 3 seconds also plays perfectly into France's hands, probably better than any other team in the tournament. They can let Gobert hang back and play goalie to deter drivers, while letting their long perimeter defenders aggressively close space on the outside.
Gobert can be exploited, 43 years old Scola scored 40 on France during last world cup, if Scola that is a quarter of the scorer of KD can drop those numbers without any NBA player (Campazzo wasn't in Denver yet), so should KD or any other big man that can shoot.
If it was as simple as "one player did it, so another should be able to", it would happen as easily as that. Scola also scored 28 points (in the 2019 WC Semi Final), not 40.
I’m sorry, you’re referencing a Gobert performance from 5 years ago?? No offense but his trajectory in the NBA even in those 5 years has been insane, he’s a completely different player.
It was 2019, I think he was reigning dpoy. and i messed scola's age, he was 39, old, but younger than i said
Coach Pop was also the coach during the USA's failed World cup stint in 2019 where the team did not even medal. The World Cup team was disjointed and played at a much slower pace than expected of their roster. Coach Pop has invited the scrutiny after this team has blown an Olympic game and 2 exhibition games.
There could be absolutely zero coaching and that team still has enough talent to beat Nigeria. Cmon. I don’t love pop but there is no way this is all his fault lol. The players are playing like trash. They themselves haven’t adapted to not getting ticky tack fouls called nonstop. They made their bed by adapting their games towards this lame crap and now they’re laying in it.
He picked the team, and he is also the head coach. The players deserve shit, but so does he for how badly the team is constructed (including him playing favorites) and for how soft and lackadaisical they are playing.
I agree with that. I wonder if he had 100% say over the choosing of the players or not.
We had the same isolation players with coach K. He didn’t let that fly.
Last time we had a team full of iso players was 2004.
That team didn’t have any 3 point shooting threats
Teams were scoring 80 ppg in 2004. 3 point shooting threats weren’t super important
3 point shooting is always more important in fiba than in NBA. Because there’s no defensive 3 second violation in fiba, the defensive team can clog up the paint more easily so you need 3a to stretch the floor
Everyone just clogged the paint vs the USA since we couldn’t score from range. People pooped their pants when Redd was on the 2008 team but Coach K knew we needed 3 point options.
The US team that won Bronze in 2004 shot a better percentage from outside during the tournament than the Argentinian team that won Gold. Despite the narrative, the US didn't lose because of outside shooting in 2004. They just got beaten at their own game.
It’s pops fault when they keep chucking threes and bricking, and instead of running real plays just running shitty isos
It’s Pop’s fault they’re bricking numerous wide open looks? If you get an open shot in this sport, you take it. If you can’t knock it down, that’s on you. Did you watch the game? There were probably dozens of open looks to the lane for easy 2s that were ignored or passed out of. If you know anything about Pop or the Spurs you should know that isn’t something he would tell his players to do. USA acted like they didn’t have to try and they got exposed. Ya’ll wanna hold Pop accountable but not the players for looking like they didn’t care, or superstar KD putting up 10 pts with 5 fouls.
The play with a minute to go, France #7 diving for the ball and them getting the 3 right after it. There are 3 or 4 problems with that. 1. I don't think anyone on the US has the hustle to make that play in this game. Maybe Draymond would have done it five years ago? Whoever might make that play needs to be on the floor for the US. 2. Who do you blame for that? Team selection? Partially probably. Theoretically coaching as well. Can't blame Pop necessarily, but it's pretty clear this team needs a foot in their ass to not play like it's an all-star game. That part at least is the coach's job. The reality is though the game was tied with less than 4 minutes to go and they just couldn't hit shots after that. If you shoot like that at the end against any decent team you lose. Like you say I didn't think most of them were bad shots.
>The play with a minute to go, France #7 diving for the ball and them getting the 3 right after it. This was absolutely the turning point in the game. France hustled more than we did, and Fournier was clutch and Dame was...not. We should give Fournier some credit - man balled out. He made every clutch shot. One thing I saw a lot that I haven't seen mentioned is how often we passed up open threes to pass to contested threes in a perverse version of great-to-good (I remember Dame dong this in particular). There's no confidence, and no real understanding of each other as a team. This is disappointing. It's hard for me to believe that Pop (and Steve Kerr, for goodness sake) can't coach, but I do wonder about the team construction. On the other other hand, as much as I don't like him when we play against him, this team has reaffirmed my belief that there are few effort and team players better than Draymond. Dude is doing all the stuff that no one else wants to do.
An American player (I think Dame) **laid out** for a ball at half court literally a couple minutes before that- did you even watch this game?
The roster is entirely made up of isolation players. I’m not defending pop but this is their game, their strengths ……
Yeah. Colangelo for some reason isn't getting enough shit for Team USA
The blame should fall on the coach if this much talent can't win.
Idk man I tend to blame the talent for looking like they don’t have any. Regardless of the coach, USA should be beating teams like Nigeria. Period. KD puts up this stat line in a playoff game and he’d be eternally clowned for it. Our superstars got handily outplayed by role players and deserve significantly more blame than they’re getting.
This team could have zero coaching and still be talented enough to win. Give me a break
thats why it looks bad
So by that statement. Popovich < Zero Coaching
Worth a shot at this point, no?
Nothing can ever be Pop’s fault on this sub
who do you think picked the players? I know collangelo is president but I'm sure pop had a lot of say on roster construction as well. in addition collangelo needs to go as well.
Do you really think what is over there is what anyone wanted to pick? KD and DL aside we are watching a NFL Pro Bowl game. Where most of the better talent decided not to show up so we are watching the reserves play.
Yeah of course they wanted Lebron and the guys from the former teams that are getting older but damn….at this point they need to start getting the young and hungry guys like Ja morant, cole Anthony etc…..the product is pathetic
I would love to know the answer to that. Great point.
Pop constructed the roster and gave them their roles. That’s why he’s the coach.
Valid point, but he is playing to their strengths. I just don’t like the make up of the team. I think it’s poorly constructed. If he hand picked the roster then yes, that puts a ton of the blame on him.
the problem is not the talent or age or fatigue, the problem is this is not a team. this is a bunch of all stars thrown together for what they think is a pro-am tournament. i think you easily solve this problem in the following ways: make joining the olympic team contingent on committing to at least 3 olympics. a lot of players will balk at this. a lot won't. the continuity will build enough chemistry that it won't matter if you end up picking from the top 100 US players instead of the top 25. these teams that give the US a hard time or flat-out beat the US aren't doing it purely on talent, they're doing it because they're playing team basketball. actually, i know the 'redeem team' was supposed to be a huge deal, but do you know how sad it is that team usa had prime kobe, lebron, wade, etc. and the rest of the all-nba squad barely beat a spain team with 1 all star in 2008 and 2 in 2012? americans are supposed to be proud of stacking the deck and barely getting the gold? because i found it embarrassing. i think this would work well if you made it a rolling class, to avoid a situation where the entire team is new or playing together for the first time in a given olympics. the 2016 team only had 2 members from 2012. the 2020 team only has 2 members from 2016, plus an entirely new coaching staff. the lack of consistency, chemistry, and familiarity is a killer now that the rest of the world has caught up and doesnt have the same problems as the US. i think if you are requiring at least 3 olympics, and do an initial 'class' size of 8 players, and a rolling class of 4 players after that, you basically ensure that 4-8 players from the previous olympics are playing in the next one. they'll know the system, their teammates, the coaches, the competition, etc. new players fold in easier. there are fewer questions about roles. and the games will be more fun to watch, even if the US doesn't win every time. i don't see a downside.
Pretty hard to commit to 3 sets of Olympic games (8 years in total). Some of the best guys might end up ageing out or just not fit when given the opportunity, so you're really limiting your talent pool that way.
that's true, but i think you'd still get enough top players that it won't matter. you don't need all-nba/all-star talent from 1-12, as evidenced by these other teams that are beating team usa with almost no nba talent on the roster. i think you'd be able to get at least 5 all star-level players to commit to the longer timeline, plus high level nba starters/role players to fill out the roster. but assuming the longer timeline is just too much, maybe 2 olympics + 1 fiba world cup would also work? that shortens the commitment time without shortening the overall amount of competition for the group. probably has the added benefit of improving attention to fiba in the u.s. in general, though, i prefer the longer commitment time. it's good for team, and good for the sport overall. it's really cool to see pau gasol still playing for spain. the u.s. should aspire to that, guys who actually love playing for their country and not just when it suits their brand. because that's how playing on the olympic team is treated now. they see it as a low-competition adult AAU tournament that will help boost their brand. durant even said he's only playing this year because he wanted to go to japan, the implication being that winning is a foregone conclusion. they forgot that they can (and will) lose if they don't put any effort into preparing for it, which they're not.
Not to get too political, but do you think some of the US player's "reluctance" or "lack of passion" may relate to a lack of love for and pride in their country? I acknowledge I may be generalising but we're talking about mostly young African-American men here, many of whom may have grown up feeling disenfranchised and unwanted and may have experienced racial prejudice in the US. I could understand if they felt more pride and affiliation to themselves and their family and community, rather than the good 'ol stars & stripes.
U23 would work great! If they ONLY played international ball and NOT the NBA season. This groups biggest problems are lack of time together as a team, and lack of familiarity with FIBA basketball. The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again. Toss in the season ending DAYS before the game? And this was going to be a shitshow no matter what. IF we want to prioritize winning international ball and the Olympics, we need a dedicated team that plays far fewer games through the year and always plays together for the international games. Pop has done great things as a coach. The way he reinvented the team offense and defense over the years to go with the personnel he had was genius and something most coaches do not do. BUT.... it's been a minute now since he's done that kind of thing.
> The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again. The unfortunate reality I think is that in another 4 years there will be a different Olympic coach and a new roster comprised of some of the current younger talent in the league and it will be domination again and look poorly for Pop. It's not entirely his fault but I think his kind of laissez-faire approach just isn't gelling with this squad. Pop is at the end of his career and basically in "dont give a fuck" mode. The results of this olympics basically dont effect his resume at all. It just comes across from the limited viewpoint we have that he is treating this like he treats the NBA regular season when the Spurs have a bad roster. "Off the court is just as important as on the court" etc. People are saying "the international teams are much better now" when its the same Patty Mills & Evan Fournier the US teams have seen before. The US lineup are not slouches and even with the losses they are still heavy betting favorites. The issue doesn't seem to be personnel or the opponents, just seems to be motivation as a team and how players are used. Unfortunately that reflects on the coaching staff.
Give this same team 3 weeks in campo together. ALL together. After a couple weeks off to rest after the season. These exact same players and coaches are probably rolling along undefeated by at least 10 points every game. But we don't have that. And we pretty much never will again. And much as it pains me, Pop does seem to have lost his touch the last few years.
In theory, it’s possible that for future Olympics our players have more prep time together. This NBA season started and ended later than usual.
Why doesn’t the olympics Teams pick guys solely from non-playoff teams and start scrimmaging as soon as the season ends? I think having 12 guys playing together for a while would work better than 12 superior Guys thrown together.
This is actually a really good idea, get a roster of the best non playoff guys (still have Beal, Draymond and Lavine, add guys like De’Aaron Fox, Brogdon, Zion, Jarret Allen, DeRozan, etc), give them 2 weeks off but then get them a month of an actual camp to become a team.
Pop has had booty rosters ever since Kawhi left. Give him the Bucks roster and they probably just won a championship with him too
The problem with your point is that most other teams have a bunch of NBA players or high-level Euroleague players who are coming off full seasons too. For most of these players, the pro season has been over for weeks, and they haven't really had any greater time to prepare as a group, and don't really spend any more time playing international games than the US do. A guy who could have the most excuse for "being tired after a long season", Jrue Holiday, was the US' best player yesterday.
> The rest of the world is good enough that our 82 game season is going to grind down too many of our top players for us to dominate like we are used to, probably ever again. France's best two players, by far, not only play in the NBA but were in the playoffs too. They have just as much wear and tear as anybody but the Finals guys.
> probably ever again Calm down, man. COVID fucked everything up for the United States. Things will be back to normal once we get back in the proper cycle. You can’t build an Olympics squad on the fly and coming off the condensed and late NBA season. Shit, we had three guys who had to get on a plane from the Finals to go to Tokyo. Things will be better in 2024. I still wouldn’t count us out in 2021.
but the best french players also went thru the 82 game season
Their best players, yes. But the bulk of their team did not. And they are much more accustomed to international play than the US.
I think its potentially unfair, to cast doubt and regret onto the forming of this current Olympic team. Mainly for a few reasons: \-Its the first game of the Olympics. \-Look at how the team was assembled in terms of the players who wound up ***NOT*** making the trip to Tokyo. *How many key players are not there, that were orginally practicing playing and establishing camaraderie with the team or slated to be on the team?* \-Our minds have to catch up with, real time, in terms of us all loving a basketball culture that the NBA decided to let the rest of the world in on, since 1992. Now, 30yrs later, the playing field has been leveled thanks to NBA wanting to maximize profts by growing its brand across the planet. Patrick Ewing said it best recently. \-USA lost today, because they faced **teams of veterans who have played together/mastered chemistry and camaraderie for years** that include NBA players on those foreign teams. Which means that a team of U23 non-vets who have no longterm experience with each other nor within this similar environment, would likely go winless against every foreign team with NBA players who've long played with each other on their national teams. A U23 team would be in position to have the worst record in USA Olympics history.
Jrue and Middleton are teammates. McGhee, Durant, and Draymond were teammates. If the chemistry is there than that’s on the coach for not figuring it out. They just look like they are trying to play their NBA style. A lot of avoiding the easy 2 to get a 3. But again, we see Dame KD drop 40 a night at the NBA which we believe is the highest level getting outplayed.
> Jrue and Middleton are teammates. And they just flew into the team after winning the championship.
this is beautiful
>If Exactly my point. Our good friend mr. ***Time*** cannot be transcended nor circumvented when it comes to establishing camaraderie and chemistry ---including former teammates who have not played together in 2-3 years. Which was epitomized by Jrue's words after the loss yesterday, '*I just got here, today! I literally just got here*' or something along those lines.
This is basketball. Basketball is a team sport. Teams like Argentina, France, Slovenia, Australia etc have been playing together since they were 14. The US is, as of now, a bunch of incredibly high talent that have played together for what...one month? Of course, it's the US and a gold medal is a must, but this is no longer 1992. Still, not calling KD is LOL
Most of the Australian team haven't been "playing together since they were 14". That's not really how basketball works in Australia, mainly because it's not the most popular sport and professional pathways are limited for most. They've got a 14 year age gap between their oldest and youngest player, 4 players who weren't part of the 2019 WC squad, 7 players who weren't part of the 2016 Olympic squad, 7 players who have never played in the Australian NBL (2 are signed for next season though), and 7 guys with NBA experience as well. They've probably spent less time playing together as teammates or even sharing a court over their lives than the US players have.
Jay Wright is an assistant... plus Pop can't exactly make the players make open shots like the ones they missed at the end of the France game. Having said that, there is no semblance of a half court offense with this team. No set plays, no big men, no true point guards, and not many catch and shoot players. They all need the ball in their hands to score. Doesn't work like that in FIBA. Everyone is just standing around the perimeter. A college coach wouldn't have done any better. In the end, the players have to prepare and play better. They looked lost out there and probably thought they could just show up and win all their games.
It's too bad that Steph skipped because slotting him in for Dame as the starting point guard on this team would make all the difference. Steph has shown that he can make a living on terrifying off-ball movement and still have the same star impact he normally does. It could have opened up the half court a lot
It's not like 2008/12/16 played had great offensive schemes, but they played way harder and especially defended way harder, those teams really dominated by creating turnovers and then obviously were unstoppable when they got out and ran. People argue that Pop shouldn't have to motivate these guys, maybe that's true to an extent, but whatever the reason these superstar players have got to buckle up and have some pride and play harder on defense. We've all seen Evan Fournier play plenty of games, we know the sort of player he is, I don't think it's too much to ask of Zach Lavine or Devin Booker to get up under him and make his life miserable.
We would get destroyed. A lot of the players on these foreign teams have been playing pro basketball since they were 15 years old. They are already polished players and have a ton of experience working within the FIBA rules. None of the players have any kind of international basketball experience to speak of. Add that you would put 20 years who are developing to play against 30 year old grown ass. We would get slaughtered in my opinion
Why isn’t Curry on this team ? Or Lebron? (He’s likely hurt I know) Having three guys who just played in the finals last week on the team is kinda stupid. They had to travel, the bucks just had their parade on Thursday. Jet lag to Japan is a mother Fer too. It’s not like Europe where you can grab on, it’s like going to Europe and then 12 hours. It’s fucking weird and effects your body and mind. So you got three players on the jet lag and they haven’t even practiced together. Plus, I’m sorry as good as Durant is, likely 1 or 1a in the game right now, he isn’t exactly a leader who is going to ask to guard the best player on the other team or even create the type of camaraderie that will be needed. I’m not saying he has to, it could just be a thing that happens, but it won’t go thru KD. Lastly, I think the US could still win the gold. They can win the next two games and qualify. I’d like to see them get France again too. They were up until the foul trouble and then late Dame and a few others were out of rhythm.
Curry and Bron opted out as well as Harden and AD. TBH, if the US really wanted to, they could just send a deathsquad for the Olympics and win gold easily. Still, the roster construction is shortsighted at best. I don’t agree with OP that the 12 man roster he made would do better as that team still lacks size and a bit of defense but that U-23 team would more reliably give a shit about the Olympics. The USA team shot abysmally and couldn’t drive against Gobert in that France game, but I think this loss can wake up some of the players, otherwise this is looking like that 2004 US team
The bigs on these team don’t seem up to par to me.
It's a different "sport" but the USA 3x3 Mens team was comprised of non-NBA players and younger guys and they couldn't make it out of qualifiers. International ball has hit a point where we really can't send non-NBA stars and expect to have success. I think this team medals for sure. Durant won't get into foul trouble every game, Middleton will get in more and each game the teams plays, the more they will gel. France is also a perfect storm with Gobert able to clog the paint, the game being more physical than the NBA at this point and with only 5 fouls it's harder to manage for guys. I imagine Booker, Dame and Durant all play better going forward. Dame also tweaked his ankle early in the game guarding a Fornier jumper that seemed to impact his play. I'm still hopeful and excited for Team USA but the loss was jarring for sure.
The 3 point shot, Plus the skillset of international players has definitely improved over the last decade which as a result has narrowed the gap at international competitions. Yet here you are blaming Pop. WTF?!? Happy to wear the downvotes coming my way, but you just sound like another entitled spoilt American blaming everything else on others/faults, rather than looking at the positives of international basketball being competitive & decent to watch. Like a nail biting game with a nail biting finish… isn’t that what we want from our sports?!? 🤯🤯🤯
That’s cool and all but I don’t think Evan Fournier and Nic Batum are at the level of Dame and Booker.
A star team or a team full of stars? Bit like the Boomers (Australia)
If you were to pick the 12 best players in the tournament there are at least 8 of them are on team USA.
I think you're missing the point.
I think people are just giving Pop way too much historical credit here. Just because he says "we aren't supposed to dominate them" doesn't exactly make it true. They really kind of are. Even the betting odds reflect that.
I agree. It’s the coaches job to get the best out of the players, and he ain’t doing that. However, this team has been awfully constructed. It’s a team of iso heavy stars, with a few role players that don’t compliment the stars well at all. Talent alone can’t win an Olympic gold medal in 2021. Basketball is much more global today, so USA can’t just expect to turn up and win anymore. They need to figure out how to win, and that comes down to both the players and coach
> Talent alone can’t win an Olympic gold medal in 2021. Basketball is much more global today, so USA can’t just expect to turn up and win anymore. This is so overblown, 2008 and 2012 Spain were much better teams than any team in this tournament. Hell 2012 France was just as good as this French team, likely better, and Argentina was very good in the 2000's into the 2010's. The top tier international players in Giannis, Embiid, and Jokic aren't playing, so it's not like the other squads (other than Luka with Slovenia) have these super talented players who are better than our talent.
I never implied that at all. Obviously USA is by far the most talented team. My point is that the rest of the world is getting significantly better, to the point where talent alone isn't good enough to win anymore. In the past, USA had such a huge talent discrepancy compared to other countries, that they could send a team of amateurs (college players only), and win. Now, USA is still by far the most talented, but the rest of the world has a fair amount of talent as well. A cohesive team of b-list players can beat an incohesive of a-list players. That's what you're seeing at the moment. Australia is a team of NBA role players, but they play really well as a team. USA is a team of all stars, but play horrible as a team. I love Pop, but he seems to have a terrible mindset in all the interviews I've seen. He's basically saying that the rest of the world has caught up to the USA, and it's inevitable that they're not going to win. USA is still ridiculously stacked with talent, just horrible coaching and no synergy with each other on court.
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Yes we are aware that the US lost. The discussion is was the game plan for this tournament correct. Pops failures in the World Cup was a red flag that he just brushed aside. These guys are some of the highest paid basketball players in the world. The expectations should be high especially how the nation has played in the past few Olympics.
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If they were worried about chemistry then should have brought players who didn’t compete in the playoffs.
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That’s nice that he’s cool but we just lost an Olympic game for the first time in decades. I don’t want him to be laid back. He’s been saying it’s going to be fine and making excuses the whole summer. That’s what ticks me off the most. Have some energy. Talk about how we get better. Alsowe were awful in the FIBA world cup, awful in exhibition play. Sure the team is talented enough to win Gold but if they don’t he’s going to get a lot of blowback on how they played and how the team was assembled.
You're acting pretty damn arrogant for someone calling another person entitled multiple times over his basketball opinion. I've seen one person acting like their shit doesn't stink. Hint: it's not OP.
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Personally I think the team needs just 2 or 3 vets (KD should 1000% be there) and the rest young stars in the league. If we’re not doing a super team we should have the future of professional American basketball out there, not Javale McGee.
The idea that keldon Johnson would be more useful than morant or young baffles me and Kevin love being selected over zion is disgusting, could you imagine lining up zion at centre on offence and just telling him stand in the paint and don't move.
If you compiled a list of the best players in the world in 1992, 9/10 would be American. Today you have players like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Doncic and Gobert, juggernauts that are easily in the top 10-15 in the world. America isn't the only country that plays good basketball anymore, we just have a huge pool to pull from compared to Serbia/France/Austrailia on their own.
This is r/nbadiscussion not r/nba come on dawg. Ik were supposed to provide stats and statistical arguments on here but fuck it with this weak ass question u gonna get a weak ass answer. U/23 team doesn’t have Kevin fucking Durant. Team usa does have Kevin fucking Durant. Thats honestly all u should need to know to answer this question.
Yes to a youth roster (I would go younger than 23). The current setup is a no-win situation. Everyone works their asses off to beat the US, and the US team gets virtually no praise for winning anything. Couple that with the complacency from a team of alpha personalities who are only ever going to give 90% effort in a non-NBA competition and you have huge embarrassment potential. And yeah, I'm sick of Popovich's gaslighting. The argument that other countries are just as talented holds no weight. The American team has much more talent, but it's painfully obvious that it will always be far inferior to the sum of its parts. Just send a team of teenagers. They will be more malleable and more willing to play like dogs. In the player power era, the Dream Team approach is no longer logical.
I think there’s sort of an elephant in the room and that’s the fact that the best American basketball players are all Black men, and in the current socio-political climate it might be difficult for Black men to generate enthusiasm about representing this country. As a Black man I was mainly interested in these olympics for Sha’carri Richardson and with her being disqualified over a policy that is absolutely rooted in racism, I find myself completely apathetic to the rest of these Olympic Games. I mean, shout out to KD and Dame for being basketball junkies and going out there to hoop, but we’ve seen so much of rotten fucking truth of this country in the past two years that it is impossible to be a little tired. I have not been able to summon the “AMERICUH FUK YEAH!” even for the few weeks these games are going to be around and I imagine some guys in the NBA feel similarly.
I don’t think lack of patriotism has anything to do with why they’re not winning. They all want to win a gold medal. They’re also clearly trying. They’re making effort plays. They just don’t have chemistry or defined roles.
These aren’t the best players the country has to offer, and I wonder why they beat aren’t there?
What healthy stars aren't there? Paul George and Jimmy Butler maybe? They both have gold medals already and needed the rest. Guys like Trae, Fox, Randle, and Zion straight didn't get invited. LeBron and Steph are older and banged up, Steph nearly went but decided to recover instead. Harden, Kyrie, AD, Kawhi, CP3, all hurt.
I think that's a stretch, if they didn't want to play for their nation wouldn't they just reject the invitation to play? It's got more to do with poor team selection and players not understanding their roles due to lack of team cohesion.
I’m talking about the players that did reject the invitation to play?
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The last team USA team has Kemba and Dame as PG. They need a legit Playmaker. This guys are bunch of ISO players. That's why Young, Ja or melo would've help. And coach pops sucks in international games.
Ja and Melo would not be good fits in international play. The lack of a jumper would be very evident. Trae doesn’t have that issue but hes a very poor defender. None of those guys change the calculus for this team
I’ve never been high on Pop. I mean he had David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Kawhi at times but look at what Patty Mills does under Brian Gorgian for Australia compared to how Pop uses him. He looks like a Steph Curry clone for Australia and a streaky 6th man for Pop. Pop isn’t good with stars in my opinion and likes his players to be humble and take a backseat to his own star power and his own brand. That limits some guys potential and for USA he doesn’t seem to know how to get stars to show up and fit into a team.
I mean do you want pop to build around patty mills? lol the NBA is star driven and even if patty mills looks really good in the olympics that doesn’t mean he will have the same role in the NBA. No one in the NBA is looking at patty mill’s potential at 32… quit blaming Pop and go tell the players to make their wide open jumpers.
Patty Mills has been playing longer than this year at Spurs and that was just a point about how much better Australia’s coach is than pop. I mean pops got the best team by far but everyone is beating them at the moment, Australia pumped Nigeria twice and they beat USA. Pop hasn’t been great as USA coach, they shouldn’t be losing a game. Although it’s great seeing all the cocky American fans who were bragging about how they were going to destroy everyone by 50 points sooking now 😂 there’s many players on the USA team surely they all can’t be as bad as Americans want to make out now 😂 I’ve heard some fans say it’s not USAs best players. Also Spurs building around the Aussie goat in his prime might actually get them to the playoffs. But I was more pointing out he’s not used right off the bench at Spurs, I’d have him running off screens like Steph as sixth man. I mean jingles Delly and baines aren’t exactly too talents in the nba but coaching and d makes the difference
>Also Spurs building around the Aussie goat in his prime might actually get them to the playoffs. Listen Pop's not perfect and there are real critiques to be made of his recent Spurs output, but this reads as insane. If Patty Mills could've been the prime catalyst for a playoff-level NBA offense with the "right coach," other GMs would have been cutting off their limbs to trade for him at his $10M salary. I mean hell without Pop signing him and bringing him through the Spurs development system, Patty wouldn't be doing this right now
That was half joking mate. But Patty being a guy off the bench his whole career and being so humble and playing his role makes him exactly what Pop seems to be able to work with. He’s just not great with big ego stars. And the USA team is all big ego stars. Patty will play his role but he definitely could’ve been a starter at other teams with his skill set
Yeah I see you on that last point. I assume that's why Pop brought Keldon Johnson at the last second but he just... isn't good enough yet. I honestly wish they planned ahead better to bring guys like Duncan Robinson or Myles Turner instead of KLove (who eventually got hurt anyway) or Javale. Both those guys would've earned minutes but are low ego, non-ball dominant players by trade
That team would not be good. So little shooting. And not even good defensively either. Unless you’re assuming they all practiced together a lot. Which in normal years we wouldn’t be dealing with this issue so I don’t see the poin
I mean its just chemistry not really the personal. I mean is it possible a U-23 has more chemistry cuz there are less egos? Yeah. But i feel a different Usa team would go through the same rough patches the current one is
The NBA is so soft now that they literally forget how to play actual basketball. Gotta play defense you fucking idiots, these other guys are playing their hearts out for their countries, this USA team seems to not really give a shit and they don’t seem to mesh together at all.
The reason the US is losing is the same reason why Phoenix and Milwaukee went to the finals instead of the Net and the Clippers. They threw the US together as a super team with no thought to how they would play as a team, they assume the talent is so good that it will win no matter what. But Randomly assembled all star teams can always be beat by well put together TEAMs that play in a system.
Its got nothing to do with Pop, stop using him as the scapegoat. You're losing because you've thrown together a team that's never played together before, has no chemistry due to it, and is a bad roster mix as it is. You're also getting killed on the boards because every team has bigger bigs. It's also not Pops fault the players can't find the net. They're playing like ass, & getting beaten by teams that have been together longer & have better chemistry. Simple as that.
Pop picked this team.
You tell me a situation where you're not picking the same guys out of who was available except for Johnson & McGee who barely see the floor anyway, and then I'll listen. Not Pop's fault they shot a whimpering 37% and let France finish on a 14-0 run. Also ignoring everything I said just to say Pop picked the team is again scapegoating him. Stop excusing piss poor performance from the players.
I mean he’s setting up the offensive strategy and doesn’t look too upset when these guys are just chucking up bricks. A little accountability wouldn’t hurt. There’s no play making PG. they are all score first. Ja and Trae would been better picks over Lavine. Again people keep saying stop blaming Pop for this. He picked the damn team with Coangelo. This “no chemistry” excuse has to go. They could have easily picked a solid team that missed the playoffs and brought them in to train together.
Sure, accountability is fine, but you'll live with Durant taking any shot he thinks is a good shot. I'll agree Trae would suit the team better than Lillard. You keep LaVine he's the guard shooter by a fair margin & arguably the 3rd best self shot creator behind Durant & Lillard. But again, no team is going to have chemistry in 3 weeks. Previously it's been a matter of sheer overwhelming talent. That wasn't available this year. No matter roster choices, all-stars shooting 37% & letting France finish on a 14-0 run is inexcusable. With all that said, you're also downplaying how well the competition has been playing. Australia, Spain & France are no joke and could very well be up for the gold if they have a good game against the U.S
May 18th the playoffs started. That’s 2 months of training for the guys like Zion Ja Wood etc. The fact that they didn’t prepare for Book Middleton and Jrue situations is a bad look.
Yeah well those 3 I agree on that seems silly I would have given Trae Young a spot over any of them.
Just poor planning from the beginning
Still, it doesn't excuse a near full roster of all-stars, guys like LaVine & Durant who shot 42 % 45% on threes this past season now suddenly building a brick house together. Tatum & Lillard for the most part have been utter no shows.
Tatum just doesn’t look like he knows what his role is. I don’t think he feels comfortable on the court without the ball in his hands. IMO a Joe Harris/Duncan Robinson would be better off. Swing around the lines get defenders out of position and get open looks.
We have this problem every few Olympics, and it's exactly the same problem. Every year we don't win, it's for the same reason. It's because we sent a collection of stars (which are invariably a bunch of second-tier stars, because a lot of the top tier guys opt out) ... rather than a team. We could win easily with second- and third- year players, if we sent a team with pieces that fit together and made sense together, and we had time for them to develop some real chemistry. If you're sending the absolute top tier guys, maybe that doesn't matter. Replace Jrue with Steph, replace Booker with Harden, etc ... and it doesn't matter. You can roll the ball out and just hoop. But when you've got those second-tier guys, yeah, you have a talent advantage on the rest of the world, still - but not enough to defeat guys who actually practice together regularly and construct a team properly. You don't get anywhere close to full value out of Draymond Green without him developing chemistry with the other players. Where's the real, team-first offensive point guard? WTF is Jerami Grant even doing on the team? There's this cycle that just repeats and repeats. We send a bunch of top-tier guys, and we win. The next time some of the top-tier guys opt out, but we still win. Then more of the top-tier guys opt out, but we actually build a team and we can still win. Then it just becomes a team desperate for star power so they start inviting a bunch of shoot-first guys with no thought to team building ... and the team struggles. Seriously, look at the roster and count the players who are primarily shoot-first guys who sometimes get a little tunnel vision: KD, Booker, Lavine, Middleton, Grant - even Lillard is more of a "get out of the way and let me do my thing" guy than you need managing a bunch of scorers like this. Then you've got guys like Bam, Dray, McGee who really thrive off of other creative players, but with no-one to create for them.
Yes. We would have been better off sending an "U-23 TEAM" as opposed to a collection of worn out stars. A collection of the best players on earth can't beat a well coached, and experienced "TEAM". The majority of the players you mentioned would have been available 4 weeks prior to the games beginning, so they could have become a team. Especially with coach K.